Author Topic: Free shipping was not free after all  (Read 20396 times)

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2016, 12:31:56 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

Metric Mouse

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2016, 12:35:06 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

My 10-week old daughter can not. Is there something wrong with her?

Dollar Slice

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2016, 01:18:55 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

What is the point of saying things like this? You end up just excluding everyone who isn't like you. All humans in the world can grip 40 lbs. OK, healthy humans. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65 who are above a certain percentile for size/weight. Etc. etc. Who cares? How is this relevant to anything? Why not just say: People have different abilities and they should do the best they can with what they've got.

mtn

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2016, 01:24:37 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

What is the point of saying things like this? You end up just excluding everyone who isn't like you. All humans in the world can grip 40 lbs. OK, healthy humans. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65 who are above a certain percentile for size/weight. Etc. etc. Who cares? How is this relevant to anything? Why not just say: People have different abilities and they should do the best they can with what they've got.

Because it is research, and it can contribute to other studies.

Dollar Slice

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2016, 01:33:30 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

What is the point of saying things like this? You end up just excluding everyone who isn't like you. All humans in the world can grip 40 lbs. OK, healthy humans. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65 who are above a certain percentile for size/weight. Etc. etc. Who cares? How is this relevant to anything? Why not just say: People have different abilities and they should do the best they can with what they've got.

Because it is research, and it can contribute to other studies.

Are you suggesting that Guses is participating in this thread and making comments like that because s/he is doing research? Or did you completely misunderstand what I was responding to?

mtn

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2016, 01:37:34 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

What is the point of saying things like this? You end up just excluding everyone who isn't like you. All humans in the world can grip 40 lbs. OK, healthy humans. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65 who are above a certain percentile for size/weight. Etc. etc. Who cares? How is this relevant to anything? Why not just say: People have different abilities and they should do the best they can with what they've got.

Because it is research, and it can contribute to other studies.

Are you suggesting that Guses is participating in this thread and making comments like that because s/he is doing research? Or did you completely misunderstand what I was responding to?

Ah. Not completely, but did miss the point.

I thought you were referring to the study in the earlier posts.

Gin1984

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2016, 02:39:54 PM »
Quote
I probably am stronger than most women

If you're an average male, you are  stronger than all but the most elite female athletes. The quantitative difference is huge.

Measured here is grip strength, which is a fairly good proxy for upper body strength:



Here's an interesting Reddit thread on the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/almost_all_men_are_stronger_than_almost_all_women/
Which grip strength, short term or long term?  Can you link to the actual study?  F max may not be what people are thinking it is

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2016, 03:44:15 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

What is the point of saying things like this? You end up just excluding everyone who isn't like you. All humans in the world can grip 40 lbs. OK, healthy humans. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65. OK, healthy humans between the ages of 18 and 65 who are above a certain percentile for size/weight. Etc. etc. Who cares? How is this relevant to anything? Why not just say: People have different abilities and they should do the best they can with what they've got.

Are you asking about this specific reply or have you read all of my responses in this thread? Frankly, I am reading my response and I don't understand your reaction to it.

If the former, I was adding to what I had said earlier.

If the latter, I think it is relevant to the discussion as a 24 inch monitor is much less than 40 lbs and I and other posters can't see how someone is able to carry a box accross a street (presumably in their arms) and then be unable to lift the same box 8 inches. So maybe we are missing something and hence we are questioning the OP.




Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2016, 03:48:40 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?
My 10-week old daughter can not. Is there something wrong with her?

Yes, clearly she needs to work on her deadlift.

I'll have to remember babies, infirms, quadraplegic etc. next time I reference what an average person should be able to do. /s

Metric Mouse

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2016, 03:54:22 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?
My 10-week old daughter can not. Is there something wrong with her?

Yes, clearly she needs to work on her deadlift.

The little tyke is not very swole. It's true.  I didn't see that you said "average healthy human", so I'm sorry for the snarky reply. I have this thing in written correspondence where I read what people write, instead of what they mean, and get confused if they are not identical. I shall strive to improve.

Dollar Slice

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2016, 04:01:37 PM »
If the latter, I think it is relevant to the discussion as a 24 inch monitor is much less than 40 lbs and I and other posters can't see how someone is able to carry a box accross a street (presumably in their arms) and then be unable to lift the same box 8 inches. So maybe we are missing something and hence we are questioning the OP.

The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #61 on: October 19, 2016, 07:10:34 PM »
If the latter, I think it is relevant to the discussion as a 24 inch monitor is much less than 40 lbs and I and other posters can't see how someone is able to carry a box accross a street (presumably in their arms) and then be unable to lift the same box 8 inches. So maybe we are missing something and hence we are questioning the OP.

The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

Ah, I found a nerve, it's here!

Not trying to imply anything about the OP, I just can't figure out the physics of how a person is able to pick up a box, walk to a bus stop and then be unable to lift said box anymore. It makes no sense to me. 

Gin1984

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2016, 07:11:03 AM »
If the latter, I think it is relevant to the discussion as a 24 inch monitor is much less than 40 lbs and I and other posters can't see how someone is able to carry a box accross a street (presumably in their arms) and then be unable to lift the same box 8 inches. So maybe we are missing something and hence we are questioning the OP.

The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

Ah, I found a nerve, it's here!

Not trying to imply anything about the OP, I just can't figure out the physics of how a person is able to pick up a box, walk to a bus stop and then be unable to lift said box anymore. It makes no sense to me.
I can't lift the same weight up near my head as I can pushing or even picking up from the floor.  Try this.  Take something at the highest weight you can pick up from chest height (and can move to another spot) then try to put it about six inches above said height.  Then come back.

farmerj

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2016, 08:24:27 AM »
Quote
Which grip strength, short term or long term?  Can you link to the actual study?

Short term. Abstract here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303. Graph taken from here: http://www.unz.com/gnxp/men-are-stronger-than-women-on-average.

In the study, 90% of young women in the data had weaker grip strength than 95% of young men. To look at it another way, the strongest 10% of women could beat the bottom 5% of men. A 75th percentile female athlete was weaker than the 25th percentile of male grip strength.

The other link, to Reddit, shows data from a broader spectrum of individuals, and found slightly better numbers for women overall:  "89% of adult men are stronger than the 89% of adult women." https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/4vcxd0/almost_all_men_are_stronger_than_almost_all_women/



The short version: when your wife asks you to lift something heavy for her, she's not being lazy.






Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2016, 09:41:56 AM »
If the latter, I think it is relevant to the discussion as a 24 inch monitor is much less than 40 lbs and I and other posters can't see how someone is able to carry a box accross a street (presumably in their arms) and then be unable to lift the same box 8 inches. So maybe we are missing something and hence we are questioning the OP.

The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

Ah, I found a nerve, it's here!

Not trying to imply anything about the OP, I just can't figure out the physics of how a person is able to pick up a box, walk to a bus stop and then be unable to lift said box anymore. It makes no sense to me.
I can't lift the same weight up near my head as I can pushing or even picking up from the floor.  Try this.  Take something at the highest weight you can pick up from chest height (and can move to another spot) then try to put it about six inches above said height.  Then come back.

You are right Gin1984, I can't overhead press 300 pounds.... But I don't see how this relates to getting a box on a bus. Are steps really that high in the states?




Making Cookies

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #65 on: October 20, 2016, 01:29:58 PM »
Fair to say a healthy human can grip at least 40 pounds ?

My 10-week old daughter can not. Is there something wrong with her?

My ten year old can though... ;)

frugalnacho

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2016, 07:39:31 AM »
The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I don't think the problem is exactly as you are describing. This was not an action that required only slightly less than average strength to accomplish.  I literally cannot comprehend what the OP described.  I don't want to rag on the OP, but I honestly cannot comprehend how any adult, even someone in the bottom decile of strength could not accomplish it.  Maybe there is a miscommunication or a misunderstanding on my part of exactly what was involved.  To me it equates to the analogy I used early: You purchased a gallon of milk, carried it out of the store and up to the bus stop, but then were unable to to lift it onto the bus. 

Again I'm not trying to rag or disparage the OP, and I don't think Guses is either, but the story just makes no sense to me. 


Gin1984

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2016, 07:44:06 AM »
If the latter, I think it is relevant to the discussion as a 24 inch monitor is much less than 40 lbs and I and other posters can't see how someone is able to carry a box accross a street (presumably in their arms) and then be unable to lift the same box 8 inches. So maybe we are missing something and hence we are questioning the OP.

The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

Ah, I found a nerve, it's here!

Not trying to imply anything about the OP, I just can't figure out the physics of how a person is able to pick up a box, walk to a bus stop and then be unable to lift said box anymore. It makes no sense to me.
I can't lift the same weight up near my head as I can pushing or even picking up from the floor.  Try this.  Take something at the highest weight you can pick up from chest height (and can move to another spot) then try to put it about six inches above said height.  Then come back.

You are right Gin1984, I can't overhead press 300 pounds.... But I don't see how this relates to getting a box on a bus. Are steps really that high in the states?
It goes to how you get on the bus.  After the stairs (which again trying carrying 300lbs upstairs) there is normally a box which will mean picking up the item you are carrying a little higher (which again, what I can carry for a short distance at midheight is different than above midheight). Then you have to carry it for a time period while keeping your balance (while the bus is moving), if the bus is crowded. 

Gin1984

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2016, 07:47:44 AM »
The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I don't think the problem is exactly as you are describing. This was not an action that required only slightly less than average strength to accomplish. I literally cannot comprehend what the OP described.  I don't want to rag on the OP, but I honestly cannot comprehend how any adult, even someone in the bottom decile of strength could not accomplish it.  Maybe there is a miscommunication or a misunderstanding on my part of exactly what was involved.  To me it equates to the analogy I used early: You purchased a gallon of milk, carried it out of the store and up to the bus stop, but then were unable to to lift it onto the bus. 

Again I'm not trying to rag or disparage the OP, and I don't think Guses is either, but the story just makes no sense to me.
Except multiple women are telling you it does.  Average for male (your assumption based on your experience) is different than average for women AND you are still assuming healthy.  I can get two gallons in the house, but by the time I do, my back is hurting.  See this link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16988571
My personal bet is women have more back problems because we are trying to carry, from a young age, more weight than is healthy for someone of our size because of the comparison to men/boys. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2016, 07:57:20 AM »
The OP has already explained that they are a very small person. No more explanation is needed and frankly they shouldn't have had to explain that in the first place.

It drives me up the damn wall that every time I or anyone else mentions some less-than-average ability, we have to explain ourselves, describe our bodies and our medical problems to any rando who decides they have to shame someone on the internet. It's none of your business if the OP is "average" or not. She said she couldn't lift it. Believe her and move on. Why is that so hard? Instead you're now researching what you think a person ought to be able to carry - so that you can prove the OP is inferior to an average human? That she didn't try hard enough? That she is lying? What are you trying to achieve, exactly, by chasing this tangent?

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I don't think the problem is exactly as you are describing. This was not an action that required only slightly less than average strength to accomplish. I literally cannot comprehend what the OP described.  I don't want to rag on the OP, but I honestly cannot comprehend how any adult, even someone in the bottom decile of strength could not accomplish it.  Maybe there is a miscommunication or a misunderstanding on my part of exactly what was involved.  To me it equates to the analogy I used early: You purchased a gallon of milk, carried it out of the store and up to the bus stop, but then were unable to to lift it onto the bus. 

Again I'm not trying to rag or disparage the OP, and I don't think Guses is either, but the story just makes no sense to me.
Except multiple women are telling you it does.  Average for male (your assumption based on your experience) is different than average for women AND you are still assuming healthy.  I can get two gallons in the house, but by the time I do, my back is hurting.  See this link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16988571
My personal bet is women have more back problems because we are trying to carry, from a young age, more weight than is healthy for someone of our size because of the comparison to men/boys.

They are, but it still doesn't make sense.  My comprehension of the strength required does not fall into the bottom half or quarter of the posted strength graph, but literally below all data points.  The weakest person, from the weakest group still appears to be above the strength required to accomplish the task.  That is what I don't understand.

EDIT:

Maybe I am underestimating the strength required to accomplish the task, but the image below shows my understanding of the post.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 08:05:12 AM by frugalnacho »

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2016, 08:39:35 AM »
Besides everything frugalnacho (love saying your name, it just rolls of the tongue!) just said, I am left wondering how the monitor even got to OP's home.

Did the taxi driver bring it up the stairs? Did he also lift the monitor onto the desk or is it now installed on the floor?

I can totally understand if the bus was super packed and the OP just said "screw that, I am not going on that bus". But the "blame" was laid on the box being too heavy to lift.

What puzzles me the most is that it is biomechanically easier to lift a box from the floor onto a stair (compound muscles groups)  than it is to carry that box from chest height (mostly chest/back). 

dycker1978

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2016, 10:05:56 AM »
So at first I was disgusted by the comments.  Every ones  level of strength is different.  So it may be completely possible that the OP was not able to do this as stated.

Then I decided I would see what the OP was trolling a little.  They only have 24 posts, so I went back into her history and read some of them.  The one the I think was interesting is where she talked about her dumpster diving.  making three trips with garbage bags full of food from the dumpster to her place. 

I think we have been trolled here people.

Friar

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #72 on: October 23, 2016, 08:18:39 AM »
[...] is it now installed on the floor?

This had me in stitches!

RobFIRE

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #73 on: October 23, 2016, 08:58:13 AM »
I'll assume for a moment the OP's comments are all genuine:

It does seem surprising that an adult could not lift up a box containing a modern 24" LCD i.e. only a couple of inches / up 5 cm thick. I have a 23" LCD which weighs about 2 kg. The stand is plastic so wouldn't add much weight. If I assume some LCDs have a heavy stand and a sturdy box we're still only looking at around 5 kg / 10 lbs. I would think any adult, small & female or otherwise, could readily lift that weight for a short distance. Yes it would be a pain to carry for a significant distance, but that's not what we're talking about. Now, the LCD I bought came in a box which is around 70 x 50 x 15 cm, pretty sensible. On other occasions I have carried items of a similar weight to this but in a much larger box, each side > 50 cm, and they can be a pain as you have to hold them in front of you, can't put on a shoulder or carry under arm. Doubly a pain if no suitable carry handles. If you're a small person, therefore with short arms, a medium-sized box with no handles could certainly be problematic. So if the box was quite large in all dimensions this could explain it, you struggle to lift the box with no handles, queue to get on the bus, arms getting tired, and and the entrance to a bus could be narrow if the door has a divider and/or it's busy and there are other passengers blocking the way, you struggle to navigate round that.

So if the box was much larger than 70 x 50 x 16 cm then I don't know why the manufacturer did that, of course they'll want it to be well packaged but doesn't have to be a huge box.

Or (seems unlikely but could be) the LCD is actually one of the old style CRTs, there must be some people who use them for specific reasons (some people have issues with the high-frequency flicker of LCDs for example?). An old style CRT is definitely heavy, could easily be 20 kg / 40 lbs, is square so would be in a large box. I would not expect any of my female friends to easily manage lifting and carrying such a box.

However, it still doesn't answer the question, surely on a full bus there would be somebody willing to help another person get a box onto the bus? Did the OP not ask, perhaps they were embarrassed to or it's not a very friendly area of town? It is a shame if nobody offered to help.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #74 on: October 23, 2016, 06:05:04 PM »
However, it still doesn't answer the question, surely on a full bus there would be somebody willing to help another person get a box onto the bus? Did the OP not ask, perhaps they were embarrassed to or it's not a very friendly area of town? It is a shame if nobody offered to help.

I think you greatly underestimate the power of diffused responsibility on the human decision making process. It's a fascinating phenomenon that has been widely studied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

JLee

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2016, 08:22:12 AM »
However, it still doesn't answer the question, surely on a full bus there would be somebody willing to help another person get a box onto the bus? Did the OP not ask, perhaps they were embarrassed to or it's not a very friendly area of town? It is a shame if nobody offered to help.

I think you greatly underestimate the power of diffused responsibility on the human decision making process. It's a fascinating phenomenon that has been widely studied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

Yep.  If you take a first aid / CPR class, notice how they teach you to point to a specific person / observer and say "you call 911" instead of the generic "somebody call 911" - because everybody expects that someone else will do something.

arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #76 on: October 26, 2016, 05:41:29 AM »
MOD NOTE: Some people are being * here.

They have received warnings.

I don't have time to go through and edit individual posts, but understand that behavior where you are criticizing someone for how much they can lift, implying they are a liar or troll because you don't believe/understand their story, etc. is not acceptable.

OP was trying to tell an amusing story, and multiple people were straight up rude.

Please be understanding and empathetic in the future, especially to people not as capable or strong as you.

Cheers!
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Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2016, 06:09:57 AM »
Thanks for the warning arebelspy, I guess. Can you point me to where I was breaching forum rules if you don't mind?

I stated several times that I was not implying the OP was not capable of lifting the box. It's not about physical capabilities it's about inconsistensies in the story.

Maybe you felt I was being sarcastic in my replies, but I was very genuine. Maybe you could have another read as to what we actually wrote and see if we were really breaching forum rules.

Thanks very much.

arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2016, 06:11:37 AM »
Yes, it's the first rule.

I did read the entire thread.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2016, 06:13:28 AM by arebelspy »
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frugalnacho

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2016, 07:10:00 AM »
Thanks for the warning arebelspy, I guess. Can you point me to where I was breaching forum rules if you don't mind?

I stated several times that I was not implying the OP was not capable of lifting the box. It's not about physical capabilities it's about inconsistensies in the story.

Yea I don't really understand either.  I wasn't trying to be a jerk, I just can't comprehend the OP's story.  I don't think I called the OP a name or anything.  Are we not allowed to call out claims we think are incredulous?

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2016, 07:15:16 AM »
Where do you feel we were jerks?

Here is what I understand:
"OP said X.

We questioned whether X was possible. We presented data showing that X was unlikely.

Other people responded that yes, X was possible.

We continued presenting arguments that X was unlikely and expanded our reasoning."

Would you feel the same way if the discussion had been about saving 50% of a salary?

We never called people names or attacked anyone. At least, not willingly, which is why I am requesting clarifications.

Is there a taboo about discussing physical ability, biomechanics and the basic laws of physics?




arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2016, 08:47:16 AM »
Where do you feel we were jerks?

It was at this part, that I bolded:
Quote
Here is what I understand:
"OP said X.

We questioned whether X was possible. We presented data showing that X was unlikely.

Other people responded that yes, X was possible.

We continued presenting arguments that X was unlikely and expanded our reasoning."

OP presented a funny anecdote.  Her physical abilities were challenged.  Other posters, as you say, confirmed this is a real issue.  You continued to insist that no, it was not.  That's where you crossed over.

As far as this violating the forum rules of being a jerk, you guys obviously won't think you were being jerks.  But, as Louis CK says "It's not up to you!"

You can watch the whole clip, but I have it queued up to 1:50, the relevant part:
https://youtu.be/18y6vteoaQY?t=110

You guys don't think you were being rude.  But it's not up to you, it's up to everybody else.  Multiple other people had a problem with the comments, per reports, and reading the thread now, I can't view your comments were kind or constructive in any way.  What did you want to prove, that the OP was weaker than your ideal of a human?  That they are a liar?  You were already told by multiple people this was an issue.  Are they all liars?  What is the point of arguing if they can lift a box or not?  How is it not being a jerk, challenging someone on their physical abilities, trying to use "physics" as you say to prove that they're wrong?

This is the part, from that clip, where you go "Alright, what happened, how did I get here," rather than "No I'm not!"  :)
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frugalnacho

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2016, 09:09:44 AM »
Where do you feel we were jerks?

Quote
We continued presenting arguments that X was unlikely and expanded our reasoning."

OP presented a funny anecdote.  Her physical abilities were challenged.  Other posters, as you say, confirmed this is a real issue.  You continued to insist that no, it was not.  That's where you crossed over.

I still don't understand why clarifying and providing additional evidence to support your point on a discussion forum is considered being a jerk.  Most of the posters and threads would fit that criteria simply because of differences of opinion (many of which are factually based and thus not really an opinion).  This seems like it is discouraging members from questioning the validity of a statement no matter how inaccurate or ridiculous they think it is.  I get that it's not entirely up to me (or any individual) to decide when they themselves are being an asshole, but I don't agree that there should be a popular consensus just because multiple people are offended and click the report button.  Would you reprimand yourself just because several posters reported your post? Argumentum ad populum

Based on the way this thread has gone I'm sure several people will construe this post as being a jerk as well.  My intention with this post is not to be a jerk though, but just to clarify my viewpoint.

arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2016, 09:16:08 AM »
There is a difference between questioning the validity of a claim, especially regarding someone else's physical abilities, and continuing to insist it's wrong even when other people tell you it's valid.

Saying "I don't agree this investment strategy is the best, I think this is because CAGR, beta, blah blah" is very different than "I actually think you CAN lift it, and attempt to prove it with this semi-related study, thereby calling you, and everyone else confirming the issue, a liar."

Backing up an opinion is different than calling out someone's physical abilities.  Can you not see that?
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frugalnacho

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2016, 09:35:33 AM »
There is a difference between questioning the validity of a claim, especially regarding someone else's physical abilities, and continuing to insist it's wrong even when other people tell you it's valid.

Saying "I don't agree this investment strategy is the best, I think this is because CAGR, beta, blah blah" is very different than "I actually think you CAN lift it, and attempt to prove it with this semi-related study, thereby calling you, and everyone else confirming the issue, a liar."

Backing up an opinion is different than calling out someone's physical abilities.  Can you not see that?

I do, but how far can it go before it's completely incredulous?  What if you replaced the monitor with a pack of gum?  The OP claimed she couldn't lift a pack of gum up onto the bus, and then the thread played out in an identical manner with several people confirming that the story makes perfect sense, everyone's physical ability is different, and it's completely reasonable that the OP couldn't lift the gum up onto the bus.  And several other posters were completely incredulous and kept arguing that no the story in fact does not make sense and they cannot fathom how anyone could possibly not lift the pack of gum onto the bus.  Would the befuddled posters still be receiving warnings in that case?

Obviously a pack of gum is an absolute extreme, but that is my entire point.  I literally cannot fathom a single adult that is healthy enough to be physically mobile under their own strength (and drag the object in question all the way out to the bus stop), yet is unable to lift it onto the bus.  In my mind there is no practical difference between a pack of gum and a 14 pound box, they are both equally unfathomable to me.

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2016, 10:12:54 AM »
Saying "I don't agree this investment strategy is the best, I think this is because CAGR, beta, blah blah" is very different than "I actually think you CAN lift it, and attempt to prove it with this semi-related study, thereby calling you, and everyone else confirming the issue, a liar."

Is that what was said now?

I don't recall it that way. In fact, it seemed like more like the first quote of the paragraph.

Cathy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2016, 10:22:19 AM »
What if you replaced the monitor with a pack of gum?

What if you replaced the pack of gum with an envelope containing one of your knowingly false and fraudulent US federal tax returns? That has about as much relevance as the question you just asked, i.e., none at all.


In my mind [the OP's story] is ... unfathomable[.]

The main problem here is that both you and Guses haven't actually engaged in a reasonable analysis of this situation. Among the plethora of defects found in your overly simplistic posts is that you've both fixated specifically on the weight of the object, while ignoring the size of the box even though the original post specifically said that "the box was bigger ... than expected".

Let's keep in mind that the original poster ("OP") purchased the monitor online and it may have been shipped from a warehouse to the local store, which means that the monitor might have been in at least two nested boxes (the manufacturer packaging and the box added for the warehouse shipping), and each of those two boxes might have contained significant padding and mostly open space. As a result, we might have been talking here about a very large box indeed. One of the challenges in transporting such a large box isn't just lifting the weight, but also how to best place one's arm around the box to carry it, especially if a person has shorter arms than you do. The mass distribution within the box is also uneven, but the monitor might be positioned in such a way within the box that the optimal way to position the mass doesn't mesh well with the contours of a comfortable way to hold the box.

The difficulty of loading such a box onto the bus isn't just the physical lifting, but also the challenge of how to best maneuver a large object through a relatively small doorway up into the bus. Keep in mind that the pathway up into the bus probably involves having to walk up several steps, which means the OP had to figure out how to best maneuver the box so that she could get her arms around it and lift it onto the bus, but also had to do it in such a way that she could continue to walk up the steps of the bus with the box.

Furthermore, the situation is also made very stressful by the fact that the other passengers on the bus just want to get where they are going, and aren't interested in waiting around. In such a situation, both the bus driver and other passengers might start to show that they are annoyed. Even if they don't say it, you can see it on their faces, and it's discouraging and can add pressure to an already-stressful situation. (The OP doesn't specifically say anything about this, but another source of stress is that for a woman carrying a purse on her shoulder, it could start to slip off in this situation of trying to lift a large box, and this can be stressful because there is a risk of, say, one's wallet or phone falling out while trying to get onto the bus.)

My point here is that whether or not the OP had the physical ability to lift the box, there was likely a fair amount of technical skill required to do so, and executing on that level of skill in a stressful situation can be difficult for people who don't have a lot of experience with this kind of thing.

More to the point, the OP was under no obligation to go into great deal about why her original plan didn't work out, and it was frankly irrelevant to her story. Your fixation on analysing what, in your mind, she did wrong serves no purpose other than to insult her and attempt to make her feel bad. I doubt you've been successful in that latter objective because of the transparent inanity of your posts, but you've made a valiant effort.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 12:44:10 AM by Cathy »

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2016, 10:43:53 AM »
The main problem here is that both you and Guses haven't actually engaged in a reasonable analysis of this situation.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe that's not what was intended, hinted at, talked about or even alluded to?

"I am able to do X and I am not able to do X" cannot both be true. So either show me how former X differs from latter X or stop insisting that the statement is true.

"The box was too big for the bus door?" Yeah, makes total sense. End of story.

"I can't carry a box that I have been already carrying?" Does not compute.

It's not about the OP, it's about a contradiction.

Cathy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2016, 10:56:58 AM »
"I can't carry a box that I have been already carrying?" Does not compute. ...

It's not about the OP, it's about a contradiction.

The OP never said that she ever lifted the box, which is yet another reason why it is difficult to assume good faith regarding your posts in this thread. She said that she "barely managed to walk out of the store" with the box, which could mean, for example, that she pushed it along the ground. There's in fact no statement in any of the OP's posts that she ever lifted the box off the ground at all, and yet you repeatedly have said that she did as evidence of your imagined "contradiction". Even if she did awkwardly lift it slightly off the ground to make it to the bus stop, it's already been explained to you that that requires a different level of technical skill (and perhaps a different amount of physical ability) compared to getting it onto the bus during a stressful situation.

I suspect some of the respondents to this thread (not necessarily you) have never actually taken public transit, or taken it only very rarely. Bus drivers are typically very impatient, as are fellow riders. I have never seen either be friendly or helpful, and on the contrary, they typically add to the stress of the situation by making it known that they are annoyed if you don't immediately step onto the bus. Even if the OP had made it onto the bus, the driver might have driven off before she even took a seat (something I've seen many times), which obviously would have also been very unpleasant while carrying a large box.

The fundamental problem here is that you never engaged in a fair reading of the actual text of the OP's posts. You instead imposed on those posts a narrative consistent with your own experience, and then concluded that the OP's story made no sense. This is just not the right way to analyse text. You need to focus on the words. The OP's words tell a different story than the one you've been arguing against.

frugalnacho

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2016, 11:02:53 AM »
What if you replaced the pack of gum with an envelope containing one of your knowingly false and fraudulent US federal tax returns? That has about as much relevance as the question you just asked, i.e., none at all.


In my mind [the OP's story] is ... unfathomable[.]

The main problem here is that both you and Guses haven't actually engaged in a reasonable analysis of this situation. Among the plethora of defects found in your overly simplistic posts is that you've both fixated specifically on the weight of the object, while ignoring the size of the box even though the original post specifically said that "the box was bigger ... than expected".

More to the point, the OP was under no obligation to go into great deal about why her original plan didn't work out, and it was frankly irrelevant to her story. Your fixation on analysing what, in your mind, she did wrong serves no purpose other than to insult her and attempt to make her feel bad. I doubt you've been successful in that latter objective because of the transparent inanity of your posts, but you've made a valiant effort.

I would question how any adult would not be able to lift an envelope containing a tax return and probe for more details, very similar to what I did.  I believe it's relevant, because again, it's literally unbelievable to me.

I didn't ignore the size.  My first two posts were questioning the size and I never received clarification.  I also stated multiple times that there must be a miscommunication or a misunderstanding on the weight/size and never received clarification.  I'm not analyzing what the OP did wrong, I just don't understand the story.

I was accused of making assumptions and interjecting my own personal experience onto the OP, but you've made a fair number of your own assumptions with your response. 

I also disagree that the details are irrelevant to the story, I think they are crucially relevant for my understanding.  Without the details the story makes absolutely no sense to me, and is unbelievable.

I think the thread possibly needs to be locked now, as I doubt there is going to be any further productive discourse.  Either way I will not be posting in this thread any longer.

Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2016, 11:10:20 AM »
The fundamental problem here is that you never engaged in a fair reading of the actual text of the OP's posts. You instead imposed on those posts a narrative consistent with your own experience, and then concluded that the OP's story made no sense. This is just not the right way to analyse text. You need to focus on the words. The OP's words tell a different story than the one you've been arguing against.

I could be saying the same thing to you, arebelspy and many other posters of this thread. There is assumption of ill intent where none was intended.

I am sorry if discussions beyond the boundaries of the OP are not permitted in this forum. 

arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2016, 04:50:13 PM »
"I am able to do X and I am not able to do X" cannot both be true. So either show me how former X differs from latter X or stop insisting that the statement is true.

Your statement isn't what happened.  The statement was: "I was initially barely able to do X, and I was not able to continue to do X",  which can absolutely be true, especially when it comes to something related to strength.

Quote
"The box was too big for the bus door?" Yeah, makes total sense. End of story.

"I can't carry a box that I have been already carrying?" Does not compute.

It's not about the OP, it's about a contradiction.

Really?  Something you can lift once, or in her words "barely managed to walk out of the store" with, that means you can continue to lift it, as long and as much as you want?

It seems more likely to me something you can barely deal with, initially, becomes harder to lift over time.

Your concept of "if she can lift it once, she can lift it forever" is silly.

I'm sure if you give me a box I can barely lift, have me struggle to take it out of a store, stagger across the street with it, my arms may have fatigued by the time it's time to lift it into a bus, even if they got a short break waiting for the bus.

Quote
"I can't carry a box that I have been already carrying?" Does not compute.

How does arm fatigue not compute?

In any case, I agree with FrugalNacho. this discussion isn't productive.  There's a clear disconnect here.  You and FN aren't understanding how the OP struggled with this box.  Others are explaining it to you.  Continuing to insist they are wrong, despite their own experience, is rude.  If you can't see that, you'll have to take the word of the other people letting you know so.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2016, 06:33:03 PM »
However, it still doesn't answer the question, surely on a full bus there would be somebody willing to help another person get a box onto the bus? Did the OP not ask, perhaps they were embarrassed to or it's not a very friendly area of town? It is a shame if nobody offered to help.

I think you greatly underestimate the power of diffused responsibility on the human decision making process. It's a fascinating phenomenon that has been widely studied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

Yep.  If you take a first aid / CPR class, notice how they teach you to point to a specific person / observer and say "you call 911" instead of the generic "somebody call 911" - because everybody expects that someone else will do something.
This is great advice to get people productive in any type of emergency.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2016, 07:16:12 PM »

I would question how any adult would not be able to lift an envelope containing a tax return and probe for more details, very similar to what I did.  I believe it's relevant, because again, it's literally unbelievable to me.

Perhaps you could expand your mind then?

When several other posters confirmed the OP's basic premise, instead of saying "Oh, ok, perhaps I should reflect upon this previously unbelievable situation to see if I can comprehend how it might be possible" you continued to push the issue well past the point of politeness.

And now that it's been explained to you (again) by multiple persons, in multiple ways, and you still continue to disparage the OP, I think it's become a clear violation of Rule #1.

arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2016, 07:34:59 PM »

I would question how any adult would not be able to lift an envelope containing a tax return and probe for more details, very similar to what I did.  I believe it's relevant, because again, it's literally unbelievable to me.

Perhaps you could expand your mind then?

When several other posters confirmed the OP's basic premise, instead of saying "Oh, ok, perhaps I should reflect upon this previously unbelievable situation to see if I can comprehend how it might be possible" you continued to push the issue well past the point of politeness.

And now that it's been explained to you (again) by multiple persons, in multiple ways, and you still continue to disparage the OP, I think it's become a clear violation of Rule #1.

FWIW, Nacho, MM here wasn't one of the ones who reported it, nor the person who PM'd me after the mod note thanking me.

I share this because you've always seemed like a good person, and I think you really just don't get that your comments have been on the rude side.  It's not a matter of "majority decides they don't like you," it's a matter of "the continual comments have crossed the line to genuinely rude."

As someone put it to me in a PM "mansplainers gonna 'splain"... I don't think you were trying to go for that, but this is how it came off.
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Metric Mouse

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2016, 07:44:06 PM »
I've found that positive discussion is much more powerful and helpful than heavy moderation.

Or, as my good friends would say:



arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2016, 07:54:29 PM »
I've found that positive discussion is much more powerful and helpful than heavy moderation.



Agreed. :)
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Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #97 on: October 27, 2016, 07:38:30 AM »

Really?  Something you can lift once, or in her words "barely managed to walk out of the store" with, that means you can continue to lift it, as long and as much as you want?

It seems more likely to me something you can barely deal with, initially, becomes harder to lift over time.

Your concept of "if she can lift it once, she can lift it forever" is silly.

I'm sure if you give me a box I can barely lift, have me struggle to take it out of a store, stagger across the street with it, my arms may have fatigued by the time it's time to lift it into a bus, even if they got a short break waiting for the bus.


To be honest, I was not considering that possibility at all. The concept of leaving a store with something so heavy that you can only barely sorta grasp it in your hands for a short while and deciding to leave with it is totally alien to me. I would have been as incredulous if you had suggested appliance shopping on foot.


Arebelspy, while we are airing dirty laundry, I would like to point out that you are the only person in this thread that resorted to name calling. Two, I find your use of "mansplaining" sexist, rude and out of line. As a moderator, I think that you should be setting the example. I'll let you judge what is an appropriate punishment for yourself.




arebelspy

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #98 on: October 27, 2016, 07:41:33 AM »
Arebelspy, while we are airing dirty laundry, I would like to point out that you are the only person in this thread that resorted to name calling.

Oh?  What names would that be?

Quote
Two, I find your use of "mansplaining" sexist, rude and out of line.

It was, as I said (maybe you missed it, or didn't read it?), something someone PM'd to me; it was a direct quote.  I was attempting to show you how you are coming off to others.
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Guses

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Re: Free shipping was not free after all
« Reply #99 on: October 27, 2016, 07:47:54 AM »

Oh?  What names would that be?


We were called apostrophes.


It was, as I said (maybe you missed it, or didn't read it?), something someone PM'd to me; it was a direct quote.  I was attempting to show you how you are coming off to others.

If someone PM's me that "* is a douchebag tool" do you think it's appropriate for me to post it or should I maybe keep it to myself?

 
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 07:51:30 AM by Guses »