Author Topic: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?  (Read 35410 times)

talltexan

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #100 on: February 01, 2016, 08:51:01 AM »
My sister-in-law lost her shit at TG dinner and started venting to her in-laws (which are also my in-laws) about all the "junk" they're using to fill up her home. My in-laws--graciously--responded with very compact gift cards, experiential gifts, etc., for Christmas.

When sister-in-law returned from celebrating Christmas with her own parents, however, there were Two of those little electric cars that toddlers drive all over. I guess one person's junk is another person's treasure.

Making Cookies

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #101 on: February 01, 2016, 02:05:33 PM »
The last time we talked she admonished me because she sent another box of randomness (used books, all very out of date/worn, some in foreign languages we don't know) and she said the kids had not sent her "proper thank you cards" in the mail. Um, I thought I called you and said thank you right when we got it? Then she scolded me that I had said thank you but the kids needed to mail her thank you cards because some of it was for them. Uh, okay, veering into crazy old lady territory. News flash: they probably didn't even see what was in that box because I was pretty certain none of it would interest them, and they don't use snail mail for . . . anything.

Oh geez - the requisite thank you card. My mother is the same way. I could give her a thank you, a kiss on the cheek and a phone call and I'd still be getting hints that I need to send that ridiculous thank you card. I've come to believe it's more about her making me do something (control) than the thanks.

Years ago when I went to visit my grandmother she served me birthday cake. As she walked out of the room I asked whose birthday it was - she replied that it was a piece of my birthday cake from when I was three years old! (23+ year old cake!)

I nearly choked and threw it out the door while she was out of the room. of course she offered me a second piece which I politely declined. Apparently frozen in the deep freeze all those years. Wonder how many power outages it weathered? ;)

Miss Havisham comes to mind every time I think of that cake. 

Making Cookies

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #102 on: February 01, 2016, 02:10:14 PM »
We have this problem with my in-laws. Some of it just plain junk that we offload to Goodwill almost immediately upon coming home (jokey aprons, kitchen gadgets and cookbooks), but some is pricey stuff like a collection of silverware that my MIL insists on gifting us pieces of at Christmas. This is despite us having told her that we did not want silver when we got married as it wouldn't get used and it was a big hassle with the upkeep. Not sure what to do with it so it lives in our closet.

We have two sets of china and one set of silver. We'll never use it. Ever. I'm in my 40s and have never, ever eaten off of China and maybe once with silver. We're just not formal people. Never aspired to be. I know my grandparents' generations were all about achieving a China set and silver.

We'll wait a few more years and maybe re-home it. No desire to have a garage sale. Don't want strangers on my property and certainly don't want them gazing at the other contents of our garage. Good way to invite a robbery around here.

I need to re-read this thread and then rush around the house piling things by the back door that are going away immediately.

We too have the 4500 unopened baseball cards someone gave us. Might be worth something. And it might not. Not sure I have the motivation to search through them to see. All 1990s cards.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 02:28:55 PM by Jethrosnose »

Rural

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2016, 05:29:04 PM »
Parental units came for dinner last night.

My Mom sits our 7yr old on the couch and tells him she has something VERY IMPORTANT for him. Looks him in the eye and tells him she NEEDS him to do something special for her, then out from her purse comes her past three years used Christmas cards.

The VERY IMPORTANT task is that he is to cut out the pictures on each card and make a beautiful collage for her. She then sits with him and goes through each card individually telling him how important each of her friends is and showing how people who REALLY care send her Christmas cards. We don't send cards. By the end the kid thinks he has Solomon's treasure, and we have a project we don't want. As she goes out the door, she says to just throw out the collage when he's done, its the doing that matters, not the outcome.

We just threw out all our cards last week. Now we have three years worth of hers to toss. Nice.


You know, mother or no, I'd be reminding this person that she sees her grandchild entirely at my discretion.

GPendragon

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #104 on: February 02, 2016, 06:15:24 AM »
I was reading that expecting her to sit there make the collage with him for an afternoon. Sad.

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #105 on: February 02, 2016, 06:22:57 AM »
Parental units came for dinner last night.

My Mom sits our 7yr old on the couch and tells him she has something VERY IMPORTANT for him. Looks him in the eye and tells him she NEEDS him to do something special for her, then out from her purse comes her past three years used Christmas cards.

The VERY IMPORTANT task is that he is to cut out the pictures on each card and make a beautiful collage for her. She then sits with him and goes through each card individually telling him how important each of her friends is and showing how people who REALLY care send her Christmas cards. We don't send cards. By the end the kid thinks he has Solomon's treasure, and we have a project we don't want. As she goes out the door, she says to just throw out the collage when he's done, its the doing that matters, not the outcome.

We just threw out all our cards last week. Now we have three years worth of hers to toss. Nice.


You know, mother or no, I'd be reminding this person that she sees her grandchild entirely at my discretion.

We've been scheming. How much does it cost to mail a glitter-heavy collage packed in confetti?
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Making Cookies

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #106 on: February 02, 2016, 08:52:27 AM »
Be sure to put some glitter between the box and the brown paper wrapper so she gets it everywhere... ;)

"You get what you give" I've always been told. My paternal grandparents gave us alot of their time. We adored them. My maternal grandparents less so we were never as close.

Grandparents don't figure very heavily in our kids' minds b/c neither set spends alot of one on one time with our kids. Sort of sad to me b/c my paternal grandparents were so important to me.

I'd like our kids to have that close relationship with their own grandparents. Ain't going to happen though.

My wife and I make up for that as much as we can with family outings and time together at home.

Edited: 'cause I never, ever get my posts right the first six times...
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 08:19:34 PM by Jethrosnose »

Rural

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #107 on: February 02, 2016, 04:33:19 PM »
Parental units came for dinner last night.

My Mom sits our 7yr old on the couch and tells him she has something VERY IMPORTANT for him. Looks him in the eye and tells him she NEEDS him to do something special for her, then out from her purse comes her past three years used Christmas cards.

The VERY IMPORTANT task is that he is to cut out the pictures on each card and make a beautiful collage for her. She then sits with him and goes through each card individually telling him how important each of her friends is and showing how people who REALLY care send her Christmas cards. We don't send cards. By the end the kid thinks he has Solomon's treasure, and we have a project we don't want. As she goes out the door, she says to just throw out the collage when he's done, its the doing that matters, not the outcome.

We just threw out all our cards last week. Now we have three years worth of hers to toss. Nice.


You know, mother or no, I'd be reminding this person that she sees her grandchild entirely at my discretion.

We've been scheming. How much does it cost to mail a glitter-heavy collage packed in confetti?


Worth it at any cost.

Hunny156

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Re: Do any of your parents hoard and try to give you crap and other dumb stuff?
« Reply #108 on: February 03, 2016, 12:29:26 PM »
We have this problem with my in-laws. Some of it just plain junk that we offload to Goodwill almost immediately upon coming home (jokey aprons, kitchen gadgets and cookbooks), but some is pricey stuff like a collection of silverware that my MIL insists on gifting us pieces of at Christmas. This is despite us having told her that we did not want silver when we got married as it wouldn't get used and it was a big hassle with the upkeep. Not sure what to do with it so it lives in our closet.

We have two sets of china and one set of silver. We'll never use it. Ever. I'm in my 40s and have never, ever eaten off of China and maybe once with silver. We're just not formal people. Never aspired to be. I know my grandparents' generations were all about achieving a China set and silver.

We'll wait a few more years and maybe re-home it. No desire to have a garage sale. Don't want strangers on my property and certainly don't want them gazing at the other contents of our garage. Good way to invite a robbery around here.

I need to re-read this thread and then rush around the house piling things by the back door that are going away immediately.

We too have the 4500 unopened baseball cards someone gave us. Might be worth something. And it might not. Not sure I have the motivation to search through them to see. All 1990s cards.

This one is for all the people out there with a boxes of baseball cards, or other large hoards of similar items with some "potential" street value.  Due to some weird family drama issues, hubby and his brother were not raised as siblings, but rather lied to and raised as cousins.  Who happen to be spitting images of one another.  They figured out their true relationship when they were in their teens, but this has created a dynamic of wishing they had grown up together, a totally normal reaction.  Hubby is the younger one, so he had a phase where he was modeling after his brother.  Elder brother had a gas station toy collection, and hubby adopted the same, so they could both bond over it.  Hubby had to play catch up, and on top of that, decided that these items would only go up in value, so he bought many items in duplicate or triplicate.  Pre-mustachian times.

Older brother has long moved on from his collection, and at our last move, we found ourselves with a massive collection that wasn't worth anywhere near what we paid for it, and we had no desire to lug this stuff to another house.  We were also short on time with the move quickly approaching, and selling these items piecemeal would be quite the undertaking. 

A neighbor approached me about his side hustle - selling other people's crap on Ebay.  Since this collection was both large and in pristine condition, he volunteered to sell it all, for 1/3rd of the sale price, and his cut would include all fees.  He normally takes a 40% cut.  I had done the math, and between Ebay & PayPal fees alone, it would cost me at least 25%, not including the hassle of finding shipping boxes, packaging everything well, etc.  It took him about a year to sell off every last thing, but it was totally worth it to not have to deal with that mess, and getting monthly checks to dump straight into savings was a great feeling too.

I highly recommend y'all find your local eBay re-seller and negotiate a deal with them to offload these collections on your behalf.  You could make a little more by going the DIY route, but if its just sitting in storage collecting dust, this is by far a better option.

jeromedawg

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Crap, so my mom is Facetiming with my wife and kids and she just said "So I scored a 90% Easter deal at CVS - we have lots of presents to give the baby" --- really not looking forward to all the crap and candy they'll be bringing in... well, the only exception is if she brings Cadbury Mini Eggs. But no, we don't need Easter baskets, bunny ears headbands, stuffed bunnies, etc and all the other crap the store couldn't sell that you were suckered into buying because you saw "90% off". She even said that the manager was saying to her "I understand the candy but why all this other junk?" to which she 'wittingly' responded "You mean the the junk that you need to clear off your shelves?" ...good one, mom. She's obviously addicted to shopping and getting good deals, as if it were a favorite past-time. I mean, I get the adrenaline rush of getting a good deal but come on, 90% off on JUNK? It's the same thing as binge shopping at the 99-cent store.

Anyway, we're probably going to just throw most of her junk into the Goodwill bin and drop it off after they leave.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 01:06:45 PM by jeromedawg »

Zamboni

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The last time we talked she admonished me because she sent another box of randomness (used books, all very out of date/worn, some in foreign languages we don't know) and she said the kids had not sent her "proper thank you cards" in the mail. Um, I thought I called you and said thank you right when we got it? Then she scolded me that I had said thank you but the kids needed to mail her thank you cards because some of it was for them. Uh, okay, veering into crazy old lady territory. News flash: they probably didn't even see what was in that box because I was pretty certain none of it would interest them, and they don't use snail mail for . . . anything.

Oh geez - the requisite thank you card. My mother is the same way. I could give her a thank you, a kiss on the cheek and a phone call and I'd still be getting hints that I need to send that ridiculous thank you card. I've come to believe it's more about her making me do something (control) than the thanks.

Years ago when I went to visit my grandmother she served me birthday cake. As she walked out of the room I asked whose birthday it was - she replied that it was a piece of my birthday cake from when I was three years old! (23+ year old cake!)

I nearly choked and threw it out the door while she was out of the room. of course she offered me a second piece which I politely declined. Apparently frozen in the deep freeze all those years. Wonder how many power outages it weathered? ;)

Miss Havisham comes to mind every time I think of that cake.

"I've come to believe it's more about her making me do something (control) than the thanks."

Actually, I never really thought about it that way, but I think you have hit the nail right on the head. I have refused to play the card game. I send neither Christmas cards nor thank you cards. I do say thank you on the phone. I do send her a Mother's Day card with photos and also send flowers. Children do not care either way as they honestly barely know her and think she is mostly mean . . . which is mostly true. The last time she came to visit us was 10 years ago. We fly to see her pretty much every year, but there are other people around for distractions. I have refused to stay in her home for the past several years due to the way she behaves so that we can just get up and leave, when necessary (we get a hotel, which she hates . . . control issues again.)

Thankfully she has moved since I wrote that original post, so the UPS ground boxes of random uselessness have dried up to nothing. About 2 months before the moving date, she found two neighbors who were happy to haul large quantities of stuff out of her house (definitely to sell it, but I don't care why), which meant she didn't have to mail it to me. I should buy those guys some beers!

Crap, so my mom is Facetiming with my wife and kids and she just said "So I scored a 90% Easter deal at CVS - we have lots of presents to give the baby" --- really not looking forward to all the crap and candy they'll be bringing in... well, the only exception is if she brings Cadbury Mini Eggs. But no, we don't need Easter baskets, bunny ears headbands, stuffed bunnies, etc and all the other crap the store couldn't sell that you were suckered into buying because you saw "90% off". She even said that the manager was saying to her "I understand the candy but why all this other junk?" to which she 'wittingly' responded "You mean the the junk that you need to clear off your shelves?" ...good one, mom. She's obviously addicted to shopping and getting good deals, as if it were a favorite past-time. I mean, I get the adrenaline rush of getting a good deal but come on, 90% off on JUNK? It's the same thing as binge shopping at the 99-cent store.

Anyway, we're probably going to just throw most of her junk into the Goodwill bin and drop it off after they leave.

Sounds like a good call. There will two types of people happy to see it appear at Goodwill:
1) indigent parents who really would like to have a basket to give, and
2) hoarders/loonies like our parents.
Just keep the image of type 1 in your mind . . .

Abo345

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My mom is a hoarder, which has only gotten worse over the years as she has had more time to accumulate more stuff. she never throws anything away, ever. One time I found old sandals in her house that were mine from over 15 years ago. They were cheap to begin with, got good use out of them, and I have no intention to wear them again because they are ugly and out of style. I threw them away and she took them out because "they can still get use out of them". They are still sitting around in a closet somewhere. She won't wear them because she has a million newer shoes from all the kohls cash, jcpenney, and old navy coupons that were too good of deals to turn down. I have tried to throw away stretch pants with the eleastic all worn out and cracking, but she says I am being "wasteful" and digs them out. I've tried to throw away used spiral notebooks of mine from high school, and she won't let me because there are still unused pages in them. I can't remember the last time I have needed to use a spiral notebook for anything since being a student.

I believe the hoarding comes from my moms parents who grew up during the depression era and instilled the value of never wasting anything. The problem is modern day "china-ism" has created an infinite supply of consumer goods and saving them "just in case" will turn a couponer into a hoarder.

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I used to work with insects in a bio research lab, which translated to MIL as an obsessive love of butterflies somehow. Now I get regular influxes of butterfly themed crap at every occasion- butterfly mugs, t shirts, magnets, pencil cases, hair clips and statues and glittering puffy sticker books (most of which seems aimed at the tween 8-12 y old girl market). I guess it's the thought that counts? Both are massive hoarders, and we get carloads of junk every time we visit.
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paddedhat

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My sister-in-law lost her shit at TG dinner and started venting to her in-laws (which are also my in-laws) about all the "junk" they're using to fill up her home. My in-laws--graciously--responded with very compact gift cards, experiential gifts, etc., for Christmas.

When sister-in-law returned from celebrating Christmas with her own parents, however, there were Two of those little electric cars that toddlers drive all over. I guess one person's junk is another person's treasure.

As an early elementary schooler, our  daughter thought that the fact that we refused to purchase an electric Barbie Jeep for her was on the level of a humanitarian crisis. Like there was somebody out there, that she could call, who would come to her aid and jail her parents for such abuse.

We laughed about it for years. Two decades later,  If she is in the car and I spot one in a yard, I'll slow down and say, "Look Kelly, there is a family that REALLY loves their daughter". 

jeromedawg

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My mom is a hoarder, which has only gotten worse over the years as she has had more time to accumulate more stuff. she never throws anything away, ever. One time I found old sandals in her house that were mine from over 15 years ago. They were cheap to begin with, got good use out of them, and I have no intention to wear them again because they are ugly and out of style. I threw them away and she took them out because "they can still get use out of them". They are still sitting around in a closet somewhere. She won't wear them because she has a million newer shoes from all the kohls cash, jcpenney, and old navy coupons that were too good of deals to turn down. I have tried to throw away stretch pants with the eleastic all worn out and cracking, but she says I am being "wasteful" and digs them out. I've tried to throw away used spiral notebooks of mine from high school, and she won't let me because there are still unused pages in them. I can't remember the last time I have needed to use a spiral notebook for anything since being a student.

I believe the hoarding comes from my moms parents who grew up during the depression era and instilled the value of never wasting anything. The problem is modern day "china-ism" has created an infinite supply of consumer goods and saving them "just in case" will turn a couponer into a hoarder.

LOL this is my mom - in their latest email to my brothers and I they actually mentioned that they plan on stopping by the Columbia outlet at Tejon Ranch on the way down to visit us next week. This is to prepare for their upcoming trip to Europe. Thing is, they've already been traveling to multiple destinations over the past 5-10 years and they seem to stop by the Columbia outlet nearly every time they visit. Why they need to buy *more* "travel clothing" every time they visit is beyond me. I'm afraid to open their closet and see how much clothing they've accumulated and hoarded. Interestingly my mom will buy us cheap stuff for not much and tell us "oh just use it once or twice then toss it" but these are the same people who can't even throw away take out boxes because they can use them to store more food later, so we end up with a stack of plastic and foil take out boxes by the end of their visit. Don't get me started on all the Kohls, JCPenney, Macys, Old Navy, Marshalls, etc crap my mom has gotten into. It's true she's a "frugal" shopper in terms of getting a crazy hot bargain (not all the time as much as she thinks she is though), but I bet you she's spent more on shopping than anything else in her lifetime merely based on the amount of crap she accumulates from all her shopping trips combined.

Dave1442397

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My sister-in-law lost her shit at TG dinner and started venting to her in-laws (which are also my in-laws) about all the "junk" they're using to fill up her home. My in-laws--graciously--responded with very compact gift cards, experiential gifts, etc., for Christmas.

When sister-in-law returned from celebrating Christmas with her own parents, however, there were Two of those little electric cars that toddlers drive all over. I guess one person's junk is another person's treasure.

As an early elementary schooler, our  daughter thought that the fact that we refused to purchase an electric Barbie Jeep for her was on the level of a humanitarian crisis. Like there was somebody out there, that she could call, who would come to her aid and jail her parents for such abuse.

We laughed about it for years. Two decades later,  If she is in the car and I spot one in a yard, I'll slow down and say, "Look Kelly, there is a family that REALLY loves their daughter".

That's funny :)  My daughter wanted a Barbie Jeep too, so I went on Craigslist and found a used one for $20. She used it for a couple of years, and then it got sold to a neighbor, for $20.

Just Joe

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My sister-in-law lost her shit at TG dinner and started venting to her in-laws (which are also my in-laws) about all the "junk" they're using to fill up her home. My in-laws--graciously--responded with very compact gift cards, experiential gifts, etc., for Christmas.

When sister-in-law returned from celebrating Christmas with her own parents, however, there were Two of those little electric cars that toddlers drive all over. I guess one person's junk is another person's treasure.

As an early elementary schooler, our  daughter thought that the fact that we refused to purchase an electric Barbie Jeep for her was on the level of a humanitarian crisis. Like there was somebody out there, that she could call, who would come to her aid and jail her parents for such abuse.

We laughed about it for years. Two decades later,  If she is in the car and I spot one in a yard, I'll slow down and say, "Look Kelly, there is a family that REALLY loves their daughter".

We got one free second hand. Batteries can be had 50% off retail by buying a UPS battery (only diff sticker to hide its origin for retail sale) and spare parts (gearboxes) are easy to find cheap too. Ours lasted through three kids. Left it at the dump with more miles to go yet. Hopefully someone else got some more miles out of it.

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I don't know what's worse, being given crap or being asked to sell stuff because the folks don't do internet. My folks did stage 1 of downsizing a few years ago and asked me to sell furniture, small appliances, a van, clothes, etc., etc. First of course they'd try to pass it off on us, and we'd say, "No thanks, but we can take it to Goodwill for you". Then they'd wave a hand and say, "Oh, no, why don't you just sell it." Just sell it. They have no idea how much effort that takes.  I spent countless hours researching prices, photographing items, posting ads, and waiting around for Craigslist buyers to show up. And the folks got all the money!

Dad's gone now, and mom's down to two storage units, plus a two-bedroom apartment full of stuff. There are a few things in storage that I might want, but the rest? No, thanks. It's been about 5 years now, and at nearly $250/month, she's wasted some $15,000 on storing a bunch of stuff that'll probably go to Goodwill when she's gone!

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My parents have tried to give me stuff that has no value to me, and they don't understand why I am not more excited.  When I got married they wanted to buy me fine china, which I have sincerely no use for.  It would just sit gathering dust.  I finally got them to get me a kitchen aid mixer instead- way better.  They also tried to give me a fur coat.  They got offended when I told them I would sell it. 

My mother in law is a bit guilty of this too.  Christmas is really bad - she always gets us stuff that I don't use, but she is fine if we tell her we don't want it .  My daughter confounds her because she just asks for the money that she would have spent to be donated instead. 

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90 year supply of Christmas, etc. cards.   We've adopted the donate route.   Mom uses us as a conduit for donation/dumpster.   

Abo345

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My mom is a hoarder, and the only stuff she gives me is total and complete garbage. The only stuff she can bear to part with are things like stratched up Tupperware containers, picture frames she got from estate sales, faded art prints, used jeans from 20+ years ago. I used to turn the stuff down, but realizing she will never get rid of any of it, I have decided to tell her I will take it and then I either drop it off at a goodwill parking lot collector bin or just trash it.

She also has things like lifetime supplies of toothpaste, lotion, shampoo, tampons, bath towels, etc. I mean truly lifetime supplies of each. They are stuffed away disorganized in the back of some cabinet and she can't find them so she buys more of each of these when there is a sale. These however, I am not allowed to take from because she "needs" those.

Abo345

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My mom is a hoarder, which has only gotten worse over the years as she has had more time to accumulate more stuff. she never throws anything away, ever. One time I found old sandals in her house that were mine from over 15 years ago. They were cheap to begin with, got good use out of them, and I have no intention to wear them again because they are ugly and out of style. I threw them away and she took them out because "they can still get use out of them". They are still sitting around in a closet somewhere. She won't wear them because she has a million newer shoes from all the kohls cash, jcpenney, and old navy coupons that were too good of deals to turn down. I have tried to throw away stretch pants with the eleastic all worn out and cracking, but she says I am being "wasteful" and digs them out. I've tried to throw away used spiral notebooks of mine from high school, and she won't let me because there are still unused pages in them. I can't remember the last time I have needed to use a spiral notebook for anything since being a student.

I believe the hoarding comes from my moms parents who grew up during the depression era and instilled the value of never wasting anything. The problem is modern day "china-ism" has created an infinite supply of consumer goods and saving them "just in case" will turn a couponer into a hoarder.

LOL this is my mom - in their latest email to my brothers and I they actually mentioned that they plan on stopping by the Columbia outlet at Tejon Ranch on the way down to visit us next week. This is to prepare for their upcoming trip to Europe. Thing is, they've already been traveling to multiple destinations over the past 5-10 years and they seem to stop by the Columbia outlet nearly every time they visit. Why they need to buy *more* "travel clothing" every time they visit is beyond me. I'm afraid to open their closet and see how much clothing they've accumulated and hoarded. Interestingly my mom will buy us cheap stuff for not much and tell us "oh just use it once or twice then toss it" but these are the same people who can't even throw away take out boxes because they can use them to store more food later, so we end up with a stack of plastic and foil take out boxes by the end of their visit. Don't get me started on all the Kohls, JCPenney, Macys, Old Navy, Marshalls, etc crap my mom has gotten into. It's true she's a "frugal" shopper in terms of getting a crazy hot bargain (not all the time as much as she thinks she is though), but I bet you she's spent more on shopping than anything else in her lifetime merely based on the amount of crap she accumulates from all her shopping trips combined.

YES!!  I have tried explaining this many times, and it does not get through. This is a point that cannot be comprehended by my mother. It usually end with her saying she has to shop with discounts because she can't afford to do non-coupon shopping. *Facepalm*

Ditto on the mother saving used food containers. They must be used again! But she isn't stuck on some prairie foraging for resources, she has a kitchen full of Tupperware, gladware, tins from the 99 cent store, etc. already that she doesn't even use.

It sounds like we have the same mother. I can tell u what their closets look like: the stuff is not contained to a single closet, but to any and all closets, cabinets, and shelves in the house and much of it still has tags on it. Lots of things were meant to be used for a particular purpose or event and never got around to it...

jeromedawg

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My mom is a hoarder, and the only stuff she gives me is total and complete garbage. The only stuff she can bear to part with are things like stratched up Tupperware containers, picture frames she got from estate sales, faded art prints, used jeans from 20+ years ago. I used to turn the stuff down, but realizing she will never get rid of any of it, I have decided to tell her I will take it and then I either drop it off at a goodwill parking lot collector bin or just trash it.

She also has things like lifetime supplies of toothpaste, lotion, shampoo, tampons, bath towels, etc. I mean truly lifetime supplies of each. They are stuffed away disorganized in the back of some cabinet and she can't find them so she buys more of each of these when there is a sale. These however, I am not allowed to take from because she "needs" those.

This is scary - we really do have the same mother. Mine has the same stuff stored in the closet! Multiples of razors, toothpastes, lotions, etc that she either got from coupon stacking/smashing at CVS/RiteAid for "free" or all the shampoo and soap that she took from all her  hotel stays combined. She has also saved old medicine from the 1980's that's probably lost 100% of its efficacy yet she'll say things like "oh no it's fine don't throw it out!" She does encourage us to take her toothpaste, mouthwash, etc which is actually not too bad because then we don't have to buy any LOL. But sometimes it's just too much, like when she brings a large gallon ziploc bag full of hotel shampoos/soaps to us.  She has reorganized a lot of her stuff but who knows what else is laying around. LOL on the picture frames - my mom has been known to buy a bunch from the Ikea bargain corner. In fact, we had a pile of frames sitting in our closet that I cleared out to give back to her because they were just sitting there and we weren't going to use them because they didn't match (i guess we could have painted them black?). But they were sitting there for years before we got around to giving them back. I'm sure they're sitting in their garage somewhere.


YES!!  I have tried explaining this many times, and it does not get through. This is a point that cannot be comprehended by my mother. It usually end with her saying she has to shop with discounts because she can't afford to do non-coupon shopping. *Facepalm*

Ditto on the mother saving used food containers. They must be used again! But she isn't stuck on some prairie foraging for resources, she has a kitchen full of Tupperware, gladware, tins from the 99 cent store, etc. already that she doesn't even use.

It sounds like we have the same mother. I can tell u what their closets look like: the stuff is not contained to a single closet, but to any and all closets, cabinets, and shelves in the house and much of it still has tags on it. Lots of things were meant to be used for a particular purpose or event and never got around to it...

Nope, it's nearly impossible to change their mindset - they can't NOT bargain shop and they can't even cut down the amount of bargain shopping they do. These "deals" are just too good to miss out on. Yea it's crazy the amount of plastic-ware she has in the kitchen. And you're completely right about their stuff not being contained to a single closet. All of our closets are storing any given amounts of their crap.....excess wrapping paper, computer parts, old tape recorders, a pile of lanyards from IT trade shows my dad has attended (for heavens knows what... he says it's for him to collect gifts to give to my kids and my nephews, as if they need stupid laser pointers, fidgets, mints, and other dumb trinkets from vendors), more junk "gifts" my mom stores so she can break it out to pick our Christmas gifts each year, etc. And since not all of it can fit in the various closets they stuff junk into around the house, they have an attic with stuff in it and of course the garage, where they can only fit one car currently. Good thing they have a spacious driveway.

Oh yeah, last time they came down they gave us a set of BBQ tools and an apron for our 'friends' and then another set for us (we already have 1 set that they gave to us.... I guess they forgot or thought it was too cheap to pass up on why not). We BBQ like once a month max.

This is a good reminder for us to go through our own closets and look for other crap they've given to us that we should get rid of. If not, our place basically turns into a storage unit for them. We would rather her just give us the money she uses to buy all these "gifts" for us, especially when she says things like "you need to worry about putting your kids through college!" - I'm going to tell her, the next time you go bargain shopping at Kohls, CVS, Rite Aid, Macys, Old Navy, etc and you're about to buy something for any of us, please figure out how much it will cost, don't buy it, and give us that money when you see us next. It's a win-win: you won't "lose" it to the trash/Goodwill and our kids will have that much more to go to college like you want them to.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 07:39:34 PM by jeromedawg »

rdaneel0

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My parents don't hoard but my mother-in-law does impulse buy a lot and send us things. She gets swept up in sales and has sent us more tea towels and soaps and tacky framed pictures than I can count. It makes me sad because her finances aren't in the best shape and she lives on disability, but I can also tell she feels so good about doing it. We pretty much give away or throw away everything she sends us :\
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jeromedawg

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My parents don't hoard but my mother-in-law does impulse buy a lot and send us things. She gets swept up in sales and has sent us more tea towels and soaps and tacky framed pictures than I can count. It makes me sad because her finances aren't in the best shape and she lives on disability, but I can also tell she feels so good about doing it. We pretty much give away or throw away everything she sends us :\

It's like a therapeutic form of Goodwill where they can fulfill their need to be generous without actually feeling like they're losing something. Perhaps a way to live vicariously through someone by buying them something they really think they'll use. Again, I say keep badgering them to give you the money they could/would have spent on that crap and tell them it's so they can vicariously live through your kids going to college like they probably would want :P

onehair

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My dad does this it drives me nuts! I admit I tend to hoard books( I am trying to institute a way to get rid of a book for every one I bring in the house) especially cookbooks which I have been facepunched for and certain types of food nonperishable.  But I tend to throw most of what he gives me away.



Just Joe

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Managing these closets of stuff plus the constant shopping expeditions sounds so tiring - physically and emotionally. Just get rid of it and find a dang hobby or get out and go for a walk. Or bake someone some cookies!

So MANY other ways to find happiness in this big old world.

Tris Prior

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I don't know what's worse, being given crap or being asked to sell stuff because the folks don't do internet. My folks did stage 1 of downsizing a few years ago and asked me to sell furniture, small appliances, a van, clothes, etc., etc. First of course they'd try to pass it off on us, and we'd say, "No thanks, but we can take it to Goodwill for you". Then they'd wave a hand and say, "Oh, no, why don't you just sell it." Just sell it. They have no idea how much effort that takes.  I spent countless hours researching prices, photographing items, posting ads, and waiting around for Craigslist buyers to show up. And the folks got all the money!


OH GOD. My mother does this all the time. She doesn't have Internet - and likes to remind me often, "You know I CAN'T do this myself because I can't afford a computer or a smartphone!" She keeps giving me all of this useless crap to sell for her, and demands that I ask outrageous prices for it that she's never going to get.

I just moved and had several rubbermaid bins full of her crap that I've been listing over and over and over again on Craigslist, ebay, etc. for literally7 or 8 years with no interest at all. I donated all of it because I couldn't stand to move it one more time. Didn't tell her. I feel bad about that but it wasn't worth her flying into a rage upon hearing that I donated "stuff that was worth money! It's a collectible!" Spoiler alert: it is NOT worth money, no one wants her old musty broken shit! But she just cannot or will not hear that.

o2bfree

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Yeah, dang it! My dad had loads of camera gear, film camera gear, top of the line stuff that he wanted me to sell. A dozen or so cameras, including a very expensive Mamiya, a couple dozen lenses of all types, several video cameras, tripods, bags, and other accessories that he wanted top dollar for. I kept telling him almost everyone does digital these days, but he could see only how much he spent on it all. I did manage to sell the Mamiya set to a guy in Florida for like $400, plus shipping. And a guy at work bought a couple of the lenses because they worked with his digital gear. But the rest I ended up giving away.

I felt bad for my father, especially since he'd started showing sign of dementia and would sometimes get overly upset about things, his life of things, going out the door for a fraction of what he paid. That's another reason to get rid of stuff as early as possible. Make the decisions while you're still healthy mentally and can shift your focus away from such attachments.

paddedhat

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Ah, "collectibles".  My sweet Italian grammy started collecting Hummel figurines in the 1970s,. My dad would get them at the factory and ship them to her, in the states. When she passed, she must of had a hundred of them. Her sons did the right thing by asking all family members if they wanted one, or more? I declined, but took a look on Ebay, to see if there was a market. I watched one of her favorites being listed for a $0.99 opening bid. The auction timed out with zero interest.

When it comes to out of control parents, I will never forget the Christmas messes my mom would create when our two kids were toddler and early school aged. I warned her to knock off the over the top gift buying on several occasions. One late Christmas afternoon I walked her out to the minivan, and we both did a tour of the interior. By the time I piled the new toys and gifts in, there was barely room for two kids in the back. I said this is obscene, and you're out of control. She snapped out of it, a bit, and future years were a lot more rational. 

MgoSam

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Ah, "collectibles".  My sweet Italian grammy started collecting Hummel figurines in the 1970s

I read this as being "Rommel figurines," and had to do a double take.

jeromedawg

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I don't know what's worse, being given crap or being asked to sell stuff because the folks don't do internet. My folks did stage 1 of downsizing a few years ago and asked me to sell furniture, small appliances, a van, clothes, etc., etc. First of course they'd try to pass it off on us, and we'd say, "No thanks, but we can take it to Goodwill for you". Then they'd wave a hand and say, "Oh, no, why don't you just sell it." Just sell it. They have no idea how much effort that takes.  I spent countless hours researching prices, photographing items, posting ads, and waiting around for Craigslist buyers to show up. And the folks got all the money!

Dad's gone now, and mom's down to two storage units, plus a two-bedroom apartment full of stuff. There are a few things in storage that I might want, but the rest? No, thanks. It's been about 5 years now, and at nearly $250/month, she's wasted some $15,000 on storing a bunch of stuff that'll probably go to Goodwill when she's gone!

Yeah, I've gotten this too -

Mom: "oh do you think this will sell on Ebay? How much can you get for it? You know it's a collector's item right?"
Me: "um, so you'll get about $15-20 for it, and that doesn't factor in the cost of shipping and ebay fees"
Mom: "are you sure? it's from 1979"
Me: "yea, and I don't want to sell it for you"
Mom: "OK, we'll put it back in the attic"
**this discussion comes up once or twice a year and she or my dad will rotate the request through myself and my brothers**

I don't even know if that's actually what's even said, but that's pretty much what happens (at least, the putting it back up in the attic part)

Tris Prior

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Ha, at least yours puts it back in the attic. I get pleading, tears, and "don't you understand, I CAN'T do it, I don't have Internet?!? How am I ever going to get this house cleaned out if you don't help me sell this stuff?"

Sigh. If only Internet access is all one needed to get strangers to pay exorbitant amounts of money for essentially crap. {eyeroll}

LiveLean

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Ah, "collectibles".  My sweet Italian grammy started collecting Hummel figurines in the 1970s,. My dad would get them at the factory and ship them to her, in the states. When she passed, she must of had a hundred of them. Her sons did the right thing by asking all family members if they wanted one, or more? I declined, but took a look on Ebay, to see if there was a market. I watched one of her favorites being listed for a $0.99 opening bid. The auction timed out with zero interest.

As much as our society has become consumerism-on-steroids, it is interesting that nobody collects stuff like this anymore. I'm 47 and have sold 95 percent of my sports memorabilia collection over the last few years. My 78-year-old dad is holding onto his Lionel trains convinced that I'm going to want to put them up in my home at some point. Oddly, though, he had no qualms about unloading his Hummel figurines in an estate sale 20 years ago. He got $1,200 for about two dozen of them, including the curio cabinet they were in. In hindsight, he did very well.
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Ah, "collectibles".  My sweet Italian grammy started collecting Hummel figurines in the 1970s

I read this as being "Rommel figurines," and had to do a double take.

Those might have held their value.
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RetiredAt63

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My in-laws downsized from a house to an apartment to a senior's residence.  Many years later, when they were both gone, we (children and spouses) went to clear out the storage unit they had rented all those years.  It was garbage.  Old cleaning supplies, junk furniture, unbelievable. What a waste.

I suppose we were lucky it wasn't worse.  My FIL tried to rescue things when my SIL helped her parents have a big yard sale when they were moving out of the house.  There was no way they had room for this stuff in the apartment, but he had a terrible time letting things go.  MIL wasn't nearly so bad. 
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prudent_one

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My parents try to give us little things when we visit, not to declutter their home but because we were dirt poor growing up and this is their way to try to make up for it. As time went on, I had to stop it though. I told them we don't have room for any more stuff, and in fact we're trying to get rid of stuff we already have. We've lived in the same house for 20+ years and things do tend to accumulate.

Fortunately they (mostly) understood and at least stopped insisting we take something - now they say "Could you use _____?" and if I say no, that's usually the end of it. They do understand we're not being ungrateful but we simply don't want any more stuff.  If they keep pushing, I'll offer to take it home but I tell them I'll find someone else who can use it. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they choose to keep it.  In a way I think my father is secretly pleased that we're that adamant about not accumulating all the stuff we can get our hands on, and we're not materialistic.

jeromedawg

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My parents try to give us little things when we visit, not to declutter their home but because we were dirt poor growing up and this is their way to try to make up for it. As time went on, I had to stop it though. I told them we don't have room for any more stuff, and in fact we're trying to get rid of stuff we already have. We've lived in the same house for 20+ years and things do tend to accumulate.

Fortunately they (mostly) understood and at least stopped insisting we take something - now they say "Could you use _____?" and if I say no, that's usually the end of it. They do understand we're not being ungrateful but we simply don't want any more stuff.  If they keep pushing, I'll offer to take it home but I tell them I'll find someone else who can use it. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they choose to keep it.  In a way I think my father is secretly pleased that we're that adamant about not accumulating all the stuff we can get our hands on, and we're not materialistic.

Yea, this has become more along the lines of how my parents have been doing it after we told them similarly that we don't have space to house crap they give us. It's definitely not as bad as before, but sometimes my mom will just keep pulling stuff out of her bags to give or leave us.

o2bfree

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My dad started doing stealth drops on us, leaving things he knew we'd balk at on our back porch while we were at work. We came home one day to find a large box filled with old cans of late 60s-vintage herbicides and pesticides. Anyone remember DDT? My boyfriend had to haul the box off to the toxic waste disposal site.

Sibley

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My dad started doing stealth drops on us, leaving things he knew we'd balk at on our back porch while we were at work. We came home one day to find a large box filled with old cans of late 60s-vintage herbicides and pesticides. Anyone remember DDT? My boyfriend had to haul the box off to the toxic waste disposal site.

I went through my parents garage and gathered a massive pile of stuff for their hazardous waste collection day. Eventually, there will be a much bigger pile from the basement.

MgoSam

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I feel lucky my parents idea of giving me "crap" is when my dad goes grocery shopping and comes back with like 10-15 pounds of strawberry. My parents will eat one or 2 and then he'll start giving them away because otherwise they might go bad. And he wonders why my mom never asks him to buy groceries......

jeromedawg

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I feel lucky my parents idea of giving me "crap" is when my dad goes grocery shopping and comes back with like 10-15 pounds of strawberry. My parents will eat one or 2 and then he'll start giving them away because otherwise they might go bad. And he wonders why my mom never asks him to buy groceries......

This sounds like my FIL - my wife asks him *not* to bring stuff or if she does, she just wants like 2-3 oranges, apples, pears or green onions, etc. He'll end up buying a box of orange, apples, pears and bringing like 8-10 bunches of green onions. They run a restaurant so I think he can't detach buying in bulk vs buying for an individual. It's crazy too cause my MIL has poor eyesight, so the oranges might be sitting around at their place for a while and she doesn't realize half the oranges are bad, or they might have picked a box with half of the fruit rotting and she can't tell. They also eat the fruit when it tastes fermented and will say things like "Oh wow this is really good!" SMH... it's pretty gross. We have tossed so much excessive food they've brought because we simply can't eat all of what they give us OR it goes bad fast (if it isn't already bad). My wife constantly tells them they waste food by bringing excess to us yet they still can't get it through their heads *not* to bring as much as they do.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 03:05:24 PM by jeromedawg »

Chris22

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I don't know what's worse, being given crap or being asked to sell stuff because the folks don't do internet.

My FIL tried to loop me into selling some of his (fairly expensive) crap because I bought and sold a dozen or so odds and ends on eBay a decade ago and therefore had an account with some feedback.  My subtle suggestion that he, too, could create an account and sell some small things and generate some feedback before moving onto more expensive things was lost on him.  I also believe it'e more about "having people do things for him" than any other reason.  I let a couple things sit in my garage for a few months "never having time" to sell it before he got frustrated and moved on to someone else.
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jeromedawg

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I don't know what's worse, being given crap or being asked to sell stuff because the folks don't do internet.

My FIL tried to loop me into selling some of his (fairly expensive) crap because I bought and sold a dozen or so odds and ends on eBay a decade ago and therefore had an account with some feedback.  My subtle suggestion that he, too, could create an account and sell some small things and generate some feedback before moving onto more expensive things was lost on him.  I also believe it'e more about "having people do things for him" than any other reason.  I let a couple things sit in my garage for a few months "never having time" to sell it before he got frustrated and moved on to someone else.

My parents and in-laws have asked us to sell stuff but they'll actually say we can keep whatever we make from the sale. That's actually not too bad of a deal if any of their crap would be worth selling, but usually it's not hahaha. But yea, it seems the 'older generation' isn't willing to do this kind of stuff in terms of online sales, etc. It's a paradigm shift for them. Probably similar to why my mom freaks out at me talking about investing in real estate out of state, because her properties are local and they are ultra-conservative and never do any of that stuff online. Fact is, many people have done it and are doing it, and so can the rest of us - it just requires an open-mind and the right perspective.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 03:17:53 PM by jeromedawg »

partgypsy

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My sister does this : (. I think she is a bit of a shopaholic, it's like she can't help herself. It used to be worse when she had a higher paying job, but I still get random stuff from her. The last 2 things was a 9 piece tapa server set of oddly shaped plates, and assorted vitamins for me and the kids ?? she knows I've gone through a breakup and am actively trying to de clutter the house to make things easier on me, so I think for her it's a compulsion.


jeromedawg

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My sister does this : (. I think she is a bit of a shopaholic, it's like she can't help herself. It used to be worse when she had a higher paying job, but I still get random stuff from her. The last 2 things was a 9 piece tapa server set of oddly shaped plates, and assorted vitamins for me and the kids ?? she knows I've gone through a breakup and am actively trying to de clutter the house to make things easier on me, so I think for her it's a compulsion.

It's like a drug (well, from what I hear about what drugs do to people hahaha): you get a boost from scoring that blazing 95% off deal on the vitamins that expire in 10 days, but soon after you wonder for a split-second why you bought because they're for 60+ yr old females, and so you look for someone to give them to as 'charitable donation (even though they probably aren't going to use them either): win-win - you got a bargain and you "helped" someone out! In reality: you wasted your money and the vitamins are likely sitting in a landfill somewhere.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 03:25:15 PM by jeromedawg »

FireHiker

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This is absolutely my mother! She has very unhealthy attachment to stuff. A little background: when I was growing up my father was an alcoholic and my mother was a spend-a-holic (on whatever her latest obsession was), and our garage was always completely full of boxes of stuff. There was a lot of financial instability; I counted 22 different "homes" in my first 17 years alive, including an 8 month period where we were actually homeless (when I was 12/13) and lived in 9 different places including campgrounds and house-sitting, while those boxes and boxes of stuff were stored in various storage units.

Fast-forward many years, and I'm out on my own. Every time my mom would come to visit she would bring "boxes of your stuff". When I finally had my daughter 5 years ago at 33, after having two sons first, she gave me boxes and boxes of my old baby clothes from the late 70's, with shot elastic and stains and unwearable. I have sorted through most of the (30+) boxes of "stuff" by now; I think I'm down to the last 6 or so in the garage. 99% of this stuff are things I have no interest in saving: every single old t-shirt from when I was a kid, old and broken items, every card she received at my baby shower in 1978.

The thing that bothers me the most is that my parents have spent how much money over the years to move and store all of these items when we were homeless and moving all the time because they couldn't keep up on the rent? Why was she buying all this stuff (OMG the Tinkerbell phase of stuff that she collected, the build-a-bear collection for herself as an adult, and let's not even start in on the overpriced American Girl collection of my mother's) instead of making sure we had somewhere to live and the utilities on? I think it's pretty clear to me at this point that there is mental illness involved in my mother's case, but it has definitely driven me to a strong desire to be a minimalist. I've made this very clear and the barrage of stuff has lessened in recent years. I know she still has a huge storage unit full of stuff all boxed up...every time I think of it I am driven to throw shit out (ie, donate to VVA or recycle in most cases) in my own house so my kids don't ever have to deal with anything like this.

Pigeon

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MIL died a few months ago, and we are still dealing with crap from her house.

She had four adult sons, in their 50s and 60s all with homes of their own.  With my coaching, she made a half-assed attempt five years ago to get all the sons to take their own crap.  She had an attic and a basement full of college text books, sporting equipment, books, clothing, etc.  Dh had long ago disposed of his crap, but two of them flatly refused because they "didn't have room for it."  Some of their houses are small, but good grief, if you are 50+ years old, throw out your own damn junk if you can't take it.  I encouraged her to give them a drop dead date for taking it or tossing it, but she couldn't bring herself to do it, so back to the attic it went.

Since we live in town, and dh is the executor, we are still sorting through the crap.  We've tossed lots of it, but dh is way more timid about it than I would be.

If your parents try to give you crap and other dumb stuff that was actually yours, please take it and dispose of it if you don't want it.  I have come in contact with boxes from one brother's college apartment, containing 35 year old jars of spaghetti sauce, rotten dish towels, love letters from old girl friends, etc. that he still won't take but doesn't want just thrown out.

Photographs, oh, how I hate photographs.  My bedroom has about twenty huge cartons of photos.  Remember the day of print photography?  ILs would take 8 snapshots of the Christmas tree every year.  Two would be in focus, but all 8 went in the album.  There are albums of pictures of people we don't recognize.  Nobody wants to throw out the ancestors but nobody wants to claim them, either.  One brother helpfully suggested we contact distant branches of the family to see if they could help ID photos.  Umm, no, if you want them ID'd, do it yourself.

We could scan these thousands of photos.  Dh, in theory wants to do that, but in practice they are going nowhere fast.  He's a lovely man, but taking charge of this kind of stuff is not his thing, nor will he let me do it.  I hate photographs.

mies

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I always take what my parents or in laws want to give us. We just pitch it when we get home if we don't really want it.

We do the same thing with food people try to send us home with after a party. Just accept it graciously and throw it in the trash when you get home. I hate wasting food, but if it wasn't that great when it was hot and fresh, it's not going to be any better color reheated.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 03:16:55 PM by mies »
Less is more.

paddedhat

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MIL died a few months ago, and we are still dealing with crap from her house.



Photographs, oh, how I hate photographs.  My bedroom has about twenty huge cartons of photos.  Remember the day of print photography?  ILs would take 8 snapshots of the Christmas tree every year.  Two would be in focus, but all 8 went in the album.  There are albums of pictures of people we don't recognize.  Nobody wants to throw out the ancestors but nobody wants to claim them, either.  One brother helpfully suggested we contact distant branches of the family to see if they could help ID photos.  Umm, no, if you want them ID'd, do it yourself.

We could scan these thousands of photos.  Dh, in theory wants to do that, but in practice they are going nowhere fast.  He's a lovely man, but taking charge of this kind of stuff is not his thing, nor will he let me do it.  I hate photographs.

You are my new hero. That is all. Please take a moment to congratulate yourself.  Anybody who hates massive amounts of inherited pics. as much as I do is awesome.

 My mom died about seven years back. She was obsessed with photography, and frankly, not too talented.  As we cleaned the house out, there was at least seven 20 gallon sized totes in the attic, AND a decent sized dresser that was completely stuffed with pics. To the point that the bottoms of  the drawers were collapsing! It was too heavy to even slide on the carpet. She would own expensive equipment, and take pics. of everything repeatedly. Then she would go to the drug store and have DOUBLES made of everything.  I literally spend a full week at a big table while sorting. I divided them into about ten groups, based on subject. If a special friend or relative was a subject, I boxed up several hundred or more, and mailed them to the lucky aunt, uncle, old best friend.  I explained that I had zero attachment to the pics. and would not be offended if they tossed them all. During that process I trashed at least 2/3rds of the collection since they were doubles, poor quality, or one of a thirty sun rise or set shots, done within a few moments of each other.

We still have a few thousand of them. My daughter is supposed to be scanning them, but I believe that she offered to do it before she understood the magnitude of the project. As it's not showing much success. The fact that 99% of them are no longer my problem is very relieving.