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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Free Spirit on July 11, 2019, 08:50:19 AM

Title: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Free Spirit on July 11, 2019, 08:50:19 AM
Seriously, why? Years ago these were a relatively niche beauty treatment and you very rarely saw them in real life. I can now count 7 (SEVEN) of my immediate coworkers who have these eyelashes! I don't understand this trend. You pay 200+ for the initial application and then you have to go back every 3 weeks and pay another $75+ for a refill. Oops, you waited a whole month? Full price again! What the hell? I've looked at the pricing for this treatment in my area and one specialty application is $450! This is for something that doesn't even last a whole month! On top of that, it takes like 2 freakin' hours to get them done, and you have to go way out of your way to maintain them. I just read  this (https://www.glamour.com/story/the-dos-and-donts-of-eyelash-e) article and I'm horrified. Relearn to wash my face? Uhh, no. Stay away from oil? Does nobody else have oily eyelids? How do these even last a full 3 weeks? I thought fake nails were ridiculous but this takes the cake. WTF are we doing to ourselves?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Just Joe on July 11, 2019, 08:54:10 AM
Regularly applying glue to skin next to one's eyes seems like a great idea.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 11, 2019, 12:39:25 PM
There's such a thing as an eyelash perm. My daughter paid through the nose to have one done, and her eyelashes burned and mostly fell off. They refused to give her a refund and offered her a free second service once the eyelashes grew back in. In a moment of glorious independent thought, she asked them why in the world she should let them anywhere near her eyes with perm chemicals again. She wised up after that, at least with regard to fake eyelashes.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: SunnyDays on July 11, 2019, 01:52:18 PM
Yeah, but think of the time you save not having to put mascara on every day!  And then take it off too!  (Sarcasm, if you couldn't tell.)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 11, 2019, 02:08:20 PM
This is an example of something I would never, ever do, even if I had all the money in the world and couldnít hope to spend it all. I canít imagine taking time out of my day EVERY FREAKING THREE WEEKS to sit in a chair for two hours barely moving, making intermittent small talk with a stranger. Good lord, if there is a hell, certainly this will be one of the levels.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: six-car-habit on July 11, 2019, 03:23:45 PM
 Once upon a time, a girl and i were sitting in the backseat of my friends car talking [ with other people up front] - she said she had something caught in her eyelashes, and could i take a closer look at what it might be ?
  When i did - she pulled me in for a kiss ! !

  I suppose even Longer eyelashes could get More things stuck in them...leading to more such scenarios ?

  Then again we were young , her eyelashes were natural, so no $$ was expended on this ruse...
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Just Joe on July 12, 2019, 01:48:28 PM
I don't think my vision is good enough to tell a difference... (eyelashes = wasted effort)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pachnik on July 12, 2019, 02:56:52 PM
I see a fair amount of pretty unsubtle sets of fake eyelashes.   They look just too fake for me.  Not that I'd be interested.  Just wouldn't want someone fooling around with glue or perm solution near my eyes. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: dmmms on July 12, 2019, 03:05:32 PM
I'm convinced we're living in the capital (Hunger Games reference) these days!
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Khaetra on July 13, 2019, 09:05:45 AM
Yeah, no thanks.  It's one of those things I just don't get, why would you want someone near your eyes with glue or whatever they use to put them on?  I'll just keep my sparse lashes sparse :).
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on July 14, 2019, 04:54:02 AM
Yeah, no thanks.  It's one of those things I just don't get, why would you want someone near your eyes with glue or whatever they use to put them on?  I'll just keep my sparse lashes sparse :).

Seriously, that is what mascara is for if I want a bit more eyelash visibility - not glue near my eyes.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 14, 2019, 06:26:33 AM
Yep, I used to do this.
As a recovered glamazon, I used to do A LOT of stupid, expensive shit for the sake of over the top vanity, and this was before Instagram was even a thing.

It's crazy expensive, it takes fucking forever every few weeks, and for a side sleeper like me, they always wore off asymmetrically.

It was ridiculous, it really was.
I had them for nearly a year before I got too fed up with lying there with my eyes closed for 2 hours at a time while someone gently poked me in the eyes over and over.

I didn't stop doing it because I had common sense, I stopped doing it because I get extremely restless if I do nothing for too long. I dreaded my appointments, so eventually I stopped booking them.

It's crazy what feels "worth it" when you are sucked into the world of vanity-for-a-price. Ugh, this shit used to feel so goddamn important at the time.

That said, I would go back to stupid expensive eyelash extensions any day over going back to wearing high heels every time I left the house. I'm a dedicated running shoes + orthotics kind of gal now, and on the rare occasions that I wear stilletos, I marvel at the grotesque pain I was willing to put myself through.

I marvel at how the hell I ever got that way in the first place.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 14, 2019, 07:00:47 AM
Yep, I used to do this.
As a recovered glamazon, I used to do A LOT of stupid, expensive shit for the sake of over the top vanity, and this was before Instagram was even a thing.

It's crazy expensive, it takes fucking forever every few weeks, and for a side sleeper like me, they always wore off asymmetrically.

It was ridiculous, it really was.
I had them for nearly a year before I got too fed up with lying there with my eyes closed for 2 hours at a time while someone gently poked me in the eyes over and over.

I didn't stop doing it because I had common sense, I stopped doing it because I get extremely restless if I do nothing for too long. I dreaded my appointments, so eventually I stopped booking them.

It's crazy what feels "worth it" when you are sucked into the world of vanity-for-a-price. Ugh, this shit used to feel so goddamn important at the time.

That said, I would go back to stupid expensive eyelash extensions any day over going back to wearing high heels every time I left the house. I'm a dedicated running shoes + orthotics kind of gal now, and on the rare occasions that I wear stilletos, I marvel at the grotesque pain I was willing to put myself through.

I marvel at how the hell I ever got that way in the first place.

It fascinates me that you used to do this stuff, @Malkynn . It doesnít seem like you at all!

What happened to make you fall off the glamazon wagon in general?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Off the Wheel on July 14, 2019, 08:46:27 AM
I work in fashion (it's a low key, athletics-oriented brand BUT STILL) and oh my LORD the things people spend money on. As an older and wiser department head, I TRY to talk to them about investments and FIRE or even just the concept of 'saving  for the future' but instead the eyelashes get push on, the nails get done, and the $50 SoulCycle classes get taken. I also just had the horrible discovery that apparently Botox is covered by our extended benefits (under 'naturopath').

I cringe for the days when they realize they can't fight aging no matter how much they spend.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 14, 2019, 06:28:41 PM
It fascinates me that you used to do this stuff, @Malkynn . It doesnít seem like you at all!

What happened to make you fall off the glamazon wagon in general?

Oh, I still rock the shit out of a ball gown and 5 inch heels at least a half dozen times a year, but 99% of the time I'm in all black athletic gear.

What changed? It took getting a doctorate to finally feel like I had some value to society beyond my appearance.
It's sad, but it's how I felt.

Oh...and I have a very very beautiful mother that I tried to live up to.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 14, 2019, 06:33:09 PM
It fascinates me that you used to do this stuff, @Malkynn . It doesnít seem like you at all!

What happened to make you fall off the glamazon wagon in general?

Oh, I still rock the shit out of a ball gown and 5 inch heels at least a half dozen times a year, but 99% of the time I'm in all black athletic gear.

What changed? It took getting a doctorate to finally feel like I had some value to society beyond my appearance.
It's sad, but it's how I felt.

Oh...and I have a very very beautiful mother that I tried to live up to.

Oh, yeah. That all makes sense.

My mom was prettier than me, too. But thankfully, she put a premium on intelligence, so being ďthe smart oneĒ was an identity I could slip into and disdain people who were preoccupied with their appearances.

Itís so sad and awful, isnít it, what women often have to go through to feel like they have a place in the world?

Virtual hugs to you.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 15, 2019, 04:18:55 AM
It fascinates me that you used to do this stuff, @Malkynn . It doesnít seem like you at all!

What happened to make you fall off the glamazon wagon in general?

Oh, I still rock the shit out of a ball gown and 5 inch heels at least a half dozen times a year, but 99% of the time I'm in all black athletic gear.

What changed? It took getting a doctorate to finally feel like I had some value to society beyond my appearance.
It's sad, but it's how I felt.

Oh...and I have a very very beautiful mother that I tried to live up to.

Oh, yeah. That all makes sense.

My mom was prettier than me, too. But thankfully, she put a premium on intelligence, so being ďthe smart oneĒ was an identity I could slip into and disdain people who were preoccupied with their appearances.

Itís so sad and awful, isnít it, what women often have to go through to feel like they have a place in the world?

Virtual hugs to you.

Thankfully my mom also put an enormous value on intelligence and hard work, but I was still deeply affected by how glamourous she was and how people reacted to her.

Plus is was the 80s, hair and makeup was such a huge deal.
It still is, but it's different now.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 15, 2019, 04:28:38 AM
I've always wanted to be a natural beauty, low maintenance, a little lip gloss and mascara and that's it!
The beauty industry is INDUSTRY, big time. Fashion too.
I think the Hollywood pretty machine can make anyone attractive if necessary, but I have no reason to put myself through all that shit. I just know that if I had a makeup artist and stylist and whatever, it works.
But I enjoy my t-shirts and sweats and sensible shoes and natural skin.

I look at eyelash extensions as freaky spiders, and I usually, unfortunately, judge the people who have them as being a little bit stupid, or, suckers.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Hula Hoop on July 15, 2019, 07:38:49 AM
Wow -Malkynn.  I would never have guessed that you're a recoverting glamazon.  I'm kinda the opposite.  I've never curled my hair, very rarely wear heels and only wear makeup to work or fancy parties.  I remember a Southern friend staying with my about 10 years ago who asked to borrow my hair dryer and she was just astounded that I didn't own one.  I do wear dresses and skirts most days during the summer though but for comfort reasons.

Anyway I have a friend who does the eyelash extensions and I didn't have the heart to tell her that she looked the same before and after the application of the extensions.  I had no idea that it took 2 hours and that much money though.  What a waste.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 15, 2019, 08:14:21 AM
Wow -Malkynn.  I would never have guessed that you're a recoverting glamazon. 

Only partially recovered.
I still full on glam-out on a regular basis, I just don't feel like I have to and have very little patience for being uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 15, 2019, 08:35:35 AM
Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos! 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 15, 2019, 09:11:26 AM
Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 15, 2019, 09:26:06 AM
Some of those eyelashes look freaky to me. Also when people have that injected upper lip and plumped up cheekbones, it reminds me of the rocky horror show.
Tattooed eyebrows, implants, hair dye, and now on occasion I see someone with these outrages inflated butt cheeks and hips... wtf is going on? It's like a kind of deceit.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 15, 2019, 09:30:33 AM
Yo, these hips are natural!  LOL.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: cats on July 15, 2019, 10:04:37 AM
I get my hair cut at an Aveda school.  One time I was there and chatting with the student/stylist who was cutting my hair and she was telling me about her plans for post-graduation.  Apparently she had actually already been cutting hair for years and had a pretty good business going out of her garage salon (her husband had installed some amazing sink for hair washing, I recall), but she was back at the Aveda school because she really wanted to do less hair and focus on other beauty treatments.  Specifically, eyelash extensions.  At the time I was somewhat floored.  Now, seeing how much one can pay for these...hmmm.  I think my student/stylist was setting herself up pretty well! 

Overall, I am kind of surprised at how much some women I know will pay for "beauty" type stuff.  In my mind, things like botox, lash tinting, paying for body hair removal in a salon setting, or now that weird "cool sculpting" thing where you supposedly get your fat frozen off are all for people with jobs that require a certain physical appearance (actress, TV presenter, model, etc.), not for "normal" people like myself.  But I know at least one woman who gets botox regularly and many who pay to get various body parts waxed or who have done extensive amounts of laser hair removal.  No idea if anyone I know personally is paying for lash extensions but judging from the number of women I see on transit with insanely long lashes, I would guess the local lash extension industry is booming.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Dicey on July 15, 2019, 10:20:30 AM
I used to work for a cosmetics company and was quite the glamour girl. Fortunately, it was back in the days before all this crazy stuff existed. Silk nails were the thing then, and false eyelashes on strips, but those were only for seriously glamorous events.

I am also an admitted HGTV junkie. (We flip houses, I'm just keeping up with the trends.) This effect is what I seriously dislike about Christina (el Moussa) Anstead. Her makeup looks like she's about to attend a full-on Gala every damn day. I hate the message of perfection at enormous cost, both of time and money. And don't get me started on the hair extensions, you know, besides the eyelash kind, which she also does. Why?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 15, 2019, 10:46:57 AM
Some of those eyelashes look freaky to me. Also when people have that injected upper lip and plumped up cheekbones, it reminds me of the rocky horror show.
Tattooed eyebrows, implants, hair dye, and now on occasion I see someone with these outrages inflated butt cheeks and hips... wtf is going on? It's like a kind of deceit.

Yep.

There are a lot of cases of overdone lashes and injections for sure. However, I guarantee that you see tons of people who have these procedures regularly and you have no idea.

I work with a woman who has had breast implants and liposuction and you would never know it. She's a down to earth sporty woman who doesn't wear makeup and embraces her grey hair.

You really never know unless the person's work is done poorly or intentionally meant to be noticed.

As for lashes, yeah, a lot of them are excessive because women want a lot of "bang for their buck" and really don't want to look natural. They don't look that way because of the product, they look that way because they're trying to.
Fake is an esthetic in and of itself, and it's usually intentional.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 15, 2019, 11:07:55 AM
I get my hair cut at an Aveda school.  One time I was there and chatting with the student/stylist who was cutting my hair and she was telling me about her plans for post-graduation.  Apparently she had actually already been cutting hair for years and had a pretty good business going out of her garage salon (her husband had installed some amazing sink for hair washing, I recall), but she was back at the Aveda school because she really wanted to do less hair and focus on other beauty treatments.  Specifically, eyelash extensions.  At the time I was somewhat floored.  Now, seeing how much one can pay for these...hmmm.  I think my student/stylist was setting herself up pretty well! 

Overall, I am kind of surprised at how much some women I know will pay for "beauty" type stuff.  In my mind, things like botox, lash tinting, paying for body hair removal in a salon setting, or now that weird "cool sculpting" thing where you supposedly get your fat frozen off are all for people with jobs that require a certain physical appearance (actress, TV presenter, model, etc.), not for "normal" people like myself.  But I know at least one woman who gets botox regularly and many who pay to get various body parts waxed or who have done extensive amounts of laser hair removal.  No idea if anyone I know personally is paying for lash extensions but judging from the number of women I see on transit with insanely long lashes, I would guess the local lash extension industry is booming.

Pfft, most women in my world spend more on their hair alone than I do on groceries. It's quite common. Don't even ask how much my friends who get weaves are spending.
Fuuuuuck.

That said, I find the discourse around vanity to always be a little lopsided. People are quite reactive to things they perceive as unusual, but "normal" things like getting highlights in your hair or wearing heels to work are generally ignored, despite the fact that those two things alone arguably make up the MOST expensive and the MOST painful aspects of vanity, when you account for the fact that they're both ongoing...often for decades.

Also, getting painful needles for tattoos is okay now, but getting virtually painless needles for Botox is extreme.

There's no real rhyme or reason as to what is considered "reasonable" vanity and what isn't.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: cats on July 15, 2019, 02:19:39 PM
I get my hair cut at an Aveda school.  One time I was there and chatting with the student/stylist who was cutting my hair and she was telling me about her plans for post-graduation.  Apparently she had actually already been cutting hair for years and had a pretty good business going out of her garage salon (her husband had installed some amazing sink for hair washing, I recall), but she was back at the Aveda school because she really wanted to do less hair and focus on other beauty treatments.  Specifically, eyelash extensions.  At the time I was somewhat floored.  Now, seeing how much one can pay for these...hmmm.  I think my student/stylist was setting herself up pretty well! 

Overall, I am kind of surprised at how much some women I know will pay for "beauty" type stuff.  In my mind, things like botox, lash tinting, paying for body hair removal in a salon setting, or now that weird "cool sculpting" thing where you supposedly get your fat frozen off are all for people with jobs that require a certain physical appearance (actress, TV presenter, model, etc.), not for "normal" people like myself.  But I know at least one woman who gets botox regularly and many who pay to get various body parts waxed or who have done extensive amounts of laser hair removal.  No idea if anyone I know personally is paying for lash extensions but judging from the number of women I see on transit with insanely long lashes, I would guess the local lash extension industry is booming.

Pfft, most women in my world spend more on their hair alone than I do on groceries. It's quite common. Don't even ask how much my friends who get weaves are spending.
Fuuuuuck.

That said, I find the discourse around vanity to always be a little lopsided. People are quite reactive to things they perceive as unusual, but "normal" things like getting highlights in your hair or wearing heels to work are generally ignored, despite the fact that those two things alone arguably make up the MOST expensive and the MOST painful aspects of vanity, when you account for the fact that they're both ongoing...often for decades.

Also, getting painful needles for tattoos is okay now, but getting virtually painless needles for Botox is extreme.

There's no real rhyme or reason as to what is considered "reasonable" vanity and what isn't.

True true.  I guess I also find highlights or professional hair color to be crazy expensive.  I have extremely dark hair and it's always been my understanding that it would be a PITA and expensive to dye it or do any kind of highlights so while I do think those things look nice, I haven't really considered it seriously.  I have dyed my hair a few times at home (all over 10+ years ago now) but now my thoughts on that are basically: I have better or more important things to do with my Saturday morning. Also it is hard to do a good job on home hair dye and I do not have the level of patience it seems to require. As I have gotten older and older I have gotten less and less interested in "beauty" stuff that doesn't also have some sort of non-beauty benefit (i.e. I will put moisturizer with SPF on my face daily because I don't want to get skin cancer).  I do still shave my legs I guess.  And I get my hair cut a few times a year (if not colored).

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 15, 2019, 02:28:12 PM
This was a Thing in the place from which I recently moved.  Someone local did them out of her home, and a surprising number of people did them.  I guess there were options for how thick/intense/dramatic they could be, and nearly everyone went with the most intense, which looked pretty silly when they were out and about grocery shopping, with no other make up.  And the worst was when they'd start to wear off.  It looked like a case of eyelash mange, where most were short and then there would be a few rouge lashes on each eye, or a section that was super full when the rest of the lash was normal.  And people PAID to look like that. 

So in addition to a lot of money for a tiny little thing, I didn't even think they actually looked good. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 15, 2019, 03:13:23 PM
This was a Thing in the place from which I recently moved.  Someone local did them out of her home, and a surprising number of people did them.  I guess there were options for how thick/intense/dramatic they could be, and nearly everyone went with the most intense, which looked pretty silly when they were out and about grocery shopping, with no other make up.  And the worst was when they'd start to wear off.  It looked like a case of eyelash mange, where most were short and then there would be a few rouge lashes on each eye, or a section that was super full when the rest of the lash was normal.  And people PAID to look like that. 

So in addition to a lot of money for a tiny little thing, I didn't even think they actually looked good.

LOL @ eyelash mange.

omg so incredibly accurate
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: John Galt incarnate! on July 15, 2019, 03:30:04 PM
This was a Thing in the place from which I recently moved.  Someone local did them out of her home, and a surprising number of people did them.  I guess there were options for how thick/intense/dramatic they could be, and nearly everyone went with the most intense, which looked pretty silly when they were out and about grocery shopping, with no other make up.  And the worst was when they'd start to wear off.  It looked like a case of eyelash mange, where most were short and then there would be a few rouge lashes on each eye, or a section that was super full when the rest of the lash was normal.  And people PAID to look like that. 

So in addition to a lot of money for a tiny little thing, I didn't even think they actually looked good.

LOL @ eyelash mange.

omg so incredibly accurate

Hey, I just guffawed too.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 15, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
This was a Thing in the place from which I recently moved.  Someone local did them out of her home, and a surprising number of people did them.  I guess there were options for how thick/intense/dramatic they could be, and nearly everyone went with the most intense, which looked pretty silly when they were out and about grocery shopping, with no other make up.  And the worst was when they'd start to wear off.  It looked like a case of eyelash mange, where most were short and then there would be a few rouge lashes on each eye, or a section that was super full when the rest of the lash was normal.  And people PAID to look like that. 

So in addition to a lot of money for a tiny little thing, I didn't even think they actually looked good.

LOL @ eyelash mange.

omg so incredibly accurate

Hey, I just guffawed too.

Yeah, but it comes off a lot less judgemental from a woman who admits that she used to get them herself ;)

I'm laughing because it describes exactly what I used to see in the mirror, on the one stupid eye on the side I slept on. I used to marvel at how dumb it was that I spent so much to only look uneven and, yes, mangy, after only about 10 days.

I'm laughing at myself.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 15, 2019, 05:39:23 PM
I get my hair cut at an Aveda school.  One time I was there and chatting with the student/stylist who was cutting my hair and she was telling me about her plans for post-graduation.  Apparently she had actually already been cutting hair for years and had a pretty good business going out of her garage salon (her husband had installed some amazing sink for hair washing, I recall), but she was back at the Aveda school because she really wanted to do less hair and focus on other beauty treatments.  Specifically, eyelash extensions.  At the time I was somewhat floored.  Now, seeing how much one can pay for these...hmmm.  I think my student/stylist was setting herself up pretty well! 

Overall, I am kind of surprised at how much some women I know will pay for "beauty" type stuff.  In my mind, things like botox, lash tinting, paying for body hair removal in a salon setting, or now that weird "cool sculpting" thing where you supposedly get your fat frozen off are all for people with jobs that require a certain physical appearance (actress, TV presenter, model, etc.), not for "normal" people like myself.  But I know at least one woman who gets botox regularly and many who pay to get various body parts waxed or who have done extensive amounts of laser hair removal.  No idea if anyone I know personally is paying for lash extensions but judging from the number of women I see on transit with insanely long lashes, I would guess the local lash extension industry is booming.

Pfft, most women in my world spend more on their hair alone than I do on groceries. It's quite common. Don't even ask how much my friends who get weaves are spending.
Fuuuuuck.

That said, I find the discourse around vanity to always be a little lopsided. People are quite reactive to things they perceive as unusual, but "normal" things like getting highlights in your hair or wearing heels to work are generally ignored, despite the fact that those two things alone arguably make up the MOST expensive and the MOST painful aspects of vanity, when you account for the fact that they're both ongoing...often for decades.

Also, getting painful needles for tattoos is okay now, but getting virtually painless needles for Botox is extreme.

There's no real rhyme or reason as to what is considered "reasonable" vanity and what isn't.

Agreed. I found a recent thread on this forum regarding botox to be quite blatantly sexist. Including from a few people who seem to like to think of themselves as enlightened feminists. Some male.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Aelias on July 16, 2019, 10:35:13 AM

Agreed. I found a recent thread on this forum regarding botox to be quite blatantly sexist. Including from a few people who seem to like to think of themselves as enlightened feminists. Some male.

I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.

It's a complicated issue, and it's a good example of patriarchy hurts everyone.  People should wear make up if it makes them feel good and is consistent with their other values.  Or not.  Whatever!
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 16, 2019, 11:29:38 AM

Agreed. I found a recent thread on this forum regarding botox to be quite blatantly sexist. Including from a few people who seem to like to think of themselves as enlightened feminists. Some male.

I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.

It's a complicated issue, and it's a good example of patriarchy hurts everyone.  People should wear make up if it makes them feel good and is consistent with their other values.  Or not.  Whatever!

SO much this!  I'm mostly just quoting because I think this is such an important point.

Clearly, I hate the eyelash extensions.  But if someone wants to spend money on those (or on makeup, which I do wear on occasion; or Spanx, or shaving--something else I do semi-regularly, or laser hair removal, or fillers, or fancy skincare, or...), I don't think those decisions deserve any more contempt that maybe a Starbucks coffee.  Certainly, none of them are truly necessary, so I think it's worth discussing that, especially on a site like MMN.  However, these types of expenses seem to be treated like a special category, worthy of extra scorn or pity, even from supposed allies.  "Women look strange and fake when wearing make up" (or with Botox, or whatever) is such a loaded statement.  (And one I've certainly been guilty of--we are all part of the patriarchy, after all, and influenced by it).  I can't say that when I do wear makeup, there isn't at least some part of me that is doing it to look "pretty" in the eyes of others.  But it's also about me.  Maybe I like feeling traditionally "pretty".  Maybe I like the confidence (even though the fact that slathering shit on my face makes me feel more confident is another patriarchal construction.  Maybe I like looking younger.  Or maybe it's like a cool graphic tee, where I'm aware of what it says about me to others, but I am mostly wearing it because I like it, separate from any reaction it may get or impression it may give.  The assumption is that when we make choices to do these things, we are doing it for approval and thus when others reject those things, the are freeing us of some burden, when in fact it may have little to nothing to do with others. 

I hate eyelash extensions. I think they look horrible, but they are no less ridiculous than wearing mascara, which I'm doing right now.  of course, mascara costs a small fraction of the extension and thus in a MMM context is less wasteful, but it's no less an attempt to spend money to articificially change one's appearance, whether that is for the pleasure of others or oneself. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on July 16, 2019, 11:36:49 AM
I hate eyelash extensions. I think they look horrible, but they are no less ridiculous than wearing mascara, which I'm doing right now.  of course, mascara costs a small fraction of the extension and thus in a MMM context is less wasteful, but it's no less an attempt to spend money to articificially change one's appearance, whether that is for the pleasure of others or oneself.

My only regular makeup is mascara, because without it my eyelashes totally disappear. I like to have visible eyelashes. 

Other makeup?  I had to buy lipstick and nail polish for a recent wedding, because, you know, I wanted to feel a bit more dressed up than usual.    ;-)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 16, 2019, 03:35:12 PM

Agreed. I found a recent thread on this forum regarding botox to be quite blatantly sexist. Including from a few people who seem to like to think of themselves as enlightened feminists. Some male.

I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.

It's a complicated issue, and it's a good example of patriarchy hurts everyone.  People should wear make up if it makes them feel good and is consistent with their other values.  Or not.  Whatever!

Yep. Yep yep yep. I've had the same experience.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MayDay on July 17, 2019, 07:21:38 AM
My MIL applies the glue on fake eyelashes every morning. She is blond (now grey) and her eyelashes are practically invisible. I find it bizarre......  Like, first of all, you are blond so of course your eyelashes are too. And second, how about just some mascara?

My grandmother got her eyeliner tattooed on. It seems a bit ridiculous but my entire early childhood she spent forever painstakingly applying eyeliner every morning. That tattoo saved her so much time. And at least it was a one time expense that stayed looking good!
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 17, 2019, 07:30:08 AM
What I've heard is that women dress up and use makeup to impress and/or intimidate other women, moreso or just as much as to impress men.  Many women care about what other women are wearing, pay attention to these details, and make a lot of comparisons.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 17, 2019, 08:39:26 AM
What I've heard is that women dress up and use makeup to impress and/or intimidate other women, moreso or just as much as to impress men.  Many women care about what other women are wearing, pay attention to these details, and make a lot of comparisons.


What about the possibility that women dress up and use make up because they like they way it makes them look?  That is it part of some pissing contest to intimidate other women is an even more insulting premise than that it's just about impressing men.

So, kindly, fuck what you've "heard".  And you clearly missed the point of the last few posts in this thread. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: BlueHouse on July 17, 2019, 09:16:16 AM
My MIL applies the glue on fake eyelashes every morning. She is blond (now grey) and her eyelashes are practically invisible. I find it bizarre......  Like, first of all, you are blond so of course your eyelashes are too. And second, how about just some mascara?

My grandmother got her eyeliner tattooed on. It seems a bit ridiculous but my entire early childhood she spent forever painstakingly applying eyeliner every morning. That tattoo saved her so much time. And at least it was a one time expense that stayed looking good!

I have eyeliner tattoos and I love love love them.  I love that it makes it look like I tried a little, even when I just roll out of bed and head out to the store.  I also love that my eyeliner doesn't smudge under my eyes.   I've had these tattoos for almost 15 years and they still look great -- probably because I ALWAYS wear sunglasses outside. 

I also had Full Lip tattoos but that faded off over about 8-10 years. 

I do like the color that they add to my face.  I look bland and washed out without some color and I've pared my makeup routine down so much that without the lip tattoo, I really just look beige now.   I might get my lips redone. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 17, 2019, 09:39:23 AM
What I've heard is that women dress up and use makeup to impress and/or intimidate other women, moreso or just as much as to impress men.  Many women care about what other women are wearing, pay attention to these details, and make a lot of comparisons.


What about the possibility that women dress up and use make up because they like they way it makes them look?  That is it part of some pissing contest to intimidate other women is an even more insulting premise than that it's just about impressing men.

So, kindly, fuck what you've "heard".  And you clearly missed the point of the last few posts in this thread.

I think there are many motivations for people to dress up and enhance their looks or not.  Let's leave it there, and thanks for your kindness.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on July 18, 2019, 03:28:42 PM
I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.
If I may, as a man, I find it rather...unsettling that a man cannot pay a woman a sincere compliment without her thinking that his motivation has something to with their respective sexes.  If I pay a woman a compliment on her appearance, or her accomplishments, or anything else, I do it as one person to another, not as a man to a woman.

I'm sure many (most? nearly all?) women *have* had experiences which would bias them towards such a supposition, but can we at least give people the benefit of the doubt?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 18, 2019, 03:53:42 PM
I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.
If I may, as a man, I find it rather...unsettling that a man cannot pay a woman a sincere compliment without her thinking that his motivation has something to with their respective sexes.  If I pay a woman a compliment on her appearance, or her accomplishments, or anything else, I do it as one person to another, not as a man to a woman.

I'm sure many (most? nearly all?) women *have* had experiences which would bias them towards such a supposition, but can we at least give people the benefit of the doubt?

Itís not that a man can never pay a compliment to a woman. But can you understand how this isnít really so much a compliment as a ďthis is how I think you look better, and I think itís somehow my place to tell you my preference of your appearance choicesĒ?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: spartana on July 18, 2019, 04:27:42 PM
I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.
If I may, as a man, I find it rather...unsettling that a man cannot pay a woman a sincere compliment without her thinking that his motivation has something to with their respective sexes.  If I pay a woman a compliment on her appearance, or her accomplishments, or anything else, I do it as one person to another, not as a man to a woman.

I'm sure many (most? nearly all?) women *have* had experiences which would bias them towards such a supposition, but can we at least give people the benefit of the doubt?

It’s not that a man can never pay a compliment to a woman. But can you understand how this isn’t really so much a compliment as a “this is how I think you look better, and I think it’s somehow my place to tell you my preference of your appearance choices”?
But don't your women friends compliment you in exactly the same way? "spartana glad to see you removed all that make-up. You look so much better without it." Make that clothes or hair or any other "female-thingy" and women say the same thing to women all.the.time.  Nothing sexist imho.

As for the OP - yeah I think eyelash extensions are crazy. I'm very blonde with blonde fine lashes. I don't wear make up unless I'm going out somewhere special otherwise I basicly look like an alien day to day ;-).
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 18, 2019, 04:42:33 PM
I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.
If I may, as a man, I find it rather...unsettling that a man cannot pay a woman a sincere compliment without her thinking that his motivation has something to with their respective sexes.  If I pay a woman a compliment on her appearance, or her accomplishments, or anything else, I do it as one person to another, not as a man to a woman.

I'm sure many (most? nearly all?) women *have* had experiences which would bias them towards such a supposition, but can we at least give people the benefit of the doubt?

Itís not that a man can never pay a compliment to a woman. But can you understand how this isnít really so much a compliment as a ďthis is how I think you look better, and I think itís somehow my place to tell you my preference of your appearance choicesĒ?
But don't your women friends compliment you in exactly the same way? "spartana glad to see you removed all that make-up. You look so much better without it." Make that clothes or hair or any other "female-thingy" and women say the same thing to women all.the.time.  Nothing sexist imho.

As for the OP - yeah I think eyelash extensions are crazy. I'm very blonde with blonde fine lashes. I don't wear make up unless I'm going out somewhere special otherwise I basicly look like an alien day to day ;-).

No. They donít. Maybe my friends are all nicer than that. A compliment is saying something nice, not saying the way you used to do something was not as good. The only people I have had say stuff like that are people who seem to be trying to subtly cut down my confidence pr who seem to think they are supposed to have a say in my fashion choices. Male or female, not cool.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: spartana on July 18, 2019, 05:09:05 PM
I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.
If I may, as a man, I find it rather...unsettling that a man cannot pay a woman a sincere compliment without her thinking that his motivation has something to with their respective sexes.  If I pay a woman a compliment on her appearance, or her accomplishments, or anything else, I do it as one person to another, not as a man to a woman.

I'm sure many (most? nearly all?) women *have* had experiences which would bias them towards such a supposition, but can we at least give people the benefit of the doubt?

Itís not that a man can never pay a compliment to a woman. But can you understand how this isnít really so much a compliment as a ďthis is how I think you look better, and I think itís somehow my place to tell you my preference of your appearance choicesĒ?
But don't your women friends compliment you in exactly the same way? "spartana glad to see you removed all that make-up. You look so much better without it." Make that clothes or hair or any other "female-thingy" and women say the same thing to women all.the.time.  Nothing sexist imho.

As for the OP - yeah I think eyelash extensions are crazy. I'm very blonde with blonde fine lashes. I don't wear make up unless I'm going out somewhere special otherwise I basicly look like an alien day to day ;-).

No. They donít. Maybe my friends are all nicer than that. A compliment is saying something nice, not saying the way you used to do something was not as good. The only people I have had say stuff like that are people who seem to be trying to subtly cut down my confidence pr who seem to think they are supposed to have a say in my fashion choices. Male or female, not cool.
Different strokes I guess as I see it more that they are trying to build me up rather then cut me down. Saying I don't need to do "all that stuff" to look good as I'm perfect just the natural way I am.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 18, 2019, 07:37:18 PM
I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.
If I may, as a man, I find it rather...unsettling that a man cannot pay a woman a sincere compliment without her thinking that his motivation has something to with their respective sexes.  If I pay a woman a compliment on her appearance, or her accomplishments, or anything else, I do it as one person to another, not as a man to a woman.

I'm sure many (most? nearly all?) women *have* had experiences which would bias them towards such a supposition, but can we at least give people the benefit of the doubt?

Itís not that a man can never pay a compliment to a woman. But can you understand how this isnít really so much a compliment as a ďthis is how I think you look better, and I think itís somehow my place to tell you my preference of your appearance choicesĒ?
But don't your women friends compliment you in exactly the same way? "spartana glad to see you removed all that make-up. You look so much better without it." Make that clothes or hair or any other "female-thingy" and women say the same thing to women all.the.time.  Nothing sexist imho.

As for the OP - yeah I think eyelash extensions are crazy. I'm very blonde with blonde fine lashes. I don't wear make up unless I'm going out somewhere special otherwise I basicly look like an alien day to day ;-).
I've found it really hard to have conversations about feminine beauty standards with people who aren't women.  I've been stepping away from beauty products and procedures for several years now, mostly because of the inherent waste and consumerism involved.  But I have admit it rubs me the wrong way when he says something like, "I'm glad you don't wear make up anymore.  I think you look better this way."  He is definitely trying to pay me a sincere compliment, and I take it as such, but part of me thinks, "Dude, it was never about you!"

There's an underlying assumption that women make the aesthetic choices they do primarily to gain the approval of men.  The flip side being if men say "I think women look better when they avoid these procedures" women should all breathe a big sigh of relief because now they don't have to do it anymore.  Which is, of course, sexist and heteronormative BS.  But, at the same time, it's important to remember though that many make those statements in an attempt to be kind and supportive and don't necessarily realize that they're premised on the assumption that women were looking for their approval.
If I may, as a man, I find it rather...unsettling that a man cannot pay a woman a sincere compliment without her thinking that his motivation has something to with their respective sexes.  If I pay a woman a compliment on her appearance, or her accomplishments, or anything else, I do it as one person to another, not as a man to a woman.

I'm sure many (most? nearly all?) women *have* had experiences which would bias them towards such a supposition, but can we at least give people the benefit of the doubt?

No, that is not how my friends, male or female, compliment me.  And I'd find it rather abrasive if they did.  "Villanelle, you look lovely today."  Or perhaps "You look amazing without make up" [with no mention of comparisons to other looks, and therefore no veiled insults].

Telling someone they look better is also telling them they looked worse.  If the goal is a compliment, it seems one would want to avoid that.  "You don't look bad anymore", is not a compliment, even if it's polished up a bit. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: LilyFleur on July 18, 2019, 07:59:30 PM
My MIL applies the glue on fake eyelashes every morning. She is blond (now grey) and her eyelashes are practically invisible. I find it bizarre......  Like, first of all, you are blond so of course your eyelashes are too. And second, how about just some mascara?

My grandmother got her eyeliner tattooed on. It seems a bit ridiculous but my entire early childhood she spent forever painstakingly applying eyeliner every morning. That tattoo saved her so much time. And at least it was a one time expense that stayed looking good!
I gyrate between "I am blonde and pale and why should I have to wear makeup; I am what I am" and "I really do look better with some makeup on." I think the time spent applying makeup is one of the single most boring activities ever invented. And makeup makes me feel slightly claustrophobic.
I did, however, have electrolysis done and never have to spend time shaving my legs or my underarms. I think that was a good investment.
I think lash extensions make women look like cows. I would never.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on July 19, 2019, 08:39:15 AM
No. They donít. Maybe my friends are all nicer than that. A compliment is saying something nice, not saying the way you used to do something was not as good. The only people I have had say stuff like that are people who seem to be trying to subtly cut down my confidence pr who seem to think they are supposed to have a say in my fashion choices. Male or female, not cool.
Ah, thanks for clarifying!  The issue seems to be tied to the word "than."  That said, I think you may be missing a key part of the sentiment that comes with the "prettier without makeup"-type comment.  Specifically, I believe the intended thought is "You are beautiful the way you are, and you don't *need* makeup/eyelash extensions/heels/<insert consumeristic product> to look beautiful."  The phrasing and word choice may be awkward, abrasive, triggering, or offensive, but I think it's a mistake to interpret it any other way than the way it's intended.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 19, 2019, 10:24:45 AM
No. They donít. Maybe my friends are all nicer than that. A compliment is saying something nice, not saying the way you used to do something was not as good. The only people I have had say stuff like that are people who seem to be trying to subtly cut down my confidence pr who seem to think they are supposed to have a say in my fashion choices. Male or female, not cool.
Ah, thanks for clarifying!  The issue seems to be tied to the word "than."  That said, I think you may be missing a key part of the sentiment that comes with the "prettier without makeup"-type comment.  Specifically, I believe the intended thought is "You are beautiful the way you are, and you don't *need* makeup/eyelash extensions/heels/<insert consumeristic product> to look beautiful."  The phrasing and word choice may be awkward, abrasive, triggering, or offensive, but I think it's a mistake to interpret it any other way than the way it's intended.

Yes. I get that people intend it as a compliment.

Then again, I would think that someone who intends to compliment someone else would want to know whether that compliment might actually backfire.

For example, "You are so intelligent. You're a credit to your people," is surely intended as a compliment. But a person of color might not take it that way.

And "You are prettier without makeup," I'm sure, is intended to tell someone they are beautiful. But there are definitely better ways to say something like that. Especially if a person has not specifically asked you, "Do you think I look prettier with or without makeup?"

Add in gender dynamics, and the fact that women are constantly being evaluated for their appearance when they are not specifically inviting such an evaluation, and frankly, I think it is a mistake for a person who intends to compliment to not think seriously about whether it might be interpreted differently than intended.


Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: spartana on July 19, 2019, 10:36:26 AM
No. They don’t. Maybe my friends are all nicer than that. A compliment is saying something nice, not saying the way you used to do something was not as good. The only people I have had say stuff like that are people who seem to be trying to subtly cut down my confidence pr who seem to think they are supposed to have a say in my fashion choices. Male or female, not cool.
Ah, thanks for clarifying!  The issue seems to be tied to the word "than."  That said, I think you may be missing a key part of the sentiment that comes with the "prettier without makeup"-type comment.  Specifically, I believe the intended thought is "You are beautiful the way you are, and you don't *need* makeup/eyelash extensions/heels/<insert consumeristic product> to look beautiful."  The phrasing and word choice may be awkward, abrasive, triggering, or offensive, but I think it's a mistake to interpret it any other way than the way it's intended.

Yes. I get that people intend it as a compliment.

Then again, I would think that someone who intends to compliment someone else would want to know whether that compliment might actually backfire.

For example, "You are so intelligent. You're a credit to your people," is surely intended as a compliment. But a person of color might not take it that way.

And "You are prettier without makeup," I'm sure, is intended to tell someone they are beautiful. But there are definitely better ways to say something like that. Especially if a person has not specifically asked you, "Do you think I look prettier with or without makeup?"

Add in gender dynamics, and the fact that women are constantly being evaluated for their appearance when they are not specifically inviting such an evaluation, and frankly, I think it is a mistake for a person who intends to compliment to not think seriously about whether it might be interpreted differently than intended.
But is it even meant as a compliment or just a comment that reflects your personal preferences? Did you ever tell your DH you liked him in the green shirt instead of the blue? Or his hair short instead of long? Or beardless instead of fuzzy-faced? Or just a comment that you liked the way he cooked pancakes on Monday better then on Friday? To me these are everyday random comments that just show an individuals preference. I assume people are grown ass adults and will do what they want even if I may prefer something they did over their own choice. I'm sure there have been people that think I look better in make up or my hair different or my pancakes different. I don't really care what they think as its their problem/issue not mine and doesn't effect me or what I do at all. So I don't take their expressed comments as put downs or compliments - just their personal preferences.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 19, 2019, 10:39:53 AM
No. They donít. Maybe my friends are all nicer than that. A compliment is saying something nice, not saying the way you used to do something was not as good. The only people I have had say stuff like that are people who seem to be trying to subtly cut down my confidence pr who seem to think they are supposed to have a say in my fashion choices. Male or female, not cool.
Ah, thanks for clarifying!  The issue seems to be tied to the word "than."  That said, I think you may be missing a key part of the sentiment that comes with the "prettier without makeup"-type comment.  Specifically, I believe the intended thought is "You are beautiful the way you are, and you don't *need* makeup/eyelash extensions/heels/<insert consumeristic product> to look beautiful."  The phrasing and word choice may be awkward, abrasive, triggering, or offensive, but I think it's a mistake to interpret it any other way than the way it's intended.

Yes. I get that people intend it as a compliment.

Then again, I would think that someone who intends to compliment someone else would want to know whether that compliment might actually backfire.

For example, "You are so intelligent. You're a credit to your people," is surely intended as a compliment. But a person of color might not take it that way.

And "You are prettier without makeup," I'm sure, is intended to tell someone they are beautiful. But there are definitely better ways to say something like that. Especially if a person has not specifically asked you, "Do you think I look prettier with or without makeup?"

Add in gender dynamics, and the fact that women are constantly being evaluated for their appearance when they are not specifically inviting such an evaluation, and frankly, I think it is a mistake for a person who intends to compliment to not think seriously about whether it might be interpreted differently than intended.
But is it even meant as a compliment or just a comment that reflects your personal preferences? Did you ever tell your DH you liked him in the green shirt instead of the blue? Or his hair short instead of long? Or beardless instead of fuzzy-faced? Or just a comment that you liked the way he cooked pancakes on Monday better then on Friday? To me these are everyday random comments that just show an individuals preference. I assume people are grown ass adults and will do what they want even if I may prefer something they did over their own choice. I'm sure there have been people that think I look better in make up or my hair different or my pancakes different. I don't really care what they think as its their problem/issue not mine and doesn't effect me or what I do at all. So I don't take their expressed comments as put downs or compliments - just their personal preferences.

My husband or my best friend is a bit different from a total stranger, or an acquaintance, or a work colleague.

And actually, no. I don't tend to do that unless they ask me. Because honestly, I kind of don't think they need to care about my preferences. They get to dress and groom themselves how they want.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 19, 2019, 01:15:20 PM
I think I do take it as a personal preference.  And the notion that it is appropriate for someone not close to me to offer an unsolicited comment on how he or she prefers me is pretty icky.  We wouldn't generally ask people to be flatter by it  (or to take it politely and graciously) if it was about most things other than beauty.  "I preferred you talking less than you did last week."  "I think you are much more pleasant when you don't talk about that subject."  "You are so much more attractive now that you've lost weight!" "Women are so much more attractive when they don't talk about politics!" "You look so much better now that you had that tattoo removed!" 

But when it comes to fashion and makeup, suddenly these things are not only fair game, but we are supposed to feel complimented and flattered. 

And it definitely depends on who it is coming from.  If my DH says that he thinks I look hot whenI wear dresses, that's very different than if a stranger or a colleague says it. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 19, 2019, 05:45:42 PM
As a medical professional who has spent years getting comments CONSTANTLY from male patients about how they preferred my long blond hair before I cut it all off and dyed it dark, or how after losing 70lbs that I was getting too thin and that I looked better with more curvy...yeah, it's pretty exhausting and infuriating.

I TOTALLY get why a lot of women would cringe at being told that they look better without makeup.

I don't mind if someone close to me says "never wear that eyeshadow again, you look like you have two black eyes", but that's because they're in a social position with me where their opinion is solicited by default.

A patient???
Well, they can fuck right the fuck off with their goddamn preferences. I don't care, I will never care, and I don't want to hear it, even if it's meant as a compliment.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: UnleashHell on July 20, 2019, 05:48:12 AM
@Malkynn

Looking at your picture I'd say your ears seem a bit big.. 😁
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Just Joe on July 21, 2019, 12:06:52 PM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 21, 2019, 02:51:44 PM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men? 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 21, 2019, 03:23:44 PM
Aren't we all kind of in this together though, as a species that's biologically programed to reproduce. 

It's like if one gender does something to become more attractive and therefore more sexually attractive, it's as though there's a common element to it to be congratulated, as in your helping to further the species.

And that seems to be where some of these 'approval' comments might be rooted in appreciation of what we are all in together.

Like, I'm into partner dancing... if I take some dancing lessons and learn to dance better, my dance partner who I often have never met up until we dance often appreciates that I know how to dance as she can now enjoy the dance more.

If the dance partner says I'm a good dancer and she liked that I know how to move my body in a way that helps her express through her dance.. should I be angry?  Upset? 

What seems to happen is people are selectively angry, angry at people they don't find attractive and OK if they find the person attractive. And men are appreciative of what is none of their business?

Also I find in N. America culture that many women in this time through culture will have learned only a couple of ways to interpret such comments, and often if feminism is something that they identify with strongly, the'll go on the attack and shame the person that said it. This seems to me to dumb down the culture here.

Often I hear women in Vancouver say the men here are timid.... I'm like wtf!  I remember when I moved here and within a short time it became obvious how hostile culture here was towards men.

I joke to myself sometimes that given enough time white Canadian women would turn the tango into a dance where people don't even touch each other. There'd be a mandatory 3 inches of space.

Often I can see how the white Canadian guys are a bit odd too.  It's like such a novelty to dance close that they start to behave like horny dogs at times.....  welcome to Canada :)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 21, 2019, 07:46:40 PM
Aren't we all kind of in this together though, as a species that's biologically programed to reproduce. 

It's like if one gender does something to become more attractive and therefore more sexually attractive, it's as though there's a common element to it to be congratulated, as in your helping to further the species.

And that seems to be where some of these 'approval' comments might be rooted in appreciation of what we are all in together.

Like, I'm into partner dancing... if I take some dancing lessons and learn to dance better, my dance partner who I often have never met up until we dance often appreciates that I know how to dance as she can now enjoy the dance more.

If the dance partner says I'm a good dancer and she liked that I know how to move my body in a way that helps her express through her dance.. should I be angry?  Upset? 

What seems to happen is people are selectively angry, angry at people they don't find attractive and OK if they find the person attractive. And men are appreciative of what is none of their business?

Also I find in N. America culture that many women in this time through culture will have learned only a couple of ways to interpret such comments, and often if feminism is something that they identify with strongly, the'll go on the attack and shame the person that said it. This seems to me to dumb down the culture here.

Often I hear women in Vancouver say the men here are timid.... I'm like wtf!  I remember when I moved here and within a short time it became obvious how hostile culture here was towards men.

I joke to myself sometimes that given enough time white Canadian women would turn the tango into a dance where people don't even touch each other. There'd be a mandatory 3 inches of space.

Often I can see how the white Canadian guys are a bit odd too.  It's like such a novelty to dance close that they start to behave like horny dogs at times.....  welcome to Canada :)

Again, "You are pretty!" (or "you are a good dancer") is different than "You look better when you do X."  Or "You don't have to do X to be attractive to men.  I prefer women who do Y!"  No one, as far as I can tell, has said you shouldn't compliment women, even on their looks.  It's when you tell her that men find her attractive even without eyelash extensions, or similar, that's the problem.  Just leave it at the actual compliment, rather than making broad statements about what is and isn't attractive and whether she should care what men find attractive.

If a woman is pretty, most people think it's fine to tell her so.  Just don't make comparisons, even supposedly flattering ones, to when she was less pretty (in your opinion), and don't assume that her choices about how she looks are made because she wants to optimize her attractiveness to men.  That's all.  Making this about supposedly not being allowed to compliment a women is a complete strawman. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 21, 2019, 11:00:35 PM
Aren't we all kind of in this together though, as a species that's biologically programed to reproduce. 

It's like if one gender does something to become more attractive and therefore more sexually attractive, it's as though there's a common element to it to be congratulated, as in your helping to further the species.

And that seems to be where some of these 'approval' comments might be rooted in appreciation of what we are all in together.

Like, I'm into partner dancing... if I take some dancing lessons and learn to dance better, my dance partner who I often have never met up until we dance often appreciates that I know how to dance as she can now enjoy the dance more.

If the dance partner says I'm a good dancer and she liked that I know how to move my body in a way that helps her express through her dance.. should I be angry?  Upset? 

What seems to happen is people are selectively angry, angry at people they don't find attractive and OK if they find the person attractive. And men are appreciative of what is none of their business?

Also I find in N. America culture that many women in this time through culture will have learned only a couple of ways to interpret such comments, and often if feminism is something that they identify with strongly, the'll go on the attack and shame the person that said it. This seems to me to dumb down the culture here.

Often I hear women in Vancouver say the men here are timid.... I'm like wtf!  I remember when I moved here and within a short time it became obvious how hostile culture here was towards men.

I joke to myself sometimes that given enough time white Canadian women would turn the tango into a dance where people don't even touch each other. There'd be a mandatory 3 inches of space.

Often I can see how the white Canadian guys are a bit odd too.  It's like such a novelty to dance close that they start to behave like horny dogs at times.....  welcome to Canada :)

Again, "You are pretty!" (or "you are a good dancer") is different than "You look better when you do X."  Or "You don't have to do X to be attractive to men.  I prefer women who do Y!"  No one, as far as I can tell, has said you shouldn't compliment women, even on their looks.  It's when you tell her that men find her attractive even without eyelash extensions, or similar, that's the problem.  Just leave it at the actual compliment, rather than making broad statements about what is and isn't attractive and whether she should care what men find attractive.

If a woman is pretty, most people think it's fine to tell her so.  Just don't make comparisons, even supposedly flattering ones, to when she was less pretty (in your opinion), and don't assume that her choices about how she looks are made because she wants to optimize her attractiveness to men.  That's all.  Making this about supposedly not being allowed to compliment a women is a complete strawman.


Straw PERSON!  It's 2019        hehe
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Just Joe on July 22, 2019, 09:49:43 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 22, 2019, 11:29:29 AM
I think it is great to do things that are good bang for your buck. For me that was when I was visiting my family my sister picking out a $7 box of hair color and her coloring and cutting my hair. Often when she cuts my hair I get a lot of compliments, more often my general appearance (that I looked good, did I go to the beach, etc??). I think it's because what she does is subtle but knows how to cut my hair so it's flattering to my face.

Keeping fit (I am NOT right now but want to return to) is a good bang for buck because you better fit your clothes, posture, stress relief, circulation etc.

I can even imagine for some- because it is a one time thing- getting electrolysis, eyeliner tattoo, even some forms of plastic surgery, because it is more of a one-time expense that pro-rates itself. Not for me, but individuals vary.

What I don't get is spending money on makeup or treatments that are temporary that have to be paid for over and over again. It would have to be extremely cheap (like my queen helen mint julep face mask) or something like a good spf face sunscreen to feel spending on those things are worth it.

ETA- I also agree, that women's looks are so judged by their appearance, it ALSO rubs me the wrong way when men give the compliment that you look good without makeup. Yes I've never worn makeup and am not going to start now (other than blemish concealer and tinted lip balm).  But where were were you doing all the decades of heavy peer and media pressure to have the perfect hair, skin, makeup, grooming etc all the time? Now it just feels a slightly different perhaps higher bar of yeah, you STILL have to look great, but you are not supposed to look like you are trying hard or using artificial enhancement or if you do, so subtly other people don't realize you are.   
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 23, 2019, 09:29:17 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE


I think I get it. 

It's when the compliment becomes more 'approval from a superior' (superior in their mind at least)  Like it could be followed by a gentle pat on the bum or something if it was 40 years ago.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 23, 2019, 09:40:03 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE

It's likely to be misinterpreted by women as you making a pass, as well.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 23, 2019, 09:44:33 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE

It's likely to be misinterpreted by women as you making a pass, as well.

I see what you did there lol
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 23, 2019, 10:04:03 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE

So if you don't do it to men, why do you do it to women?

I'm actually not against a man giving a woman a compliment on her appearance.  But it seems like you refrain from doing this to men, but then you do it to women and are perplexed when it isn't well received.  So women don't receive your compliments well and you seem confused and you complain about it, but with men you just accept that they wouldn't receive it well and stop doing it, presumably without angst or complaint.  Put another way, men won't accept your compliments and that seems fine, but when women don't like it, it's frustrating to you.  Why is that?  /food for thought

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 23, 2019, 10:21:17 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE

So if you don't do it to men, why do you do it to women?

I'm actually not against a man giving a woman a compliment on her appearance.  But it seems like you refrain from doing this to men, but then you do it to women and are perplexed when it isn't well received.  So women don't receive your compliments well and you seem confused and you complain about it, but with men you just accept that they wouldn't receive it well and stop doing it, presumably without angst or complaint.  Put another way, men won't accept your compliments and that seems fine, but when women don't like it, it's frustrating to you.  Why is that?  /food for thought

That is a seriously heavy thought. I'd never looked at human dynamics that way.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 23, 2019, 10:42:01 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)

Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE

So if you don't do it to men, why do you do it to women?

I'm actually not against a man giving a woman a compliment on her appearance.  But it seems like you refrain from doing this to men, but then you do it to women and are perplexed when it isn't well received.  So women don't receive your compliments well and you seem confused and you complain about it, but with men you just accept that they wouldn't receive it well and stop doing it, presumably without angst or complaint.  Put another way, men won't accept your compliments and that seems fine, but when women don't like it, it's frustrating to you.  Why is that?  /food for thought

That is a seriously heavy thought. I'd never looked at human dynamics that way.

This is the crux of what a lot of women have been trying to get men to understand, for a long time.

Thanks, Villanelle, for articulating it in a way that hopefully might make sense in a way that other explanations have not.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Just Joe on July 23, 2019, 11:16:55 AM
So if you don't do it to men, why do you do it to women?

I'm actually not against a man giving a woman a compliment on her appearance.  But it seems like you refrain from doing this to men, but then you do it to women and are perplexed when it isn't well received.  So women don't receive your compliments well and you seem confused and you complain about it, but with men you just accept that they wouldn't receive it well and stop doing it, presumably without angst or complaint.  Put another way, men won't accept your compliments and that seems fine, but when women don't like it, it's frustrating to you.  Why is that?  /food for thought

Oh its simpler than that. I don't compliment anyone's appearance but my lovely wife. Compliments can be like little hand grenades. Some guys can say "you're HAWT" with a huge grin and get away with it. Others can't.

Keeping it friendly and professional all the time.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 23, 2019, 11:32:44 AM
I often refrain from any compliment b/c I'm just one of those guys that can have the best of intentions and manage to say the worst and not even realize it.

Thumbs up! And somehow I insulted her... ;)
Do you have the same experience with men?

I don't compliment men on their appearance. I'm surrounded by Trumpers. Guaranteed to be misinterpreted as making a pass. HEHE

So if you don't do it to men, why do you do it to women?

I'm actually not against a man giving a woman a compliment on her appearance.  But it seems like you refrain from doing this to men, but then you do it to women and are perplexed when it isn't well received.  So women don't receive your compliments well and you seem confused and you complain about it, but with men you just accept that they wouldn't receive it well and stop doing it, presumably without angst or complaint.  Put another way, men won't accept your compliments and that seems fine, but when women don't like it, it's frustrating to you.  Why is that?  /food for thought

That is a seriously heavy thought. I'd never looked at human dynamics that way.


My take on it is that we (to include women) are programmed by society to believe that women crave the approval of men, and that we are far more vain, so commenting on our appearance is more likely to feel like giving a great compliment.  If that's what we care about, it's thoughtful to provide validation, right?  Also, I think society tells us that men are kind of entitled to women's attentions and gratitudes, so when women don't receive those well, they seem snotty or stuck up, in ways most people wouldn't associate with men behaving the same way.  A woman should be grateful for the attention; a man has no (or little) such obligation. 

We don't expect a man to be excessively flattered if he's given a compliment about his appearance, and thus when he's not, we don't feel he's broken a societal expectation.  He's not stuck up or aloof; he's behaving as expected.  And we don't expect men to be grateful recipients of *any* attentions, so again we don't label them negatively when they don't, or feel like they've broken the social contract.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 23, 2019, 12:11:34 PM
I've never really thought about it to that level. thanks for articulating.
Alternate view.
I was shy/modest when young, did not like attracting attention and so avoided it even by the way I dressed. I wore everything 1-2 sizes too large. Fast forward 25 years, I'm older, divorced. I'm actually wearing pants and clothes in my size! I actually appreciate getting compliments now (EITHER sex). I don't assume its someone wanting to hit on me but a social nicety. From what I hear, it's going to be a few short years before I am completely invisible to men anyways. In addition to putting compliments in more of a perspective, I feel I am just a lot more relaxed about sex and the body in general. I've have a couple babies, multiple people have seen everything, it's just not as a big deal to me. I've kind of gone full circle and wish I was a less uptight a little sooner, but oh well. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Hula Hoop on July 23, 2019, 12:32:03 PM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pachnik on July 23, 2019, 12:37:26 PM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.

I'm in my mid-50's and love getting no street harassment.  It used to make me feel really uncomfortable. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Just Joe on July 23, 2019, 12:39:17 PM
Don't discount regional behavioral differences or rural vs city behavioral differences.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 23, 2019, 12:42:13 PM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.

That is a really good point. Even despite all that when I was younger got lots of, "why don't you smile" "youd look nicer if you smiled" also "nice headlights", "like to see you in a wet tshirt", "why won't you dance with me", and things I won't repeat (as well as experiencing a flasher, and a guy sitting next to me on the bus whipping it out and masturbating). I am dreading when my daughters change from being kids and teens to being seen as sexual objects. But I'd like to think things are better now.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 23, 2019, 01:25:34 PM
This comes back to Joe Biden for me.  Does he sniff his male co-worker's hair?  I don't think so! 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 23, 2019, 01:33:15 PM
This comes back to Joe Biden for me.  Does he sniff his male co-worker's hair?  I don't think so!

Men in power sometimes feel even more entitled to judge/comment on/possess female bodies.

Case in point, our pussy-grabber in chief.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 23, 2019, 10:14:22 PM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.

I'm in my mid-50's and love getting no street harassment.  It used to make me feel really uncomfortable.

I've lived in Vancouver for 25 years and I can't think of one occasion when I've actually seen street harassment.  I've heard people talk about it, but not actually seen it.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Aelias on July 24, 2019, 10:29:26 AM

I've lived in Vancouver for 25 years and I can't think of one occasion when I've actually seen street harassment.  I've heard people talk about it, but not actually seen it.

I think it's possible you might not have noticed it because it wasn't directed at you. Speaking for myself, it's easy to ignore the general noise of people living in close proximity to each other in a city; it's entirely different when it's directed at you personally. 

I hope you believe the women in this thread who discussed their lived experience of street harassment.  Among the women I know, myself included, it's a nearly universal experience.  In my experience, not all street harassment was threatening--most of it was easy to brush off, a couple of times I actually found it funny--but part of what sucks about street harassment is when a stranger starts yelling compliments at you, you don't know what that stranger is capable of or what their intentions are.  Sometimes I pretended I just didn't hear, but that usually prompted more comments.  Generally, I flashed a quick smile and kept moving.  But that doesn't mean I appreciated the attention.  It meant that I thought a quick smile was the way least likely to get me followed, cursed out, or worse.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 24, 2019, 10:51:27 AM

I've lived in Vancouver for 25 years and I can't think of one occasion when I've actually seen street harassment.  I've heard people talk about it, but not actually seen it.

I think it's possible you might not have noticed it because it wasn't directed at you. Speaking for myself, it's easy to ignore the general noise of people living in close proximity to each other in a city; it's entirely different when it's directed at you personally. 

I hope you believe the women in this thread who discussed their lived experience of street harassment.  Among the women I know, myself included, it's a nearly universal experience.  In my experience, not all street harassment was threatening--most of it was easy to brush off, a couple of times I actually found it funny--but part of what sucks about street harassment is when a stranger starts yelling compliments at you, you don't know what that stranger is capable of or what their intentions are.  Sometimes I pretended I just didn't hear, but that usually prompted more comments.  Generally, I flashed a quick smile and kept moving.  But that doesn't mean I appreciated the attention.  It meant that I thought a quick smile was the way least likely to get me followed, cursed out, or worse.

Yeah, that's the thing with street harassment: you don't know what the stranger's intentions are. And you also don't know what will or won't provoke them to something further. A dude catcalls you as you walk by. Don't acknowledge him? He might get pissed and start following you down the street, yelling insults and obscenities. Give him a quick smile (not because you appreciate it, but because you're trying to just get through this without further harassment)? He might take it as encouragement, and start following you down the street, making further comments on your appearance, maybe some lewd noises -- and then, when he realizes you aren't going to engage further, start yelling insults and obscenities.

Confront him, and tell him you don't appreciate it? Even in a very calm, matter of fact voice? Oh, boy. Buckle up, buttercup. It might make him take a step back, but more than likely it will just make him angry. The sexual harassment equivalent of road rage.

Who knows? Or, maybe he'll just let it go, and focus on the next woman he wants to harass. That's what you hope, anyway. (Which is pretty freaking sad.)

I've had all those scenarios happen to me, multiple times. And you never know which one it's gonna be.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: OtherJen on July 24, 2019, 11:22:48 AM
*shudder* The random leering and unsolicited, sometimes filthy comments in the grocery store and similar places are bad enough. At my old church, there was a creepy older man who used to stare at me and lurk around every Sunday and wait to talk to me, while ignoring all signs that I didnít want to talk to him. I once had a male fellow driver wave frantically at me to get me to roll down my window while at a stoplight; I expected to be told that I had a flat tire or similar but no, he wanted to tell me that Iíd be so much prettier if I smiled.

One of the creepiest stranger harassment episodes in recent memory (although not as creepy as learning that a male now ex-friend has been stalking me) was during a weekday morning walk in my generally safe suburban neighborhood. Creepy dude in a van rolled up alongside me, kept pace with me, and tried to convince me that I should go for a ride with him. He eventually gave up, but the neighborhood was quiet that day, with no one else around and I didnít have my phone. It could have ended very differently.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 24, 2019, 11:36:41 AM
*shudder* The random leering and unsolicited, sometimes filthy comments in the grocery store and similar places are bad enough. At my old church, there was a creepy older man who used to stare at me and lurk around every Sunday and wait to talk to me, while ignoring all signs that I didnít want to talk to him. I once had a male fellow driver wave frantically at me to get me to roll down my window while at a stoplight; I expected to be told that I had a flat tire or similar but no, he wanted to tell me that Iíd be so much prettier if I smiled.

One of the creepiest stranger harassment episodes in recent memory (although not as creepy as learning that a male now ex-friend has been stalking me) was during a weekday morning walk in my generally safe suburban neighborhood. Creepy dude in a van rolled up alongside me, kept pace with me, and tried to convince me that I should go for a ride with him. He eventually gave up, but the neighborhood was quiet that day, with no one else around and I didnít have my phone. It could have ended very differently.

Oh, man. That's creepy as hell.

Reminds me of something that happened to me a couple of summers ago. I was taking a long afternoon walk in my neighborhood (urban residential, upper-middle class, bright sunny day, not a sketchy area at all). I was listening to a podcast, earbuds in. A guy walked past me on the sidewalk in the other direction, maybe early 40s. He smiled at me, I did a "cordial but not overly friendly" smile back. Went on my merry way.

A few blocks later, another guy who was standing in front of a house across the street came over to me. I was a little weirded out because he clearly went out of his way to approach me. Apprehensively, I took my earbuds out...

He came over to warn me that some guy had been following me about half a block behind me for a while. He turned and pointed, and I looked to where he was pointing to see the first guy run back down the street in the other direction and duck into an alley.

Thank God for the second guy. Who knows what the first guy had planned.

I'm usually very careful and aware of my surroundings, but that neighborhood at that time of day was about the last place I would ever expect to be stalked. I'm a lot more careful to pay attention to people I encounter on my walks now.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 24, 2019, 11:46:05 AM
I think nearly every woman has these kinds of stories.

I also wonder if nearly every man has stories about being physically threatened and intimidated by other men.  I don't know, I'm not male, but I would not be surprised if there is a male experience that is the male version of this kind of thing.

I had a weird experience once where a male friend was telling me how he was teaching his girlfriend's toddler, who must have been 3 or 4 years old, which women were "Hey Baby"s and which women were not "Hey Baby"s.  That was one of the weirdest conversations I've had.  So, this stuff is taught, at least by that example. My sons have not been taught this kind of thing, and I am no longer friends with the man who shared it.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: OtherJen on July 24, 2019, 12:33:06 PM
*shudder* The random leering and unsolicited, sometimes filthy comments in the grocery store and similar places are bad enough. At my old church, there was a creepy older man who used to stare at me and lurk around every Sunday and wait to talk to me, while ignoring all signs that I didnít want to talk to him. I once had a male fellow driver wave frantically at me to get me to roll down my window while at a stoplight; I expected to be told that I had a flat tire or similar but no, he wanted to tell me that Iíd be so much prettier if I smiled.

One of the creepiest stranger harassment episodes in recent memory (although not as creepy as learning that a male now ex-friend has been stalking me) was during a weekday morning walk in my generally safe suburban neighborhood. Creepy dude in a van rolled up alongside me, kept pace with me, and tried to convince me that I should go for a ride with him. He eventually gave up, but the neighborhood was quiet that day, with no one else around and I didnít have my phone. It could have ended very differently.

Oh, man. That's creepy as hell.

Reminds me of something that happened to me a couple of summers ago. I was taking a long afternoon walk in my neighborhood (urban residential, upper-middle class, bright sunny day, not a sketchy area at all). I was listening to a podcast, earbuds in. A guy walked past me on the sidewalk in the other direction, maybe early 40s. He smiled at me, I did a "cordial but not overly friendly" smile back. Went on my merry way.

A few blocks later, another guy who was standing in front of a house across the street came over to me. I was a little weirded out because he clearly went out of his way to approach me. Apprehensively, I took my earbuds out...

He came over to warn me that some guy had been following me about half a block behind me for a while. He turned and pointed, and I looked to where he was pointing to see the first guy run back down the street in the other direction and duck into an alley.

Thank God for the second guy. Who knows what the first guy had planned.

I'm usually very careful and aware of my surroundings, but that neighborhood at that time of day was about the last place I would ever expect to be stalked. I'm a lot more careful to pay attention to people I encounter on my walks now.

Ugh, ugh, ugh. Definitely thank god for the second guy. This is why I don't wear earbuds when I'm out walking (and I hate that it's even an issue; the men in my life don't think twice about it).
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: spartana on July 24, 2019, 12:40:58 PM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.

I'm in my mid-50's and love getting no street harassment.  It used to make me feel really uncomfortable.

I've lived in Vancouver for 25 years and I can't think of one occasion when I've actually seen street harassment.  I've heard people talk about it, but not actually seen it.
Like @Aelias said, if its not directed at you personally you probably never noticed it. It IS a constant thing even for old farts like me. Being grabbed or followed while riding your bike or out walking etc or just the "compliments" is real and basicly just plain old sexual harrashment. Throw in a serious stalker or 2 and something simple like a walk in the park starts to seem actually dangerous.

While this is a totally different thing from compliments or comments from male and female friends and family mentioned before, it is often true that many men (and probably some women) who are total strangers often feel they can make inappropriate comments to anyone they want. Although an 80 year old woman saying my hair is pretty or my smile is pretty feels different then a strange man saying the same. Maybe that's my own sex bias and I should assume the old woman and the younger man both have the same harmless intentions.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 25, 2019, 12:59:01 AM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.

I'm in my mid-50's and love getting no street harassment.  It used to make me feel really uncomfortable.

I've lived in Vancouver for 25 years and I can't think of one occasion when I've actually seen street harassment.  I've heard people talk about it, but not actually seen it.
Like @Aelias said, if its not directed at you personally you probably never noticed it. It IS a constant thing even for old farts like me. Being grabbed or followed while riding your bike or out walking etc or just the "compliments" is real and basicly just plain old sexual harrashment. Throw in a serious stalker or 2 and something simple like a walk in the park starts to seem actually dangerous.

While this is a totally different thing from compliments or comments from male and female friends and family mentioned before, it is often true that many men (and probably some women) who are total strangers often feel they can make inappropriate comments to anyone they want. Although an 80 year old woman saying my hair is pretty or my smile is pretty feels different then a strange man saying the same. Maybe that's my own sex bias and I should assume the old woman and the younger man both have the same harmless intentions.

It could be that.  I have an adult daughter who would probably be considered attractive by many and also 2 teenage granddaughters who I think it's fair to say are attractive as one is a successful actress with lots of instagram followers. I can only think of 1 occasion where my daughter mentioned a guy harassing her. May have happened and I don't know about it, I don't know.
Also actor grandchild is mixed race with one parent being black. She did an interview and was asked if she'd ever encountered racism and she thought and said "no, never"
I have an older sister, who I remember when we were young would shout "show us your c*ck" at men working on the roads.  My own personal experiences in my life are somewhat at odds with what I often hear.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: OtherJen on July 25, 2019, 05:49:36 AM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.

I'm in my mid-50's and love getting no street harassment.  It used to make me feel really uncomfortable.

I've lived in Vancouver for 25 years and I can't think of one occasion when I've actually seen street harassment.  I've heard people talk about it, but not actually seen it.
Like @Aelias said, if its not directed at you personally you probably never noticed it. It IS a constant thing even for old farts like me. Being grabbed or followed while riding your bike or out walking etc or just the "compliments" is real and basicly just plain old sexual harrashment. Throw in a serious stalker or 2 and something simple like a walk in the park starts to seem actually dangerous.

While this is a totally different thing from compliments or comments from male and female friends and family mentioned before, it is often true that many men (and probably some women) who are total strangers often feel they can make inappropriate comments to anyone they want. Although an 80 year old woman saying my hair is pretty or my smile is pretty feels different then a strange man saying the same. Maybe that's my own sex bias and I should assume the old woman and the younger man both have the same harmless intentions.

It could be that.  I have an adult daughter who would probably be considered attractive by many and also 2 teenage granddaughters who I think it's fair to say are attractive as one is a successful actress with lots of instagram followers. I can only think of 1 occasion where my daughter mentioned a guy harassing her. May have happened and I don't know about it, I don't know.
Also actor grandchild is mixed race with one parent being black. She did an interview and was asked if she'd ever encountered racism and she thought and said "no, never"
I have an older sister, who I remember when we were young would shout "show us your c*ck" at men working on the roads.  My own personal experiences in my life are somewhat at odds with what I often hear.

I don't think I've ever told my dad about the street/other harassment. It would be too upsetting for him. There's nothing he can do about it. I don't always tell my husband for the same reason. I suspect that many of us downplay the issue, either for this reason or because we think we won't be believed.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 25, 2019, 06:15:42 AM
Nobody talks about it.  What is the point?  It is also embarrassing.

People might talk about it if it is dangerous, or they think a predator is out there.  But normal rude guys?  Not worth the time to discuss.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 25, 2019, 09:49:19 AM
Hit the nail on the head, Villanelle.

I remember that back when I used to get a lot of street harassment from men, it was often in the terms Villanelle talks about.  Random guys on the street would shout "smile, beautiful" or make a complimentary comment about a body part (or make X-rated comments which I won't repeat) and I was somehow meant to take that as a compliment and be flattered that these random guys thought I was sexually attractive when what I really wanted was to just walk down the street without being harassed/having my body commented upon like (I assume) men do.  Now that I'm in my late 40s I enjoy the heck out of being invisible to the street harassers.  I love being able to walk down the street without the weird comments or the fear that someone will make a weird comment if I look in their direction.  Normal men still give me attention just as I give them attention but no weird "compliments" - what joy.

I'm in my mid-50's and love getting no street harassment.  It used to make me feel really uncomfortable.

I've lived in Vancouver for 25 years and I can't think of one occasion when I've actually seen street harassment.  I've heard people talk about it, but not actually seen it.
Like @Aelias said, if its not directed at you personally you probably never noticed it. It IS a constant thing even for old farts like me. Being grabbed or followed while riding your bike or out walking etc or just the "compliments" is real and basicly just plain old sexual harrashment. Throw in a serious stalker or 2 and something simple like a walk in the park starts to seem actually dangerous.

While this is a totally different thing from compliments or comments from male and female friends and family mentioned before, it is often true that many men (and probably some women) who are total strangers often feel they can make inappropriate comments to anyone they want. Although an 80 year old woman saying my hair is pretty or my smile is pretty feels different then a strange man saying the same. Maybe that's my own sex bias and I should assume the old woman and the younger man both have the same harmless intentions.

It could be that.  I have an adult daughter who would probably be considered attractive by many and also 2 teenage granddaughters who I think it's fair to say are attractive as one is a successful actress with lots of instagram followers. I can only think of 1 occasion where my daughter mentioned a guy harassing her. May have happened and I don't know about it, I don't know.
Also actor grandchild is mixed race with one parent being black. She did an interview and was asked if she'd ever encountered racism and she thought and said "no, never"
I have an older sister, who I remember when we were young would shout "show us your c*ck" at men working on the roads.  My own personal experiences in my life are somewhat at odds with what I often hear.

Street harassment is an every day thing  Not that it happens to every woman every day, but it is quite frequent.  I don't think I have every once, in a 20 year relationship, mentioned to my husband that I was cat called or otherwise harassed on the street, but it has happened dozens and dozens of times. 

What would be the point in mentioning it?  It would solve nothing.  And frankly, it's a bit humiliating, so I don't exactly want to spread the word and linger over it.  I didn't tell my parents when I was cruelly teased in junior high because the last thing I wanted was to dwell on those experiences.  Spreading the to other parts of my life would have made them worse, and done nothing to prevent them.

So lack of mentioning has nothing to do with lack of happening.  Also, attractiveness has VERY little to do with the situation.  Just as attractive women aren't really raped more often than less attractive women; these things are about power, not attraction.

And maybe it hasn't happened much to the women in your life for some reason.  Consider them very, very fortunate.  But trust that it very much does happen, very often, to very many women.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 25, 2019, 09:52:13 AM
I'm sure I never mentioned it to my father when he was alive. Because it would have upset him and worried him.

I never talked to my mom about it, either. Because it's just so common. It's not "an event."
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on July 25, 2019, 09:58:28 AM
That was the whole point of the #metoo movement, to make it clear that this kind of harassment is pretty universally experienced by women. I am older now and live in a professional/upper middle class bubble, so it almost doesnít happen to me anymore. It certainly did in the past.

I stumbled upon an ancient email where I wrote to a friend about how some kid had grabbed my boobs when I was walking home on a trail from school. I had totally forgotten about it (buried the memory?). I shared that with my husband and he was surprised enough that initially he thought I was telling him about some dream I had had.

We moved from a slightly sketchy area (ďtransitioningĒ) to a much nicer neighborhood. I canít begin to describe the mental load that fell off by no longer thinking about being aware of my surroundings and judging safety and not weighing whether to go for a walk after dusk or not. To just feel safe walking down the street is a big luxury, one I donít think my husband can relate to.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 25, 2019, 11:10:27 AM
#metoo is a good thing. I think it's the right thing. And what I love about it is that women can stick together through these common experiences and feel stronger.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: spartana on July 25, 2019, 11:15:39 AM
@pudding as others have said this happens all the time - generally from the time a girl hits puberty at 13 or so. It doesn't really have anything to do with attractiveness or even age, but is a power trip some guys think is fun. Most of us don't actively talk about it as its a part of our lives so you may have to directly ask your daughters and granddaughters their experience.

For example a couple of weeks ago I was walking on a idyllic county road up in redwood groves in NorCal and some dude who was herding his cows say me, whipped it out, and proceeded to masturbate. I was like "ugh you gotta be kidding me" but its a common enough thing (along with air humping and making jacking off motions while saying "hey baby you want some of this" or similar) that I totally forgot about it until now. I'm sure even if your daughter didn't experience this.kind of thing they probably have guys saying random sexual things to them much of their lives.

BTW years ago the exact same thing happened to me in Ireland (and similair types of things in other countries) so it's not just a USA thing.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: BabyShark on July 25, 2019, 11:30:28 AM
this reminds me of that viral tweet a little while ago that said something to the effect of "women, if there were no men in the world for 24 hours, what would you do?" and so many of the responses were "go for a walk outside."
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: spartana on July 25, 2019, 11:38:41 AM
Ha ha. I still do everything I want - and often by myself - and just ignore everyone but it always amazes me that some complete stranger feels it's ok to say or do whatever they want. Although no one has ever told me I'd look better with a couple of dead spiders glued to my eyes (eyelash extensions)....yet. I might get pissed about that ;-).
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on July 25, 2019, 11:47:17 AM
@pudding as others have said this happens all the time - generally from the time a girl hits puberty at 13 or so. It doesn't really have anything to do with attractiveness or even age, but is a power trip some guys think is fun. Most of us don't actively talk about it as its a part of our lives so you may have to directly ask your daughters and granddaughters their experience.

For example a couple of weeks ago I was walking on a idyllic county road up in redwood groves in NorCal and some dude who was herding his cows say me, whipped it out, and proceeded to masturbate. I was like "ugh you gotta be kidding me" but its a common enough thing (along with air humping and making jacking off motions while saying "hey baby you want some of this" or similar) that I totally forgot about it until now. I'm sure even if your daughter didn't experience this.kind of thing they probably have guys saying random sexual things to them much of their lives.

BTW years ago the exact same thing happened to me in Ireland (and similair types of things in other countries) so it's not just a USA thing.
Good point. I should add that the boob-grabbing incident I mentioned above was in france.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Fru-Gal on July 25, 2019, 11:56:42 AM
1. Beauty is a form of power. Those who wield it successfully (some obviously, some insidiously) enjoy massive results.
2. Beauty is also a form of female war paint, used among women for status.
3. Beauty is a huge business with a great profit margin manufacturing tiny amounts of cheap products, marketing them as having magical properties and selling them at vast markup.
4. There are plenty of male analogs to the female beauty industry. As a businesswoman, any high-profit-margin industry is very attractive to me!
5. Thankfully we have a choice in how we present ourselves as women. The only gross part about beauty today IMHO is any sense of intense prep being required for public activity. However, a number of celebrities and others have chosen to flout this and are known for their signature *lack* of makeup (Alicia Keys, Tilda Swinton).
6. Hair is incredibly powerful as a beauty signifier and can be more effective than facial plastic surgery.
7. The most beautiful women in history have had an uncanny ability to magnify their signature features and downplay others.
8. Trends in physical beauty are fickle and often a celebrity with an unusual feature is the one who launches the next trend.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 26, 2019, 09:44:59 AM
@pudding as others have said this happens all the time - generally from the time a girl hits puberty at 13 or so. It doesn't really have anything to do with attractiveness or even age, but is a power trip some guys think is fun. Most of us don't actively talk about it as its a part of our lives so you may have to directly ask your daughters and granddaughters their experience.

I was 10 the first time I was catcalled walking down the street in my neighborhood.  Fortunately nothing more than that happened, as I was too young to understand how dangerous that situation was, and no one else was around to help me if those guys had decided they wanted to do more than shout and wolf-whistle at a fifth grader.

I told this story to my husband once, because he was talking about how hurtful it can be for a guy to be labelled "creepy" by girls, and how hard it is to learn how not to be creepy.  I wanted him to really understand why avoiding 'creepy' people is so ingrained and important to young women.  It's just not the kind of thing I'd bring up otherwise.  It simply wouldn't occur to me to mention it unless someone else brought the topic up.


Maybe it's a regional thing too.

That's why I felt compelled to reply to the person who was relieved to be older as now the relentless catcalls that had made her miserable had stopped.

And we both live in Vancouver.

I consider myself an observant kind of person and often see trends before my friends notice them, at least that's how it seems to be. I spend a lot of time outdoors, have some very attractive female friends that work in the arts, dance and music, hey a couple of them are even strippers.

Yet I rarely ever see them get harrassed, can't think of an occasion I was around one of them when they got cat called.

Yet some other peoples experiences in this city are that they get cat called to the point that it's a relief to get old.

I'm still trying to figure it out and I'll be leaving it at that.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 26, 2019, 09:58:12 AM
@pudding as others have said this happens all the time - generally from the time a girl hits puberty at 13 or so. It doesn't really have anything to do with attractiveness or even age, but is a power trip some guys think is fun. Most of us don't actively talk about it as its a part of our lives so you may have to directly ask your daughters and granddaughters their experience.

I was 10 the first time I was catcalled walking down the street in my neighborhood.  Fortunately nothing more than that happened, as I was too young to understand how dangerous that situation was, and no one else was around to help me if those guys had decided they wanted to do more than shout and wolf-whistle at a fifth grader.

I told this story to my husband once, because he was talking about how hurtful it can be for a guy to be labelled "creepy" by girls, and how hard it is to learn how not to be creepy.  I wanted him to really understand why avoiding 'creepy' people is so ingrained and important to young women.  It's just not the kind of thing I'd bring up otherwise.  It simply wouldn't occur to me to mention it unless someone else brought the topic up.


Maybe it's a regional thing too.

That's why I felt compelled to reply to the person who was relieved to be older as now the relentless catcalls that had made her miserable had stopped.

And we both live in Vancouver.

I consider myself an observant kind of person and often see trends before my friends notice them, at least that's how it seems to be. I spend a lot of time outdoors, have some very attractive female friends that work in the arts, dance and music, hey a couple of them are even strippers.

Yet I rarely ever see them get harrassed, can't think of an occasion I was around one of them when they got cat called.

Yet some other peoples experiences in this city are that they get cat called to the point that it's a relief to get old.

I'm still trying to figure it out and I'll be leaving it at that.

Dude. Guys don't catcall women when other men are with them. Because they see you as having "dibs" on her.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Fru-Gal on July 26, 2019, 10:02:38 AM
Men don't cat call a woman who is accompanied by a man.

Interestingly, while traveling recently in a European city famous for lovers, I experienced zero comments from strange men. But in another European city famous for a fictional detective, I got some aggressive comments from men of all walks of life while I was out running, biking, and returning at night from a business meeting.

When conversing about prejudice, if you are member of the "offending" group, you simply nod politely when told a story. Do not argue the experience. For example, a white person should not tell a black person their experience isn't something you've ever seen; an abled person shouldn't tell someone in a wheelchair that they've never had difficulty getting on a bus; a man shouldn't tell a woman his experience with the pain of childbirth; etc.

I get it, it sucks sometimes to be an outsider in a conversation about victimhood, which are all too common these days (and NO one is immune to being labeled an oppressor -- to wit, everyone on this site is probably a financial oppressor LOL), but your only option is to listen.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: OtherJen on July 26, 2019, 10:43:44 AM
@pudding as others have said this happens all the time - generally from the time a girl hits puberty at 13 or so. It doesn't really have anything to do with attractiveness or even age, but is a power trip some guys think is fun. Most of us don't actively talk about it as its a part of our lives so you may have to directly ask your daughters and granddaughters their experience.

I was 10 the first time I was catcalled walking down the street in my neighborhood.  Fortunately nothing more than that happened, as I was too young to understand how dangerous that situation was, and no one else was around to help me if those guys had decided they wanted to do more than shout and wolf-whistle at a fifth grader.

I told this story to my husband once, because he was talking about how hurtful it can be for a guy to be labelled "creepy" by girls, and how hard it is to learn how not to be creepy.  I wanted him to really understand why avoiding 'creepy' people is so ingrained and important to young women.  It's just not the kind of thing I'd bring up otherwise.  It simply wouldn't occur to me to mention it unless someone else brought the topic up.


Maybe it's a regional thing too.

That's why I felt compelled to reply to the person who was relieved to be older as now the relentless catcalls that had made her miserable had stopped.

And we both live in Vancouver.

I consider myself an observant kind of person and often see trends before my friends notice them, at least that's how it seems to be. I spend a lot of time outdoors, have some very attractive female friends that work in the arts, dance and music, hey a couple of them are even strippers.

Yet I rarely ever see them get harrassed, can't think of an occasion I was around one of them when they got cat called.

Yet some other peoples experiences in this city are that they get cat called to the point that it's a relief to get old.

I'm still trying to figure it out and I'll be leaving it at that.

Dude. Guys don't catcall women when other men are with them. Because they see you as having "dibs" on her.

THIS.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pachnik on July 26, 2019, 10:51:32 AM
Maybe it's a regional thing too.

That's why I felt compelled to reply to the person who was relieved to be older as now the relentless catcalls that had made her miserable had stopped.

And we both live in Vancouver.

I consider myself an observant kind of person and often see trends before my friends notice them, at least that's how it seems to be. I spend a lot of time outdoors, have some very attractive female friends that work in the arts, dance and music, hey a couple of them are even strippers.

Yet I rarely ever see them get harrassed, can't think of an occasion I was around one of them when they got cat called.

Yet some other peoples experiences in this city are that they get cat called to the point that it's a relief to get old.

I'm still trying to figure it out and I'll be leaving it at that.

It wasn't relentless and it didn't make me miserable but I didn't like it.   I felt uncomfortable at times.   It also never happened if I was with my husband.  Like someone else said, it just doesn't happen then because of my male companion having 'dibs'. 

There's that whole thing about women disappearing as they get older and this is the silver lining to it for me anyway.   i don't mean to speak for anyone else.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 26, 2019, 11:25:59 AM
Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 26, 2019, 11:37:59 AM
Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 27, 2019, 01:47:03 PM
Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 27, 2019, 01:51:56 PM
I'm glad that your friend attended the event with no issues.

That of course doesn't mean that catcalling doesn't happen.  I believe there is a video somewhere of catcalling in NYC and it was ridiculous. Some of this may be regional. I live in the upper midwest and not in a big city and I'm not in environments much where that would happen.  Also, I'm not that hot, but I was once tall, thin and 17 with good hair.

But I have stories to tell too.  I don't remember being catcalled, but I do remember being a teenage girl and going to the mall by myself, leaving my mom's car door unlocked, and coming back to the car to find porn magazines spread out on the seats. 

I picked up the magazines, put them on the ground next to the car and drove away.

I never told my parents -- what and get criticized for leaving the door unlocked?

This did not phase me much as a kid. I thought it was very stupid and weird.  I mean, don't these people want to keep their magazines? Why leave them in my car?  Why would anyone want to go in my car (or really, my mom's car?)

Now as an adult I'm a little more squicked out by it.

Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: OtherJen on July 27, 2019, 04:18:13 PM
Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.


Yeah, now it really is veering into the "I don't see it so it can't possibly exist" territory. I'm glad that your roommate had fun and didn't experience a hostile and potentially dangerous situation. Good for her. If only all women's experiences were always like that. Many of us are telling you that they are not. Yet, you keep arguing that you haven't seen it and your roommate didn't experience it, so you can't figure out where any of these men are (i.e., implying that they don't exist).

I mean, I've never been to Vancouver. People tell me that they live there or have visited, but I haven't seen it myself and none of my immediate family has been there. Yet, I don't doubt other people's lived experiences there. I don't know what I would get out of such a ridiculous argument or from denying the lived experiences of millions.

Quote
I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're joking, right? Trolling us?

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 27, 2019, 04:42:10 PM
Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're right.  It doesn't happen.  It's a feminist-created fiction.

Or maybe it only happens to ugly girls. Or to women who don't dress cutely enough.  Or to those irresponsible enough to walk in bad parts of town.

Great.  Now that we've determined that, the rest of us can stop reading about your doubts about our reality.  You really, really need to just stop.  "Your truth" has nothing to do with actual reality, as experienced by hundreds of thousands of women.



Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Raenia on July 27, 2019, 05:06:31 PM
Yeah, this is the other reason I don't share these stories.  Seriously, if you can't validate other people lived experiences and try to learn something, then just keep it to yourself.  Seriously considering deleting my previous post - if it's not going to help you learn something, then why expose myself like that?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on July 27, 2019, 05:55:29 PM
Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.

I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're right.  It doesn't happen.  It's a feminist-created fiction.

Or maybe it only happens to ugly girls. Or to women who don't dress cutely enough.  Or to those irresponsible enough to walk in bad parts of town.

Great.  Now that we've determined that, the rest of us can stop reading about your doubts about our reality.  You really, really need to just stop.  "Your truth" has nothing to do with actual reality, as experienced by hundreds of thousands of women.
Millions of women, you mean.

The thing about #metoo is that it was freaking everyone in my newsfeed, and my social circle is mostly privileged, middle-class people.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: gaja on July 27, 2019, 06:24:13 PM
Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on July 27, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
Good idea!
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: OtherJen on July 27, 2019, 06:45:13 PM
Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981

That is so cool! Those costumes are gorgeous.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 27, 2019, 09:59:39 PM
Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981

Okay...
Super random, but yes, I am actually Nordic...
But yeah, where I live, Nordic national costumes would not be appropriate for galas.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 27, 2019, 10:21:34 PM
Pudding, I think you mean well and are trying to understand, but you are edging toward insulting territory.  The women in your life haven't told you about catcalling (I would probably lie to my dad if he asked directly, because it's such an awkward, weird thing) and you haven't seen it happen when you are with them.  Okay.  Women don't talk about this, and men rarely do it when a woman is with a man.

It happens. 

Stop arguing that it doesn't happen where you are.  It does.  IT.  HAPPENS.  You haven't said it doesn't but you've come close.  Stop.  We've now explained to you, in several ways from several people.  Time to accept that this experience is real, and move on. 

To be very clear, I'm not saying you denied it, but this sort of thing gets really frustrating for women.  We talk about our experiences--painful, emotional experiences--and then we have to confirm for men that our experiences are real, that they happen in certain ways, etc. 

If your daughter told you about some of the experiences here as being hers, what would you say?  What would you hope someone else said?  I suspect, "huh, I've never seen that"  or "I have an attractive friend and she's never mentioned this kind of thing," would not be on that list.

I mean, let's hope not. Because if so, imagine the message that would give his daughter about her father's dismissiveness and lack of support. As though she needed any more lessons about how dismissive men are of girls and women.

Ok, I have to report back about my latest observations here in Vancouver BC as there's an important new development.

Yesterday my room mate whos is a 25 year old former Hooters waitress and into dressing up in cosplay outfits went to a cosplay event.

She and her female friend left the house in the afternoon, my roommate was wearing a black silk jacket with a skull and crossbones on it, and the jacket was open and not buttoned at all, underneath is she wore a scarlet red bra and no shirt. She also wore fishnet stockings and high heeled leather boots and a really wild hair style with one of those black face masks that are popular in K-pop music videos (She's Japanese) So she was striking looking!

She took public transport to go to the event and to get back home at night. She had to travel through areas that are ethnically diverse, whites, Caribbean, Asian.

She came home in a good mood and had no reports of any type of street harassment.

So I'm wondering where it happens and who's doing it?   As a male myself I'd be inclined to have a gentle word with the harassers so long as it didn't endanger me, I mean it! I really would. But i can't find any and neither can my roommate.


Yeah, now it really is veering into the "I don't see it so it can't possibly exist" territory. I'm glad that your roommate had fun and didn't experience a hostile and potentially dangerous situation. Good for her. If only all women's experiences were always like that. Many of us are telling you that they are not. Yet, you keep arguing that you haven't seen it and your roommate didn't experience it, so you can't figure out where any of these men are (i.e., implying that they don't exist).

I mean, I've never been to Vancouver. People tell me that they live there or have visited, but I haven't seen it myself and none of my immediate family has been there. Yet, I don't doubt other people's lived experiences there. I don't know what I would get out of such a ridiculous argument or from denying the lived experiences of millions.

Quote
I hope I don't get in trouble for telling my truth.

You're joking, right? Trolling us?

No I'm not trolling, nor am I singling out anyone on here and saying that I don't believe them.


However I am saying that, if I haven't seen it in the city I live, and I can't find it even when actively looking for it like I did again today when I was downtown on a very busy summers day. Then yes!  I question to what degree it exists here where I live. To say that makes me somehow a sexist is logic that I can't fathom. Why? Why does it make me sexist? Why am I wrong to wonder how come? How come I don't see this rampant and constant harassment? Even to young women in cosplay costumes.

Of course I know it happens at times, sometimes it's blatant in your face and the perpetrator could do with a swift kick to the head. Of course it happens. Weird stuff happens and happens to all people. I'm just wondering to what degree.

I once had someone ask me for a business card (I have a small renovation business)   the women that asked for it strangely said she was 'getting me for her sister for her birthday'.

A few days later the sister called me to go to her house to do some work. While there she was asked me if she could take pictures of me working?  I said OK, thinking this is awkward.

Coincidentally I had a friend who worked for her, it turned out that the women put the pictures of me working up on her office wall. Seemed rather strange to me. Reversed the genders and it would have been called what? If the customer was a man taking pictures of the female cleaner bending over and then pinned them up on his office wall.

Another time a gay guy asked me to drill holes in a wall so he could 'peep' through at people in a jacuzzi.

Another time an employee of mine asked for time off so she could do her side gig which she told me was making pornographic movies... she'd take a camera out and lay next to the highway where truckers could see her and the guy 'actor' and film.

It was for a site called 'f**** for cash'   She later confided in me that she'd been in jail and used to give the male guard bj's for cigarettes, then when the deal went sour she sued him for sexual assault.

A few weeks before that she'd given me some 'pictures' of a 'ahem' photo shoot that she'd done. I never asked for them and found it quite disturbing, and I threw them in the garbage can.

Another story she told me was that her and a friend wanted to go on a vacation. So her friend called up a guy she'd been sleeping with, made up a story that he had got her pregnant and that he had to pay for her to travel to her hometown to get an abortion. Which he paid up the cash for, and that they used for a vacation instead as she wasn't pregnant.

Another time a women at an obviously brothel like 'massage parlour' wanted me to do work for.... exchange of services ... wink wink
Another time one nipped my azz when I was stood on a chair. Another comes to mind of a petite female customer and a disagreement about payment for painting her house. With no provocation from me she punched me in the chest. I told her if she did it again I'd call the cops.

One which I'll never forget is that there used to be a very, very legitimate foot massage place on Burrard Street (I won't name it)  I once went there for a very legitimate underwear and towel around waist massage.

The masseuse shoved her hand under the towel and my underwear and grabbed me!  It was never asked for, never implied that I was there for that or looking for that, for all she knew my wife could have been waiting in the car outside.

I can only talk of my own experiences in life.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: shuffler on July 28, 2019, 01:39:09 AM
<list of non-sequiturs tangentially related to sex>
Hey man, remember when I helped you figure out that all the wemens weren't actually coming for your gold (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/single-and-fire'd-how-to-approach-relationships-and-$/msg1378898/#msg1378898)?

When you walked around town on that sunny summer day yesterday, did you see any common-law wives stealing half their innocent man's life savings?
No?
Did your cosplay friend unjustly enrich herself via common-law gold-digging?
No?

Hmm.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you so readily believed that the law would allow women to steal half your money, and why you're now so reticent to believe women who tell you that they experience cat-calling?

Maybe your intuition isn't so great when it comes to women's motivations and experiences.  Maybe you should listen to them.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 28, 2019, 06:02:55 AM
I don't doubt that weird come-ons happen to men too.  I don't think anyone was saying that men are exempt from harassment. It was strange that when that 10 hours of walking in NYC video came out, there were all these copycats. Wikipedia also said that the woman in the video received death threats.  Why would she receive death threats?  But with the copy cat videos -- was it just to make the woman's experience seem less meaningful?  Are we saying that any of this is OK?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Raenia on July 28, 2019, 06:08:40 AM
@pudding, please delete the part of your post above where you quoted my experience.  I no longer want it on the forum and will be deleting my post.

@Kris and @OtherJen, would you please do the same?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 28, 2019, 06:44:30 AM
Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

But yeah growing up it was just prevalent, part of the social fabric. The worse ones were the propositions that were associated with jobs or money or housing. My sister in law when she was just out of high school worked at a restaurant where the son of the owner was a total dirtbag. He made a number of comments to my former sil, and told her to stay after work to meet his friends "neil and bob". I would listen to the gossip and avoid places that had that reputation, but still for example my sister and i's landlord offered to give us reduced rent to be in a porno film. My sister moved to an apartment. She got a weird feeling because it seemed like her stuff was being gone through. And then the male landlord started letting himself into the apartment while she was there, including one time when she was in bed, she felt unsafe and moved out. The most common was a quid pro quo of working as a waitress or in a bar, but you would only get hired if, you know. It sucked. I was able to avoid that stuff but I did have some friends who got in bad situations simply because they needed a job.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pachnik on July 28, 2019, 07:12:59 AM
Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

I was thinking this too.  a general decrease of it in society.   But I definitely did experience it as a young and early middle-age woman.   
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pachnik on July 28, 2019, 07:17:01 AM
And the Nordic costumes are gorgeous!   A good friend's mom came to Canada from Norway in her mid-teens years.  When she first arrived she wore her long blonde hair in a crown of braids on top of her head.  Perhaps this was a traditional hair style?  I saw the old black and white photo and she was so beautiful. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on July 28, 2019, 07:26:19 AM
Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

But yeah growing up it was just prevalent, part of the social fabric. The worse ones were the propositions that were associated with jobs or money or housing. My sister in law when she was just out of high school worked at a restaurant where the son of the owner was a total dirtbag. He made a number of comments to my former sil, and told her to stay after work to meet his friends "bob and neil". I would listen to the gossip and avoid places that had that reputation, but still for example my sister and i's landlord offered to give us reduced rent to be in a porno film. My sister moved to an apartment. She got a weird feeling because it seemed like her stuff was being gone through. And then the male landlord started letting himself into the apartment while she was there, including one time when she was in bed, she felt unsafe and moved out. The most common was a quid pro quo of working as a waitress or in a bar, but you would only get hired if, you know. It sucked. I was able to avoid that stuff but I did have some friends who got in bad situations simply because they needed a job.

That's all horrible.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 28, 2019, 08:10:39 AM
And the Nordic costumes are gorgeous!   A good friend's mom came to Canada from Norway in her mid-teens years.  When she first arrived she wore her long blonde hair in a crown of braids on top of her head.  Perhaps this was a traditional hair style?  I saw the old black and white photo and she was so beautiful.

Yes! I noticed that there were different styles when clicking on the website. I wonder if the different styles are from different regions or have different meanings...

I do like the idea of "affordable" glamour for MMM. Basically really nice products not a big price. For me growing up that was using noxema for my face. Now I love my cetaphil spf 15 face lotion and use it every day. In the summer I love the avenno spf lotion that is zinc versus chemical-based for my face (I'd have to look up the name). Another thing I like, is getting a tiny tub of cocoa butter vaseline. I use it on my lips and it lasts a long time.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on July 28, 2019, 08:42:25 AM
I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, or whether it's helpful to add or not... but I simply wanted to say in a general sense that the #metoo movement opened my eyes quite a bit and made me think about my own behavior, and the behavior of those around me, much more.

I am a different man today than I was in the past, and it is due to the many women who have been brave enough to speak openly and publicly about things that are embarrassing, uncomfortable and often painful.

I only add this because I want the women in this thread to know that you're not simply yelling into a void.  Many men are hearing what you're saying.  You may not always know it, and you may not hear them acknowledge it (often times because we aren't certain what to say)... but it is making a difference (at least in some of us).
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: gaja on July 28, 2019, 09:04:52 AM
Maybe we need a thread on affordable glam. I don't have the lifestyle to glam out, but a friend goes to many charity events due to her husband's job.  She knows how to do it and looks great in photos. I say, great photos!

I believe we already have one somewhere.

Yeah, I go to a number of galas/formal events each year. They're pretty over the top. There are a number of dress shops in town that make you give your name and event to make sure that no one else attending will have the same dress.
It's serious business, lol.

I know the discussion has moved on, but wanted to give a semi-mustachian tip here:
If you have Nordic ancestors, a national costume will be considered ok for every type of gala, wedding, etc. The initial cost is steep, about 1500-4000 on the second hand market (depending on the geographical area your family is from, amount of silver, and complexity of the embroidery. You can reduce the cost by doing some of the work yourself.) But if you use it a few times a year for the rest of your life, it pays off in the end. I have two: one inherited from my grandmother, that my oldest kid currently uses, and one that was made and gifted to me from all my aunts and uncles for my confirmation, that my youngest is currently using. That was the one I got married in. We have also bought a gakti to celebrate the girls' native ancestry, but that was only a few hundred bucks. The best part of the national costume is that you never have to think about what to wear for those kind of events again in your life.

Some examples: https://www.google.com/search?q=bunad&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju6M2gkNbjAhVZAxAIHfc1BswQ_AUIESgB&biw=1920&bih=981

Okay...
Super random, but yes, I am actually Nordic...
But yeah, where I live, Nordic national costumes would not be appropriate for galas.

Cool - do you know which area(s)?

If the queen can use hers for galas in the US, so can you. But if it is not your cup of tea, or you like getting glamourous gala dresses every so often - you go girl! I just love the ease of never having to wonder about what to wear.

And the Nordic costumes are gorgeous!   A good friend's mom came to Canada from Norway in her mid-teens years.  When she first arrived she wore her long blonde hair in a crown of braids on top of her head.  Perhaps this was a traditional hair style?  I saw the old black and white photo and she was so beautiful.

Yes! I noticed that there were different styles when clicking on the website. I wonder if the different styles are from different regions or have different meanings...

I do like the idea of "affordable" glamour for MMM. Basically really nice products not a big price. For me growing up that was using noxema for my face. Now I love my cetaphil spf 15 face lotion and use it every day. In the summer I love the avenno spf lotion that is zinc versus chemical-based for my face (I'd have to look up the name). Another thing I like, is getting a tiny tub of cocoa butter vaseline. I use it on my lips and it lasts a long time.

Different regions. Getting a costume from a region you have no ties to is a big faux pas. I would really like DH to get one, but considering this is his local alternative, it will probably not happen: (https://bunadrosen.imgix.net/Herrebunader/Romsdal/Romsdal_herrebunad_guttebunad_01.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&crop=focalpoint&fit=crop&fp-x=0.5&fp-y=0.5&h=292&imgixParams=&q=90&w=300&s=e6caa423bf016e3443f3eeb95c38117a)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Candace on July 28, 2019, 09:48:00 AM
I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, or whether it's helpful to add or not... but I simply wanted to say in a general sense that the #metoo movement opened my eyes quite a bit and made me think about my own behavior, and the behavior of those around me, much more.

I am a different man today than I was in the past, and it is due to the many women who have been brave enough to speak openly and publicly about things that are embarrassing, uncomfortable and often painful.

I only add this because I want the women in this thread to know that you're not simply yelling into a void.  Many men are hearing what you're saying.  You may not always know it, and you may not hear them acknowledge it (often times because we aren't certain what to say)... but it is making a difference (at least in some of us).

@MrDelane:

Thank you. This means a lot.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pachnik on July 28, 2019, 09:54:54 AM
I'm not sure if this is on topic or not, or whether it's helpful to add or not... but I simply wanted to say in a general sense that the #metoo movement opened my eyes quite a bit and made me think about my own behavior, and the behavior of those around me, much more.

I am a different man today than I was in the past, and it is due to the many women who have been brave enough to speak openly and publicly about things that are embarrassing, uncomfortable and often painful.

I only add this because I want the women in this thread to know that you're not simply yelling into a void.  Many men are hearing what you're saying.  You may not always know it, and you may not hear them acknowledge it (often times because we aren't certain what to say)... but it is making a difference (at least in some of us).

@MrDelane:

Thank you. This means a lot.

Yes, thanks very much.   
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 28, 2019, 10:06:26 AM
Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because youíre right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 28, 2019, 10:08:06 AM
Mr. Delane, thank you. It's something I'd prefer not dwelling on too much. Two of the worst stories I personally know of (a friend being sexually assaulted as a teen by an adult, mother told her to never tell anyone, and a friend's teen daughter being raped by a family member), neither neither shared the story during me too. Some things still too painful to be shared publically.   

Gaja that is really interesting. I guess it would be like a Scottish man wearing a kilt from another Crest/family. I actually like the younger man nordic outfit (could do without the hat!)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Malcat on July 28, 2019, 10:37:25 AM

Okay...
Super random, but yes, I am actually Nordic...
But yeah, where I live, Nordic national costumes would not be appropriate for galas.

Cool - do you know which area(s)?

If the queen can use hers for galas in the US, so can you. But if it is not your cup of tea, or you like getting glamourous gala dresses every so often - you go girl! I just love the ease of never having to wonder about what to wear.
[/quote]

I should restate that: formal cultural clothing would be totally acceptable at the galas I attend if worn by people from that culture. It could be seen as odd for a born and raised Canadian to wear the cultural dress of their parents' origin country to a formal event, although, that would depend on the culture and how connected they are to that cultural community.

I don't even speak Danish, so I would definitely get some side eye for showing up in traditional clothing.

So I'll stick with my sequins, they're shiny :)

[Just gonna totally side step the whole "does street harrassment actually even exist?" convo because...well...gross...]
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 28, 2019, 01:35:08 PM
Soo, you are saying based on your experience, that you have experienced a lot of sexual harrassment/questionable behavior from the opposite sex, but all the women you know have not.
That seems - improbable. 

I do believe the amount of harrassment has decreased from when I was young (80's and 90's). Me too HAS had a salutary effect. The acceptability of catcalling, etc varies by location. For example I would predict that Vancouver would have less of it (my stereotype of Canadians?) than Chicago for example when I was a young adult.

I was thinking this too.  a general decrease of it in society.   But I definitely did experience it as a young and early middle-age woman.   

I would agree on that too. As someone who is almost 60 and lived in Vancouver BC on and off for 40 years.  I do remember that catcalling was something I saw here often in the 80's.

I can't find it nowadays in Vancouver even if someone paid me cash to find it. I really can't, I've looked, I've listened and I can't find any, though of course I'm sure it still happens to some degree. My girlfriends haven't told me of any incidents, neither my daughter or close female friends either, and I can't see any with my eyes or hear it with my ears.
My conclusion is that in Vancouver BC in this time, it's really not that bad. And perhaps there's some jumping on the 'internet bandwagon' happens from time to time.

* actually now I rack my brains about this, I can remember an incident when an old girlfriend went on a greyhound bus trip and a guy took his penis out and flashed her.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 28, 2019, 01:41:49 PM
Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because youíre right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 28, 2019, 01:50:32 PM
Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because youíre right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.


Pudding, my opinion on things I have very little lived experience with is not as valid as the opinion of someone who does. My opinion on whether racism is an every day occurrence for black people is not the equivalent of someone who has gone through life as a black person. Opinions are like assholes. But some opinions are more informed than others.

The one thing I have not seen you say in all of your denial is this: that you have asked the women in your life about this. Go ask ten women you know whether street harassment and unwanted sexual comments are a thing. Ask younger ones, middle aged, older ones. Ask them to think about it and their experiences. And donít just ask them and get a five second answer from them. Because frankly, it happens so often for so many of us that we push it out of our minds and try not to think about it too much. Ask them to think about it, and then tell you about it.

If you have already done this, it sure doesnít show in anything you have said here.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 28, 2019, 02:14:05 PM
Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because youíre right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.

So you opinion on something experienced by other people is supposed to be given equal consideration and weight as the opinions of those people?  Especially when it is an "opinion", on whether those things actually happen?  Sorry, but no.  First, whether something happens or not is not an opinion, because it is not a subjective thing.  Second, now being personally witness to something in no way contributes to a conversation in whether it happens, and that's even more true when the "something" is, basically by definition, not something that would happen to the non-witness, or to people in his close company.

"This happens, and it has happened to me", is NOT an opinion.  It is a statement of fact.

About a year ago, Vancouver launched a street harrassment reporting hotline.  Strange in a place with no street harrassment, no?
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/new-street-harassment-reporting-tool-launches-in-vancouver-1.3989883 (https://bc.ctvnews.ca/new-street-harassment-reporting-tool-launches-in-vancouver-1.3989883)

Shut.  Up. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 29, 2019, 09:38:06 AM
Adding my thanks, @MrDelane . It can be so disheartening, not to mention infuriating, when you feel like there is literally no way to get some men to hear you, no matter how many different ways you try to explain it. It is great to hear that at least some men are listening, because youíre right, the ones we seem to hear from loudest are those who are dismissive, or even outright hostile.

I hear you loud and clear, I just don't agree with what your saying. I have my own opinion which is different from yours, which is OK.. it's my right to have my own opinion and respect that you have yours that is different and even quite contradictory to mine.

So you opinion on something experienced by other people is supposed to be given equal consideration and weight as the opinions of those people?  Especially when it is an "opinion", on whether those things actually happen?  Sorry, but no.  First, whether something happens or not is not an opinion, because it is not a subjective thing.  Second, now being personally witness to something in no way contributes to a conversation in whether it happens, and that's even more true when the "something" is, basically by definition, not something that would happen to the non-witness, or to people in his close company.

"This happens, and it has happened to me", is NOT an opinion.  It is a statement of fact.

About a year ago, Vancouver launched a street harrassment reporting hotline.  Strange in a place with no street harrassment, no?
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/new-street-harassment-reporting-tool-launches-in-vancouver-1.3989883 (https://bc.ctvnews.ca/new-street-harassment-reporting-tool-launches-in-vancouver-1.3989883)

Shut.  Up.


Yesterday I was at an event where there were many people interacting, pretty much an equal number of adult men and women.

Everyone looked happy, I didn't see any harassment and from what I could see all was respectful. I walked around the city as I like to do for at least an hour, and again I didn't see one instance of cat calling or harassment, and it's summer time, fashions have become 'different' one thing that's in fashion now is to wear cut off jeans shorts that are cut really short and as my massage therapist friend noted "they reveal the gluteal fold" I would think making them prime targets for the hords of evil cat calling males waiting in the shadows. Maybe the sun kept them home, maybe it was the city of Vancouver's programme to reduce cat calling that made them think twice, who knows. 

I ended up having an interesting conversation with a women who I'd met briefly a few weeks ago. She told me about a guy she'd been dating and how he could only 'perform' once a day yet was only in his early 40's and younger than her and she wondered if stress was behind it, and asked me if I have a stressful life. I thought it was a lot of information to hear from someone I'd only known for about 15 minutes. But it was fun and light hearted so I went along with it.

She went on to tell me that she finds Vancouver 'weird' and conversations with her girlfriends are often about how men here won't approach them. She then asked me if I (as a man I guess) had an explanation as to why that is.

I told her I don't know, and that many men I know say the same thing, that Vancouver is a 'weird' place. It is a weird place, you can stand on the street corner and smoke crack, sit on the floor in the middle of the daytime on a main street in the centre of the city and shoot up heroin and no one will stop you or call the cops, camp under a tarp in the middle of the sidewalk and sell stolen stuff.   Yet you go to the beach and your not allowed to drink a beer or smoke a cigarette and it's rigorously enforced, and it closes at 10pm.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 29, 2019, 09:54:18 AM
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Davnasty on July 29, 2019, 10:23:05 AM
Everyone looked happy, I didn't see any harassment and from what I could see all was respectful. I walked around the city as I like to do for at least an hour, and again I didn't see one instance of cat calling or harassment

It seems the main point you've been trying to address here is the extent to which public harassment occurs. I actually think that's a reasonable question to consider when we don't have hard data (that I know of) to answer that question. It's perfectly normal for someone who has experienced more harassment than what is typical to think it's more common than it really is and for someone who has experienced less to underestimate it's prevalence. This makes it likely that within certain subgroups or regions we have skewed perceptions of reality.

But I would recommend leaving out examples like the one I quoted above. This is just asinine and makes it tough to take you seriously.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on July 29, 2019, 11:29:44 AM
I'm not sure why I'm feeding into this (and I apologize if I'm simply prolonging the discussion here).  But for the sake of anyone who is reading along, here is some actual data collected in Vancouver: (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/599f30fd49fc2b5aee21e7f7/t/5cac0d9bec212d4e3f946690/1554779552784/Creep+Off+Report+FINAL+EDITS.pdf)

Highlights:  in a 2 month period (62 days) there were 115 reports of harassment received through the pilot program.  Of those, 92% were of a 'sexual, sexist or cat-calling' nature.

On top of that it's important to keep in mind 2 things:
1. Only a fraction of the people in the city were aware of the reporting tool used to gather the data.
2. Sexual harassment is one of the most underreported crimes.

With those things in mind, this short term pilot study still received 1.85+ reports a day - and it is obviously safe to assume the real number is much higher.

Here is another site with a map showing reported harassment in public spaces:
https://vancouver.ihollaback.org/

So yes, it does occur in Vancouver (as it does everywhere) - regardless of whether or not any specific individual has personally experienced or witnessed it.
This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact. It is always important to remember that the plural of anecdote is not data.


EDITED TO ADD:
A few comments from women who live in Vancouver:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ORjsJ_2anc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDiiq3sYTXg

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: honeybbq on July 29, 2019, 11:35:43 AM
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on July 29, 2019, 11:50:08 AM
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 29, 2019, 11:56:48 AM
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have. 

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on July 29, 2019, 12:07:55 PM
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 29, 2019, 02:36:33 PM
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.

There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 29, 2019, 02:46:48 PM
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.



There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

Are you fucking serious?  Female street harassment (WHICH YOUR CITY HAD AN ACTUAL PROGRAM TO TRACK AND ADDRESS, a fact that has repeatedly been posted and which you continue to ignore) is like unicorns?  Do you not see how fucked up that is?  If you told someone you were mugged and they said they'd never been mugged, and none of their friends, even those with very fat wallets, had ever mentioned being mugged, so mugging was clearly like asking them to believe in leprechauns, would you not see some serious insult and condescension in that? 

No wonder your daughter wouldn't share these stories with you, if she has them.  You'd just tell her that being harassed on the street is like claiming to see bigfoot.  You are calling our reported experiences--experiences heavily documented in myriad ways (and again, YOUR CITY even created a program to address these things that supposedly never happen) fiction.  Like crazy, made up creatures. 

I am utterly astounded.  And for the other men reading, if you ever doubted that when women share stories of what happens to them, they often face absolutely vile treatment, to the point that they are basically called liars (our stories, remember, are like asking someone to believe in mythical creatures!), read this, and use it to help you be a better ally.  Because with gems like Pudding in the world, we NEED allies. 

It's absolutely disgusting.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 29, 2019, 02:50:16 PM
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.



There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

Are you fucking serious?  Female street harassment (WHICH YOUR CITY HAD AN ACTUAL PROGRAM TO TRACK AND ADDRESS, a fact that has repeatedly been posted and which you continue to ignore) is like unicorns?  Do you not see how fucked up that is?  If you told someone you were mugged and they said they'd never been mugged, and none of their friends, even those with very fat wallets, had ever mentioned being mugged, so mugging was clearly like asking them to believe in leprechauns, would you not see some serious insult and condescension in that? 

No wonder your daughter wouldn't share these stories with you, if she has them.  You'd just tell her that being harassed on the street is like claiming to see bigfoot.  You are calling our reported experiences--experiences heavily documented in myriad ways (and again, YOUR CITY even created a program to address these things that supposedly never happen) fiction.  Like crazy, made up creatures. 

I am utterly astounded.  And for the other men reading, if you ever doubted that when women share stories of what happens to them, they often face absolutely vile treatment, to the point that they are basically called liars (our stories, remember, are like asking someone to believe in mythical creatures!), read this, and use it to help you be a better ally.  Because with gems like Pudding in the world, we NEED allies. 

It's absolutely disgusting.

It it because I've got a ... ya know, small thingy or something like that?

MOD EDIT: I don't see anyone referencing your genitalia. Please try to remain respectful and genuine in your discussions. Cheers!
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 29, 2019, 02:56:18 PM
Vinallelle, If I had a nickel for every guy I saw on public media who was bothered by, or questioned people's me too stories, maybe I would no longer need to be on MMM.
Short answer. I don't care what Pudding thinks or believes.  It doesn't actually change the facts. He's with the people who believe the moon landing was faked, or that vaccinations are harmful or even that the holocaust was greatly exaggerated. He's entitled to his beliefs no matter how offensive or misguided they are, unless his beliefs directly harm me.    I'm 50 years old. I've been around guys like Pudding enough in my lifetime, I seriously don't gaf what they think.

For everyone else, an awful lot of unicorns and bigfoots in Vancouver it seems. 

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/sexual-assault-only-violent-crime-still-rising-in-vancouver-stats-say
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on July 29, 2019, 03:10:56 PM
I have been following this thread with increasing astonishment. I just canít understand someoneís inability to consider someone elseís views, incorporate the input of thousand or even millions of other people into oneís own world view, and the shocking dismissal of a myriad of evidence because it doesnít align with oneís personal experience as someone who will never personally experience the topic at hand.

At lunch today my coworker (minority) shared her experience of a flight attendant asking she prove her citizenship on a flight back to the US while handing out immigration forms. My role as a white person was to listen and empathize (while I canít personally understand), and show my support at the unfairness of her experience.
I would never presume to tell her that what she experienced didnít happen or wasnít legit or was like Bigfoot because I had never seen that happen to anyone else while I was flying back to the states.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 29, 2019, 04:52:06 PM
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.



There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

Are you fucking serious?  Female street harassment (WHICH YOUR CITY HAD AN ACTUAL PROGRAM TO TRACK AND ADDRESS, a fact that has repeatedly been posted and which you continue to ignore) is like unicorns?  Do you not see how fucked up that is?  If you told someone you were mugged and they said they'd never been mugged, and none of their friends, even those with very fat wallets, had ever mentioned being mugged, so mugging was clearly like asking them to believe in leprechauns, would you not see some serious insult and condescension in that? 

No wonder your daughter wouldn't share these stories with you, if she has them.  You'd just tell her that being harassed on the street is like claiming to see bigfoot.  You are calling our reported experiences--experiences heavily documented in myriad ways (and again, YOUR CITY even created a program to address these things that supposedly never happen) fiction.  Like crazy, made up creatures. 

I am utterly astounded.  And for the other men reading, if you ever doubted that when women share stories of what happens to them, they often face absolutely vile treatment, to the point that they are basically called liars (our stories, remember, are like asking someone to believe in mythical creatures!), read this, and use it to help you be a better ally.  Because with gems like Pudding in the world, we NEED allies. 

It's absolutely disgusting.


It it because I've got a ... ya know, small thingy or something like that?

By "thingy", if you mean "heart" or "brain", then perhaps, yes. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: joleran on July 29, 2019, 07:02:40 PM
Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling, most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on July 29, 2019, 07:11:13 PM
Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling

Nope.  What would make you think you saw everything that occurred? From the video:
(https://imgix.bustle.com/lovelace/uploads/125/f41d5420-4353-0132-414b-0ebc4eccb42f.png?w=349&fit=max&auto=format&q=70&dpr=2)

Quote
.... most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

It's not up to anyone to make the call between what is or is not innocuous or between 'unwanted attention' and harassment, unless they are the subject.

If/when someone says they feel harassed we should believe them.  Period.


EDITED TO ADD:
For perspective, another thing to keep in mind is that, in regard to the opposite sex, it is often said that men's biggest fear is that a woman will laugh at them.  Women's biggest fear is that a man will kill them.

Try to view the 'innocuous/unwanted attention' through that lens.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Fru-Gal on July 29, 2019, 07:20:21 PM
Down the rabbit hole we go... someone argues she has "large assets on display" and I click the vid to find a normal looking woman with my body type wearing a black crewneck T-shirt that fits her, black jeans and sneakers -- exactly how I dress comfortably to walk through NYC. Lord. I have been doing so well on my news fast. Please Lord help me to find peace amid the trolls.

If you read the wonderful "Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books" by Iranian author and professor Azar Nafisi, you'll understand that policing women's bodies never ends. As extremism descends on Tehran, she describes how girls -- completely covered head to toe per the new religious rules -- were *still* castigated for things like visible wrists (deemed too tempting for men) or eating apples provocatively.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 29, 2019, 07:49:12 PM
Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling, most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

Other men:

This, right here, is why women get so fucking angry.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Davnasty on July 29, 2019, 08:05:19 PM
Down the rabbit hole we go... someone argues she has "large assets on display" and I click the vid to find a normal looking woman with my body type wearing a black crewneck T-shirt that fits her, black jeans and sneakers -- exactly how I dress comfortably to walk through NYC. Lord. I have been doing so well on my news fast. Please Lord help me to find peace amid the trolls.

If you read the wonderful "Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books" by Iranian author and professor Azar Nafisi, you'll understand that policing women's bodies never ends. As extremism descends on Tehran, she describes how girls -- completely covered head to toe per the new religious rules -- were *still* castigated for things like visible wrists (deemed too tempting for men) or eating apples provocatively.

Wow. Ya, after reading that comment I was actually thinking "it's true, we don't want to be so sensitive that we can't talk to strangers." But then I watched the video and none of those interactions were ok. This is the verbal equivalent of grabbing someone as they walk by.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 29, 2019, 08:11:06 PM
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassment can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, it's not. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 29, 2019, 08:16:14 PM
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassement can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, just no. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

And itís not just tedious. It gets to you. It makes you feel watched, on display, vulnerable, self-conscious, nervous. It makes you start to look at every guy with apprehension: is he gonna do it, too? How bad is it gonna be this time? There have been times in my life when Iíve gone through periods of not wanting to leave the house, because I started to dread the inevitability of this shit.

Do NOT underplay this until you have has the experience.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on July 29, 2019, 08:44:19 PM
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassement can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, just no. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

And itís not just tedious. It gets to you. It makes you feel watched, on display, vulnerable, self-conscious, nervous. It makes you start to look at every guy with apprehension: is he gonna do it, too? How bad is it gonna be this time? There have been times in my life when Iíve gone through periods of not wanting to leave the house, because I started to dread the inevitability of this shit.

Do NOT underplay this until you have has the experience.

Kris, sorry to hear about your experiences.
Maybe think about moving to Vancouver, cat calling happens way way less than New York.

In fact compared to the video of the women's experience walking through New York I'd say in Vancouver Canada it's miniscule in comparison, though of course like all crimes and vile behaviour it does still happen here too.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Cannot Wait! on July 29, 2019, 09:46:06 PM
I had a fun experience recently trying to explain to a man (Z) that he needed to respect the #metoo movement.  He seemed to think it was harmless to kiss and hug a person to show his admiration for them.  He turned to our mutual (male) friend X as an example saying that when he sees X, he is so happy that he hugs him and gives him a kiss on the forehead. I asked X if he liked getting kissed by Z.  He bashfully said he did not. This was astounding news to Z!  He was completely baffled that someone would not want to be greeted this way. 
I suggested that he simply had to ask first before putting his lips on someone,  male or female.
He maintained that he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing because he was just showing how much he liked the person.
Finally I told him not to do or say anything that he would not want a cell mate in prison to do to him.  ;)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: UnleashHell on July 30, 2019, 04:58:19 AM


In fact compared to the video of the women's experience walking through New York I'd say in Vancouver Canada it's miniscule in comparison, though of course like all crimes and vile behaviour it does still happen here too.

it probably happens more in New york. Thats because the population is about 15 times larger in New York than Vancouver.
I've never seen it happen in my subdivision - that doesn't mean that behavior does not exist.
If you move to a 500 acre farm in montana it would probably not happen at all.

That doesn't mean that its any less real and that it doesn't happen.

Your argument is, at best, one of an ignorant dumbass and you embarrass yourself by using it - and sadly your tunnel vision of this issue also reflect badly on those of us males who do give a shit about it.

When it happens it needs to be pointed out as inappropriate because quite obviously its being ignored by those that choose not to believe that its a problem.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Hula Hoop on July 30, 2019, 06:10:21 AM
I had a fun experience recently trying to explain to a man (Z) that he needed to respect the #metoo movement.  He seemed to think it was harmless to kiss and hug a person to show his admiration for them.  He turned to our mutual (male) friend X as an example saying that when he sees X, he is so happy that he hugs him and gives him a kiss on the forehead. I asked X if he liked getting kissed by Z.  He bashfully said he did not. This was astounding news to Z!  He was completely baffled that someone would not want to be greeted this way. 
I suggested that he simply had to ask first before putting his lips on someone,  male or female.
He maintained that he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing because he was just showing how much he liked the person.
Finally I told him not to do or say anything that he would not want a cell mate in prison to do to him.  ;)

This depends a lot on cultural norms.  Here in Italy, everyone kisses eachother on both cheeks as a hello or goodbye greeting.  Both men and women do this and my husband does it with his male friends as a matter of course and no one bats an eyelid.  As an American it took a bit of getting used to but I now do it too with both male and female friends. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 30, 2019, 06:34:37 AM
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassement can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, just no. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

And itís not just tedious. It gets to you. It makes you feel watched, on display, vulnerable, self-conscious, nervous. It makes you start to look at every guy with apprehension: is he gonna do it, too? How bad is it gonna be this time? There have been times in my life when Iíve gone through periods of not wanting to leave the house, because I started to dread the inevitability of this shit.

Do NOT underplay this until you have has the experience.

Kris, sorry to hear about your experiences.
Maybe think about moving to Vancouver, cat calling happens way way less than New York.

In fact compared to the video of the women's experience walking through New York I'd say in Vancouver Canada it's miniscule in comparison, though of course like all crimes and vile behaviour it does still happen here too.

Pudding, your condescending BS is entirely inappropriate.

I wonít be responding to you again. Because if I said what I wanted to, Iíd be banned.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 30, 2019, 08:33:33 AM
I had a fun experience recently trying to explain to a man (Z) that he needed to respect the #metoo movement.  He seemed to think it was harmless to kiss and hug a person to show his admiration for them.  He turned to our mutual (male) friend X as an example saying that when he sees X, he is so happy that he hugs him and gives him a kiss on the forehead. I asked X if he liked getting kissed by Z.  He bashfully said he did not. This was astounding news to Z!  He was completely baffled that someone would not want to be greeted this way. 
I suggested that he simply had to ask first before putting his lips on someone,  male or female.
He maintained that he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing because he was just showing how much he liked the person.
Finally I told him not to do or say anything that he would not want a cell mate in prison to do to him.  ;)

I wouldn't call it respecting the meetoo movement, but respecting people's personal space. Sounds like this guy has a lot of Biden moments.

Don't get me wrong, there is one side of my family who is Greek, and they are a lot more physically demonstrative, and when I am around that side of the family we exchange hugs and kisses on the cheek (when in Rome, etc). There are other cultures like that. But- I don't do that to other people. Mainstream American culture it's not typical, and you should give people personal space unless you have their explicit permission in some way, such as they initiate it or you ask. Is it the worse thing ever? Probably not, but it is a faux pas and if you make a regular practice of it you are not respecting that person or their space. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on July 31, 2019, 07:38:55 AM
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have.
There is certainly some disagreement as to the appropriateness (or not) of complimenting a woman's appearance in a perfectly platonic way (see the discussion I was involved with).  While I think catcalling is inappropriate, it'd be interesting to interview some of the catcallers, to get some insight into their thought processes, why they do it, and why they think it's acceptable.

WRT pudding's experience, I think it's worth pointing out that his experiences do not discount those who have been harassed, and I'm curious to understand what causes such a difference between his (and his female acquaintances') experiences and the experiences of those here in this thread who have seen far more harassment.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 31, 2019, 08:52:43 AM
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have.
There is certainly some disagreement as to the appropriateness (or not) of complimenting a woman's appearance in a perfectly platonic way (see the discussion I was involved with).  While I think catcalling is inappropriate, it'd be interesting to interview some of the catcallers, to get some insight into their thought processes, why they do it, and why they think it's acceptable.

WRT pudding's experience, I think it's worth pointing out that his experiences do not discount those who have been harassed, and I'm curious to understand what causes such a difference between his (and his female acquaintances') experiences and the experiences of those here in this thread who have seen far more harassment.

How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condesending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 31, 2019, 09:35:24 AM
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have.
There is certainly some disagreement as to the appropriateness (or not) of complimenting a woman's appearance in a perfectly platonic way (see the discussion I was involved with).  While I think catcalling is inappropriate, it'd be interesting to interview some of the catcallers, to get some insight into their thought processes, why they do it, and why they think it's acceptable.

WRT pudding's experience, I think it's worth pointing out that his experiences do not discount those who have been harassed, and I'm curious to understand what causes such a difference between his (and his female acquaintances') experiences and the experiences of those here in this thread who have seen far more harassment.

Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

As far as what is appropriate or not commenting on personal appearance. Most guys seem to get what is appropriate or not, and others do not. If you are one of the clueless types, and some woman responds in a way to indicate they do not appreciate it, that is feedback to not do that again.

As far as not knowing, yes there are different norms between strangers, acquaintances, and friends and the various situations you are in. There is no way to spell out every contingency it is called common sense.
One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on July 31, 2019, 11:11:41 AM
How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condescending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?


Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

...

One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
I'm curious, because I find it important to understand a problem, and its root causes, before working to fix it.  That applies whether it's a technical problem at work, our family's finances, a misbehaving kid, economics, homelessness, or men catcalling on the street.  Without that understanding, efforts to fix the problem can be (and often are) misdirected or even counterproductive.

I went back and re-read pudding's comment about unicorns and Bigfoot, and other of his comments.  Yeah, some of his comments were out of line, but I get the feeling that the reason he's having trouble accepting the degree of harassment claimed isn't because he's sexist, but because he hasn't seen any evidence in his location, even among his female friends who presumably would be the most likely targets of such behavior.

I don't know enough to takes sides on how much sexual harassment happens, but it seems like there is a lot of "here's why you don't see it (you're male, you're in denial, nobody is going to tell you, etc)"  All of which are valid.  But isn't it also possible that Vancouver doesn't have as big of a sexual harassment problem as other locations, and that unicorns and Bigfoot spend more of their time in NYC than Vancouver?

Just a few weeks ago, we had a party that included a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years. When I arrived, I noticed that he looked...good, looked healthy (I couldn't put my finger on what exactly), and made a comment to that effect.  Turns out he's lost 90 lbs over the last several months, and it led to a very normal, comfortable conversation about it.  I would be terrified to make a similar comment to a woman.  Of course, context is everything--the degree of the relationship, the social setting, the tone of voice, etc.  But the risk of misinterpretation and offense is way too high.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 31, 2019, 11:26:09 AM
How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condescending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?


Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

...

One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
I'm curious, because I find it important to understand a problem, and its root causes, before working to fix it.  That applies whether it's a technical problem at work, our family's finances, a misbehaving kid, economics, homelessness, or men catcalling on the street.  Without that understanding, efforts to fix the problem can be (and often are) misdirected or even counterproductive.

I went back and re-read pudding's comment about unicorns and Bigfoot, and other of his comments.  Yeah, some of his comments were out of line, but I get the feeling that the reason he's having trouble accepting the degree of harassment claimed isn't because he's sexist, but because he hasn't seen any evidence in his location, even among his female friends who presumably would be the most likely targets of such behavior.

I don't know enough to takes sides on how much sexual harassment happens, but it seems like there is a lot of "here's why you don't see it (you're male, you're in denial, nobody is going to tell you, etc)"  All of which are valid.  But isn't it also possible that Vancouver doesn't have as big of a sexual harassment problem as other locations, and that unicorns and Bigfoot spend more of their time in NYC than Vancouver?

Just a few weeks ago, we had a party that included a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years. When I arrived, I noticed that he looked...good, looked healthy (I couldn't put my finger on what exactly), and made a comment to that effect.  Turns out he's lost 90 lbs over the last several months, and it led to a very normal, comfortable conversation about it.  I would be terrified to make a similar comment to a woman.  Of course, context is everything--the degree of the relationship, the social setting, the tone of voice, etc.  But the risk of misinterpretation and offense is way too high.

Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 31, 2019, 11:55:37 AM
Zoo,  most likely a small percent of guys are responsible for the majority of problems.  As far as catcallers go I'm guessing they do it because they feel like it? You are free to make your own video interviewing these folks to get their side. 

I think there is also a subset of guys who do not intend offense, who maybe are not particularly good at reading people, in particular females? 

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?

If you are still finding this extremely perplexing they are plenty of sexual harassment awareness and training videos out there on the internet.
No where does it say that normal typical interactions between between say coworkers or acquaintinces is somehow illegal or fraught to the degree you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on July 31, 2019, 11:56:18 AM
I just donít understand the reluctance to open your mind to an idea that you havenít personally witnessed. We are all pretty good about learning from others and benefiting from the efforts of the group. ďStanding on the shoulders of giantsĒ kind of idea. Why is it okay to believe scientists when they say the ice caps are melting without traveling to visit them yourself or believing that lots of analysis says that a 4% withdrawal rate is likely a solid idea or that vaccines are effective without getting a PhD in biochemistry and researching them yourself, and not accepting that many many many women have experienced harassement just because you didnít witness it yourself? Especially when many people have provided multiple reasons why a man would be unlikely to witness it himself? I just donít understand this blind spot.

The blind spot and the fact that we have spent dozens of posts talking about this is offensive and makes me (us) weary. Why should the burden be on me/us to convince you of reality? Not only do we have to deal with this threat for most of our lives but in addition we have the added burden of justifying our experience to the same group of people causing the harassment in the first place?

Note: I am not accusing any individual here or harassment but women are trained from an early age to judge men on a threat scale, so while men are certainly not all alike, there are enough bad actors out there that we need to be cautious at all times.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: spartana on July 31, 2019, 12:16:09 PM
How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condescending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?


Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

...

One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
I'm curious, because I find it important to understand a problem, and its root causes, before working to fix it.  That applies whether it's a technical problem at work, our family's finances, a misbehaving kid, economics, homelessness, or men catcalling on the street.  Without that understanding, efforts to fix the problem can be (and often are) misdirected or even counterproductive.

I went back and re-read pudding's comment about unicorns and Bigfoot, and other of his comments.  Yeah, some of his comments were out of line, but I get the feeling that the reason he's having trouble accepting the degree of harassment claimed isn't because he's sexist, but because he hasn't seen any evidence in his location, even among his female friends who presumably would be the most likely targets of such behavior.

I don't know enough to takes sides on how much sexual harassment happens, but it seems like there is a lot of "here's why you don't see it (you're male, you're in denial, nobody is going to tell you, etc)"  All of which are valid.  But isn't it also possible that Vancouver doesn't have as big of a sexual harassment problem as other locations, and that unicorns and Bigfoot spend more of their time in NYC than Vancouver?

Just a few weeks ago, we had a party that included a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years. When I arrived, I noticed that he looked...good, looked healthy (I couldn't put my finger on what exactly), and made a comment to that effect.  Turns out he's lost 90 lbs over the last several months, and it led to a very normal, comfortable conversation about it.  I would be terrified to make a similar comment to a woman.  Of course, context is everything--the degree of the relationship, the social setting, the tone of voice, etc.  But the risk of misinterpretation and offense is way too high.
There's a big difference between telling a male or female friend they're looking good compared to a variety of random strange men telling "you are pretty, smile beautiful, looking hot" following along side you or worse almost everytime you are out walking around - often every.single.day.for years! Especially when that person may outweigh you by 100 lbs or be in a group of men doing it. I always tell guys they should  imagine they are a new inmate walking by all the cells past a bunch of hooting 250 lb inmates telling you what a pretty boy you are and how you should smile more. Not flattering but scary. Now imagine how your wife, daughter or sister would feel when a random stranger guy follows them around saying those things.

ETA: I'm not trying to say that men who make comments to strange women (or inappropriate comments to women they know) all have bad intentions. I don't think they do. But I hate it when people (male or female) dismiss someone's experience because they haven't seen or experienced it themself. I spent most of my teen and adult life working with all male crews (or with one or 2 other women aboard or in my unit) aboard ships or remote areas while in the military and civilian jobs - both very blue collar "rough" jobs where I spent 24/7 with them for months at a time. I was never catcalled or harassed sexually by my male co-workers (and I'm a fairly attractive straight woman) but I am not going to dismiss someone's (male or female) who experienced (or worse) while in the military on the job just because it never happened to me or anyone I know or I didn't see it.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: zolotiyeruki on July 31, 2019, 02:12:38 PM
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on July 31, 2019, 02:22:09 PM
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

Totally, as we saw with Kavanaugh, poor dear.
You are right Pudding, Zoo. it's the men who are the real victims here, with this epidemic of false accusations of sexual harassment. I'm glad someone is finally shining a light on this terrible social problem that is ruining so many men's lives.

I think you might want to stop talking to black people too as they might accuse you of racism.   
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on July 31, 2019, 02:25:42 PM
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.


You said the reason he's having trouble accepting that this is reality is because he hasn't seen it in his location.  I pointed out that proof of it occurring in his location has been posted and he's ignored that.  So it seems quite clear that his difficulty accepting this reality is not because he hasn't personally seen it. 

And I never implied you implied that this doesn't happen in Vancouver, so YOU are the one misrepresenting someone, not I.  If he needed proof it happens in his city, that was offered.  He still doesn't accept this reality.  If I say I don't believe anyone is ever mugged in my city and you post sources showing it does, and I still continue to say I don't believe it, it can no longer be reasonably argued that maybe it's just because I haven't seen it.  Clearly, there is a much bigger bias at play when I refuse to accept very solid evidence of that reality.  You said he hasn't seen "evidence" in his location.  That evidence was presented in this very thread.  So clearly, your explanation/excuse for his refusal to believe reality is incorrect.  That's what I was pointing out. 

And, to be very clear, I never said you don't believe these things happen in Vancouver, and frankly, I appreciate and apology for you saying I did, or an explanation of how you got that from my post, which was two lines in total and referenced pudding, not you in any way.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Davnasty on July 31, 2019, 03:02:21 PM
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

Totally, as we saw with Kavanaugh, poor dear.
You are right Pudding, Zoo. it's the men who are the real victims here, with this epidemic of false accusations of sexual harassment. I'm glad someone is finally shining a light on this terrible social problem that is ruining so many men's lives.

I think you might want to stop talking to black people too as they might accuse you of racism.

I've been reading along and disagreeing with most of what zolotiyeruki has said, but I don't think it's fair to discount this last point with sarcasm. False accusations may be uncommon but they can happen and they can be very damaging. When a public figure is accused the news spreads like wildfire and when an investigation clears their name it gets little attention, it's just not as exciting of a story. Not to mention, one's name can never be truly cleared as there will always be an association between the name and sexual misconduct. For the less public figures, being fired for an accusation is not unheard of. Sometimes it's easier, particularly for large companies, to just get rid of someone than figure out what really happened and tarnish their brand.

And I do understand the frustration when someone makes a bigger deal of false accusations than the real problem. Many do so in bad faith to muddy the conversation and minimize the real issue, but I don't think this was the intent here.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: desert_phoenix on July 31, 2019, 04:17:30 PM
On the topic of anecdotes I (male, early 30s) was meeting a female friend  for drinks after work one day a couple of years ago.

I arrived a few minutes early and was standing outside the bar when I noticed her about a block and a half away walking towards me.  It happened to be an inordinately quiet moment since the bar was a few blocks off a main thoroughfare.  In the less than three minutes it took for her to close the distance between us, three separate vehicles with male drivers slowed down to say things to her that I couldn't hear from where I was standing.  She is pretty mild mannered but let loose with an impressive string of profanity at each one. 

She arrived to greet me and noted the 5 block walk from where she parked, mentioned that 7 total guys had cat called her or asked if she wanted to get in, and then just walked past me into the bar.  It was like a random Tuesday evening, the sun had not even set, and it was clear from her tone that it was sort of just another day of being a woman in a city.

Cat calling is creepy and men should not do it, defend it, or play it down.  It is on men to help end this stuff.  Don't set examples for younger men that this is how to treat women, don't keep quiet if other guys are doing it around you, etc...  It is on all of us to build a better society for everyone.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on July 31, 2019, 04:31:23 PM
On the topic of anecdotes I (male, early 30s) was meeting a female friend  for drinks after work one day a couple of years ago.

I arrived a few minutes early and was standing outside the bar when I noticed her about a block and a half away walking towards me.  It happened to be an inordinately quiet moment since the bar was a few blocks off a main thoroughfare.  In the less than three minutes it took for her to close the distance between us, three separate vehicles with male drivers slowed down to say things to her that I couldn't hear from where I was standing.  She is pretty mild mannered but let loose with an impressive string of profanity at each one. 

She arrived to greet me and noted the 5 block walk from where she parked, mentioned that 7 total guys at cat called her or asked if she wanted to get in on the walk, and then just walked past me into the bar.  It was like a random Tuesday evening, the sun had not even set, and it was clear from her tone that it was sort of just another day of being a woman in a city.

Cat calling is creepy and men should not do it, defend it, or play it down.  It is on men to help end this stuff.  Don't set examples for younger men that this is how to treat women, don't keep quiet if other guys are doing it around you, etc...  It is on all of us to build a better society for everyone.
~clapping~
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on July 31, 2019, 06:55:40 PM
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

Why he has not seen it first hand is irrelevant to the discussion, other than as a curiosity or piece of trivia.

I have no personal experience, first or secondhand, seeing viruses, being mugged, climbing Everest or being denied service due to my religion, race or orientation... but I accept that all of those things have and do exist.

Why I haven't experienced it completely beside the point.
To deny the existence of any of those things would be irrational in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Quote
...there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended...

You say that as if it means that because there was no intent of harassment it means harassment did not occur.  Again, harassment is defined by the subject of the attention, not the intention of the person giving it.  If someone does not want attention, and the attention persists, that is harassment, and we should listen to them. Period. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on July 31, 2019, 06:59:57 PM
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

Why he has not seen it first hand is irrelevant to the discussion, other than as a curiosity or piece of trivia.

I have no personal experience, first or secondhand, seeing viruses, being mugged, climbing Everest or being denied service due to my religion, race or orientation... but I accept that all of those things have and do exist.

Why I haven't experienced it completely beside the point.
To deny the existence of any of those things would be irrational in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Quote
...there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended...

You say that as if it means that because there was no intent of harassment it means harassment did not occur.  Again, harassment is defined by the subject of the attention, not the intention of the person giving it.  If someone does not want attention, and the attention persists, that is harassment, and we should listen to them. Period.

Thank you, @MrDelane
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Fae on August 01, 2019, 06:40:44 AM
Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended,

Intent is a funny thing, just because you don't intend something doesn't make it any less real.

Last month I walked out to my car to go home from work and found a flat tire (front passenger side). Having just put on the spare and let down the jack, I stood up and was brushing the dirt off of my work clothes. At this point a coworker who was driving some parts over to our other building (~.5 mile away), stopped and came over to help. He was amazed, I mean amazed that I had changed my tire all by myself. How do I know he was amazed? He told me, multiple times. "How amazing it was I knew how to do, how impressive it was that I could do it by myself". I then went to put my flat tire in the trunk, so I could take it to the tire place to see if it could be repaired. He went "oh no, let me do that for you, tires are heavy" To which I replied" No thanks, I've got it" and tossed the tire in the trunk. This too was impressive and amazing.The next day at work, he stopped by my desk and went on and on about how amazing my being able to change a tire was.

Did my coworker intend to be sexist? No, I truly believe he didn't mean to be sexist and thought he was complimenting me.

Was my coworker being sexist? Hell yes. I can guarantee he would never say these things (and probably wouldn't have even stopped to help) any of the guys who work here.My changing a tire was only impressive and amazing because I am female.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on August 01, 2019, 06:54:25 AM
Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended,

Intent is a funny thing, just because you don't intend something doesn't make it any less real.

Last month I walked out to my car to go home from work and found a flat tire (front passenger side). Having just put on the spare and let down the jack, I stood up and was brushing the dirt off of my work clothes. At this point a coworker who was driving some parts over to our other building (~.5 mile away), stopped and came over to help. He was amazed, I mean amazed that I had changed my tire all by myself. How do I know he was amazed? He told me, multiple times. "How amazing it was I knew how to do, how impressive it was that I could do it by myself". I then went to put my flat tire in the trunk, so I could take it to the tire place to see if it could be repaired. He went "oh no, let me do that for you, tires are heavy" To which I replied" No thanks, I've got it" and tossed the tire in the trunk. This too was impressive and amazing.The next day at work, he stopped by my desk and went on and on about how amazing my being able to change a tire was.

Did my coworker intend to be sexist? No, I truly believe he didn't mean to be sexist and thought he was complimenting me.

Was my coworker being sexist? Hell yes. I can guarantee he would never say these things (and probably wouldn't have even stopped to help) any of the guys who work here.My changing a tire was only impressive and amazing because I am female.

Well I am impressed. I've never done it, and don't think my ex who is a guy has actually ever changed a tire. But yeah going on about it would be annoying, like giving a child a pat on the head or something. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Davnasty on August 01, 2019, 07:11:33 AM
Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended,

Intent is a funny thing, just because you don't intend something doesn't make it any less real.

Last month I walked out to my car to go home from work and found a flat tire (front passenger side). Having just put on the spare and let down the jack, I stood up and was brushing the dirt off of my work clothes. At this point a coworker who was driving some parts over to our other building (~.5 mile away), stopped and came over to help. He was amazed, I mean amazed that I had changed my tire all by myself. How do I know he was amazed? He told me, multiple times. "How amazing it was I knew how to do, how impressive it was that I could do it by myself". I then went to put my flat tire in the trunk, so I could take it to the tire place to see if it could be repaired. He went "oh no, let me do that for you, tires are heavy" To which I replied" No thanks, I've got it" and tossed the tire in the trunk. This too was impressive and amazing.The next day at work, he stopped by my desk and went on and on about how amazing my being able to change a tire was.

Did my coworker intend to be sexist? No, I truly believe he didn't mean to be sexist and thought he was complimenting me.

Was my coworker being sexist? Hell yes. I can guarantee he would never say these things (and probably wouldn't have even stopped to help) any of the guys who work here.My changing a tire was only impressive and amazing because I am female.
I think your example is different than the type of situation zolotiyeruki was getting at. In your scenario he had no intent to offend but it was his underlying sexist view that resulted in his actions. So there was no intent to offend but it was still offensive.

As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

ETA: Actually I guess he was referring specifically to compliments.

Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

But I would make the same point. To say that a well intended compliment makes a women uncomfortable and intent is irrelevant is fair. To say that well intended person is now guilty of sexual harassment seems like a stretch to me. Although it's also a stretch to suggest a misconstrued compliment could be devastating to a man's life.

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on August 01, 2019, 07:46:59 AM
As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

Yes, it is enough to call it harassment.
Harassment only requires that a person feel harassed.
Whether or not that feeling was intentional is a whole other topic, which could arguably leave us thinking the harassment is of a higher or lower level - but in either scenario it is still harassment.

Fae's example is absolutely perfect. The man probably didn't intent to be sexist, but that makes his statements no less sexist.  The man in the hypothetical elevator didn't mean to harass anyone, but that doesn't make his actions any less harassing.

Legally, harassment is apparently "generally defined as a course of conduct which annoys, threatens, intimidates, alarms, or puts a person in fear of their safety."  It says nothing about it being a course of conduct that intends to annoy, threaten, etc.  Harassment is defined by the person receiving the attention, not the intentions of anyone giving attention.

EDITED TO ADD:
I think another thing worth throwing out here is that 'harassment' can obviously have various levels of severity. Small talk in an elevator is not on the same level as sexually explicit comments to a stranger on a street, but that doesn't mean they can't both still be considered harassment (they are simply at different levels). I think people who mean no harm are uncomfortable and offended by the idea that they might be under the same umbrella as overt offenders... but it's not up to them, it's up to how they leave people feeling with their actions, regardless of intent.

I suppose as a society we need to reframe the question and stop asking "Was this action harassment?" and instead ask "Was this person left feeling harassed by this action?"

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:
As an analogy - harassment is like homocide.
We have manslaughter and murder, which take into account intent - but they are both considered 'homocide', and in either case the subject winds up dead.

Unfortunately the language surrounded harassment is not as well defined, and we don't have clear terms to parse out intention.  So the only way we can talk it about is in terms of the subject's reaction.  But I would say that much like murder vs manslaughter, the intention doesn't matter a whole lot to the victim.\\

EDITED FOR THE LAST TIME TO ADD:
And now I feel like I am mansplaining harassment to a thread filled with women... and if that is how this came across I am sincerely sorry.  It is not my intention, and please know that I only speak out like this because I feel too many men are quiet and feel it makes them look weak to speak up about these things.  Apologies if this is not my place.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on August 01, 2019, 08:05:44 AM
As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

Yes, it is enough to call it harassment.
Harassment only requires that a person feel harassed.
Whether or not that feeling was intentional is a whole other topic, which could arguably leave us thinking the harassment is of a higher or lower level - but in either scenario it is still harassment.

Fae's example is absolutely perfect. The man probably didn't intent to be sexist, but that makes his statements no less sexist.  The man in the hypothetical elevator didn't mean to harass anyone, but that doesn't make his actions any less harassing.

Legally, harassment is apparently "generally defined as a course of conduct which annoys, threatens, intimidates, alarms, or puts a person in fear of their safety."  It says nothing about it being a course of conduct that intends to annoy, threaten, etc.  Harassment is defined by the person receiving the attention, not the intentions of anyone giving attention.

EDITED TO ADD:
I think another thing worth throwing out here is that 'harassment' can obviously have various levels of severity. Small talk in an elevator is not on the same level as sexually explicit comments to a stranger on a street, but that doesn't mean they can't both still be considered harassment (they are simply at different levels). I think people who mean no harm are uncomfortable and offended by the idea that they might be under the same umbrella as overt offenders... but it's not up to them, it's up to how they leave people feeling with their actions, regardless of intent.

I suppose as a society we need to reframe the question and stop asking "Was this action harassment?" and instead ask "Was this person left feeling harassed by this action?"

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:
As an analogy - harassment is like homocide.
We have manslaughter and murder, which take into account intent - but they are both considered 'homocide', and in either case the subject winds up dead.

Unfortunately the language surrounded harassment is not as well defined, and we don't have clear terms to parse out intention.  So the only way we can talk it about is in terms of the subject's reaction.  But I would say that much like murder vs manslaughter, the intention doesn't matter a whole lot to the victim.\\

EDITED FOR THE LAST TIME TO ADD:
And now I feel like I am mansplaining harassment to a thread filled with women... and if that is how this came across I am sincerely sorry.  It is not my intention, and please know that I only speak out like this because I feel too many men are quiet and feel it makes them look weak to speak up about these things.  Apologies if this is not my place.

You're not mansplaining to us. You get that we get it. You're being an ally and an advocate. Thank you.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Davnasty on August 01, 2019, 08:33:18 AM
As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

Yes, it is enough to call it harassment.
Harassment only requires that a person feel harassed.
Whether or not that feeling was intentional is a whole other topic, which could arguably leave us thinking the harassment is of a higher or lower level - but in either scenario it is still harassment.

Fae's example is absolutely perfect. The man probably didn't intent to be sexist, but that makes his statements no less sexist.  The man in the hypothetical elevator didn't mean to harass anyone, but that doesn't make his actions any less harassing.

Legally, harassment is apparently "generally defined as a course of conduct which annoys, threatens, intimidates, alarms, or puts a person in fear of their safety."  It says nothing about it being a course of conduct that intends to annoy, threaten, etc.  Harassment is defined by the person receiving the attention, not the intentions of anyone giving attention.

So this makes sense, by the literal definition of harassment this person is harassing her in the elevator.

But let's take another example. A black man goes to a public space and sits on a bench near a woman. She feels fear for her safety due to her prejudice. By the literal definition he is guilty of harassment. At this point I am not disputing that conclusion, however I would ask if given this circumstance you would feel comfortable using the would harassment to describe his actions?

What I'm getting at here is that I think it's worth recognizing that the literal definition of something isn't necessarily the way it's used in conversation. If we use a strictly literal definition of harassment, does the word lose some of its meaning?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: partgypsy on August 01, 2019, 08:55:27 AM
Mr. Delane I appreciate your support, but what is missing is that it is considered sexual harassment say legally if it is something a "reasonable person" considers harassment. It is not purely subjective. For example a woman had a previous past terrible experience with a man wearing a cowboy hat. She gets in an elevator and someone gets in with a cowboy hat. She feels threatened. Even if she feels bad, it would not be considered harassment on that alone because it's what a reasonable person would consider harassment. I have to take training for my work. There are rules. The fact that it is "unwanted" is a key part of it. Also that it's a pattern. But it's not just because the woman or person "says so".

Every workplace has different rules here are VA's

Sexual harassment occurs when: (1) acceptance or rejection is required
(explicitly or implicitly) for continued employment; (2) acceptance or rejection of the
harassment by an individual impacts his/her treatment by the harasser; or (3) the
harassment unreasonably interferes with individualís work performance or creates an
intimidating hostile, or offensive working environment for the target of the harassment or
for observers. Sexual harassment can also include behaviors that are not overtly
sexual in nature, but that reflect disparaging attitudes based on sex or gender.
Sexual harassment behaviors can be grouped into three broad categories:
(1) gender harassment; (2) unwanted sexual attention of a sexual nature that is directed
toward a person; and (3) sexual coercion.
Gender harassment involves unwelcome behaviors that disparage or objectify
others based on their sex or gender. Examples include: (1) derogatory or
unprofessional terms related to sex or gender; (2) unwelcome sexual teasing, joking,
comments, or questions; (3) exposure to sexually oriented material (e.g., photos,
videos, or written material); and (4) exposure to sexually-oriented conversations.

Unwanted sexual attention includes unwelcome behaviors of a sexual nature
that are directed toward an individual. Examples include: (1) unwelcome invasion of
personal space (e.g., touching, crowding, leaning over); (2) unwelcome communications
of a sexual nature; and (3) unwelcome sexually suggestive looks or gestures (e.g.,
emails, phone calls, notes, text messages, social media contacts).

Sexual coercion occurs when an individual is pressured or forced to engage in
unwanted sexual behavior. Examples include: (1) offer of preferential treatment in the
workplace in exchange for sexual favors (tangible employment action); (2) pressure for
sexual favors; (3) pressure for dates; (4) stalking (e.g., unwanted physical or electronic
intrusion into oneís personal life); and (5) sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on August 01, 2019, 09:23:54 AM
Mr. Delane I appreciate your support, but what is missing is that it is considered sexual harassment say legally if it is something a "reasonable person" considers harassment. It is not purely subjective. For example a woman had a previous past terrible experience with a man wearing a cowboy hat. She gets in an elevator and someone gets in with a cowboy hat. She feels threatened. Even if she feels bad, it would not be considered harassment on that alone because it's what a reasonable person would consider harassment. I have to take training for my work. There are rules. The fact that it is "unwanted" is a key part of it. But it's not just because the woman or person "says so".

Totally fair point (though pedantically we could say that given her experience it is 'reasonable' that she feels threatened) - but I know the law doesn't take that into account, and there is no way we can know the past experience of those around us.  But that is partly the point (to me, anyhow).  Given that we do not know the past experience of those around us we should treat every interaction with respect and care (not that you were saying anything to the contrary, I'm rambling a bit here).

But I see what you're saying, and it's a fair point.
And yes, this is a messy gray area for a variety of reasons.

Again, I think this may be a limitation of the language that we use.  We seem to have one blunt blanket term for everything:  'harassment'
And much like it does not take into account the intent of the perpetrator, it also does not take into account the 'reasonableness' of the subject.
That term is used to cover situations where action was intended to elicit a response, where it was not intended to cause harm... situations which would call for legal action, and situations which are uncomfortable but do not cross the line into legal action.

But whether or not someone has a 'valid' reason for feeling harassed only seems to be an issue when it comes to legal recourse.  If someone tells me something I am doing makes them feel uncomfortable it seems clear that I should stop doing that thing.  If I continue doing that thing, I do it knowing full well it makes another person uncomfortable. I suppose I have the 'right' to do that, but we would probably all agree it makes me a somewhat callous and uncaring human being.

I don't know what the solution is - for the moment the best solution to me seems to be to give the benefit of the doubt to the subject, and to believe people when they tell us they feel harassed (again, not that you were saying the contrary). Whether or not the 'harasser' deserves any form of punishment is a whole other issue in my mind.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on August 01, 2019, 09:38:15 AM
So this makes sense, by the literal definition of harassment this person is harassing her in the elevator.

But let's take another example. A black man goes to a public space and sits on a bench near a woman. She feels fear for her safety due to her prejudice. By the literal definition he is guilty of harassment. At this point I am not disputing that conclusion, however I would ask if given this circumstance you would feel comfortable using the would harassment to describe his actions?

What I'm getting at here is that I think it's worth recognizing that the literal definition of something isn't necessarily the way it's used in conversation. If we use a strictly literal definition of harassment, does the word lose some of its meaning?

That's an interesting scenario and one that crosses over two massive issues we have in society - harassment and racism.
I don't know the answer to that, and to be honest (to me) it would depend on the particulars.

One thing is clear in your scenario - the woman is prejudiced and that is wrong.  Obviously.
But that doesn't mean it still can't also be a form of harassment. 

I'm not a woman, so I don't want to speak for women... but if I try to imagine myself as a woman, sitting on a bench by myself... it would all depend on the body language and surrounding context (regardless of the skin color of the man involved).  Are there other people around?  How busy is this 'public area'? Are there other benches near by that were open?  Does the man sit literally right next to me, when he could have sat on the other end of the bench?  How much of my personal space is he encroaching on?  Is this a situation where I can get up and move, or am I somewhere where I need to stay for some external reason (in a waiting room, for example)?

So, I have no idea.  My gut reaction is yes, she could be racist and it could still be harassment.

I suppose this goes back to partgypsy's point about 'reasonableness.'

I do think that this touches on something interesting.  Given that many women have spoken up about how harassment is a common occurrence in their lives, it is not unreasonable for them to be vigilant of it.  Take the race aspect out of your example, and I can easily see how a 'reasonable' woman could feel threatened by any man sitting next to her, uninvited, on a public bench (depending on the particulars, as I mentioned above).

If I were continually approached by unwelcomed strangers I would also be on edge at anyone who approached me uninvited.  It's easy to give people the benefit of the doubt when we're not used to having to deal with negative side of it (or at least, that has been my experience).

But, the truth is, I'm a man... and even though I am a minority, I've been privileged enough to live a rather easy life.  So I'm probably not the best person to speak on the intersection of racism and harassment. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: MrDelane on August 01, 2019, 09:39:40 AM
You're not mansplaining to us. You get that we get it. You're being an ally and an advocate. Thank you.

Thank you, Kris.
It's sometimes difficult to know when to speak and when to listen.

(It took me an unfortunately long time to learn that I still had a lot to learn)
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on August 01, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
Trying to understand, and even challenging assumptions, is not mansplaining.  You aren't acting as an authority on women's experiences, which is where the problems arise.

As for the line of what is and is not harassment, I think the "reasonable man" standard, while certainly imperfect, is decent.  A reasonable (wo)man won't feel harassed by a man sitting next to her on a bench, or entering an elevator with her. 

Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on August 01, 2019, 10:42:27 AM
At the end of the day I feel like a lot of this comes down to being a decent human being. Unfortunately we end up in the weeds trying to parse out behavior and coming up with textbook definitions where if somehow we could magically apply a Mr Rogers sort of definition about being a good neighbor we could avoid a lot of that.

I like what someone said above: if someone says what you are doing bothers them then the decent thing is to stop. Yes, ďitís a free country and I can be an asshole if I want toĒ, blah blah blah, but what is that serving you or anyone? You may not intend to be an asshole, but if that is how it is perceived, a reasonable person will take that into consideration and moderate behavior if it is a reasonable request. It may be unreasonable in the racism example above. It may be reasonable and the person doing it didnít intend that way but just needs a little feedback.

It does take strength if character to receive feedback about correcting your behavior and not taking offense or doubling down. Hell, I have a hard time turning off my emotions when my boss gives me feedback on what he thinks I need to do better, so I get it. We are all better off if we can be grown ups about it and keep open minds.

Iím probably asking for way too much here, arenít I?
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on August 01, 2019, 10:54:52 AM
At the end of the day I feel like a lot of this comes down to being a decent human being. Unfortunately we end up in the weeds trying to parse out behavior and coming up with textbook definitions where if somehow we could magically apply a Mr Rogers sort of definition about being a good neighbor we could avoid a lot of that.

I like what someone said above: if someone says what you are doing bothers them then the decent thing is to stop. Yes, ďitís a free country and I can be an asshole if I want toĒ, blah blah blah, but what is that serving you or anyone? You may not intend to be an asshole, but if that is how it is perceived, a reasonable person will take that into consideration and moderate behavior if it is a reasonable request. It may be unreasonable in the racism example above. It may be reasonable and the person doing it didnít intend that way but just needs a little feedback.

It does take strength if character to receive feedback about correcting your behavior and not taking offense or doubling down. Hell, I have a hard time turning off my emotions when my boss gives me feedback on what he thinks I need to do better, so I get it. We are all better off if we can be grown ups about it and keep open minds.

Iím probably asking for way too much here, arenít I?

Considering how many times women who try to be frank with men who are behaving badly are met with dismissive "It's just a joke"s or "Lighten up"s or "It's a compliment, jeez"es... or "Maybe you should learn to be less sensitive"s (including in this thread)...

Probably.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: ysette9 on August 01, 2019, 10:56:47 AM
Sigh
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Hula Hoop on August 01, 2019, 11:01:07 AM
I've always wondered what goes through the heads of all the street harassers.  The whole thing is so incredibly weird.  No matter how good looking I think a guy walking down the street is, I can't imagine making him uncomfortable by grabbing him or yelling something at him. I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

As an adult I often wondered if maybe they though I would actually have sex with them if they harassed me on the street. I can't imagine that every happening but could that be their motivation?  I think that there was a Sex and the City episode where Miranda actually asks a street harasser these questions.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: PoutineLover on August 01, 2019, 11:14:17 AM
I think I'll regret wading into this, but I find the topic fascinating. Some men seem to be willfully ignorant of the problem of street harassment, despite plenty of evidence and personal stories presented to them. It's disingenuous of them to pretend that they don't know it's happening, so why do they bother? It's not like women who have been harassed are just going to turn around and say well I guess you were right, my poor little female brain didn't realize that this kind man just wanted to complement my beautiful tits/ass/pussy while I was minding my own business walking down the street and it was so rude of me to flip him off.
And the men who do it are perfectly aware that it's a frightening and unnerving experience, they do it because it makes them feel powerful to put women in their place. It's just like rape has nothing to do with the attractiveness of woman and everything to do with the power of taking what they want.
There's no amount of convincing explanation that will change the minds of dedicated misogynists, the only reason to continue debating is to show other men and women what kind of harm is being done and perhaps make bystanders step in and prevent harassment when it happens.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: honeybbq on August 01, 2019, 11:31:16 AM

Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

Rape is ok as long as consentual sex is what was intended?  Coolio. Glad we got that straight. It's all about intentions. Not facts or actual actions. Right on!
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: KBecks on August 01, 2019, 11:48:13 AM
I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

Excuse me while I go cry. That's horrible.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Davnasty on August 01, 2019, 12:01:06 PM
I've always wondered what goes through the heads of all the street harassers.  The whole thing is so incredibly weird.  No matter how good looking I think a guy walking down the street is, I can't imagine making him uncomfortable by grabbing him or yelling something at him. I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

As an adult I often wondered if maybe they though I would actually have sex with them if they harassed me on the street. I can't imagine that every happening but could that be their motivation?  I think that there was a Sex and the City episode where Miranda actually asks a street harasser these questions.

I think a lot of people write this off as an absurd motivation, but I actually think it's one* of the reasons men do it. While it's extremely unlikely to be effective, the chances of sex with a random stranger walking by is 0, but the chance of sex with someone you speak to and get their attention is some non-zero %. If they bother several women a day for 10 years that would add up to 1000's, suddenly the odds look a bit more probable. And beyond that, they probably aren't putting as much thought into it as we are right now, so it may just be an animalistic urge. Is a monkey who throws rocks at a potential mate more likely to get some than a monkey who sits quietly and stares? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Heck, this is a common first tactic for kids in grade school. Who here was picked on by someone who had a crush on them as a kid? Maybe some people's emotional maturity level just hasn't progressed past a 4th grade level.

*I'm sure different people have different reasons and it's probably a combination of reasons for each person. The power dynamic and just getting a woman to notice them are probably the other big two.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: gaja on August 01, 2019, 12:27:06 PM
I've always wondered what goes through the heads of all the street harassers.  The whole thing is so incredibly weird.  No matter how good looking I think a guy walking down the street is, I can't imagine making him uncomfortable by grabbing him or yelling something at him. I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

As an adult I often wondered if maybe they though I would actually have sex with them if they harassed me on the street. I can't imagine that every happening but could that be their motivation?  I think that there was a Sex and the City episode where Miranda actually asks a street harasser these questions.

I think a lot of people write this off as an absurd motivation, but I actually think it's one* of the reasons men do it. While it's extremely unlikely to be effective, the chances of sex with a random stranger walking by is 0, but the chance of sex with someone you speak to and get their attention is some non-zero %. If they bother several women a day for 10 years that would add up to 1000's, suddenly the odds look a bit more probable. And beyond that, they probably aren't putting as much thought into it as we are right now, so it may just be an animalistic urge. Is a monkey who throws rocks at a potential mate more likely to get some than a monkey who sits quietly and stares? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Heck, this is a common first tactic for kids in grade school. Who here was picked on by someone who had a crush on them as a kid? Maybe some people's emotional maturity level just hasn't progressed past a 4th grade level.

*I'm sure different people have different reasons and it's probably a combination of reasons for each person. The power dynamic and just getting a woman to notice them are probably the other big two.

There were some studies done on dickpics that suggested the men continue doing it because it actually works. Yes, almost all women find them disgusting, but men sending dickpics ignore the negative and non-respons, and focus on the 1:100 000 that replies something that can be considered positive.

And that is also part of why so many women experience dickpics and harassment, and so few men admit to doing it. Those who are doing this type of thing keep long hours and work hard on reaching a lot of victims.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: DadJokes on August 01, 2019, 12:50:08 PM
I have been reading this thread with fascination for the last couple of days. I didn't plan on actually wading into the minefield, but I just saw catcalling happen while walking outside a few minutes ago.

A woman is walking along, minding her own business, when a homeless man shouts, "Holy cow! Look at the handles on that cutie!"

And this is in a fairly progressive city, so it doesn't just happen in NYC.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on August 01, 2019, 01:30:48 PM
I have been reading this thread with fascination for the last couple of days. I didn't plan on actually wading into the minefield, but I just saw catcalling happen while walking outside a few minutes ago.

A woman is walking along, minding her own business, when a homeless man shouts, "Holy cow! Look at the handles on that cutie!"

And this is in a fairly progressive city, so it doesn't just happen in NYC.

It's one of the things that makes me grateful to be losing my hearing: finally a silver lining for this particular cloud. The rudeness is probably still occurring, and now there are also snide remarks about my service dog, but other people's mouth noise doesn't enter into my awareness until someone takes physical action or enters my field of view. It's good, because most of what gets filtered out is stupid to begin with.

The senior citizen who rubbed up on me in a public bus when I was thirteen was nasty, and the "boyfriend" who tried to rape me in the park when I was fourteen wasn't much better. My judo was good that day and I improvised a creative way to use walls. At some point I learned to tune out the blabbermouths, but I really hate being touched unless it's some sort of fight sport. I absolutely despise human contact unless that person and I are fighting or training... come to think of it, the sliminess of mandatory social contact and the sheer dishonesty behind it is probably one of the reasons it all makes me sick. The worst were the ones who tried to run me off the road while I was on my motorcycle. They ease up from behind and give your bike a bit of a bump, or try to force you off the road sideways. I'm sure it was "all in good fun" and "just a joke" and similar excuse making. Walking isn't that great of an idea because you never know when someone is going to throw a drink cup or something similar out of the window of a moving vehicle.

It starts in elementary school where they pull your hair, throw rocks or snowballs at you, call you names, shove you, or make fun of you. Apparently it's because they like you. All the adults applaud and encourage this behavior because it's an acceptable form of expressing positive attention. Yet when they do it to other boys, the person on the receiving end of the shove or the slap is considered justified in hitting back. If you dare to complain to a teacher, you'll be punished for having started it or done something to create the response. Apparently males aren't supposed to have agency or the capacity for independent thought, much less the ability to control their impulses. This doesn't quite mesh with what I've observed of male behavior in the workplace and elsewhere: they also appear to be capable of compassion and to have the ability to bond emotionally with other humans.

Now, anyone who's ever met me knows I'm uglier than a bag of hammers. Being born into a female body is something I regard as a birth defect, or a cruel joke played on me by a Supreme Being who is basically an enemy. I can only imagine what the attractive ones go through, although in fairness they usually have boyfriends with them so they aren't targets.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Just Joe on August 01, 2019, 03:59:43 PM
I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

Excuse me while I go cry. That's horrible.

That low and behold they are God's gift to the world and you just had not noticed them. And - once you had noticed, you'd rush right on over and be their arm candy. 11 years old? Holy smokes... More reason not to like the city.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Kris on August 01, 2019, 04:13:32 PM
I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

Excuse me while I go cry. That's horrible.

That low and behold they are God's gift to the world and you just had not noticed them. And - once you had noticed, you'd rush right on over and be their arm candy. 11 years old? Holy smokes... More reason not to like the city.


It's not just in the city. I lived in a town of 2500 people when I was 11. It happened there, too.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Hula Hoop on August 02, 2019, 05:25:17 AM
It just so happens that my daughter just turned 11 and will probably start traveling to school on public transit soon.  Kind of freaked out by this but I plan to tell her about street harassment and keep an open dialog about it unlike my parents.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Raenia on August 02, 2019, 06:17:23 AM
I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

Excuse me while I go cry. That's horrible.

That low and behold they are God's gift to the world and you just had not noticed them. And - once you had noticed, you'd rush right on over and be their arm candy. 11 years old? Holy smokes... More reason not to like the city.


It's not just in the city. I lived in a town of 2500 people when I was 11. It happened there, too.

Yep, I was in a town of 10k-ish.  It can happen anywhere.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: jinga nation on August 02, 2019, 07:05:27 AM
I've always wondered what goes through the heads of all the street harassers.  The whole thing is so incredibly weird.  No matter how good looking I think a guy walking down the street is, I can't imagine making him uncomfortable by grabbing him or yelling something at him. I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

As an adult I often wondered if maybe they though I would actually have sex with them if they harassed me on the street. I can't imagine that every happening but could that be their motivation?  I think that there was a Sex and the City episode where Miranda actually asks a street harasser these questions.

I think a lot of people write this off as an absurd motivation, but I actually think it's one* of the reasons men do it. While it's extremely unlikely to be effective, the chances of sex with a random stranger walking by is 0, but the chance of sex with someone you speak to and get their attention is some non-zero %. If they bother several women a day for 10 years that would add up to 1000's, suddenly the odds look a bit more probable. And beyond that, they probably aren't putting as much thought into it as we are right now, so it may just be an animalistic urge. Is a monkey who throws rocks at a potential mate more likely to get some than a monkey who sits quietly and stares? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Heck, this is a common first tactic for kids in grade school. Who here was picked on by someone who had a crush on them as a kid? Maybe some people's emotional maturity level just hasn't progressed past a 4th grade level.

*I'm sure different people have different reasons and it's probably a combination of reasons for each person. The power dynamic and just getting a woman to notice them are probably the other big two.

There were some studies done on dickpics that suggested the men continue doing it because it actually works. Yes, almost all women find them disgusting, but men sending dickpics ignore the negative and non-respons, and focus on the 1:100 000 that replies something that can be considered positive.

And that is also part of why so many women experience dickpics and harassment, and so few men admit to doing it. Those who are doing this type of thing keep long hours and work hard on reaching a lot of victims.

dickpic senders: "so you're saying there's a chance? a one in a billion is still a chance. better than zero." Clicks SEND.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on August 02, 2019, 10:56:37 AM
I had my breast grabbed by a boy on a bicycle when I was 11.  It happened mid-afternoon in an upper-class suburb.  I avoided most of this mess by driving places and by dressing invisibly when I was a young woman. Now I am old and invisible.  But it happens.  For sure.  I had hoped that by the 2020's men would have matured out of this juvenile behaviour, but no.

I made sure my DD learned karate.  More for protection against overly pushy (i.e. abusive) boyfriends, but for situations like that as well.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Hula Hoop on August 02, 2019, 12:42:46 PM
Retired - our older daughter does Kung Fu.  Partly for this reason but also because she enjoys it. 
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: RetiredAt63 on August 03, 2019, 06:25:09 AM
Retired - our older daughter does Kung Fu.  Partly for this reason but also because she enjoys it.

Mine enjoyed it too, and I didn't tell her why I was in favour until she was much older.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: NykkiC on August 03, 2019, 03:01:17 PM
I had my breast grabbed by a boy on a bicycle when I was 11.  It happened mid-afternoon in an upper-class suburb.  I avoided most of this mess by driving places and by dressing invisibly when I was a young woman. Now I am old and invisible.  But it happens.  For sure.  I had hoped that by the 2020's men would have matured out of this juvenile behaviour, but no.

I made sure my DD learned karate.  More for protection against overly pushy (i.e. abusive) boyfriends, but for situations like that as well.

That seems to be the general age for first experiences of unwanted attention. Mine was at twelve and was also my first experience of what my friends would later term the Gaslighting Conspiracy: when I asked the mother of a classmate if there was something wrong with my shirt because her husband wouldnít stop staring at my chest, she screamed at me for being a disgusting liar trying to get her husband into trouble - and would try to smear my reputation to the parents of other kids for the rest of the two years I went to school with her son.
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: pudding on August 19, 2019, 05:20:52 PM
I have been reading this thread with fascination for the last couple of days. I didn't plan on actually wading into the minefield, but I just saw catcalling happen while walking outside a few minutes ago.

A woman is walking along, minding her own business, when a homeless man shouts, "Holy cow! Look at the handles on that cutie!"

And this is in a fairly progressive city, so it doesn't just happen in NYC.

Yes, agreed.... and you could see it and you know it happened.

I've never said it doesn't happen. All I said was I can't see it in the city I live even though I spend a lot of time outdoors downtown on my bicycle and walking around.

I thereby deduced that though it of course DOES happen in the city where I live, it DOES NOT happen to the extent that it happens in other places. The viral video of New York being a good example.

Because I said I don't think it happens that often where I live, other posters have decided that I'm a nazi sympathizer, unfit to be a parent of a daughter, a mansplainer, a man who dares to think that a women assaulting him is in someway as significant as the same thing happening to a women. A forest gump like dummy who's obviously a confused idiot for not going along with what he's told to think.

I'd be offended but it's almost hilarious.... it's the excited states of America that you see on the T.V.   
Title: Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
Post by: Villanelle on August 19, 2019, 05:31:13 PM
I have been reading this thread with fascination for the last couple of days. I didn't plan on actually wading into the minefield, but I just saw catcalling happen while walking outside a few minutes ago.

A woman is walking along, minding her own business, when a homeless man shouts, "Holy cow! Look at the handles on that cutie!"

And this is in a fairly progressive city, so it doesn't just happen in NYC.

Yes, agreed.... and you could see it and you know it happened.

I've never said it doesn't happen. All I said was I can't see it in the city I live even though I spend a lot of time outdoors downtown on my bicycle and walking around.

I thereby deduced that though it of course DOES happen in the city where I live, it DOES NOT happen to the extent that it happens in other places. The viral video of New York being a good example.

Because I said I don't think it happens that often where I live, other posters have decided that I'm a nazi sympathizer, unfit to be a parent of a daughter, a mansplainer, a man who dares to think that a women assaulting him is in someway as significant as the same thing happening to a women. A forest gump like dummy who's obviously a confused idiot for not going along with what he's told to think.

I'd be offended but it's almost hilarious.... it's the excited states of America that you see on the T.V.

DUDE.  You compared it to being asked ti believe in mythical creatures.  If you didn't mean that, then perhaps instead of painting yourself ass a victim, you should apologize for a horrible choice of analogy.  Start there, if you want us to actually believe you aren't many of the things YOU painted yourself to be with your own words.  If you continue to claim you were mischaracterized, as though all the rest of us are big fat meanies, rather than apologizing for the really awful, hurtful things you said (even if you didn't realize they were awful and hurtful when you said them, because a decent person apologizes when s/he is a hurtful ass, even if the intent was never hurtful or ass-ful), then you just continue to prove the point that you are ignorant and blind to the hurts you cause and to the reality of the situation for women and minorities. 

I have little hope that you actually will go through this thread, see the hurtful, insulting things you said in this thread and apologize.  But know that should you did it, I'd certainly accept it at face value.  Or you can continue to claim that it wasn't actually your words that lead to the way you were perceived.