Author Topic: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?  (Read 28826 times)

wepner

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2013, 06:11:04 PM »

Don't know anything about the person in question, but a refusal to use whatever's currently politically correct language does not equate to being a racist.

Absurd why?  I've known quite a few black people to use the "N word": are they all racist?  If it's possible for a black person to use it without being racist, why isn't it possible for a white person to do so?  And if you say it's not... Well, aren't you being racist right there?

These two things combined make it seems like James really wants to use the N word and not be called a racist for it. From interviews and news that I've seen Paula Deen seems to understand the N-word to be " a bad black person" and used it as such. James either knew that and felt like defending it, or didn't care but wanted to rush to the defence of casual use of the N word amongst white people without any social stigma (being called a racist.

Nobody calls themselves racist, even most segregationists or white supremacists just talk about how they are proud to be white as opposed to disliking non-whites. I imagine (some of?) those people would be more offended at being labeled a racist than someone using the N- word but admittedly I've never seen a study to back that up.

Oh also bluemr2 saying that he doesn't take racism seriously, I took to be a blanket defence of all people accused of racism.

All I'm saying is that in a story that boils down to someone using the N word (with the assumed meaning of a classless or otherwise undesirable black person) some people will say "that's terrible people should not resort to attacking people or at least judging people based on their race" and then there are people who blame political correctness and rush to defend the person who used the word. That's what this entire thread is, isn't it?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 06:26:43 PM by wepner »

matchewed

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2013, 06:44:27 PM »
I interpret James' comments to be more about usage. I do not get any feeling of him wanting to use it in a manner which would be deemed racism. Just that the assumption that the usage of the word is racist. If I say the sentence "The word nigger can be a word which people will be offended by." That does not mean I am using it offensively or that I want to use it offensively.

mpbaker22

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2013, 08:19:01 PM »
In your case where are the institutions built which reflect that racism you've been a target of?

I tend to avoid the institutions that are built on racism, but it's easy to give you an example.  You won't get anywhere in government or a police department these days unless you're black.  Us white folk need not apply anymore.

Even better. The entire US federal government's demographic profile.

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/demographics/2006/table1-1.pdf

Still 71.6% white from '94 to '06.

The nation is 72.4% white, so technically white people are under-represented.

I believe the original post said white people aren't represented at all, which obviously isn't the case.  But I'm not sure he was referring to Congress, but rather positions that are achieved by promotion from a boss.

matchewed

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2013, 08:39:46 PM »
In your case where are the institutions built which reflect that racism you've been a target of?

I tend to avoid the institutions that are built on racism, but it's easy to give you an example.  You won't get anywhere in government or a police department these days unless you're black.  Us white folk need not apply anymore.

Even better. The entire US federal government's demographic profile.

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/data-analysis-documentation/federal-employment-reports/demographics/2006/table1-1.pdf

Still 71.6% white from '94 to '06.

The nation is 72.4% white, so technically white people are under-represented.

I believe the original post said white people aren't represented at all, which obviously isn't the case.  But I'm not sure he was referring to Congress, but rather positions that are achieved by promotion from a boss.

But the link above is the entire US federal government which includes positions achieved by promotion as well. So his point that white people can't get ahead is still shit.

Freedom2016

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #54 on: June 28, 2013, 09:04:01 PM »
I may not share her beliefs, but I like to see people stand up for their beliefs.  Going to court instead of settling has the unfortunate side-effect of making lawyers rich.  However, the settling of the '80s/'90s appears to be coming to an end.  During that time we learned that when everyone starts settling, people start taking advantage of that.  Lawsuit count goes up, dollar value skyrockets, all trying to find the edge where someone will/won't settle.  It's bad for the economy overall as it wastes resources.  We need more people that will stand up and fight lawsuits.  It may cost an individual more short term, but will save society (and possibly that individual) more over the long term.

I have a hard time taking racism seriously to being with though.  IMO, it's just a game being played to try and scam people.  As your typical middle-aged white guy, I've been a target for racism a number of times.  Apparently it's just fine for blacks to call whites racist things in this country.  I refuse to respond with racist return comments as I don't believe in defining people by the color of their skin.  However, it's become readily apparent that the so called victims oftentimes don't share my belief that all are equal.  I shed no tears for those groups when they go crying racism.  You need to stop it on your end first before you have any call to point the finger at others.

Yeah it's up to the people who are being discriminated against to solve racism within their own ranks before being expected to have equal treatment and rights amongst society. Like you might think NYPD's Stop and Frisk program is racist but it's not, because the non-white people being targeted need to clean up their racism first.
/sarcasm off

Look I may be too snarky for you on that one. I'm assuming by your words that you're talking racism in general, while you may be talking about casual interaction sort of racism and forgetting about all the institutionalized racism which is supported by that casual interaction sort of racism.

In your case where are the institutions built which reflect that racism you've been a target of?

This exchange reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

Spork

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #55 on: June 28, 2013, 09:08:18 PM »
I so agree with Spork, context is everything indeed.  I live in Richmond, and you still see the Confederate flag a lot in these parts.  Some from history buffs, some from rednecks.  The flag means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, especially blacks who for darned good reason don't look fondly on it at all.  A lot of whites hear still claim "heritage, not hate" in regards to the flag, but come on already.  That heritage is a very hurtful symbol to a lot of people.  It's tacky.

So we should all give up hurtful language & symbols?  Well, how about "nerd" and "geek"?  I might be hurt by those if a) I gave a damn; and b) I wasn't making way better money than most of the people using the words :-)  Symbols?  Well, how about all those Christian crosses and so on?  Not real pleasant reminders to us non-Christians.

Should we?  Absolutely!  Will we?  Doubtful.

Most black folk have a bit of a wound that needs to heal.  I get that.  Generations will fix that.

...and yeah, I'm a non-christian in a 99+% Christian area.  I get it.  Not great, but.. I choose to live here.  I could go somewhere that I am not constitutionally excluded from government.  I choose not to.  A couple of generations will probably fix that, too.  It's already better than it was 20 years ago.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2013, 09:15:30 PM »
Dave Chappelle "the chicken skit"

Just had to share this on point routine...

http://youtu.be/W8YAK8oMEKI

mpbaker22

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2013, 07:33:01 AM »
But the link above is the entire US federal government which includes positions achieved by promotion as well. So his point that white people can't get ahead is still shit.

I don't understand your point?  This is contradictory logic.  I don't even agree with what the guy you are responding to said, but you aren't disproving him at all.

It includes all positions including those by promotion, but it could be that all 72% of white people are in non-promoted positions and the minorities have the remaining 28%. 
Again, I think this is a ridiculous argument, but you haven't done anything to disprove it.

matchewed

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2013, 08:07:16 AM »
But the link above is the entire US federal government which includes positions achieved by promotion as well. So his point that white people can't get ahead is still shit.

I don't understand your point?  This is contradictory logic.  I don't even agree with what the guy you are responding to said, but you aren't disproving him at all.

It includes all positions including those by promotion, but it could be that all 72% of white people are in non-promoted positions and the minorities have the remaining 28%. 
Again, I think this is a ridiculous argument, but you haven't done anything to disprove it.

That's a fair point, the demographics do not show what the spread is between white promotions and non-white promotions. But your the one defining his statement of "getting somewhere" as promotions. I view it as having a job to begin with. All 100% are employed therefore white people have the same representation demographically speaking in the federal workforce and this concept of institutionalized reverse racism is a farce.

sol

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2013, 09:34:30 AM »
Speaking as a federal employee, I can assure you that minorities are woefully underrepresented in the upper levels of management.

Interestingly, women are strongly over-represented, though. At least in my agency.

Jamesqf

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2013, 11:58:53 AM »
Sorry but if you insult people based on their race its completely legitimate to call you a racist, even if it hurts your feelings.

There's an important point: if you are middle-aged or older, and grew up in certain parts of the country, the "N-word" was not an insult, simply a description, like using "towhead" to describe a person with light-colored hair.

As for my supposed desire to use the word, a) I have a better vocabulary than that; and b) to quote Archie Goodwin, "If I need to feel superior to someone, and I often do, I need a better reason than the color of his skin".
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 12:07:27 PM by Jamesqf »

wepner

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2013, 06:40:05 PM »
You are speaking in generalities though. This is a specific incident that you could get information about an make a more educated assessment on whether she was using it as an insult or not. Instead, you are making a point that is only tangentially related.

According to Paula Deen she only used the N-word to describe a black guy that robbed her (or a bank she was in?), when quoting someone else, and in racial jokes. She was also asked if she would describe these black waiters/waitresses at a party she went to using the N-word and she said no because they were classy and professional.

To me that information leads me to believe that she thinks of the word as an insult to black people, maybe others of you see it differently and thats fine, but we don't have to speak in super general terms about it.

http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2013/06/entertainment/deen-deposition/

Jamesqf

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2013, 11:18:51 PM »
You are speaking in generalities though. This is a specific incident that you could get information about...

I could, but the person involved is a celebrity of some sort, and as a matter of principle I prefer to know as little as possible about celebrities and their activities.  Further, this one incident does not affect me at all.  The general principles affect all of us.

footenote

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #63 on: June 30, 2013, 10:54:08 AM »
This just in:

Paula Dean has lost an estimated $12,500,000. in annual income from lost endorsements and partnerships due to information revealed in the pending hostile workplace lawsuit deposition.

She has been dropped by Food Network, Sears / KMart, WalMart, Target, QVC, J.C. Penney, Home Depot, Caesars Entertainment (four restaurants), Smithfield and Novo Nordisk (diabetes drug).

The person suing may indeed be "evil" and the suit may be completely without merit. Yes, the civil liability system in the U.S. may be broken.

But the lesson I take from this is: even if you are sued and you are not at fault (or perhaps fault is arguable), listen to your attorneys if they advise you settle out of court. $12.5mm annual income lost minus a (one-time) $1.2mm out-of-court settlement makes for your pride in being "in the right" quite expensive.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/deen-lost-12-5-million-experts-article-1.1385469

(And I now return the majority of recent commenters to your in-progress debates about affirmative action and language. ; )

Jamesqf

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2013, 03:41:53 PM »
But the lesson I take from this is: even if you are sued and you are not at fault (or perhaps fault is arguable), listen to your attorneys if they advise you settle out of court. $12.5mm annual income lost minus a (one-time) $1.2mm out-of-court settlement makes for your pride in being "in the right" quite expensive.

So?  Is money more important to you than principle?  "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."

Besides, I would imagine she has plenty of money left.  Isn't this the same logic that would keep people working at jobs they hate when they already have enough of a 'stash for a comfortable early retirement (or career change)? 

footenote

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2013, 04:12:20 PM »
But the lesson I take from this is: even if you are sued and you are not at fault (or perhaps fault is arguable), listen to your attorneys if they advise you settle out of court. $12.5mm annual income lost minus a (one-time) $1.2mm out-of-court settlement makes for your pride in being "in the right" quite expensive.

So?  Is money more important to you than principle?  "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
In this type of case - Yep. (Plus, my assessment is that she's guilty. She had an HR consulting firm in to assess Bubba's. They advised her there was significant risk of a discrimination lawsuit. She neglected to take action on their findings.)

wepner

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2013, 06:26:52 PM »
Isn't that the more important lesson then, don't be an asshole or something bad might happen to you?

footenote

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2013, 08:27:06 PM »
Isn't that the more important lesson then, don't be an asshole or something bad might happen to you?
In my experience, karma always catches up to you. "Don't be an asshole" are words to live by. (Esp in those moments we all have when you really, really feel like being an asshole.)

hybrid

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2013, 11:27:19 AM »
I so agree with Spork, context is everything indeed.  I live in Richmond, and you still see the Confederate flag a lot in these parts.  Some from history buffs, some from rednecks.  The flag means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, especially blacks who for darned good reason don't look fondly on it at all.  A lot of whites hear still claim "heritage, not hate" in regards to the flag, but come on already.  That heritage is a very hurtful symbol to a lot of people.  It's tacky.

So we should all give up hurtful language & symbols?  Well, how about "nerd" and "geek"?  I might be hurt by those if a) I gave a damn; and b) I wasn't making way better money than most of the people using the words :-)  Symbols?  Well, how about all those Christian crosses and so on?  Not real pleasant reminders to us non-Christians.

Well yes, if every word were equal and context didn't matter, I could certainly go along with that.  Meanwhile, I'm stuck in a world where context matters and all words don't carry the same freight, so I have to evaluate everything on its individual merits.

sonofczar

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2013, 08:13:20 AM »
In your case where are the institutions built which reflect that racism you've been a target of?
http://www.umich.edu/

I'm from Canada where the people primarily complaining of racism are Aboriginals.  The government's counter to this?  Be racist against white people.  I work for the government and it isn't unusual to see job postings that say "this opening is for people of aboriginal descent".  Combatting racism with racism just makes things worse.  Apparently it is only politically correct to be racist against certain groups.  Ridiculous.  If I ran a business and said in the ad "only white people need apply", I would be raked over the coals and make headlines in the news!

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2013, 08:25:13 AM »
You don't think that there's any social value of affirmative action? Do you object to scholarships for underrepresented groups, like women in engineering?

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2013, 09:00:28 AM »
^I strongly favor affirmative action.

Just for the record, have any of you read the complaint filed against her?  Because you know those companies all had someone on their legal staff read it, and they all dropped in a landslide that said "holy moly get us out of here!"

For example, the complaint was filed by a white female employee.  Interesting factoid about the case.  Here are some more:

"Black staff had to use the back entrance to enter and leave restaurant.

Black staff could only use one bathroom.

Black staff couldn’t work the front of the restaurants."

The number of slurs by her staff/managers/family is astounding as well.  This isn't about her slipping in the "N-word" once 20 years ago.
http://www.atlawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Jackson-v.-Deen-et-al.-Complaint.pdf

Spork

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2013, 09:34:34 AM »
^I strongly favor affirmative action.

Just for the record, have any of you read the complaint filed against her?  Because you know those companies all had someone on their legal staff read it, and they all dropped in a landslide that said "holy moly get us out of here!"

For example, the complaint was filed by a white female employee.  Interesting factoid about the case.  Here are some more:

"Black staff had to use the back entrance to enter and leave restaurant.

Black staff could only use one bathroom.

Black staff couldn’t work the front of the restaurants."

The number of slurs by her staff/managers/family is astounding as well.  This isn't about her slipping in the "N-word" once 20 years ago.
http://www.atlawblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Jackson-v.-Deen-et-al.-Complaint.pdf

Thank you.  I guess I could have googled for that, but ... it's the first thing that actually provides any further context.

I am not a lawyer.  And I am only reading between the lines.  I know this is the "she said" part of a story that has 2 sides, but my take on this is:
1. Bubba is a piece of work.  There ain't no hope for Bubba.
2. Paula feels some "family obligation" for Bubba, but should have cut him off at the knees a long time ago
3. Paula has some folks around her running the business that also need to be cut off at the knees.  (They may be nice people and good friends, but they're not good for her business.)
4. I'm just not overly convinced that she's a terrible awful racist from this.  It's possible.  But her main problem in all of this is "she let this shit go on way too long."  As a multi-million dollar business -- yeah.  There are some serious liabilities floating around.
5. Had I been Jackson (the complainant), I would have walked out of that cesspool a long time ago.  Yeah, maybe the story here is colored by her and isn't 100% true... maybe she's over reacting.  But... I doubt it.   I'm pretty sure about #1 above

mpbaker22

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2013, 11:05:05 AM »
You don't think that there's any social value of affirmative action? Do you object to scholarships for underrepresented groups, like women in engineering?

No, why should scholarships exist just because someone is female or black, or white for that matter?  Scholarships should exist for poor people, or people who have gone through certain life experiences, but not based on gender or race.  That is racism or sexism, in itself.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2013, 11:28:15 AM »
You don't think that there's any social value of affirmative action? Do you object to scholarships for underrepresented groups, like women in engineering?

I think you first have to ask why the group is underrepresented.  Is there any systematic bias that excludes the group, or - as with your example - is it just that relatively few women actually want to be engineers?

I'd also like someone to explain why there shouldn't be affirmative action in say the NBA (where less than a quarter of the players are white), or college sports.

smalllife

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2013, 11:32:35 AM »
You don't think that there's any social value of affirmative action? Do you object to scholarships for underrepresented groups, like women in engineering?

I think you first have to ask why the group is underrepresented.  Is there any systematic bias that excludes the group, or - as with your example - is it just that relatively few women actually want to be engineers?

Do women just not want to be engineers or is there a systematic bias from a very young age that math and science are for boys, which then translates into under-representation in advanced math and science classes, from which follows low numbers in engineering? 

http://dujs.dartmouth.edu/news/debunking-the-myth-sex-differences-in-math-performance#.UdRgDvmgUW4

grantmeaname

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2013, 12:37:05 PM »
No, why should scholarships exist just because someone is female or black, or white for that matter?  Scholarships should exist for poor people, or people who have gone through certain life experiences, but not based on gender or race.  That is racism or sexism, in itself.
I sympathize with this view but I also wrestle with its idealism. I think that it totally ignores the higher barriers in place for members of certain demographics based on those demographics themselves, even though I agree with the sentiment behind it.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2013, 12:43:20 PM »
I'd also like someone to explain why there shouldn't be affirmative action in say the NBA (where less than a quarter of the players are white), or college sports.

Physical characteristics versus intellectual.

The idea behind affirmative action is that diversity of thought is desired.  Affirmative action for athletics doesn't promote that; it would be pointless.

It does among coaching, which is why the NFL has affirmative action rules around interviewing minority coaches when shopping for a new coach.
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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2013, 02:59:06 PM »
I'd also like someone to explain why there shouldn't be affirmative action in say the NBA (where less than a quarter of the players are white), or college sports.

Physical characteristics versus intellectual.

The idea behind affirmative action is that diversity of thought is desired.  Affirmative action for athletics doesn't promote that; it would be pointless.

It does among coaching, which is why the NFL has affirmative action rules around interviewing minority coaches when shopping for a new coach.

Sports are one of the very few places where a pure meritocracy exists (in regards to the athletes).  It may be true that there is not even one white person starting at DB in the NFL, but that is only because there is not one white person qualified to start at DB in the NFL.  It's a completely different discussion as to why there are so many blacks in the NBA and NFL and so few in MLB and the PGA.  But that discussion has nothing to do with talent.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2013, 05:50:17 PM »
The idea behind affirmative action is that diversity of thought is desired.

Given the premise, why would diversity of thought depend on race?  I had a lot more in common with the (black) lab director at my last job, the (black) dreadlocked young co-worker with a physics PhD, or the cute young (black) receptionist who liked chatting about gardens & dogs, than I do with say white Wall Street bankers, conservative Christians, liberal "artistic" types, SUV drivers...

grantmeaname

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2013, 06:09:12 PM »
Given the premise, why would diversity of thought depend on race?
It's not that it depends on race, it's that a racially diverse group, ceteris paribus, has more diversity of background and experience than a racially homogeneous one.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2013, 06:10:17 PM »
The idea behind affirmative action is that diversity of thought is desired.

Given the premise, why would diversity of thought depend on race?  I had a lot more in common with the (black) lab director at my last job, the (black) dreadlocked young co-worker with a physics PhD, or the cute young (black) receptionist who liked chatting about gardens & dogs, than I do with say white Wall Street bankers, conservative Christians, liberal "artistic" types, SUV drivers...

It doesn't.

I have ZERO issues with promoting "your folk".  In other words: if you're a wealthy black liberal Christian lesbian with a 180 IQ that is in a wheel chair that has been through a shitload of adversity and made it big -- I get that you might want to help folks like you.  Totally cool with it. 

But when it comes from a government that is supposedly blind to race/color/sex/religion/sexual orientation/physical abilities/golf handicap/number of toes/hair color/tattoo placement/etc...  it irks me a bit.  If you want to be blind to it: be blind to it.

grantmeaname

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2013, 06:17:38 PM »
But when it comes from a government that is supposedly blind to race/color/sex/religion/sexual orientation/physical abilities/golf handicap/number of toes/hair color/tattoo placement/etc...  it irks me a bit.  If you want to be blind to it: be blind to it.
I don't follow this. What two parts of the government specifically are you referring to? A tension between federal hiring practices and the admissions practices of independent universities? Federal hiring practices and the rulings of the judiciary?

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2013, 06:27:43 PM »
Given the premise, why would diversity of thought depend on race?
It's not that it depends on race, it's that a racially diverse group, ceteris paribus, has more diversity of background and experience than a racially homogeneous one.

This.  And it's clearly not just race, there is gender AA as well. 

It's for disadvantaged minorities, under the theory that they may not be able to (fill in the blank.. Get accepted to a college, job, whatever) because of that disadvantage, but that their inclusion would help the group through diversity.

You may have more in common with someone with dreadlocks, but if they aren't disadvantaged then those dreadlocked people should be able to get in on their own merits.  And they might be picked due to that diversity as a deciding factor.

I'm not saying I agree with AA, but I understand the premise.  Maybe not enough to explain it, apparently?
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Spork

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2013, 06:28:56 PM »
But when it comes from a government that is supposedly blind to race/color/sex/religion/sexual orientation/physical abilities/golf handicap/number of toes/hair color/tattoo placement/etc...  it irks me a bit.  If you want to be blind to it: be blind to it.
I don't follow this. What two parts of the government specifically are you referring to? A tension between federal hiring practices and the admissions practices of independent universities? Federal hiring practices and the rulings of the judiciary?

I am not referring to two of anything.  I am referring to affirmative action policies of any make/model.   

grantmeaname

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2013, 06:56:04 PM »
Which part of the government is "supposedly blind" - acting as if it's race neutral - and which part of the government plays favorites by race?

Spork

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2013, 07:00:53 PM »
Which part of the government is "supposedly blind" - acting as if it's race neutral - and which part of the government plays favorites by race?
What part is supposedly blind: ALL OF IT!

What part plays favorites: any part that abides by a law that picks one person over another

grantmeaname

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2013, 07:15:13 PM »
That really deepened my understanding of your position. Thanks for the additional detail.

Spork

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2013, 07:49:06 PM »
That really deepened my understanding of your position. Thanks for the additional detail.

I'm sorry.  I wasn't really trying to be snarky. 

Generalities are sometimes really good things.

Government is absolutely supposed to be blind to the composition of its citizens.  Assuming we're talking about the USA here, but that's the design.  That is what a republic is about.  Did they totally fuck it up by designing it for "all individuals are equal" and then putting "yeah, except for women and blacks"?  Um, yeah.  Totally. Get that shit out of there.  It's a total screwup.

What part of the current government plays favorites?  Well, the answer is again "all of it."  Do we need examples?
executive: Well AA started with JFK's executive order, so... there's one.
legislative: well, the civil rights act contained the origins, so ... there's one
judiciary: any lawsuit based on executive or legislative.

Assuming (for the moment) we're talking about racism...  Racism is stupid.  And you just cannot outlaw stupidity.  It doesn't work.  Some bubba (as in the OT, he was named Bubba) is going to practice it.  No law will get rid of that.

But you know what is special about racism?  It's distinctly unprofitable.  The original topic here is the epitome of this.  Bubba was a stupid ass.  People made it public and Paula Deen's entire house of cards has tumbled down on her head.  She had the power to fix this and passed it up like a dumbass.  There has been no governmental judgment here yet... and ... yet it's fixed itself.

Would it have fixed itself in 1960?  Doubtful.  But I am unconvinced that AA fixed that.  I'm pretty sure it was time.... and quite possibly AA made it worse by giving the Bubba's of the world a reason to say "see, the gubment is messing with me."  No, the world just doesn't want you acting like a fool, Bubba.

Does that give you understanding?  I'm not trying to be an asshole here...  I thought I was being clear... I guess I wasn't.  I hope that makes it clearer.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2013, 08:01:38 PM »
That really deepened my understanding of your position. Thanks for the additional detail.
Government is absolutely supposed to be blind to the composition of its citizens.  Assuming we're talking about the USA here, but that's the design.  That is what a republic is about.  Did they totally fuck it up by designing it for "all individuals are equal" and then putting "yeah, except for women and blacks"?  Um, yeah.  Totally. Get that shit out of there.  It's a total screwup.

What part of the current government plays favorites?  Well, the answer is again "all of it."  Do we need examples?
executive: Well AA started with JFK's executive order, so... there's one.
legislative: well, the civil rights act contained the origins, so ... there's one
judiciary: any lawsuit based on executive or legislative.

Assuming (for the moment) we're talking about racism...  Racism is stupid.  And you just cannot outlaw stupidity.  It doesn't work.  Some bubba (as in the OT, he was named Bubba) is going to practice it.  No law will get rid of that.

But you know what is special about racism?  It's distinctly unprofitable.  The original topic here is the epitome of this.  Bubba was a stupid ass.  People made it public and Paula Deen's entire house of cards has tumbled down on her head.  She had the power to fix this and passed it up like a dumbass.  There has been no governmental judgment here yet... and ... yet it's fixed itself.

Would it have fixed itself in 1960?  Doubtful.  But I am unconvinced that AA fixed that.  I'm pretty sure it was time.... and quite possibly AA made it worse by giving the Bubba's of the world a reason to say "see, the gubment is messing with me."  No, the world just doesn't want you acting like a fool, Bubba.

Does that give you understanding?  I'm not trying to be an asshole here...  I thought I was being clear... I guess I wasn't.  I hope that makes it clearer.
LMAO. Thank you, Spork, this is why I posted the topic in the first place. "No, the world just doesn't want you acting like a fool, Bubba." And Paula has f**ked away more than $10mm/yr income to support Bubba's fool behavior.

grantmeaname

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2013, 09:18:41 PM »
Does that give you understanding?  I'm not trying to be an asshole here...  I thought I was being clear... I guess I wasn't.  I hope that makes it clearer.
Yes, a much better idea what you were getting at, thanks.

Quote
Government is absolutely supposed to be blind to the composition of its citizens. Assuming we're talking about the USA here, but that's the design.  That is what a republic is about.
But can you see how dogmatic "race blindness", which you think is suggested by the Declaration of Independence, could conflict with things like "promot[ing] the general welfare", a founding goal of that nation's constitution? There are iniquities that people bear as a result of their race, gender, and sexual orientation, and to me it's totally clear that the government has to strike some balance between trying to correct those iniquities and treating all its citizens fairly. You can't just say "this is the half of the balance that I care about more, so it's the only part that matters" - there's social value in both sides. It's not a hypocritical duality between favoritism and race blindness, the way I see it, it's the government trying to balance two separate aspects of the public interest.

Quote
Did they totally fuck it up by designing it for "all individuals are equal" and then putting "yeah, except for women and blacks"?  Um, yeah.  Totally. Get that shit out of there.  It's a total screwup.
They didn't say all individuals were equal; that's an interpretation that has come along later. And don't say it's a fundamental of democracy - even Athenian democracy excluded many from voting. The declaration's signers said all men were created equal, and there's a reasonable argument to be made that they meant all white property-owning men, based on who had the franchise.

Quote
But you know what is special about racism?  It's distinctly unprofitable.
Sometimes. Sometimes not, and I don't buy that all profitable injustice clears itself up given enough time. And what about other potentially profitable forms of discrimination, like against the disabled?

Jamesqf

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2013, 12:45:13 AM »
It's not that it depends on race, it's that a racially diverse group, ceteris paribus, has more diversity of background and experience than a racially homogeneous one.

Wrong.  It's quite easy to form a group - college freshmen, say - with as large a diversity of background, or larger, by including only white folks, as it is by taking out a X percent of the whites and replacing them with black people, simply because "black culture" is very narrowly stereotyped.  (Not that I'm saying that all black people subscribe to black culture, you understand.) 

Did they totally fuck it up by designing it for "all individuals are equal"...

Except that they didn't design that.  They said that all men are created equal, not that they forever stay that way.  They also aimed at equality of rights, not equality of condition.

grantmeaname

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2013, 06:00:20 AM »
Wrong.  It's quite easy to form a group - college freshmen, say - with as large a diversity of background, or larger, by including only white folks, as it is by taking out a X percent of the whites and replacing them with black people, simply because "black culture" is very narrowly stereotyped.  (Not that I'm saying that all black people subscribe to black culture, you understand.)
So you understand the logic perfectly, but you disagree, so you're making a charade of not understanding. I'll keep that in mind next time.

Dr.Vibrissae

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2013, 07:28:00 AM »

I think you first have to ask why the group is underrepresented.


I think this is an excellent point.  I really do believe that race and gender have little to do with distribution of aptitude.  So with absence of societal and socioeconomic dissimilarities, it seems that approximately proportionate numbers would end up in most fields, in which case, any time there is an unequal distribution we can assume there is some pressure/barrier to equal representation.  And I do not mean to imply that those pressure may not be relatively benign, i.e. cultural preference for Medicine over Banking or some such or that they are directly related to individual, overt racism.  I do think it's important to really examine our overt biases.

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So Is there any systematic bias that excludes the group

A very pertinent question.  I wonder if I can find evidence of a systematic/societal bias against women in engineering?

Quote
or - as with your example - is it just that relatively few women actually want to be engineers?

Oh Snap!  That didn't take long.  You started off so well, and then rather than following through jumped to imply that the reason that women aren't in engineering is that they don't like it (I'm going to extend this to math and physical science in general).  I see your argument as this:

Grantmeaname: Women are under-represented in engineering.

JamesQF: We need to ask why groups are underrepresented.  In your example women are under-represented, because all the women who would like being engineers are already engineers.

Ok, maybe I'm being a smartass, but I hope you can appreciate how the second half of your statement sounds like a ridiculous, and superficial assessment of why women may be under-represented in engineering.  I'll offer my own family as a counterpoint.  I come from a family of engineers, including three uncles and three aunts who are engineers, and a grandfather who was in engineering.  They all think it is a great field, that you can do a lot with an engineering degree.  Half of my female cousins now have or are earning an engineering degree.  Additionally, of the women I know whose mother's had engineering degrees, half of them pursued engineering.  I would argue that when raised in an environment where engineering is considered a viable and valuable degree for women, just as many would pursue those kinds of degrees.

As for scholarships aimed at minorities and women.  I think they're a good stop-gap measure for treating the symptom by offering financial incentive to under-represented groups.  Obviously they don't completely address the underlyingfactors, although they do create more role models within a field. I don't think of them as affirmative action, because they are not usually systemic offerings, but rather supported by outside groups/individuals who want to encourage certain groups to enter higher education or certain fields. 

jrhampt

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2013, 02:39:13 PM »
I fully support AA.  Clearly there are some white males in this thread with a persecution complex who live in a totally different reality from the rest of us, but I find it refreshing that others such as grantmeaname are handling the situation.

I will just leave this Colbert clip as I find it amusing:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/420902/november-07-2012/nontraditional-non-white-america

Jamesqf

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2013, 06:17:47 PM »
I really do believe that race and gender have little to do with distribution of aptitude.

So why is the NBA >75% black?

Quote
in which case, any time there is an unequal distribution we can assume there is some pressure/barrier to equal representation.  And I do not mean to imply that those pressure may not be relatively benign, i.e. cultural preference for Medicine over Banking or some such or that they are directly related to individual, overt racism.  I do think it's important to really examine our overt biases.

Certainly.  In the case of racial disparities in both the NBA and STEM fields, the racial bias comes almost entirely from urban black culture, in which basketball is seen as "cool" and a path to success, but trying for any sort of academic achievement (even speaking mainstream English) is seen as "acting white". 

Even putting aside the question of whether it's right for other parts of society to bear the burden of correcting a problem they didn't cause, you right there have the reason why AA doesn't work.  Those who manage to escape the "black culture" brainwashing would do just fine without it; those who buy into it will fail despite everything AA can do.

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I wonder if I can find evidence of a systematic/societal bias against women in engineering?

I would very much doubt that you can find any actual bias from say high school/college entrance onwards.  There's probably still a lot of childhood socialization (little girls are supposed to play with dolls, no?), but it's hard to tell whether that's innate or imposed by societal conditioning.

Quote
Oh Snap!  That didn't take long.  You started off so well, and then rather than following through jumped to imply that the reason that women aren't in engineering is that they don't like it (I'm going to extend this to math and physical science in general).

Yes, that's exactly my argument.  How many girls do you see doing the sorts of things that would lead to an interest in engineering?  Stuff like taking things apart, fixing bikes & cars messing with electricity & electronics, programming their computers...  I'll bet the number is a small fraction of the number of boys who do these things.  The girls who like doing these things can grow up, go to school, and become engineers & scientists if they like (or perhaps heavy equipment mechanics, like a former neighbor of mine).  They'll likely find themselves more welcome in the field than the average male.

On the flip side here, how about guys who want to go into traditionally female fields like nursing, cooking, or being a secretary/"personal assistant"?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 06:22:34 PM by Jamesqf »

englyn

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2013, 08:05:16 PM »
Yes, there does seem to be a systemic bias against women going into engineering: purely that few girls seem to think of it as a valuable and desirable course of study.
Even when girls are very well represented among the highest mathematical ability not as many of them choose to continue studying maths and hard sciences in senior high school. Probably, due to the existing under-representation of women in engineering, it doesn't occur to them as a worthwhile career to do all that work for (in contrast to law, for example).
Exactly, it is social conditioning, but it's a bias that starts from an early age that this Just Isn't Something Girls Do. Dr Vibrissae has the perfect example of what happens when a girl's environment doesn't have that bias. As to the much better gender representations of women in engineering in India, China and some parts of Europe.

While it helps to have a tinkering sort of nature to have an interest in engineering, it's by no means necessary. Most people in any field of work don't continue doing work-like activities at home. Anyway, you could point to a whole bunch of not quite as obvious relevant interests girls may enjoy at various ages: jigsaw puzzles; playing lego; orienteering; logic puzzles and puzzle-solving computer games; building sandcastles, dams, cubby houses...

Once actually in the field, yes, personally I've found it welcoming. I hear the odd horror story but would suspect that most working environments now are generally positive towards women.
However, engineering has a lousy retention rate for women after a decade or so because it is not all that supportive of taking time out to raise a family; because it doesn't have to deal with this issue all the time.

ALL of these issues would be improved by increasing the proportion of women engineers from around 8% to a critical mass of around 30%. If we can tempt a few more girls into it with scholarships to improve the ratio and the diversity and stop so many girls missing out on a FLIPPING AWESOME line of work, my response = hell yeah.

And I'm completely supportive of equivalent scholarships for men going into nursing or teaching. I don't think they're underrepresented among chefs and I don't think administration work innately needs more balance, though I'm happy to be wrong in either of these.

</soapbox>

Zamboni

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2013, 09:42:14 PM »
Quote
Quote
I wonder if I can find evidence of a systematic/societal bias against women in engineering?

I would very much doubt that you can find any actual bias from say high school/college entrance onwards.  There's probably still a lot of childhood socialization (little girls are supposed to play with dolls, no?), but it's hard to tell whether that's innate or imposed by societal conditioning.

Um, have you been in college-level engineering classes?  Upper level college physics classes?  My experience with this is that both are very hostile environments towards women.  If a young lady is truly outstanding in these areas, then there's a good chance she will be even more reviled, isolated, ignored, not mentored, discouraged.  If you read the literature on college women in these fields, the word that comes up over and over and over is "discouraged."  Yes, I was actively discouraged.  Many times, sometimes bluntly, sometimes obliquely.  Many faculty made it clear that I was not welcome.  And this wasn't very long ago.

My current employer has zero female faculty in two of the engineering departments.  Zero.  In 2013.  How can the administration wonder that the undergraduate women are choosing other fields for majors in this case?

But we're getting pretty far afield here.

Paula Deen's products are now a liability for stores.  What should they do with these things?  I vote for donating them to thrift shops and food pantries.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #98 on: July 05, 2013, 05:41:20 AM »
Zamboni - I expect Paula's hardcore fan base will loyally buy all the remaining stock. Weirdly, her book was a top seller after the kerfuffle broke, and then the publisher dropped her. So it will be a tad "Alice in Wonderland" for her in the short term. But with an estimated $12m+ in annual revenue gone, it will be a shrunken fanbase and a orders-of-magnitude smaller income in the long run. (Unless, as we discussed above, she pulls a Martha Stewart and revamps her image.)

P.S. Hang in there. I remember looking at Help Wanted (divided by Male and Female!) and thinking "Nursing, teaching, clerical, home maker. Those are my only options? Really?" I went on to have a kickass career in F500 financial services operations. Times change - just more slowly than we would like sometimes.

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Re: Cutting your nose off to spite your... net worth?
« Reply #99 on: July 05, 2013, 08:45:51 AM »
For those who have not yet read the complaint (link posted above) I suggest you do so before posting further.   Deen's issues are SO much worse than just using an epithet once or twice.

The plaintiff was General Manager of Uncle Bubba's restaurant (one of several owned by Deen's corporate conglomerate) for five years and during that time she tried hard to shield her employees from Bubba Hiers (Deen's brother) behavior.  Not only the employees but also Jackson (the plaintiff) were subjected to:

  • comments about waitresses' physical appearance and their potential sexual behavior
    porn, viewed by Bubba on his computer in the small office shared with Jackson
    Bubba's request to Jackson that she give him pictures of herself from when she was younger
    repeated comments that she was a "woman in a man's job"
    significant pay disparity between Jackson and the male general managers; when she asked for a raise she was refused because #1, she was female and #2 Bubba would be angry if he knew how much she made already, and #3 it might reduce Bubba's ability to skim money from the receipts.
    During a dinner for food rep vendors, Bubba (drunk and disorderly) physically grabbed Jackson, twice, and kissed her.
    comments from Deen's son that he wanted to fire all the "monkeys" in the kitchen
    comments from senior corporate leaders, in response to Jackson's internal complaints, that this is how it is and some people were never going to advance because of who they are
    Bubba once physically grabbed an older black employee and shook him while yelling epithets.  When informed of this, senior corporate leaders decided the solution as to invite the victim to Deen's fancy mansion so he'd feel special for a while.
    Deen's corporate counsel repeatedly called Jackson to discuss these problems.  Counsel and Jackson worked together on a human resources manual that the corporation was going to adopt to try and put a stop to the bad behavior.   Several drafts were written and it was never adopted.

Deen was present in several meetings where these chronic problems were addressed.  Deen and senior leadership at the corporation knew that these problems existed and not only did the do NOTHING to address them but they perpetuated the behavior with their own comments.

I'm not at all surprised that Deen's corporate sponsors have dropped her like a radioactive potato.  If even 10% of what Jackson (a middle-aged white woman) claims is true then Deen herself is a pretty nasty piece of work and she also knew of and sanctioned abusive behavior from her senior employees toward her junior employees.    The trial should be fascinating (unless Deen gets smart and settles).