Author Topic: For the music lovers . . .  (Read 5761 times)

GuitarStv

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For the music lovers . . .
« on: October 31, 2013, 12:45:10 PM »
http://tonerite.com/


Bahahahahahhahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaha . . .


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Achieve and Maintain Vintage Tone Now

A key to great tone is constantly playing-in your instrument. The ToneRite® is the world's most advanced and premier play-in device. Significantly accelerating the play-in process and providing increased tone, playability, and balance,  the ToneRite® makes all of this available in a nearly silent, high quality, and portable manner.

The secret behind the ToneRite® is its ability to continually produce and efficiently transfer vibrational energy into an instrument. ToneRite® safely recreates and magnifies the same physics that naturally occur while playing. This stimulation generates a change to the instrument's integrated components and increases the resonate together as a whole.  Not only will your instrument sound better, but the notes themselves will come easier and allow for playing difficult passages with less fatigue. The ToneRite® will result in added volume with a fuller and more balanced sound.


Bought too many instruments to play?

Let's attach this device to your many instruments and let the vintage toanz roll out!  Because we all know that causing an instrument to vibrate totally makes it better!  Because . . . ummm . . . sciency stuff.  Or something.  Give us your money now.  And it will waste electricity at the same time!

GuitarStv

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2013, 12:52:29 PM »
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The play-in process is the scientific phenomenon in which the quality and volume of sound from an  instrument increases with constant stimulation.

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The secret behind the ToneRite® is a small high-g vibration that can silently excite the body of an instrument for long periods at a time. Through this process of de-dampening, the instrument can freely resonate as a whole.

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In a general sense, the ToneRite® works by releasing the inherent stress in the instrument by de-dampening.  Fine instruments are crafted from many pieces of wood and material glued and bound together.  This system naturally has tension built into it. Over time, the tension natrually gets worse due to entropy.

Jamesqf

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2013, 03:16:23 PM »
Because we all know that causing an instrument to vibrate totally makes it better!  Because . . . ummm . . . sciency stuff.  Or something.

Don't know about this device, but it is perfectly true that (wooden, non-electric) instruments do develop a better tone if they're played frequently, and lose it if they sit unplayed for a long time. 

lentilman

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2013, 07:13:32 PM »
It's been widely reported that "played in" wooden instruments sound better.

On the other hand, here is a scientific study of violin twins.  One violin was kept in a museum and the other constantly played over three years.  The conclusion is that there is no statistical difference to observers between the sounds. 

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/IntaViolin.pdf

(Although, to be fair, the owner of the played violin was able to identify it playing blindfolded at the 99% CI.  This might have be due to touch due to wear patterns on the varnish)

GuitarStv

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2013, 07:17:41 AM »
Because we all know that causing an instrument to vibrate totally makes it better!  Because . . . ummm . . . sciency stuff.  Or something.

Don't know about this device, but it is perfectly true that (wooden, non-electric) instruments do develop a better tone if they're played frequently, and lose it if they sit unplayed for a long time. 

rofl . . . OK, I guess that some of the people on this forum have drunk the kool-aid.

There's far too much hocus-pocus surrounding musical instruments.  I'd be really interested if anyone had done a study that showed any difference between an instrument that has been played vs one that has not.  Proving that will be akin to proving the existence of unicorns though . . .

Much as we like to personify them, at the end of the day an instrument is still a chunk of wood and glue with some strings.  They don't operate by magical non-scientific rules just because we devote a lot of time to playing them.

DoubleDown

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 10:52:02 AM »
I have GOT to get one of these. I'm a pretty crappy guitar player, this should allow me to sound like a pro. All those additional vibrations will no doubt improve my playing ability and the resonance (or "the resonate" as they call it). Probably will get two in fact, so I can hook one up to my digital synthesizer.

SavingMon(k)ey

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 12:17:53 PM »
That is a completely stupid piece of junk being sold there. That being said, as a professional musician of acoustic string instruments I know from experience that "playing in" an instrument really does make a difference. Especially if it's a brand new instrument just off the luthier's bench, the sound can change drastically. I love to believe in science, but my experience just tells me otherwise in this case.

lentilman

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 03:37:50 PM »
Because we all know that causing an instrument to vibrate totally makes it better!  Because . . . ummm . . . sciency stuff.  Or something.

Don't know about this device, but it is perfectly true that (wooden, non-electric) instruments do develop a better tone if they're played frequently, and lose it if they sit unplayed for a long time. 

rofl . . . OK, I guess that some of the people on this forum have drunk the kool-aid.

There's far too much hocus-pocus surrounding musical instruments.  I'd be really interested if anyone had done a study that showed any difference between an instrument that has been played vs one that has not.  Proving that will be akin to proving the existence of unicorns though . . .

Much as we like to personify them, at the end of the day an instrument is still a chunk of wood and glue with some strings.  They don't operate by magical non-scientific rules just because we devote a lot of time to playing them.

Did you read the post above yours?  There is a link that you would really be interested in. 

jdoolin

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 05:26:09 PM »
You know what will make your stringed instruments sound better?

Regular practice.

Just so happens that regular practice "plays-in" your instrument as well.

All the fancy gizmos and expensive hardware or boutique amps and custom made Les Pauls and Martins in the world aren't going to be worth a damn if you don't know how to play it in the first place.

SavingMon(k)ey

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 05:32:48 PM »
You know what will make your stringed instruments sound better?

Regular practice.

Just so happens that regular practice "plays-in" your instrument as well.

All the fancy gizmos and expensive hardware or boutique amps and custom made Les Pauls and Martins in the world aren't going to be worth a damn if you don't know how to play it in the first place.
+1.

SisterX

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2013, 02:33:24 PM »
It's been widely reported that "played in" wooden instruments sound better.

On the other hand, here is a scientific study of violin twins.  One violin was kept in a museum and the other constantly played over three years.  The conclusion is that there is no statistical difference to observers between the sounds. 

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/reprints/IntaViolin.pdf

(Although, to be fair, the owner of the played violin was able to identify it playing blindfolded at the 99% CI.  This might have be due to touch due to wear patterns on the varnish)

As a violinist, I can almost guarantee that it was based on touch.  When you become familiar with your instrument, NOTHING else feels quite the same.  I can do the same thing with different bows, pick up my standpartner's by accident and immediately think, "This is not mine.  It feels weird." 

Yeah, this is a product that basically says, "Too lazy to practice?  No worries!  We've got you covered!"  At least when my violin case is sitting in a corner, unused, it makes me feel guilty about all the time and effort (and money, and schooling) I've put into it in the past, and now I'm squandering those skills by not keeping up with them!

Brb, gotta go pull out my old friend and do a little practicing....

Jamesqf

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2013, 09:19:54 PM »
Much as we like to personify them, at the end of the day an instrument is still a chunk of wood and glue with some strings.  They don't operate by magical non-scientific rules just because we devote a lot of time to playing them.

What exactly is "non-scientific" about it?  Even simple materials, like metal alloys and polymers, can develop fatigue cracks from vibration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_stress_cracking.  Then there are well-documented, and somewhat understood, things like work hardening: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

Wood is not a simple material, but a complex & highly-structured composite of cellulose, lignin, and other materials.  Why should it not undergo similar processes from the vibrations of playing?  No hocus-pocus required :-)

GuitarStv

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 07:14:58 AM »
Is it possible that wood has special properties that are triggered by vibration that nobody in human history has yet proven?  Sure.  Anything's possible I guess.  It's possible that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe with a touch of His noodly appendage.


The website in question uses a lot of hocus pocus in an attempt to sell their product:

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The play-in process can be accelerated and you should see moderate to large gains in tone, balance, resonance, and playability. A lot of older instruments really score well in increasing the ‘playability,’ or how easy a note is to pull from your instrument. A lighter touch, more dynamic range, etc.

Damn. Here I was thinking that my old guitars are less playable because of worn frets, shrinking/warped wood, and the need for a new setup. Turns out the answer all along was to vibrate the strings more rather than get them setup properly and the frets recrowned/replaced.  Weird that the many years of playing/vibrating the strings has just worn them rather than turned these instruments into super playable ultra guitars.


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The play-in process is the scientific phenomenon in which the quality and volume of sound from an instrument increases with constant stimulation.

Ah good. We're using science. Uh . . . so why is there no actual research on the website. Especially under the tab marked "research". Or . . . you know, even simple graphs? Measured results from experiments? Evidence of experiments?


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In a general sense, the ToneRite® works by releasing the inherent stress in the instrument by de-dampening. Fine instruments are crafted from many pieces of wood and material glued and bound together. This system naturally has tension built into it. Over time, the tension naturally gets worse due to entropy.

???

Entropy . . .
1. a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time" - nope
2. lack of order or predictability; gradual decline into disorder.
"a marketplace where entropy reigns supreme" - I guess this is what the writer is going for??
3. (in information theory) a logarithmic measure of the rate of transfer of information in a particular message or language. - nope

So, tell me how entropy is supposed to increase tension in an instrument? And explain to me why an instrument that isn't played for a long time doesn't just explode from all the tension that's building up over the years . . .


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The secret behind the ToneRite® is a small high-g vibration that can silently excite the body of an instrument for long periods at a time.

When you say high-g . . . you mean it's playing a high-g note? Or is this just a fancy way of someone saying something is fast (like high g acceleration)?


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The Play-In process involves the individual components of an instrument learning to resonate as a whole instead of against one another destructively. This process occurs due to vibrational energy that effectively transfers into the instrument to de-dampen it. The result of this process is added volume, resonance, dynamic range, playability, etc.

'Vibrational energy' is a meaningless phrase. Kinetic energy can be transferred into an object by vibrating the object though. The only thing is, the instrument would lose all of this kinetic energy via heat and noise. Remember how you were talking about entropy earlier? That's basically what entropy is all about.

What is all this about an instrument learning to resonate? Which part of the wood is learning? Can we test the instrument on how much it has learned? Jesus, this is poorly written.




  . . . . All of this for a 150$ vibrator?

SavingMon(k)ey

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2013, 11:27:30 AM »
Much as we like to personify them, at the end of the day an instrument is still a chunk of wood and glue with some strings.  They don't operate by magical non-scientific rules just because we devote a lot of time to playing them.

What exactly is "non-scientific" about it?  Even simple materials, like metal alloys and polymers, can develop fatigue cracks from vibration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_stress_cracking.  Then there are well-documented, and somewhat understood, things like work hardening: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_hardening

Wood is not a simple material, but a complex & highly-structured composite of cellulose, lignin, and other materials.  Why should it not undergo similar processes from the vibrations of playing?  No hocus-pocus required :-)
+1. Wood is a very complex material. It also responds to other environmental factors like humidity and temperature, and I can say for sure my violin and other instruments sound totally different when it is humid. No hocus-pocus, but it is not a straight-forward material.

Jamesqf

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2013, 12:26:52 PM »
Is it possible that wood has special properties that are triggered by vibration that nobody in human history has yet proven?

Who says nobody has proven them?  And what exactly is your standard of proof?  Just for a simple example, it's been known for millenia, I suppose, that bending a piece of iron wire back and forth many times will eventually cause it to break.  That's experimental proof of the phenomenon of fatigue, isn't it?  Do you really need an atomic-level explanation of how the metal's crystal structures alter before you'll accept that it happens?

In the same way, you have generations of musicians observing that wooden instruments which are played tend to have better sound than ones that aren't.  (And even if it's not you doing the playing, so no benefit from practice.)  Why do you need an atomic-level explanation of the physics involved?

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The website in question uses a lot of hocus pocus in an attempt to sell their product:

Well, I won't disagree on that.  But extrapolating from one con job is like claiming that cars don't run because there are sites using hocus-pocus to sell e.g. mpg-increasing magnets.

GuitarStv

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2013, 01:05:09 PM »
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Who says nobody has proven them?  And what exactly is your standard of proof?  Just for a simple example, it's been known for millenia, I suppose, that bending a piece of iron wire back and forth many times will eventually cause it to break.  That's experimental proof of the phenomenon of fatigue, isn't it?  Do you really need an atomic-level explanation of how the metal's crystal structures alter before you'll accept that it happens?

In the same way, you have generations of musicians observing that wooden instruments which are played tend to have better sound than ones that aren't.  (And even if it's not you doing the playing, so no benefit from practice.)  Why do you need an atomic-level explanation of the physics involved?


My standard of proof is measurable, reproducible evidence.  If you can find some, I'll accept it.  The only study I've been able to find on the matter indicated that there was no audible difference between an instrument that had been played a lot and one that hadn't.

You've claimed that "you have generations of musicians observing that wooden instruments which are played tend to have better sound than ones that aren't".  I would answer that generations of people once observed that praying to Ra and making blood sacrifices preserved the order of the universe.  Clearly you must also agree with this view, as you place so much faith in unverified observation.  I'd also answer that I know many musicians who don't buy into the vibrating=good theory you're supporting.




Jamesqf, what you're suggesting is not a simple materials change taking place.  You're suggesting that:
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(wooden, non-electric) instruments do develop a better tone if they're played frequently, and lose it if they sit unplayed for a long time. 

When you cold work steel, it becomes hard.  It doesn't become soft if you ignore it for a couple weeks.  When something develops stress fractures, it has cracks.  The cracks don't magically heal themselves after a couple months in a storage shed.  I can maybe buy the possibility of some previously unmeasured change happening from the vibrations due to playing in a stringed instrument . . . wood might develop cracks, glue might loosen, etc.  But that effect is not going to reverse itself.





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+1. Wood is a very complex material. It also responds to other environmental factors like humidity and temperature, and I can say for sure my violin and other instruments sound totally different when it is humid. No hocus-pocus, but it is not a straight-forward material.

Sure, the guitars that I have sound slightly different from day to day depending on humidity, temperature, etc.  These are all measurable changes.  Sound moves differently at different pressures, humidity changes the way the guitar resonates, on a cold day I have to retune a guitar after 10 minutes of playing because the strings warm up and go slightly flat.  Nobody has yet given any explanation as to how vibrating a piece of wood makes the piece of wood invariably sound better though.

Please note . . . what's being described is not simply a change in material property (which is entirely possible - if unproven).  It's a change in material property that is invariably for the better for musical instruments.  This is where the hocus pocus is coming into play.


 . . . and I still think that it's pretty damned stupid to pay 150$ for a vibrator for your guitar or violin.

Jamesqf

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Re: For the music lovers . . .
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2013, 03:50:46 PM »
When you cold work steel, it becomes hard.  It doesn't become soft if you ignore it for a couple weeks.

Wood is not steel, you know.  While I'm not a materials scientist by any means, I'm pretty sure you could find materials that undergo reversible changes in properties, such that they acquire some characteristic through being "worked" in some way, then lose it if left idle for some time.  Take for instance rechargable batteries: most of them can be charged, then gradually lose that charge (over weeks/months) if not used.

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Nobody has yet given any explanation as to how vibrating a piece of wood makes the piece of wood invariably sound better though.
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I could certainly come up with an hypothesis or two.  As for instance, lignin is a complex polymer, which in nature has varying degrees of polymerization & cross-linking between polymer molecules.  Vibration might cause the formation of additional cross-links along the direction of vibration (vibrations carry energy), increasing the stiffness of the wood, and hence the volume & resonance of the sound.  Left alone, those additional cross-links would gradually decay back to their default state.

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Please note . . . what's being described is not simply a change in material property (which is entirely possible - if unproven).  It's a change in material property that is invariably for the better for musical instruments.

I have to wonder, though, whether an instrument that was consistently played badly for a similar period might not develop a worse sound?

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. . . and I still think that it's pretty damned stupid to pay 150$ for a vibrator for your guitar or violin.

That we agree on :-)