Author Topic: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"  (Read 13128 times)

catmustache

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"Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« on: February 04, 2013, 10:22:43 AM »
I read this today and it grated on my nerves:  http://thebillfold.com/2013/01/is-there-anyone-on-earth-with-as-much-debt-as-me/

I'm not sure what the author had in mind when writing this, but it came across (to me, at least) as yeah, I owe a ton of money, but I don't care. Woo-hoo! Grr.

gecko10x

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2013, 10:30:48 AM »
I actually found it funny and fairly self-reflective. The author sounds regretful for choosing that career/debt... but at the same time confused about their own feelings. That's how it came across to me.

jpo

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 10:35:31 AM »
I would bet arebelspy has more debt (and assets!) than she does...

madgeylou

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2013, 10:39:06 AM »
I read this today and it grated on my nerves:  http://thebillfold.com/2013/01/is-there-anyone-on-earth-with-as-much-debt-as-me/

I'm not sure what the author had in mind when writing this, but it came across (to me, at least) as yeah, I owe a ton of money, but I don't care. Woo-hoo! Grr.

i like the billfold, but a lot of their stuff is complainypants maximus. a lot of the contributors seem to have this feeling like, "well, the whole world is going to hell anyway, who cares if i owe $100K or $120K."

i remember one of the editors -- a seemingly thoughtful woman named logan -- saying something like "sometimes i just want to have the experience of drinking fancy drinks at a bar reading my book and i don't care that i have to go into debt to get it." she also writes a lot about how guilty she feels for letting her parents support her. a classic example of what the millionaire next door talks about -- how people weaken their kids by supporting them financially.

and they had a link to this video the other day, which was about a comedian who has been living far beyond her means for years and now is like $60K in debt and has a new show on MTV and she's like "my whole life plan has been based on the idea that i will make it as a comedian, and i am, so, yay."

meanwhile, ugh, how many artists / performers / entrepreneurs do you know who've said the same thing and are now, like, telemarketing at age 40, trying to make ends meet? it is not a beautiful sight!

when your life plan depends upon someone else "discovering" you or "saving" you, that's not a plan, it's a daydream.

anyway, why do i read the billfold again? there are some thoughtful discussions on the site, too. i particularly liked the first comment on this article about the relationship between money and depression.

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 10:56:00 AM »
I want to like The Billfold so much, but so many of their articles make me roll my eyes and sigh. madgeylou, most of Logan's writing drives me crazy because I just want to shake her--gently, but firmly--but I do appreciate her opening up about her depression and anxiety and how that influences her spending. I can definitely relate.

That said, I kind of liked this article. The writer is somewhat self-aware of his or her situation. I think many high-earning, high-debt people don't realize that they have golden handcuffs on until waaay later in the game. But of course, it's a false comparison to compare needing to buy new things because of bedbugs and "needing" to buy a new car because all your coworkers have one.

If you really want to give yourself an aneurysm, read some money-related articles on xoJane:

http://www.xojane.com/issues/im-130k-in-debt-and-fine-with-it
http://www.xojane.com/family/im-32-and-my-family-bankrolls-my-lifestyle

Phoebe

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 11:19:20 AM »
+1 Gecko

I actually found this honest and self-reflective.  The author says they have golden handcuffs and that based on their choices they could not afford to make much less.

Phoebe

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 11:30:05 AM »
Quote
If you really want to give yourself an aneurysm, read some money-related articles on xoJane:

http://www.xojane.com/issues/im-130k-in-debt-and-fine-with-it
http://www.xojane.com/family/im-32-and-my-family-bankrolls-my-lifestyle

Okay these ones made my eyes bleed.


CNM

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 04:39:39 PM »
I also found thebillfold's article reflective more than anything else.  The Billfold isn't a personal finance blog like a traditional personal finance blog where advice is given, face punches administered, etc.  It's more like a place for people to discuss their relationships with money.  I agree that sometimes it can be whineypants-y, but it gives me a different perspective that I can appreciate.

destron

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 08:47:01 AM »
Wow, some of the comments in the xojane article were frightening.

> Agreed. I attended college and three graduate programs, about 80% on student loans (yay, underfunded humanities programs).

Um, wow. 4 humanities degrees on loans and you think the problem is that humanities is underfunded? I think the rest of the world would love to have the government pay for 10 years of college and life expenses without any loans too.

> Yeah, my boyfriend has seven loans. Three are government, which are peachy to deal with. But the other four are all Wells Fargo private and after his deferment ended, they turned into unbelievable fuckheads. It sucks. He had to declare bankruptcy on all his other debt just so he can make his student loan payments.
The judge at his bankruptcy hearing apparently hears that story a lot. :/
Ideas are bulletproof.

Oh, your poor boyfriend! Those bad men who wanted him to pay back the money he borrowed (after giving him a grace period)! I'm not sure who the fuckheads are in this story.

> I was having a meltdown about my student loans the other day and my mom just pointed out that there isn't debtors prison anymore and the worst that can happen is I will owe money forever and have horrible credit. Worrying about that shit is exhausting....

Sure thing, but don't expect to ever be able to stop working (unless you marry someone who is willing to be your wage slave to finance your spending problem).

momo

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 09:51:24 AM »
I like how the authors of Billfold discuss difficult topics like depression, money, medication, emotions, and how it affects them from a woman's perspective. However the site itself is not something I'd recommend to people who already are undisciplined, drowning in debt, or otherwise utterly lost in the deep personal finance woods without a viable escape plan.

MMM is far more positive and offers direct, effective, proven to work solutions. And that is something I feel the Billfold does not focus on enough. Less whining and denial, focus more on finding and/or creating solutions. Perhaps this is just my male mindset that focuses on understanding then resolving concerns (lets make it better), but the Billfold "voice" sounds like people unwilling to face reality as it is and not as they wish it to be. I find little to no accountability or reason to the actions described in the articles, which is quite sad and do not serve as good examples to the readers.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 12:44:30 PM by Stashtastic Momo »

adam

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 11:44:32 AM »
God, I wish I only had as much debt as she does. lol :(

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 11:48:27 AM »
I so like how the authors of Billfold discuss difficult topics like depression, money, medication, emotions, and how it affects them from a woman's perspective. However the site itself is not something I'd recommend to people who already are undisciplined, drowning in debt, or otherwise utterly lost in the deep personal finance woods without a viable escape plan.

MMM is far more positive and offers direct, effective, proven to work solutions. And that is something I feel the Billfold does not focus on enough. Less whining and denial, focus more on finding and/or creating solutions. Perhaps this is just my male mindset that focuses on understanding then resolving concerns (lets make it better), but the Billfold "voice" sounds like people unwilling to face reality as it is and not as they wish it to be. I find little to no accountability or reason to the actions described in the articles, which is quite sad and do not serve as good examples to the readers.

I've never thought of The Billford as a women's money site. One of the editors and many of the contributors are men, no? However, I do think that Logan's writing is stronger (or maybe just more memorable) than Mike's, and that definitely influences the overall tone of the website.

I think TB is a good place for financial flailing, wallowing, and what-the-eff-am-I-doing, and honestly, that's an important outlet to have, but I agree that there's often a lot of entitlement and rarely personal accountability. Lots of well-written navel-gazing. Nonetheless, I visit it multiple times a day.

mlipps

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 11:54:28 AM »
I read this today and it grated on my nerves:  http://thebillfold.com/2013/01/is-there-anyone-on-earth-with-as-much-debt-as-me/

I'm not sure what the author had in mind when writing this, but it came across (to me, at least) as yeah, I owe a ton of money, but I don't care. Woo-hoo! Grr.

i like the billfold, but a lot of their stuff is complainypants maximus. a lot of the contributors seem to have this feeling like, "well, the whole world is going to hell anyway, who cares if i owe $100K or $120K."

i remember one of the editors -- a seemingly thoughtful woman named logan -- saying something like "sometimes i just want to have the experience of drinking fancy drinks at a bar reading my book and i don't care that i have to go into debt to get it." she also writes a lot about how guilty she feels for letting her parents support her. a classic example of what the millionaire next door talks about -- how people weaken their kids by supporting them financially.

and they had a link to this video the other day, which was about a comedian who has been living far beyond her means for years and now is like $60K in debt and has a new show on MTV and she's like "my whole life plan has been based on the idea that i will make it as a comedian, and i am, so, yay."

meanwhile, ugh, how many artists / performers / entrepreneurs do you know who've said the same thing and are now, like, telemarketing at age 40, trying to make ends meet? it is not a beautiful sight!

when your life plan depends upon someone else "discovering" you or "saving" you, that's not a plan, it's a daydream.

anyway, why do i read the billfold again? there are some thoughtful discussions on the site, too. i particularly liked the first comment on this article about the relationship between money and depression.

I used to read an author's work named Logan at Bundle.com and as soon as you said that name I got really excited hoping it was the same person (it is). Thanks for sharing this site. Unsure how I feel about the original article...

CNM

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 01:51:29 PM »
I like how the authors of Billfold discuss difficult topics like depression, money, medication, emotions, and how it affects them from a woman's perspective. However the site itself is not something I'd recommend to people who already are undisciplined, drowning in debt, or otherwise utterly lost in the deep personal finance woods without a viable escape plan.

MMM is far more positive and offers direct, effective, proven to work solutions. And that is something I feel the Billfold does not focus on enough. Less whining and denial, focus more on finding and/or creating solutions. Perhaps this is just my male mindset that focuses on understanding then resolving concerns (lets make it better), but the Billfold "voice" sounds like people unwilling to face reality as it is and not as they wish it to be. I find little to no accountability or reason to the actions described in the articles, which is quite sad and do not serve as good examples to the readers.

Yeah, The Billfold isn't a "women's" money site.  The editor is a man and their articles seem pretty gender neutral to me.

About the whineyness, I wonder if that comes from their demographics.  I imagine (I don't know, I'm guessing here) that most of their readers and writers are recent college grads, in their 20s, discovering for the first time that it's not as easy to make it as they thought it would be.  I went through the same thing when I realized that the only places that would hire me were for menial secretarial positions for minimum wage (or maybe slightly more) with no benefits.  Putting all that budgeting stuff together and figuring out next steps is not easy.  There are a lot of growing pains in that process. 

momo

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 03:22:30 PM »
I like how the authors of Billfold discuss difficult topics like depression, money, medication, emotions, and how it affects them from a woman's perspective. However the site itself is not something I'd recommend to people who already are undisciplined, drowning in debt, or otherwise utterly lost in the deep personal finance woods without a viable escape plan.

MMM is far more positive and offers direct, effective, proven to work solutions. And that is something I feel the Billfold does not focus on enough. Less whining and denial, focus more on finding and/or creating solutions. Perhaps this is just my male mindset that focuses on understanding then resolving concerns (lets make it better), but the Billfold "voice" sounds like people unwilling to face reality as it is and not as they wish it to be. I find little to no accountability or reason to the actions described in the articles, which is quite sad and do not serve as good examples to the readers.

Yeah, The Billfold isn't a "women's" money site.  The editor is a man and their articles seem pretty gender neutral to me.

About the whineyness, I wonder if that comes from their demographics.  I imagine (I don't know, I'm guessing here) that most of their readers and writers are recent college grads, in their 20s, discovering for the first time that it's not as easy to make it as they thought it would be.  I went through the same thing when I realized that the only places that would hire me were for menial secretarial positions for minimum wage (or maybe slightly more) with no benefits.  Putting all that budgeting stuff together and figuring out next steps is not easy.  There are a lot of growing pains in that process.

Perhaps it is just me but the whining and pity party is a major turnoff especially with it is the general tone in the article listed in the original post. Perhaps the site isn't a "women's" money site, but the author's tone for the article cited in this thread (and others throughout the site) just whined and demonstrated a complete lack of accountability.

Reading about eight of the top articles felt like a serious juvenille whine-fest. I completely agree there are lots of growing pains in our 20s, but how about focusing on fixing these concerns? I found the most useful sections on Billfold were http://thebillfold.com/category/how-tos/ but even then, it lacks the positivity and comprehensive mindset shift that MMM encourages us to develop.

Lots of us struggled and still are stuggling with our finances and our FI journey. However, I find the key difference is "ownership". Maybe MMM is not for everyone in their 20s, but there are quite a few 20 somethings on MMM and other sites like Get Rich Slowly that do not express entitlement or whining. If anything I read about more and more 20-30 somethings who want to get a financial life. Isn't it true, everyone can benefit from taking greater responsibility for their financial actions? I am reminded of MMM's stoicism article where he recommend "focus on what you can control" and then DO SOMETHING about it.

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 03:33:41 PM »
Perhaps it is just me but the whining and pity party is a major turnoff especially with it is the general tone in the article listed in the original post. Perhaps the site isn't a "women's" money site, but the author's tone for the article cited in this thread (and others throughout the site) just whined and demonstrated a complete lack of accountability.

Not to get off-topic, but are you equating whining, pity parties, and a lack of accountability with women, or was that just weird phrasing?

Sunflower

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 04:29:35 PM »
Not to get off-topic, but are you equating whining, pity parties, and a lack of accountability with women, or was that just weird phrasing?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that my 'woman brain' also
focuses on understanding then resolving concerns (lets make it better)

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 04:43:18 PM »
Not to get off-topic, but are you equating whining, pity parties, and a lack of accountability with women, or was that just weird phrasing?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that my 'woman brain' also
focuses on understanding then resolving concerns (lets make it better)

Oh man, I missed the "male mindset" in Momo's original post. Yeah, that's shitty.

Momo, sorry you're such a boss, and wimmenz are too busy trying to make it better with wimpy feelings and words.

grantmeaname

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 05:01:26 PM »
That's constructive.

Sunflower

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 05:40:40 PM »
That's constructive.

While I've never found any of Stashtastic Momo's other posts overtly sexist, in this thread he's dug into the position that the blog comes across as a women's site because of the inherent whining.

Momo - in the same way you defend '20 somethings' as a group with diverse attitudes, I hope you realize that women aren't inherently whiny. I'm sure you would agree that there are a lot of really bad-ass women on this forum who do amazing things with their finances, ride bikes, build houses, and ask for advice in converting their 'whiny' husbands to the way of the mustache. (Sometimes we don't realize our inherent social prejudices until a few other people get offended.)

grantmeaname

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2013, 05:52:06 PM »
That's one (particularly negative) way you could interpret what he's saying, yes.

But maybe he just came to his perspective from the fact that the site is called "the billfold", it's part of a network with a blog called "the hairpin", the linked piece was written by a woman, the editor with more of a voice in the site is a woman, the site's audience is dramatically more female than male (thanks, Alexa, and it's commenters are dramatically more female than male. Perhaps the 46 other posts momo's made not conflating whining with womanhood could lead you to take the slightly less offended viewpoint that he thinks the site is whiny and female, not that the site is whiny because it's female.

madgeylou

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2013, 06:08:35 PM »
That's one (particularly negative) way you could interpret what he's saying, yes.

But maybe he just came to his perspective from the fact that the site is called "the billfold", it's part of a network with a blog called "the hairpin", the linked piece was written by a woman, the editor with more of a voice in the site is a woman, the site's audience is dramatically more female than male (thanks, Alexa, and it's commenters are dramatically more female than male. Perhaps the 46 other posts momo's made not conflating whining with womanhood could lead you to take the slightly less offended viewpoint that he thinks the site is whiny and female, not that the site is whiny because it's female.

I'm not gonna get into the sexism point -- I just want to point out that The Billfold is also on the same network as The Awl, The Wirecutter, and Splitsider, all of which skew far more heavily male.

And The Billfold's other editor Mike also has a very strong voice and an interesting point of view as a grown Asian man who helps financially support his parents. He's extremely responsible with money and often has good advice.

Just wanted to say, I read me some ladyblogs, and The Billfold is not one of them. I don't find that it feels particularly girly at all, though it does come across as leftist, urban, and feminist. I read the site through my RSS reader, though, so I don't see many of the comments.

One last thing -- a billfold is a wallet, not a purse. Dudes and ladies both carry them.

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2013, 06:53:35 PM »
That's constructive.

Aww, don't be cross at me, Grant. And don't make me go for an easy rebuttal by going through your post history and quoting you being flippant somewhere. ;)

Momo, for the record and to avoid hurt feelings, I don't think you're sexist because I don't know you. You said something sexist, and I and other people here called you on it. I, personally, think what you said was shitty, but hey, I ain't even that mad. It's pretty garden-variety sexism to me.

grantmeaname

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2013, 07:04:17 PM »
And don't make me go for an easy rebuttal by going through your post history and quoting you being flippant somewhere. ;)
Me? I would never! :)

I definitely see how you're reading it that way, but I don't see it like that, I guess. I think Chemistay's response was a much more productive way to deal with it, and I think it's a splendid example of how the conversation should go, though I of all people am guilty of the cheap jab more often than the constructive explanation. Maybe that's why it stuck out to me...

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2013, 07:15:55 PM »
No, I agree: Chemistay's response was way more constructive than mine. I have a hair-trigger temper on "women are so emotional and whiny" stereotype, and while I've managed to bite my online tongue in other cases, I couldn't stop myself here. Debate 101 fail.

To get this back on topic, here is a Billfold post that I rather liked: http://thebillfold.com/2012/03/heres-some-advice-on-saving-money/
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 07:20:58 PM by mustachecat »

lhamo

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2013, 08:58:16 PM »
Don't want to get into the discussion about whether these sites are gendered, but it did occur to me while reading this thread that there are parallels between different types of sites and the approach/discourse they promote.

Sites like The Billfold that some have characterized as "whiney" are kind of like talk therapy.  It may be useful for some people for some period of time as they are working through their issues and trying to figure out how they got where they are.  But it can easily become just a constant rehasing of all the same old issues without any movement forward.  And it can also pretty quickly become an exercise in finding external forces to blame for ones problems.

MMM is a bit more like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.  The focus isn't on talking endlessly about what the problem is.  Yes, you have to identify the problem.  But then you also need to develop successful strategies for how to DEAL with that problem and move yourself to a better place. 

I'm a huge fan of CBT, so maybe that is why I also prefer sites like this that are problem/solution focused and forward looking. 

unitsinc

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 08:32:03 AM »
No, I agree: Chemistay's response was way more constructive than mine. I have a hair-trigger temper on "women are so emotional and whiny" stereotype, and while I've managed to bite my online tongue in other cases, I couldn't stop myself here. Debate 101 fail.


While I'm not remotely trying to be sexist, there is some slightly humorous irony right there.

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 08:40:11 AM »
I did have a funny parenthetical in my original post about the irony, but removed it later because, you know what, people wouldn't call an exasperated man "so emotional"; they'd just be like, "He's just fed-up!"

I don't mean to keep pulling this thread off-topic. It's probably because I'm on my period, and my mood swings are crazy...

THAT joke, I'm keeping in. ;)

unitsinc

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 10:17:52 AM »
I did have a funny parenthetical in my original post about the irony, but removed it later because, you know what, people wouldn't call an exasperated man "so emotional"; they'd just be like, "He's just fed-up!"

I don't mean to keep pulling this thread off-topic. It's probably because I'm on my period, and my mood swings are crazy...

THAT joke, I'm keeping in. ;)

Haha, always glad to see someone that can have a bit of fun at their own expense. :)

momo

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 05:29:00 PM »
Chemistay and mustachecat, thank you for sharing. I appreciate your comments and respect your opinions. I feel there is one detail you may be overlooking. I never said "women are inherently whiny". One of my larger concerns with the Billfold site, it reads like a diary of complainers who do little to help themselves. Your mileage may differ. We can agree to disagree on the tones expressed in the site. Please do not confuse how I think the Billfold site is whiny and female, and equate that with to how I view the entire female gender. To clarify in my earlier posts I equated whining, pity parties, and a lack of accountability with the actions described by the author in the original Billfold article and many other articles. And perhaps this is my own concern. When I read articles I want to improve and learn from others how they overcame setbacks, rather than just complaints. Anyone can complain incessantly, but few people demonstrate an actual willingness to assume ownership by dealing with their hardships.

Wouldn't you agree for most online communities, we seek to share and more importantly LEARN from others who solved their concerns? And isnít learning more than venting, the primary reason why we are all here on MMM? I am here to learn concrete successful strategies to improve. I do not know about other readers, but I appreciate MMM because he is direct, even forceful at times like a good coach pushing us past our comfort zone. We may never know what wise counsel MMM would share with the individual in the first Billfold article. But it should come as no surprise that MMM stares at challenges squarely in the face and punches it. And I think his positive badass can do attitude, is certainly worth emulating, donít you?

Lastly, to expand on how our actions demonstrate accountability and how each of us create our reality, we don't need to look further than ourselves. I think it is fair to say even in own our lives, most of us know someone who is always complaining and negative but rarely, does anything to improve their situation, right? So how long would you choose to allow their toxicity to influence your life? This is an interesting question and as you ponder it perhaps MMMís great optimism article http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/03/the-practical-benefits-of-outrageous-optimism/ , for people who practice negativity might help guide you. MMM wrote, ďWake up, Dude! Youíre doing more than just discussing your situation right now.. Youíre creating your own reality!Ē Indeed whatever we chose to focus on becomes our reality. To further expand how each of us creates our reality with our attitudes, try reading strategies by leadership mentor John Maxwell. He teaches, "if you donít like your situation, take responsibility for your attitude. Change it. Your attitude is totally in your controlhttp://www.success.com/articles/1097--maxwell-making-attitude-your-greatest-asset
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:31:06 PM by Stashtastic Momo »

mustachecat

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2013, 06:29:03 AM »
Hey Momo, I appreciate your response. I think that everyone here--you, me, everyone--agrees with The Billfold is an epic whinefest much of the time; that such whinefest is no good; and that action-oriented optimism like MMM's is the way to go.

I'd be happy to parse out exactly why I read your comments as generalizing about all women, but it might be easier (or not) simply to do this: replace your mentions of "women" with "young people" and your references to men/maleness with "older people."

I like how the authors of Billfold discuss difficult topics like depression, money, medication, emotions, and how it affects them from a young person's perspective. However the site itself is not something I'd recommend to people who already are undisciplined, drowning in debt, or otherwise utterly lost in the deep personal finance woods without a viable escape plan.

MMM is far more positive and offers direct, effective, proven to work solutions. And that is something I feel the Billfold does not focus on enough. Less whining and denial, focus more on finding and/or creating solutions. Perhaps this is just my older person's mindset that focuses on understanding then resolving concerns (lets make it better), but the Billfold "voice" sounds like people unwilling to face reality as it is and not as they wish it to be. I find little to no accountability or reason to the actions described in the articles, which is quite sad and do not serve as good examples to the readers.

Perhaps it is just me but the whining and pity party is a major turnoff especially with it is the general tone in the article listed in the original post. Perhaps the site isn't a "young person's" money site, but the author's tone for the article cited in this thread (and others throughout the site) just whined and demonstrated a complete lack of accountability.

I understand now that you don't intend any generalizations; but it was very confusing to me, especially because I and others agree with you on the whining and lack of accountability.

KGZotU

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2013, 07:26:33 PM »
mustachecat: I feel like you may be able to resolve your confusion by looking at the context of what Momo was responding to. Here's how I read it:

Quote from: Momo, paraphrased
Quote from: CNM, paraphrased
Quote from: Momo, paraphrased
I like that the site addresses stuff from a woman's perspective. I don't like that it's whiny.
The site doesn't just address issues from a female perspective.
That may be true, but it still stands that the site is whiny.

In his original post, Momo addressed the site as being feminine and the site as being whiny as two separate issues. When CNM rebutted against the site being feminine, Momo's response confirmed that the two issues are separate by saying that whether or not the site is feminine doesn't impact whether it is whiny.

capital

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2013, 07:33:23 PM »
As a resident of Brooklyn with a large beard and fixed-gear bicycle (and computer engineering degree, and the good fortune to have frugal parents who set me up for an independent life), I enjoy reading the Billfold when I need to laugh at hipster money problems.

ams

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2013, 12:29:10 AM »
It's become quite a tiresome thing on the internet these days when a man says something sexist, a woman points it out, and all the men on the forum pile on to say "Oh no! You just misunderstood him!".  Look, sexism happens. Nice people say sexist crap all the time, because society is sexist (duh). When you're lucky enough to have a cool woman point out that something you said was sexist, just take it in and try to learn from it instead of getting all complainypants and living in denial. (There's the irony, actually, because Moma said he was annoyed with the Billfold because people there were unwilling to face reality)

I am a woman, long time reader, just getting into the forums. Unfortunately this was one of the first threads I read, and I thought to myself "Oh god, not this again". I expect that this blog will be male-dominant, but I thought that most users would be better than this sexism-denial thing.

And no, I don't think Moma was misunderstood. He said, "Perhaps this is just my male mindset that..(something positive), but the Billfold "voice" sounds like ...(something negative)".  That is pretty slam-dunk sexist talk. If you don't get it, sit down and think about it. Maybe put on your long underwear and ride your bike to the library to check out some books on the subject.

marty998

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2013, 01:47:56 AM »
It's so easy to be misunderstood online, context and body language tell you so much more about meaning.

ams....it's not all like that on this forum. Sure there is the usual facepunching-judgemental tough love but the reason the facepunch is given is because you make a stupid decision, not because you have made a gender stereotype decision.

I may have missed the point of the above arguments, but I don't care. Reading walls of arguments when both sides are misinterpreting eachother is too hard when you are drunk on a Friday evening
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 01:49:37 AM by marty998 »

arebelspy

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2013, 07:52:48 AM »
I am a woman, long time reader, just getting into the forums. Unfortunately this was one of the first threads I read, and I thought to myself "Oh god, not this again". I expect that this blog will be male-dominant, but I thought that most users would be better than this sexism-denial thing.

As of this post, this forum has about 3600 threads.  About 3 of them got sidetracked into a sexism debate over a comment (made innocently or not).  You have plenty of reading you can do without seeing any of that. Trust me, I've read most of them.  ;)

Welcome to the forums!
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about us, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

Sunflower

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2013, 10:09:51 AM »
arebelspy is right (as usual), there are lots of productive threads that don't contain a hint of sexism. I'm definitely to blame in at least one other thread that devolved into a similar argument. This community is so full of intelligent, understanding people trying to make productive changes to their lives that  I'm usually shocked when someone says something like 'my male mindset' and I (foolishly) believe that pointing out the sexism will cause someone to stop at think about what he/she just said.

Welcome to the forums!

chucklesmcgee

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2013, 12:18:27 PM »
I think at some point debt becomes so enormous that people become hopeless, give up on every developing a stash and instead live for the moment, spending what they can and making minimum payments. I think it's the same sort of psychology underpinning conspicuous consumption in the ghetto, with people dropping more money than they make in a year on car rims and flashy clothes and bling.

ams

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2013, 01:09:23 PM »
Thanks for the welcome! I won't let this thread get me down. Onward and upward!

KGZotU

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 04:01:04 PM »
arebelspy is right (as usual), there are lots of productive threads that don't contain a hint of sexism. I'm definitely to blame in at least one other thread that devolved into a similar argument. This community is so full of intelligent, understanding people trying to make productive changes to their lives that  I'm usually shocked when someone says something like 'my male mindset' and I (foolishly) believe that pointing out the sexism will cause someone to stop at think about what he/she just said.

Chemistay, I think sexism is an important issue to discuss openly and publicly. I appreciate that people here are doing that.

I think that if you're going to get someone to understand the implications of their actions, implications that could be unsettling to the person, then you have to approach them carefully. If somebody doesn't want to be a tool of oppression, you will reach them better by saying, "Here's how to achieve your goal of doing less harm," than by saying, "You're a tool of oppression."

Here's something I said in a pm regarding this thread:

Quote
[In his comment regarding the male mindset]I think Momo was responding to the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. A lot of us took it on good authority that if we wanted to be true sensitivenewageguys we had to stop bringing all this male problem solving stuff to our women. I know that for a long time after reading that book I tried to make accommodations to women by talking less to them about solving problems.

I don't know if the premise of the book is true or not. I suspect that women don't mind talking solutions so much as they mind solutions being imposed on them paternalistically by any male relation.

If Momo was responding with his knowledge of that book, then the most charitable interpretation I have is that he was talking about the negative potentiality of the female mode. As in, if females prefer support to solutions then the positive potential from that is establishing strong communities of emotional support and the negative potential is for devolving into whininess. The male proclivity for problem solving would have its own positive (get all your problems solved) and negative (fail to learn endurance and acceptance, alienate your relations by assuming you can solve their problems, etc.).

If that's the case, then I read Momo as saying that not only does whininess suck, but he's not even equipped to understand it because as a male he wouldn't be inclined towards that mode of failure (as a man, he would fail in different ways).

Is that inherently sexist? Maybe. I mean, in the theoretical sense he might be mistaking the effects of a history of patriarchy (women don't like having solutions imposed on them) for a difference between the sexes (women prefer support over solutions). OTOH I see that it could come from a misguided attempt at accommodation.

It turns out that being sexist is something a writer can do without trying. A writer can even be sexist by trying too hard not to be sexist. That's a very confusing and difficult situation for many people. You as a reader can be right about something being sexist. And to avoid alienating the person you are trying to help fix, you have to investigate and empathize with their motives.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 06:42:17 PM by KGZotU »

SpendyMcSpend

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2013, 02:29:19 PM »
Perhaps the site isn't a "women's" money site, but the author's tone for the article cited in this thread (and others throughout the site) just whined and demonstrated a complete lack of accountability.



I find this comment offensive.  Are you saying that the author's whiny tone and lack of accountability makes it more feminine than a tone that would be more decisive and solutions-oriented (a MAN's tone).  Not sure if you just made a mistake here or you really are sexist.  Plenty of women are not whiny and are accountable.

SpendyMcSpend

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Re: "Is there anyone on earth with as much debt as me"
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2013, 02:34:50 PM »
Oops didn't realize this had already been discussed.