Author Topic: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?  (Read 16074 times)

Villanelle

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2019, 04:52:06 PM »
Pudding I'm sure all of us would love to hear endless anecdotes of your life as one guy walking around one city not noticing any harassment (but often getting vague come-ons from women), but it doesn't really inform what many many women have experienced. You don't seem to get that your view is superficial. But I guess if it makes you feel better? It does awfully smack of a white person trying to explain to a black person that THEY have never witnessed racism.

+1

The mansplaining of why harassment of women doesn't exist is making my head hurt because my eyes are rolling so hard.



There are folks who really, truly, honestly cannot understand that other people's experience can differ from theirs, and that just because something doesn't happen in front of them that it never occurs.

If I felt like making a similarly inappropriate exaggeration, I'd smile, nod, pat Supreme Gentleman Pudding on the head and say that he's right, he's the only real victim ever in the history of the world, and he'd better hurry up and get to his meeting before one of the evil lying wimmins steals his job or his 'stache.

OK, I give in. I guess it's like unicorns and the sasquatch. I haven't seen them but folks tell me they're out there, and to say that you can't see it as a male means that you are sexist, or need special powers that only females have or eyes in the back of your head or something.

If you read my previous posts I've only ever talked about wether or not it happens in my own city.

Someone referred to a video of street harassment in New York as evidence that I should accept that it happens in Vancouver. But that's another country and thousands of miles away from where I live, and I believe my own experiences over a video on the internet.

To roll it all up. I haven't seen catcalling or street harassment here in Vancouver even though looking very hard for it, my female friends tell me that they haven't experienced it, even the young ones that dress in cosplay costumes.

But the other poster experienced such prolonged and relentless catcalling and harassment in this city that it was a relief to get old and for it to end.

I guess I'm just a dufus and I have to accept that there's no exageration from anyone.


On another note, the original post was about eyelash extensions. I saw a sign on the weekend for 'real mink' eyelashes!  To me that's outrageous, to lock an animal up, kill it, skin it, glue bits of it's fur to your eyelids for vanity. That's real! I can see it. No protesters outside or anything though.

Are you fucking serious?  Female street harassment (WHICH YOUR CITY HAD AN ACTUAL PROGRAM TO TRACK AND ADDRESS, a fact that has repeatedly been posted and which you continue to ignore) is like unicorns?  Do you not see how fucked up that is?  If you told someone you were mugged and they said they'd never been mugged, and none of their friends, even those with very fat wallets, had ever mentioned being mugged, so mugging was clearly like asking them to believe in leprechauns, would you not see some serious insult and condescension in that? 

No wonder your daughter wouldn't share these stories with you, if she has them.  You'd just tell her that being harassed on the street is like claiming to see bigfoot.  You are calling our reported experiences--experiences heavily documented in myriad ways (and again, YOUR CITY even created a program to address these things that supposedly never happen) fiction.  Like crazy, made up creatures. 

I am utterly astounded.  And for the other men reading, if you ever doubted that when women share stories of what happens to them, they often face absolutely vile treatment, to the point that they are basically called liars (our stories, remember, are like asking someone to believe in mythical creatures!), read this, and use it to help you be a better ally.  Because with gems like Pudding in the world, we NEED allies. 

It's absolutely disgusting.


It it because I've got a ... ya know, small thingy or something like that?

By "thingy", if you mean "heart" or "brain", then perhaps, yes. 

joleran

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2019, 07:02:40 PM »
Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling, most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

MrDelane

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2019, 07:11:13 PM »
Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling

Nope.  What would make you think you saw everything that occurred? From the video:


Quote
.... most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

It's not up to anyone to make the call between what is or is not innocuous or between 'unwanted attention' and harassment, unless they are the subject.

If/when someone says they feel harassed we should believe them.  Period.


EDITED TO ADD:
For perspective, another thing to keep in mind is that, in regard to the opposite sex, it is often said that men's biggest fear is that a woman will laugh at them.  Women's biggest fear is that a man will kill them.

Try to view the 'innocuous/unwanted attention' through that lens.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 07:17:27 PM by MrDelane »

Fru-Gal

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2019, 07:20:21 PM »
Down the rabbit hole we go... someone argues she has "large assets on display" and I click the vid to find a normal looking woman with my body type wearing a black crewneck T-shirt that fits her, black jeans and sneakers -- exactly how I dress comfortably to walk through NYC. Lord. I have been doing so well on my news fast. Please Lord help me to find peace amid the trolls.

If you read the wonderful "Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books" by Iranian author and professor Azar Nafisi, you'll understand that policing women's bodies never ends. As extremism descends on Tehran, she describes how girls -- completely covered head to toe per the new religious rules -- were *still* castigated for things like visible wrists (deemed too tempting for men) or eating apples provocatively.

Kris

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2019, 07:49:12 PM »
Here is the video from 4 years ago, 10 hours of walking in NYC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A

So, 10 hours in a tight outfit with large "assets" on display resulted in ~90 seconds of catcalling, most of which was pretty innocuous.  Obviously some of it was over the line, but is saying hello really that bad?  Are men not allowed to talk to women randomly?

Unwanted attention is entirely different than actual harassment.

Other men:

This, right here, is why women get so fucking angry.

Davnasty

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #155 on: July 29, 2019, 08:05:19 PM »
Down the rabbit hole we go... someone argues she has "large assets on display" and I click the vid to find a normal looking woman with my body type wearing a black crewneck T-shirt that fits her, black jeans and sneakers -- exactly how I dress comfortably to walk through NYC. Lord. I have been doing so well on my news fast. Please Lord help me to find peace amid the trolls.

If you read the wonderful "Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books" by Iranian author and professor Azar Nafisi, you'll understand that policing women's bodies never ends. As extremism descends on Tehran, she describes how girls -- completely covered head to toe per the new religious rules -- were *still* castigated for things like visible wrists (deemed too tempting for men) or eating apples provocatively.

Wow. Ya, after reading that comment I was actually thinking "it's true, we don't want to be so sensitive that we can't talk to strangers." But then I watched the video and none of those interactions were ok. This is the verbal equivalent of grabbing someone as they walk by.


partgypsy

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #156 on: July 29, 2019, 08:11:06 PM »
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassment can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, it's not. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 02:51:00 PM by partgypsy »

Kris

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #157 on: July 29, 2019, 08:16:14 PM »
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassement can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, just no. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

And itís not just tedious. It gets to you. It makes you feel watched, on display, vulnerable, self-conscious, nervous. It makes you start to look at every guy with apprehension: is he gonna do it, too? How bad is it gonna be this time? There have been times in my life when Iíve gone through periods of not wanting to leave the house, because I started to dread the inevitability of this shit.

Do NOT underplay this until you have has the experience.

pudding

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #158 on: July 29, 2019, 08:44:19 PM »
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassement can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, just no. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

And itís not just tedious. It gets to you. It makes you feel watched, on display, vulnerable, self-conscious, nervous. It makes you start to look at every guy with apprehension: is he gonna do it, too? How bad is it gonna be this time? There have been times in my life when Iíve gone through periods of not wanting to leave the house, because I started to dread the inevitability of this shit.

Do NOT underplay this until you have has the experience.

Kris, sorry to hear about your experiences.
Maybe think about moving to Vancouver, cat calling happens way way less than New York.

In fact compared to the video of the women's experience walking through New York I'd say in Vancouver Canada it's miniscule in comparison, though of course like all crimes and vile behaviour it does still happen here too.

Cannot Wait!

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #159 on: July 29, 2019, 09:46:06 PM »
I had a fun experience recently trying to explain to a man (Z) that he needed to respect the #metoo movement.  He seemed to think it was harmless to kiss and hug a person to show his admiration for them.  He turned to our mutual (male) friend X as an example saying that when he sees X, he is so happy that he hugs him and gives him a kiss on the forehead. I asked X if he liked getting kissed by Z.  He bashfully said he did not. This was astounding news to Z!  He was completely baffled that someone would not want to be greeted this way. 
I suggested that he simply had to ask first before putting his lips on someone,  male or female.
He maintained that he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing because he was just showing how much he liked the person.
Finally I told him not to do or say anything that he would not want a cell mate in prison to do to him.  ;)

UnleashHell

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #160 on: July 30, 2019, 04:58:19 AM »


In fact compared to the video of the women's experience walking through New York I'd say in Vancouver Canada it's miniscule in comparison, though of course like all crimes and vile behaviour it does still happen here too.

it probably happens more in New york. Thats because the population is about 15 times larger in New York than Vancouver.
I've never seen it happen in my subdivision - that doesn't mean that behavior does not exist.
If you move to a 500 acre farm in montana it would probably not happen at all.

That doesn't mean that its any less real and that it doesn't happen.

Your argument is, at best, one of an ignorant dumbass and you embarrass yourself by using it - and sadly your tunnel vision of this issue also reflect badly on those of us males who do give a shit about it.

When it happens it needs to be pointed out as inappropriate because quite obviously its being ignored by those that choose not to believe that its a problem.


Hula Hoop

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #161 on: July 30, 2019, 06:10:21 AM »
I had a fun experience recently trying to explain to a man (Z) that he needed to respect the #metoo movement.  He seemed to think it was harmless to kiss and hug a person to show his admiration for them.  He turned to our mutual (male) friend X as an example saying that when he sees X, he is so happy that he hugs him and gives him a kiss on the forehead. I asked X if he liked getting kissed by Z.  He bashfully said he did not. This was astounding news to Z!  He was completely baffled that someone would not want to be greeted this way. 
I suggested that he simply had to ask first before putting his lips on someone,  male or female.
He maintained that he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing because he was just showing how much he liked the person.
Finally I told him not to do or say anything that he would not want a cell mate in prison to do to him.  ;)

This depends a lot on cultural norms.  Here in Italy, everyone kisses eachother on both cheeks as a hello or goodbye greeting.  Both men and women do this and my husband does it with his male friends as a matter of course and no one bats an eyelid.  As an American it took a bit of getting used to but I now do it too with both male and female friends. 

Kris

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #162 on: July 30, 2019, 06:34:37 AM »
I don't care if you term cat-calling as unwanted attention or harrassement can we all agree it is unwanted attention? It's unwanted.
This woman, as a point, was walking in regular street clothes with a purposeful gait looking ahead, not engaging either with eye contact or verbally, acting like she was just trying to get somewhere. And yet got call outs average of every 6 minutes.  Do you understand how tedious that would be? Not to mention the few ones that were genuinely threatening (guy following her for 5 minutes). And guys who think this is a good way to approach women, just no. I don't want to exchange hellos, pleasantries, let alone engage in a conversation with a complete stranger while I'm walking down the street.

And itís not just tedious. It gets to you. It makes you feel watched, on display, vulnerable, self-conscious, nervous. It makes you start to look at every guy with apprehension: is he gonna do it, too? How bad is it gonna be this time? There have been times in my life when Iíve gone through periods of not wanting to leave the house, because I started to dread the inevitability of this shit.

Do NOT underplay this until you have has the experience.

Kris, sorry to hear about your experiences.
Maybe think about moving to Vancouver, cat calling happens way way less than New York.

In fact compared to the video of the women's experience walking through New York I'd say in Vancouver Canada it's miniscule in comparison, though of course like all crimes and vile behaviour it does still happen here too.

Pudding, your condescending BS is entirely inappropriate.

I wonít be responding to you again. Because if I said what I wanted to, Iíd be banned.


partgypsy

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #163 on: July 30, 2019, 08:33:33 AM »
I had a fun experience recently trying to explain to a man (Z) that he needed to respect the #metoo movement.  He seemed to think it was harmless to kiss and hug a person to show his admiration for them.  He turned to our mutual (male) friend X as an example saying that when he sees X, he is so happy that he hugs him and gives him a kiss on the forehead. I asked X if he liked getting kissed by Z.  He bashfully said he did not. This was astounding news to Z!  He was completely baffled that someone would not want to be greeted this way. 
I suggested that he simply had to ask first before putting his lips on someone,  male or female.
He maintained that he was completely innocent of any wrongdoing because he was just showing how much he liked the person.
Finally I told him not to do or say anything that he would not want a cell mate in prison to do to him.  ;)

I wouldn't call it respecting the meetoo movement, but respecting people's personal space. Sounds like this guy has a lot of Biden moments.

Don't get me wrong, there is one side of my family who is Greek, and they are a lot more physically demonstrative, and when I am around that side of the family we exchange hugs and kisses on the cheek (when in Rome, etc). There are other cultures like that. But- I don't do that to other people. Mainstream American culture it's not typical, and you should give people personal space unless you have their explicit permission in some way, such as they initiate it or you ask. Is it the worse thing ever? Probably not, but it is a faux pas and if you make a regular practice of it you are not respecting that person or their space. 

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #164 on: July 31, 2019, 07:38:55 AM »
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have.
There is certainly some disagreement as to the appropriateness (or not) of complimenting a woman's appearance in a perfectly platonic way (see the discussion I was involved with).  While I think catcalling is inappropriate, it'd be interesting to interview some of the catcallers, to get some insight into their thought processes, why they do it, and why they think it's acceptable.

WRT pudding's experience, I think it's worth pointing out that his experiences do not discount those who have been harassed, and I'm curious to understand what causes such a difference between his (and his female acquaintances') experiences and the experiences of those here in this thread who have seen far more harassment.

Villanelle

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #165 on: July 31, 2019, 08:52:43 AM »
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have.
There is certainly some disagreement as to the appropriateness (or not) of complimenting a woman's appearance in a perfectly platonic way (see the discussion I was involved with).  While I think catcalling is inappropriate, it'd be interesting to interview some of the catcallers, to get some insight into their thought processes, why they do it, and why they think it's acceptable.

WRT pudding's experience, I think it's worth pointing out that his experiences do not discount those who have been harassed, and I'm curious to understand what causes such a difference between his (and his female acquaintances') experiences and the experiences of those here in this thread who have seen far more harassment.

How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condesending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?

partgypsy

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #166 on: July 31, 2019, 09:35:24 AM »
It would be interesting to me to understand more about how various people/groups/cultures/regions draw the line.  A person in X city who's Y years old from Z cultural background might deem a particular comment to be perfectly respectful and normal, while a recipient in city B who's C years old and from culture D would take considerable offense.  Certainly we've already seen evidence of such disparity within this thread, and there's clearly a marked difference in how men and women intend and interpret certain comments.

Have we seen disparity in this thread?  We have on person suggesting the behavior doesn't happen.  Do we have some people saying X isn't acceptable while others say it is?  I won't reread the entire thread, but I don't recall that at all.

We have women saying that X happens, and is a near universal experience, and on person suggesting it doesn't happen, or doesn't happen in his city (a city with a program specifically tracking this behavior that supposedly doesn't ever happen). 

So no, not a disparity.  A man claiming that women's experiences aren't real simply because he, as a men, has never experienced them.  That's what we have.
There is certainly some disagreement as to the appropriateness (or not) of complimenting a woman's appearance in a perfectly platonic way (see the discussion I was involved with).  While I think catcalling is inappropriate, it'd be interesting to interview some of the catcallers, to get some insight into their thought processes, why they do it, and why they think it's acceptable.

WRT pudding's experience, I think it's worth pointing out that his experiences do not discount those who have been harassed, and I'm curious to understand what causes such a difference between his (and his female acquaintances') experiences and the experiences of those here in this thread who have seen far more harassment.

Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

As far as what is appropriate or not commenting on personal appearance. Most guys seem to get what is appropriate or not, and others do not. If you are one of the clueless types, and some woman responds in a way to indicate they do not appreciate it, that is feedback to not do that again.

As far as not knowing, yes there are different norms between strangers, acquaintances, and friends and the various situations you are in. There is no way to spell out every contingency it is called common sense.
One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 09:40:11 AM by partgypsy »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #167 on: July 31, 2019, 11:11:41 AM »
How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condescending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?


Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

...

One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
I'm curious, because I find it important to understand a problem, and its root causes, before working to fix it.  That applies whether it's a technical problem at work, our family's finances, a misbehaving kid, economics, homelessness, or men catcalling on the street.  Without that understanding, efforts to fix the problem can be (and often are) misdirected or even counterproductive.

I went back and re-read pudding's comment about unicorns and Bigfoot, and other of his comments.  Yeah, some of his comments were out of line, but I get the feeling that the reason he's having trouble accepting the degree of harassment claimed isn't because he's sexist, but because he hasn't seen any evidence in his location, even among his female friends who presumably would be the most likely targets of such behavior.

I don't know enough to takes sides on how much sexual harassment happens, but it seems like there is a lot of "here's why you don't see it (you're male, you're in denial, nobody is going to tell you, etc)"  All of which are valid.  But isn't it also possible that Vancouver doesn't have as big of a sexual harassment problem as other locations, and that unicorns and Bigfoot spend more of their time in NYC than Vancouver?

Just a few weeks ago, we had a party that included a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years. When I arrived, I noticed that he looked...good, looked healthy (I couldn't put my finger on what exactly), and made a comment to that effect.  Turns out he's lost 90 lbs over the last several months, and it led to a very normal, comfortable conversation about it.  I would be terrified to make a similar comment to a woman.  Of course, context is everything--the degree of the relationship, the social setting, the tone of voice, etc.  But the risk of misinterpretation and offense is way too high.

Villanelle

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #168 on: July 31, 2019, 11:26:09 AM »
How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condescending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?


Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

...

One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
I'm curious, because I find it important to understand a problem, and its root causes, before working to fix it.  That applies whether it's a technical problem at work, our family's finances, a misbehaving kid, economics, homelessness, or men catcalling on the street.  Without that understanding, efforts to fix the problem can be (and often are) misdirected or even counterproductive.

I went back and re-read pudding's comment about unicorns and Bigfoot, and other of his comments.  Yeah, some of his comments were out of line, but I get the feeling that the reason he's having trouble accepting the degree of harassment claimed isn't because he's sexist, but because he hasn't seen any evidence in his location, even among his female friends who presumably would be the most likely targets of such behavior.

I don't know enough to takes sides on how much sexual harassment happens, but it seems like there is a lot of "here's why you don't see it (you're male, you're in denial, nobody is going to tell you, etc)"  All of which are valid.  But isn't it also possible that Vancouver doesn't have as big of a sexual harassment problem as other locations, and that unicorns and Bigfoot spend more of their time in NYC than Vancouver?

Just a few weeks ago, we had a party that included a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years. When I arrived, I noticed that he looked...good, looked healthy (I couldn't put my finger on what exactly), and made a comment to that effect.  Turns out he's lost 90 lbs over the last several months, and it led to a very normal, comfortable conversation about it.  I would be terrified to make a similar comment to a woman.  Of course, context is everything--the degree of the relationship, the social setting, the tone of voice, etc.  But the risk of misinterpretation and offense is way too high.

Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.

partgypsy

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #169 on: July 31, 2019, 11:55:37 AM »
Zoo,  most likely a small percent of guys are responsible for the majority of problems.  As far as catcallers go I'm guessing they do it because they feel like it? You are free to make your own video interviewing these folks to get their side. 

I think there is also a subset of guys who do not intend offense, who maybe are not particularly good at reading people, in particular females? 

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?

If you are still finding this extremely perplexing they are plenty of sexual harassment awareness and training videos out there on the internet.
No where does it say that normal typical interactions between between say coworkers or acquaintinces is somehow illegal or fraught to the degree you are suggesting.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:00:47 PM by partgypsy »

ysette9

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2019, 11:56:18 AM »
I just donít understand the reluctance to open your mind to an idea that you havenít personally witnessed. We are all pretty good about learning from others and benefiting from the efforts of the group. ďStanding on the shoulders of giantsĒ kind of idea. Why is it okay to believe scientists when they say the ice caps are melting without traveling to visit them yourself or believing that lots of analysis says that a 4% withdrawal rate is likely a solid idea or that vaccines are effective without getting a PhD in biochemistry and researching them yourself, and not accepting that many many many women have experienced harassement just because you didnít witness it yourself? Especially when many people have provided multiple reasons why a man would be unlikely to witness it himself? I just donít understand this blind spot.

The blind spot and the fact that we have spent dozens of posts talking about this is offensive and makes me (us) weary. Why should the burden be on me/us to convince you of reality? Not only do we have to deal with this threat for most of our lives but in addition we have the added burden of justifying our experience to the same group of people causing the harassment in the first place?

Note: I am not accusing any individual here or harassment but women are trained from an early age to judge men on a threat scale, so while men are certainly not all alike, there are enough bad actors out there that we need to be cautious at all times.

spartana

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #171 on: July 31, 2019, 12:16:09 PM »
How does saying that asking him to believe stories of harassment when he's never witnessed them is akin to asking him to believe in unicorns not discounting?

Again, if you said you'd been mugged and I said I've never been mugged and no one I know personally has ever mentioned being mugged, so asking me to believe in mugging is like asking me to believe in unicorns, are you saying that wouldn't be condescending, insulting, dismissive, and exceptionally rude?


Why are you curious about why the catcallers do it? What are you hoping to learn?

As others mention Pudding WAS discounting what others experiences. Answering his rhetorical question, I and others pointed out possible reasons why he saw less (as a guy he is not a target for catcalls. Guys don't typically catcall women accompanied by another guy. Toronto may have less than other urban regions where people DID experience harrassment. Sexual harrassment was probably more prevalent when me and other female posters were growing up (80's and 90's) than present-day.  So people DID address that. And then he made his bigfoot and unicorn reference.

...

One thought experiment is, think if you said something similar to a guy,that you are thinking of saying to a woman (I like your hair, perfume, shoes, are you working out?). First of all, would you even make such a comment to another guy? 2nd, is it probable the guy would think you were hitting on him?  If it is no and yes, best to refrain. In the same way, if you were purposely walking down a city street and other men called out to you "are you having a good day?" "hello handsome" "why won't you smile" "why won't you talk to me?" would you appreciate the attention or not?
I'm curious, because I find it important to understand a problem, and its root causes, before working to fix it.  That applies whether it's a technical problem at work, our family's finances, a misbehaving kid, economics, homelessness, or men catcalling on the street.  Without that understanding, efforts to fix the problem can be (and often are) misdirected or even counterproductive.

I went back and re-read pudding's comment about unicorns and Bigfoot, and other of his comments.  Yeah, some of his comments were out of line, but I get the feeling that the reason he's having trouble accepting the degree of harassment claimed isn't because he's sexist, but because he hasn't seen any evidence in his location, even among his female friends who presumably would be the most likely targets of such behavior.

I don't know enough to takes sides on how much sexual harassment happens, but it seems like there is a lot of "here's why you don't see it (you're male, you're in denial, nobody is going to tell you, etc)"  All of which are valid.  But isn't it also possible that Vancouver doesn't have as big of a sexual harassment problem as other locations, and that unicorns and Bigfoot spend more of their time in NYC than Vancouver?

Just a few weeks ago, we had a party that included a friend I hadn't seen in a couple years. When I arrived, I noticed that he looked...good, looked healthy (I couldn't put my finger on what exactly), and made a comment to that effect.  Turns out he's lost 90 lbs over the last several months, and it led to a very normal, comfortable conversation about it.  I would be terrified to make a similar comment to a woman.  Of course, context is everything--the degree of the relationship, the social setting, the tone of voice, etc.  But the risk of misinterpretation and offense is way too high.
There's a big difference between telling a male or female friend they're looking good compared to a variety of random strange men telling "you are pretty, smile beautiful, looking hot" following along side you or worse almost everytime you are out walking around - often every.single.day.for years! Especially when that person may outweigh you by 100 lbs or be in a group of men doing it. I always tell guys they should  imagine they are a new inmate walking by all the cells past a bunch of hooting 250 lb inmates telling you what a pretty boy you are and how you should smile more. Not flattering but scary. Now imagine how your wife, daughter or sister would feel when a random stranger guy follows them around saying those things.

ETA: I'm not trying to say that men who make comments to strange women (or inappropriate comments to women they know) all have bad intentions. I don't think they do. But I hate it when people (male or female) dismiss someone's experience because they haven't seen or experienced it themself. I spent most of my teen and adult life working with all male crews (or with one or 2 other women aboard or in my unit) aboard ships or remote areas while in the military and civilian jobs - both very blue collar "rough" jobs where I spent 24/7 with them for months at a time. I was never catcalled or harassed sexually by my male co-workers (and I'm a fairly attractive straight woman) but I am not going to dismiss someone's (male or female) who experienced (or worse) while in the military on the job just because it never happened to me or anyone I know or I didn't see it.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 12:53:10 PM by spartana »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #172 on: July 31, 2019, 02:12:38 PM »
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

partgypsy

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #173 on: July 31, 2019, 02:22:09 PM »
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

Totally, as we saw with Kavanaugh, poor dear.
You are right Pudding, Zoo. it's the men who are the real victims here, with this epidemic of false accusations of sexual harassment. I'm glad someone is finally shining a light on this terrible social problem that is ruining so many men's lives.

I think you might want to stop talking to black people too as they might accuse you of racism.   
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 02:34:16 PM by partgypsy »

Villanelle

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #174 on: July 31, 2019, 02:25:42 PM »
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.


You said the reason he's having trouble accepting that this is reality is because he hasn't seen it in his location.  I pointed out that proof of it occurring in his location has been posted and he's ignored that.  So it seems quite clear that his difficulty accepting this reality is not because he hasn't personally seen it. 

And I never implied you implied that this doesn't happen in Vancouver, so YOU are the one misrepresenting someone, not I.  If he needed proof it happens in his city, that was offered.  He still doesn't accept this reality.  If I say I don't believe anyone is ever mugged in my city and you post sources showing it does, and I still continue to say I don't believe it, it can no longer be reasonably argued that maybe it's just because I haven't seen it.  Clearly, there is a much bigger bias at play when I refuse to accept very solid evidence of that reality.  You said he hasn't seen "evidence" in his location.  That evidence was presented in this very thread.  So clearly, your explanation/excuse for his refusal to believe reality is incorrect.  That's what I was pointing out. 

And, to be very clear, I never said you don't believe these things happen in Vancouver, and frankly, I appreciate and apology for you saying I did, or an explanation of how you got that from my post, which was two lines in total and referenced pudding, not you in any way.

Davnasty

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #175 on: July 31, 2019, 03:02:21 PM »
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

I have friends of both sexes and if one said to me you look healthy or good, I would say thanks. Saying that you would be literally "terrified" of saying a similar thing to a female friend is - weird. What are you terrified of? She will start yelling? Attack you? Break down crying? Accuse you sexual harassment? Don't you think that seems rather absurd?
Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

Totally, as we saw with Kavanaugh, poor dear.
You are right Pudding, Zoo. it's the men who are the real victims here, with this epidemic of false accusations of sexual harassment. I'm glad someone is finally shining a light on this terrible social problem that is ruining so many men's lives.

I think you might want to stop talking to black people too as they might accuse you of racism.

I've been reading along and disagreeing with most of what zolotiyeruki has said, but I don't think it's fair to discount this last point with sarcasm. False accusations may be uncommon but they can happen and they can be very damaging. When a public figure is accused the news spreads like wildfire and when an investigation clears their name it gets little attention, it's just not as exciting of a story. Not to mention, one's name can never be truly cleared as there will always be an association between the name and sexual misconduct. For the less public figures, being fired for an accusation is not unheard of. Sometimes it's easier, particularly for large companies, to just get rid of someone than figure out what really happened and tarnish their brand.

And I do understand the frustration when someone makes a bigger deal of false accusations than the real problem. Many do so in bad faith to muddy the conversation and minimize the real issue, but I don't think this was the intent here.

desert_phoenix

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #176 on: July 31, 2019, 04:17:30 PM »
On the topic of anecdotes I (male, early 30s) was meeting a female friend  for drinks after work one day a couple of years ago.

I arrived a few minutes early and was standing outside the bar when I noticed her about a block and a half away walking towards me.  It happened to be an inordinately quiet moment since the bar was a few blocks off a main thoroughfare.  In the less than three minutes it took for her to close the distance between us, three separate vehicles with male drivers slowed down to say things to her that I couldn't hear from where I was standing.  She is pretty mild mannered but let loose with an impressive string of profanity at each one. 

She arrived to greet me and noted the 5 block walk from where she parked, mentioned that 7 total guys had cat called her or asked if she wanted to get in, and then just walked past me into the bar.  It was like a random Tuesday evening, the sun had not even set, and it was clear from her tone that it was sort of just another day of being a woman in a city.

Cat calling is creepy and men should not do it, defend it, or play it down.  It is on men to help end this stuff.  Don't set examples for younger men that this is how to treat women, don't keep quiet if other guys are doing it around you, etc...  It is on all of us to build a better society for everyone.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 04:43:38 PM by desert_phoenix »

ysette9

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #177 on: July 31, 2019, 04:31:23 PM »
On the topic of anecdotes I (male, early 30s) was meeting a female friend  for drinks after work one day a couple of years ago.

I arrived a few minutes early and was standing outside the bar when I noticed her about a block and a half away walking towards me.  It happened to be an inordinately quiet moment since the bar was a few blocks off a main thoroughfare.  In the less than three minutes it took for her to close the distance between us, three separate vehicles with male drivers slowed down to say things to her that I couldn't hear from where I was standing.  She is pretty mild mannered but let loose with an impressive string of profanity at each one. 

She arrived to greet me and noted the 5 block walk from where she parked, mentioned that 7 total guys at cat called her or asked if she wanted to get in on the walk, and then just walked past me into the bar.  It was like a random Tuesday evening, the sun had not even set, and it was clear from her tone that it was sort of just another day of being a woman in a city.

Cat calling is creepy and men should not do it, defend it, or play it down.  It is on men to help end this stuff.  Don't set examples for younger men that this is how to treat women, don't keep quiet if other guys are doing it around you, etc...  It is on all of us to build a better society for everyone.
~clapping~

MrDelane

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #178 on: July 31, 2019, 06:55:40 PM »
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

Why he has not seen it first hand is irrelevant to the discussion, other than as a curiosity or piece of trivia.

I have no personal experience, first or secondhand, seeing viruses, being mugged, climbing Everest or being denied service due to my religion, race or orientation... but I accept that all of those things have and do exist.

Why I haven't experienced it completely beside the point.
To deny the existence of any of those things would be irrational in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Quote
...there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended...

You say that as if it means that because there was no intent of harassment it means harassment did not occur.  Again, harassment is defined by the subject of the attention, not the intention of the person giving it.  If someone does not want attention, and the attention persists, that is harassment, and we should listen to them. Period. 

Kris

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #179 on: July 31, 2019, 06:59:57 PM »
Several times proof that this happens "in his location" have been posted. 

So, no.
Please do not reductio ad absurdum my post.  I never stated or implied that it doesn't happen in Vancouver.  I posited that it's conceivable that *a* reason pudding hasn't seen it is because maybe it happens less there.  I'm not saying that it *does* happen less there, or that if it happens less, that's *the* reason pudding hasn't seen it.  I'm merely pointing out that we should not discount one possibility just because others (which match our point of view) exist.

Why he has not seen it first hand is irrelevant to the discussion, other than as a curiosity or piece of trivia.

I have no personal experience, first or secondhand, seeing viruses, being mugged, climbing Everest or being denied service due to my religion, race or orientation... but I accept that all of those things have and do exist.

Why I haven't experienced it completely beside the point.
To deny the existence of any of those things would be irrational in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Quote
...there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended...

You say that as if it means that because there was no intent of harassment it means harassment did not occur.  Again, harassment is defined by the subject of the attention, not the intention of the person giving it.  If someone does not want attention, and the attention persists, that is harassment, and we should listen to them. Period.

Thank you, @MrDelane

Fae

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #180 on: August 01, 2019, 06:40:44 AM »
Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended,

Intent is a funny thing, just because you don't intend something doesn't make it any less real.

Last month I walked out to my car to go home from work and found a flat tire (front passenger side). Having just put on the spare and let down the jack, I stood up and was brushing the dirt off of my work clothes. At this point a coworker who was driving some parts over to our other building (~.5 mile away), stopped and came over to help. He was amazed, I mean amazed that I had changed my tire all by myself. How do I know he was amazed? He told me, multiple times. "How amazing it was I knew how to do, how impressive it was that I could do it by myself". I then went to put my flat tire in the trunk, so I could take it to the tire place to see if it could be repaired. He went "oh no, let me do that for you, tires are heavy" To which I replied" No thanks, I've got it" and tossed the tire in the trunk. This too was impressive and amazing.The next day at work, he stopped by my desk and went on and on about how amazing my being able to change a tire was.

Did my coworker intend to be sexist? No, I truly believe he didn't mean to be sexist and thought he was complimenting me.

Was my coworker being sexist? Hell yes. I can guarantee he would never say these things (and probably wouldn't have even stopped to help) any of the guys who work here.My changing a tire was only impressive and amazing because I am female.

partgypsy

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #181 on: August 01, 2019, 06:54:25 AM »
Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended,

Intent is a funny thing, just because you don't intend something doesn't make it any less real.

Last month I walked out to my car to go home from work and found a flat tire (front passenger side). Having just put on the spare and let down the jack, I stood up and was brushing the dirt off of my work clothes. At this point a coworker who was driving some parts over to our other building (~.5 mile away), stopped and came over to help. He was amazed, I mean amazed that I had changed my tire all by myself. How do I know he was amazed? He told me, multiple times. "How amazing it was I knew how to do, how impressive it was that I could do it by myself". I then went to put my flat tire in the trunk, so I could take it to the tire place to see if it could be repaired. He went "oh no, let me do that for you, tires are heavy" To which I replied" No thanks, I've got it" and tossed the tire in the trunk. This too was impressive and amazing.The next day at work, he stopped by my desk and went on and on about how amazing my being able to change a tire was.

Did my coworker intend to be sexist? No, I truly believe he didn't mean to be sexist and thought he was complimenting me.

Was my coworker being sexist? Hell yes. I can guarantee he would never say these things (and probably wouldn't have even stopped to help) any of the guys who work here.My changing a tire was only impressive and amazing because I am female.

Well I am impressed. I've never done it, and don't think my ex who is a guy has actually ever changed a tire. But yeah going on about it would be annoying, like giving a child a pat on the head or something. 

Davnasty

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #182 on: August 01, 2019, 07:11:33 AM »
Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended,

Intent is a funny thing, just because you don't intend something doesn't make it any less real.

Last month I walked out to my car to go home from work and found a flat tire (front passenger side). Having just put on the spare and let down the jack, I stood up and was brushing the dirt off of my work clothes. At this point a coworker who was driving some parts over to our other building (~.5 mile away), stopped and came over to help. He was amazed, I mean amazed that I had changed my tire all by myself. How do I know he was amazed? He told me, multiple times. "How amazing it was I knew how to do, how impressive it was that I could do it by myself". I then went to put my flat tire in the trunk, so I could take it to the tire place to see if it could be repaired. He went "oh no, let me do that for you, tires are heavy" To which I replied" No thanks, I've got it" and tossed the tire in the trunk. This too was impressive and amazing.The next day at work, he stopped by my desk and went on and on about how amazing my being able to change a tire was.

Did my coworker intend to be sexist? No, I truly believe he didn't mean to be sexist and thought he was complimenting me.

Was my coworker being sexist? Hell yes. I can guarantee he would never say these things (and probably wouldn't have even stopped to help) any of the guys who work here.My changing a tire was only impressive and amazing because I am female.
I think your example is different than the type of situation zolotiyeruki was getting at. In your scenario he had no intent to offend but it was his underlying sexist view that resulted in his actions. So there was no intent to offend but it was still offensive.

As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

ETA: Actually I guess he was referring specifically to compliments.

Well, besides the social awkwardness of having a compliment misinterpreted (see the long discussion earlier in this thread), accusations of sexual harassment are nothing to sniff at.  Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

But I would make the same point. To say that a well intended compliment makes a women uncomfortable and intent is irrelevant is fair. To say that well intended person is now guilty of sexual harassment seems like a stretch to me. Although it's also a stretch to suggest a misconstrued compliment could be devastating to a man's life.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 07:45:47 AM by Dabnasty »

MrDelane

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #183 on: August 01, 2019, 07:46:59 AM »
As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

Yes, it is enough to call it harassment.
Harassment only requires that a person feel harassed.
Whether or not that feeling was intentional is a whole other topic, which could arguably leave us thinking the harassment is of a higher or lower level - but in either scenario it is still harassment.

Fae's example is absolutely perfect. The man probably didn't intent to be sexist, but that makes his statements no less sexist.  The man in the hypothetical elevator didn't mean to harass anyone, but that doesn't make his actions any less harassing.

Legally, harassment is apparently "generally defined as a course of conduct which annoys, threatens, intimidates, alarms, or puts a person in fear of their safety."  It says nothing about it being a course of conduct that intends to annoy, threaten, etc.  Harassment is defined by the person receiving the attention, not the intentions of anyone giving attention.

EDITED TO ADD:
I think another thing worth throwing out here is that 'harassment' can obviously have various levels of severity. Small talk in an elevator is not on the same level as sexually explicit comments to a stranger on a street, but that doesn't mean they can't both still be considered harassment (they are simply at different levels). I think people who mean no harm are uncomfortable and offended by the idea that they might be under the same umbrella as overt offenders... but it's not up to them, it's up to how they leave people feeling with their actions, regardless of intent.

I suppose as a society we need to reframe the question and stop asking "Was this action harassment?" and instead ask "Was this person left feeling harassed by this action?"

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:
As an analogy - harassment is like homocide.
We have manslaughter and murder, which take into account intent - but they are both considered 'homocide', and in either case the subject winds up dead.

Unfortunately the language surrounded harassment is not as well defined, and we don't have clear terms to parse out intention.  So the only way we can talk it about is in terms of the subject's reaction.  But I would say that much like murder vs manslaughter, the intention doesn't matter a whole lot to the victim.\\

EDITED FOR THE LAST TIME TO ADD:
And now I feel like I am mansplaining harassment to a thread filled with women... and if that is how this came across I am sincerely sorry.  It is not my intention, and please know that I only speak out like this because I feel too many men are quiet and feel it makes them look weak to speak up about these things.  Apologies if this is not my place.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 08:02:19 AM by MrDelane »

Kris

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #184 on: August 01, 2019, 08:05:44 AM »
As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

Yes, it is enough to call it harassment.
Harassment only requires that a person feel harassed.
Whether or not that feeling was intentional is a whole other topic, which could arguably leave us thinking the harassment is of a higher or lower level - but in either scenario it is still harassment.

Fae's example is absolutely perfect. The man probably didn't intent to be sexist, but that makes his statements no less sexist.  The man in the hypothetical elevator didn't mean to harass anyone, but that doesn't make his actions any less harassing.

Legally, harassment is apparently "generally defined as a course of conduct which annoys, threatens, intimidates, alarms, or puts a person in fear of their safety."  It says nothing about it being a course of conduct that intends to annoy, threaten, etc.  Harassment is defined by the person receiving the attention, not the intentions of anyone giving attention.

EDITED TO ADD:
I think another thing worth throwing out here is that 'harassment' can obviously have various levels of severity. Small talk in an elevator is not on the same level as sexually explicit comments to a stranger on a street, but that doesn't mean they can't both still be considered harassment (they are simply at different levels). I think people who mean no harm are uncomfortable and offended by the idea that they might be under the same umbrella as overt offenders... but it's not up to them, it's up to how they leave people feeling with their actions, regardless of intent.

I suppose as a society we need to reframe the question and stop asking "Was this action harassment?" and instead ask "Was this person left feeling harassed by this action?"

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:
As an analogy - harassment is like homocide.
We have manslaughter and murder, which take into account intent - but they are both considered 'homocide', and in either case the subject winds up dead.

Unfortunately the language surrounded harassment is not as well defined, and we don't have clear terms to parse out intention.  So the only way we can talk it about is in terms of the subject's reaction.  But I would say that much like murder vs manslaughter, the intention doesn't matter a whole lot to the victim.\\

EDITED FOR THE LAST TIME TO ADD:
And now I feel like I am mansplaining harassment to a thread filled with women... and if that is how this came across I am sincerely sorry.  It is not my intention, and please know that I only speak out like this because I feel too many men are quiet and feel it makes them look weak to speak up about these things.  Apologies if this is not my place.

You're not mansplaining to us. You get that we get it. You're being an ally and an advocate. Thank you.

Davnasty

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #185 on: August 01, 2019, 08:33:18 AM »
As an example of what (I think) he was trying to get at, let's say a man gets into an elevator after a woman. He makes small talk on the way up and she feels uncomfortable being in an elevator alone with him and perceives the small talk as flirting. It's fair to say she is uncomfortable and the fact that he didn't intend to make her uncomfortable is irrelevant. But is that enough to call it harassment? If she felt harassed was he by extension harassing her?

Yes, it is enough to call it harassment.
Harassment only requires that a person feel harassed.
Whether or not that feeling was intentional is a whole other topic, which could arguably leave us thinking the harassment is of a higher or lower level - but in either scenario it is still harassment.

Fae's example is absolutely perfect. The man probably didn't intent to be sexist, but that makes his statements no less sexist.  The man in the hypothetical elevator didn't mean to harass anyone, but that doesn't make his actions any less harassing.

Legally, harassment is apparently "generally defined as a course of conduct which annoys, threatens, intimidates, alarms, or puts a person in fear of their safety."  It says nothing about it being a course of conduct that intends to annoy, threaten, etc.  Harassment is defined by the person receiving the attention, not the intentions of anyone giving attention.

So this makes sense, by the literal definition of harassment this person is harassing her in the elevator.

But let's take another example. A black man goes to a public space and sits on a bench near a woman. She feels fear for her safety due to her prejudice. By the literal definition he is guilty of harassment. At this point I am not disputing that conclusion, however I would ask if given this circumstance you would feel comfortable using the would harassment to describe his actions?

What I'm getting at here is that I think it's worth recognizing that the literal definition of something isn't necessarily the way it's used in conversation. If we use a strictly literal definition of harassment, does the word lose some of its meaning?

partgypsy

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #186 on: August 01, 2019, 08:55:27 AM »
Mr. Delane I appreciate your support, but what is missing is that it is considered sexual harassment say legally if it is something a "reasonable person" considers harassment. It is not purely subjective. For example a woman had a previous past terrible experience with a man wearing a cowboy hat. She gets in an elevator and someone gets in with a cowboy hat. She feels threatened. Even if she feels bad, it would not be considered harassment on that alone because it's what a reasonable person would consider harassment. I have to take training for my work. There are rules. The fact that it is "unwanted" is a key part of it. Also that it's a pattern. But it's not just because the woman or person "says so".

Every workplace has different rules here are VA's

Sexual harassment occurs when: (1) acceptance or rejection is required
(explicitly or implicitly) for continued employment; (2) acceptance or rejection of the
harassment by an individual impacts his/her treatment by the harasser; or (3) the
harassment unreasonably interferes with individualís work performance or creates an
intimidating hostile, or offensive working environment for the target of the harassment or
for observers. Sexual harassment can also include behaviors that are not overtly
sexual in nature, but that reflect disparaging attitudes based on sex or gender.
Sexual harassment behaviors can be grouped into three broad categories:
(1) gender harassment; (2) unwanted sexual attention of a sexual nature that is directed
toward a person; and (3) sexual coercion.
Gender harassment involves unwelcome behaviors that disparage or objectify
others based on their sex or gender. Examples include: (1) derogatory or
unprofessional terms related to sex or gender; (2) unwelcome sexual teasing, joking,
comments, or questions; (3) exposure to sexually oriented material (e.g., photos,
videos, or written material); and (4) exposure to sexually-oriented conversations.

Unwanted sexual attention includes unwelcome behaviors of a sexual nature
that are directed toward an individual. Examples include: (1) unwelcome invasion of
personal space (e.g., touching, crowding, leaning over); (2) unwelcome communications
of a sexual nature; and (3) unwelcome sexually suggestive looks or gestures (e.g.,
emails, phone calls, notes, text messages, social media contacts).

Sexual coercion occurs when an individual is pressured or forced to engage in
unwanted sexual behavior. Examples include: (1) offer of preferential treatment in the
workplace in exchange for sexual favors (tangible employment action); (2) pressure for
sexual favors; (3) pressure for dates; (4) stalking (e.g., unwanted physical or electronic
intrusion into oneís personal life); and (5) sexual assault or attempted sexual assault.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 09:27:39 AM by partgypsy »

MrDelane

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #187 on: August 01, 2019, 09:23:54 AM »
Mr. Delane I appreciate your support, but what is missing is that it is considered sexual harassment say legally if it is something a "reasonable person" considers harassment. It is not purely subjective. For example a woman had a previous past terrible experience with a man wearing a cowboy hat. She gets in an elevator and someone gets in with a cowboy hat. She feels threatened. Even if she feels bad, it would not be considered harassment on that alone because it's what a reasonable person would consider harassment. I have to take training for my work. There are rules. The fact that it is "unwanted" is a key part of it. But it's not just because the woman or person "says so".

Totally fair point (though pedantically we could say that given her experience it is 'reasonable' that she feels threatened) - but I know the law doesn't take that into account, and there is no way we can know the past experience of those around us.  But that is partly the point (to me, anyhow).  Given that we do not know the past experience of those around us we should treat every interaction with respect and care (not that you were saying anything to the contrary, I'm rambling a bit here).

But I see what you're saying, and it's a fair point.
And yes, this is a messy gray area for a variety of reasons.

Again, I think this may be a limitation of the language that we use.  We seem to have one blunt blanket term for everything:  'harassment'
And much like it does not take into account the intent of the perpetrator, it also does not take into account the 'reasonableness' of the subject.
That term is used to cover situations where action was intended to elicit a response, where it was not intended to cause harm... situations which would call for legal action, and situations which are uncomfortable but do not cross the line into legal action.

But whether or not someone has a 'valid' reason for feeling harassed only seems to be an issue when it comes to legal recourse.  If someone tells me something I am doing makes them feel uncomfortable it seems clear that I should stop doing that thing.  If I continue doing that thing, I do it knowing full well it makes another person uncomfortable. I suppose I have the 'right' to do that, but we would probably all agree it makes me a somewhat callous and uncaring human being.

I don't know what the solution is - for the moment the best solution to me seems to be to give the benefit of the doubt to the subject, and to believe people when they tell us they feel harassed (again, not that you were saying the contrary). Whether or not the 'harasser' deserves any form of punishment is a whole other issue in my mind.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 09:44:02 AM by MrDelane »

MrDelane

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #188 on: August 01, 2019, 09:38:15 AM »
So this makes sense, by the literal definition of harassment this person is harassing her in the elevator.

But let's take another example. A black man goes to a public space and sits on a bench near a woman. She feels fear for her safety due to her prejudice. By the literal definition he is guilty of harassment. At this point I am not disputing that conclusion, however I would ask if given this circumstance you would feel comfortable using the would harassment to describe his actions?

What I'm getting at here is that I think it's worth recognizing that the literal definition of something isn't necessarily the way it's used in conversation. If we use a strictly literal definition of harassment, does the word lose some of its meaning?

That's an interesting scenario and one that crosses over two massive issues we have in society - harassment and racism.
I don't know the answer to that, and to be honest (to me) it would depend on the particulars.

One thing is clear in your scenario - the woman is prejudiced and that is wrong.  Obviously.
But that doesn't mean it still can't also be a form of harassment. 

I'm not a woman, so I don't want to speak for women... but if I try to imagine myself as a woman, sitting on a bench by myself... it would all depend on the body language and surrounding context (regardless of the skin color of the man involved).  Are there other people around?  How busy is this 'public area'? Are there other benches near by that were open?  Does the man sit literally right next to me, when he could have sat on the other end of the bench?  How much of my personal space is he encroaching on?  Is this a situation where I can get up and move, or am I somewhere where I need to stay for some external reason (in a waiting room, for example)?

So, I have no idea.  My gut reaction is yes, she could be racist and it could still be harassment.

I suppose this goes back to partgypsy's point about 'reasonableness.'

I do think that this touches on something interesting.  Given that many women have spoken up about how harassment is a common occurrence in their lives, it is not unreasonable for them to be vigilant of it.  Take the race aspect out of your example, and I can easily see how a 'reasonable' woman could feel threatened by any man sitting next to her, uninvited, on a public bench (depending on the particulars, as I mentioned above).

If I were continually approached by unwelcomed strangers I would also be on edge at anyone who approached me uninvited.  It's easy to give people the benefit of the doubt when we're not used to having to deal with negative side of it (or at least, that has been my experience).

But, the truth is, I'm a man... and even though I am a minority, I've been privileged enough to live a rather easy life.  So I'm probably not the best person to speak on the intersection of racism and harassment. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 09:40:18 AM by MrDelane »

MrDelane

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #189 on: August 01, 2019, 09:39:40 AM »
You're not mansplaining to us. You get that we get it. You're being an ally and an advocate. Thank you.

Thank you, Kris.
It's sometimes difficult to know when to speak and when to listen.

(It took me an unfortunately long time to learn that I still had a lot to learn)

Villanelle

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #190 on: August 01, 2019, 10:19:19 AM »
Trying to understand, and even challenging assumptions, is not mansplaining.  You aren't acting as an authority on women's experiences, which is where the problems arise.

As for the line of what is and is not harassment, I think the "reasonable man" standard, while certainly imperfect, is decent.  A reasonable (wo)man won't feel harassed by a man sitting next to her on a bench, or entering an elevator with her. 


ysette9

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #191 on: August 01, 2019, 10:42:27 AM »
At the end of the day I feel like a lot of this comes down to being a decent human being. Unfortunately we end up in the weeds trying to parse out behavior and coming up with textbook definitions where if somehow we could magically apply a Mr Rogers sort of definition about being a good neighbor we could avoid a lot of that.

I like what someone said above: if someone says what you are doing bothers them then the decent thing is to stop. Yes, ďitís a free country and I can be an asshole if I want toĒ, blah blah blah, but what is that serving you or anyone? You may not intend to be an asshole, but if that is how it is perceived, a reasonable person will take that into consideration and moderate behavior if it is a reasonable request. It may be unreasonable in the racism example above. It may be reasonable and the person doing it didnít intend that way but just needs a little feedback.

It does take strength if character to receive feedback about correcting your behavior and not taking offense or doubling down. Hell, I have a hard time turning off my emotions when my boss gives me feedback on what he thinks I need to do better, so I get it. We are all better off if we can be grown ups about it and keep open minds.

Iím probably asking for way too much here, arenít I?

Kris

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #192 on: August 01, 2019, 10:54:52 AM »
At the end of the day I feel like a lot of this comes down to being a decent human being. Unfortunately we end up in the weeds trying to parse out behavior and coming up with textbook definitions where if somehow we could magically apply a Mr Rogers sort of definition about being a good neighbor we could avoid a lot of that.

I like what someone said above: if someone says what you are doing bothers them then the decent thing is to stop. Yes, ďitís a free country and I can be an asshole if I want toĒ, blah blah blah, but what is that serving you or anyone? You may not intend to be an asshole, but if that is how it is perceived, a reasonable person will take that into consideration and moderate behavior if it is a reasonable request. It may be unreasonable in the racism example above. It may be reasonable and the person doing it didnít intend that way but just needs a little feedback.

It does take strength if character to receive feedback about correcting your behavior and not taking offense or doubling down. Hell, I have a hard time turning off my emotions when my boss gives me feedback on what he thinks I need to do better, so I get it. We are all better off if we can be grown ups about it and keep open minds.

Iím probably asking for way too much here, arenít I?

Considering how many times women who try to be frank with men who are behaving badly are met with dismissive "It's just a joke"s or "Lighten up"s or "It's a compliment, jeez"es... or "Maybe you should learn to be less sensitive"s (including in this thread)...

Probably.

ysette9

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #193 on: August 01, 2019, 10:56:47 AM »
Sigh

Hula Hoop

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #194 on: August 01, 2019, 11:01:07 AM »
I've always wondered what goes through the heads of all the street harassers.  The whole thing is so incredibly weird.  No matter how good looking I think a guy walking down the street is, I can't imagine making him uncomfortable by grabbing him or yelling something at him. I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

As an adult I often wondered if maybe they though I would actually have sex with them if they harassed me on the street. I can't imagine that every happening but could that be their motivation?  I think that there was a Sex and the City episode where Miranda actually asks a street harasser these questions.

PoutineLover

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #195 on: August 01, 2019, 11:14:17 AM »
I think I'll regret wading into this, but I find the topic fascinating. Some men seem to be willfully ignorant of the problem of street harassment, despite plenty of evidence and personal stories presented to them. It's disingenuous of them to pretend that they don't know it's happening, so why do they bother? It's not like women who have been harassed are just going to turn around and say well I guess you were right, my poor little female brain didn't realize that this kind man just wanted to complement my beautiful tits/ass/pussy while I was minding my own business walking down the street and it was so rude of me to flip him off.
And the men who do it are perfectly aware that it's a frightening and unnerving experience, they do it because it makes them feel powerful to put women in their place. It's just like rape has nothing to do with the attractiveness of woman and everything to do with the power of taking what they want.
There's no amount of convincing explanation that will change the minds of dedicated misogynists, the only reason to continue debating is to show other men and women what kind of harm is being done and perhaps make bystanders step in and prevent harassment when it happens.

honeybbq

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #196 on: August 01, 2019, 11:31:16 AM »

Because unfortunately, there are people who will cry "sexual harassment" when none was intended, and because in today's society, an accusation can be as devastating to a man's life as an actual conviction.

Rape is ok as long as consentual sex is what was intended?  Coolio. Glad we got that straight. It's all about intentions. Not facts or actual actions. Right on!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 11:34:06 AM by honeybbq »

KBecks

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #197 on: August 01, 2019, 11:48:13 AM »
I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

Excuse me while I go cry. That's horrible.

Davnasty

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #198 on: August 01, 2019, 12:01:06 PM »
I've always wondered what goes through the heads of all the street harassers.  The whole thing is so incredibly weird.  No matter how good looking I think a guy walking down the street is, I can't imagine making him uncomfortable by grabbing him or yelling something at him. I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

As an adult I often wondered if maybe they though I would actually have sex with them if they harassed me on the street. I can't imagine that every happening but could that be their motivation?  I think that there was a Sex and the City episode where Miranda actually asks a street harasser these questions.

I think a lot of people write this off as an absurd motivation, but I actually think it's one* of the reasons men do it. While it's extremely unlikely to be effective, the chances of sex with a random stranger walking by is 0, but the chance of sex with someone you speak to and get their attention is some non-zero %. If they bother several women a day for 10 years that would add up to 1000's, suddenly the odds look a bit more probable. And beyond that, they probably aren't putting as much thought into it as we are right now, so it may just be an animalistic urge. Is a monkey who throws rocks at a potential mate more likely to get some than a monkey who sits quietly and stares? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Heck, this is a common first tactic for kids in grade school. Who here was picked on by someone who had a crush on them as a kid? Maybe some people's emotional maturity level just hasn't progressed past a 4th grade level.

*I'm sure different people have different reasons and it's probably a combination of reasons for each person. The power dynamic and just getting a woman to notice them are probably the other big two.

gaja

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Re: Eyelash Extensions - wtf?
« Reply #199 on: August 01, 2019, 12:27:06 PM »
I've always wondered what goes through the heads of all the street harassers.  The whole thing is so incredibly weird.  No matter how good looking I think a guy walking down the street is, I can't imagine making him uncomfortable by grabbing him or yelling something at him. I grew up in NYC and for me the harassment started when I was 11 and started going to school by myself on public transit.  Why would an adult man sitting on a stoop yell at an 11 year old girl about her boobs or feel her up on the bus?  What on earth were those guys thinking? 

As an adult I often wondered if maybe they though I would actually have sex with them if they harassed me on the street. I can't imagine that every happening but could that be their motivation?  I think that there was a Sex and the City episode where Miranda actually asks a street harasser these questions.

I think a lot of people write this off as an absurd motivation, but I actually think it's one* of the reasons men do it. While it's extremely unlikely to be effective, the chances of sex with a random stranger walking by is 0, but the chance of sex with someone you speak to and get their attention is some non-zero %. If they bother several women a day for 10 years that would add up to 1000's, suddenly the odds look a bit more probable. And beyond that, they probably aren't putting as much thought into it as we are right now, so it may just be an animalistic urge. Is a monkey who throws rocks at a potential mate more likely to get some than a monkey who sits quietly and stares? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Heck, this is a common first tactic for kids in grade school. Who here was picked on by someone who had a crush on them as a kid? Maybe some people's emotional maturity level just hasn't progressed past a 4th grade level.

*I'm sure different people have different reasons and it's probably a combination of reasons for each person. The power dynamic and just getting a woman to notice them are probably the other big two.

There were some studies done on dickpics that suggested the men continue doing it because it actually works. Yes, almost all women find them disgusting, but men sending dickpics ignore the negative and non-respons, and focus on the 1:100 000 that replies something that can be considered positive.

And that is also part of why so many women experience dickpics and harassment, and so few men admit to doing it. Those who are doing this type of thing keep long hours and work hard on reaching a lot of victims.