Author Topic: Cycling hate!  (Read 27993 times)

Alan2

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2013, 01:54:34 PM »
Question - if the queue of cars is too big to make it through the light, do you guys sit in line with them through several light cycles?  Or head up to toward the front to make it through on the first cycle?

I either wait, or get off my bike and walk past the line of cars on the sidewalk...

I filter up the line of traffic into the Advanced Stop Line box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_stop_line) at the junction that is there specifically to allow bikes to line up in front of the lead car.  This gives the bikes a chance to get through the junction ahead of the cars, which is safer all round.  ASLs are so common in the UK at big junctions it can be a surprise when you filter passed the stationary traffic and one isn't there.  In these cases I just pull forward of the Stop Line in front of the car, and wait for the lights to change, as does nearly every other cyclist I've seen.  If a car driver were to object I think they'd just get a vaguely bemused stare from everyone else.  As a car driver I prefer the bikes in front where I can see them, rather than lurking in my blindspot.

chardog

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2013, 10:33:28 PM »
Question - if the queue of cars is too big to make it through the light, do you guys sit in line with them through several light cycles?  Or head up to toward the front to make it through on the first cycle?

I either wait, or get off my bike and walk past the line of cars on the sidewalk...

I filter up the line of traffic into the Advanced Stop Line box (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_stop_line) at the junction that is there specifically to allow bikes to line up in front of the lead car.  This gives the bikes a chance to get through the junction ahead of the cars, which is safer all round.  ASLs are so common in the UK at big junctions it can be a surprise when you filter passed the stationary traffic and one isn't there.  In these cases I just pull forward of the Stop Line in front of the car, and wait for the lights to change, as does nearly every other cyclist I've seen.  If a car driver were to object I think they'd just get a vaguely bemused stare from everyone else.  As a car driver I prefer the bikes in front where I can see them, rather than lurking in my blindspot.

Sure, why should bikes have to line up behind a long line of cars simply because cars take up so much space.

Cars hog up way too much space and resources in general.

"The High Cost of Free Parking" has a good take on this subject.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X

Matte

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2013, 06:06:16 AM »
That's not entirely true about cyclist should not be on sidewalks.  Maple ridge bc, passed a law a year ago that cyclist can legally ride on the sidewalks.  I like it a lot when I'm riding my mountainbike into town. I can't say I'd like it as much of I was on a road bike or went fast.

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2013, 11:12:17 AM »

Sure, why should bikes have to line up behind a long line of cars simply because cars take up so much space.

Cars hog up way too much space and resources in general.

"The High Cost of Free Parking" has a good take on this subject.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X

You can't be serious.  In most states this is illegal, and "cars hog up way too much space" is not a valid defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

Cinder

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2013, 11:55:31 AM »
That's not entirely true about cyclist should not be on sidewalks.  Maple ridge bc, passed a law a year ago that cyclist can legally ride on the sidewalks.  I like it a lot when I'm riding my mountainbike into town. I can't say I'd like it as much of I was on a road bike or went fast.

Another dangerous thing is that drivers aren't looking at sidewalks for oncoming traffic.. Lots of potential for accidents where a sidewalk crosses a road or an alley and a car is pulling out far enough to be able to see traffic on the road.  I had a friend in highschool who destroyed the  passenger side door of a van with his bike while riding down a hill on the sidewalks. 

I don't remember where I saw it, but IIRC driving going the 'wrong way', aka against traffic on a sidewalk is one of the most dangerous ways to ride, typically by people who are looking left to pull out for a right turn and don't see you coming down the sidewalk ahead of them. 

Alan2

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2013, 12:00:12 PM »
You can't be serious.  In most states this is illegal, and "cars hog up way too much space" is not a valid defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

Lane splitting, or filtering as we call it in the UK, is expected from anything two wheeled and able to (safely) get through the gaps.  Failure to do so can get you marked down on the motorcycle licence test (it's called failure to make progress).

I find these little differences between countries that are otherwise similar quite weird...

mpbaker22

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2013, 12:15:23 PM »
Filtering is typically not necessary on my commute.  However, I can think of one time I filtered through traffic without even realizing it was illegal, but I feel like given the circumstances, it was totally warranted.

I was on a planned 50 mile ride and had planned on riding between the arch and river in St. Louis.  What I found out was the road was closed for Fair St. Louis.  The police re-routed me through downtown St. Louis at 4 PM on a Saturday afternoon.  The 1:05 Cardinals game just ended.  Traffic was literally moving about 3 cars each light cycle, and I filtered through downtown at 10 mph, blowing by the cars.

fallstoclimb

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #57 on: September 13, 2013, 06:54:16 AM »
This.


I almost always get in line with the cars. My reasons:
1) The right hook (a car in the right lane, not realizing you are to their right, and then turning right and hitting you) is one of the most deadly bike/car interactions.
2) When I'm in line with traffic at a stop light, I think it makes motorists see very visibly that I am following the same rules they are, and I think it improves goodwill/respect toward cyclists.



Cyclists are out there with a different risk-reward calculation than most drivers.  If we make a stupid decision we can easily be crushed by a car.  I do agree to earlier comments about how cyclists shouldn't bike on sidewalks.....but there is still one short section of my daily commute when I hop up onto a sidewalk to make it under a highway underpass, where the road is fast and dangerous with poor visibility.  There's usually not pedestrians and I ring my bell/stop and get off if necessary when they are there.

Not to defend single cyclists who fly through 4-way stops without slowing, because that's a terrible decision for their own safety, but I typically roll through one 3-way stop on my commute.  This is a trial-and-error decision that helps me maintain control of the road at that intersection.  Plus, my 'rolling through' is still slower than most cars 'rolling through'.  It's a double standard. 

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #58 on: September 13, 2013, 02:12:07 PM »

Sure, why should bikes have to line up behind a long line of cars simply because cars take up so much space.

Cars hog up way too much space and resources in general.

"The High Cost of Free Parking" has a good take on this subject.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X

You can't be serious.  In most states this is illegal, and "cars hog up way too much space" is not a valid defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

You can't be serious. Although I miss being able to split lanes on my motorcycle, as I could in California, I did that in the lane of motor vehicle traffic, whereas on my bicycle I am generally expected to be outside the lane of motor vehicle traffic. If I'm not outside the lane of traffic, why aren't cars violating the same law when they overtake me?

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #59 on: September 13, 2013, 02:31:30 PM »

Sure, why should bikes have to line up behind a long line of cars simply because cars take up so much space.

Cars hog up way too much space and resources in general.

"The High Cost of Free Parking" has a good take on this subject.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X

You can't be serious.  In most states this is illegal, and "cars hog up way too much space" is not a valid defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

You can't be serious. Although I miss being able to split lanes on my motorcycle, as I could in California, I did that in the lane of motor vehicle traffic, whereas on my bicycle I am generally expected to be outside the lane of motor vehicle traffic. If I'm not outside the lane of traffic, why aren't cars violating the same law when they overtake me?

If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #60 on: September 13, 2013, 02:42:23 PM »

Sure, why should bikes have to line up behind a long line of cars simply because cars take up so much space.

Cars hog up way too much space and resources in general.

"The High Cost of Free Parking" has a good take on this subject.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X

You can't be serious.  In most states this is illegal, and "cars hog up way too much space" is not a valid defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

You can't be serious. Although I miss being able to split lanes on my motorcycle, as I could in California, I did that in the lane of motor vehicle traffic, whereas on my bicycle I am generally expected to be outside the lane of motor vehicle traffic. If I'm not outside the lane of traffic, why aren't cars violating the same law when they overtake me?

If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

Now please explain how "at a light" is relevant under your version of what's right or wrong.

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #61 on: September 13, 2013, 03:09:13 PM »

Sure, why should bikes have to line up behind a long line of cars simply because cars take up so much space.

Cars hog up way too much space and resources in general.

"The High Cost of Free Parking" has a good take on this subject.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X

You can't be serious.  In most states this is illegal, and "cars hog up way too much space" is not a valid defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

You can't be serious. Although I miss being able to split lanes on my motorcycle, as I could in California, I did that in the lane of motor vehicle traffic, whereas on my bicycle I am generally expected to be outside the lane of motor vehicle traffic. If I'm not outside the lane of traffic, why aren't cars violating the same law when they overtake me?

If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

Now please explain how "at a light" is relevant under your version of what's right or wrong.

Because we're discussing the appropriateness of bicyclists passing cars in the lane while moving towards a red light.

grantmeaname

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2013, 03:39:11 PM »
Now please explain how "at a light" is relevant under your version of what's right or wrong.
It doesn't limit whether passing is right or wrong. Beltim said that because that's what the whole thread up to this point has been primarily about.

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2013, 04:46:43 PM »

Sure, why should bikes have to line up behind a long line of cars simply because cars take up so much space.

Cars hog up way too much space and resources in general.

"The High Cost of Free Parking" has a good take on this subject.
http://www.amazon.com/High-Cost-Parking-Updated-Edition/dp/193236496X

You can't be serious.  In most states this is illegal, and "cars hog up way too much space" is not a valid defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting

You can't be serious. Although I miss being able to split lanes on my motorcycle, as I could in California, I did that in the lane of motor vehicle traffic, whereas on my bicycle I am generally expected to be outside the lane of motor vehicle traffic. If I'm not outside the lane of traffic, why aren't cars violating the same law when they overtake me?

If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

Now please explain how "at a light" is relevant under your version of what's right or wrong.

Because we're discussing the appropriateness of bicyclists passing cars in the lane while moving towards a red light.

If you think it's equally wrong for any car to pass a bike on a similarly laid-out street (primarily one without a shoulder or a bike lane) because it would also be lane splitting, regardless of proximity to a light, then that's a consistent position. But usually, as this general proposition has been expressed to me, car drivers see no issue in passing a bike in the same lane (because they can do so in a reasonably safe manner, I suppose, regardless of whether it's legal), but then may see some issue with cyclists passing cars on the same road. That's never made sense to me. If, on Monday, you drive past me on my bike a quarter of a mile before we reach a light at a particular intersection, but then on Tuesday you are stopped at the same location in a row of cars and I pass you, why would I be wrong on Tuesday if you weren't wrong on Monday? Or are you  saying that the car in that scenario should have stayed behind the bike? Good luck with that one, and it seems unnecessary (and if applicable law requires it, it seems a failure of the law).

Incidentally, while California may be unique in the U.S. in expressly permitting lane splitting, it's not necessarily clear that it's prohibited in other states, as you presume. In my state, a right-hand pass is only expressly illegal if it requires leaving the paved surface of the roadway, although drivers may try to bully cyclists into thinking otherwise.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 05:16:52 PM by Undecided »

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2013, 06:17:40 PM »
If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

Quote
If you think it's equally wrong for any car to pass a bike on a similarly laid-out street (primarily one without a shoulder or a bike lane) because it would also be lane splitting, regardless of proximity to a light, then that's a consistent position.

Yes.  I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 07:11:51 PM by beltim »

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2013, 06:37:21 PM »
If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

[quote author = Undecided]
If you think it's equally wrong for any car to pass a bike on a similarly laid-out street (primarily one without a shoulder or a bike lane) because it would also be lane splitting, regardless of proximity to a light, then that's a consistent position.

Yes.  I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject.
[/quote]

Just pointing out the absurdity of your position and its absolute discordance with how people act.

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2013, 07:12:32 PM »
If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

[quote author = Undecided]
If you think it's equally wrong for any car to pass a bike on a similarly laid-out street (primarily one without a shoulder or a bike lane) because it would also be lane splitting, regardless of proximity to a light, then that's a consistent position.

Yes.  I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject.

Just pointing out the absurdity of your position and its absolute discordance with how people act.
[/quote]

It's absurd to think people should follow the law?

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2013, 07:19:45 PM »
If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

[quote author = Undecided]
If you think it's equally wrong for any car to pass a bike on a similarly laid-out street (primarily one without a shoulder or a bike lane) because it would also be lane splitting, regardless of proximity to a light, then that's a consistent position.

Yes.  I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject.

Just pointing out the absurdity of your position and its absolute discordance with how people act.

It's absurd to think people should follow the law?
[/quote]

In cases where virtually nobody does (e.g., cars not passing bikes if there is no separate bike lane or shoulder), yes. And if the law is so thoroughly disregarded in one direction (cars passing bikes), I'd say it's equally absurd to expect it to be followed in the other direction (bikes passing cars). It's also possible that your understanding of the law is incorrect. As I said, I've heard your position expressed, but so far as I can tell, the law here just prohibits ride-side passes that require leaving the roadway.

chardog

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2013, 07:24:49 PM »
Incidentally, this week I was clipped (from behind) by a car trying to pass me in a single lane approaching a red light.

I always wonder why car drivers make such an effort to pass others on the road when approaching a very obvious stop condition.

chardog

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2013, 07:27:22 PM »
Incidentally, this week I was clipped (from behind) by a car trying to pass me in a single lane approaching a red light.

I always wonder why car drivers make such an effort to pass others on the road when approaching a very obvious stop condition.

Looking back on the incident and how I could have avoided it:  I was hugging the right side of the lane and thus encouraged the bone-head move by the car driver.

I should have "taken the lane", especially since it was a narrow urban street lane with no bike lane or shoulder approaching a red light.

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2013, 08:08:33 PM »
If you're in the same lane as cars, they are violating the law when they overtake you.  And that's the conversation we're having see "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread.  It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though).

Quote
If you think it's equally wrong for any car to pass a bike on a similarly laid-out street (primarily one without a shoulder or a bike lane) because it would also be lane splitting, regardless of proximity to a light, then that's a consistent position.

Yes.  I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject.

Just pointing out the absurdity of your position and its absolute discordance with how people act.

It's absurd to think people should follow the law?

In cases where virtually nobody does (e.g., cars not passing bikes if there is no separate bike lane or shoulder), yes. And if the law is so thoroughly disregarded in one direction (cars passing bikes), I'd say it's equally absurd to expect it to be followed in the other direction (bikes passing cars). It's also possible that your understanding of the law is incorrect. As I said, I've heard your position expressed, but so far as I can tell, the law here just prohibits ride-side passes that require leaving the roadway.

Yeah, I don't think "other people break the law" is any more valid a legal defense than "cars hog up way too much space" was. 

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2013, 09:49:43 PM »
I didn't say it makes it legal (not that I know what law you've got in mind), but expecting something that is the opposite of what you know to be the overwhelmingly more common behavior still seems absurd. The less danger or inconvenience it presents to others, the more absurd the expectation is.

CG

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2013, 04:53:06 AM »
If you are cycling along near the kerb in a fairly narrow street where parking is permitted do you always check behind you when overtaking the parked car? I was in that situation this morning and was nearly clipped by a leaner driver passing me at the same time as I was overtaking.
Maybe he/she didn't actually see me, or if they did, they expected me to come to a standstill behind the parked car before moving out and around it. I'm still not sure if I was in the wrong, but I don't have a handle-bar mirror and I wear glasses, so I have to turn my head a long way round to see clearly behind me.

grantmeaname

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2013, 06:49:47 AM »
It's also possible that your understanding of the law is incorrect. As I said, I've heard your position expressed, but so far as I can tell, the law here just prohibits ride-side passes that require leaving the roadway.
Traffic laws also vary significantly by state. The law in Ohio is very close to the way beltim describes it and not at all like the rules your picturing, but that's all I can speak to.

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2013, 09:55:53 PM »
It's also possible that your understanding of the law is incorrect. As I said, I've heard your position expressed, but so far as I can tell, the law here just prohibits ride-side passes that require leaving the roadway.
Traffic laws also vary significantly by state. The law in Ohio is very close to the way beltim describes it and not at all like the rules your picturing, but that's all I can speak to.

Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other. It's possible that it's specifically addressed for bikes, of course. My state, Oregon, prohibits it for motor cycles and motor scooters only, and prohibits automobiles from depriving motorcycles and motor scooters (but not bicycles) of the full lane.

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2013, 01:06:19 AM »
Incidentally, this week I was clipped (from behind) by a car trying to pass me in a single lane approaching a red light.

I always wonder why car drivers make such an effort to pass others on the road when approaching a very obvious stop condition.
This! This happened to me recently, except I was taking the lane. And the stupid car ran out of room and ended up having to stop in the other lane, with on-coming traffic trying to turn into that lane. I laughed and rode on my way. Lucky it was fairly early in the morning and not much traffic. And lucky the car didn't try to squish me out of my lane.

If you are cycling along near the kerb in a fairly narrow street where parking is permitted do you always check behind you when overtaking the parked car? I was in that situation this morning and was nearly clipped by a leaner driver passing me at the same time as I was overtaking.
Maybe he/she didn't actually see me, or if they did, they expected me to come to a standstill behind the parked car before moving out and around it. I'm still not sure if I was in the wrong, but I don't have a handle-bar mirror and I wear glasses, so I have to turn my head a long way round to see clearly behind me.
I probably wouldn't ride that close to the gutter, if I was going to get stuck behind parked cars. Surely you didn't see the car further off and merged into the centre of your lane quicker?

Rollin

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2013, 06:54:14 AM »
I hate it when cyclists blatantly ignore the rules of the road around pedestrians and motor vehicles. So in this case if 26 members of a cycling club all decided that stop signs are meant for everyone else, then perhaps they deserved their $100 reminder.  My only question would be was this stop sign in a sleepy neighborhood or in an area with significant traffic.  I'm not too proud to admit I ignore a few signs in my own sleepy neighborhood when I am clearly the only person on the road in any direction.  But once I get to a main road I become a part of traffic just like everyone else and the rules of the road apply, whether I see any cars or  not.

I agree - and I am an avid cyclist.  Just think of the message that was received by the cyclists.  The cop got through to 26 of them at one time!  They really make a bad name for other riders when they do this.  If the first part of the group stopped and the others followed behind cautiously, but didn't fully stop I could see letting that go, but my guess is that there wasn't even a hesitation by any in the group.  In that case the cop would have to use his discretion.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 08:05:53 AM by Rollin »

grantmeaname

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2013, 09:03:47 AM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2013, 10:09:44 AM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 10:20:55 AM by Undecided »

grantmeaname

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2013, 12:40:57 PM »
That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane.
It means you can't ride your vehicle in both lanes. Riding down the lane markers is riding in both lanes, and this prohibits it.

I would think that riding in the lane is prohibited by the minimum passing distance rules and the width of the lane. Either way, I've never seen anyone split lanes in six years of driving in Ohio and I'm sure they'd get pulled over in a heartbeat for trying it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 12:54:53 PM by grantmeaname »

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2013, 01:49:48 PM »
That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane.
It means you can't ride your vehicle in both lanes. Riding down the lane markers is riding in both lanes, and this prohibits it.

I would think that riding in the lane is prohibited by the minimum passing distance rules and the width of the lane. Either way, I've never seen anyone split lanes in six years of driving in Ohio and I'm sure they'd get pulled over in a heartbeat for trying it.

I ride a motorcycle, and did when I lived in California, where I split lanes by staying in a single lane, but not riding the line. There would be additional (physical) opportunities to pass by riding the line, but my personal sense of reasonableness and safety (and my instructor in my circa ~2008 Motorcycle Safety Foundation refresher course) discouraged that. As I pointed out, CA has a law similar to the one you cite, but a rider can be in compliance with it (and other laws) and still split lanes. Of course, in some cases it's certainly generally unreasonably dangerous, which is always an offense, but that depends on circumstances, so maybe a cop would ticket on that basis or maybe not. So maybe Ohio is another state where the bicycle filtering actually under discussion isn't illegal.

Just looking at a few states that were easy to check, MD, PA, MI, NV, AZ, CT also prohibit splitting for "motorcycles," so that's another 30 million people living in states where the basis for the presumption that bicycle filtering is illegal doesn't seem to hold.

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2013, 02:28:20 PM »
You're changing the topic from lane splitting on a motorcycle in moving traffic to filtering in stopped traffic on a bicycle. Which specifically were you referring to when you said "motorcycle" and "lane splitting" in the same sentence?

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2013, 02:33:08 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2013, 02:49:02 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

grantmeaname

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2013, 02:56:50 PM »
And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles.
Ah. Somehow I entirely missed that.

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2013, 03:12:04 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

If you're going to say I didn't read my link, it would behoove you to read the link.  From my link:
"The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle.

Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic.  That is not defined any further, indicating the problems with some of the statutes.

s. 316.084 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted

(1) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(b) Upon a street or highway with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving traffic in each direction."

I have never argued that lane splitting is always illegal.  I have made comments along two main lines: 1) "Cars take up too much space" is not a valid defense for when you illegally pass cars on a bicycle; 2) "Other people breaking the law" is also not a valid legal defense. 

You continue arguing against points that I am not making.

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2013, 03:13:12 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

Oh, and speaking of not reading, you must have missed the part (in the first paragraph) in my first citation that said "Additionally, the legal restrictions for lane splitting in each US state for motorcycles generally apply to bicycles as well."

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2013, 03:30:15 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

If you're going to say I didn't read my link, it would behoove you to read the link.  From my link:
"The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle.

Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic.  That is not defined any further, indicating the problems with some of the statutes.

s. 316.084 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted

(1) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(b) Upon a street or highway with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving traffic in each direction."

I have never argued that lane splitting is always illegal.  I have made comments along two main lines: 1) "Cars take up too much space" is not a valid defense for when you illegally pass cars on a bicycle; 2) "Other people breaking the law" is also not a valid legal defense. 

You continue arguing against points that I am not making.

Apologies if I misunderstood, but you said "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread. It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though)."

Apparently that's not what you meant, and you grant that it's not always illegal (do you see how I thought otherwise from that part in bold text?).

As to your point in your next post, the author's just wrong. Many states say that bicyclists on public roads have all the duties generally applicable to drivers of motor vehicles, that's true, but some states prohibit lane splitting by motor vehicles generally, like Illinois (in which case it would seem to apply equally to bicycles), while others specifically prohibit it only by specific subclasses, primarily either motorcycles or motorcycles and motor scooters.

If someone wants to know whether it's legal to cycle past stopped cars, it depends on the state, but it's not a difference between California and the other 49 states, and it's not necessarily the case that it's illegal even where lane-splitting by motorcycles has been prohibited. Again, apologies if I've misinterpreted what you wrote and I quoted above, but I still don't understand what else you could have meant.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 03:42:59 PM by Undecided »

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2013, 03:44:11 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

If you're going to say I didn't read my link, it would behoove you to read the link.  From my link:
"The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle.

Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic.  That is not defined any further, indicating the problems with some of the statutes.

s. 316.084 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted

(1) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(b) Upon a street or highway with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving traffic in each direction."

I have never argued that lane splitting is always illegal.  I have made comments along two main lines: 1) "Cars take up too much space" is not a valid defense for when you illegally pass cars on a bicycle; 2) "Other people breaking the law" is also not a valid legal defense. 

You continue arguing against points that I am not making.

Apologies if I misunderstood, but you said "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread. It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though)."

Apparently that's not what you meant, and you grant that it's not always illegal (do you see how I thought otherwise from that part in bold text?).

As to your point in your next post, the author's just wrong. Many states say that bicyclists on public roads have all the duties generally applicable to drivers of motor vehicles, that's true, but some states prohibit lane splitting by motor vehicles generally, like Illinois (in which case it would seem to apply equally to bicycles), while others specifically prohibit it only by specific subclasses, primarily either motorcycles or motorcycles and motor scooters.

The
Quote
"The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

wasn't me.  I was quoting Runge from earlier in the thread.  Hence the quotes. 

As for the bolded part, I was specifically talking about states where it is illegal.  My sources said this was most states, CA excepted, but I'm willing to admit my sources may be wrong.

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2013, 03:52:51 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

If you're going to say I didn't read my link, it would behoove you to read the link.  From my link:
"The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle.

Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic.  That is not defined any further, indicating the problems with some of the statutes.

s. 316.084 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted

(1) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(b) Upon a street or highway with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving traffic in each direction."

I have never argued that lane splitting is always illegal.  I have made comments along two main lines: 1) "Cars take up too much space" is not a valid defense for when you illegally pass cars on a bicycle; 2) "Other people breaking the law" is also not a valid legal defense. 

You continue arguing against points that I am not making.

Apologies if I misunderstood, but you said "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread. It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though)."

Apparently that's not what you meant, and you grant that it's not always illegal (do you see how I thought otherwise from that part in bold text?).

As to your point in your next post, the author's just wrong. Many states say that bicyclists on public roads have all the duties generally applicable to drivers of motor vehicles, that's true, but some states prohibit lane splitting by motor vehicles generally, like Illinois (in which case it would seem to apply equally to bicycles), while others specifically prohibit it only by specific subclasses, primarily either motorcycles or motorcycles and motor scooters.

The
Quote
"The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

wasn't me.  I was quoting Runge from earlier in the thread.  Hence the quotes. 

As for the bolded part, I was specifically talking about states where it is illegal.  My sources said this was most states, CA excepted, but I'm willing to admit my sources may be wrong.

I thought you were quoting it as expressing your position, not to try to isolate the topic of the thread, but I get it now.
The reason I've picked on this so much is that in addition to riding a bike about 15,000 miles a year, I've done a reasonable amount of pro bono work for bike advocacy groups, and a significant issue for some of them is motorist (and police) misunderstanding of how the law applies to bicyclists, based on what they just "know" to be true (informed solely by having earned a driver's license at 16, or by a very vague impression of a huge range of laws).

beltim

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2013, 03:59:23 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

If you're going to say I didn't read my link, it would behoove you to read the link.  From my link:
"The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle.

Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic.  That is not defined any further, indicating the problems with some of the statutes.

s. 316.084 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted

(1) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(b) Upon a street or highway with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving traffic in each direction."

I have never argued that lane splitting is always illegal.  I have made comments along two main lines: 1) "Cars take up too much space" is not a valid defense for when you illegally pass cars on a bicycle; 2) "Other people breaking the law" is also not a valid legal defense. 

You continue arguing against points that I am not making.

Apologies if I misunderstood, but you said "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread. It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though)."

Apparently that's not what you meant, and you grant that it's not always illegal (do you see how I thought otherwise from that part in bold text?).

As to your point in your next post, the author's just wrong. Many states say that bicyclists on public roads have all the duties generally applicable to drivers of motor vehicles, that's true, but some states prohibit lane splitting by motor vehicles generally, like Illinois (in which case it would seem to apply equally to bicycles), while others specifically prohibit it only by specific subclasses, primarily either motorcycles or motorcycles and motor scooters.

The
Quote
"The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

wasn't me.  I was quoting Runge from earlier in the thread.  Hence the quotes. 

As for the bolded part, I was specifically talking about states where it is illegal.  My sources said this was most states, CA excepted, but I'm willing to admit my sources may be wrong.

I thought you were quoting it as expressing your position, not to try to isolate the topic of the thread, but I get it now.
The reason I've picked on this so much is that in addition to riding a bike about 15,000 miles a year, I've done a reasonable amount of pro bono work for bike advocacy groups, and a significant issue for some of them is motorist (and police) misunderstanding of how the law applies to bicyclists, based on what they just "know" to be true (informed solely by having earned a driver's license at 16, or by a very vague impression of a huge range of laws).

I'm all for increased awareness of laws regarding bicyclists.  In addition to motorists and police, I'd add bicyclists and pedestrians to the list of people who need to be educated.  It's amazing how many bicyclists I see and hear from who are unaware of their rights and/or obligations.  And I see plenty of people walking in bike lanes around here, which I actually don't know if it's illegal, though I suspect it is.

Keep up the good work (as long as you're not arguing against points I haven't made ;)  !

Hamster

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2013, 08:06:50 PM »
Interestingly, the motorcycle advocacy groups generally say that Ohio law doesn't address lane splitting one way or the other.
ORC 4511.33(A)(1) seems pretty clear to me ("A vehicle or trackless trolley shall be driven, as nearly as is practicable, entirely within a single lane or line of traffic").

That doesn't even remotely say what you're claiming. That just says a vehicle can't straddle two lanes; it says nothing about two vehicles in a single lane. CA has the same requirement (section 21658 of its vehicle code), but there's nothing about it incompatible with lane splitting.

I'm sure there are some places where the bicycle filtering behavior under discussion is illegal, but the presumption that it is illegal in all the states other than California is wrong. Like OR, NY, MA and FL law prohibits "motorcycles" from passing a vehicle in the same lane. So at least a quarter of the country's population lives where lane splitting is permitted or the prohibition applies specifically to "motorcycles."

Queue jumping, which is what everyone else is talking about, is illegal in Florida: http://flbikelaw.org/2011/06/queue-jumping-bicyclists/

I don't have the time to look up other counter examples to correct any other possible mistakes you've made regarding other states.

Yes, you didn't even have time to read the link you found. Like where it says: "Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic."

And grantmeaname, I only introduced the discussion regarding lane-splitting by motorcycles because it the presumed illegality of that act (which includes filtering by motorcycles) had been put forward as the basis for presuming filtering by bicycles to be illegal. My point is that where laws have been adopted to prohibit lane splitting, they have at least sometimes been adopted solely in respect of motorcycles. The site that beltim cited (apparently without reading) discusses distinctions as to when filtering by bicycles may be legal or illegal in FL (which is to say, it discusses it as sometimes legal).

If you're going to say I didn't read my link, it would behoove you to read the link.  From my link:
"The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle must pass the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle at a safe distance of not less than 3 feet between the vehicle and the bicycle or other nonmotorized vehicle.

Cyclists overtaking and passing on the right is not unlawful under certain circumstances, such as when the lane is wide enough to allow two lines of traffic.  That is not defined any further, indicating the problems with some of the statutes.

s. 316.084 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted

(1) The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions:

(b) Upon a street or highway with unobstructed pavement not occupied by parked vehicles of sufficient width for two or more lines of moving traffic in each direction."

I have never argued that lane splitting is always illegal.  I have made comments along two main lines: 1) "Cars take up too much space" is not a valid defense for when you illegally pass cars on a bicycle; 2) "Other people breaking the law" is also not a valid legal defense. 

You continue arguing against points that I am not making.

Apologies if I misunderstood, but you said "The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front." from earlier in the thread. It's wrong when cars do it, and it's wrong when bicycles do it.  (Not in California, though)."

Apparently that's not what you meant, and you grant that it's not always illegal (do you see how I thought otherwise from that part in bold text?).

As to your point in your next post, the author's just wrong. Many states say that bicyclists on public roads have all the duties generally applicable to drivers of motor vehicles, that's true, but some states prohibit lane splitting by motor vehicles generally, like Illinois (in which case it would seem to apply equally to bicycles), while others specifically prohibit it only by specific subclasses, primarily either motorcycles or motorcycles and motor scooters.

The
Quote
"The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

wasn't me.  I was quoting Runge from earlier in the thread.  Hence the quotes. 

As for the bolded part, I was specifically talking about states where it is illegal.  My sources said this was most states, CA excepted, but I'm willing to admit my sources may be wrong.

I thought you were quoting it as expressing your position, not to try to isolate the topic of the thread, but I get it now.
The reason I've picked on this so much is that in addition to riding a bike about 15,000 miles a year, I've done a reasonable amount of pro bono work for bike advocacy groups, and a significant issue for some of them is motorist (and police) misunderstanding of how the law applies to bicyclists, based on what they just "know" to be true (informed solely by having earned a driver's license at 16, or by a very vague impression of a huge range of laws).

I'm all for increased awareness of laws regarding bicyclists.  In addition to motorists and police, I'd add bicyclists and pedestrians to the list of people who need to be educated.  It's amazing how many bicyclists I see and hear from who are unaware of their rights and/or obligations.  And I see plenty of people walking in bike lanes around here, which I actually don't know if it's illegal, though I suspect it is.

Keep up the good work (as long as you're not arguing against points I haven't made ;)  !
Just wanted to see how ridiculously long you can make a thread by quoting quotes of quotes of quotes of...

grantmeaname

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2013, 08:15:46 PM »
...
Just wanted to see how ridiculously long you can make a thread by quoting quotes of quotes of quotes of...
You can always judiciously trim things if you want to spare other posters the visual assault.

Dicey

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #93 on: September 16, 2013, 10:51:22 AM »


I'm sorry you live among such dumbfuck cyclists that they're riding on the sidewalks.

Careful there, Infogoon. There are a number of places in my area where riding on the sidewalk is the correct (and posted) thing to do. Generally it's where traffic is heavy and there is no room for cars and bicycles to pass safely. You'd be surprised how often I see cyclists riding on the road and not using the posted sidewalk lanes.

Undecided

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2013, 11:49:15 AM »


I'm sorry you live among such dumbfuck cyclists that they're riding on the sidewalks.

Careful there, Infogoon. There are a number of places in my area where riding on the sidewalk is the correct (and posted) thing to do. Generally it's where traffic is heavy and there is no room for cars and bicycles to pass safely. You'd be surprised how often I see cyclists riding on the road and not using the posted sidewalk lanes.

Diane C., your profile says you're in NorCal, and assuming that's where you mean, towns and cities shouldn't be requiring cyclists to use sidewalks (although they might permit it and even encourage it). In California, a cyclist can generally ride on any "highway" (which is effectively all kinds of roads) (under CVC 21200), except that a municipality or the state may ban bicycles from part or all of a freeway or expressway (under CVC 21960). A city or town may ban or restrict cycling on sidewalks (there's a lot of variation, with some banning it completely, some banning it in places and some, most charmingly, banning it except for children), but if the municipality hasn't restricted it, state law doesn't restrict it either (see CVC 21206). A municipality could require cyclists to use a bike lane on local roads (under CVC 21207), but that would be subject to complying with the bike lane standards under the Streets and Highways Code (starting at section 890) and the further safety criteria established by DOT. Because on-street bike lanes are part of a road and not open to pedestrians (except for crossing), it's hard to imagine one being called a "sidewalk."
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 12:20:58 PM by Undecided »

Rollin

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Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2013, 04:33:41 AM »
...
Just wanted to see how ridiculously long you can make a thread by quoting quotes of quotes of quotes of...
You can always judiciously trim things if you want to spare other posters the visual assault.

Good to point that out thanks.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but the tit for tat type posts are bypassed by me. Maybe they should just PM each other and resolve their spat.