Author Topic: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale  (Read 18902 times)

clarkfan1979

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Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« on: November 25, 2023, 10:46:32 AM »
It's been about one year since I posted last time. I was told that it might be a good idea to be less specific because I don't want to give away any personal information on the internet. I thought it was a good suggestion, so some of the information below is vague, on purpose. This is meant to be part educational for others and part venting because I saw this happening in slow motion from 2015 and I couldn't stop it.   

I have some close friends that bought a house in a flood zone in 2015 for 285K. Flood Insurance is subsidized by the government. In 2015, it was well advertised that the federal government was going to slowly start pulling back their government subsidy for flood insurance. Owners were going to pay closer to market rate for flood insurance with steady increases over the next 10 years. I told my friends to consider this concept before they bought in a flood zone. I was laughed out of the room and I haven't said anything since.

Today was the day that my close friends realized that they can't afford to live in the house anymore. They got a letter with another flood insurance increase from Citizens, which is the last option for people who cannot get insurance anywhere else. It was kind of emotional. They immediately had a phone conversation with a real estate agent about selling. I think they were kind of prepared for it because they know when the annual bill comes every month. Today was just confirmation, but it still hurt. They are retired on a fixed income.

The good news is that the house is in pretty good shape and almost ready to list. They could probably be ready in about 1 month. The house flooded last year in hurricane Ian and the house has been fully remodeled. It's one of the most low elevation lots in the neighborhood. It's about 2 feet lower than the other original houses from the neighborhood from the 1980's. It's about 5 feet lower than the newer builds within the past 2-3 years.

I'm guessing they will get 550K for the house. They want to get 750K for it, which might be a little high. I don't think they are factoring in the cost of the new higher flood insurance, which is going to hurt them with the sales price. Many of the other houses in the neighborhood don't have the extra cost of flood insurance. When they look at comps they are not doing apples to apples comparisons. Maybe reality is somewhere in the middle at 650K?

If they get 750K, they want to buy another house for 500K with no mortgage. I think they might come up a little short. It will be interesting to see if they buy a 400K house with no mortgage or a 500K house with a 100K mortgage. We will see what happens. 

scottish

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2023, 01:27:56 PM »
Bummer for them.   But who would pay 500K + for a house that's going to flood?   Not might flood, but guaranteed to flood?

NorCal

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2023, 01:33:17 PM »
Yep, this is only going to be a bigger and bigger issue over time.  There's a number of threads about insurance issues going on now. 

It's less of an issue right now simply because there's a shortage of homes in many metro areas.  There are still buyers for hard-to-insure homes simply because there aren't enough homes. 

But eventually there will either be a shortage of buyers for these homes or zero insurers willing to take on the risk.  Companies like Citizens may have to dramatically raise rates or do large special assessments.

Someone will be left holding the bag.  Maybe there will be some type of bailout, but I wouldn't bet my financial future on it.

Check out https://riskfactor.com/ to see the risk of your property.

I'm thankful my property is low risk.  But I see my dad's house has an 8.8% risk of a catastrophic fire over the next 20 years.  I nearly guarantee he will lose his CA insurance in the next decade. 

Kris

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2023, 02:21:09 PM »
Bummer for them.   But who would pay 500K + for a house that's going to flood?   Not might flood, but guaranteed to flood?

Right? I would think that property would be pretty hard to sell. Then again, it is Florida, land of climate change deniers…

Just Joe

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2023, 04:44:33 PM »
We visited the Florida Keys a while back. It was amazing to consider how every property we saw was at serious risk. Flooding is pretty much inevitable. And yet, there were very expensive homes there.

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2023, 06:51:44 PM »
Any idea what their insurance cost per month was?

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2023, 09:18:22 PM »
Yep, this is only going to be a bigger and bigger issue over time.  There's a number of threads about insurance issues going on now. 

It's less of an issue right now simply because there's a shortage of homes in many metro areas.  There are still buyers for hard-to-insure homes simply because there aren't enough homes. 

But eventually there will either be a shortage of buyers for these homes or zero insurers willing to take on the risk.  Companies like Citizens may have to dramatically raise rates or do large special assessments.

Someone will be left holding the bag.  Maybe there will be some type of bailout, but I wouldn't bet my financial future on it.

Check out https://riskfactor.com/ to see the risk of your property.

I'm thankful my property is low risk.  But I see my dad's house has an 8.8% risk of a catastrophic fire over the next 20 years.  I nearly guarantee he will lose his CA insurance in the next decade.


We live in a forest, more or less, and had a lightning fire last summer 100m from the house. The risk factor site says we have a less than o.1% chance of a wildfire now and going forward. Sounds like nonsense. They call that moderate, which also makes no sense.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2023, 12:59:08 PM »
Yep, this is only going to be a bigger and bigger issue over time.  There's a number of threads about insurance issues going on now. 

It's less of an issue right now simply because there's a shortage of homes in many metro areas.  There are still buyers for hard-to-insure homes simply because there aren't enough homes. 

But eventually there will either be a shortage of buyers for these homes or zero insurers willing to take on the risk.  Companies like Citizens may have to dramatically raise rates or do large special assessments.

Someone will be left holding the bag.  Maybe there will be some type of bailout, but I wouldn't bet my financial future on it.

Check out https://riskfactor.com/ to see the risk of your property.

I'm thankful my property is low risk.  But I see my dad's house has an 8.8% risk of a catastrophic fire over the next 20 years.  I nearly guarantee he will lose his CA insurance in the next decade.


We live in a forest, more or less, and had a lightning fire last summer 100m from the house. The risk factor site says we have a less than o.1% chance of a wildfire now and going forward. Sounds like nonsense. They call that moderate, which also makes no sense.

Years ago we lived in the middle of a mixed hardwood forest.  There was a fire on the neighbouring property, because the idiot owner started a fire without proper precautions.  So fun watching the water bombers fly overhead.   /s

All it takes is fuel and an idiot.  Back when more people smoked there were so many roadside fires from people throwing their cigarette out of the car instead of putting it out in the ashtray.

Villanelle

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2023, 02:04:30 PM »
Concerns about increasing insurance are just another reason we will most likely sell out southern CA  rental property in the new year.  Fire, not flood, but the outcomes are similar--increasing insurance and danger. 

We visited the Florida Keys a while back. It was amazing to consider how every property we saw was at serious risk. Flooding is pretty much inevitable. And yet, there were very expensive homes there.

Most houses in the Keys are built on stilts though, right?  I have several family members in the Keys.  In fact, one of them is in a construction adjacent business that relates entirely to building on stilts.  I know one family converted a space underneath the stilts into a finished bedroom and have stated that it isn't covered by the flood insurance or considered in the actual sqft. because, as I understand it, you technically aren't allowed to build finishes spaces at ground level.  Other than the finished space, it is outdoor patio and garage on that level. 

uniwelder

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2023, 02:26:15 PM »
Yep, this is only going to be a bigger and bigger issue over time.  There's a number of threads about insurance issues going on now. 

It's less of an issue right now simply because there's a shortage of homes in many metro areas.  There are still buyers for hard-to-insure homes simply because there aren't enough homes. 

But eventually there will either be a shortage of buyers for these homes or zero insurers willing to take on the risk.  Companies like Citizens may have to dramatically raise rates or do large special assessments.

Someone will be left holding the bag.  Maybe there will be some type of bailout, but I wouldn't bet my financial future on it.

Check out https://riskfactor.com/ to see the risk of your property.

I'm thankful my property is low risk.  But I see my dad's house has an 8.8% risk of a catastrophic fire over the next 20 years.  I nearly guarantee he will lose his CA insurance in the next decade.


We live in a forest, more or less, and had a lightning fire last summer 100m from the house. The risk factor site says we have a less than o.1% chance of a wildfire now and going forward. Sounds like nonsense. They call that moderate, which also makes no sense.

I checked the site for my home and am not very impressed.  Its located in a forested area, completely surrounded by trees, but says the fire risk factor is 3/10.  However, flood risk due to the small stream in my yard is 7/10, even though the basement of my house is 10-15 feet higher in elevation.  Certainly, it might be a great tool for general neighborhood level risk assessment, but not for individual properties, or at least ones with varied terrain. 

uniwelder

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2023, 02:32:45 PM »
Today was the day that my close friends realized that they can't afford to live in the house anymore. They got a letter with another flood insurance increase from Citizens, which is the last option for people who cannot get insurance anywhere else. It was kind of emotional. They immediately had a phone conversation with a real estate agent about selling. I think they were kind of prepared for it because they know when the annual bill comes every month. Today was just confirmation, but it still hurt. They are retired on a fixed income.

Coincidentally, I happened to read this on NPR (link is to affiliate reporting agency) today--- https://www.wlrn.org/wlrn-investigations/2023-11-14/citizens-property-insurance-unlicensed-inspectors-florida-homeowners

Its about how Citizens is trying to decrease the number of high risk houses it covers, and the shady practices that accompany that.  Apparently, unlicensed inspectors in some cases have created phony reports to elevate the cost of insurance or deny coverage to homeowners.  OP, it might be worthwhile for your friends to check out why the cost of coverage has gone up so much.

Askel

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2023, 02:43:44 PM »

Check out https://riskfactor.com/ to see the risk of your property.

Interesting, according to that I'm a 9/10 for a flood risk with a 6% chance of seeing 4 feet of water in the next 30 years (not unreasonable, the house is in a small valley with  a creek literally right behind it that feeds a pretty major watershed). 

But I don't show up on the federal flood maps and don't have flood insurance.   

My previous home was also in a similar situation- not a on a flood plain, but there was a dam upstream that if it ever completely let go, would certainly wipe out that house.  But still, no flood insurance.   

I guess that's the redeeming feature of sub $100k real estate, stuff like this doesn't really keep me up at night.   Current property might actually be worth more if our weird house was washed away. :D 

clarkfan1979

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2023, 04:19:40 PM »
I just got back from my Florida trip. Most of the damage from hurricane Ian in 2022 was from the storm surge. The 140 mph winds in the gulf + high tide resulted in my friends house getting about 1 ft. of river water. My friends house is about two feet below normal, which puts them in a flood plain. It seems like you need two more feet of elevation to avoid flood insurance. New builds are another 3-5 feet above "normal".

In my opinion, they are still building like crazy in Florida (Lee County). The main difference post hurricane Ian is that people are spending more money on fill dirt to prop their houses up another 3-5 feet. Some of this is due to new regulations to get a building permit and some of it is for the owners peace of mind.

 




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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2023, 04:43:27 PM »
It's been about one year since I posted last time. I was told that it might be a good idea to be less specific because I don't want to give away any personal information on the internet. I thought it was a good suggestion, so some of the information below is vague, on purpose. This is meant to be part educational for others and part venting because I saw this happening in slow motion from 2015 and I couldn't stop it.   

I have some close friends that bought a house in a flood zone in 2015 for 285K. Flood Insurance is subsidized by the government. In 2015, it was well advertised that the federal government was going to slowly start pulling back their government subsidy for flood insurance. Owners were going to pay closer to market rate for flood insurance with steady increases over the next 10 years. I told my friends to consider this concept before they bought in a flood zone. I was laughed out of the room and I haven't said anything since.

Today was the day that my close friends realized that they can't afford to live in the house anymore. They got a letter with another flood insurance increase from Citizens, which is the last option for people who cannot get insurance anywhere else. It was kind of emotional. They immediately had a phone conversation with a real estate agent about selling. I think they were kind of prepared for it because they know when the annual bill comes every month. Today was just confirmation, but it still hurt. They are retired on a fixed income.

The good news is that the house is in pretty good shape and almost ready to list. They could probably be ready in about 1 month. The house flooded last year in hurricane Ian and the house has been fully remodeled. It's one of the most low elevation lots in the neighborhood. It's about 2 feet lower than the other original houses from the neighborhood from the 1980's. It's about 5 feet lower than the newer builds within the past 2-3 years.

I'm guessing they will get 550K for the house. They want to get 750K for it, which might be a little high. I don't think they are factoring in the cost of the new higher flood insurance, which is going to hurt them with the sales price. Many of the other houses in the neighborhood don't have the extra cost of flood insurance. When they look at comps they are not doing apples to apples comparisons. Maybe reality is somewhere in the middle at 650K?

If they get 750K, they want to buy another house for 500K with no mortgage. I think they might come up a little short. It will be interesting to see if they buy a 400K house with no mortgage or a 500K house with a 100K mortgage. We will see what happens.

I’m confused - I thought citizens didn’t even sell flood policies.   They are starting to require some policies to have flood coverage per the requirement of the state legislature, but it affects homes in flood zones anyhow, which arguably should have purchased flood coverage already one would think.   Maybe your friends are confused or conflating issues?   =/

That said, insurance prices here ARE nuts.   Our costs have more than doubled over the past two years and we are with Citizens, and we were recently offered a buyout from citizens that would have more than tripled our costs.  I hate citizens as much as everyone, but they can’t reasonably expect me to opt into paying nearly $12K per year on a $250K  insured value policy.  That’s insane. 


clarkfan1979

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2023, 04:56:46 PM »
It's been about one year since I posted last time. I was told that it might be a good idea to be less specific because I don't want to give away any personal information on the internet. I thought it was a good suggestion, so some of the information below is vague, on purpose. This is meant to be part educational for others and part venting because I saw this happening in slow motion from 2015 and I couldn't stop it.   

I have some close friends that bought a house in a flood zone in 2015 for 285K. Flood Insurance is subsidized by the government. In 2015, it was well advertised that the federal government was going to slowly start pulling back their government subsidy for flood insurance. Owners were going to pay closer to market rate for flood insurance with steady increases over the next 10 years. I told my friends to consider this concept before they bought in a flood zone. I was laughed out of the room and I haven't said anything since.

Today was the day that my close friends realized that they can't afford to live in the house anymore. They got a letter with another flood insurance increase from Citizens, which is the last option for people who cannot get insurance anywhere else. It was kind of emotional. They immediately had a phone conversation with a real estate agent about selling. I think they were kind of prepared for it because they know when the annual bill comes every month. Today was just confirmation, but it still hurt. They are retired on a fixed income.

The good news is that the house is in pretty good shape and almost ready to list. They could probably be ready in about 1 month. The house flooded last year in hurricane Ian and the house has been fully remodeled. It's one of the most low elevation lots in the neighborhood. It's about 2 feet lower than the other original houses from the neighborhood from the 1980's. It's about 5 feet lower than the newer builds within the past 2-3 years.

I'm guessing they will get 550K for the house. They want to get 750K for it, which might be a little high. I don't think they are factoring in the cost of the new higher flood insurance, which is going to hurt them with the sales price. Many of the other houses in the neighborhood don't have the extra cost of flood insurance. When they look at comps they are not doing apples to apples comparisons. Maybe reality is somewhere in the middle at 650K?

If they get 750K, they want to buy another house for 500K with no mortgage. I think they might come up a little short. It will be interesting to see if they buy a 400K house with no mortgage or a 500K house with a 100K mortgage. We will see what happens.

I’m confused - I thought citizens didn’t even sell flood policies.   They are starting to require some policies to have flood coverage per the requirement of the state legislature, but it affects homes in flood zones anyhow, which arguably should have purchased flood coverage already one would think.   Maybe your friends are confused or conflating issues?   =/

That said, insurance prices here ARE nuts.   Our costs have more than doubled over the past two years and we are with Citizens, and we were recently offered a buyout from citizens that would have more than tripled our costs.  I hate citizens as much as everyone, but they can’t reasonably expect me to opt into paying nearly $12K per year on a $250K  insured value policy.  That’s insane.

It's very possible that my friends are conflating the regular fire policy with their flood policy and inaccurately using the word "Citizens" for both. They need someone to blame, so right now Citizens is the enemy. Both policies have gone up to the point that they can no longer afford the payment. I might be able to get more specific information at a later time.

I have a long-term rental in Lee County, FL. I bought it as a primary in 2012 and converted it into a rental in 2015 and still own it today. Over the past 3 years my policy has increased by $1800/year or $150/month. However, during this same time my rent increased from $1850/month to $2550/month. As a result, the cash flow in 2023 is still way better than 2020, so I continue to keep it. 

2020: $1450/year (home insurance)
2021: $1950/year (home insurance)
2022: $2150/year (home insurance)
2023: $3250/year (home insurance. 


NorCal

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2023, 08:19:36 PM »

Check out https://riskfactor.com/ to see the risk of your property.

Interesting, according to that I'm a 9/10 for a flood risk with a 6% chance of seeing 4 feet of water in the next 30 years (not unreasonable, the house is in a small valley with  a creek literally right behind it that feeds a pretty major watershed). 

But I don't show up on the federal flood maps and don't have flood insurance.   

My previous home was also in a similar situation- not a on a flood plain, but there was a dam upstream that if it ever completely let go, would certainly wipe out that house.  But still, no flood insurance.   

I guess that's the redeeming feature of sub $100k real estate, stuff like this doesn't really keep me up at night.   Current property might actually be worth more if our weird house was washed away. :D

I've read a few articles on the topic, but don't know a lot of details.

My understanding is that most flood maps are woefully out of date.  Apparently they can be fairly difficult to get right, and there's a lot of political pressure against having them represent real risk.

The moment someone's home gets reclassified as being in a flood zone (with associated insurance risk, loss of value, etc), elected representatives get thousands of angry calls. 

I believe the Riskfactors website and FirstStreet Foundation are part of an effort to get more information about climate risk into the hands of industry and individuals. 

merula

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2023, 07:32:48 AM »
I've worked in Property & Casualty insurance for nearly two decades.

Flood maps are insanely out of date. The insurance industry in general has a hard time with systemic changes; the whole idea behind insurance is that the past predicts the future and so if you know in the aggregate how many times X event happens per year and what it costs, you can insure for it and make a profit. That breaks down when systemic changes mean that the past no longer predicts the future, but rate of change is much harder to account for. A guy I work with described it as "the failure of reality to conform to actuarial principles", which might be the funniest thing an actuary has ever said.

That riskfactor website is interesting. I wouldn't make any decisions based solely on it, but it's definitely more in line with proprietary industry models than government maps. One thing I will say, though, is that if you have information that your risk is higher than average, and your insurance company doesn't have that information, that's a pretty good time to buy insurance.

I’m confused - I thought citizens didn’t even sell flood policies.   They are starting to require some policies to have flood coverage per the requirement of the state legislature, but it affects homes in flood zones anyhow, which arguably should have purchased flood coverage already one would think.   Maybe your friends are confused or conflating issues?   =/

That said, insurance prices here ARE nuts.   Our costs have more than doubled over the past two years and we are with Citizens, and we were recently offered a buyout from citizens that would have more than tripled our costs.  I hate citizens as much as everyone, but they can’t reasonably expect me to opt into paying nearly $12K per year on a $250K  insured value policy.  That’s insane.

You are correct that Citizens doesn't sell flood coverage. You are also correct that insurance prices in Florida are insane. I understand the impulse to blame Citizens, but they're a symptom, not a cause. Citizens isn't an insurance company, really, they're a government service trying to act like an insurance company for the benefit of Floridians. The problem is, they're not even close to covering their long-term costs and people are already mad about how high the premiums are.

Premiums of 5% of your property values roughly equate to a prediction that your house will be a total loss in about 30 years (factoring in Citizens expenses). That's a conservative estimate for a LOT of Florida, and I'm constantly baffled by how much conversation goes on, even here, about 3 ft of fill dirt or 5 ft of stilts. Check out a projection of sea levels over the next 100 years (NOAA is here https://coast.noaa.gov/slr/, but any of them will work.) Think about how many trillions of dollars of real estate are covered in the blue even as short as 20 years out, and then think about how all of the stuff not in blue is now that much more coastal than it is now, and factor in the impact of increased convective storm activity.

Florida insurance prices will only go up. My guess is, the state is underfunded by about 50%.

Just Joe

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2023, 08:45:49 PM »
Concerns about increasing insurance are just another reason we will most likely sell out southern CA  rental property in the new year.  Fire, not flood, but the outcomes are similar--increasing insurance and danger. 

We visited the Florida Keys a while back. It was amazing to consider how every property we saw was at serious risk. Flooding is pretty much inevitable. And yet, there were very expensive homes there.

Most houses in the Keys are built on stilts though, right?  I have several family members in the Keys.  In fact, one of them is in a construction adjacent business that relates entirely to building on stilts.  I know one family converted a space underneath the stilts into a finished bedroom and have stated that it isn't covered by the flood insurance or considered in the actual sqft. because, as I understand it, you technically aren't allowed to build finishes spaces at ground level.  Other than the finished space, it is outdoor patio and garage on that level.

I don't know exactly. Some properties were clearly on stilts. Some were not. Somer of the fancy houses seemed to have finished first levels like you mentioned. Maybe that is sacrificial space?

Another thing we noticed were a number of abandoned and half-sunken sailboats and cabin cruisers. Our Key friend told us that they were left over from the last hurricane years ago?

Siebrie

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2023, 01:11:19 AM »
Water is very unpredictable. Anecdote: the Groninger Museum in Groningen, The Netherlands was built in the main canal, opposite the main station. The Architect took the highest measurements of the water levels for the last 300 years, and put the windows 10 cm above that. The museum got flooded in its first year of opening!

(Second anecdote, just in case you internetsearch the building: in its opening year it was voted 3rd place in 'worst new building' AND in 'best new building'.)

Gremlin

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2023, 02:13:47 AM »
One thing with the “finished” under level is that in a flood scenario plasterboard walls on the lower level can provide a mechanism for osmosis to occur, causing water to rise up to the upper level and cause damage there as well.

bill1827

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2023, 02:35:00 AM »
ITYM capillary action and I think the maximum height that capillary action can rise in building materials is about 1M, so pretty unlikely to reach a higher story unless the lower floor is flooded to its ceiling.

Just Joe

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2023, 02:35:15 PM »
https://www.google.com/maps/@24.7705158,-80.9152279,3a,75y,292.62h,80.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5yU5ARYn4dMBtydTA0UDxQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@24.7685852,-80.9153904,3a,75y,208.8h,82.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szvKzd6TKRfyDp1bjNCP4wQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Example of an area that we drove through. If their garage is like most people's its very full of stuff that would be ruined.

I'll happily visit again but don't want to own property there.


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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2023, 03:06:33 PM »
https://www.google.com/maps/@24.7705158,-80.9152279,3a,75y,292.62h,80.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5yU5ARYn4dMBtydTA0UDxQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@24.7685852,-80.9153904,3a,75y,208.8h,82.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szvKzd6TKRfyDp1bjNCP4wQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Example of an area that we drove through. If their garage is like most people's its very full of stuff that would be ruined.

I'll happily visit again but don't want to own property there.
The most expensive thing most people own is their car, and that's going to be the first thing flooded.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2023, 11:14:15 AM »
My friends that got 1 feet of river water in their house got 18 inches of river water in their garage because the garage is about 6 inches lower in elevation compared to the house. My friends had two vehicles parked in the garage.

One vehicle was a total loss and covered by insurance. The other vehicle was not damaged at all because it is lifted higher.

https://www.google.com/maps/@24.7705158,-80.9152279,3a,75y,292.62h,80.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5yU5ARYn4dMBtydTA0UDxQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@24.7685852,-80.9153904,3a,75y,208.8h,82.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szvKzd6TKRfyDp1bjNCP4wQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Example of an area that we drove through. If their garage is like most people's its very full of stuff that would be ruined.

I'll happily visit again but don't want to own property there.
The most expensive thing most people own is their car, and that's going to be the first thing flooded.

LD_TAndK

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2023, 06:52:16 AM »
My friends that got 1 feet of river water in their house got 18 inches of river water in their garage because the garage is about 6 inches lower in elevation compared to the house. My friends had two vehicles parked in the garage.

One vehicle was a total loss and covered by insurance. The other vehicle was not damaged at all because it is lifted higher.

[snipped]

I guess we have to stop making fun of all those lifted trucks turns out they're the mustachian choice. Pop quiz, which of these two trucks in the attached photo is the better choice? Baby truck or lifted truck?

scottish

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2023, 07:58:35 AM »
My friends that got 1 feet of river water in their house got 18 inches of river water in their garage because the garage is about 6 inches lower in elevation compared to the house. My friends had two vehicles parked in the garage.

One vehicle was a total loss and covered by insurance. The other vehicle was not damaged at all because it is lifted higher.

[snipped]

I guess we have to stop making fun of all those lifted trucks turns out they're the mustachian choice. Pop quiz, which of these two trucks in the attached photo is the better choice? Baby truck or lifted truck?

How about a lifted baby truck?

jinga nation

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2023, 09:21:47 AM »
My friends that got 1 feet of river water in their house got 18 inches of river water in their garage because the garage is about 6 inches lower in elevation compared to the house. My friends had two vehicles parked in the garage.

One vehicle was a total loss and covered by insurance. The other vehicle was not damaged at all because it is lifted higher.

[snipped]

I guess we have to stop making fun of all those lifted trucks turns out they're the mustachian choice. Pop quiz, which of these two trucks in the attached photo is the better choice? Baby truck or lifted truck?

How about a lifted baby truck?

I doubt that huge new-ish Chevy Silverado will last as long as that old Toyota Tacoma.

I've seen lifted old Tacomas, Rangers, Dakotas. A decent lift looks good, but there's crazy lifts that make the vehicle seem unstable.

Just Joe

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2023, 04:51:14 PM »
Friend bought a lifted Ranger back in the 80s. Picked me up and said - let's go offroading!

We lasted 15 minutes in the woods before it almost rolled over. Fun was over. Back home we went.

Friend kept it for a while but I don't think it ever went back off road. Also the MPG on that small truck was about the same as a huge truck (low teens).

jinga nation

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2023, 08:34:08 AM »
FYSA: Citizens Property Insurance is under federal investigation

Quote

TAMPA, Florida — On Thursday, the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee launched an investigation into Citizens Property Insurance — Florida's insurer of last resort.

Citizens' market share in Florida has more than doubled since 2020 and is only expected to continue growing as private insurers in the state continue to go insolvent or exit Florida altogether. Because of this, the committee says it's concerned that if Citizens is unable to cover its losses, it might ask the federal government for a bailout.

“The Committee is … increasingly concerned about Florida’s uniquely large and growing exposure to climate-related property losses, Citizens’ rapidly expanding market share, and state law allowing Citizens to levy special assessments on all policyholders in the event that losses exceed its ability to pay," Chairman Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) said in a letter from the Senate Budget Committee.

According to Whitehouse, a bailout request would put the government and American taxpayers at "substantial risk."

The letter also mentions that Gov. Ron DeSantis himself acknowledged that Citizens would likely be unable to pay out claims if Florida were hit by a large hurricane.

Under the investigation, the committee is asking Citizens for documents that detail the insurer's plan to address increased underwriting losses from extreme weather events like droughts, heatwaves and sea level rise. It has also requested information related to:

    Citizens' current assets
    The maximum total claims Citizens would be able to pay without having to levy an assessment on Florida policyholders
    Any communications Citizens may have had with DeSantis about its future solvency
    If Citizens has considered asking for a federal bailout

According to the Senate committee, this investigation comes amid a larger probe into the insurance industry's response to climate change and potential economy-wide harms from widespread uninsurability.

The committee has requested that Citizens provide the documents by Dec. 21, 2023.

merula

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2023, 11:56:07 AM »
FYSA: Citizens Property Insurance is under federal investigation

Nice to see the feds agree with me, but I don't see this ending well. It'll be anti-capitalist government overreach right up until the big one hits.

You are correct that Citizens doesn't sell flood coverage. You are also correct that insurance prices in Florida are insane. I understand the impulse to blame Citizens, but they're a symptom, not a cause. Citizens isn't an insurance company, really, they're a government service trying to act like an insurance company for the benefit of Floridians. The problem is, they're not even close to covering their long-term costs and people are already mad about how high the premiums are.

jinga nation

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2023, 01:11:29 PM »
FYSA: Citizens Property Insurance is under federal investigation

Nice to see the feds agree with me, but I don't see this ending well. It'll be anti-capitalist government overreach right up until the big one hits.

You are correct that Citizens doesn't sell flood coverage. You are also correct that insurance prices in Florida are insane. I understand the impulse to blame Citizens, but they're a symptom, not a cause. Citizens isn't an insurance company, really, they're a government service trying to act like an insurance company for the benefit of Floridians. The problem is, they're not even close to covering their long-term costs and people are already mad about how high the premiums are.

Something thumbthing "privatize the profits, socialize the losses". 'Murica!

ChpBstrd

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2023, 12:04:53 PM »
FYSA: Citizens Property Insurance is under federal investigation

Nice to see the feds agree with me, but I don't see this ending well. It'll be anti-capitalist government overreach right up until the big one hits.

You are correct that Citizens doesn't sell flood coverage. You are also correct that insurance prices in Florida are insane. I understand the impulse to blame Citizens, but they're a symptom, not a cause. Citizens isn't an insurance company, really, they're a government service trying to act like an insurance company for the benefit of Floridians. The problem is, they're not even close to covering their long-term costs and people are already mad about how high the premiums are.
Something thumbthing "privatize the profits, socialize the losses". 'Murica!
Meanwhile DeSantis rants about the evils of Socialism.

jinga nation

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2023, 04:58:35 PM »
FYSA: Citizens Property Insurance is under federal investigation

Nice to see the feds agree with me, but I don't see this ending well. It'll be anti-capitalist government overreach right up until the big one hits.

You are correct that Citizens doesn't sell flood coverage. You are also correct that insurance prices in Florida are insane. I understand the impulse to blame Citizens, but they're a symptom, not a cause. Citizens isn't an insurance company, really, they're a government service trying to act like an insurance company for the benefit of Floridians. The problem is, they're not even close to covering their long-term costs and people are already mad about how high the premiums are.
Something thumbthing "privatize the profits, socialize the losses". 'Murica!
Meanwhile DeSantis rants about the evils of Socialism.

Meanwhile DeSantis wants to use taxpayer funds to sue because FSU got the playoffs snub. (That's a separate fuckup.)
Fix. The. Insurance. Problem. Dumbass. Ronald.
(Can't call him Ron because have to use proper pronouns around these parts. Also, have to call his wife Jill, not Casey.)

clarkfan1979

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2023, 06:10:33 AM »
FYSA: Citizens Property Insurance is under federal investigation

Nice to see the feds agree with me, but I don't see this ending well. It'll be anti-capitalist government overreach right up until the big one hits.

You are correct that Citizens doesn't sell flood coverage. You are also correct that insurance prices in Florida are insane. I understand the impulse to blame Citizens, but they're a symptom, not a cause. Citizens isn't an insurance company, really, they're a government service trying to act like an insurance company for the benefit of Floridians. The problem is, they're not even close to covering their long-term costs and people are already mad about how high the premiums are.
Something thumbthing "privatize the profits, socialize the losses". 'Murica!
Meanwhile DeSantis rants about the evils of Socialism.

Meanwhile DeSantis wants to use taxpayer funds to sue because FSU got the playoffs snub. (That's a separate fuckup.)
Fix. The. Insurance. Problem. Dumbass. Ronald.
(Can't call him Ron because have to use proper pronouns around these parts. Also, have to call his wife Jill, not Casey.)

In Florida, people care more about college football than affordable housing. He is representing the interests of the citizens.

I previously taught at Florida Gulf Coast University (2011-2015) as full-time faculty. During this time they had about $20 million in donations earmarked to create a new Division 2 college football team. However, the total price tag was about $300 million, not including a stadium.

During this same time, FGCU asked faculty to give up their office phone to save money and the library was closed on Saturdays due to lack of funds. Our employer retirement contributions were reduced from 10.4% to 5% and my base salary increased by about 6.5%. As a result, my total compensation increase by 1.1% after 4 years of service, so I left.

They don't have enough money to fund office phones, keep the library open on Saturdays or retain faculty. However, they do have $20 million dollars sitting on the "sidelines" for a football team that doesn't exist.     

GilesMM

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2023, 06:48:42 AM »

In Florida, people care more about college football than affordable housing. He is representing the interests of the citizens.

I previously taught at Florida Gulf Coast University (2011-2015) as full-time faculty. During this time they had about $20 million in donations earmarked to create a new Division 2 college football team. However, the total price tag was about $300 million, not including a stadium.

During this same time, FGCU asked faculty to give up their office phone to save money and the library was closed on Saturdays due to lack of funds. Our employer retirement contributions were reduced from 10.4% to 5% and my base salary increased by about 6.5%. As a result, my total compensation increase by 1.1% after 4 years of service, so I left.

They don't have enough money to fund office phones, keep the library open on Saturdays or retain faculty. However, they do have $20 million dollars sitting on the "sidelines" for a football team that doesn't exist.     

It's not just Florida - people all over the world are more interested in sports than education.   Huge budgets for college football in the US are common.  And they can eventually work into net revenue for the college if they get into Division 1 and manage their finance wells.   On top of that, alumni donations are strongly tied to football performance. A team winning a  championship will draw orders of magnitude more alumni interest and donations than a faculty member winning a Nobel prize. 

MayDay

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2023, 04:30:13 PM »
Concerns about increasing insurance are just another reason we will most likely sell out southern CA  rental property in the new year.  Fire, not flood, but the outcomes are similar--increasing insurance and danger. 

We visited the Florida Keys a while back. It was amazing to consider how every property we saw was at serious risk. Flooding is pretty much inevitable. And yet, there were very expensive homes there.

Most houses in the Keys are built on stilts though, right?  I have several family members in the Keys.  In fact, one of them is in a construction adjacent business that relates entirely to building on stilts.  I know one family converted a space underneath the stilts into a finished bedroom and have stated that it isn't covered by the flood insurance or considered in the actual sqft. because, as I understand it, you technically aren't allowed to build finishes spaces at ground level.  Other than the finished space, it is outdoor patio and garage on that level.

I don't know exactly. Some properties were clearly on stilts. Some were not. Somer of the fancy houses seemed to have finished first levels like you mentioned. Maybe that is sacrificial space?

Another thing we noticed were a number of abandoned and half-sunken sailboats and cabin cruisers. Our Key friend told us that they were left over from the last hurricane years ago?

There used to be shacks built around the stilts under housing in the keys. This was the low income housing. Now many/most of them got washed away in hurricanes and that has exacerbated an already existing labor problem on the keys.

Just Joe

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2024, 07:55:53 AM »
Interesting. The economics of the place seemed challenging for modest income full timers.

Loved the trip. Florida without beach front high rises. Really liked that. Want to find other places in the southeast like that.   

By the River

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2024, 08:09:54 AM »
Interesting. The economics of the place seemed challenging for modest income full timers.

Loved the trip. Florida without beach front high rises. Really liked that. Want to find other places in the southeast like that.   

My favorite is Grayton Beach on 30A.  It's only houses and wide open beaches but within a few miles of the overwhelming Seaside Beach (Seaside has 4 rows of beach chairs and umbrellas; expensive shops, etc).  Its been a few years since I've been there though. 

Just Joe

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2024, 12:37:38 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll look it up. Always eager to try a new destination.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2024, 01:15:46 PM »
Interesting. The economics of the place seemed challenging for modest income full timers.

Loved the trip. Florida without beach front high rises. Really liked that. Want to find other places in the southeast like that.   

My favorite is Grayton Beach on 30A.  It's only houses and wide open beaches but within a few miles of the overwhelming Seaside Beach (Seaside has 4 rows of beach chairs and umbrellas; expensive shops, etc).  Its been a few years since I've been there though.
The trick is to go to a beach that's a state or city park. Then rent your lodgings far inland where the costs aren't so high.

GilesMM

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2024, 09:10:00 PM »
I thought of you all today when chatting with a new acquaintance.  He has a $2 million house near Sarasota and his annual insurance premium.... are you sitting down?  $57,000.

Just Joe

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2024, 11:40:17 AM »
Interesting. The economics of the place seemed challenging for modest income full timers.

Loved the trip. Florida without beach front high rises. Really liked that. Want to find other places in the southeast like that.   

My favorite is Grayton Beach on 30A.  It's only houses and wide open beaches but within a few miles of the overwhelming Seaside Beach (Seaside has 4 rows of beach chairs and umbrellas; expensive shops, etc).  Its been a few years since I've been there though.
The trick is to go to a beach that's a state or city park. Then rent your lodgings far inland where the costs aren't so high.

That's similar to what we have traditionally done. The price advantage can be huge. I don't mind walking/biking/driving to the beach. We have also picked zip codes near or between the touristy areas.

For example quiet Perdido Key vs busier Destin, FL or Orange Beach or Gulf Shores. There is certainly an advantage to being able to walk to tourist chaos. We've done that too but most vacations we just want a little bit of the chaos of touristy places. Otherwise give us some place quiet. A few hours of the crowds vs the whole time.

Askel

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2024, 06:18:10 AM »
I thought of you all today when chatting with a new acquaintance.  He has a $2 million house near Sarasota and his annual insurance premium.... are you sitting down?  $57,000.

I was already woozy from the "paid $2 million to live in florida" part.  Anything after that is just "well, florida man. amiright?"  :D   

Reynold

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #43 on: January 30, 2024, 03:30:53 PM »
We have friends who moved to FL a few years ago when they retired, and live on a barrier island about 2 blocks from the beach.  Small house, but great location.  They said their insurance is divided into multiple parts, there is what I would think of as traditional homeowners insurance (fire, liability, etc.) which is close to what we pay in NJ, and they have that.  There is also separate insurance for wind damage, rain damage (?), and flood damage.  The flood insurance is about $15k a year for a house they paid about $250k for, though it is probably worth double that now.  So they aren't paying for the flood insurance. 

If their house is wiped out, they will sell the lot and move somewhere else cheaper.  Not a plan I would go for, personally. 

They also told me about some friends who had to engage in a lengthy lawsuit, like years, with their insurance company when their FL house got flooded and the insurance offered a settlement of what their deductible was, instead of the several hundred thousand dollars it would actually cost to repair their house.  I also heard about after one of the big hurricanes there a major insurance company went to the regulators and said "either you let us settle for 50 cents on the dollar, or we declare bankruptcy in our Florida business entity and nobody gets anything".  I have not personally verified this, as we aren't moving there, but it did seem worrisome. 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2024, 07:54:13 AM »
I used to fantasize about moving to Florida post-retirement, particularly the St. Augustine area in the north since I love the history (edited to add-- not the antebellum nonsense so much as the pre-Columbian) and the architecture. I was working in the area for a couple years so I got to see the place year-round and make friends with a bunch of locals. Unfortunately the place has changed a lot since then. As I spent more time there I gradually came to realize that there were some non-obvious risks and expenses. It's not just the hurricanes, although their impact has become far more severe because of the over-development of swampland that used to serve as a protective barrier.

The more serious changes have been political. Because of what I am and how my family is, I am not welcome there anymore except possibly as a tourist and (let's face it) maybe not even that. It's their state, and I don't need any police or mob related trouble. The political climate they have really does reflect the will and values of the majority of the people. My most recent visit there, where I treated my parents to an otherwise cool vacation, is going to have to be my last.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2024, 11:05:14 AM by TheGrimSqueaker »

GilesMM

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2024, 08:04:16 AM »
I'm amazed at how wide the variation can be in insurance premiums. We just got three new property quotes that ranged over a factor of four (!) from lowest (State Farm) to highest (Chubb).  Not Florida, either, typical PNW suburb without any usual risks.

Sibley

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2024, 08:29:36 AM »
The more serious changes have been political. Because of what I am and how my family is, I am not welcome there anymore except possibly as a tourist and (let's face it) maybe not even that. It's their state, and I don't need any police or mob related trouble. The political climate they have really does reflect the will and values of the majority of the people. My most recent visit there, where I treated my parents to an otherwise cool vacation, is going to have to be my last.

I'm also concerned about the political environment and the resulting consequences. I have family there, I'd like to visit and see them, and while I am part of a demographic which will not have acute problems for a visit, I also don't particularly want to reward those who are behaving in such a way. Its difficult.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2024, 01:22:31 PM »
I'm amazed at how wide the variation can be in insurance premiums. We just got three new property quotes that ranged over a factor of four (!) from lowest (State Farm) to highest (Chubb).  Not Florida, either, typical PNW suburb without any usual risks.

We just shopped our homeowners after it went up ~100% over the past six years.  State Farm was by far our best quote, cutting our premium by 40% for the same coverage.

Dicey

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2024, 11:10:33 AM »
I'm amazed at how wide the variation can be in insurance premiums. We just got three new property quotes that ranged over a factor of four (!) from lowest (State Farm) to highest (Chubb).  Not Florida, either, typical PNW suburb without any usual risks.

We just shopped our homeowners after it went up ~100% over the past six years.  State Farm was by far our best quote, cutting our premium by 40% for the same coverage.
Hahaha. Our carrier has announced its leaving the state. Alas, so have many others, or they've stopped writing new policies. We have four houses and two old cars. The only thing "safe" is our RV, which is with a specially insurer. Maybe we'll have to sell it all and move into our van, except not down by the river...

Villanelle

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Re: Flood Insurance in Florida: A cautionary tale
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2024, 01:19:58 PM »
I'm amazed at how wide the variation can be in insurance premiums. We just got three new property quotes that ranged over a factor of four (!) from lowest (State Farm) to highest (Chubb).  Not Florida, either, typical PNW suburb without any usual risks.

We just shopped our homeowners after it went up ~100% over the past six years.  State Farm was by far our best quote, cutting our premium by 40% for the same coverage.
Hahaha. Our carrier has announced its leaving the state. Alas, so have many others, or they've stopped writing new policies. We have four houses and two old cars. The only thing "safe" is our RV, which is with a specially insurer. Maybe we'll have to sell it all and move into our van, except not down by the river...

Right.  Because then it might flood.