Author Topic: Cycling hate!  (Read 27991 times)

Philly

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Cycling hate!
« on: August 25, 2013, 07:59:37 AM »
Family member posted this link on Facebook this morning:

http://m.now.msn.com/cop-tickets-cycling-club-that-ran-the-same-stop-sign

Rules of the road apply to bikes and cars, but not to protect cars!

DocCyane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Location: USA
  • Keep going. You're doing just fine.
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2013, 08:11:08 AM »
Where is the cycling hate? The fact that they got tickets or that drivers were happy to see someone enforce the law?

As a walker who gets pushed off the sidewalk on a regular basis by bicyclists, I'm happy to see the enforcement. When I drive, I stay away from cyclists because they don't signal, don't stop when required and generally seem erratic in their knowledge and interpretation of traffic rules.

A few months ago my life partner saw the aftermath of a beautiful 20-something college girl versus a FedEx truck. The girl lost. She wasn't wearing a helmet. They put a white bicycle and lots of flowers out on the corner where she was crushed. I think the tickets are a good thing.

fiveoclockshadow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 216
  • Location: Baltimore
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2013, 08:17:21 AM »

I fail to see the hate here. Cops protecting unsafe club from themselves. Sounds like a form of love.

Original unbiased article with the details:

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/08/23/4432346/prairie-village-takes-aim-at-bicycle.html

hybrid

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1686
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Richmond, Virginia
  • A hybrid of MMM and thoughtful consumer.
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2013, 08:21:39 AM »
I hate it when cyclists blatantly ignore the rules of the road around pedestrians and motor vehicles. So in this case if 26 members of a cycling club all decided that stop signs are meant for everyone else, then perhaps they deserved their $100 reminder.  My only question would be was this stop sign in a sleepy neighborhood or in an area with significant traffic.  I'm not too proud to admit I ignore a few signs in my own sleepy neighborhood when I am clearly the only person on the road in any direction.  But once I get to a main road I become a part of traffic just like everyone else and the rules of the road apply, whether I see any cars or  not.

Russ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Boulder, CO
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2013, 08:34:42 AM »
Gotta say I agree with everything in the Kansas City article. I'm not a fan of the tone from MSN, but that's how they sell news I guess.

IMO the law is the law. You can make the choice to break the law (as I do occasionally, and I'm sure many others do as well), but you'd better keep in mind the consequences and who's watching. I won't say the cyclists had it coming like the MSN article seemed to, but I don't think they should be surprised either.

Christof

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 677
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Germany
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2013, 10:03:11 AM »
A few months ago my life partner saw the aftermath of a beautiful 20-something college girl versus a FedEx truck. The girl lost. She wasn't wearing a helmet. They put a white bicycle and lots of flowers out on the corner where she was crushed. I think the tickets are a good thing.

In Fullerton? According to the press coverage it was the truck driver who didn't stop. She had the right of way, apparently. Also, the lack of wearing a helmet seems to be a bit over-stressed. There's no evidence that a helmet would have saved her life. It was a moving truck that hit her, after all. Even cars don't look good after they hit a truck at cruising speed.

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2013, 10:08:18 AM »
As a cyclist who rides several thousand miles a year, maybe they deserved it maybe they didn't. 

If a car runs a stop sign and hits another car or a person, there is a good likelihood of death or injury to the innocent party.  If a bicyclist on an 18 pound bike hits a car because they blew through the stop sign, the car might have a dent, but the cyclist may be dead.  If the cyclist hits a pedestrian, then the pedestrian may be seriously injured.  Lastly, I don't need the police to "protect me" from myself.  I can make an informed decision, based on my own risk assessment and the impact my actions may have on others.

This applies to helmets and traffic laws.  I do however, fully respect the police role in protecting others from my actions.  Laws are laws, but a little common sense goes a long way.

When I come to a stop sign in the middle of nowhere, I look in all directions.  If there is a car anywhere in sight, I stop completely.  If there is no car to be seen for miles, I run the stop sign.  See above regarding consequences and risk assessment.  If I were riding through a major city with tons of traffic and pedestrians, I would act differently due to the potential impact on 3rd parties.

I was actually on a group ride where the leaders were pulled over for rolling a stop sign (I saw the officer and stopped).  They somewhat deserved it because a) it wasn't a remote stop sign and b) they didn't slow down nearly enough to assess the situation.  Here's the irony to the story however, the officer who pulled them over passed us on an uphill double yellow to set up the "sting."

Midwest

DocCyane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Location: USA
  • Keep going. You're doing just fine.
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 11:12:19 AM »
A few months ago my life partner saw the aftermath of a beautiful 20-something college girl versus a FedEx truck. The girl lost. She wasn't wearing a helmet. They put a white bicycle and lots of flowers out on the corner where she was crushed. I think the tickets are a good thing.

In Fullerton? According to the press coverage it was the truck driver who didn't stop. She had the right of way, apparently. Also, the lack of wearing a helmet seems to be a bit over-stressed. There's no evidence that a helmet would have saved her life. It was a moving truck that hit her, after all. Even cars don't look good after they hit a truck at cruising speed.

Yes, the accident in Fullerton. I'm not sure if they ruled on the issue yet, but I think she did have the right of way. The point is if you choose to be a cyclist, you need to ride defensively, including wearing a helmet and assuming no one sees you.

I just came back from a walk where a cyclist pushed me off the sidewalk (yet again) so my charity for this group is low at the moment.

Noodle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1292
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 11:30:23 AM »
I have seen bicyclists go through stop signs in my neighborhood three times in the last four days--it was to the point where I wondered if I was incorrect in my understanding that they are supposed to stop. Twice it wasn't immediately dangerous (although I thought it was dumb--people are pulling out of their driveways and may not expect a bike there) but once a guy went flying through a four-way stop with cars lined up in all four directions. It scared the heck out of me. Even if I weren't at fault, I'd be devastated if someone got hurt when I was driving.

Unfortunately bike culture is relatively new to my city and it's sort of the Wild West. Many bicyclists don't know or follow the law, drivers don't know what to expect or how to behave (and a lot don't like bikes, see above behavior), and the police don't consider bike enforcement a high priority.

NinetyFour

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7076
  • Location: Southwestern US
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2013, 11:35:15 AM »
Slightly off topic, but--I don't like it when I am hiking on a mountain trail, see a mountain biker approaching, go out of my way to yield the trail to her/him, and then the biker passes without even acknowledging me.  I usually say, out loud and clearly, "You're welcome!" 

I say this as a mountain biker myself.  (And a road biker.) Whenever anyone (car, pedestrian, biker, horseback rider) yields for me, I show appreciation!

Russ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Boulder, CO
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 11:36:43 AM »
Slightly off topic, but--I don't like it when I am hiking on a mountain trail, see a mountain biker approaching, go out of my way to yield the trail to her/him, and then the biker passes without even acknowledging me.  I usually say, out loud and clearly, "You're welcome!" 

I say this as a mountain biker myself.  (And a road biker.) Whenever anyone (car, pedestrian, biker, horseback rider) yields for me, I show appreciation!

This is one of the things I dislike about biking on multi-use paths. I wave, and nobody waves back. Everyone on the road waves

Christof

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 677
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Germany
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2013, 11:44:32 AM »
The point is if you choose to be a cyclist, you need to ride defensively, including wearing a helmet and assuming no one sees you.

I do agree on riding defensively and always assuming no one sees you. I also agree that cyclist should have the same rights and obligations as other participants which includes getting tickets for not abiding the law. It was confusing, though, to see the Fullerton accident been mentioned in a thread about bad cyclist behavior, but I don't think you wanted to imply that she somehow deserves this, because she wasn't riding defensively enough.

On the helmet... well, that topic doesn't need to be discussed in yet another tread.

DocCyane

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 390
  • Location: USA
  • Keep going. You're doing just fine.
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 12:30:49 PM »
The point is if you choose to be a cyclist, you need to ride defensively, including wearing a helmet and assuming no one sees you.

I do agree on riding defensively and always assuming no one sees you. I also agree that cyclist should have the same rights and obligations as other participants which includes getting tickets for not abiding the law. It was confusing, though, to see the Fullerton accident been mentioned in a thread about bad cyclist behavior, but I don't think you wanted to imply that she somehow deserves this, because she wasn't riding defensively enough.

On the helmet... well, that topic doesn't need to be discussed in yet another tread.

You're completely right. The Fullerton accident was just a sad, terrible thing that happened and I didn't mean to imply the young lady was at fault or she deserved her fate. I meant it as a prime example of what can happen when motorists and cyclists share space and someone fails to follow the rules.

BlueMR2

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2066
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2013, 12:39:42 PM »
Don't obey the laws and it certainly increases your chances of getting a ticket.

Running stop signs is one of the reasons I quit riding with a local club.  The way they do it is perfectly safe, but it's not legal.  I try very hard not to invite "the man" into my life, it can only end in sadness and expense.  I love cycling and am very careful to obey the laws to the letter, even the ones I don't agree with (some of the laws are counter productive and decrease safety).  Around here, we have a process for getting bad laws changed.  It may not work all that well, but we do have a process, so we should try it!

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3300
  • Age: 60
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2013, 02:54:31 PM »
Rules of the road apply to bikes and cars, but not to protect cars!
"Cycling hate"?!?

I spent years and thousand of miles commuting on my bicycle while obeying the rules, and it really bugs the crap out of me to see a rude cyclist who can't follow the rules or share the road.

When I get the one-finger salute from such a rider, I pull off the road to have a little discussion with the offender... complete with a video recording and, if necessary, a 911 call.  I'd rather subject them to a little personal feedback on their behavior than have them get themselves killed or cause some other driver to swerve into traffic to avoid hitting them.

Having said that, the rude riders tend to be a very very small percentage of the riders I encounter.  I like to think of it as "survivor bias".

davisgang90

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
  • Location: Roanoke, VA
    • Photography by Rich Davis
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2013, 04:03:56 PM »
When I am riding my bike and come up to a 4 way stop with no other cars in sight, I slow, check for traffic and proceed.  If there are cars present I always stop unless they wave me through.

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2013, 08:16:45 PM »
It really depends.  They could have rolled through the stop sign at 5 mph and it would have been perfectly safe.  It's a giant pain in the ass, and far more dangerous, to clip out of pedals, stop, and re-start than it is to roll the stop sign.

Particularly if this was the early morning as many group rides are, it would seem reasonable they would signal to each other that the ones in the front could wave the ones in the back through if there wasn't a car.

Hamster

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2013, 10:38:28 PM »
I have mixed feelings on this issue.

Bikes need to obey the rules of the road. So do cars.

And cops need to apply the law equally. If cops ticket car drivers going 5mph over the speed limit, or who roll stop signs, or roll right turns on red rather than coming to a complete stop, then by all means ticket the cyclists too for minor infractions. If the cops aren't that strict with the cars, then I think it's harrassment if they ticket bikes for the same thing.

As for me on a bike, I roll through stop signs when there are no cars around. I stop for all red lights (But I have one intersection where I'll take off again before the light changes green because the pavement triggers won't register my bike). I also stop for stop signs when there are cars nearby. I don't think rolling stop signs in sight of a car is worth the ill-will that it creates toward cyclists. The driver I piss off could be the one to get all road-ragey on the next cyclist.

Nudelkopf

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 900
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Australia
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 04:24:42 AM »
Riding to work, I approach my stops/give-way signs quite slowly, but don't actually stop if it's clear.  I tend to wait too long at intersections if I can see a car coming. Sorry to the cars behind me, but I'm pretty slow.

I'm aware that I can get fines for not obeying all rules - e.g. I don't signal if there's no one around.  But I guess I'd never (?) get a ticket - cos if there're cars around (e.g. cop cars) then I'm way more cautious than if I'm all alone on my country roads. Hmmm. Can't be too careful, I guess.

TLV

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Bellevue, WA
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 10:47:31 AM »
I also stop for stop signs when there are cars nearby. I don't think rolling stop signs in sight of a car is worth the ill-will that it creates toward cyclists. The driver I piss off could be the one to get all road-ragey on the next cyclist.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I've had drivers honk at me for obeying the law and stopping completely (so they were stuck behind me an extra second or two), but never for rolling through.

A while back I started observing cars to see what they do at the intersections I frequent. Well over 90% of the cars will roll through the stop sign unless they would hit someone by doing so, and the small fraction that do stop completely are all professional shuttle drivers.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17430
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 12:44:40 PM »
One problem that I find is that many stop signs are stupid and unnecessary.  I live in a suburban area.  We have dozens of 4-way stop signs in places where there's rarely every any traffic, and there's good visibility in all directions for a long distances.  These stop signs are typically treated more as yield signs by everyone - cars and bikes.  I don't see why I should stop if there's no safety benefit in doing so.  I would love the introduction of roundabouts for these places.  It's too bad nobody in north america knows what to do in one . . .

TLV

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Bellevue, WA
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 12:57:55 PM »
I would love the introduction of roundabouts for these places.  It's too bad nobody in north america knows what to do in one . . .

I have an irrational hatred of car drivers that stop in the middle of the roundabout to let me enter it.

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2013, 01:48:36 PM »
I would love the introduction of roundabouts for these places.  It's too bad nobody in north america knows what to do in one . . .

I have an irrational hatred of car drivers that stop in the middle of the roundabout to let me enter it.

Indicate left when entering the roundabout and right when exiting (might be reversed if you drive on the left side of the road).  There's nothing worse than an idiot indicating right, trying to pass on the left, and they cut over into you.

The other problem in the US is most 'roundabouts' are actually circulatory traffic control systems as they require the user to come to a complete stop prior to entering the so-called roundabout.
Like this

prodarwin

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2013, 02:36:52 PM »
I would love the introduction of roundabouts for these places.  It's too bad nobody in north america knows what to do in one . . .

I have an irrational hatred of car drivers that stop in the middle of the roundabout to let me enter it.

That sounds pretty rational actually.

davisgang90

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
  • Location: Roanoke, VA
    • Photography by Rich Davis
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2013, 06:18:46 PM »
This thought occurred to me on the ride home today.  I think car drivers might be willing to cut cyclists a little more slack at stop signs if in order for a car to "stop" the driver had to put the car in park and turn off the ignition before restarting the car and driving through the intersection.

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2013, 07:00:34 PM »
What if the law was changed such that cyclists could treat stop signs and traffic lights with no cars present as yield signs?  I think most cyclists are doing that anyway.  I slow down as necessary to assess the situation and stop fully if cars are present.

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2013, 07:12:22 PM »
What if the law was changed such that cyclists could treat stop signs and traffic lights with no cars present as yield signs?  I think most cyclists are doing that anyway.  I slow down as necessary to assess the situation and stop fully if cars are present.

As discussed earlier, what if everything was just a yield sign with big circles in the middle of the intersection?

Rich M

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 191
  • Location: Boulder, CO
  • Fortune Kookie
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2013, 08:46:32 PM »
Amazingly, Today I saw.

....I saw two cars turn right on red without stopping.
....I saw a car run a red light.
....I saw a pedestrian Jay Walking.
....I saw a car do a cali-stop on a stop sign.
....I saw someone cut me off on a right turn.
....I saw a guy almost clip me cutting a left turn.

Actually, not amazing!...

A typical day on my bike commute...except for Friday when it's look out for your life because every driver, it seems, is breaking the law--or more like in a hurry and not looking while they break the law.

No, what is really incredible, being on a bike riding daily to work,  is how I see this every single day and I see it over and over.  But when A cyclist (or a pack of them) does it, it's suddenly a crime and the outrage explodes--mostly from the motorist folks.

The outrage is diluted in normal driving because everyone is used to it in a car that another car will run that light or cut them off or whatever.  It's expected that other cars do it so much that it's not even noticed. 

The fact is, there are umpteen times more motorists breaking laws that cyclists just by sheer numbers.  Laws are about safety and maybe that part should be reinforced not whether someone rolled through a stop sign when nobody was there.  I, as a cyclist, will not roll trough a stop sign normally but if nobody is around except a cop parked down the road waiting in prey?  Hells Ya!

« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 09:00:19 PM by Rich M »

Midwest

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1358
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2013, 07:01:07 AM »
What if the law was changed such that cyclists could treat stop signs and traffic lights with no cars present as yield signs?  I think most cyclists are doing that anyway.  I slow down as necessary to assess the situation and stop fully if cars are present.

As discussed earlier, what if everything was just a yield sign with big circles in the middle of the intersection?

Would work.  Realistically, don't think Americans are going to add roundabouts to every intersection to appease cyclists.  Personally, I prefer stops signs for cars. 

In the US, stops signs are used to control intersections and to control traffic speed.  Don't think bikes are contributing too much to the traffic speed problem.

Deano

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 213
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 07:04:13 AM »
A few months ago my life partner saw the aftermath of a beautiful 20-something college girl versus a FedEx truck. The girl lost. She wasn't wearing a helmet. They put a white bicycle and lots of flowers out on the corner where she was crushed. I think the tickets are a good thing.

In Fullerton? According to the press coverage it was the truck driver who didn't stop. She had the right of way, apparently. Also, the lack of wearing a helmet seems to be a bit over-stressed. There's no evidence that a helmet would have saved her life. It was a moving truck that hit her, after all. Even cars don't look good after they hit a truck at cruising speed.

Yes, the accident in Fullerton. I'm not sure if they ruled on the issue yet, but I think she did have the right of way. The point is if you choose to be a cyclist, you need to ride defensively, including wearing a helmet and assuming no one sees you.

I just came back from a walk where a cyclist pushed me off the sidewalk (yet again) so my charity for this group is low at the moment.

Cyclists don't ride on sidewalks, people on bicycles do. There is a distinction.

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2013, 07:51:37 AM »
What if the law was changed such that cyclists could treat stop signs and traffic lights with no cars present as yield signs?  I think most cyclists are doing that anyway.  I slow down as necessary to assess the situation and stop fully if cars are present.

As discussed earlier, what if everything was just a yield sign with big circles in the middle of the intersection?

Would work.  Realistically, don't think Americans are going to add roundabouts to every intersection to appease cyclists.  Personally, I prefer stops signs for cars. 

In the US, stops signs are used to control intersections and to control traffic speed.  Don't think bikes are contributing too much to the traffic speed problem.

But they ought to add them for more efficient traffic control.  Roundabouts provide fewer opportunities for accidents, and all accidents occur in ways that minimize the damage (two cars merging on each other as opposed to head on collisions).  They've also been shown to increase mileage.

infogoon

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 840
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2013, 07:59:10 AM »
I just came back from a walk where a cyclist pushed me off the sidewalk (yet again) so my charity for this group is low at the moment.

I'm sorry you live among such dumbfuck cyclists that they're riding on the sidewalks.

AlanStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2061
  • Age: 41
  • Location: South East Virginia
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2013, 08:05:03 AM »
I drove 74 in a 60 mph this morning on the way into work, not one person batted an eye, most everyone else was doing the same.  I do still some road riding riding every now and then and I will roll a stop when it is safe.  It all depends on what you can see around you.  Also when riding in a group and a light changes to yellow it can be much safer to keep going and maybe clip the red than to have everyone stop on the brakes and maybe bang into each other, think large trucks on county roads.

I loved the comment about making drivers stop the engine at each stop sign to prove they are fully stopped as cyclists seem to have to do.

Last week I was crossing the street in a cross walk and a driver did not stop to let me cross-I had to slow down and was delayed.  So this week I when I saw a random driver about to pull away I stood in his way and kicked his bumper, as I know that all drivers are a$$ hats and deserve it and I as a pedestrian have universal right to all the road.  This is how many drivers look at cyclists.

davisgang90

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
  • Location: Roanoke, VA
    • Photography by Rich Davis
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2013, 10:20:08 AM »
What if the law was changed such that cyclists could treat stop signs and traffic lights with no cars present as yield signs?  I think most cyclists are doing that anyway.  I slow down as necessary to assess the situation and stop fully if cars are present.

As discussed earlier, what if everything was just a yield sign with big circles in the middle of the intersection?

Would work.  Realistically, don't think Americans are going to add roundabouts to every intersection to appease cyclists.  Personally, I prefer stops signs for cars. 

In the US, stops signs are used to control intersections and to control traffic speed.  Don't think bikes are contributing too much to the traffic speed problem.

But they ought to add them for more efficient traffic control.  Roundabouts provide fewer opportunities for accidents, and all accidents occur in ways that minimize the damage (two cars merging on each other as opposed to head on collisions).  They've also been shown to increase mileage.
Unfortunately, most Americans lack the decision making skills to properly navigate a roundabout.

Runge

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 219
  • Location: TX
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2013, 10:23:04 AM »
What if the law was changed such that cyclists could treat stop signs and traffic lights with no cars present as yield signs?  I think most cyclists are doing that anyway.  I slow down as necessary to assess the situation and stop fully if cars are present.

As discussed earlier, what if everything was just a yield sign with big circles in the middle of the intersection?

Would work.  Realistically, don't think Americans are going to add roundabouts to every intersection to appease cyclists.  Personally, I prefer stops signs for cars. 

In the US, stops signs are used to control intersections and to control traffic speed.  Don't think bikes are contributing too much to the traffic speed problem.

But they ought to add them for more efficient traffic control.  Roundabouts provide fewer opportunities for accidents, and all accidents occur in ways that minimize the damage (two cars merging on each other as opposed to head on collisions).  They've also been shown to increase mileage.

I agree that more roundabouts should be installed, but as a fellow cyclist I sure hope they install them properly. Certain designs actually make roundabouts MORE dangerous for cyclists than a typical stop sign, and different roundabout designs make it less dangerous for cyclists than typical stop signs. It all depends on how the roundabout treats a cyclist. If there is a dedicated bike lane along the perimeter of the hub, then cyclist death/injury greatly increases. But if the cyclist is treated just like a car and is allowed to take up the whole lane and (s)he rides in the center of the lane, then safety goes up.

There was a study done by the German Transport Ministry in 1992 here: http://bernd.sluka.de/Radfahren/Vortragsfolien.html
It's in German, so you'll have to translate it.

russianswinga

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 214
  • Age: 37
  • Location: San Diego, California, USA
  • Truth is just an excuse for a lack of imagination
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2013, 01:12:00 PM »
OK, wanted to get some cyclists' perspective
I have a dashcam on my car. (What, you don't? And you call yourselves mustaschian?? ;) )
What would the fault be in this situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eq712UocW0
Notice the GREEN right turn arrow. Cyclist had a RED light.
If I didn't hit the brakes in time, and I only saw him right as I applied the brake pedal - I was looking right at the time he first appears in the camera view.....
Whose fault would it have been?
How about if he died?
Who pays for damages to my car if he's at fault?

His light is red, he blasts through it at full speed across a 6-lane intersection.
(And I hope that answers why I have a dashcam - to prove my light was green)

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2013, 01:16:17 PM »
OK, wanted to get some cyclists' perspective
I have a dashcam on my car. (What, you don't? And you call yourselves mustaschian?? ;) )
What would the fault be in this situation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eq712UocW0
Notice the GREEN right turn arrow. Cyclist had a RED light.
If I didn't hit the brakes in time, and I only saw him right as I applied the brake pedal - I was looking right at the time he first appears in the camera view.....
Whose fault would it have been?
How about if he died?
Who pays for damages to my car if he's at fault?

His light is red, he blasts through it at full speed across a 6-lane intersection.
(And I hope that answers why I have a dashcam - to prove my light was green)

He's clearly at fault.  His health insurance pays for his medical.  Life insurance pays for his death.  You probably have to fix your own car because he probably doesn't have bicycle insurance, but maybe he'll have to pay you out of pocket?

DougStache

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 97
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2013, 08:51:26 PM »
As a cyclist, you shouldn't do anything to disturb the car drivers. You dont do the cycling community any good by being remembered by a driver.
A million times this.

Cyclists have the same rights to the roads as cars, but need to follow the same rules.  However until cyclists actually do follow the same rules, cars will not treat us like we have the same rights to the road.

mpbaker22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2013, 09:10:43 PM »
As a cyclist, you shouldn't do anything to disturb the car drivers. You dont do the cycling community any good by being remembered by a driver.


I disagree.  If a driver does something stupid and illegal and an opportunity presents itself to discuss what happened with the driver, you better make damn well sure he remembers you.

Runge

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 219
  • Location: TX
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2013, 06:45:09 AM »
If you move up in the line, you deserve to be curbed at the third light.

This is one of my pet-peeves as a cyclist. It really irritates me when I see a cyclists pass at light the handful of cars that JUST passed him, only to be passed again once it turns green. You're not saving yourself that much time, and you're only unnecessarily pissing off the drivers that have to pass you again. The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17430
  • Age: 39
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2013, 07:15:39 AM »
If you move up in the line, you deserve to be curbed at the third light.

This is one of my pet-peeves as a cyclist. It really irritates me when I see a cyclists pass at light the handful of cars that JUST passed him, only to be passed again once it turns green. You're not saving yourself that much time, and you're only unnecessarily pissing off the drivers that have to pass you again. The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

I used to think this way.  I agree with it mostly if you're in an area where traffic is moving well.  Since I've started cycling more in heavy traffic I no longer think it's the best all of the time though.

If there are 10-15 cars waiting at a light, and I want to make a right turn, why shouldn't I be allowed to filter up and make my turn while they're stopped?  If traffic is gridlocked and moving at extremely slow speeds, I'll filter through the cars and get to where I'm going.  It doesn't make sense to sit behind slow moving traffic for 20 minutes to go six blocks up the street.  Telling people to cycle like that on the road is the reason that they will do really stupid things like cycle on the sidewalk.

I drive too.  You have to be a tremendously poor driver to be so inconvenienced by a cyclist that passing him or her twice on your trip angers you (although this might depend on how narrow your roads are, and how many lanes there are).

Hamster

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2013, 09:41:06 AM »
What if the law was changed such that cyclists could treat stop signs and traffic lights with no cars present as yield signs?  I think most cyclists are doing that anyway.  I slow down as necessary to assess the situation and stop fully if cars are present.

As discussed earlier, what if everything was just a yield sign with big circles in the middle of the intersection?

Would work.  Realistically, don't think Americans are going to add roundabouts to every intersection to appease cyclists.  Personally, I prefer stops signs for cars. 

In the US, stops signs are used to control intersections and to control traffic speed.  Don't think bikes are contributing too much to the traffic speed problem.

But they ought to add them for more efficient traffic control.  Roundabouts provide fewer opportunities for accidents, and all accidents occur in ways that minimize the damage (two cars merging on each other as opposed to head on collisions).  They've also been shown to increase mileage.
Unfortunately, most Americans lack the decision making skills to properly navigate a roundabout.

Next year, when you come visit Bellingham, I can give you a tour of all of our new traffic circles. WA DOT has been building them like crazy around here lately. Even when people don't know what they are doing, it still works better than the stopsigns/lights that they replaced. I have 2 traffic circles on my bike commute, and they are WAY better than stopsigns/lights. But, you do have to be extra defensive and make sure that you position your bike where cars approaching the circle won't kill you if they do it wrong. It's pretty easy/safe to claim the center of the lane on the ones I ride since the speed limit in the circles is 15, and they are curvy enough that cars rarely exceed that. The only danger is unaware drivers entering the circle when they should yield.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 09:48:26 AM by Hamster »

davisgang90

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
  • Location: Roanoke, VA
    • Photography by Rich Davis
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2013, 09:48:08 AM »
Hamster,

I was only (mostly) kidding about traffic circles.  I'd love to get together next year if you have time to show/tell me about Bellingham!

PindyStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
  • Location: Minneapolis
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2013, 12:46:18 PM »
If you move up in the line, you deserve to be curbed at the third light.

This is one of my pet-peeves as a cyclist. It really irritates me when I see a cyclists pass at light the handful of cars that JUST passed him, only to be passed again once it turns green. You're not saving yourself that much time, and you're only unnecessarily pissing off the drivers that have to pass you again. The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

I used to think this way.  I agree with it mostly if you're in an area where traffic is moving well.  Since I've started cycling more in heavy traffic I no longer think it's the best all of the time though.

If there are 10-15 cars waiting at a light, and I want to make a right turn, why shouldn't I be allowed to filter up and make my turn while they're stopped?  If traffic is gridlocked and moving at extremely slow speeds, I'll filter through the cars and get to where I'm going.  It doesn't make sense to sit behind slow moving traffic for 20 minutes to go six blocks up the street.  Telling people to cycle like that on the road is the reason that they will do really stupid things like cycle on the sidewalk.

I drive too.  You have to be a tremendously poor driver to be so inconvenienced by a cyclist that passing him or her twice on your trip angers you (although this might depend on how narrow your roads are, and how many lanes there are).

I'm curious about why you think this JKaiser, could you explain more?

I am a regular commuter cyclist (~5k miles/yr) but am still trying to fine tune coexistence with cars (until the day they see the light and start biking too!). In most cases I will pass stopped cars on the right at a stoplight and am courteous to cars passing me. I do so at lower speeds and attention to potential right turns. There are several points on my route (urban mix of trails & smaller 25-35mph roads) where cars are often backed up for several cycles of a traffic light, so waiting would be especially painful. Times I would wait behind cars would be if the road is narrow and not enough room due to large vehicles/construction/snow/etc. or if there are just a couple cars who very recently passed me I do stop behind them. In general I find "If you can pass me I can pass you" to be a sort of golden rule for mostly harmonious coexistence.

I'm also curious about cycling through roundabouts (in the US...). There is one on my route that also has a bike trail, except that the bike trail crosses each entering/exiting road on the outskirts of the roundabout instead of threading through the middle of it. To me it seems much safer to be on the road, claim a central position in a lane, and go through as a car rather than trying to cross several crosswalks where drivers already have a lot of other things to pay attention to. Do others encounter similar situations or how is this done in other countries?

Undecided

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2013, 01:12:15 PM »
If you move up in the line, you deserve to be curbed at the third light.

This is one of my pet-peeves as a cyclist. It really irritates me when I see a cyclists pass at light the handful of cars that JUST passed him, only to be passed again once it turns green. You're not saving yourself that much time, and you're only unnecessarily pissing off the drivers that have to pass you again. The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

I used to think this way.  I agree with it mostly if you're in an area where traffic is moving well.  Since I've started cycling more in heavy traffic I no longer think it's the best all of the time though.

If there are 10-15 cars waiting at a light, and I want to make a right turn, why shouldn't I be allowed to filter up and make my turn while they're stopped?  If traffic is gridlocked and moving at extremely slow speeds, I'll filter through the cars and get to where I'm going.  It doesn't make sense to sit behind slow moving traffic for 20 minutes to go six blocks up the street.  Telling people to cycle like that on the road is the reason that they will do really stupid things like cycle on the sidewalk.

I drive too.  You have to be a tremendously poor driver to be so inconvenienced by a cyclist that passing him or her twice on your trip angers you (although this might depend on how narrow your roads are, and how many lanes there are).

I'm curious about why you think this JKaiser, could you explain more?

I am a regular commuter cyclist (~5k miles/yr) but am still trying to fine tune coexistence with cars (until the day they see the light and start biking too!). In most cases I will pass stopped cars on the right at a stoplight and am courteous to cars passing me. I do so at lower speeds and attention to potential right turns. There are several points on my route (urban mix of trails & smaller 25-35mph roads) where cars are often backed up for several cycles of a traffic light, so waiting would be especially painful. Times I would wait behind cars would be if the road is narrow and not enough room due to large vehicles/construction/snow/etc. or if there are just a couple cars who very recently passed me I do stop behind them. In general I find "If you can pass me I can pass you" to be a sort of golden rule for mostly harmonious coexistence.


I've never understand the object to this as any sort of absolute, although if it's a situation where the cyclist will actually delay the cars, I get it. But in nearly all my experience, in settings where cars are actually moving significantly faster than I'm moving on my bike, there's room for them to pass me (and for me to pass them) without anyone having to leave their ordinary path of travel, in which case I don't see a problem with it.

Hamster

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 623
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2013, 07:52:57 PM »
If you move up in the line, you deserve to be curbed at the third light.

This is one of my pet-peeves as a cyclist. It really irritates me when I see a cyclists pass at light the handful of cars that JUST passed him, only to be passed again once it turns green. You're not saving yourself that much time, and you're only unnecessarily pissing off the drivers that have to pass you again. The only times passing at a light (to me, and when you DON'T have your own lane) is acceptable is if you're turning right. Otherwise just be patient, pull up behind the car in front of you, chill in the center of the lane so the car behind you doesn't try to pass you while you're in line or in the intersection, and enjoy the noxious fumes coming out of the car in front.

I used to think this way.  I agree with it mostly if you're in an area where traffic is moving well.  Since I've started cycling more in heavy traffic I no longer think it's the best all of the time though.

If there are 10-15 cars waiting at a light, and I want to make a right turn, why shouldn't I be allowed to filter up and make my turn while they're stopped?  If traffic is gridlocked and moving at extremely slow speeds, I'll filter through the cars and get to where I'm going.  It doesn't make sense to sit behind slow moving traffic for 20 minutes to go six blocks up the street.  Telling people to cycle like that on the road is the reason that they will do really stupid things like cycle on the sidewalk.

I drive too.  You have to be a tremendously poor driver to be so inconvenienced by a cyclist that passing him or her twice on your trip angers you (although this might depend on how narrow your roads are, and how many lanes there are).

I'm curious about why you think this JKaiser, could you explain more?

I am a regular commuter cyclist (~5k miles/yr) but am still trying to fine tune coexistence with cars (until the day they see the light and start biking too!). In most cases I will pass stopped cars on the right at a stoplight and am courteous to cars passing me. I do so at lower speeds and attention to potential right turns. There are several points on my route (urban mix of trails & smaller 25-35mph roads) where cars are often backed up for several cycles of a traffic light, so waiting would be especially painful. Times I would wait behind cars would be if the road is narrow and not enough room due to large vehicles/construction/snow/etc. or if there are just a couple cars who very recently passed me I do stop behind them. In general I find "If you can pass me I can pass you" to be a sort of golden rule for mostly harmonious coexistence.


I've never understand the object to this as any sort of absolute, although if it's a situation where the cyclist will actually delay the cars, I get it. But in nearly all my experience, in settings where cars are actually moving significantly faster than I'm moving on my bike, there's room for them to pass me (and for me to pass them) without anyone having to leave their ordinary path of travel, in which case I don't see a problem with it.

I almost always get in line with the cars. My reasons:
1) The right hook (a car in the right lane, not realizing you are to their right, and then turning right and hitting you) is one of the most deadly bike/car interactions.
2) When I'm in line with traffic at a stop light, I think it makes motorists see very visibly that I am following the same rules they are, and I think it improves goodwill/respect toward cyclists.

That said, I have almost no areas where getting in line slows my total commute down by more than a couple of minutes. There is one intersection on my commute where traffic sometimes sits for as many as 3 cycles of the stoplights. When I'm behind a big line there, I will sometimes pass traffic on the right (or even between two lanes going the same direction), but am very careful to make sure that I'm safe at any place where cars could possibly turn into me. If I had more spots like this on my commute I might do more passing stopped traffic.

As for traffic circles, I think taking the whole lane is the only safe way to do it. I don't want to get hit by a car that passes me and then takes a right, so I won't ride to the right of the lane. But, the traffic circles I ride through have speed limit of 15mph (maybe 25mph on the county highway, but I don't ride through that circle much since it's a crappy road for cycling).

kyleaaa

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 327
    • Kyle Bumpus
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2013, 11:39:31 AM »
When cyclists do things like run stop lights and signs (I see it all the time), they create a VERY REAL DANGER not only to themselves but also nearby motorists. More than once I have swerved or slammed on the brakes to avoid a stupid cyclist trying to rush through a red light only to narrowly miss hitting another car. The rules exist to protect motorists just as much as cyclists.

prodarwin

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2013, 10:22:36 AM »
Question - if the queue of cars is too big to make it through the light, do you guys sit in line with them through several light cycles?  Or head up to toward the front to make it through on the first cycle?

PindyStache

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 241
  • Location: Minneapolis
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2013, 11:47:57 AM »
Question - if the queue of cars is too big to make it through the light, do you guys sit in line with them through several light cycles?  Or head up to toward the front to make it through on the first cycle?

I think there are a variety of responses to this question already across the forum. I will usually slow down but pass cars, though it depends on the street/situation. Others don't because of safety. It is certainly less safe than just waiting at the back of the line, but I've never really had a problem doing with it, though if you do you have to be ready for any car to turn right at any time.

Christof

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 677
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Germany
Re: Cycling hate!
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2013, 01:38:30 PM »
Question - if the queue of cars is too big to make it through the light, do you guys sit in line with them through several light cycles?  Or head up to toward the front to make it through on the first cycle?

I either wait, or get off my bike and walk past the line of cars on the sidewalk...