Author Topic: Forum check: what forum is this?  (Read 42617 times)

Villanelle

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2015, 12:29:09 AM »
You're being deliberately obtuse. Just because a bunch of old money snobs don't consider a billionaire hoodie-wearing youngster from Silicon Valley to be of their social class doesn't change the fact that Zuckerberg is not middle class by any reasonable or even unreasonable definition. I can't really believe we are even having this conversation.

There is a difference between US/Europe, or at least UK
Upper class = inherited land
Middle class = bourgousie, professional job eg.  doctor/lawyer/university lecturer
Working class = have a job, especially if you make things.

It's a lot more about background/upbringing/family than money. You become middle class if you become an accountant, but you can stay working class if you create a $Bn oil company.

A sociology class I took a zillion years differentiated between upper upper (old money) and lower upper (new money).  Both are upper class, but the distinction within that group isn't income or net worth and is all social.  Both are so wealthy as to never have to work and never have to think about money, really.

DH and my collective income is very roughly (it's complicated!) $120k.  We live in an extremely high COL area, and not by choice.  And I consider us very much upper middle class, more upper than middle. 

JZinCO

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2015, 12:30:18 AM »
I agree! I never, ever said Gates and Zuckerberg were middle class! :)

Fair enough!  I misunderstood what you were getting at.

Sorry, I'm not going to let you off the hook, Shane. You said that Zuckerberg was of a different social class than the Rockefellers or whoever of the world. Here are the quotes:

A person who grows up middle class, but then after college starts a business which earns him $100K/month doesn't automatically become upper class. He would be considered upper middle class because of his high income.

[...]
You're right. It does sound ludicrous to say people like Gates and Zuckerberg are middle class. But, although guys like that do have fabulous wealth, and to some extent they may be accepted in upper class circles, there's still a big difference between their new money and families with names like Forbes, Carnegie, Rockefeller, Du Ponte, etc. It's a different social class.

Here above you clearly say that someone who recently starts to make 1.2M a year is still upper middle class.

Then you say Zuckerberg is a different social class than the old school money people. If you weren't referring to the middle class, what class were you suggesting that he is in? The unicorn class? The hoodie-wearing class?

I agree with the larger point, though, that discussing class is muddying the waters.

When somebody said, "Well, how about Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates? Are they middle class too?" Given that example, I had to concede that, no, they are not middle class, by any stretch of the word, which then called into question my original example as well. Maybe the guy making $1.2MM/year isn't upper-middle class either. I don't know for sure what to call them. I just had a gut feeling there was a difference between new money and generational wealth, but maybe I was wrong...

My point in bringing up the whole social class thing was in response to several posters who talked about themselves or people they knew who made lots of money but continued to insist they were still middle class. Maybe the reason people cling to the idea that they are part of the middle class, when an objective observer can see by looking at their income and lifestyle that they are way above middle class, is because of the social implications of admitting to yourself and others that you are a member of the "upper class." It's more than just numbers. People have strong emotional reactions to words.

It's fine for us to discuss it here anonymously online, but try turning to another mom at your kid's next soccer game and saying something like, "My husband just got a promotion at work, and now we've moved into the upper class. How about you guys? Are you upper class yet, or are you still in the middle class?" :)

Even if it were true, it's not really socially acceptable to admit something like that, right? It seems to me that that's probably why people don't want to admit that they are no longer middle class even when they're making tons of money. It would feel really awkward to say something like, "Yes, we are now in the upper class." Anyone who said something like that would sound really pretentious, and that's not how most people want to come off. They want to be one of the regular guys. Just like everyone else.

This is a good interpretation. It probably explains why almost three-quarters of those with at least 5 million in assets consider themselves middle class.
Another reason could be because the majority of affluent folks rose through the ranks on sweat equity, and not inheritance, and carry the same roots-based perception of themselves through life.

dragoncar

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2015, 12:38:46 AM »


This is a good interpretation. It probably explains why almost three-quarters of those with at least 5 million in assets consider themselves middle class.
Another reason could be because the majority of affluent folks rose through the ranks on sweat equity, and not inheritance, and carry the same roots-based perception of themselves through life.

Yeah, I suspect they all have a middle class upbringing, or think you have to have to be some kind of snob with refined sensibilities to be upper class.  Maybe they are confusing having no class with being middle class.

I wonder if we just called it an "upper class salary" if that would settle the class anxiety issues.

It's funny, because I have a social justice crusader type friend ...  he's a really great guy but is basically now the go-to guy for internet activism.  And he gets paid a lot to help good causes rally the forces.  We were talking about some random 1% issue back when that was a hot topic and he said something that made me go "wait, don't you typically pull make that kind of money these days?"  It was very satisfying to watch his face change with realization.   Of course, knowing this guy, he'll probably blow it all on food and shelter for poor kids in Africa :-(

arebelspy

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2015, 12:53:03 AM »

I thought this forum was about how being pampered and blowing cash doesn't actually bring you happiness. Why is it excused so easily by "HCOL"?

Really? Because I thought the purpose of this forum was saving as much cash as you can and retiring early.

If you can still afford some "pampering" while still hating your savings goals / saving rate... Why not?

And the definition of happiness is subjective...your definition is not the same as mine and will not be the same as the next person.

And we wonder why politician use class warfare to divide us and get votes, it is right here in this thread.

Any number of reasons.

Have you read the blog attached to these forums?

Here's a few:

1) Making your life more difficult actually makes it better (difficult meaning purposefully challenging--aka the opposite of the pampering you mention... not even actually real difficulties that many people have to face)

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

2) Hedonic Adaptation

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/22/what-is-hedonic-adaptation-and-how-can-it-turn-you-into-a-sukka/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/28/king-for-just-one-day/

Can't believe everyone just ignored this statement (or the incorrect "purpose" in the statement above it, which I won't even go into--suffice it to say, no, I think MMM wouldn't say the point is early retirement, even if that's one big benefit, and I think he'd say that badassity is much more important than ER).
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
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dragoncar

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2015, 01:03:53 AM »

Can't believe everyone just ignored this statement (or the incorrect "purpose" in the statement above it, which I won't even go into--suffice it to say, no, I think MMM wouldn't say the point is early retirement, even if that's one big benefit, and I think he'd say that badassity is much more important than ER).

Wait! Wait!  I know this one...

It's "Financial Freedom Through Badassity"

Do I get a cookie?

edit: but I didn't ignore that statement either: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/antimustachian-wall-of-shame-and-comedy/forum-check-what-forum-is-this/msg896523/#msg896523

arebelspy

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #105 on: December 09, 2015, 01:12:54 AM »
Yes, you didn't, but you basically accepted it with a caveat. That's even worse. ;)
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

dragoncar

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #106 on: December 09, 2015, 01:14:28 AM »
Yes, you didn't, but you basically accepted it with a caveat. That's even worse. ;)

I can't do all the work here!  What are they payin' you for?

arebelspy

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #107 on: December 09, 2015, 01:20:07 AM »

Yes, you didn't, but you basically accepted it with a caveat. That's even worse. ;)

I can't do all the work here!  What are they payin' you for?

My charming personality.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

dragoncar

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #108 on: December 09, 2015, 01:27:26 AM »

Yes, you didn't, but you basically accepted it with a caveat. That's even worse. ;)

I can't do all the work here!  What are they payin' you for?

My charming personality.

I guess MMM is due a refund then :-P

arebelspy

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #109 on: December 09, 2015, 01:29:45 AM »
*heads back to work*
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

marty998

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #110 on: December 09, 2015, 03:56:49 AM »
Upper class....

Always thought the technical term was "those snobbish bastards!"

And that varying levels of upper class were defined by how posh your English aristocratic/royal accent sounded...

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #111 on: December 09, 2015, 04:33:53 AM »
Upper class....

Always thought the technical term was "those snobbish bastards!"

And that varying levels of upper class were defined by how posh your English aristocratic/royal accent sounded...

There is a cross over here between British class structure (changing, but basically who your parents are) and traditional US class structure (much closer to how much money you make/spend).

It seems like outrageously wealthy/well paid Americans are claiming to be middle class because they watched Downton Abbey and don't own a castle.

In the UK nearly everyone refers to themselves as middle class. It doesn't mean anything any more.

Check out http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22007058 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/0/21970879 to throw some more spanners in the works.

I think it is much more informative to talk about income percentiles (or net wealth percentiles), to put some science into this made-up social construct.

justajane

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #112 on: December 09, 2015, 05:44:02 AM »
rats carryin pizza

If that's not a meme already, it ought to be!

@Shane. I understand your point now. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm mostly fine with high earners referring themselves as the "upper middle class" or "extremely fortunate" or "extremely blessed" if they don't want to label themselves "upper class" because of its connotations. But they really need to recognize that they are not the norm in terms of income and shouldn't try to lump themselves in with the true middle class, which makes less than 100K. They should empathize rather than commiserate with any struggles of the true middle class. Heck, as an 90K in a LCOL area, I don't even think I can do that. That's the problem some of us had with the comments about how 200K doesn't go so far, as if they had the same struggles as a person making 50K.

elaine amj

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #113 on: December 09, 2015, 07:46:34 AM »
I thought this forum was about how being pampered and blowing cash doesn't actually bring you happiness. Why is it excused so easily by "HCOL"?

Really? Because I thought the purpose of this forum was saving as much cash as you can and retiring early.

If you can still afford some "pampering" while still hitting your savings goals / saving rate... Why not?

And the definition of happiness is subjective...your definition is not the same as mine and will not be the same as the next person.

And we wonder why politician use class warfare to divide us and get votes, it is right here in this thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That would be the bogleheads forum or maybe earlyretirement.org (caveat: have only skimmed those forums so just my perception). To me, the MMM forum is about re-examining what provides value to your life. And learning that not all pampering provides the same value. And re-evaluating all those sacred cows. And realizing that you don't need as much cash as you thought you did.

So no, like others have said, MMM is not about saving as much cash as you can. MMM saved just enough and then retired. He has no interest in saving more. And even though he is earning more in retirement, he isn't spending any more since he feels he is already spending all he wants (at $25k a year).

I don't claim to follow all that. I'm still too much of a spendypants. But I come here to learn more about his lifestyle and adjust my own views about money and luxuries. It's no longer "how much do I need for retirement", it's "how little do I need"? And like you said, that varies from person to person.

tyir

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #114 on: December 09, 2015, 08:05:20 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.





matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #115 on: December 09, 2015, 08:08:22 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.

Nope, you're missing the point. You can live middle class and still be rich. What we are claiming is if you make 200k you're rich, that is regardless of your chosen lifestyle. You're taking quotes out of context and pulling conclusions based on that.

tyir

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #116 on: December 09, 2015, 08:15:07 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.

Nope, you're missing the point. You can live middle class and still be rich. What we are claiming is if you make 200k you're rich, that is regardless of your chosen lifestyle. You're taking quotes out of context and pulling conclusions based on that.

I'm not taking them out of context at all - seriously explain me exactly which quote I took out of context?  Saying the are pretenders (which is a direct quote) is incorrect and insulting.

If the problem is consumption, people here should be saying that people who spend 200K a year rich and deluded if they think they are middle class - that seems reasonable to me. But just earning it? People are not making that distinction in this thread.

Let me re-clarify in an edit - I don't have a complain about saying someone who earns 200K is rich. My point was calling them deluded is insulting if they live beneath their means.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 08:20:00 AM by tyir »

Pooperman

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2015, 08:21:26 AM »
Social class =/= wealth class. You can be middle class socially and have millions in the bank or have nothing in the bank and be living paycheck to paycheck. You can be upper class socially and live paycheck to paycheck with massive amount of debt, or you could make millions.

Middle class can be seen as the middle 50% of people. You can choose wealth ($9k - $315k according to the 2013 survey of consumer finances) or income ($25k/yr - $95k/yr according to 2010 census). If you fall to either side of that, you're not middle class. For DW and I, we are  middle class currently. We earned about $85k this past year and have about $55k in the bank.

matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2015, 08:24:45 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.

Nope, you're missing the point. You can live middle class and still be rich. What we are claiming is if you make 200k you're rich, that is regardless of your chosen lifestyle. You're taking quotes out of context and pulling conclusions based on that.

I'm not taking them out of context at all - seriously explain me exactly which quote I took out of context?  Saying the are pretenders (which is a direct quote) is incorrect and insulting.

If the problem is consumption, people here should be saying that people who spend 200K a year rich and deluded if they think they are middle class - that seems reasonable to me. But just earning it? People are not making that distinction in this thread.

Every quote. The reason I say you're taking them out of context is because the context of what people are saying is that earning 200k makes you rich. You're looking at that and saying "not true if I spend less than that" which is either intentionally skewing the concept of rich so as to shove it into just an expense model i.e. your idea that you're only rich if you spend alot of money, or it's not understanding what we've been saying.

Yes just earning 200k a year makes you rich regardless of your expenses. How is that not true by any measurement? No one is saying the problem is consumption, you're inventing that. People have been denying 200k a year is rich because they live in a HCOL area. The counter to that is that they think they're not rich because their norm is being surrounded by richness. They're hedonically adapted to the rich around them and no longer can perceive the rich. I agree that calling them pretenders is harsh, they're just living their lives. But that worldview, 200k is not rich, is so very very skewed.

I also think that when people hear the word rich they think what is being said is high class. That is not the case. I'm just saying rich, that is regardless of class. It's easy to conflate the two but not necessary in this case.

tyir

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #119 on: December 09, 2015, 08:33:50 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.

Nope, you're missing the point. You can live middle class and still be rich. What we are claiming is if you make 200k you're rich, that is regardless of your chosen lifestyle. You're taking quotes out of context and pulling conclusions based on that.

I'm not taking them out of context at all - seriously explain me exactly which quote I took out of context?  Saying the are pretenders (which is a direct quote) is incorrect and insulting.

If the problem is consumption, people here should be saying that people who spend 200K a year rich and deluded if they think they are middle class - that seems reasonable to me. But just earning it? People are not making that distinction in this thread.

Every quote. The reason I say you're taking them out of context is because the context of what people are saying is that earning 200k makes you rich. You're looking at that and saying "not true if I spend less than that" which is either intentionally skewing the concept of rich so as to shove it into just an expense model i.e. your idea that you're only rich if you spend alot of money, or it's not understanding what we've been saying.

Yes just earning 200k a year makes you rich regardless of your expenses. How is that not true by any measurement? No one is saying the problem is consumption, you're inventing that. People have been denying 200k a year is rich because they live in a HCOL area. The counter to that is that they think they're not rich because their norm is being surrounded by richness. They're hedonically adapted to the rich around them and no longer can perceive the rich. I agree that calling them pretenders is harsh, they're just living their lives. But that worldview, 200k is not rich, is so very very skewed.

I also think that when people hear the word rich they think what is being said is high class. That is not the case. I'm just saying rich, that is regardless of class. It's easy to conflate the two but not necessary in this case.

Note (in my edit, mind you) I said I don't see anything wrong with calling them rich - it was calling them pretenders and saying they are delusional if they feel "like a regular guy". I think that's a unhelpful perspective to take.

Another problem is the term "rich" is very often used as a negative term (discussed several times in this thread). You mention it's easy to conflate the two, and you are not, but maybe people here are (just in the other thread someone was saying someone who earned 200K can buy yachts, use private jets - trappings of upper class/snobbery). It's not surprising people who earn a lot in HCOL don't want to call themselves rich.

matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #120 on: December 09, 2015, 08:42:02 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.

Nope, you're missing the point. You can live middle class and still be rich. What we are claiming is if you make 200k you're rich, that is regardless of your chosen lifestyle. You're taking quotes out of context and pulling conclusions based on that.

I'm not taking them out of context at all - seriously explain me exactly which quote I took out of context?  Saying the are pretenders (which is a direct quote) is incorrect and insulting.

If the problem is consumption, people here should be saying that people who spend 200K a year rich and deluded if they think they are middle class - that seems reasonable to me. But just earning it? People are not making that distinction in this thread.

Every quote. The reason I say you're taking them out of context is because the context of what people are saying is that earning 200k makes you rich. You're looking at that and saying "not true if I spend less than that" which is either intentionally skewing the concept of rich so as to shove it into just an expense model i.e. your idea that you're only rich if you spend alot of money, or it's not understanding what we've been saying.

Yes just earning 200k a year makes you rich regardless of your expenses. How is that not true by any measurement? No one is saying the problem is consumption, you're inventing that. People have been denying 200k a year is rich because they live in a HCOL area. The counter to that is that they think they're not rich because their norm is being surrounded by richness. They're hedonically adapted to the rich around them and no longer can perceive the rich. I agree that calling them pretenders is harsh, they're just living their lives. But that worldview, 200k is not rich, is so very very skewed.

I also think that when people hear the word rich they think what is being said is high class. That is not the case. I'm just saying rich, that is regardless of class. It's easy to conflate the two but not necessary in this case.

Note (in my edit, mind you) I said I don't see anything wrong with calling them rich - it was calling them pretenders and saying they are delusional if they feel "like a regular guy". I think that's a unhelpful perspective to take.

Another problem is the term "rich" is very often used as a negative term (discussed several times in this thread). You mention it's easy to conflate the two, and you are not, but maybe people here are (just in the other thread someone was saying someone who earned 200K can buy yachts, use private jets - trappings of upper class/snobbery). It's not surprising people who earn a lot in HCOL don't want to call themselves rich.

That was me talking about yachts and private jets. Again taking things out of context because I was making the claim that earning 200k gave you the ability to do those things which puts you distinctly in the rich category. People said "I don't do those things so I can't be rich." It's in fact people jumping in and saying not to call them rich who are the ones taking the concept negatively, I'm just saying they're rich and the backlash has been the equivalent of "Ew don't call me rich, I'm not rich, you're partaking in class warfare by saying someone is rich, it's dangerous to say someone is rich, look at the neighborhood I live in I can't be rich...etc."

tyir

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #121 on: December 09, 2015, 08:49:13 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.

Nope, you're missing the point. You can live middle class and still be rich. What we are claiming is if you make 200k you're rich, that is regardless of your chosen lifestyle. You're taking quotes out of context and pulling conclusions based on that.

I'm not taking them out of context at all - seriously explain me exactly which quote I took out of context?  Saying the are pretenders (which is a direct quote) is incorrect and insulting.

If the problem is consumption, people here should be saying that people who spend 200K a year rich and deluded if they think they are middle class - that seems reasonable to me. But just earning it? People are not making that distinction in this thread.

Every quote. The reason I say you're taking them out of context is because the context of what people are saying is that earning 200k makes you rich. You're looking at that and saying "not true if I spend less than that" which is either intentionally skewing the concept of rich so as to shove it into just an expense model i.e. your idea that you're only rich if you spend alot of money, or it's not understanding what we've been saying.

Yes just earning 200k a year makes you rich regardless of your expenses. How is that not true by any measurement? No one is saying the problem is consumption, you're inventing that. People have been denying 200k a year is rich because they live in a HCOL area. The counter to that is that they think they're not rich because their norm is being surrounded by richness. They're hedonically adapted to the rich around them and no longer can perceive the rich. I agree that calling them pretenders is harsh, they're just living their lives. But that worldview, 200k is not rich, is so very very skewed.

I also think that when people hear the word rich they think what is being said is high class. That is not the case. I'm just saying rich, that is regardless of class. It's easy to conflate the two but not necessary in this case.

Note (in my edit, mind you) I said I don't see anything wrong with calling them rich - it was calling them pretenders and saying they are delusional if they feel "like a regular guy". I think that's a unhelpful perspective to take.

Another problem is the term "rich" is very often used as a negative term (discussed several times in this thread). You mention it's easy to conflate the two, and you are not, but maybe people here are (just in the other thread someone was saying someone who earned 200K can buy yachts, use private jets - trappings of upper class/snobbery). It's not surprising people who earn a lot in HCOL don't want to call themselves rich.

That was me talking about yachts and private jets. Again taking things out of context because I was making the claim that earning 200k gave you the ability to do those things which puts you distinctly in the rich category. People said "I don't do those things so I can't be rich." It's in fact people jumping in and saying not to call them rich who are the ones taking the concept negatively, I'm just saying they're rich and the backlash has been the equivalent of "Ew don't call me rich, I'm not rich, you're partaking in class warfare by saying someone is rich, it's dangerous to say someone is rich, look at the neighborhood I live in I can't be rich...etc."

People don't like being called rich - there's a strong anti-rich / anti-elite sentiment that's existed forever. I'm not sure why this is surprising to you.


2Birds1Stone

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #122 on: December 09, 2015, 08:54:36 AM »
Social class =/= wealth class. You can be middle class socially and have millions in the bank or have nothing in the bank and be living paycheck to paycheck. You can be upper class socially and live paycheck to paycheck with massive amount of debt, or you could make millions.

Middle class can be seen as the middle 50% of people. You can choose wealth ($9k - $315k according to the 2013 survey of consumer finances) or income ($25k/yr - $95k/yr according to 2010 census). If you fall to either side of that, you're not middle class. For DW and I, we are  middle class currently. We earned about $85k this past year and have about $55k in the bank.

I like your explanation, do you feel that a family living in NYC or the surrounding area earning a gross $100k/yr is "rich"?

My SO and I feel better off than most, not because of income but because of our LBYM lifestyle. If we wanted to buy a house in this area, have kids, etc it would be possible but hardly easy on "middle class" income according to that data. 


matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #123 on: December 09, 2015, 08:59:54 AM »
Which comes right back to where we started, people denying the reality around them to protect their sense of self. That's not surprising to me. I'm just pointing it out and engaging with people who don't/can't seem to see it. I do so because we're on a forum that is designed to help people see life a bit more "real" than our traditional consumerist culture would. And yet it is met with fingers firmly in ears and "LALALALALALALLALALALLALALALA".

Pooperman

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #124 on: December 09, 2015, 09:14:25 AM »
Social class =/= wealth class. You can be middle class socially and have millions in the bank or have nothing in the bank and be living paycheck to paycheck. You can be upper class socially and live paycheck to paycheck with massive amount of debt, or you could make millions.

Middle class can be seen as the middle 50% of people. You can choose wealth ($9k - $315k according to the 2013 survey of consumer finances) or income ($25k/yr - $95k/yr according to 2010 census). If you fall to either side of that, you're not middle class. For DW and I, we are  middle class currently. We earned about $85k this past year and have about $55k in the bank.

I like your explanation, do you feel that a family living in NYC or the surrounding area earning a gross $100k/yr is "rich"?

My SO and I feel better off than most, not because of income but because of our LBYM lifestyle. If we wanted to buy a house in this area, have kids, etc it would be possible but hardly easy on "middle class" income according to that data.

I live in your area (I took the 'NJ is cheaper' approach). $100k/yr makes you in the upper class or "rich" or whatever by 2010 standards. $100k might be the top end of the middle now, but without more data, I can't be sure. Still, buying a house in the NYC metro area (which is about 25 million people, or 2/3 of Canada, stuffed in an area the size of Los Angeles) is incredibly expensive on any income. I wouldn't recommend it.

Incomes here somewhat offset the increased housing costs... but not really in the slightest.

pbkmaine

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #125 on: December 09, 2015, 09:18:20 AM »
This thread is reminding me of Paul Allen's book, where he bitches that Bill Gates got a bigger share of Microsoft than he did and it's really not fair. Compared to most of the world, all of us here have obscene wealth and live in amazing luxury.


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StetsTerhune

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #126 on: December 09, 2015, 09:24:18 AM »
My takeaway whenever someone says things like "200k a year doesn't make me rich!" is that being "rich" must not be all it's cracked up to be. The person probably thought that if they ever made that much they'd feel different, or be commuting in their private dirigible or whatever. Now that they make that much, instead of making the obvious conclusion that money isn't the end goal and it's not going to make you happier, they've taken the mentally easier approach and just moved the goal line in their head -- Money is still the answer, they just need more than they thought.

I for one make a shitload of money. But I still can't buy a yacht, so I'm not rich. What else could "rich" mean?

Cpa Cat

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #127 on: December 09, 2015, 09:39:52 AM »
I think the issue is that many people's definition of middle class is a spacious house with a yard that your two kids and dog can play in, and an attached two-car garage - in a nice neighborhood.

In a city like New York, that isn't something that's affordable to most middle class families within a reasonable commute (1 hour?) from major city centers. It's not that it costs 3 times more to go to the doctor in NYC, or 3 times more to buy groceries, or 3 times more to pay your utilities, or even 3 times more to buy a car (although it might be hard to park it!).

When people talk about living in a HCOL area, they are referring to space - housing, specifically, and the distance between spacious housing and work (commute).

But the fact is that middle class in heavily urbanized areas isn't necessarily about spacious housing. If you want to live a lifestyle where the house and yard and two car garage are common, that lifestyle is easily available to the vast majority of educated professionals if they're willing to leave New York City (or Seattle, or wherever in California). But they don't want to. They like living in those places, they enjoy the experiences that they have access to in those places. Part of why they enjoy it is because they can afford to do things, due to their middle class incomes.

They look around and say, "When I compare a nice 2000 sq ft home in Kansas to a nice 2000 sq ft home in NYC, my increased income in NYC does not offset the cost differential. So I must not be middle class." Except that they are middle class. It's just that a middle class lifestyle in their area looks different from the one in Kansas. They have access to things - experiences, career advancement, etc - that middle classers in Kansas can't access.

So if someone is making 6 figures in a HCOL area and considers themselves barely middle class or not middle class at all, then they need a perspective adjustment. If your ability to feel "well off" is directly proportional to the size of your house, then you should find a job elsewhere. But I have a feeling that most people would find that there are reasons other than house-size that they are choosing to stay in their HCOL area.

dragoncar

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #128 on: December 09, 2015, 10:48:21 AM »
It's sad how many people here are claiming people with high income are "pretending" they are middle class because they live beneath their means are are frugal. Spending less than you earn should be celebrated here, and they shouldn't be criticized for their mental model of the world.

Literally nobody is saying that


Yes, people are saying that - you specifically called them "pretenders".

Here are a bunch of quotes from the two threads:

"
I find it hard to sympathize with these middle class pretenders, as I grew up in a family of doctors, am a lawyer, my wife is a doctor, and we live in the SF bay area.  We hang out with other lawyers and tech professionals.  If I can keep perspective on where this falls in the grand scheme of wealth, I think others should be able to as well."

"If your household income is 200K a year, you make more than 95% of Americans.
I don't care what your perceptions are based on who you hang out with. You have a skewed view of economic reality and your place among those you cross paths with every day, even if you live in a HCOL bubble. "
"B-b-b-but my perceptions make me think it's normal so it's normal right? ;)"

And on the other thread you were part of this exchange:
"So when someone who makes $200k or $500k a year acts as if they're a regular guy they may not be delusional but just have a different perspective on what income and wealth really means"
"Yeah, a delusional perspective"

This is all this is saying people who consider themselves middle class because they spend middle class are wrong and are deluding themselves. That's what I wrote before.


Compared to most of human history, and most of the world right now - all of us are rich - extremely rich. Pointing fingers at others and saying how they're rich with no perspective of real life is pretty sad considering the amount of luxury all of us have compared to most people throughout history.

Yeah no.  Read the quotes again.

Nobody is saying that people are pretenders merely because they are frugal.  They are pretenders if they think being frugal while earning $200k makes them middle class.  Plenty of people on this forum make $200k, live below their means, but recognize that they make an objectively high income.  I have no problem with these people.  I am one of these people.

The problem is, as macheweed and others have explained numerous times, when those same people say (or often complain) that they are middle class just because they spend like the middle class.  No, they still have a huge income stream that they are saving which will result in massive assets and the ability to do any reasonable middle or upper middle class activity they want without having to work anymore.  The true middle class does not have that luxury and it is absolutely delusional to pretend that you don't have that luxury when you do.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 10:51:03 AM by dragoncar »

mm1970

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #129 on: December 09, 2015, 11:05:09 AM »
I'm curious - Do people in New York, California, or wherever else people need six figures to be "middle class" actually pay more than 25% of their income in housing expense?

I get that $2000/mo buys you a shoebox in New York City and it buys you a beautiful 4000 sq ft house in Topeka, Kansas - but in either case, you're still living better than the majority of people around you when you have a six figure income. You still have the other 75% of your income to spend on non-essentials.
Yes.

Median household income in my town is $63,758.
Median rent on a 2BR apt is $2100 a month.

That's about 39.5%

Median home price is about $1,065,300

But my 'hood, it's more like $800,000
For a 2BR, only $720,000

Apocalyptica602

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #130 on: December 09, 2015, 11:39:35 AM »
Some people have mentioned this as well but I didn't see it really latched onto.

Social class =/= Economic class as well.

Two NYC Sanitation workers could clear > $200K. But would likely be perceived (and probably perceive themselves) as 'working class' whereas you take two Attorneys (at anywhere but biglaw firms) are making around the same. They would be much more likely to be perceived as 'upper middle class'.

A generalization for sure, but I'd purport that those two families wouldn't likely find themselves in the same social circle as well.

Also as an Engineer myself I find the social nuances get things muddled, I much prefer sticking to the numbers myself.

Left

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #131 on: December 09, 2015, 11:52:37 AM »
Stop being jealous? Mmm is mostly on savings rate and not earnings rate anyways

honeybbq

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #132 on: December 09, 2015, 11:54:18 AM »

That was me talking about yachts and private jets. Again taking things out of context because I was making the claim that earning 200k gave you the ability to do those things which puts you distinctly in the rich category.

And it was responded that you really CAN'T do that on 200k. It's simply not enough money.  If you scaled it down to a motor boat and first class seating... You'd have my buy in.

a rose by any other name

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #133 on: December 09, 2015, 12:01:30 PM »
Sure, but will $50k in NYC buy what $35k does in BFE. I don't think so, though maybe I'm wrong *shrug*. I get Dollar Slice's point about the livable rents, but I still think you have to compare ability to consume, which comes down to income and buying power. Renting isn't the same as owning. Taking transit isn't the same as driving your car. Can you own a house, have a couple of cars, have 2.1 kids, send them kids to good schools, eat out, take vacations overseas, save for retirement, etc. on $50k in Manhattan? I'd wager not, but I a middle class family in the heartland should be able to. I don't know what middle class in NYC looks like, but I don't accept that it's the median income.

Maybe, maybe not.  But you get to live in Manhattan.  Living in Manhattan is the driving a Lamborghini of the housing world.

It sure is! :-) 

To me, life in the suburbs with a couple of kids, a couple of cars, and home ownership sounds like a special kind of hell. Having to drag a ton and a half of metal around with you everywhere you go and find a place to put it when you're doing stuff? Having to pay thousands and thousands of dollars in realtor fees every time you move? All for the privilege of not having to interact with other human beings so much? Ugh.

Ah yes. This is literally exactly what life is like in the entire United States outside of NYC. It's too bad that there are no other places you can get around without driving and all those other places have laws requiring you to have kids, own a home, and have huge cars. Man, what a dump this country is outside of NYC, amirite?

matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #134 on: December 09, 2015, 12:02:10 PM »

That was me talking about yachts and private jets. Again taking things out of context because I was making the claim that earning 200k gave you the ability to do those things which puts you distinctly in the rich category.

And it was responded that you really CAN'T do that on 200k. It's simply not enough money.  If you scaled it down to a motor boat and first class seating... You'd have my buy in.

Stop taking my quotes out of context, it makes it easier to have conversations.

Left

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #135 on: December 09, 2015, 12:25:11 PM »
what difference does it really make? I mean nearly everyone on here aims to become FI... meaning each of us aims to have an egg that is worth "quite a lot"... That would put us towards the top end of middle class/rich (if you want to say it)... and yet, by MMM standards, we most likely would not be "living rich" with boats/planes/etc...

sounds more like bogleheads to me for the other case, investments without minimal living. And I do not think living minimally is the same as frugal living. You can live minimally but spend a lot on what you do... IE buying a $10k bike, vs a $10 bike... Spend what you want on things you want, and live without the extras until you need it <--- that's minimal to me, buy as needed and not because you think you might but end up never using it.

And no, I don't follow Mr MM's footsteps exactly, but I do enough that is similar and I like the community here so I stick around.

my question to is forum if they consider MMM as part of wealthy? :D if he spends less than average income, does that put him in lower class then? Income of other people doesn't really matter a whole lot to me. It's just more of the chasing after the jones to me, why get bothered by what someone else does? So I don't really care if they want to call themselves middle class/rich/poor... it doesn't mean anything
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 12:30:26 PM by eyem »

Dollar Slice

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #136 on: December 09, 2015, 12:27:17 PM »
To me, life in the suburbs with a couple of kids, a couple of cars, and home ownership sounds like a special kind of hell. Having to drag a ton and a half of metal around with you everywhere you go and find a place to put it when you're doing stuff? Having to pay thousands and thousands of dollars in realtor fees every time you move? All for the privilege of not having to interact with other human beings so much? Ugh.

Ah yes. This is literally exactly what life is like in the entire United States outside of NYC. It's too bad that there are no other places you can get around without driving and all those other places have laws requiring you to have kids, own a home, and have huge cars. Man, what a dump this country is outside of NYC, amirite?

I'm sorry to hear you have such an enormous chip on your shoulder about wherever it is that you are living. That must be hard for you to deal with.

Please see the comment chain that I was replying to, which specifically referenced living outside of HCOL cities in order to afford owning a home and owning cars and having kids. I was responding to that by pointing out how much those specific things do not appeal to me and therefore do not factor into my decision to live here. (I was trying to be polite by not mentioning all the reasons I don't want kids...)

If you want me to actually expound on why NYC is the best place in the world, we can start a new thread ;-)

matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #137 on: December 09, 2015, 12:30:48 PM »
what difference does it really make? I mean nearly everyone on here aims to become FI... meaning each of us aims to have an egg that is worth "quite a lot"... That would put us towards the top end of middle class/rich (if you want to say it)... and yet, by MMM standards, we most likely would not be "living rich" with boats/planes/etc...

sounds more like bogleheads to me for the other case, investments without minimal living. And I do not think living minimally is the same as frugal living. You can live minimally but spend a lot on what you do... IE buying a $10k bike, vs a $10 bike... Spend what you want on things you want, and live without the extras until you need it <--- that's minimal to me, buy as needed and not because you think you might but end up never using it.

And no, I don't follow Mr MM's footsteps exactly, but I do enough that is similar and I like the community here so I stick around.

And lo' the whole point of this thread has been shown yet again. Certainly you'll get a facepunch for a 10k bike. It doesn't matter if you value the bike or not. The 10k bike doesn't give you anymore utility or enjoyment than a $2000 bike. Spending 10k for the sake of spending 10k is wasteful and decidedly not "minimal" by any definition of the word. It's fine if that isn't your value set but like the OP said, what forum is this?

Pooperman

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #138 on: December 09, 2015, 12:32:56 PM »
what difference does it really make? I mean nearly everyone on here aims to become FI... meaning each of us aims to have an egg that is worth "quite a lot"... That would put us towards the top end of middle class/rich (if you want to say it)... and yet, by MMM standards, we most likely would not be "living rich" with boats/planes/etc...

sounds more like bogleheads to me for the other case, investments without minimal living. And I do not think living minimally is the same as frugal living. You can live minimally but spend a lot on what you do... IE buying a $10k bike, vs a $10 bike... Spend what you want on things you want, and live without the extras until you need it <--- that's minimal to me, buy as needed and not because you think you might but end up never using it.

And no, I don't follow Mr MM's footsteps exactly, but I do enough that is similar and I like the community here so I stick around.

And lo' the whole point of this thread has been shown yet again. Certainly you'll get a facepunch for a 10k bike. It doesn't matter if you value the bike or not. The 10k bike doesn't give you anymore utility or enjoyment than a $2000 bike. Spending 10k for the sake of spending 10k is wasteful and decidedly not "minimal" by any definition of the word. It's fine if that isn't your value set but like the OP said, what forum is this?
But-but-but it's *gold plated*!

Jack

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #139 on: December 09, 2015, 12:49:55 PM »
what difference does it really make? I mean nearly everyone on here aims to become FI... meaning each of us aims to have an egg that is worth "quite a lot"... That would put us towards the top end of middle class/rich (if you want to say it)... and yet, by MMM standards, we most likely would not be "living rich" with boats/planes/etc...

sounds more like bogleheads to me for the other case, investments without minimal living. And I do not think living minimally is the same as frugal living. You can live minimally but spend a lot on what you do... IE buying a $10k bike, vs a $10 bike... Spend what you want on things you want, and live without the extras until you need it <--- that's minimal to me, buy as needed and not because you think you might but end up never using it.

And no, I don't follow Mr MM's footsteps exactly, but I do enough that is similar and I like the community here so I stick around.

And lo' the whole point of this thread has been shown yet again. Certainly you'll get a facepunch for a 10k bike. It doesn't matter if you value the bike or not. The 10k bike doesn't give you anymore utility or enjoyment than a $2000 bike. Spending 10k for the sake of spending 10k is wasteful and decidedly not "minimal" by any definition of the word. It's fine if that isn't your value set but like the OP said, what forum is this?
But-but-but it's *gold plated*!

Well that just makes it even stupider; gold is heavy!

(I have a hard time justifying even $1K for a bike -- especially since I'd almost certainly buy a used one -- unless it's something weird like an electric, tandem, recumbent, cargo or folding bike.)

matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #140 on: December 09, 2015, 12:50:49 PM »
what difference does it really make? I mean nearly everyone on here aims to become FI... meaning each of us aims to have an egg that is worth "quite a lot"... That would put us towards the top end of middle class/rich (if you want to say it)... and yet, by MMM standards, we most likely would not be "living rich" with boats/planes/etc...

sounds more like bogleheads to me for the other case, investments without minimal living. And I do not think living minimally is the same as frugal living. You can live minimally but spend a lot on what you do... IE buying a $10k bike, vs a $10 bike... Spend what you want on things you want, and live without the extras until you need it <--- that's minimal to me, buy as needed and not because you think you might but end up never using it.

And no, I don't follow Mr MM's footsteps exactly, but I do enough that is similar and I like the community here so I stick around.

And lo' the whole point of this thread has been shown yet again. Certainly you'll get a facepunch for a 10k bike. It doesn't matter if you value the bike or not. The 10k bike doesn't give you anymore utility or enjoyment than a $2000 bike. Spending 10k for the sake of spending 10k is wasteful and decidedly not "minimal" by any definition of the word. It's fine if that isn't your value set but like the OP said, what forum is this?
But-but-but it's *gold plated*!

Well that just makes it even stupider; gold is heavy!

(I have a hard time justifying even $1K for a bike -- especially since I'd almost certainly buy a used one -- unless it's something weird like an electric, tandem, recumbent, cargo or folding bike.)

I actually agree but I'm trying not to freak out the wasteful spendypants.

Frugal_NYC

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #141 on: December 09, 2015, 01:02:49 PM »
what difference does it really make? I mean nearly everyone on here aims to become FI... meaning each of us aims to have an egg that is worth "quite a lot"... That would put us towards the top end of middle class/rich (if you want to say it)... and yet, by MMM standards, we most likely would not be "living rich" with boats/planes/etc...

sounds more like bogleheads to me for the other case, investments without minimal living. And I do not think living minimally is the same as frugal living. You can live minimally but spend a lot on what you do... IE buying a $10k bike, vs a $10 bike... Spend what you want on things you want, and live without the extras until you need it <--- that's minimal to me, buy as needed and not because you think you might but end up never using it.

And no, I don't follow Mr MM's footsteps exactly, but I do enough that is similar and I like the community here so I stick around.

And lo' the whole point of this thread has been shown yet again. Certainly you'll get a facepunch for a 10k bike. It doesn't matter if you value the bike or not. The 10k bike doesn't give you anymore utility or enjoyment than a $2000 bike. Spending 10k for the sake of spending 10k is wasteful and decidedly not "minimal" by any definition of the word. It's fine if that isn't your value set but like the OP said, what forum is this?

The amazing irony being the Mr. MM probably has a $2K bike lol

matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #142 on: December 09, 2015, 01:05:13 PM »
I'm not sure we share a definition of irony. If he has a 2k bike then that's not irony, but illustrative as he can easily afford a 10k bike.

Jack

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #143 on: December 09, 2015, 01:22:51 PM »
The amazing irony being the Mr. MM probably has a $2K bike lol

MMM has a $500 bike:

Sure, my bike had been stolen. But this was the first theft in many, many years of very carefree living. The Craigslist replacement value of that bike was probably about $500.

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #144 on: December 09, 2015, 01:23:02 PM »
Ah, WestchesterFrugal. Good times. KittyWrestler was also before my time.

We also had someone on here a while ago - SanDiegoFire. He was embarrassed by his 3 million dollar home and wanted to upgrade. He also definitely collapsed wealth and quality. Apparently the cream always rises to the top and the smartest, highest quality people go to Ivys and move in elite circles. It was of utmost importance for his children to remain in that environment.

http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/stay-put-renovate-tear-down-and-rebuild-or-move/
this was a good read

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #145 on: December 09, 2015, 01:38:18 PM »
And lo' the whole point of this thread has been shown yet again. Certainly you'll get a facepunch for a 10k bike. It doesn't matter if you value the bike or not. The 10k bike doesn't give you anymore utility or enjoyment than a $2000 bike. Spending 10k for the sake of spending 10k is wasteful and decidedly not "minimal" by any definition of the word. It's fine if that isn't your value set but like the OP said, what forum is this?
seriously? You would go around facepunching people whose lives aren't exactly as you prescribe it? If they somehow spend more than what you think is a "reasonable" cost? So do you facepunch everyone who spends more than you? Better not buy an extra water bottle when you are around...

This is what this whole thread is reads like to me... that earning $200k is somehow causing offense...

people come here because no matter what they earn, they want to get to FI, they reduce their spending. Not reduce what they earn. If some feel like $200k isn't much, and they are here to ask for help getting to FI, do you turn your back saying, oh you have it so easy, figure it out on your own... Do you help someone who earns $20k thinking it is an achievement if they get to FI?

And yes there are people here who want to FI with millions of dollars, or tens of millions, so what? Do you think people shouldn't be allowed here then? Just having a high goal/salary does not make it antimustachian and yet this is where the thread is? Because it is somehow bad to have a high income?

enjoying items that cost $2k instead of $20k, or even $2... if the $2 makes them as happy as the $20k one? Sure they can afford the $20k, but they don't... so if they make $20k, $200k or $2,000,000 does it make a difference? If someone makes $2million a year and you see them wearing a $2 jewelry, do you think they are being "cheap" because they can afford more? But if a minimum wage worker wears it, you find it acceptable? That's a personalty issue there, not because of what they earn, just someone thinking they "should" spend more because they earn more... so the $2 million/year guy if they live a style where they are happy with $2 things, then yes they are middle class to me... I could care less how much "more" they can afford, they don't, and that's that to me. What they have in the bank is not something that I have issue with
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 01:49:20 PM by eyem »

matchewed

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #146 on: December 09, 2015, 01:48:24 PM »
And lo' the whole point of this thread has been shown yet again. Certainly you'll get a facepunch for a 10k bike. It doesn't matter if you value the bike or not. The 10k bike doesn't give you anymore utility or enjoyment than a $2000 bike. Spending 10k for the sake of spending 10k is wasteful and decidedly not "minimal" by any definition of the word. It's fine if that isn't your value set but like the OP said, what forum is this?
seriously? You would go around facepunching people whose lives aren't exactly as you prescribe it? If they somehow spend more than what you think is a "reasonable" cost? So do you facepunch everyone who spends more than you? Better not buy an extra water bottle when you are around...

Yeah probably don't buy bottled water at all. It's extraordinarily wasteful. No I'm not saying that people should spend exactly to my values but that people should also spend optimally in the areas they value as well. There is a difference there you're not seeing.
This is what this whole thread is reads like to me... that earning $200k is somehow causing offense...

Maybe the fact that it's people who are attacking a simple statement, 200k is rich, with their perceived offense speaks more than any sort of thing you're saying. I have personally taken no offense and only see other people expressing outrage that they're being labeled as rich.

people come here because no matter what they earn, they want to get to FI, they reduce their spending. Not reduce what they earn. If some feel like $200k isn't much, and they are here to ask for help getting to FI, do you turn your back saying, oh you have it so easy, figure it out on your own... Do you help someone who earns $20k thinking it is an achievement if they get to FI?

And yes there are people here who want to FI with millions of dollars, or tens of millions, so what? Do you think people shouldn't be allowed here then? Just having a high goal/salary does not make it antimustachian and yet this is where the thread is? Because it is somehow bad to have a high income?

Don't argue points I don't make. It lends to bad conversations. Nothing you've said in this block of quote is related to anything I've said. You're literally pulling an argument out of thin air.

Left

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #147 on: December 09, 2015, 01:51:05 PM »
I dont argue any points, I add my own opinions to my own post... if you don't like it, then don't read it :D I am not going to post two post, one to respond and another for my own comments >.> nor am I going to put disclaimers to make it easier for some people to figure out that what I am posting is my own opinions... everything I write is my own sentiments...

and so what if $200k is rich, or even if it is poor. does it make a difference?

if "you" take issue with the word you, blame english, I do not refer to any one "you", there is no proper way of using a general 3rd person in english aside from saying you...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 01:53:42 PM by eyem »

arebelspy

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #148 on: December 09, 2015, 01:54:06 PM »

what difference does it really make? I mean nearly everyone on here aims to become FI... meaning each of us aims to have an egg that is worth "quite a lot"... That would put us towards the top end of middle class/rich (if you want to say it)... and yet, by MMM standards, we most likely would not be "living rich" with boats/planes/etc...

sounds more like bogleheads to me for the other case, investments without minimal living. And I do not think living minimally is the same as frugal living. You can live minimally but spend a lot on what you do... IE buying a $10k bike, vs a $10 bike... Spend what you want on things you want, and live without the extras until you need it <--- that's minimal to me, buy as needed and not because you think you might but end up never using it.

And no, I don't follow Mr MM's footsteps exactly, but I do enough that is similar and I like the community here so I stick around.

my question to is forum if they consider MMM as part of wealthy? :D if he spends less than average income, does that put him in lower class then? Income of other people doesn't really matter a whole lot to me. It's just more of the chasing after the jones to me, why get bothered by what someone else does? So I don't really care if they want to call themselves middle class/rich/poor... it doesn't mean anything

Um, yes. MMM is rich. No question.

He literally never has to work a day in his life.

It's hard to not view your posts as trolling.
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honeybbq

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Re: Forum check: what forum is this?
« Reply #149 on: December 09, 2015, 01:57:07 PM »
I haven't attacked anybody. You stated people on 200k HHI can have a yacht and a private jet. How is that taking it out of context?? I'm pointing out how ridiculous some of the characterizations of what a 200k income looks like have been. If you don't want it "taken out of context" then stop being silly about it.  Is 200k rich? Sure. But it doesn't look like what you seem to think it looks like, or the words that you are choosing to describe the lifestyle of someone who HAS a 200k lifestyle. Even if they are spendypants about it, that's not what it looks like.