Author Topic: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills  (Read 12293 times)

Torran

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 375
Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« on: June 28, 2017, 05:19:31 AM »
Not sure if anyone has posted on this before, but, just gonna leave this dumpster fire here.

"I have a safe in my house where I keep a lot of my gold and silver. If I ever get the feeling that I don’t have money, I will go and look in the safe and realise, “Oh, I do have money.”  "

http://www.mamamia.com.au/how-to-pay-off-debt-2/


doublethinkmoney

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 80
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 05:38:22 AM »
I'll admit I liked this part:

"People say, “I’ve got bills to pay! How can I put away 10 per cent of my income? I have to pay the bills first.” But, here’s the thing: if you pay your bills first, you will always have more bills. When you pay the bills first, the universe says, “Oh, okay. This person wishes to honour their bills. Let’s give them some more bills.” If you honour yourself by setting aside 10 per cent first, the universe says, “Oh, they are willing to honour themselves. They are willing to have more,” and it responds to that. It gives you more."

I got lost after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aminul

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 05:58:30 AM »
I'll admit I liked this part:

"People say, “I’ve got bills to pay! How can I put away 10 per cent of my income? I have to pay the bills first.” But, here’s the thing: if you pay your bills first, you will always have more bills. When you pay the bills first, the universe says, “Oh, okay. This person wishes to honour their bills. Let’s give them some more bills.” If you honour yourself by setting aside 10 per cent first, the universe says, “Oh, they are willing to honour themselves. They are willing to have more,” and it responds to that. It gives you more."

I got lost after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I knew it was the Universe's fault for sending me bills for the giant SUV in the driveway!  And for cable TV.  And for the kitchen renos.  I mean, who else's fault would it be?

Forever Wednesday

  • Guest
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 06:41:17 AM »
Very interested to know how the author managed to clear $187K of debt based on the advice in this article...

Quote
Tool #2 for having money: carry around the amount of cash you think a rich person would carry.

How different would you feel about your life if you saw a big wad of cash every time you opened your wallet or purse instead of a lot of blank space and some scrunched up receipts? What if you enjoyed having money in there? Carry around the amount of cash that you think a wealthy person would carry.


WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1525
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 06:49:35 AM »
All the talk about "Energy" and the "Universe" providing for you reminds me of this skit with Bill Nye from Amy Schumer's show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eqCaiwmr_M
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 06:52:45 AM by WhiteTrashCash »

Saskatchewstachian

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 186
  • Age: 28
  • Location: SK
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 08:17:46 AM »
Made it surprisingly far into the article then hit this gem and had to close the tab.

"At one point, the balance due on one of my credit cards was extremely high. I had three times the amount due in my 10 per cent account, so I knew I could pay off the balance on my card if I chose to. I did not do that.

Instead I looked at what energy that would create for me if I used the money in my 10 per cent account. I got the sense of that energy, and then I looked at what it would create if I did not do that and instead demanded that I create and generate the money to pay off the credit cards. For me, that second energy of creating more to pay off the cards felt like a lot more fun.
"

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 08:45:35 AM »
I'll admit I liked this part:

"People say, “I’ve got bills to pay! How can I put away 10 per cent of my income? I have to pay the bills first.” But, here’s the thing: if you pay your bills first, you will always have more bills. When you pay the bills first, the universe says, “Oh, okay. This person wishes to honour their bills. Let’s give them some more bills.” If you honour yourself by setting aside 10 per cent first, the universe says, “Oh, they are willing to honour themselves. They are willing to have more,” and it responds to that. It gives you more."
Yeah, I agree that's the best part:  I don't care if my bills are late, my credit score is in the toilet, and my interest is building ... I am honoring myself. 

I found this so hilarious that I poked around the internet and read several articles on this woman.  In one article she even admits that her philosophies cannot be supported mathematically ... yet if you look at Amazon, her books have super high ratings!  Someone believes this! 

For me, that second energy of creating more to pay off the cards felt like a lot more fun.[/i]"
Well, that's what really matters in terms of managing your financial assets.  Fun. 

PloddingInsight

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 308
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 09:12:02 AM »
Based on the topic title I was expecting this to be about burying a bunch of gold somewhere and then declaring bankruptcy.  I'm disappointed.  I was expecting a good story.

Laura33

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2215
  • Location: Mid-Atlantic
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 09:28:15 AM »
Made it surprisingly far into the article then hit this gem and had to close the tab.

"At one point, the balance due on one of my credit cards was extremely high. I had three times the amount due in my 10 per cent account, so I knew I could pay off the balance on my card if I chose to. I did not do that.

Instead I looked at what energy that would create for me if I used the money in my 10 per cent account. I got the sense of that energy, and then I looked at what it would create if I did not do that and instead demanded that I create and generate the money to pay off the credit cards. For me, that second energy of creating more to pay off the cards felt like a lot more fun.
"

I think her brilliance comes in cloaking basic stuff in new-agey language and making it all sound special.  Basically, what she is saying is, "hmm, I spent a buttload of money and then had to figure out whether I should pay it out of savings or hustle to earn more money, so I took option 2."  But no one would buy that book.  Ergo, add a bunch of mystical woo-woo to make it sound like the Universe just wanted me to be rich [note that she doesn't specify what boring work-type thing she actually did to "create" the extra money, because where's the fun in that?].

Now, buying precious metals and antiques, that's just stupid. 

Dezrah

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 09:44:42 AM »
I'm actually a big fan of the "pay myself first" strategy.

BUT that assumes you start from zero, have a job that pays enough to cover your lights, food, shelter basics, you "pay yourself", and THEN you choose things like cars, cable, fancy clothes, etc without going into debt. 

This woman's thinking is so backwards and actively harmful for anyone who is already bad with money.  People who are good with money with see through her crap.

slugline

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1157
  • Location: Houston, TX USA
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2017, 09:47:51 AM »
Quote
Simone is the founder of Joy of Business as well as the Worldwide Coordinator for Access Consciousness® which is now in 170+ countries.

Wow -- the piece linked by OP merely scratches the surface.
 There's an entire cult/religion/philosophy rabbit hole behind this "Access Consciousness" thing!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 10:11:41 AM by slugline »

doublethinkmoney

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 80
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2017, 09:52:16 AM »
I'll admit I liked this part:

"People say, “I’ve got bills to pay! How can I put away 10 per cent of my income? I have to pay the bills first.” But, here’s the thing: if you pay your bills first, you will always have more bills. When you pay the bills first, the universe says, “Oh, okay. This person wishes to honour their bills. Let’s give them some more bills.” If you honour yourself by setting aside 10 per cent first, the universe says, “Oh, they are willing to honour themselves. They are willing to have more,” and it responds to that. It gives you more."

I got lost after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I knew it was the Universe's fault for sending me bills for the giant SUV in the driveway!  And for cable TV.  And for the kitchen renos.  I mean, who else's fault would it be?
That's not what the point was. The point is people will always have bills to pay and they see it as a reason they can't save. They have to start saving and paying themselves  first, a little Percocet stashed away. Get that little amount growing now and then pay all your bills. That way you are starting on a path to saving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

doublethinkmoney

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 80
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2017, 10:02:08 AM »
There are some good points in there:

People make smarter decisions when they FEEL secure. A little money in the bank helps people feel that way. They stop operating from fear and a sensing of drowning which is never a good way to make smart long term decisions.

Having cash in your wallet makes you less likely to spend money bc you can see it leave. You value it more bc it's not this arbitrary number in your bank account. You can see it, feel it and value it more.

And I agree with the concept of not just paying off cc debt with money you have in the bank. Why? It's easy to just throw the balance over and then rack it right back up. It's better to bust your ass and get it paid off. Less likely to rack it up again because it took a lot of work focused directly on paying it off and realizing you created that problem.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2017, 10:23:46 AM »
All the talk about "Energy" and the "Universe" providing for you reminds me of this skit with Bill Nye from Amy Schumer's show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eqCaiwmr_M

Bill Nye dropped an F-bomb and I swooned.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1787
  • Age: 39
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2017, 10:44:44 AM »
Managed to read the entire thing and while parts are very easy to make fun of I think the message is that you need to think about money.  For some people having a wad of cash on them would help them think.  Ramsay's 'debt snowball' is mathematically wrong but the physiology parts make it work for some people.  The author here is trying to show how you might become happy or at least feel constrained/worried about money not how you can FIRE. 

ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4180
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • Insert Snappy Title Here (Journal)
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2017, 10:55:16 AM »
This thread gets me wondering how much cash a rich person would have in his or her wallet? For that matter, what is a rich person? Our household net worth is over $1M, so maybe I count. I usually have between $15-50 in my wallet thanks to my husband who periodically hands me cash (my "pin money" I love to call it). What do you think real rich people carry around?

dogboyslim

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2017, 11:48:50 AM »
This thread gets me wondering how much cash a rich person would have in his or her wallet? For that matter, what is a rich person? Our household net worth is over $1M, so maybe I count. I usually have between $15-50 in my wallet thanks to my husband who periodically hands me cash (my "pin money" I love to call it). What do you think real rich people carry around?

I'm going to define "rich" as all the suburban white collar folks that live around me (I'm including myself).  Whenever we are going out, pretty much no one has more than $20-$30 cash.  Everything is plastic now.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1787
  • Age: 39
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2017, 12:20:47 PM »
This thread gets me wondering how much cash a rich person would have in his or her wallet? For that matter, what is a rich person? Our household net worth is over $1M, so maybe I count. I usually have between $15-50 in my wallet thanks to my husband who periodically hands me cash (my "pin money" I love to call it). What do you think real rich people carry around?

I'm going to define "rich" as all the suburban white collar folks that live around me (I'm including myself).  Whenever we are going out, pretty much no one has more than $20-$30 cash.  Everything is plastic now.

Extending that a little meteorically to what is in cash within a checking account the survives I have seen here in the forums say most of us keep 500$-2k$ 'on us in cash'.

By yeah I am not sure how much I have on me in cash right now, 50$? and is only that high as someone paid me back in cash a few weeks ago.

Gondolin

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 549
  • Location: Northern VA
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2017, 12:25:55 PM »
Quote
I think her brilliance comes in cloaking basic stuff in new-agey language and making it all sound special

But these "The Secret" style "believe and the universe will provide" tracts are a dime a dozen! It's
 even worse now that one can blog about it.

All this sort of quasi-spiritual nonsense makes me barf - though with this one I managed to keep it in my mouth since it has some concepts right and didn't completely abdicate personal agency.


Kaydedid

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 214
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2017, 01:33:00 PM »
The only people I know who carry around large amounts of cash are people who are paid under the table.  They pay for everything in cash either to avoid a paper trail or because they are unable to use banking/credit services (ie here illegally).  They are, by and large, rather poor.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


ysette9

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4180
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • Insert Snappy Title Here (Journal)
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2017, 05:03:53 PM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.

gooki

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2357
  • Location: NZ
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2017, 12:01:10 AM »
Drug dealers can be financially savvy.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2017, 12:07:49 AM »
Drug dealers can be financially savvy.

I think I may have read in one of those Freakonomics books that most garden-variety drug dealers make less than minimum wage and live with their mothers or their girlfriends. Higher up on the food chain I think they do better but there are of course risks.

Mezzie

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 818
    • Mezzie Learns
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2017, 06:39:47 AM »
Drug dealers can be financially savvy.

I think I may have read in one of those Freakonomics books that most garden-variety drug dealers make less than minimum wage and live with their mothers or their girlfriends. Higher up on the food chain I think they do better but there are of course risks.

When I read that book, I got the idea that drug dealing wasn't entirely unlike multi-level mrketing

WhiteTrashCash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1525
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2017, 06:48:57 AM »
Drug dealers can be financially savvy.

I think I may have read in one of those Freakonomics books that most garden-variety drug dealers make less than minimum wage and live with their mothers or their girlfriends. Higher up on the food chain I think they do better but there are of course risks.

When I read that book, I got the idea that drug dealing wasn't entirely unlike multi-level mrketing

I just read that book and that chapter explained the appeal of drug-dealing by comparing it to a Wisconsin farm girl moving to Hollywood in the hopes of making it big as an actress. There is a (slim) chance of moving up in the drug gang and making big money -- just as theoretically the farm girl could end up becoming the next Marilyn Monroe -- but most people in the occupation make something like $3.50/hr and live with their mothers -- just like most actors really make their living as servers at restaurants.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1147
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2017, 09:07:06 AM »
I'll admit I liked this part:

"People say, “I’ve got bills to pay! How can I put away 10 per cent of my income? I have to pay the bills first.” But, here’s the thing: if you pay your bills first, you will always have more bills. When you pay the bills first, the universe says, “Oh, okay. This person wishes to honour their bills. Let’s give them some more bills.” If you honour yourself by setting aside 10 per cent first, the universe says, “Oh, they are willing to honour themselves. They are willing to have more,” and it responds to that. It gives you more."

I got lost after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alternative - if you don't pay your bills at all, you will pile up interest, late fees, etc.  The "universe" has nothing to do with it.  Are you using a good or service, like electricity, natural gas, or internet?  You have to pay for it.  Putting it off will only make it worse.  The "universe" doesn't give a **** what order you pay it.  The provider or lender just cares about getting paid on time.  If you don't, say hello to a much larger bill the following month.  The "universe" doesn't give you more bills the following month if you pay them first - the provider will continue to bill you at the agreed-upon rate (if they're lawful) until you cease service.  That's it.  This isn't hard.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2017, 09:51:37 AM »
I'm actually a big fan of the "pay myself first" strategy.

BUT that assumes you start from zero, have a job that pays enough to cover your lights, food, shelter basics, you "pay yourself", and THEN you choose things like cars, cable, fancy clothes, etc without going into debt. 

This woman's thinking is so backwards and actively harmful for anyone who is already bad with money.  People who are good with money with see through her crap.
Yeah, and that's one reason her message is so damaging to people who are already bad with money:  The idea of "paying yourself first" is good ... that is, the idea of saving off the TOP of your paycheck instead of hoping something's left at the end of the month is GOOD.  So by twisting that good advice slightly, allowing it to sound kind of like something good people've heard before ... she's confusing people who are already economically-challenged.

That's not what the point was. The point is people will always have bills to pay and they see it as a reason they can't save. They have to start saving and paying themselves  first, a little Percocet stashed away. Get that little amount growing now and then pay all your bills. That way you are starting on a path to saving.
No, she's not starting anyone on a path to healthy saving.  If you owe money and interest is piling up, putting away money earmarked for gold and antique jewelry is just plain stupid. 

This thread gets me wondering how much cash a rich person would have in his or her wallet? For that matter, what is a rich person? Our household net worth is over $1M, so maybe I count. I usually have between $15-50 in my wallet thanks to my husband who periodically hands me cash (my "pin money" I love to call it). What do you think real rich people carry around?
I am an actual rich person, and I have less than $30 in my wallet right now.  I can't fathom at all her concept of carrying money making you "aware" of your money at all times.  I'm quite aware of how much is in my checking account, how much I've charged this month on my credit card ... I don't need to carry cash to do that.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2017, 09:53:33 AM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.
Yes, two things I've noticed in my high school classroom:  The poor kids (i.e., the free lunch crowd) likes to show off a wad of cash.  And the girls who come from poor families always have really nice salon-done nails ... not just basic nice color, but airbrushed nails or little jewels encrusted in the polish. 

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 10:18:03 AM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.
Yes, two things I've noticed in my high school classroom:  The poor kids (i.e., the free lunch crowd) likes to show off a wad of cash.  And the girls who come from poor families always have really nice salon-done nails ... not just basic nice color, but airbrushed nails or little jewels encrusted in the polish.

I've been unable to break my daughter's fascination with $70 manicures that look like something out of a Lady Gaga performance. Nobody can afford such things every few weeks, unless it's their only luxury and they don't do anything else.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1787
  • Age: 39
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2017, 12:01:43 PM »
MrsPete: The author did half in a sort of not really manner say when her spending + 10% self-pay was less than her income she aka The Universe went out and made more money.  This point should have been made much clearer by her.  Yes over all the way she delivers her message is bad.  But I can see how for some people having a wad of cash would remove the need for displays of wealth thereby reducing over all spending.  There might not be sound logic to it but if it works... And even if it worked it could cause someones net-worth to drop even more for a few months until the spending was cut to accommodate the 10%. 

Dezrah

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 456
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2017, 07:37:35 AM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.

I will add a counter to this.  There's a family friend who is the second generation owner and CEO of a manufacturing company.  His net worth is easily in the 10's of millions, if not 100's.  He carries around a HUGE wad of cash with him.  Pays for everything with cash.

But, he does this because he firmly believes in controlling his privacy.  He doesn't like that credit card companies can buy and sell information on you and your spending habits or turn it over to the government.  If he's going to allow those kinds of records, it better be for a damn good reason; cash back and travel points alone just aren't worth it to him.

I learned about this habit quite some time ago, probably post-Gmail, pre-Facebook.  I'm curious how he chooses to operate in a Big Data economy. 

paddedhat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2233
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2017, 11:47:39 AM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.

Generally, it's probably a fair statement. When I first started in the contracting business, in the late eighties, here in rural PA. there were still a few old timers, typically very successful self employed types, who were locals for many generations, that operated on a cash only basis. Need a new pickup? Settle on a price, then come back the next day with a paper sack full of hundreds. The great part was, once they trusted you, you had unlimited credit. If a guy like this was doing $20K in excavating and septic work for you, you didn't sign a contract, agree to installments, or any of that stuff, he did the work, and you paid in full at the end. I recently moved to the middle of Amish country and now do business with many places that are cash only. Much of our food, hardware, tools and gardening supplies come from places where there is no electric in the building and you better have cash.

cloudsail

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2017, 01:50:46 PM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.
Yes, two things I've noticed in my high school classroom:  The poor kids (i.e., the free lunch crowd) likes to show off a wad of cash.  And the girls who come from poor families always have really nice salon-done nails ... not just basic nice color, but airbrushed nails or little jewels encrusted in the polish.

I've been unable to break my daughter's fascination with $70 manicures that look like something out of a Lady Gaga performance. Nobody can afford such things every few weeks, unless it's their only luxury and they don't do anything else.

Hijiacking thread....

GrimSqueaker, I've read a few of your posts about your teenage daughter's lack of financial sense, and as a parent myself, was curious about what theories you might have about what contributed to her current mindset. Please don't take this at ALL to be any sort of criticism about your parenting.

My kids are still very young, and I have watched children grow up in various different types of households and some of their money values don't seem to reflect at all those of their parents. It makes me wonder how much of it is nature vs nurture.

Take for example the daughter of a friend of a friend. Parents live in China, solidly middle class, very frugal family. Daughter is in Canada getting her masters. She tells her parents that Edmonton is very cold in the winter, and she can't find quality boots and coat for less than $3000. Three thousand dollars. OMG. The parents don't really know how much stuff costs in Canada and were asking their friends, because it's a fricking huge amount of money.

On the other side, my little brother was brought up without my parents really trying to teach him anything about money, or denying him stuff that he wanted. We weren't rich, of course, but small toys, video games, etc. And as a child he was spendy and spoiled. But as he grew into an adult he seemed to have just acquired financial sense on his own. He worked his butt off as a TA in college to pay for his tuition and living expenses. He shared a tiny run-down apartment in a not-so-nice part of town with his girlfriend. He isn't Mustachian at all, but he gets luxury vs necessity and actively looks for ways to save money and cut down costs.

I've seen kids grow up with parents who are very strict about money feel denied and try to make up for everything that they didn't get to have as children. I've also seen the opposite. It just seems like such a fine line to walk, and at least part of it seems to depend on the child's own personality.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2017, 03:04:51 PM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.
Yes, two things I've noticed in my high school classroom:  The poor kids (i.e., the free lunch crowd) likes to show off a wad of cash.  And the girls who come from poor families always have really nice salon-done nails ... not just basic nice color, but airbrushed nails or little jewels encrusted in the polish.

I've been unable to break my daughter's fascination with $70 manicures that look like something out of a Lady Gaga performance. Nobody can afford such things every few weeks, unless it's their only luxury and they don't do anything else.

Hijiacking thread....

GrimSqueaker, I've read a few of your posts about your teenage daughter's lack of financial sense, and as a parent myself, was curious about what theories you might have about what contributed to her current mindset. Please don't take this at ALL to be any sort of criticism about your parenting.

My kids are still very young, and I have watched children grow up in various different types of households and some of their money values don't seem to reflect at all those of their parents. It makes me wonder how much of it is nature vs nurture.

Take for example the daughter of a friend of a friend. Parents live in China, solidly middle class, very frugal family. Daughter is in Canada getting her masters. She tells her parents that Edmonton is very cold in the winter, and she can't find quality boots and coat for less than $3000. Three thousand dollars. OMG. The parents don't really know how much stuff costs in Canada and were asking their friends, because it's a fricking huge amount of money.

On the other side, my little brother was brought up without my parents really trying to teach him anything about money, or denying him stuff that he wanted. We weren't rich, of course, but small toys, video games, etc. And as a child he was spendy and spoiled. But as he grew into an adult he seemed to have just acquired financial sense on his own. He worked his butt off as a TA in college to pay for his tuition and living expenses. He shared a tiny run-down apartment in a not-so-nice part of town with his girlfriend. He isn't Mustachian at all, but he gets luxury vs necessity and actively looks for ways to save money and cut down costs.

I've seen kids grow up with parents who are very strict about money feel denied and try to make up for everything that they didn't get to have as children. I've also seen the opposite. It just seems like such a fine line to walk, and at least part of it seems to depend on the child's own personality.

I got her at age 15 1/2 out of the foster care system, where she'd been since she was 9. That will scramble anybody's class perceptions and development. It's been a little less than two years, and she can now read at grade level (up from grade 2), do basic math, and is an excellent driver. The money sense is coming along at a slower pace, and I despair of ever getting her a basic knowledge of aesthetics.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 03:20:09 PM by TheGrimSqueaker »

Ann

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 225
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2017, 04:45:32 PM »
. . . I can see how for some people having a wad of cash would remove the need for displays of wealth thereby reducing over all spending.  There might not be sound logic to it but if it works...
OK, thank you for purposing that perspective.  For me, if I have cash in my wallet it is a good as gone.  I track my spending with an Excel spread sheet.  Cash is harder to track than credit cards, so I just log it when it is withdrawn.  Therefore, cash is already "spent" and under the radar.  So I don't feel bad about spending it on something stupid . . . in my mixed-up way, I don't hold myself accountable for it because I don't have to log it later.

Obviously, that is just my own little system and most people don't log their daily spending (and those that do probably use a slightly different system).

Missy B

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 165
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2017, 05:11:51 PM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.

I will add a counter to this.  There's a family friend who is the second generation owner and CEO of a manufacturing company.  His net worth is easily in the 10's of millions, if not 100's.  He carries around a HUGE wad of cash with him.  Pays for everything with cash.

But, he does this because he firmly believes in controlling his privacy.  He doesn't like that credit card companies can buy and sell information on you and your spending habits or turn it over to the government.  If he's going to allow those kinds of records, it better be for a damn good reason; cash back and travel points alone just aren't worth it to him.

I learned about this habit quite some time ago, probably post-Gmail, pre-Facebook.  I'm curious how he chooses to operate in a Big Data economy.

The richest guy I knew personally always had a lot of cash. He was owns-two-airplanes rich. I don't know what his reasons were, and he certainly had credit cards too.
Personally, I just like having cash. Makes me feel wealthy.

Drifterrider

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1119
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2017, 08:21:46 PM »
I am my first bill to pay.

I learned at a very early age to pay myself first.  Always first.
I also learned I could make money on my money.  That was an eye opener for a seven year old :)

cloudsail

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2017, 08:40:45 PM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.
Yes, two things I've noticed in my high school classroom:  The poor kids (i.e., the free lunch crowd) likes to show off a wad of cash.  And the girls who come from poor families always have really nice salon-done nails ... not just basic nice color, but airbrushed nails or little jewels encrusted in the polish.

I've been unable to break my daughter's fascination with $70 manicures that look like something out of a Lady Gaga performance. Nobody can afford such things every few weeks, unless it's their only luxury and they don't do anything else.

Hijiacking thread....

GrimSqueaker, I've read a few of your posts about your teenage daughter's lack of financial sense, and as a parent myself, was curious about what theories you might have about what contributed to her current mindset. Please don't take this at ALL to be any sort of criticism about your parenting.

My kids are still very young, and I have watched children grow up in various different types of households and some of their money values don't seem to reflect at all those of their parents. It makes me wonder how much of it is nature vs nurture.

Take for example the daughter of a friend of a friend. Parents live in China, solidly middle class, very frugal family. Daughter is in Canada getting her masters. She tells her parents that Edmonton is very cold in the winter, and she can't find quality boots and coat for less than $3000. Three thousand dollars. OMG. The parents don't really know how much stuff costs in Canada and were asking their friends, because it's a fricking huge amount of money.

On the other side, my little brother was brought up without my parents really trying to teach him anything about money, or denying him stuff that he wanted. We weren't rich, of course, but small toys, video games, etc. And as a child he was spendy and spoiled. But as he grew into an adult he seemed to have just acquired financial sense on his own. He worked his butt off as a TA in college to pay for his tuition and living expenses. He shared a tiny run-down apartment in a not-so-nice part of town with his girlfriend. He isn't Mustachian at all, but he gets luxury vs necessity and actively looks for ways to save money and cut down costs.

I've seen kids grow up with parents who are very strict about money feel denied and try to make up for everything that they didn't get to have as children. I've also seen the opposite. It just seems like such a fine line to walk, and at least part of it seems to depend on the child's own personality.

I got her at age 15 1/2 out of the foster care system, where she'd been since she was 9. That will scramble anybody's class perceptions and development. It's been a little less than two years, and she can now read at grade level (up from grade 2), do basic math, and is an excellent driver. The money sense is coming along at a slower pace, and I despair of ever getting her a basic knowledge of aesthetics.

Ah, that makes sense. Kudos to you for having the compassion, patience and generosity to take on such a daunting task.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2017, 10:52:58 PM »
Ah, that makes sense. Kudos to you for having the compassion, patience and generosity to take on such a daunting task.

Thanks, but I don't really have those virtues. What I do have is an immense ego, a thick skin, and a committed sense of class superiority. My sweet daughter, meanwhile, could work for the CIA right this minute if they weren't so hung up on university degrees. It's one of the things I like about her.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2017, 08:39:06 AM »
I've been unable to break my daughter's fascination with $70 manicures that look like something out of a Lady Gaga performance. Nobody can afford such things every few weeks, unless it's their only luxury and they don't do anything else.
Several thoughts: 

- You're a saint for taking that child out of that situation; you're a double saint for bringing her academics up to par.  Your actions will carry ripples for generations; her life is better, her children's lives will be better, and society will be better.  You've made an inspiring choice. 

- When my kids wanted to spend on something foolish (Look, Mom, these $80 jeans are on sale for only $50!") I often offered to pay what I would've paid anyway and let them pay the difference (You do need jeans, and I'm willing to pay $20 a pair.  I'll give you the $20, and you can pay the $30 out of your pocket.).  In this case, maybe you could offer to buy her a bottle of polish for $5 instead of paying the normal $30 for a manicure, especially instead of paying $70 (is it really that much?) for the over-the-top manicure.  I also helped my kids "visualize" the cost of an item by figuring out how many hours they'd have to work to pay for that item.  As teens, they were so focused on what they wanted that they wouldn't listen to the idea of college savings, etc. ... but they could relate to the idea of a pair of shoes "costing"  6-8 hours of work.  It takes time and consistency to teach a child the value of a dollar, and you've started behind the eight ball.  Keep plugging along. 

- My lower class/poorer female students (and I'm assuming your daughter was plucked from that world) have made comments over the years about nice nails showing that you don't work /don't have to work /are being taken care of.  Super long /super fancy nails show that you don't work at McDonald's /don't do manual labor; in fact, it's even hard to type with lengthy nails.  These girls sometimes refuse to take part in school activities because of their nails:  "I have detention tomorrow because I wouldn't participate in PE today, but you know I can't play volleyball with my nails." (other girls nod in agreement)  or, "I took a zero in Biology; I'm not about to ruin my nails by touching that frog."  Yeah, I've heard such things on a fairly frequent basis.  In some girls' worlds, fancy nails are the #2 status symbol (cell phones being #1 these days for all teens).  I don't know whether your daughter buys into this concept -- and I'm pretty sure you'd put work ethic above this foolish idea -- but it isn't an unusual thought process.  It's not unlike the desire for a dark suntan that we had when I was a teen (before we were all terrified of skin cancer), which was popular in part because it showed you had the money and leisure time to go to the beach /pool instead of an after-school job. 

- Final thought:  If nails are really a passion for her, perhaps this is a career path worth investigating.  At my high school we have a Cosmetology program, which divides into two groups:  One group studies hair care, while the other focuses on what they call Nail Technology.  It's a program for juniors and seniors, they put in HOURS and HOURS of work learning the art, and the girls come out of high school licensed to do nails.  I know there's no money in doing nails, but there IS money in owning the salon.  If she were to do the Nail Tech program in high school, then a degree in business (even just an Associate's), she'd be on the road to owning a nail salon one day. 

I will add a counter to this.  There's a family friend who is the second generation owner and CEO of a manufacturing company.  His net worth is easily in the 10's of millions, if not 100's.  He carries around a HUGE wad of cash with him.  Pays for everything with cash.

But, he does this because he firmly believes in controlling his privacy ...
Okay, then people who carry huge wads of cash tend to be either poor OR a bit eccentric. 

Personally, I just like having cash. Makes me feel wealthy.
Interesting.  I have no emotions about methods of payment. 

You realize, of course, that your net worth remains the same regardless of whether your spending money is in a checking account or in your pocket.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:43:49 AM by MrsPete »

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2017, 12:00:13 PM »
Several thoughts: 

- You're a saint for taking that child out of that situation; you're a double saint for bringing her academics up to par.  Your actions will carry ripples for generations; her life is better, her children's lives will be better, and society will be better.  You've made an inspiring choice. 

Thanks, although I'm a being of the more infernal variety.

Things will improve for future generations *if* the child elects to learn from me and if it sticks. Yet I'm becoming increasingly certain that class will perpetuate.

I have not been able to change my daughter's class one iota. (I define "class" the way my maternal grandmother did: your class is not based on your net worth, your income, or where you were educated. It is based on how you treat other people, what responsibilities you have toward them, what if anything you expect in exchange, and what you do with the resources you've got.)

Quote
- When my kids wanted to spend on something foolish (Look, Mom, these $80 jeans are on sale for only $50!") I often offered to pay what I would've paid anyway and let them pay the difference (You do need jeans, and I'm willing to pay $20 a pair.  I'll give you the $20, and you can pay the $30 out of your pocket.).

That's absolutely brilliant, however I must make a caveat.

In some children's case it's also necessary to physically attend when/where the luxury purchase is taking place to make sure the money gets spent on the luxury purchase in question and not something else.

Quote
- My lower class/poorer female students (and I'm assuming your daughter was plucked from that world) have made comments over the years about nice nails showing that you don't work /don't have to work /are being taken care of.  Super long /super fancy nails show that you don't work at McDonald's /don't do manual labor; in fact, it's even hard to type with lengthy nails.

Indeed. However, when a woman of any age allows someone else to "take care of her" there's generally compensation of some other kind going on. Suitable occupations include "baby mama", "sugar baby", and "trophy wife". All these titles imply that the woman in question did not personally earn the luxuries she's sporting. There are similar titles for men, such as "pimp", "gigolo", and "cabana boy". For the purpose of this conversation I think it's safe to stay focused on the female part of the experience.

The derogatory labels obviously are seldom applied to women whose occupation requires them to maintain a very high-maintenance caricature look: for example, people who work in the beauty industry and certain aspects of the entertainment industry.

I know, and am related to, a few women who like a very nice manicure. They may decorate their nails for special occasions, but they keep them short enough to be able to type an E-mail. None of the ones who are supported by anybody else (such as a husband) decorate their nails with anything more complicated or attention-seeking than polish. They make that fashion decision chiefly to avoid looking like trophy wives or mistresses. Those who have a profession and support themselves choose to decorate, or not, depending on who their customers and business clients are.

Quote
These girls sometimes refuse to take part in school activities because of their nails:  "I have detention tomorrow because I wouldn't participate in PE today, but you know I can't play volleyball with my nails." (other girls nod in agreement)  or, "I took a zero in Biology; I'm not about to ruin my nails by touching that frog."

Ah, chattel in training.

By this, I mean that they're willing to sacrifice something that compromises their long-term health and best interests in favor of a status symbol that's not going to not exist in two weeks. If their attitude lasts, the young women in question may never develop the skills that let them provide value to other human beings. That creates an economic vulnerability that can and will lead a young woman into a relationship (however short-term or long term) in exchange for money and material goods, assuming she doesn't desire such a situation for its own sake.

The irony is that although having a fancy manicure might be a status symbol, fussing over it and making decisions based on it is not. Anyone who has the means to do what they want with their fingernails either gets them done in a way that suits their lifestyle (short and sports-friendly, for people whose lifestyles include sport), or accepts that they occasionally have to waste a set on frog guts or something similar. (Since when does dissection require touching the subject?)

Of course we could say that for any status symbol.

Quote
Yeah, I've heard such things on a fairly frequent basis.  In some girls' worlds, fancy nails are the #2 status symbol (cell phones being #1 these days for all teens).  I don't know whether your daughter buys into this concept -- and I'm pretty sure you'd put work ethic above this foolish idea -- but it isn't an unusual thought process.  It's not unlike the desire for a dark suntan that we had when I was a teen (before we were all terrified of skin cancer), which was popular in part because it showed you had the money and leisure time to go to the beach /pool instead of an after-school job. 

I do indeed prioritize work ethic; it's an example of how un-hip, un-cool, and low-class I am compared to my daughters' exalted peers. Many of them do not work for a living. They are whores, baby mamas, and trophy girlfriends or trophy wives. Sadly, my daughter's not willing to do what whores, professional baby mamas, and trophy women do. So it's unreasonable for her to expect to live the same lifestyle. Given unlimited means she'd go full Trustafarian.

I of course am not giving my daughter the means to live as though she's independently wealthy. Because of this, she regularly screams at me, throws temper tantrums, calls me a "piece of shit" or worse, and damages my home. The tantrum invariably wears itself out when she finds someone else to give her what she wants, generally because she's filled their head with stories of how unreasonable I am and how I'm not supporting her financially. It's at the point where I have to have receipts and proof easily accessible because of the sheer number of people who believe the wild (and false) stories of how my daughter is being deprived of food, basic clothing, shelter, or medical care. From time to time they take it upon themselves to crusade on my daughter's behalf, and I'm their primary target.

With my daughter's fixation with the fashionable set in conjunction with her inability to compromise, my biggest fear for her is that she'll end up pulling a Lily Bart.

Quote
- Final thought:  If nails are really a passion for her, perhaps this is a career path worth investigating.

That's not high-status enough for her, nor will it provide any of the other luxuries she's decided she "needs". Also, it requires that she finish high school which is not presently a priority for her. Nor is any kind of advanced credential. She simply doesn't want to work that hard or spend time in a classroom learning how to run a business. Nor is she willing to apprentice to or be mentored by someone else who did. Owning the salon could be viable for her but only if it is managed by someone else who just writes her a check every month.

My next step is to let reality force her to reprioritize her "needs", "wants", and "nice-to-haves". This isn't something I can do for her. I've tried. She consistently puts the experience of enabling someone else's self destructive or irresponsible behavior above everything else, including her own education. No good ever comes of that.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2017, 08:42:46 PM »
Things will improve for future generations *if* the child elects to learn from me and if it sticks. Yet I'm becoming increasingly certain that class will perpetuate.

Well, it's hard to overcome a decade and a half of example. 


That's absolutely brilliant, however I must make a caveat.


Since you like that, I'll share a few other things that worked well for me.  I hope some of these ideas will help you:

- From about the time they started middle school, I started giving my girls "allowances for specific events".  For example, at back to school time we'd make a list of what they needed to buy -- maybe 2 pair of jeans, shoes and a calculator ... oh, but the old backpack is still perfectly good, as is last year's coat -- and based upon the list I'd give them X amount of money.  And they were responsible for doing their own shopping (yes to your caveat -- I was always with them when they did this shopping, but I let them make the final decisions).  As we made the shopping list, we'd set "goal prices", which helped them understand ... our goal was $100 for the calculator, but we found a coupon online, so now we have an extra $20 for clothes.  And this was important:  If they didn't shop well and only ended up with 1 pair of jeans, I didn't help with the laundry.  I let them reap the consequences of having only one pair of jeans. 

- For Prom and other dances, I set a budget:  I told them I'd spend $200 on prom, $50 for small dances -- that had to cover dress, shoes, heels, nails ... everything.  If they wanted more, I was glad to provide work around the house for extra money -- neither ever took me up on that.  When my oldest first went to prom, she blew the whole $200 on a dress (it was gorgeous), and she used old purse/shoes that belonged to me.  For her second prom, she found a $50 dress, and she said she didn't see the point in buying new shoes for prom "just for the sake of buying new shoes".  She asked if she could wear my silver shoes again, and if she could have the remainder for college clothes she needed ... so part of her prom clothes budget went for a heavy coat and snow boots, things we don't own in our area.  My youngest watched and learned from her sister ... and at one she found a super-cute short dressy-dress on a clearance rack and asked, "Could I buy this in advance for a dance that probably won't happen for a while?"  I said yes to a $15 dress, and -- wouldn't you know it? -- two weeks later she was invited to Military Ball.  That black and white dress was adorable, and she wore black heels she already owned.  The take-away:  By giving them a set budget, they learned to work within it. 

- About the time they started high school, I started giving them their allowance once a month (which is convenient because I'm paid once a month).  They received enough allowance to cover their school lunches, personal toiletries, and going out with friends.  If they ran out, I did not save them. 


By this, I mean that they're willing to sacrifice something that compromises their long-term health and best interests in favor of a status symbol that's not going to not exist in two weeks. If their attitude lasts, the young women in question may never develop the skills that let them provide value to other human beings. That creates an economic vulnerability that can and will lead a young woman into a relationship (however short-term or long term) in exchange for money and material goods, assuming she doesn't desire such a situation for its own sake.


I agree with every word ... though I wish it weren't true.  I think the nail thing is maybe worse than phones and clothes because it's such a temporary purchase! 


I do indeed prioritize work ethic; it's an example of how un-hip, un-cool, and low-class I am compared to my daughters' exalted peers.


Yeah, I'm getting the impression that you're very un-cool.  I like that in a person! 

I of course am not giving my daughter the means to live as though she's independently wealthy. Because of this, she regularly screams at me, throws temper tantrums, calls me a "piece of shit" or worse, and damages my home. The tantrum invariably wears itself out when she finds someone else to give her what she wants, generally because she's filled their head with stories of how unreasonable I am and how I'm not supporting her financially. It's at the point where I have to have receipts and proof easily accessible because of the sheer number of people who believe the wild (and false) stories of how my daughter is being deprived of food, basic clothing, shelter, or medical care. From time to time they take it upon themselves to crusade on my daughter's behalf, and I'm their primary target.

Yikes.  I'm sorry you're going through these difficult times! 

I completely understand where you're coming from about your daughter spinning tales to others about how cruel you are.  As a teacher, I've heard it before -- and when I was younger, I fell for it.  For example, this year I taught two girls who told me that they "couldn't do my homework because they had to work", and they went on to explain that their parents wouldn't feed them.  Being older and wiser, I asked them to elaborate.  I asked, "You mean your mother never provides meals?  There's nothing in the refrigerator?"  When questioned directly, they admitted that their parents provided meals -- but it's yucky stuff like pot roast and vegetables, or omelets for dinner, or even beans and cornbread.  They want to eat Chick-fillet biscuits every morning, drink $8 Starbucks iced coffees, and pick up Panera salads for dinner.  So I asked them, "You're telling me that your parents provide you with food, but it's not the food you prefer?"  And they sheepishly had to say, "Yeah, that's it." 

Some teens -- no, some teen girls; guys don't pull this particular trick -- like to pull others into their "my parents don't take care of me" thing.  I've heard lots of variations on this story over the years.  And, yeah, sometimes these girls are able to make naive, kind people believe them.  Your best bet, if questioned, is to explain exactly what's really going on. 


That's not high-status enough for her, nor will it provide any of the other luxuries she's decided she "needs". Also, it requires that she finish high school which is not presently a priority for her. Nor is any kind of advanced credential. She simply doesn't want to work that hard or spend time in a classroom learning how to run a business. Nor is she willing to apprentice to or be mentored by someone else who did. Owning the salon could be viable for her but only if it is managed by someone else who just writes her a check every month.


Can you work with her on understanding, This is the lifestyle you'd be able to afford as a grocery store cashier ... On the other hand, this is what you could afford as a small business owner, and this is what it would take to get to that point. 

My husband tells me (I didn't know him then) that he was the kid who thought high school was PLENTY, and he was making loads of money working at a restaurant.  His dad was wise enough not to push him into college right away ... but his dad let him work and charged him rent so that he could see how hard it would be to make it on minimum wage.  After two years, he was ready for college. 

This would all be very tough to deal with.  Do you have any type of support group where you can get advice from other people who are in this situation?  I mean, I can tell you about my kids, but your daughter's dealing with things my middle-class-since-birth kids haven't faced. 

« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 08:45:56 PM by MrsPete »

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2017, 09:08:54 AM »
- About the time they started high school, I started giving them their allowance once a month (which is convenient because I'm paid once a month).  They received enough allowance to cover their school lunches, personal toiletries, and going out with friends.  If they ran out, I did not save them. 
If I did that I'd have the authorities on my case for "not feeding" the kid. Plus, she's such an effective actress that she's able to pry money and resources out of just about anyone. It's not unusual for her to decide she wants McDonald's, so she'll post on social media that there's no food in the house and that I'm not feeding her in order to get one of her flying monkeys to take time off work or school, buy her junk food, and deliver it to my home.

I give her the allowance once a week and put gas in the car (I've learned to not give her gas money) once a week. I find she's gotten better at figuring out what she wants the most, and she's less vulnerable to people who are trying to cadge goodies out of her. In fairness, most of them just want reciprocity for the unreasonable spending they've already done on her.

Quote
Can you work with her on understanding, This is the lifestyle you'd be able to afford as a grocery store cashier ... On the other hand, this is what you could afford as a small business owner, and this is what it would take to get to that point. 

My husband tells me (I didn't know him then) that he was the kid who thought high school was PLENTY, and he was making loads of money working at a restaurant.  His dad was wise enough not to push him into college right away ... but his dad let him work and charged him rent so that he could see how hard it would be to make it on minimum wage.  After two years, he was ready for college. 
Two years is a lot of damage done to my home and a lot of abuse and disruption for me. I'd rather have her learn that lesson elsewhere.
Quote
This would all be very tough to deal with.  Do you have any type of support group where you can get advice from other people who are in this situation?  I mean, I can tell you about my kids, but your daughter's dealing with things my middle-class-since-birth kids haven't faced.
I have friends who have also adopted, although for the most part their kids want to be part of a family with them. Mine doesn't. She lied her way through an adoption finalization and now wants to call backsies on the whole thing because what she really, really wants is to live like a pig with other pigs. When she's 18, she has the Constitutional right to go do that. But she can't do it here in my home. I am not a pig and refuse to embrace pig culture. If she wants to live with me as an adult, she has to act like a civilized person, show some basic respect, and work toward independence preferably while contributing something to the household she lives in besides wall and door damage.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 07:55:51 PM by TheGrimSqueaker »

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2017, 03:15:47 PM »
- About the time they started high school, I started giving them their allowance once a month (which is convenient because I'm paid once a month).  They received enough allowance to cover their school lunches, personal toiletries, and going out with friends.  If they ran out, I did not save them. 
[\quote]
If I did that I'd have the authorities on my case for "not feeding" the kid. Plus, she's such an effective actress that she's able to pry money and resources out of just about anyone. It's not unusual for her to decide she wants McDonald's, so she'll post on social media that there's no food in the house and that I'm not feeding her in order to get one of her flying monkeys to take time off work or school, buy her junk food, and deliver it to my home.

I give her the allowance once a week and put gas in the car (I've learned to not give her gas money) once a week. I find she's gotten better at figuring out what she wants the most, and she's less vulnerable to people who are trying to cadge goodies out of her. In fairness, most of them just want reciprocity for the unreasonable spending they've already done on her.

Quote
Can you work with her on understanding, This is the lifestyle you'd be able to afford as a grocery store cashier ... On the other hand, this is what you could afford as a small business owner, and this is what it would take to get to that point. 

My husband tells me (I didn't know him then) that he was the kid who thought high school was PLENTY, and he was making loads of money working at a restaurant.  His dad was wise enough not to push him into college right away ... but his dad let him work and charged him rent so that he could see how hard it would be to make it on minimum wage.  After two years, he was ready for college. 
Two years is a lot of damage done to my home and a lot of abuse and disruption for me. I'd rather have her learn that lesson elsewhere.
Quote
This would all be very tough to deal with.  Do you have any type of support group where you can get advice from other people who are in this situation?  I mean, I can tell you about my kids, but your daughter's dealing with things my middle-class-since-birth kids haven't faced.
I have friends who have also adopted, although for the most part their kids want to be part of a family with them. Mine doesn't. She lied her way through an adoption finalization and now wants to call backsies on the whole thing because what she really, really wants is to live like a pig with other pigs. When she's 18, she has the Constitutional right to go do that. But she can't do it here in my home. I am not a pig and refuse to embrace pig culture. If she wants to live with me as an adult, she has to act like a civilized person, show some basic respect, and work toward independence preferably while contributing something to the household she lives in besides wall and door damage.
Don't worry about the authorities and "not feeding your kid".  Clearly you could prove that you have food in your house /could show grocery store receipts.  My mom was one of "the authorities" until she retired, and they are not on a witch-hunt; rather, they are pretty good at recognizing rebellious teens and their stories. 

Sounds like you're already using a one-week version of my monthly-allowance plan, and with your daughter having come from a tough background, that's probably a better option for you. 

As for her conning others, that's a really tough nut to crack.  She's circumventing your wishes and is good at it.  I have no idea what to say about that, except to send good wishes. 

If she leaves high school without real direction or skills, Job Corps might be a good option ... though it is a low-status path. 

I totally agree with you about refusing to lie down with Pigs.  This child was in a bad place, and you didn't adopt her to allow her to remain in a bad place.  You're right to insist upon maintaining your own values. 

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2017, 08:11:23 PM »
- About the time they started high school, I started giving them their allowance once a month (which is convenient because I'm paid once a month).  They received enough allowance to cover their school lunches, personal toiletries, and going out with friends.  If they ran out, I did not save them. 
If I did that I'd have the authorities on my case for "not feeding" the kid. Plus, she's such an effective actress that she's able to pry money and resources out of just about anyone. It's not unusual for her to decide she wants McDonald's, so she'll post on social media that there's no food in the house and that I'm not feeding her in order to get one of her flying monkeys to take time off work or school, buy her junk food, and deliver it to my home.

I give her the allowance once a week and put gas in the car (I've learned to not give her gas money) once a week. I find she's gotten better at figuring out what she wants the most, and she's less vulnerable to people who are trying to cadge goodies out of her. In fairness, most of them just want reciprocity for the unreasonable spending they've already done on her.

Quote
Can you work with her on understanding, This is the lifestyle you'd be able to afford as a grocery store cashier ... On the other hand, this is what you could afford as a small business owner, and this is what it would take to get to that point. 

My husband tells me (I didn't know him then) that he was the kid who thought high school was PLENTY, and he was making loads of money working at a restaurant.  His dad was wise enough not to push him into college right away ... but his dad let him work and charged him rent so that he could see how hard it would be to make it on minimum wage.  After two years, he was ready for college. 
Two years is a lot of damage done to my home and a lot of abuse and disruption for me. I'd rather have her learn that lesson elsewhere.
Quote
This would all be very tough to deal with.  Do you have any type of support group where you can get advice from other people who are in this situation?  I mean, I can tell you about my kids, but your daughter's dealing with things my middle-class-since-birth kids haven't faced.
I have friends who have also adopted, although for the most part their kids want to be part of a family with them. Mine doesn't. She lied her way through an adoption finalization and now wants to call backsies on the whole thing because what she really, really wants is to live like a pig with other pigs. When she's 18, she has the Constitutional right to go do that. But she can't do it here in my home. I am not a pig and refuse to embrace pig culture. If she wants to live with me as an adult, she has to act like a civilized person, show some basic respect, and work toward independence preferably while contributing something to the household she lives in besides wall and door damage.
Don't worry about the authorities and "not feeding your kid".  Clearly you could prove that you have food in your house /could show grocery store receipts.  My mom was one of "the authorities" until she retired, and they are not on a witch-hunt; rather, they are pretty good at recognizing rebellious teens and their stories. 

Sounds like you're already using a one-week version of my monthly-allowance plan, and with your daughter having come from a tough background, that's probably a better option for you. 

As for her conning others, that's a really tough nut to crack.  She's circumventing your wishes and is good at it.  I have no idea what to say about that, except to send good wishes. 

If she leaves high school without real direction or skills, Job Corps might be a good option ... though it is a low-status path. 

I totally agree with you about refusing to lie down with Pigs.  This child was in a bad place, and you didn't adopt her to allow her to remain in a bad place.  You're right to insist upon maintaining your own values.

How do you think I learned to keep documentation and proof on me at all times? I never know when a flying monkey with a badge is going to come swooping in.

I've actually had to deal with one such investigation already. Last year my daughter spun her bio-sister into filing a false report on me. I told my daughter that maybe Sis had done her a favor, since she hated me so much and spoke so often about wanting to be back in foster care. That's when Daughter started backpedaling, because she realized that if she went back into the system she'd lose a whole bunch of her freedom, opportunity, and other material goodies I provide. Particularly after I suggested that I might not try very hard to get her back.

My daughter continues to associate with her sister and other members of her bio-family who interact with her. So another attack and investigation against me is highly probable. My daughter has already made at least one call to report me for abusing her when I failed to give her money she wanted to go gallivanting with her school friends after she'd already spent her allowance.

It's an entitlement class thing. You get used to it. But after this little bird leaves the nest, I've resolved never going to voluntarily associate with another member of that socioeconomic class so long as I live.

Padonak

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 403
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2017, 09:04:08 PM »
TheGrimSqueaker, I admire your patience. If I had an adopted daughter like that, I would give her back to foster care the first time she called me a piece of shit. Maybe that's why I don't have children.

One wise old man told me a long time ago: never let anybody tell you how to spend your money. That's one of the rules I live by, for better or for worse.

TheGrimSqueaker

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
  • Location: A desert wasteland, where none but the weird survive
  • www.theliveinlandlord.com
    • The Live-In Landlord
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2017, 10:51:33 PM »
TheGrimSqueaker, I admire your patience. If I had an adopted daughter like that, I would give her back to foster care the first time she called me a piece of shit. Maybe that's why I don't have children.
I would have too, except she didn't start in with the cussing, disobedience, hitting, wall pounding, door breaking, lying, truancy, fraud, runaway behavior, or false reports until after the paperwork was signed.

There were some reports of minor violent behavior in her file from the more distant past (as in ~2 years before) but nothing on this scale. Several shrinks, two treatment foster care parents, some teachers, and a bunch of social workers swore up and down that she'd made some significant permanent changes. I was enough of a dumbass to believe them. The contract I signed requires me to tolerate her abuse and to support her financially no matter what until she turns 18.

It turns out her desire to be adopted was one big lie and nothing more: a way to cadge money, resources, and opportunities that wouldn't have been available in the system, so as to redistribute them to the people in her life she really cared about.

But that's the entitlement class for you.
Quote
One wise old man told me a long time ago: never let anybody tell you how to spend your money. That's one of the rules I live by, for better or for worse.
It's a good rule.

JAYSLOL

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1118
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2017, 12:30:01 AM »
Based on the topic title I was expecting this to be about burying a bunch of gold somewhere and then declaring bankruptcy.  I'm disappointed.  I was expecting a good story.

Same, I was hoping for a good story of someone using 50 credit cards to buy a couple Million in gold and then declare bankruptcy and through some insane loophole keep all the gold.  Instead, it truely was a dumpster fire. 

infogoon

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 840
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2017, 08:35:22 AM »
I think I've ended up with the same impression: that people with significant sums of cash are probably poor, unbanked, and financially not savvy.

The only people I know who carry large amounts of cash are working under the table to get out of paying child support.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3519
Re: Get out of debt by buying gold and not paying your bills
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2017, 04:45:42 PM »
My daughter continues to associate with her sister and other members of her bio-family who interact with her. So another attack and investigation against me is highly probable. My daughter has already made at least one call to report me for abusing her when I failed to give her money she wanted to go gallivanting with her school friends after she'd already spent her allowance.

It's an entitlement class thing. You get used to it. But after this little bird leaves the nest, I've resolved never going to voluntarily associate with another member of that socioeconomic class so long as I live.
Ouch.  How old is she?

Serious question:  If you could go back to the beginning, was there any chance of "winning" with this girl?  That is, any chance of helping her see the path to a better life?  Or was she just too old /too entrenched in her lifestyle, beliefs, values?  Do you think she's typical of kids who make it to their teen years in foster care? 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 04:50:39 PM by MrsPete »