Eyelash Extensions - wtf?

[pudding]

Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

[KBecks]

I'm glad that your friend attended the event with no issues.

That of course doesn't mean that catcalling doesn't happen.  I believe there is a video somewhere of catcalling in NYC and it was ridiculous. Some of this may be regional. I live in the upper midwest and not in a big city and I'm not in environments much where that would happen.  Also, I'm not that hot, but I was once tall, thin and 17 with good hair.

But I have stories to tell too.  I don't remember being catcalled, but I do remember being a teenage girl and going to the mall by myself, leaving my mom's car door unlocked, and coming back to the car to find porn magazines spread out on the seats. 

I picked up the magazines, put them on the ground next to the car and drove away.

I never told my parents -- what and get criticized for leaving the door unlocked?

This did not phase me much as a kid. I thought it was very stupid and weird.  I mean, don't these people want to keep their magazines? Why leave them in my car?  Why would anyone want to go in my car (or really, my mom's car?)

Now as an adult I'm a little more squicked out by it.

Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

[OtherJen]

Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

Yeah, now it really is veering into the "I don't see it so it can't possibly exist" territory. I'm glad that your roommate had fun and didn't experience a hostile and potentially dangerous situation. Good for her. If only all women's experiences were always like that. Many of us are telling you that they are not. Yet, you keep arguing that you haven't seen it and your roommate didn't experience it, so you can't figure out where any of these men are (i.e., implying that they don't exist).

I mean, I've never been to Vancouver. People tell me that they live there or have visited, but I haven't seen it myself and none of my immediate family has been there. Yet, I don't doubt other people's lived experiences there. I don't know what I would get out of such a ridiculous argument or from denying the lived experiences of millions.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're joking, right? Trolling us?

[Villanelle]

Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're right.  It doesn't happen.  It's a feminist-created fiction.

Or maybe it only happens to ugly girls. Or to women who don't dress cutely enough.  Or to those irresponsible enough to walk in bad parts of town.

Great.  Now that we've determined that, the rest of us can stop reading about your doubts about our reality.  You really, really need to just stop.  "Your truth" has nothing to do with actual reality, as experienced by hundreds of thousands of women.

[Raenia]

Yeah, this is the other reason I don't share these stories.  Seriously, if you can't validate other people lived experiences and try to learn something, then just keep it to yourself.  Seriously considering deleting my previous post - if it's not going to help you learn something, then why expose myself like that?

[ysette9]

Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're right.  It doesn't happen.  It's a feminist-created fiction.

Or maybe it only happens to ugly girls. Or to women who don't dress cutely enough.  Or to those irresponsible enough to walk in bad parts of town.

Great.  Now that we've determined that, the rest of us can stop reading about your doubts about our reality.  You really, really need to just stop.  "Your truth" has nothing to do with actual reality, as experienced by hundreds of thousands of women.

Millions of women, you mean.

The thing about #metoo is that it was freaking everyone in my newsfeed, and my social circle is mostly privileged, middle-class people.

[gaja]

Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981

[ysette9]

Good idea!

[OtherJen]

Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981

That is so cool! Those costumes are gorgeous.

[Metalcat]

Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981

Okay...
Super random, but yes, I am actually Nordic...
But yeah, where I live, Nordic national costumes would not be appropriate for galas.

[pudding]

Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

Yeah, now it really is veering into the "I don't see it so it can't possibly exist" territory. I'm glad that your roommate had fun and didn't experience a hostile and potentially dangerous situation. Good for her. If only all women's experiences were always like that. Many of us are telling you that they are not. Yet, you keep arguing that you haven't seen it and your roommate didn't experience it, so you can't figure out where any of these men are (i.e., implying that they don't exist).

I mean, I've never been to Vancouver. People tell me that they live there or have visited, but I haven't seen it myself and none of my immediate family has been there. Yet, I don't doubt other people's lived experiences there. I don't know what I would get out of such a ridiculous argument or from denying the lived experiences of millions.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're joking, right? Trolling us?

No I'm not trolling, nor am I singling out anyone on here and saying that I don't believe them.


However I am saying that, if I haven't seen it in the city I live, and I can't find it even when actively looking for it like I did again today when I was downtown on a very busy summers day. Then yes!  I question to what degree it exists here where I live. To say that makes me somehow a sexist is logic that I can't fathom. Why? Why does it make me sexist? Why am I wrong to wonder how come? How come I don't see this rampant and constant harassment? Even to young women in cosplay costumes.

Of course I know it happens at times, sometimes it's blatant in your face and the perpetrator could do with a swift kick to the head. Of course it happens. Weird stuff happens and happens to all people. I'm just wondering to what degree.

I once had someone ask me for a business card (I have a small renovation business)   the women that asked for it strangely said she was 'getting me for her sister for her birthday'.

A few days later the sister called me to go to her house to do some work. While there she was asked me if she could take pictures of me working?  I said OK, thinking this is awkward.

Coincidentally I had a friend who worked for her, it turned out that the women put the pictures of me working up on her office wall. Seemed rather strange to me. Reversed the genders and it would have been called what? If the customer was a man taking pictures of the female cleaner bending over and then pinned them up on his office wall.

Another time a gay guy asked me to drill holes in a wall so he could 'peep' through at people in a jacuzzi.

Another time an employee of mine asked for time off so she could do her side gig which she told me was making pornographic movies... she'd take a camera out and lay next to the highway where truckers could see her and the guy 'actor' and film.

It was for a site called 'f**** for cash'   She later confided in me that she'd been in jail and used to give the male guard bj's for cigarettes, then when the deal went sour she sued him for sexual assault.

A few weeks before that she'd given me some 'pictures' of a 'ahem' photo shoot that she'd done. I never asked for them and found it quite disturbing, and I threw them in the garbage can.

Another story she told me was that her and a friend wanted to go on a vacation. So her friend called up a guy she'd been sleeping with, made up a story that he had got her pregnant and that he had to pay for her to travel to her hometown to get an abortion. Which he paid up the cash for, and that they used for a vacation instead as she wasn't pregnant.

Another time a women at an obviously brothel like 'massage parlour' wanted me to do work for.... exchange of services ... wink wink
Another time one nipped my azz when I was stood on a chair. Another comes to mind of a petite female customer and a disagreement about payment for painting her house. With no provocation from me she punched me in the chest. I told her if she did it again I'd call the cops.

One which I'll never forget is that there used to be a very, very legitimate foot massage place on Burrard Street (I won't name it)  I once went there for a very legitimate underwear and towel around waist massage.

The masseuse shoved her hand under the towel and my underwear and grabbed me!  It was never asked for, never implied that I was there for that or looking for that, for all she knew my wife could have been waiting in the car outside.

I can only talk of my own experiences in life.

[shuffler]

<list of non-sequiturs tangentially related to sex>

Hey man, remember when I helped you figure out that all the wemens weren't actually coming for your gold?

When you walked around town on that sunny summer day yesterday, did you see any common-law wives stealing half their innocent man's life savings?
No?
Did your cosplay friend unjustly enrich herself via common-law gold-digging?
No?

Hmm.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you so readily believed that the law would allow women to steal half your money, and why you're now so reticent to believe women who tell you that they experience cat-calling?

Maybe your intuition isn't so great when it comes to women's motivations and experiences.  Maybe you should listen to them.

[KBecks]

I don't doubt that weird come-ons happen to men too.  I don't think anyone was saying that men are exempt from harassment. It was strange that when that 10 hours of walking in NYC video came out, there were all these copycats. Wikipedia also said that the woman in the video received death threats.  Why would she receive death threats?  But with the copy cat videos -- was it just to make the woman's experience seem less meaningful?  Are we saying that any of this is OK?

[Raenia]

@pudding, please delete the part of your post above where you quoted my experience.  I no longer want it on the forum and will be deleting my post.

@Kris and @OtherJen, would you please do the same?

[partgypsy]

Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

But yeah growing up it was just prevalent, part of the social fabric. The worse ones were the propositions that were associated with jobs or money or housing. My sister in law when she was just out of high school worked at a restaurant where the son of the owner was a total dirtbag. He made a number of comments to my former sil, and told her to stay after work to meet his friends "neil and bob". I would listen to the gossip and avoid places that had that reputation, but still for example my sister and i's landlord offered to give us reduced rent to be in a porno film. My sister moved to an apartment. She got a weird feeling because it seemed like her stuff was being gone through. And then the male landlord started letting himself into the apartment while she was there, including one time when she was in bed, she felt unsafe and moved out. The most common was a quid pro quo of working as a waitress or in a bar, but you would only get hired if, you know. It sucked. I was able to avoid that stuff but I did have some friends who got in bad situations simply because they needed a job.

[pachnik]

Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

I was thinking this too.  a general decrease of it in society.   But I definitely did experience it as a young and early middle-age woman.   

[pachnik]

And the Nordic costumes are gorgeous!   A good friend's mom came to Canada from Norway in her mid-teens years.  When she first arrived she wore her long blonde hair in a crown of braids on top of her head.  Perhaps this was a traditional hair style?  I saw the old black and white photo and she was so beautiful. 

[KBecks]

Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

But yeah growing up it was just prevalent, part of the social fabric. The worse ones were the propositions that were associated with jobs or money or housing. My sister in law when she was just out of high school worked at a restaurant where the son of the owner was a total dirtbag. He made a number of comments to my former sil, and told her to stay after work to meet his friends "bob and neil". I would listen to the gossip and avoid places that had that reputation, but still for example my sister and i's landlord offered to give us reduced rent to be in a porno film. My sister moved to an apartment. She got a weird feeling because it seemed like her stuff was being gone through. And then the male landlord started letting himself into the apartment while she was there, including one time when she was in bed, she felt unsafe and moved out. The most common was a quid pro quo of working as a waitress or in a bar, but you would only get hired if, you know. It sucked. I was able to avoid that stuff but I did have some friends who got in bad situations simply because they needed a job.

That's all horrible.

[partgypsy]

And the Nordic costumes are gorgeous!   A good friend's mom came to Canada from Norway in her mid-teens years.  When she first arrived she wore her long blonde hair in a crown of braids on top of her head.  Perhaps this was a traditional hair style?  I saw the old black and white photo and she was so beautiful.

Yes! I noticed that there were different styles when clicking on the website. I wonder if the different styles are from different regions or have different meanings...

I do like the idea of "affordable" glamour for MMM. Basically really nice products not a big price. For me growing up that was using noxema for my face. Now I love my cetaphil spf 15 face lotion and use it every day. In the summer I love the avenno spf lotion that is zinc versus chemical-based for my face (I'd have to look up the name). Another thing I like, is getting a tiny tub of cocoa butter vaseline. I use it on my lips and it lasts a long time.

[MrDelane]

I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, or whether it's helpful to add or not... but I simply wanted to say in a general sense that the #metoo movement opened my eyes quite a bit and made me think about my own behavior, and the behavior of those around me, much more.

I am a different man today than I was in the past, and it is due to the many women who have been brave enough to speak openly and publicly about things that are embarrassing, uncomfortable and often painful.

I only add this because I want the women in this thread to know that you're not simply yelling into a void.  Many men are hearing what you're saying.  You may not always know it, and you may not hear them acknowledge it (often times because we aren't certain what to say)... but it is making a difference (at least in some of us).

[gaja]

Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981

Okay...
Super random, but yes, I am actually Nordic...
But yeah, where I live, Nordic national costumes would not be appropriate for galas.

Cool - do you know which area(s)?

If the queen can use hers for galas in the US, so can you. But if it is not your cup of tea, or you like getting glamourous gala dresses every so often - you go girl! I just love the ease of never having to wonder about what to wear.

And the Nordic costumes are gorgeous!   A good friend's mom came to Canada from Norway in her mid-teens years.  When she first arrived she wore her long blonde hair in a crown of braids on top of her head.  Perhaps this was a traditional hair style?  I saw the old black and white photo and she was so beautiful.

Yes! I noticed that there were different styles when clicking on the website. I wonder if the different styles are from different regions or have different meanings...

I do like the idea of "affordable" glamour for MMM. Basically really nice products not a big price. For me growing up that was using noxema for my face. Now I love my cetaphil spf 15 face lotion and use it every day. In the summer I love the avenno spf lotion that is zinc versus chemical-based for my face (I'd have to look up the name). Another thing I like, is getting a tiny tub of cocoa butter vaseline. I use it on my lips and it lasts a long time.

Different regions. Getting a costume from a region you have no ties to is a big faux pas. I would really like DH to get one, but considering this is his local alternative, it will probably not happen:

[Candace]

I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, or whether it's helpful to add or not... but I simply wanted to say in a general sense that the #metoo movement opened my eyes quite a bit and made me think about my own behavior, and the behavior of those around me, much more.

I am a different man today than I was in the past, and it is due to the many women who have been brave enough to speak openly and publicly about things that are embarrassing, uncomfortable and often painful.

I only add this because I want the women in this thread to know that you're not simply yelling into a void.  Many men are hearing what you're saying.  You may not always know it, and you may not hear them acknowledge it (often times because we aren't certain what to say)... but it is making a difference (at least in some of us).

@MrDelane:

Thank you. This means a lot.

[pachnik]

I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, or whether it's helpful to add or not... but I simply wanted to say in a general sense that the #metoo movement opened my eyes quite a bit and made me think about my own behavior, and the behavior of those around me, much more.

I am a different man today than I was in the past, and it is due to the many women who have been brave enough to speak openly and publicly about things that are embarrassing, uncomfortable and often painful.

I only add this because I want the women in this thread to know that you're not simply yelling into a void.  Many men are hearing what you're saying.  You may not always know it, and you may not hear them acknowledge it (often times because we aren't certain what to say)... but it is making a difference (at least in some of us).

@MrDelane:

Thank you. This means a lot.

Yes, thanks very much.   

[Kris]

Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because you’re right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

[partgypsy]

Mr. Delane, thank you. It's something I'd prefer not dwelling on too much. Two of the worst stories I personally know of (a friend being sexually assaulted as a teen by an adult, mother told her to never tell anyone, and a friend's teen daughter being raped by a family member), neither neither shared the story during me too. Some things still too painful to be shared publically.   

Gaja that is really interesting. I guess it would be like a Scottish man wearing a kilt from another Crest/family. I actually like the younger man nordic outfit (could do without the hat!)

[Metalcat]

Okay...
Super random, but yes, I am actually Nordic...
But yeah, where I live, Nordic national costumes would not be appropriate for galas.

Cool - do you know which area(s)?

If the queen can use hers for galas in the US, so can you. But if it is not your cup of tea, or you like getting glamourous gala dresses every so often - you go girl! I just love the ease of never having to wonder about what to wear.
[/quote]

I should restate that: formal cultural clothing would be totally acceptable at the galas I attend if worn by people from that culture. It could be seen as odd for a born and raised Canadian to wear the cultural dress of their parents' origin country to a formal event, although, that would depend on the culture and how connected they are to that cultural community.

I don't even speak Danish, so I would definitely get some side eye for showing up in traditional clothing.

So I'll stick with my sequins, they're shiny :)

[Just gonna totally side step the whole "does street harrassment actually even exist?" convo because...well...gross...]

[pudding]

Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

I was thinking this too.  a general decrease of it in society.   But I definitely did experience it as a young and early middle-age woman.   

I would agree on that too. As someone who is almost 60 and lived in Vancouver BC on and off for 40 years.  I do remember that catcalling was something I saw here often in the 80's.

I can't find it nowadays in Vancouver even if someone paid me cash to find it. I really can't, I've looked, I've listened and I can't find any, though of course I'm sure it still happens to some degree. My girlfriends haven't told me of any incidents, neither my daughter or close female friends either, and I can't see any with my eyes or hear it with my ears.
My conclusion is that in Vancouver BC in this time, it's really not that bad. And perhaps there's some jumping on the 'internet bandwagon' happens from time to time.

* actually now I rack my brains about this, I can remember an incident when an old girlfriend went on a greyhound bus trip and a guy took his penis out and flashed her.

[pudding]

Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because you’re right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.

[Kris]

Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because you’re right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.

Pudding, my opinion on things I have very little lived experience with is not as valid as the opinion of someone who does. My opinion on whether racism is an every day occurrence for black people is not the equivalent of someone who has gone through life as a black person. Opinions are like assholes. But some opinions are more informed than others.

The one thing I have not seen you say in all of your denial is this: that you have asked the women in your life about this. Go ask ten women you know whether street harassment and unwanted sexual comments are a thing. Ask younger ones, middle aged, older ones. Ask them to think about it and their experiences. And don’t just ask them and get a five second answer from them. Because frankly, it happens so often for so many of us that we push it out of our minds and try not to think about it too much. Ask them to think about it, and then tell you about it.

If you have already done this, it sure doesn’t show in anything you have said here.

[Villanelle]

Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because you’re right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.

So you opinion on something experienced by other people is supposed to be given equal consideration and weight as the opinions of those people?  Especially when it is an "opinion", on whether those things actually happen?  Sorry, but no.  First, whether something happens or not is not an opinion, because it is not a subjective thing.  Second, now being personally witness to something in no way contributes to a conversation in whether it happens, and that's even more true when the "something" is, basically by definition, not something that would happen to the non-witness, or to people in his close company.

"This happens, and it has happened to me", is NOT an opinion.  It is a statement of fact.

About a year ago, Vancouver launched a street harrassment reporting hotline.  Strange in a place with no street harrassment, no?
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/new-street-harassment-reporting-tool-launches-in-vancouver-1.3989883

Shut.  Up. 

[pudding]

Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because you’re right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.

So you opinion on something experienced by other people is supposed to be given equal consideration and weight as the opinions of those people?  Especially when it is an "opinion", on whether those things actually happen?  Sorry, but no.  First, whether something happens or not is not an opinion, because it is not a subjective thing.  Second, now being personally witness to something in no way contributes to a conversation in whether it happens, and that's even more true when the "something" is, basically by definition, not something that would happen to the non-witness, or to people in his close company.

"This happens, and it has happened to me", is NOT an opinion.  It is a statement of fact.

About a year ago, Vancouver launched a street harrassment reporting hotline.  Strange in a place with no street harrassment, no?
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/new-street-harassment-reporting-tool-launches-in-vancouver-1.3989883

Shut.  Up.

Yesterday I was at an event where there were many people interacting, pretty much an equal number of adult men and women.

Everyone looked happy, I didn't see any harassment and from what I could see all was respectful. I walked around the city as I like to do for at least an hour, and again I didn't see one instance of cat calling or harassment, and it's summer time, fashions have become 'different' one thing that's in fashion now is to wear cut off jeans shorts that are cut really short and as my massage therapist friend noted "they reveal the gluteal fold" I would think making them prime targets for the hords of evil cat calling males waiting in the shadows. Maybe the sun kept them home, maybe it was the city of Vancouver's programme to reduce cat calling that made them think twice, who knows. 

I ended up having an interesting conversation with a women who I'd met briefly a few weeks ago. She told me about a guy she'd been dating and how he could only 'perform' once a day yet was only in his early 40's and younger than her and she wondered if stress was behind it, and asked me if I have a stressful life. I thought it was a lot of information to hear from someone I'd only known for about 15 minutes. But it was fun and light hearted so I went along with it.

She went on to tell me that she finds Vancouver 'weird' and conversations with her girlfriends are often about how men here won't approach them. She then asked me if I (as a man I guess) had an explanation as to why that is.

I told her I don't know, and that many men I know say the same thing, that Vancouver is a 'weird' place. It is a weird place, you can stand on the street corner and smoke crack, sit on the floor in the middle of the daytime on a main street in the centre of the city and shoot up heroin and no one will stop you or call the cops, camp under a tarp in the middle of the sidewalk and sell stolen stuff.   Yet you go to the beach and your not allowed to drink a beer or smoke a cigarette and it's rigorously enforced, and it closes at 10pm.

[partgypsy]

Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism. 

[Davnasty]

Everyone looked happy, I didn't see any harassment and from what I could see all was respectful. I walked around the city as I like to do for at least an hour, and again I didn't see one instance of cat calling or harassment

It seems the main point you've been trying to address here is the extent to which public harassment occurs. I actually think that's a reasonable question to consider when we don't have hard data (that I know of) to answer that question. It's perfectly normal for someone who has experienced more harassment than what is typical to think it's more common than it really is and for someone who has experienced less to underestimate it's prevalence. This makes it likely that within certain subgroups or regions we have skewed perceptions of reality.

But I would recommend leaving out examples like the one I quoted above. This is just asinine and makes it tough to take you seriously.

[MrDelane]

I'm not sure why I'm feeding into this (and I apologize if I'm simply prolonging the discussion here).  But for the sake of anyone who is reading along, here is some actual data collected in Vancouver:

Highlights:  in a 2 month period (62 days) there were 115 reports of harassment received through the pilot program.  Of those, 92% were of a 'sexual, sexist or cat-calling' nature.

On top of that it's important to keep in mind 2 things:
1. Only a fraction of the people in the city were aware of the reporting tool used to gather the data.
2. Sexual harassment is one of the most underreported crimes.

With those things in mind, this short term pilot study still received 1.85+ reports a day - and it is obviously safe to assume the real number is much higher.

Here is another site with a map showing reported harassment in public spaces:
https://vancouver.ihollaback.org/

So yes, it does occur in Vancouver (as it does everywhere) - regardless of whether or not any specific individual has personally experienced or witnessed it.
This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact. It is always important to remember that the plural of anecdote is not data.


EDITED TO ADD:
A few comments from women who live in Vancouver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ORjsJ_2anc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDiiq3sYTXg

[honeybbq]

Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

[zolotiyeruki]

It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

[Villanelle]

It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have. 

[TheGrimSqueaker]

Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

[pudding]

Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

[Villanelle]

Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

Are you fucking serious?  Female street harassment (WHICH YOUR CITY HAD AN ACTUAL PROGRAM TO TRACK AND ADDRESS, a fact that has repeatedly been posted and which you continue to ignore) is like unicorns?  Do you not see how fucked up that is?  If you told someone you were mugged and they said they'd never been mugged, and none of their friends, even those with very fat wallets, had ever mentioned being mugged, so mugging was clearly like asking them to believe in leprechauns, would you not see some serious insult and condescension in that? 

No wonder your daughter wouldn't share these stories with you, if she has them.  You'd just tell her that being harassed on the street is like claiming to see bigfoot.  You are calling our reported experiences--experiences heavily documented in myriad ways (and again, YOUR CITY even created a program to address these things that supposedly never happen) fiction.  Like crazy, made up creatures. 

I am utterly astounded.  And for the other men reading, if you ever doubted that when women share stories of what happens to them, they often face absolutely vile treatment, to the point that they are basically called liars (our stories, remember, are like asking someone to believe in mythical creatures!), read this, and use it to help you be a better ally.  Because with gems like Pudding in the world, we NEED allies. 

It's absolutely disgusting.

[pudding]

Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

Are you fucking serious?  Female street harassment (WHICH YOUR CITY HAD AN ACTUAL PROGRAM TO TRACK AND ADDRESS, a fact that has repeatedly been posted and which you continue to ignore) is like unicorns?  Do you not see how fucked up that is?  If you told someone you were mugged and they said they'd never been mugged, and none of their friends, even those with very fat wallets, had ever mentioned being mugged, so mugging was clearly like asking them to believe in leprechauns, would you not see some serious insult and condescension in that? 

No wonder your daughter wouldn't share these stories with you, if she has them.  You'd just tell her that being harassed on the street is like claiming to see bigfoot.  You are calling our reported experiences--experiences heavily documented in myriad ways (and again, YOUR CITY even created a program to address these things that supposedly never happen) fiction.  Like crazy, made up creatures. 

I am utterly astounded.  And for the other men reading, if you ever doubted that when women share stories of what happens to them, they often face absolutely vile treatment, to the point that they are basically called liars (our stories, remember, are like asking someone to believe in mythical creatures!), read this, and use it to help you be a better ally.  Because with gems like Pudding in the world, we NEED allies. 

It's absolutely disgusting.

It it because I've got a ... ya know, small thingy or something like that?

MOD EDIT: I don't see anyone referencing your genitalia. Please try to remain respectful and genuine in your discussions. Cheers!

[partgypsy]

Vinallelle, If I had a nickel for every guy I saw on public media who was bothered by, or questioned people's me too stories, maybe I would no longer need to be on MMM.
Short answer. I don't care what Pudding thinks or believes.  It doesn't actually change the facts. He's with the people who believe the moon landing was faked, or that vaccinations are harmful or even that the holocaust was greatly exaggerated. He's entitled to his beliefs no matter how offensive or misguided they are, unless his beliefs directly harm me.    I'm 50 years old. I've been around guys like Pudding enough in my lifetime, I seriously don't gaf what they think.

For everyone else, an awful lot of unicorns and bigfoots in Vancouver it seems. 

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/sexual-assault-only-violent-crime-still-rising-in-vancouver-stats-say

[ysette9]

I have been following this thread with increasing astonishment. I just can’t understand someone’s inability to consider someone else’s views, incorporate the input of thousand or even millions of other people into one’s own world view, and the shocking dismissal of a myriad of evidence because it doesn’t align with one’s personal experience as someone who will never personally experience the topic at hand.

At lunch today my coworker (minority) shared her experience of a flight attendant asking she prove her citizenship on a flight back to the US while handing out immigration forms. My role as a white person was to listen and empathize (while I can’t personally understand), and show my support at the unfairness of her experience.
I would never presume to tell her that what she experienced didn’t happen or wasn’t legit or was like Bigfoot because I had never seen that happen to anyone else while I was flying back to the states.

[Villanelle]

Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

Are you fucking serious?  Female street harassment (WHICH YOUR CITY HAD AN ACTUAL PROGRAM TO TRACK AND ADDRESS, a fact that has repeatedly been posted and which you continue to ignore) is like unicorns?  Do you not see how fucked up that is?  If you told someone you were mugged and they said they'd never been mugged, and none of their friends, even those with very fat wallets, had ever mentioned being mugged, so mugging was clearly like asking them to believe in leprechauns, would you not see some serious insult and condescension in that? 

No wonder your daughter wouldn't share these stories with you, if she has them.  You'd just tell her that being harassed on the street is like claiming to see bigfoot.  You are calling our reported experiences--experiences heavily documented in myriad ways (and again, YOUR CITY even created a program to address these things that supposedly never happen) fiction.  Like crazy, made up creatures. 

I am utterly astounded.  And for the other men reading, if you ever doubted that when women share stories of what happens to them, they often face absolutely vile treatment, to the point that they are basically called liars (our stories, remember, are like asking someone to believe in mythical creatures!), read this, and use it to help you be a better ally.  Because with gems like Pudding in the world, we NEED allies. 

It's absolutely disgusting.

It it because I've got a ... ya know, small thingy or something like that?

By "thingy", if you mean "heart" or "brain", then perhaps, yes. 

[joleran]

Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling, most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

[MrDelane]

Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling

Nope.  What would make you think you saw everything that occurred? From the video:

.... most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

It's not up to anyone to make the call between what is or is not innocuous or between 'unwanted attention' and harassment, unless they are the subject.

If/when someone says they feel harassed we should believe them.  Period.


EDITED TO ADD:
For perspective, another thing to keep in mind is that, in regard to the opposite sex, it is often said that men's biggest fear is that a woman will laugh at them.  Women's biggest fear is that a man will kill them.

Try to view the 'innocuous/unwanted attention' through that lens.

[Fru-Gal]

Down the rabbit hole we go... someone argues she has "large assets on display" and I click the vid to find a normal looking woman with my body type wearing a black crewneck T-shirt that fits her, black jeans and sneakers -- exactly how I dress comfortably to walk through NYC. Lord. I have been doing so well on my news fast. Please Lord help me to find peace amid the trolls.

If you read the wonderful "Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books" by Iranian author and professor Azar Nafisi, you'll understand that policing women's bodies never ends. As extremism descends on Tehran, she describes how girls -- completely covered head to toe per the new religious rules -- were *still* castigated for things like visible wrists (deemed too tempting for men) or eating apples provocatively.

[Kris]

Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling, most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

Other men:

This, right here, is why women get so fucking angry.

[Davnasty]

Down the rabbit hole we go... someone argues she has "large assets on display" and I click the vid to find a normal looking woman with my body type wearing a black crewneck T-shirt that fits her, black jeans and sneakers -- exactly how I dress comfortably to walk through NYC. Lord. I have been doing so well on my news fast. Please Lord help me to find peace amid the trolls.

If you read the wonderful "Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books" by Iranian author and professor Azar Nafisi, you'll understand that policing women's bodies never ends. As extremism descends on Tehran, she describes how girls -- completely covered head to toe per the new religious rules -- were *still* castigated for things like visible wrists (deemed too tempting for men) or eating apples provocatively.

Wow. Ya, after reading that comment I was actually thinking "it's true, we don't want to be so sensitive that we can't talk to strangers." But then I watched the video and none of those interactions were ok. This is the verbal equivalent of grabbing someone as they walk by.

[partgypsy]

I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassment can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, it's not. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.