Author Topic: Friend's New Truck  (Read 24375 times)

Slam

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Friend's New Truck
« on: April 30, 2015, 08:13:03 AM »
One of my friends from college got a brand new truck.  I don't know anything about trucks, but I assume it is at least a $50,000 truck, and I know it has a 2.5" receiver hitch.  But he keeps the receiver reducer sleeve in his glove box for when he actually needs to tow a realistic trailer with a 2" hitch.

He was showing me his truck and I jokingly asked him, "So how many gallons per mile does this thing get?"

He laughed it off and said about 18 mpg on the highway, about 14 around town.

Then my heart skipped a beat.  I at least feel slightly better about the fact that his work pays mileage when he is driving around for work related things.

SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2015, 02:30:01 PM »
My cousin commutes 50 miles in a 2012 Tundra. 20" wheels, bedliner, tonneau cover, etc.
At the end of his loan term, he will have more in it than I did in my first house.
I have another friend who buys a new truck every year. He makes $130k +, so I'm not so hard on him as my cousin who is probably less than 50k, but it is still a waste. I hope they both have a plan for later in life.

Syonyk

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2015, 03:39:24 PM »
Trucks don't lose much value in the first year or two.

Buy a new truck, drive it for a year, sell it private sale... you can have a new truck for relatively little a year.

SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2015, 03:55:00 PM »
Trucks don't lose much value in the first year or two.

Buy a new truck, drive it for a year, sell it private sale... you can have a new truck for relatively little a year.

Sure, or GM / Ford / Ram could raise incentives and tank the value on your $45,000 truck.
I'm much more comfortable with a <$10,000 car. It can only lose $10k in value.
Eating the sales and registration taxes on a new truck every 12-24 months isn't my idea of fun.

With the increase in insurance, lower MPG, etc, i can't see the value in having "nice new stuff" when "nice used stuff" is available and costs less.

Syonyk

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2015, 04:00:48 PM »
Sure. But if you start from the point of driving a new truck, replacing it after a year isn't actually that terrible a plan.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2015, 10:38:39 AM »
I wouldn't mind so much if the truck drivers would learn how to park.  I saw a Ford 250 yesterday not only taking up two parking spaces, but parked crooked so that the truck bed stuck out really far into the driving lane.

Syonyk

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2015, 12:59:19 PM »
I wouldn't mind so much if the truck drivers would learn how to park.  I saw a Ford 250 yesterday not only taking up two parking spaces, but parked crooked so that the truck bed stuck out really far into the driving lane.

Will the truck fit into any of the spaces to start with?  I normally take 2 spaces with mine, way in the back of the lot, because the alternative is to stick into the lane significantly, as nothing out here is sized for more than a compact car.

theoverlook

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2015, 02:20:25 PM »
Trucks don't lose much value in the first year or two.

Buy a new truck, drive it for a year, sell it private sale... you can have a new truck for relatively little a year.

I call bull. You're never getting the taxes back, so even just that on a $50k truck is $4k or so. Plus interest on the loan at say $2k or so.  Plus depreciation and you're looking at least $10k/year total which is very far from "relatively little."

Syonyk

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2015, 02:49:59 PM »
Depreciation is nearly flat on a new truck.

Taxes are a thing.

And how are you getting $2k in interest? That's 4% on a loan. Most are a lot lower.

SpicyMcHaggus

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 05:14:44 PM »
Depreciation is nearly flat on a new truck.

Taxes are a thing.

And how are you getting $2k in interest? That's 4% on a loan. Most are a lot lower.

Depreciation being flat is rare. Dealers are blowing out last years model with 0 miles for 5-8k under invoice all the time. There's no way you got deals better than that on a current model year (if you are, you should be flipping it for profit in the first month). Then there's the tax($2000) and registration($120), wear and tear, interest($1000 at 2% apr), poor MPG($500 more than you'd pay in a car, minimum) and the risk that you can't find a buyer.

Justify it however you want, but it's still a silly idea unless you're hauling a 5000# trailer on a daily basis for work (which you don't need a brand new 50k truck for).


hybrid

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2015, 02:11:07 PM »
Oh Lord, my brother just got a two year old F-150, a very nice one at that. I can't even freaking imagine, the thing cost almost as much as my last two Mazdas, and those were brand new. The kicker was how "liberating" he feels like his truck is.

I have a 96 Mazda B2300 with 175000 miles that can haul everything my brother would in his new toy. What he describes as liberation I look at as a sentence.

Syonyk

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2015, 02:32:58 PM »
...a very nice one at that.

Go try and find a recent truck that's not a "very nice one."  I'll wait. :)

(the vast majority of trucks sold in the last decade are "very nice" by most standards - the stripped out work trucks aren't for sale used until they've been entirely worn out)

Scandium

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2015, 11:32:55 AM »
...a very nice one at that.

Go try and find a recent truck that's not a "very nice one."  I'll wait. :)

(the vast majority of trucks sold in the last decade are "very nice" by most standards - the stripped out work trucks aren't for sale used until they've been entirely worn out)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0klZpwlgwOw

t;dr: the best-selling vehicle in the world, the Ford F150 is a piece of shit! [Jeremy Clackson]

I don't understand why so many american males have this insane urge to pay $50k to drive these things. Not being american I view trucks as utility vehicles. Used for construction work, or logging operations, not driving to the office. In my mind it would be like driving a tractor or front loader around town, simply silly.

A colleague just got a RAM 1500, to drive ~30 mi on the bumper to bumper interstate to a business park. He does not own a farm as far as I know. But hey it was a whole 2 (!) years old, and only x hundred/month with 6 year financing blah blah blah.. I stopped listening
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 11:49:39 AM by Scandium »

theoverlook

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2015, 11:40:31 AM »
Depreciation is nearly flat on a new truck.

Taxes are a thing.

And how are you getting $2k in interest? That's 4% on a loan. Most are a lot lower.

MSRP on a completely base 2015 F150 is $26,110.  I can buy a 2014 F150 with less than 5,000 miles for $20,995 here:http://columbus.craigslist.org/cto/4995317097.html

So depreciation is at least $5,115 assuming you barely drive the thing.  You can bet it would be more if you had more options, more miles, and any wear and tear.

I consider $426/mo lost to depreciation alone a ton of money.  Plus taxes, plus interest, you're out as I said nearly $10k/year.  Enough to pay cash for a decent and very reliable truck and never have a payment for as long as you can maintain it.

libertarian4321

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2015, 01:00:21 PM »
I wouldn't mind so much if the truck drivers would learn how to park.  I saw a Ford 250 yesterday not only taking up two parking spaces, but parked crooked so that the truck bed stuck out really far into the driving lane.

Yeah, because those who drive cars never do this...

libertarian4321

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2015, 01:45:37 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0klZpwlgwOw

t;dr: the best-selling vehicle in the world, the Ford F150 is a piece of shit! [Jeremy Clackson]

I don't understand why so many american males have this insane urge to pay $50k to drive these things. Not being american I view trucks as utility vehicles. Used for construction work, or logging operations, not driving to the office. In my mind it would be like driving a tractor or front loader around town, simply silly.

So Clarkson says that the Brits are "just to sophisticated" to buy a pickup.

Really?

A nation that has been in continuous decline for at least 115 years, produces NOTHING other than the occasional sheep and some pretty good cheese, is a technological backwater, worships an inbred "royal" family (seriously?  It's 2015, folks, might be time to get rid of those ridiculous twits),  still largely clings to an archaic socio economic based system upon who your great great grandparents were (as opposed to you actual ability- no wonder Britain has been fading for so long, while the USA, which is largely merit based, thrives), and goes berserk over "football," a sport they invented (but can't play worth a damn) is just sooooo sophisticated.

My ancestors had the sense to leave the fading British Empire well over 100 years ago to find better opportunities in the USA.  I love to visit.  It's nice to see a country that largely hasn't changed in 100 years.  It's slow, quaint, cute.  But far from important.

Clarkson is a buffoon.  An entertaining buffoon, to be sure (well, he's entertaining when he's not out bullying/slugging people he disagrees with, anyway).  Top Gear is one of the few UK shows I actually watch on occasion.

BTW, that big, dumpy, blowhard, bully, Brit (Clarkson) also hates bicyclists.

FWIW, I don't drive and F150, I prefer my Chevy Silverado.

Final point, that extremely tricked out F150 is NOT one you will find on the roads very often.  Not a lot of people (Americans or otherwise) drive 380+ HP vehicles.  Frankly, if an American were to spend that kind of money on a pickup, he'd probably just buy the F350 instead.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 01:51:40 PM by libertarian4321 »

Scandium

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2015, 02:47:46 PM »

A nation that has been in continuous decline for at least 115 years, produces NOTHING other than the occasional sheep and some pretty good cheese, is a technological backwater, worships an inbred "royal" family (seriously?  It's 2015, folks, might be time to get rid of those ridiculous twits),  still largely clings to an archaic socio economic based system upon who your great great grandparents were (as opposed to you actual ability- no wonder Britain has been fading for so long, while the USA, which is largely merit based, thrives), and goes berserk over "football," a sport they invented (but can't play worth a damn) is just sooooo sophisticated.

My ancestors had the sense to leave the fading British Empire well over 100 years ago to find better opportunities in the USA.  I love to visit.  It's nice to see a country that largely hasn't changed in 100 years.  It's slow, quaint, cute.  But far from important.


wow. I guess it's how important this kind of proxy dick-measuring competition I that I just don't understand, despite being male and everything.

I agree with your points about the Imperium. The east india company isn't doing so great these days, but I'm not sure how that pertains to the fact that the dashboard of the F150 is shoddily put together, for a $50,000 vehicle. A bike hating douchebag like clackson, who's boner is inversely proportional to MPG of car hates it; you know it has to be pretty bad!

If Staling himself made a video showing how his Ikea furniture is just cheap POS MDF boards I think I could still agree with him, despite his other failings.

shotgunwilly

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2015, 03:25:44 PM »
Depreciation is nearly flat on a new truck.

Taxes are a thing.

And how are you getting $2k in interest? That's 4% on a loan. Most are a lot lower.

Huh? You must be delusional.  The instant you drive a new truck off the lot you're losing a huge chunk of change.  You could try to sell it the next day and have to take a $5,000 hit. 

GetItRight

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2015, 03:31:11 PM »
Final point, that extremely tricked out F150 is NOT one you will find on the roads very often.  Not a lot of people (Americans or otherwise) drive 380+ HP vehicles.  Frankly, if an American were to spend that kind of money on a pickup, he'd probably just buy the F350 instead.

To throw fuel on the fire, my truck's engine makes well over 380 HP, as does my car's engine. Boat is a bit less than that. 400 HP is a solid ballpark for a cheap reliable engine that is mild enough to be suitable for driving every day and offer decent fuel economy. Compact cars can be quite peppy with 300 HP engines and get around 30 MPG if built for economy. Regardless, I have far less into all those vehicles than the cost of a new Prius, and if it helps, my motorcycle is under 100 HP. I'll wait for the flames?

Making Cookies

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2015, 03:44:02 PM »
Look at the new Dodge V-6 turbo diesel. Its a crewcab 2WD full sized pickup. Gets 30 mpg. Pretty impressive for that size of vehicle. They are using Fiat's diesel.

The Mercedes (formerly Dodge) Sprinter van is big and gets good mileage too considering it's size.

Drove a Ford Transit V-? rental van recently. 18 mpg. An older Econoline van also on the same trip got ~12 mpg.

MPG is getting better even for the big vehicles. Next vehicle I buy will be something getting 40+ mpg. I don't expect "cheap" gas to last forever. When the Saudis are ready they'll close the taps a little and the price will climb again. They are merely maintaining the addiction to oil we have.

nereo

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2015, 04:12:17 PM »
Final point, that extremely tricked out F150 is NOT one you will find on the roads very often.  Not a lot of people (Americans or otherwise) drive 380+ HP vehicles.  Frankly, if an American were to spend that kind of money on a pickup, he'd probably just buy the F350 instead.

To throw fuel on the fire, my truck's engine makes well over 380 HP, as does my car's engine. Boat is a bit less than that. 400 HP is a solid ballpark for a cheap reliable engine that is mild enough to be suitable for driving every day and offer decent fuel economy. Compact cars can be quite peppy with 300 HP engines and get around 30 MPG if built for economy. Regardless, I have far less into all those vehicles than the cost of a new Prius, and if it helps, my motorcycle is under 100 HP. I'll wait for the flames?
holy cow that's a lot of horses.  Other than shits-and-giggles, why do you need that much power in a compact? 

rocketpj

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2015, 04:49:27 PM »
Every summer when I worked in the bush I'd be given a brand new, shiny pickup truck (leased).  After 4 months and 25-30,000 km of almost 100% deactivated logging roads, heavy mud and brutal terrain, the truck would be on the verge of complete collapse.  Because these trucks are not built to actually do hard things, just to look they they can.  Chev, Ford, Dodge, all the same - not up to the tasks we gave them over even a single summer.

We would then have it detailed, and return the lease.  The dealer would then ship the truck down to the US as sell it as an 'almost new' pickup. 

Moral of the story - if you are buying a used pickup, especially a 4x4, be very careful. 

Fastfwd

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2015, 08:02:04 AM »
Depreciation is nearly flat on a new truck.

Not where I live. Bought an F250 for 70% of the original price when it was just 3 years old and low mileage. Just like any other car depreciation is worse in the first few years and then levels off. Right now after 1.5 years it still sells for the price I paid for it but I would probably lose 1-2k$ to dealer's profit if I want to sell it quick.

I drove it 9000 miles last summer towing my RV and visiting the national parks and other places with the family. Then drove it about 500 miles all of winter just going to the train station. Right now I am biking to work and the truck sits at home waiting for vacation season.

lisahi

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2015, 12:28:45 PM »
I wouldn't mind so much if the truck drivers would learn how to park.  I saw a Ford 250 yesterday not only taking up two parking spaces, but parked crooked so that the truck bed stuck out really far into the driving lane.

Yeah, because those who drive cars never do this...

Of course they do. But percentage-wise, at least where I live, trucks offend more often because they are built too large for the city's and businesses' already-built-and-paid-for infrastructure. But I live in Texas where trucks are a way of life. Admittedly, I both rationally and irrationally dislike them. I'm fine with work trucks (used for actual work) and ranch trucks (used for actual ranching). But most of the work trucks I see around town are sensibly-sized flatbeds, not these huge, hulking shiny monsters.

The huge, hulking shiny monsters generally belong to the suburban cowboys who have no need for a truck--other than that one trip to Costco a year when they buy a big-screen TV and need to haul it home.

There are currently more trucks than cars in my work's parking lot. Most are nearly new; most are nearly spotless; and most take up almost 100% of the parking space they are in (or are taking up 2 spaces). That means very little room to open and close car doors for the poor little car flanked on both sides by these ridiculous things.

I won't even get started on these trucks parking on both sides of suburban neighborhood streets outside of homes. Ugh.

Giro

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2015, 12:38:15 PM »
I thought that trucks were a colossal waste of money until I actually ran the numbers.  My husband bought a new GMC Sierra All-Terrain last year.  He bought the GMC and not the Chevy because you can change your headlights in the GMC without tearing the entire front end off of the truck. 

Anywho....he had a 2005 Silverado that he bought new.  The Silverado was starting to make noises and some things were going out.  Yes, it was still a nice truck.  Yes, we could have put more money into it, but the last problem was at the shop three times and still wasn't fixed.  He got fed up.   They gave him over $10,000 for that truck on trade.  He got GMS pricing because his mother retired from GM.  He got all of the incentives and military discounts.  He wrote a check for $30,000 all in.  The sticker on that truck was $52k.  If he drives it for 10 years and gets $10k out of it at that time, it will be rather cheap transportation.  Also, he hauls gear around for his side gig so he really does need a truck.

You just can't really buy decent used trucks for cheap. 


nereo

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2015, 02:05:23 PM »
I thought that trucks were a colossal waste of money until I actually ran the numbers.  My husband bought a new GMC Sierra All-Terrain last year.  He bought the GMC and not the Chevy because you can change your headlights in the GMC without tearing the entire front end off of the truck. 

Anywho....he had a 2005 Silverado that he bought new.  The Silverado was starting to make noises and some things were going out.  Yes, it was still a nice truck.  Yes, we could have put more money into it, but the last problem was at the shop three times and still wasn't fixed.  He got fed up.   They gave him over $10,000 for that truck on trade.  He got GMS pricing because his mother retired from GM.  He got all of the incentives and military discounts.  He wrote a check for $30,000 all in.  The sticker on that truck was $52k.  If he drives it for 10 years and gets $10k out of it at that time, it will be rather cheap transportation.  Also, he hauls gear around for his side gig so he really does need a truck.

I'm absolutely baffled that you can look at those set of circumstances and conclude that it isn't a "colossal waste of money" and how it can possibly be "rather cheap transportation".  What the MSRP (list price) is is irrelevant. He paid $30k cash plus a $10k trade in for a new truck that gets an estimated 16mpg. Assuming $3/gallon fuel that's 18/mile; adding in the $30k he shelled out over an optimistic 200k miles and thats another 15/mile in depreciation.  Repairs, tires, etc and he's easily in the mid 40/mile before factoring in insurance (which will be more on an expensive, shiny new truck).

This is one expensive truck.  I'm also curious what gear he hauls around for a side gig (not his full-time job) that requires such a behemoth. 

Syonyk

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2015, 02:11:18 PM »
If you start with a requirement to have a truck (which, as much as it's not a popular view on this forum, does exist), it's often more efficient to just have a truck than to have two vehicles, especially if you're biking around a lot when not hauling stuff.  The fixed costs of a second, efficient vehicle take a lot of driving to recoup.

nereo

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2015, 02:23:12 PM »
If you start with a requirement to have a truck (which, as much as it's not a popular view on this forum, does exist), it's often more efficient to just have a truck than to have two vehicles, especially if you're biking around a lot when not hauling stuff.  The fixed costs of a second, efficient vehicle take a lot of driving to recoup.
Of course - the insurance alone makes it prohibitively expensive to own two vehicles, as has been discussed in several threads already.  But buying a full-sized new pickup can never be considered "cheap" transportation, and it certainly doesn't have 'nearly flat" depreciation.

Giro

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2015, 02:31:11 PM »
I thought that trucks were a colossal waste of money until I actually ran the numbers.  My husband bought a new GMC Sierra All-Terrain last year.  He bought the GMC and not the Chevy because you can change your headlights in the GMC without tearing the entire front end off of the truck. 

Anywho....he had a 2005 Silverado that he bought new.  The Silverado was starting to make noises and some things were going out.  Yes, it was still a nice truck.  Yes, we could have put more money into it, but the last problem was at the shop three times and still wasn't fixed.  He got fed up.   They gave him over $10,000 for that truck on trade.  He got GMS pricing because his mother retired from GM.  He got all of the incentives and military discounts.  He wrote a check for $30,000 all in.  The sticker on that truck was $52k.  If he drives it for 10 years and gets $10k out of it at that time, it will be rather cheap transportation.  Also, he hauls gear around for his side gig so he really does need a truck.

I'm absolutely baffled that you can look at those set of circumstances and conclude that it isn't a "colossal waste of money" and how it can possibly be "rather cheap transportation".  What the MSRP (list price) is is irrelevant. He paid $30k cash plus a $10k trade in for a new truck that gets an estimated 16mpg. Assuming $3/gallon fuel that's 18/mile; adding in the $30k he shelled out over an optimistic 200k miles and thats another 15/mile in depreciation.  Repairs, tires, etc and he's easily in the mid 40/mile before factoring in insurance (which will be more on an expensive, shiny new truck).

This is one expensive truck.  I'm also curious what gear he hauls around for a side gig (not his full-time job) that requires such a behemoth.

part time musician.  so.... speakers, guitars, amps and whatnot.  The gear all fits in the back of his truck and he puts carpet down making it pretty easy to slide everything in and out and keep it safe while traveling.  We do deduct mileage expenses for practices, shows, marketing, etc. 

Yes, spending money on vehicles is not popular on this forum but it was the best option for us.  It gives him reliable transportation that is easy to load and unload.  He will drive it for at least 10 years worry free. 


kendallf

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2015, 02:40:35 PM »

part time musician.  so.... speakers, guitars, amps and whatnot.  The gear all fits in the back of his truck and he puts carpet down making it pretty easy to slide everything in and out and keep it safe while traveling.  We do deduct mileage expenses for practices, shows, marketing, etc. 

Yes, spending money on vehicles is not popular on this forum but it was the best option for us.  It gives him reliable transportation that is easy to load and unload.  He will drive it for at least 10 years worry free.

Trailer.  Put a receiver hitch on a small, fuel economic car and you can haul more than most people ever put in a pickup bed.  Plus, it's much easier to load and unload as it's lower to the ground.  I'm towing a trailer around with my 2004 Prius, for chrissake.  :-)

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2015, 02:42:04 PM »
I thought that trucks were a colossal waste of money until I actually ran the numbers.  My husband bought a new GMC Sierra All-Terrain last year.  He bought the GMC and not the Chevy because you can change your headlights in the GMC without tearing the entire front end off of the truck. 

Anywho....he had a 2005 Silverado that he bought new.  The Silverado was starting to make noises and some things were going out.  Yes, it was still a nice truck.  Yes, we could have put more money into it, but the last problem was at the shop three times and still wasn't fixed.  He got fed up.   They gave him over $10,000 for that truck on trade.  He got GMS pricing because his mother retired from GM.  He got all of the incentives and military discounts.  He wrote a check for $30,000 all in.  The sticker on that truck was $52k.  If he drives it for 10 years and gets $10k out of it at that time, it will be rather cheap transportation.  Also, he hauls gear around for his side gig so he really does need a truck.

You just can't really buy decent used trucks for cheap.
I have a buddy who does landscaping full-time in an old Ranger he bought for $2k. He hauls a riding mower and piles of other gear in the bed and on a trailer. Not only does he get 50% better gas mileage, but he could buy one every single year and still come out ahead. Your idea of "cheap" must be a bit different than ours, and your claim about "no good used trucks" is just totally silly.

Commuting in a truck is a waste of at least a couple hundred a month for most situations, even before depreciation, so I'm curious what he makes on the side gig and how many days a month it happens. If it's just a weekend or two, he's probably wasting enough gas to pay for a rental when he needs it. More days, more money, it might work out and it might not. It just seems you're keeping your analysis deliberately oversimplified to ensure a happy conclusion. It's suspicious.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2015, 02:49:10 PM »
Trailer.  Put a receiver hitch on a small, fuel economic car and you can haul more than most people ever put in a pickup bed.  Plus, it's much easier to load and unload as it's lower to the ground.  I'm towing a trailer around with my 2004 Prius, for chrissake.  :-)

You live in the flatlands, I'm guessing?  I'm fairly sure the Prius doesn't come with a tow rating, so you're into the "experimental" category, and probably in questionable areas if you get into an accident while towing.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2015, 02:49:48 PM »

I'm absolutely baffled that you can look at those set of circumstances and conclude that it isn't a "colossal waste of money" and how it can possibly be "rather cheap transportation".  What the MSRP (list price) is is irrelevant. He paid $30k cash plus a $10k trade in for a new truck that gets an estimated 16mpg. Assuming $3/gallon fuel that's 18/mile; adding in the $30k he shelled out over an optimistic 200k miles and thats another 15/mile in depreciation.  Repairs, tires, etc and he's easily in the mid 40/mile before factoring in insurance (which will be more on an expensive, shiny new truck).

This is one expensive truck.  I'm also curious what gear he hauls around for a side gig (not his full-time job) that requires such a behemoth.

part time musician.  so.... speakers, guitars, amps and whatnot.  The gear all fits in the back of his truck and he puts carpet down making it pretty easy to slide everything in and out and keep it safe while traveling.  We do deduct mileage expenses for practices, shows, marketing, etc. 

Yes, spending money on vehicles is not popular on this forum but it was the best option for us.  It gives him reliable transportation that is easy to load and unload.  He will drive it for at least 10 years worry free.
Look - I've got no problems with people spending money on things that make them happy.  That's what money is for.  However, I do take issue when someone tries to pull some bat-shit crazy line out like how a full-sized pickup is a cheap form of transportation.  No, it isn't.  And if you are saying it's "worry free" that's because you are fortunate enough not to worry about money.

As others have suggested there are far more economical choices, like a trailer, a wagon or a van.  All cost less and allow you to lock up the gear.  Even large amps and speakers are not prohibitively heavy - I moved around of band equipment plenty in my 20s.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2015, 02:52:09 PM »
You live in the flatlands, I'm guessing?  I'm fairly sure the Prius doesn't come with a tow rating, so you're into the "experimental" category, and probably in questionable areas if you get into an accident while towing.
Towing with a vehicle like that could cause warranty issues (if it were still in warranty), but insurance is unlikely to care.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2015, 02:53:52 PM »
So much wrong here...

I prefer to spend under 5k in CASH. keep it 2 years. that means it cost about 250/ month. That's an average car payment. Any time it lasts over 2 years it is a FREE CAR.

50k trucks are for people who can't do math.  Losing 2k / yr in value is just silly no matter who you are.

GetItRight

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2015, 03:00:21 PM »
Final point, that extremely tricked out F150 is NOT one you will find on the roads very often.  Not a lot of people (Americans or otherwise) drive 380+ HP vehicles.  Frankly, if an American were to spend that kind of money on a pickup, he'd probably just buy the F350 instead.

To throw fuel on the fire, my truck's engine makes well over 380 HP, as does my car's engine. Boat is a bit less than that. 400 HP is a solid ballpark for a cheap reliable engine that is mild enough to be suitable for driving every day and offer decent fuel economy. Compact cars can be quite peppy with 300 HP engines and get around 30 MPG if built for economy. Regardless, I have far less into all those vehicles than the cost of a new Prius, and if it helps, my motorcycle is under 100 HP. I'll wait for the flames?
holy cow that's a lot of horses.  Other than shits-and-giggles, why do you need that much power in a compact?

Doesn't seem like a lot to me. I've always driven 60s vehicles so a small block putting out 300 HP is not much more than how the higher output engines came from the factory. The reasons for that power level are of course fun, but also because it costs about the same to build a 300-325 HP engine as it does to build a 200 HP engine. May as well have more power for the same price. You can push a taller rear axle ratio and overdrive gear to keep RPM down, getting to that sweet spot of around 30 highway MPG or in some cases closer to 40 MPG and still having good acceleration. If you don't have the power to run 2000 RPM or less at highway speed you'll be wasting a lot of gas. Another thing to keep in mind is compact cars or the 60s and 70s are much larger (practical, comfortable, capable) than new cars, more comparable to a new midsize car. They are less aerodynamic so takes more power to push at highway speed, but also typically weigh about 1000 lbs less than new subcompacts (fuel savings).

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2015, 03:13:34 PM »
You live in the flatlands, I'm guessing?  I'm fairly sure the Prius doesn't come with a tow rating, so you're into the "experimental" category, and probably in questionable areas if you get into an accident while towing.
Towing with a vehicle like that could cause warranty issues (if it were still in warranty), but insurance is unlikely to care.

Yes, flatlands <-- see Jacksonville, FL under my pic.  I concur that insurance is unlikely to care, as long as my vehicle meets the statutary requirements for what I'm doing (i.e., properly mounted hitch, trailer that doesn't exceed hitch rating, lights if necessary, etc.

I mentioned the Prius to make a point of how ridiculous the "I need a giant pickup" thing is.  No, Toyota doesn't recommend towing with the Prius, but you can buy a perfectly serviceable Class 1 hitch from several manufacturers, and it does in fact tow a small utility trailer quite well. 

My tow rig for years has been my 1994 Lexus SC300, which I used to move my ~1000 lb. TIG welder, all of the tear off debris from my recent roofing job on one of my houses, and any number of other jobs too heavy or dirty for most people's pristine pickups.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2015, 03:14:40 PM »
holy cow that's a lot of horses.  Other than shits-and-giggles, why do you need that much power in a compact?

Doesn't seem like a lot to me. I've always driven 60s vehicles so a small block putting out 300 HP is not much more than how the higher output engines came from the factory. The reasons for that power level are of course fun, but also because it costs about the same to build a 300-325 HP engine as it does to build a 200 HP engine. May as well have more power for the same price. You can push a taller rear axle ratio and overdrive gear to keep RPM down, getting to that sweet spot of around 30 highway MPG or in some cases closer to 40 MPG and still having good acceleration. If you don't have the power to run 2000 RPM or less at highway speed you'll be wasting a lot of gas. Another thing to keep in mind is compact cars or the 60s and 70s are much larger (practical, comfortable, capable) than new cars, more comparable to a new midsize car. They are less aerodynamic so takes more power to push at highway speed, but also typically weigh about 1000 lbs less than new subcompacts (fuel savings).
Interesting conversation.  I understand some about gear ratios, but I'm still scratching my head how having more HP can have equivalent fuel economy. 
I live in a city though and what I find attractive about the newer cars is just how compact they are without feeling cramped inside.  For me total length (with shorter being better) is attractive to me, as is fuel economy.  I can't relate to cars from the 60-70s being 'comfortable' - but that's probably because I only have memories of my grandparents old station-wagons to compare it to, which were decidedly uncomfortable. 
What about the value of ABS, airbags and other safety features?  It's hard to deny that fatalities-per-accident has gone down in recent decades as fewer people perish in car crashes.  I've been lead to believe that's due to advances in automobiles (which in turn has made them much heavier).  Do you have a different take?

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2015, 03:39:57 PM »
Interesting conversation.  I understand some about gear ratios, but I'm still scratching my head how having more HP can have equivalent fuel economy.

A higher horsepower engine can typically push a given load at lower RPM.  An awful lot of the power of an otto cycle gasoline engine goes to pumping losses and frictional losses, which are proportional (at some exponential value) to RPM.

Corvettes, as an example, frequently see high 20s to low 30s for fuel economy on the highway if you're doing something resembling the speed limit.  Yeah, they've got a huge V8, but they're aerodynamic, and the engine is loafing along at 1000-1200 RPM on the highway at a fairly high manifold pressure.  It's nicely efficient there.

GetItRight

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2015, 05:46:53 PM »
Interesting conversation.  I understand some about gear ratios, but I'm still scratching my head how having more HP can have equivalent fuel economy. 
I live in a city though and what I find attractive about the newer cars is just how compact they are without feeling cramped inside.  For me total length (with shorter being better) is attractive to me, as is fuel economy.  I can't relate to cars from the 60-70s being 'comfortable' - but that's probably because I only have memories of my grandparents old station-wagons to compare it to, which were decidedly uncomfortable. 
What about the value of ABS, airbags and other safety features?  It's hard to deny that fatalities-per-accident has gone down in recent decades as fewer people perish in car crashes.  I've been lead to believe that's due to advances in automobiles (which in turn has made them much heavier).  Do you have a different take?

As Syonyk said, more power and torque means you can run a lower gear ratio so the engine turns less RPM at any given speed. Some of the tricks we use to get more power efficiently are higher compression ratios, polished pistons and combustion chambers, tight quench distances and grooves in the quench pad. These help to run more compression on pump gas which varies from 91 to 93 octane depending on your region. Also high initial timing and aggressive timing curves which gets the most push down on the piston on each power stroke out of the amount of gas in the cylinder. Ported heads that flow more efficiently. Cam profiles selected for torque and dynamic compression target. So much that goes into building an engine that will make big power AND be fuel efficient... Meaning low brake specific fuel consumption (lbs of fuel per HP per hour), specifically at your target cruise RPM. Less efficiency at higher RPM and power levels doesn't matter as it's only used when you want or need it. Many of these decisions are just appropriate build choices and time to blueprint an engine vs just assemble parts, and others are choices between several different parts that act wildly differently but cost about the same.

For me 60s and 70s cars are most comfortable and the least stressful to operate, as well as most trucks into the 80s as trucks lagged behind cars with the modern "features". I don't see how a large plush bench seat can be uncomfortable, along with plenty of head and leg room. New cars feel very tiny inside and constricting to me. I am tall so often do not have enough head room in new cars. I dislike all the electronics and complexities. It means higher failure rates, less reliability, and more time consuming and expensive repairs. No thanks.

As for safety, I believe new cars which insulate the driver from the road encourage bad driving habits. ABS is a crutch for people who don't know how to threshhold brake and my observation among younger drivers is it encourages tailgating and late hard braking. Airbags are only useful if you get into a wreck. Being highly aware and playing the "what if" game of always plotting an escape if someone does something stupid trains yourself to make good immediate reactions to avoid wrecks. New cars have terrible visibility, wide A/B/C pillars, small windows, high doors, huge headrests on all seats, etc. and small mirrors that often appear to zoom in on a small area. This is extremely unsafe and increases likelihood of wrecks from not seeing other vehicles and being unaware of your surroundings. When I have to drive a rental or newer car it is an extremely stressful experience for me as I cannot see anything and there is no road feel, just total detachment from the task at hand. I also don't care for all the fancy luxury features and confusing controls on new cars. Very confusing and distracting. Accident avoidance is far preferable to me than surviving a more likely accident, maybe with permanent or expensive injuries.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2015, 07:52:52 PM »


You just can't really buy decent used trucks for cheap.


This is simply not right. You can justify buying a new truck all you want but you can always find a decent used truck for cheap if you're willing to look. Nine years ago I bought an '86 diesel F250 for $2200 which I didn't consider any kind of crazy good deal. I started my trash hauling business with it and now it's my mowing truck for my side business of cutting grass. In nine years of hard hauling and pulling all it's needed besides normal fluids and filters is new tires, a new clutch, and glow plugs. I laugh every day I'm mowing when I see my competitors pulling their mowers with their pristine $50k trucks.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2015, 08:16:48 PM »
I thought that trucks were a colossal waste of money until I actually ran the numbers.  My husband bought a new GMC Sierra All-Terrain last year.  He bought the GMC and not the Chevy because you can change your headlights in the GMC without tearing the entire front end off of the truck. 

Anywho....he had a 2005 Silverado that he bought new.  The Silverado was starting to make noises and some things were going out.  Yes, it was still a nice truck.  Yes, we could have put more money into it, but the last problem was at the shop three times and still wasn't fixed.  He got fed up.   They gave him over $10,000 for that truck on trade.  He got GMS pricing because his mother retired from GM.  He got all of the incentives and military discounts.  He wrote a check for $30,000 all in.  The sticker on that truck was $52k.  If he drives it for 10 years and gets $10k out of it at that time, it will be rather cheap transportation.  Also, he hauls gear around for his side gig so he really does need a truck.

You just can't really buy decent used trucks for cheap.
You can't put "cheap transportation" and "He wrote a check for $30k" in the same story!

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2015, 08:58:48 PM »
Nine years ago I bought an '86 diesel F250 for $2200...

Nine years ago was before Cash for Clunkers utterly destroyed a generation's worth of used cars.

I drove $100-$400 beaters in college.  A fancy car was $2k.  They do not exist anymore.  Enough used cars were destroyed that the market is entirely distorted, and those cheap deals are no longer out there.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2015, 09:02:52 PM »
Nine years ago I bought an '86 diesel F250 for $2200...

Nine years ago was before Cash for Clunkers utterly destroyed a generation's worth of used cars.

I drove $100-$400 beaters in college.  A fancy car was $2k.  They do not exist anymore.  Enough used cars were destroyed that the market is entirely distorted, and those cheap deals are no longer out there.


A fancy car was $2k nine years ago?

So because of Cash for Clunkers we all have to buy $50k trucks?

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2015, 09:09:33 PM »
For me, $2k was sure fancy.  AC and everything!

But my point is that the market is not what it was a decade ago.

You don't need to buy $50k trucks, but $2k running trucks aren't really a thing anymore in most areas.

Turnbull

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2015, 09:13:20 PM »
So buy a $4k or $5k truck. I just used mine as an example. I said you can get good cheap used trucks. I stand by that.

Syonyk

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2015, 09:15:18 PM »
Ok.

They're still hard to find.  Anything that doesn't require major mechanical or body work seems to start around $10k.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2015, 10:08:08 PM »
Nine years ago was before Cash for Clunkers utterly destroyed a generation's worth of used cars.

I drove $100-$400 beaters in college.  A fancy car was $2k.  They do not exist anymore.  Enough used cars were destroyed that the market is entirely distorted, and those cheap deals are no longer out there.

Cheap beaters will be making a return. Cash for Clunkers was one reason, the other reason was the price of scrap steel was through the roof. October 2014, steel was $220/ton. When I was at the yard in March it was down to $110/ton. I'm starting to see sub-$500 project cars for the first time in 5 years and I'm getting giddy.

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2015, 10:15:03 PM »
Ooh.  That would be very welcome.  I'd like to do 24 hours of Lemons at some point, and right now, I don't think I could score a $500 car at all.

Giro

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Re: Friend's New Truck
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2015, 06:44:07 AM »
So much wrong here...

I prefer to spend under 5k in CASH. keep it 2 years. that means it cost about 250/ month. That's an average car payment. Any time it lasts over 2 years it is a FREE CAR.

50k trucks are for people who can't do math.  Losing 2k / yr in value is just silly no matter who you are.

I just want to point out the math here because of the irony of accusations of 50k trucks are for people who can't do math.  If your 5k car lasts 2 years that is 25k over 10 years.  If I pay $40k for a $50k truck and get $10k out of it in 12 years that is exactly the same cost as your 5k car.

carry on.