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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: okashira on August 04, 2014, 02:03:42 PM

Title: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: okashira on August 04, 2014, 02:03:42 PM
With our first child, we went with a Tahoe (actually a Yukon... same difference). As out second came along, we wanted more space. We travel a fair amount plus have two dogs. We looked for a Suburban and ended up with and Escalade ESV (same length, just nicer equipped)...


Seems to be pretty common there. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll stick to them for only investing information, 401k rollovers and IRA strategies.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: greaper007 on August 04, 2014, 02:05:57 PM
With our first child, we went with a Tahoe (actually a Yukon... same difference). As out second came along, we wanted more space. We travel a fair amount plus have two dogs. We looked for a Suburban and ended up with and Escalade ESV (same length, just nicer equipped)...


Seems to be pretty common there. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll stick to them for only investing information, 401k rollovers and IRA strategies.

Interesting, I guess a third child would require a tractor trailer.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: gimp on August 04, 2014, 02:25:13 PM
What I imagine the family to be like (http://yalenusblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/family-guy-shape.jpg)
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Luck12 on August 04, 2014, 04:36:23 PM
Sad thing is they all think they're so frugal. 
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Nords on August 04, 2014, 07:32:28 PM
With our first child, we went with a Tahoe (actually a Yukon... same difference). As out second came along, we wanted more space. We travel a fair amount plus have two dogs. We looked for a Suburban and ended up with and Escalade ESV (same length, just nicer equipped)...


Seems to be pretty common there. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll stick to them for only investing information, 401k rollovers and IRA strategies.

Sad thing is they all think they're so frugal. 
I wouldn't judge the whole board by one poster, but the Bogleheads are about passive index funds with low expense ratios.  That's the only frugal they really have to care about.  And while they're all interested in financial independence, I would not confuse that Boglehead goal with early retirement. 

There is nothing over there requiring face-punching.  I use their wiki a lot.  I have a lot of friends there, and a number of rock-star advisors, bloggers, & authors spend much of their time on that forum.  Where else could you engage with William Bernstein on one thread, and watch Rick Ferri duke it out with Larry Swedroe on another?
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: nordlead on August 05, 2014, 11:00:35 AM
With our first child, we went with a Tahoe (actually a Yukon... same difference). As out second came along, we wanted more space. We travel a fair amount plus have two dogs. We looked for a Suburban and ended up with and Escalade ESV (same length, just nicer equipped)...


Seems to be pretty common there. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll stick to them for only investing information, 401k rollovers and IRA strategies.

Sad thing is they all think they're so frugal. 
I wouldn't judge the whole board by one poster, but the Bogleheads are about passive index funds with low expense ratios.  That's the only frugal they really have to care about.  And while they're all interested in financial independence, I would not confuse that Boglehead goal with early retirement. 

There is nothing over there requiring face-punching.  I use their wiki a lot.  I have a lot of friends there, and a number of rock-star advisors, bloggers, & authors spend much of their time on that forum.  Where else could you engage with William Bernstein on one thread, and watch Rick Ferri duke it out with Larry Swedroe on another?

That, and it seems like the majority of the posters either have high paying jobs (there are a lot of doctors there), or somehow came into a large sum of money. They are also super frugal about their taxes, and you can learn a lot from them on optimizing taxes.

I can't fault them for buying fancy cars when they max out their tax advantaged accounts, throw money in taxable, and still have some left over.

I mean, would you really want to fit two German Shepards (he didn't specify the dog, but I'm guessing they are big dogs based on the car he bought), two kids, two adults, and luggage in a Honda Fit?
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Bourbon on August 05, 2014, 12:13:25 PM
With our first child, we went with a Tahoe (actually a Yukon... same difference). As out second came along, we wanted more space. We travel a fair amount plus have two dogs. We looked for a Suburban and ended up with and Escalade ESV (same length, just nicer equipped)...


Seems to be pretty common there. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll stick to them for only investing information, 401k rollovers and IRA strategies.

Sad thing is they all think they're so frugal. 
I wouldn't judge the whole board by one poster, but the Bogleheads are about passive index funds with low expense ratios.  That's the only frugal they really have to care about.  And while they're all interested in financial independence, I would not confuse that Boglehead goal with early retirement. 

There is nothing over there requiring face-punching.  I use their wiki a lot.  I have a lot of friends there, and a number of rock-star advisors, bloggers, & authors spend much of their time on that forum.  Where else could you engage with William Bernstein on one thread, and watch Rick Ferri duke it out with Larry Swedroe on another?

That, and it seems like the majority of the posters either have high paying jobs (there are a lot of doctors there), or somehow came into a large sum of money. They are also super frugal about their taxes, and you can learn a lot from them on optimizing taxes.

I can't fault them for buying fancy cars when they max out their tax advantaged accounts, throw money in taxable, and still have some left over.

I mean, would you really want to fit two German Shepards (he didn't specify the dog, but I'm guessing they are big dogs based on the car he bought), two kids, two adults, and luggage in a Honda Fit?

Is there a good starting point over there to optimize taxes?  This is on my list, to get off of DIY turbotax and find a CPA or get educated on some more tricks.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: surfhb on August 05, 2014, 12:29:51 PM
Boglehead forum is far from a frugality forum   But if you want to learn smart investing and money management, that's the place to look
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Nords on August 06, 2014, 09:16:12 PM
Is there a good starting point over there to optimize taxes?  This is on my list, to get off of DIY turbotax and find a CPA or get educated on some more tricks.
Start with the Bogleheads wiki:  http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Category:Tax_considerations

If that taps out then search the forum or start your own thread.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: mlipps on August 06, 2014, 09:33:49 PM
Is there a good starting point over there to optimize taxes?  This is on my list, to get off of DIY turbotax and find a CPA or get educated on some more tricks.
Start with the Bogleheads wiki:  http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Category:Tax_considerations

If that taps out then search the forum or start your own thread.

Also look for posts from livesoft and Bob's not my name.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: mlipps on August 06, 2014, 09:37:43 PM
Also, Bogle heads does not get a pass from the AMHoF from me. There's plenty of people living responsibly and doing their conspicuous consumption thing at the same time, but they're are also a ton of people who are way too nice about people who in truly dire situations and also plenty of people who are so conservative they never want to stop saving. The risk tolerance difference between here and there is huge and although it's obviously not always a bad thing, it can be alarming to me at times.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: greaper007 on August 07, 2014, 04:47:10 PM
I'm a SAHD with 2 kids and until recently a medium sized dog.   Our VW Golf more than covered our needs the majority of their life (even with the occasional fifth passenger).   I share a minvan with a family member now, but that's really overkill for 90% of our driving.     And really, many on this forum would facepunch me for not driving around in something fueled by burritos and free range eggs.

It's not luxury that I have a problem with.    By all means buy a Tesla if you have the dough.    It's the fact that they're operating something that negatively affects my life and they used some really fuzzy logic to justify it.


From what I can tell these people aren't pulling an 8,000 lbs trailer for a living, and they're not one of these religious extremists that think they need to repopulate the world with their spawn (and using all 8 seat belts in the process).    No, they just like to stretch out and I'd imagine, feel powerful.   Here's the problem.

Large trucks like Suburbans have higher bumper locations and perhaps 2-4 times the mass ofmy Golf or Civic.    That means when ms. soccer mom has to talk to her buddy on the phone without even a hands free device and doesn't notice my considerably smaller car, I'm more likely to die in our collision.

The Suburban is getting a whopping 15/21 MPG.     That means I have to deal with more fracking, more middle east oil and the potential of more oil spills, pipelines, tanker crashes etc.

That substantially lower MPG rating means you're pouring substantially more crap into the atmosphere.   Even if you don't believe in global warming (yes, you deserve a facepunch if so) you're contributing to all sorts of societal issues like smog and poor brain development for children that live near roadways and petroleum refineries. 

Decisions like these hurt all of us.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: MrsPotts on August 07, 2014, 10:31:21 PM
With our first child, we went with a Tahoe (actually a Yukon... same difference). As out second came along, we wanted more space. We travel a fair amount plus have two dogs. We looked for a Suburban and ended up with and Escalade ESV (same length, just nicer equipped)...


Seems to be pretty common there. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I'll stick to them for only investing information, 401k rollovers and IRA strategies.
[/

Sad thing is they all think they're so frugal. 
I wouldn't judge the whole board by one poster, but the Bogleheads are about passive index funds with low expense ratios.  That's the only frugal they really have to care about.  And while they're all interested in financial independence, I would not confuse that Boglehead goal with early retirement. 

There is nothing over there requiring face-punching.  I use their wiki a lot.  I have a lot of friends there, and a number of rock-star advisors, bloggers, & authors spend much of their time on that forum.  Where else could you engage with William Bernstein on one thread, and watch Rick Ferri duke it out with Larry Swedroe on another?

That, and it seems like the majority of the posters either have high paying jobs (there are a lot of doctors there), or somehow came into a large sum of money. They are also super frugal about their taxes, and you can learn a lot from them on optimizing taxes.

I can't fault them for buying fancy cars when they max out their tax advantaged accounts, throw money in taxable, and still have some left over.

I mean, would you really want to fit two German Shepards (he didn't specify the dog, but I'm guessing they are big dogs based on the car he bought), two kids, two adults, and luggage in a Honda Fit?

I dunno, but I easily fit two adults, two teenagers, four backpacks, a viola and a cello in my Corolla. 
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Flynlow on August 08, 2014, 06:02:02 AM
Everyone here is free to embrace frugality and early retirement, shouldn't people also be free NOT to embrace those things and do what makes THEM happy?  Particularly if they're in good financial shape and never asked or solicited your advice?

The Bogleheads forum has a very different goal than the MMM forum.  And that's a good thing!  Takes all kinds to make the world go round.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: mlipps on August 08, 2014, 08:57:17 AM
Everyone here is free to embrace frugality and early retirement, shouldn't people also be free NOT to embrace those things and do what makes THEM happy?  Particularly if they're in good financial shape and never asked or solicited your advice?

The Bogleheads forum has a very different goal than the MMM forum.  And that's a good thing!  Takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Posts like this one on Bogleheads are the ones that make my head spin: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=143025
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: okashira on August 08, 2014, 12:02:46 PM
Everyone here is free to embrace frugality and early retirement, shouldn't people also be free NOT to embrace those things and do what makes THEM happy?  Particularly if they're in good financial shape and never asked or solicited your advice?

The Bogleheads forum has a very different goal than the MMM forum.  And that's a good thing!  Takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Hello, and welcome to the Antimustachian Wall of Shame forum, and this is what we do.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: okashira on August 08, 2014, 12:07:37 PM
Everyone here is free to embrace frugality and early retirement, shouldn't people also be free NOT to embrace those things and do what makes THEM happy?  Particularly if they're in good financial shape and never asked or solicited your advice?

The Bogleheads forum has a very different goal than the MMM forum.  And that's a good thing!  Takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Posts like this one on Bogleheads are the ones that make my head spin: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=143025

Oh, two 35K (were 50K + SUVs) and two kids? Makes sense.

I laugh when people say their truck / SUV was "Only" 20k, 30k, 35k, whatever.
It's the other 90K in gas/insurance/tires that get you.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: odput on August 08, 2014, 12:28:34 PM
I laugh when people say their truck / SUV was "Only" 20k, 30k, 35k, whatever.

My favorite is the "the mileage isn't that bad...I can get like 25mpg"

Usually emphasis on "that" and "like".  Probably stretching a bit for that 25mpg, whereas I can tell you for certain (I'm a math nerd and scratch down the miles and fillup amts) that I regularly get 35-37mpg in my Corolla
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Flynlow on August 08, 2014, 12:54:14 PM

Hello, and welcome to the Antimustachian Wall of Shame forum, and this is what we do.

Thanks for the welcome, I've been here considerably longer than you :).

Putting the snark aside, my point stands, of all the places to mock for poor decisions, Bogleheads is pretty close to the bottom of my list.  In the example posted, the person claims 400K in assets at ~30 years old.....not exactly facepunch worthy.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Woodshark on August 08, 2014, 02:41:13 PM
Two of the best forums on the net but,

Different forum. Different goals.

At MMM I learn frugality.

At Bogleheads I learn all about investing and taxes.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Forcus on August 08, 2014, 02:43:19 PM
Everyone here is free to embrace frugality and early retirement, shouldn't people also be free NOT to embrace those things and do what makes THEM happy?  Particularly if they're in good financial shape and never asked or solicited your advice?

You know, I constantly think about this. On one hand, someone else's choice shouldn't impact my health or safety. On the other hand, in the broadest view, EVERY decision you make impacts someone, even to the smallest degree. I am NOT a fan of dictating what other people drive. On the other hand it's still an arms race for vehicle size and weight and it does impact my vehicle purchases. I don't think there is one right answer and therein lies the rub. Someone will ALWAYS be disadvantaged by your decisions, so what do you do? Don't have the answer, just asking.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: mlipps on August 08, 2014, 06:28:28 PM

Hello, and welcome to the Antimustachian Wall of Shame forum, and this is what we do.

Thanks for the welcome, I've been here considerably longer than you :).

Putting the snark aside, my point stands, of all the places to mock for poor decisions, Bogleheads is pretty close to the bottom of my list.  In the example posted, the person claims 400K in assets at ~30 years old.....not exactly facepunch worthy.

No, the poster wasn't. The responders with their "oh, dear, maybe you're a in a little pickle now" responses were what made me long for the same guy to post here.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Flynlow on August 09, 2014, 05:51:45 AM

You know, I constantly think about this. On one hand, someone else's choice shouldn't impact my health or safety. On the other hand, in the broadest view, EVERY decision you make impacts someone, even to the smallest degree. I am NOT a fan of dictating what other people drive. On the other hand it's still an arms race for vehicle size and weight and it does impact my vehicle purchases. I don't think there is one right answer and therein lies the rub. Someone will ALWAYS be disadvantaged by your decisions, so what do you do? Don't have the answer, just asking.

Right there with you buddy :), though that's a whole separate discussion.  It really bothers me that cars have gotten so ridiculously big and hard to see out of.  I wish we could get a law passed for a new class of cars to be legal similar to what is available in other civilized countries, that are light, economical, and RIDICULOUSLY fun to drive:

(http://thesupercarkids.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/caterham-csr-260-superlight-02.jpg)

(http://www.besportier.com/archives/ktm-x-bow.jpg)

(http://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/24190/Radical%20rear.jpg)

I'd drive something like that as my only car!  Ah well, in MMM fashion, there ARE alternatives, you can still have something like that, just have to build it yourself....great way to learn some new skills.  And it does seem like so many of our decisions affect others, I haven't found a good answer yet, the closest I've been able to come is, "Live and let live".




No, the poster wasn't. The responders with their "oh, dear, maybe you're a in a little pickle now" responses were what made me long for the same guy to post here.

I didn't see a link in the OP's post, just a quote.  Yours was the only hyperlink I saw, and I just rechecked, the numbers in that one were closer to 31 and $550K assets (net worth higher), so again, that guy gets a pass in my opinion. He's won the game and can do as he likes.  The fact that you or I might be able to retire on such a sum is just a personal decision. 
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Forcus on August 11, 2014, 11:48:43 AM

Right there with you buddy :), though that's a whole separate discussion.  It really bothers me that cars have gotten so ridiculously big and hard to see out of.  I wish we could get a law passed for a new class of cars to be legal similar to what is available in other civilized countries, that are light, economical, and RIDICULOUSLY fun to drive:

You might be interested in the Polaris Slingshot. It's basically like the KTM XBOW you put up (or a more modern Lotus 7 like you posted) but 3 wheels to skirt car regulations. It JUST came out with limited details but its around $20k.

You can build or buy a Lotus 7 too. Westfield and Caterham make ready to go 7's, but many people build their own (look up Locost 7). I started building one using an RX7 GSL-SE as a donor and a YZF-R1 engine, but life got in the way.

So basically the cars are legal but.... you drive them at your own risk!
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Flynlow on August 12, 2014, 06:11:07 PM

You might be interested in the Polaris Slingshot. It's basically like the KTM XBOW you put up (or a more modern Lotus 7 like you posted) but 3 wheels to skirt car regulations. It JUST came out with limited details but its around $20k.

You can build or buy a Lotus 7 too. Westfield and Caterham make ready to go 7's, but many people build their own (look up Locost 7). I started building one using an RX7 GSL-SE as a donor and a YZF-R1 engine, but life got in the way.

So basically the cars are legal but.... you drive them at your own risk!

Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate the enthusiasm :).  I do intend to build my own car someday (this is me):

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3v6TM7JI6gY/USrBYrTfJCI/AAAAAAAAAi8/YafGKBe20u4/w775-h581-no/IMG_6661.jpg)

And these cars certainly could be seen as less safe, but the trade off in visibility and performance is worth it, in my opinion.  Goes back to the whole freedom of choice thing.  I'm happy to let others drive huge SUVs if it makes them happy, I hope they extend me the same courtesy :). 
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Lyssa on August 13, 2014, 01:35:16 AM
The Bogleheads are really great for investing. But I second that they are far from this forum regarding both risk-tolerance and frugality.

You can read Bogleheads with several million networth who are still working (and not for fun) and Bogleheads asking about advice where to get the best value for money regarding a 20.000 USD engagement ring.

But no doubt: There is no better place to learn about investing.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: PloddingInsight on August 13, 2014, 06:52:02 AM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: AlanStache on August 13, 2014, 08:26:23 AM
Re cars:  Rented a mini cooper (manual) last week.  Loads of fun to drive, love the 'go-cart handling', but the trunk was microscopic and not sure I could have climbed into the back seats.  Think I will stick with my older Corolla and maybe just rent a proper go-cart on a track every now and then.

Edit: and the visibility was worse than expected, to the right was ok but left-aft was blocked and I felt like I was reversing blind half the time.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Posthumane on August 13, 2014, 12:03:06 PM
While I agree that a Tahoe is a ridiculous vehicle for a small family, I would hate to restrict people's vehicle choices on principle. My fear would be that the majority opinion would rule and what would get banned would be small cars and motorcycles that are seen as "dangerous" because they don't offer the same protection to the occupants as larger cars with more safety features. In fact, it's already happing to an extent - try buying a new lightweight car without ABS, airbags, etc.

Flynlow and Forcus, nice to see there are some other 7 fans here. I'm in the process of building a Locost, though life is getting in the way as well for me so progress is slow.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: 4alpacas on August 13, 2014, 12:43:55 PM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: dragoncar on August 13, 2014, 02:54:00 PM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?

I'm really enjoying that thread, as a Northern Californian soon-to-be homeowner.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Nords on August 14, 2014, 12:23:30 AM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625
Well, shucks, he just needs to chat with Wilton Knight* from Early-Retirement.org:
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/realistic-income-question-thinking-of-retiring-59907.html



[* If you don't recognize the name then you clearly didn't watch enough bad 1980s TV.]
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Sdsailing on August 14, 2014, 12:55:21 AM

Comparing bogleaheads to MMs, I dislike the highly self-satisfied and judgmental attitudes (which some adopt) along with the apparent belief of many here that everyone should conform to the quirks of MMism.  It is simply keeping up with the Joneses in reverse, and the underlying sentiments (among them pride) seem to be pretty much identical.



I do not find much of these attitudes on bogleheads.

Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: PloddingInsight on August 14, 2014, 08:54:42 AM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?

The part where the guy earning $275k per year wants to borrow over a million dollars to live in a certain area.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: beltim on August 14, 2014, 08:59:00 AM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?

The part where the guy earning $275k per year wants to borrow over a million dollars to live in a certain area.

And this is a problem because you think he should rent?  That thread shows that a million dollars buys a relatively modest house there.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: dragoncar on August 14, 2014, 09:15:55 AM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?

The part where the guy earning $275k per year wants to borrow over a million dollars to live in a certain area.

And this is a problem because you think he should rent?  That thread shows that a million dollars buys a relatively modest house there.

Of course not, he should live in the trunk of his car and eat lentils.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: beltim on August 14, 2014, 09:22:04 AM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?

The part where the guy earning $275k per year wants to borrow over a million dollars to live in a certain area.

And this is a problem because you think he should rent?  That thread shows that a million dollars buys a relatively modest house there.

Of course not, he should live in the trunk of his car and eat lentils.

Only if it's a paid off car, even if it saves money: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/'urban-nomad'-goes-nfa-(no-fixed-address)-to-pay-down-debt/
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: PloddingInsight on August 14, 2014, 09:29:25 AM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?

The part where the guy earning $275k per year wants to borrow over a million dollars to live in a certain area.

And this is a problem because you think he should rent?  That thread shows that a million dollars buys a relatively modest house there.

Longer commute, rent, switch jobs, anything not to buy a house that is nearly five times the combined income of two full time workers.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: NoraLenderbee on August 14, 2014, 06:03:32 PM
I was a boglehead before I ever heard of MMM, but now I almost can't stand to read their forum anymore.  Great example:

http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=144341&newpost=2153625

What about the thread bothers you?

The part where the guy earning $275k per year wants to borrow over a million dollars to live in a certain area.

And this is a problem because you think he should rent?  That thread shows that a million dollars buys a relatively modest house there.

I'm not PloddingInsight, but to me, the potential problem is that they would be extending themselves quite far to buy the house. Their salaries are high, but with that mortgage, there's not much safety margin. I work in Silicon Valley, and though the money can be big, it can also be really insecure. There were layoffs today at my company, even though they just had the best quarter ever.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: greaper007 on August 15, 2014, 10:55:52 PM
While I agree that a Tahoe is a ridiculous vehicle for a small family, I would hate to restrict people's vehicle choices on principle. My fear would be that the majority opinion would rule and what would get banned would be small cars and motorcycles that are seen as "dangerous" because they don't offer the same protection to the occupants as larger cars with more safety features. In fact, it's already happing to an extent - try buying a new lightweight car without ABS, airbags, etc.

Flynlow and Forcus, nice to see there are some other 7 fans here. I'm in the process of building a Locost, though life is getting in the way as well for me so progress is slow.

An easy solution would be to require a higher license class for vehicles with certain characteristics.   Higher gross weight, bumper height, amount of seat belts etc.    People could be required to have specific training and evaluation in this class of vehicle.    The fines for offenses like speeding or distracted driving would also be higher.

Aviation requires this for things like high performance aircraft, tail draggers, complex aircraft etc.   You also need a type rating specific to an aircraft once you get over a certain weight threshold.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: ender on August 16, 2014, 07:27:37 AM

Comparing bogleaheads to MMs, I dislike the highly self-satisfied and judgmental attitudes (which some adopt) along with the apparent belief of many here that everyone should conform to the quirks of MMism.  It is simply keeping up with the Joneses in reverse, and the underlying sentiments (among them pride) seem to be pretty much identical.



I do not find much of these attitudes on bogleheads.

Yeah, my experience there is basically "what are your goals?" is met with "here's how to meet them" - regardless of what your goals are.

Course, this site is dedicated to early retirement while Bogleheads is a bit more for overall money management/strategy. So it's only natural that MMM forums would judge the motivations/desires, because the site is fundamentally about those, while Bogleheads isn't.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: AlanStache on August 18, 2014, 05:00:35 AM
Quote
An easy solution would be to require a higher license class for vehicles with certain characteristics.   Higher gross weight, bumper height, amount of seat belts etc.    People could be required to have specific training and evaluation in this class of vehicle.    The fines for offenses like speeding or distracted driving would also be higher.

Aviation requires this for things like high performance aircraft, tail draggers, complex aircraft etc.   You also need a type rating specific to an aircraft once you get over a certain weight threshold.

Interesting.  Do you know of anywhere that does this with automobiles?  The comparison to aviation is a good one but not 100% spot on, with flying the pilot is assumed to be more than half intelligent and is required (by law) to think/make decisions on his/her plain of action.  Where it is nearly a constitutional guarantee that any half blind 95-year old can drive a jacked up F350 at 75mph in a rain storm and if something happens it is bad luck.

Also for the casual reader I will note that getting a tail dragger endorsement takes a weekend where the cert to fly under Instrument Flight Rules can take months to earn.

Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: greaper007 on August 20, 2014, 12:46:27 AM
Quote
An easy solution would be to require a higher license class for vehicles with certain characteristics.   Higher gross weight, bumper height, amount of seat belts etc.    People could be required to have specific training and evaluation in this class of vehicle.    The fines for offenses like speeding or distracted driving would also be higher.

Aviation requires this for things like high performance aircraft, tail draggers, complex aircraft etc.   You also need a type rating specific to an aircraft once you get over a certain weight threshold.

Interesting.  Do you know of anywhere that does this with automobiles?  The comparison to aviation is a good one but not 100% spot on, with flying the pilot is assumed to be more than half intelligent and is required (by law) to think/make decisions on his/her plain of action.  Where it is nearly a constitutional guarantee that any half blind 95-year old can drive a jacked up F350 at 75mph in a rain storm and if something happens it is bad luck.

Also for the casual reader I will note that getting a tail dragger endorsement takes a weekend where the cert to fly under Instrument Flight Rules can take months to earn.

I don't know of a country that does this.    I do know that the driving evaluation in Europe is much more complex than it is in the US.   As a flight instructor I wouldn't totally agree that the pilot is more than half intelligent.   Sure, I've seen pilots do really stupid things in planes.     Mostly though, pilots receive a lot more training and evaluation.    I'd like to see the licensing requirements for cars be more inline with a Private Pilot Certificate.    Emergencies, understanding systems, basic physics, driving in various locals and weather etc.   

It wouldn't be that much of a time suck to require a large truck license.    I got my ATP, Saab 340 Type Rating and upgraded to Captain all with one check ride.     A specific large truck license could probably be completed in a weekend.    Hopefully, the biggest thing it would do is open up litigation for careless drivers of large vehicles.    It would essentially say "I have been told that my car is specifically more dangerous to other drivers than most cars, as such I have to operate it in a more conscientious manner.   If I cause harm to another person or vehicle through reckless/carelessness, I accept that my responsibility with be proportionally higher."    Hopefully, the easily
distracted soccer dad/mom would shy away and buy the minivan or Camry instead.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: LowER on September 14, 2014, 09:59:11 PM
Bogleheads is the penultimate low-cost (MMM-type) investment site on the net, period. 

LBYM is the motor; investing the rest efficiently is the drivetrain.

If you can ignore the noise at each, and glean the good from both, you'll be many miles ahead of nearly everyone around you.

I know that I have to do both well to get to my goals, and that's why I enjoy both sites so much.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: Posthumane on September 15, 2014, 11:05:46 AM
Greaper, I've always been a fan of needing higher licenses for larger/more dangerous vehicles. As you point out, the system works fairly well in aviation (although a taildragger endorsement is not required in Canada :P) and the military (where almost every vehicle requires its own qualification). I don't think it would go over very well with the general public though.

I've always been amazed that you can drive a class A motorhome the size of a bus here with just a car license and no additional training.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: dragoncar on September 15, 2014, 11:11:26 AM
Bogleheads is the penultimate low-cost (MMM-type) investment site on the net, period. 

LBYM is the motor; investing the rest efficiently is the drivetrain.

If you can ignore the noise at each, and glean the good from both, you'll be many miles ahead of nearly everyone around you.

I know that I have to do both well to get to my goals, and that's why I enjoy both sites so much.

So the ultimate low-cost (MMM-type) investment site on the net is... MMM?
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: FIPurpose on September 15, 2014, 12:57:21 PM
(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/G2y8Sx4B2Sk/0.jpg)
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: dragoncar on September 15, 2014, 01:24:34 PM
You keep using that word...

(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fzZNWqUJuA4/0.jpg)
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: CarDude on September 15, 2014, 08:33:12 PM
Just hopping in to comment on the car safety angle (because, you know, that's what I do). The US driving exam is a joke, and doesn't have cross-compatibility with those in a lot of other countries simply because it doesn't take much skill to pass. Also, in other countries with much lower death rates, not only are there fewer unnecessarily large vehicles on the roads, there are also much stricter restrictions against speeding and driving drunk, two things that are highly common in the US and contribute to much of our unnecessarily high driver death rates.

One quick reference for additional reading: http://thecarcrashdetective.com/2014/07/why-are-swedish-roads-so-safe.html
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: frugalnacho on September 16, 2014, 02:07:37 PM
While I agree that a Tahoe is a ridiculous vehicle for a small family, I would hate to restrict people's vehicle choices on principle. My fear would be that the majority opinion would rule and what would get banned would be small cars and motorcycles that are seen as "dangerous" because they don't offer the same protection to the occupants as larger cars with more safety features. In fact, it's already happing to an extent - try buying a new lightweight car without ABS, airbags, etc.

Flynlow and Forcus, nice to see there are some other 7 fans here. I'm in the process of building a Locost, though life is getting in the way as well for me so progress is slow.

An easy solution would be to require a higher license class for vehicles with certain characteristics.   Higher gross weight, bumper height, amount of seat belts etc.    People could be required to have specific training and evaluation in this class of vehicle.    The fines for offenses like speeding or distracted driving would also be higher.

Aviation requires this for things like high performance aircraft, tail draggers, complex aircraft etc.   You also need a type rating specific to an aircraft once you get over a certain weight threshold.

I believe this already exists.  You need a special license to operate large heavy machinery (garbage trucks, semis, buses).  If it's not large enough to require a specialized license they also have another restriction based on weight.  When I drive a company vehicle (a normal truck or van) and tow a trailer I am I required to have DOT certification (requires physical, eye test, and drug test) if the gross weight is over 10,000 lbs.

It seems like they already have a system, you just want to subdivide it further to separate a tahoe from a smaller more mustachian car. 
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: mlipps on September 16, 2014, 08:36:46 PM
Just hopping in to comment on the car safety angle (because, you know, that's what I do). The US driving exam is a joke, and doesn't have cross-compatibility with those in a lot of other countries simply because it doesn't take much skill to pass. Also, in other countries with much lower death rates, not only are there fewer unnecessarily large vehicles on the roads, there are also much stricter restrictions against speeding and driving drunk, two things that are highly common in the US and contribute to much of our unnecessarily high driver death rates.

One quick reference for additional reading: http://thecarcrashdetective.com/2014/07/why-are-swedish-roads-so-safe.html

I was absolutely floored to learn the other day that here in the great state of IL, one does not even need to take Driver's Ed if he or she is over 21 at the time of first getting his/her license. I assume that people first getting their license at that age are probably not learning to drive from mom or dad, so they probably need Driver's Ed MORE not less. Insanity.
Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: vivophoenix on September 17, 2014, 11:57:05 AM
Just hopping in to comment on the car safety angle (because, you know, that's what I do). The US driving exam is a joke, and doesn't have cross-compatibility with those in a lot of other countries simply because it doesn't take much skill to pass. Also, in other countries with much lower death rates, not only are there fewer unnecessarily large vehicles on the roads, there are also much stricter restrictions against speeding and driving drunk, two things that are highly common in the US and contribute to much of our unnecessarily high driver death rates.

One quick reference for additional reading: http://thecarcrashdetective.com/2014/07/why-are-swedish-roads-so-safe.html

I was absolutely floored to learn the other day that here in the great state of IL, one does not even need to take Driver's Ed if he or she is over 21 at the time of first getting his/her license. I assume that people first getting their license at that age are probably not learning to drive from mom or dad, so they probably need Driver's Ed MORE not less. Insanity.

what is so flooring about this? if you take an exam that involves driving and being graded it shouldn't matter who taught you to drive.

why do you assume at 21 mom and dad suddenly are less involved ?

by 21 they have had more time to be exposed to opportunities  to learn to drive, simple by the fact of being older.


Title: Re: From Bogleheads forum
Post by: frugalnacho on September 18, 2014, 09:13:03 AM
Just hopping in to comment on the car safety angle (because, you know, that's what I do). The US driving exam is a joke, and doesn't have cross-compatibility with those in a lot of other countries simply because it doesn't take much skill to pass. Also, in other countries with much lower death rates, not only are there fewer unnecessarily large vehicles on the roads, there are also much stricter restrictions against speeding and driving drunk, two things that are highly common in the US and contribute to much of our unnecessarily high driver death rates.

One quick reference for additional reading: http://thecarcrashdetective.com/2014/07/why-are-swedish-roads-so-safe.html

I was absolutely floored to learn the other day that here in the great state of IL, one does not even need to take Driver's Ed if he or she is over 21 at the time of first getting his/her license. I assume that people first getting their license at that age are probably not learning to drive from mom or dad, so they probably need Driver's Ed MORE not less. Insanity.

It's like that in michigan too, and I assume every other state.  Why should driver's ed matter if you can pass the test?  The whole point of driver's ed is to educate you so you can pass the driver's test.  The real problem is that the test is a joke with ridiculously low standards for whom they allow to drive.