Author Topic: Crowdfunding IVF  (Read 9953 times)

dude

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Crowdfunding IVF
« on: October 20, 2016, 06:13:38 AM »
I know this topic touches nerves with some folks, but damn, begging for money to reproduce just seems to cross a line, IMHO.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-20/how-to-pay-for-that-baby-crowdfund-it

jinga nation

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 06:46:34 AM »
This one touched my nerves a year or so back.

Software engineer, let's call him WannabeDaddy, making easy $85k or more. Wife works a good job. They open a GoFundMe.

He's assigned to work with me on a project. I come to find out that the 'custom' deployment scripts his team uses can be easily generated on a website. Smart chap, tell the Guvvie Supervisors that you write custom software. Wow! I told me team about this site, and we no longer need the software teams help.

Anyways, back to the story, one of my money-savvy fellow engineers tells me about WannabeDaddy's GFM. I said it's funny that he doesn't have money for IVF but he's constantly talking to my boss (they are somehow related) about eating 5 lb. bags of candy, drinking lots of rum, bourbon, and wine that they buy by the case. And trips to theme parks.

Lay off the booze, exercise, and Go Fornicate More.

What irked me was not that they opened a GFM. He had the gall to send an email about his GFM on a military email system. To over 2000 users, at least. The repercussion: Delete all group mailing lists.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 06:48:43 AM by jinga nation »

onlykelsey

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2016, 07:10:51 AM »
Ugh.  I feel awful for folks who need IVF, but it does seem to cross a line.

I had a friend/acquaintance from high school who struggled with fertility, and then crowdfunded their first adoption.  I sort of got it, they were religious and had built their lives on the assumption that they'd have their first kid at 22-23, when no one thinks they'll have fertility problems.  Life threw them a bit of a curveball, and domestic adoption of kids out of foster care isn't wildly expensive.  To me crowdfunding is appropriate for situations where life throws you something totally unexpected that, realistically, you couldn't have been expected to prepare for.

But two years later they led another crowdfunding campaign for the second kid, which really rubbed me the wrong way.  Like... you are both able-bodied young people with middle class families, and you knew you wanted to adopt, and you didn't set aside any money over the last few years?  What happens when the kid needs 5K worth of emergency medical care or something?

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 07:55:52 AM »
Ugh.  I feel awful for folks who need IVF, but it does seem to cross a line.

I had a friend/acquaintance from high school who struggled with fertility, and then crowdfunded their first adoption.  I sort of got it, they were religious and had built their lives on the assumption that they'd have their first kid at 22-23, when no one thinks they'll have fertility problems.  Life threw them a bit of a curveball, and domestic adoption of kids out of foster care isn't wildly expensive.  To me crowdfunding is appropriate for situations where life throws you something totally unexpected that, realistically, you couldn't have been expected to prepare for.

But two years later they led another crowdfunding campaign for the second kid, which really rubbed me the wrong way.  Like... you are both able-bodied young people with middle class families, and you knew you wanted to adopt, and you didn't set aside any money over the last few years?  What happens when the kid needs 5K worth of emergency medical care or something?

Adopting a kid out of foster care isn't wildly expensive, until you're the one who has to pay for all the extra medical and psychiatric care necessary for chronic problems that occurred due to lack of care earlier in life. Add in costs of replacement belongings for things that get deliberately broken or trashed, and the cost of full-time supervision for someone who has been allowed to grow up without even the most rudimentary self care or social skills. There can even be legal fees due to the child's conduct. Expect massive amounts of time off work to deal with all the appointments and interruptions.

onlykelsey

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2016, 08:00:16 AM »
Ugh.  I feel awful for folks who need IVF, but it does seem to cross a line.

I had a friend/acquaintance from high school who struggled with fertility, and then crowdfunded their first adoption.  I sort of got it, they were religious and had built their lives on the assumption that they'd have their first kid at 22-23, when no one thinks they'll have fertility problems.  Life threw them a bit of a curveball, and domestic adoption of kids out of foster care isn't wildly expensive.  To me crowdfunding is appropriate for situations where life throws you something totally unexpected that, realistically, you couldn't have been expected to prepare for.

But two years later they led another crowdfunding campaign for the second kid, which really rubbed me the wrong way.  Like... you are both able-bodied young people with middle class families, and you knew you wanted to adopt, and you didn't set aside any money over the last few years?  What happens when the kid needs 5K worth of emergency medical care or something?

Adopting a kid out of foster care isn't wildly expensive, until you're the one who has to pay for all the extra medical and psychiatric care necessary for chronic problems that occurred due to lack of care earlier in life. Add in costs of replacement belongings for things that get deliberately broken or trashed, and the cost of full-time supervision for someone who has been allowed to grow up without even the most rudimentary self care or social skills. There can even be legal fees due to the child's conduct. Expect massive amounts of time off work to deal with all the appointments and interruptions.

I actually just came back to edit my post, because they're not adopting out of foster care, they are adopting American-born newborns at <2 weeks old.  I'm not sure why I wrote that.

I was actually IN the foster care system (only the tail end of teenagedom) and agree that that is an entirely different system.  My last boss had recently adopted a 9 year old after fostering her for two years and routinely had to go home because she had, for example, lit the lawn on fire with gasoline.  Hard work.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2016, 08:01:54 AM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?

But yeah. Zero sympathy from me. None of this stuff should be covered by insurance.

acroy

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2016, 08:21:57 AM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?


Yes actually this is a very interesting side effect of 'modern medicine': people whom Mother Nature keeps trying to kill off, are instead reproducing. It is no longer Survival of the Fittest. The genes are/will continue to get 'worse'.

This is true in my own case; nasty asthma, allergies as a kid. By rules of the jungle, I was the weak runt of the littler and should have been eaten or drowned. But here I am procreating.

Mother Nature has tried to kill off DW several times: appendectomy, complicated pregnancies, etc.

Not a fan of IVF. If you cant' conceive, it's not meant to be. Adopt! there's tens of thousands of kids who need a good home.

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2016, 09:15:26 AM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?


Yes actually this is a very interesting side effect of 'modern medicine': people whom Mother Nature keeps trying to kill off, are instead reproducing. It is no longer Survival of the Fittest. The genes are/will continue to get 'worse'.

This is true in my own case; nasty asthma, allergies as a kid. By rules of the jungle, I was the weak runt of the littler and should have been eaten or drowned. But here I am procreating.

Mother Nature has tried to kill off DW several times: appendectomy, complicated pregnancies, etc.

Not a fan of IVF. If you cant' conceive, it's not meant to be. Adopt! there's tens of thousands of kids who need a good home.

The present foster care system does its absolute best to keep kids from being adopted. They try to "reunite" extremely destructive and dysfunctional families, to the detriment of the children, because bio-parental entitlement is that heavily supported by law. It doesn't matter how abusive a parent is: they're entitled to get their kids back over and over again, and some of them can jerk foster parents around for years before having their rights terminated.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 10:03:06 AM »
Not a fan of IVF. If you cant' conceive, it's not meant to be. Adopt! there's tens of thousands of kids who need a good home.

But MY GENETICS~!  Crowdfunding for this does seem in bad taste.  In the future I may have to take a $40,000 loan or more for IVF if things don't work out.  One reason I'm not stocking cash now is I could still get a baby au natural.  My wife doesn't seem to like it when I say I can buy either a BMW or a baby.

If you can't imagine dropping a car's worth of money on this how are you gonna drop a college education's worth of tuition in a couple decades?  Or daycare costs in a couple years?  If IVF financing is more than a moderate inconvenience than perhaps it is not for you.  Outside fundraising should be limiting to prospective grandparents.

mm1970

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 10:43:44 AM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?


Yes actually this is a very interesting side effect of 'modern medicine': people whom Mother Nature keeps trying to kill off, are instead reproducing. It is no longer Survival of the Fittest. The genes are/will continue to get 'worse'.

This is true in my own case; nasty asthma, allergies as a kid. By rules of the jungle, I was the weak runt of the littler and should have been eaten or drowned. But here I am procreating.

Mother Nature has tried to kill off DW several times: appendectomy, complicated pregnancies, etc.

Not a fan of IVF. If you cant' conceive, it's not meant to be. Adopt! there's tens of thousands of kids who need a good home.
I'm going to argue against this.  I'm pretty much a fan of science, and I'm not religious, so there you are.

Some people need a little help, for whatever reason. Scarring in the fallopian tubes, older eggs because you didn't meet  your SO until you were 38.  (Doesn't mean there aren't good eggs, just that it could take a lot of years of ovulation to find them), slow swimmers.  It's kind of a crap shoot, so why not help it along if you can.  (There are other situations where I might not be warranted, I agree.)

However with adoptions, I have to go along with TheGrimSqueaker.  I only have info about adoption from "slightly outside" the circle. I have friends who have adopted from foster care, and have also fostered other children.  I have "internet friends" who have adopted from foster care.  I've done a little research on adopting older children myself.

- The foster care system really wants to keep families together.  They wait *far* too long, in many cases, to remove children from dysfunctional families.  My local friends used to wonder if they were "taking a child away from a family" until they got into the system and realized HOW BAD it has to get before children are removed.  And by then, they've gone through a LOT. And they have lifelong issues. 

That's not to say that these children do not deserve families, but honestly it takes a SPECIAL family to be able to handle that.  I'd imagine that a couple that never has had children would have a very difficult time adjusting, and my not be able to adjust at all.

- Even just looking at adoption options, many, if not most children up for adoptions come up as singles or groups of kids and say "this child/ these children would do best in a family where they are the *only* child or the youngest by at least 10 years".

- Some children will never overcome their disabilities from being born addicted, or from being ignored as babies, and some will always be mentally 5 years old, or 10 years old.  To adopt them is to be willing to handle that, forever.  From the start.  And be willing to handle their medical care too, which can be substantial - especially if they are required to live in a home.

That's not to say that "things don't happen" when you have a biological baby.  They can.  In those cases, you are starting from scratch.  You aren't starting with a 9 year old who sets the lawn on fire.

Pigeon

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 11:38:59 AM »
Adoptive parent here.  I find this GFM ridiculous, just as I find 95% of them to be ridiculous.  But there is a lot of misunderstanding around adoption out there.  Whenever I see the "oh, they could just adopt!" reaction, I want to cringe.

We declined to do IVF.  There would have been a lot of out of pocket costs and it is very expensive and not covered by many insurance plans.  We didn't do it because for us, it didn't feel right.  Many people do it and more power to them, but not our cup of tea.  And as for those who say it's a sign from nature you shouldn't breed, should you therefore not treat your sick kid so they don't grow up and pass on their defective genes?

Domestic infant adoption is overwhelmingly private adoption.  It is expensive and highly competitive.  There are very few healthy infants that are placed for adoption.  Costs can run in the range of $40K, and often there are no guarantees you will end up getting a child. Should the birth mother ultimately decide to parent as is common, you may be out some or all of that money after you have paid her medical bills and living expenses.

International adoption is also extremely expensive and it's much more complicated.  Very few programs exist these days and waiting times tend to be several years.

Adoption through the foster care system may come with significant challenges.  When we looked into it, we were strongly discouraged by the county social services agency because they were opposed to transracial adoption, even though it was against the law for them to take the position they did, even at that time.  I hope that's improved and it does depend on the agency you deal with. 

Foster children tend to be older and they tend to have issues as a result of bad home and foster situations that can take years to overcome.  It can be a great choice for families, but it isn't for everyone.  As a PP noted, there are often huge costs in both time, money and tears for therapy and medical bills.

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 11:56:01 AM »
By rules of the jungle, I was the weak runt of the littler and should have been eaten or drowned. But here I am procreating.
Mother Nature has tried to kill off DW several times: appendectomy, complicated pregnancies, etc.

Counterpoint = Stephen Hawking.   100 years ago he would have been toast. 

I agree with everything you wrote.  Just brought it up because it came to mind.



englishteacheralex

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2016, 01:46:22 PM »
Adoptive parent here.  I find this GFM ridiculous, just as I find 95% of them to be ridiculous.  But there is a lot of misunderstanding around adoption out there.  Whenever I see the "oh, they could just adopt!" reaction, I want to cringe.

We declined to do IVF.  There would have been a lot of out of pocket costs and it is very expensive and not covered by many insurance plans.  We didn't do it because for us, it didn't feel right.  Many people do it and more power to them, but not our cup of tea.  And as for those who say it's a sign from nature you shouldn't breed, should you therefore not treat your sick kid so they don't grow up and pass on their defective genes?

Domestic infant adoption is overwhelmingly private adoption.  It is expensive and highly competitive.  There are very few healthy infants that are placed for adoption.  Costs can run in the range of $40K, and often there are no guarantees you will end up getting a child. Should the birth mother ultimately decide to parent as is common, you may be out some or all of that money after you have paid her medical bills and living expenses.

International adoption is also extremely expensive and it's much more complicated.  Very few programs exist these days and waiting times tend to be several years.

Adoption through the foster care system may come with significant challenges.  When we looked into it, we were strongly discouraged by the county social services agency because they were opposed to transracial adoption, even though it was against the law for them to take the position they did, even at that time.  I hope that's improved and it does depend on the agency you deal with. 

Foster children tend to be older and they tend to have issues as a result of bad home and foster situations that can take years to overcome.  It can be a great choice for families, but it isn't for everyone.  As a PP noted, there are often huge costs in both time, money and tears for therapy and medical bills.

Thanks! "Just adopt" is simplistic and facile. Adopting these days is expensive and very difficult. Personally, I was adopted in the seventies, a time when there were many more babies available and the process was less complicated and costly. And being adopted even in probably the most ideal circumstances was still not the easiest way to grow up. I was rough on my parents and they were rough on me. Their biological son had a much easier time with them.

I'm pretty averse to crowd-funding online in almost all cases, but this is a real grey area and it seems pretty judgy/hater-y to cast stones too hard on this one. Just don't give to it...no need to hate on it. Options for people with fertility problems are a lot more stark, complicated, and difficult than the uninitiated realize. I've always thanked my extremely lucky stars that my husband and I were able to conceive twice almost as soon as we decided to try.

vivophoenix

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2016, 03:35:35 PM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?

At least from the male side there are non-genetic factors that will effect reproductive capabilities.  I am sure there are from the female side but I am a male and that is where my IVF experience comes from.

Quote
But yeah. Zero sympathy from me. None of this stuff should be covered by insurance.

I don't know your views but do you believe abortions should be covered by insurance? Currently it can be covered but is not required. As someone who has been through fertility treatments and IVF it would be very upsetting if fertility treatments were not required to be covered but abortions were.

as upsetting as this would be, its more about money and quality of life.

unwanted children have a greater negative impact on society, families and woman, than being unable to conceive naturally.

also abortions do not cost as much as IVF.

not to mention how high risk IVF is with the failure rate combined with the tendency for this to be used for multiple births and with older women.

Pigeon

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2016, 05:41:37 PM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?

At least from the male side there are non-genetic factors that will effect reproductive capabilities.  I am sure there are from the female side but I am a male and that is where my IVF experience comes from.

Quote
But yeah. Zero sympathy from me. None of this stuff should be covered by insurance.

I don't know your views but do you believe abortions should be covered by insurance? Currently it can be covered but is not required. As someone who has been through fertility treatments and IVF it would be very upsetting if fertility treatments were not required to be covered but abortions were.
As someone who has been through some limited fertility treatments not covered by insurance, one has nothing to do with the other. There are always conditions that don't affect you. I don't know that I think ED treatment should be covered but I'm sure many people are glad it is.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2016, 07:01:32 AM by Pigeon »

Proud Foot

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2016, 12:17:35 PM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?

At least from the male side there are non-genetic factors that will effect reproductive capabilities.  I am sure there are from the female side but I am a male and that is where my IVF experience comes from.

Quote
But yeah. Zero sympathy from me. None of this stuff should be covered by insurance.

I don't know your views but do you believe abortions should be covered by insurance? Currently it can be covered but is not required. As someone who has been through fertility treatments and IVF it would be very upsetting if fertility treatments were not required to be covered but abortions were.

as upsetting as this would be, its more about money and quality of life.

unwanted children have a greater negative impact on society, families and woman, than being unable to conceive naturally.

also abortions do not cost as much as IVF.

not to mention how high risk IVF is with the failure rate combined with the tendency for this to be used for multiple births and with older women.

vivophoenix, I completely agree with everything you have said.  As far as insurance coverage for IVF, I am aware of the costs and the risks associated with IVF.  I do think there should be some coverage for fertility treatments but they should be reasonable.  I would not expect for full coverage or even coverage for an unlimited number of cycles. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2016, 01:37:16 PM »
I don't know your views but do you believe abortions should be covered by insurance? Currently it can be covered but is not required. As someone who has been through fertility treatments and IVF it would be very upsetting if fertility treatments were not required to be covered but abortions were.
I have not thought about this for very long, but it seems to me that we are talking about two very different goals:

- Fertility treatment is a very strong "want". Not having the child you desire doesn't affect the life of the prospective parents more than disappointment.
- Abortion is mostly a pragmactic "need". It may be the person's fault for being pregnant, but the societal cost of bringing unwanted children into the world is so high that you could make a very strong case for providing the procedure free of charge to anyone who walks into the door.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2016, 07:48:13 PM »
I don't know your views but do you believe abortions should be covered by insurance? Currently it can be covered but is not required. As someone who has been through fertility treatments and IVF it would be very upsetting if fertility treatments were not required to be covered but abortions were.
I have not thought about this for very long, but it seems to me that we are talking about two very different goals:

- Fertility treatment is a very strong "want". Not having the child you desire doesn't affect the life of the prospective parents more than disappointment.
- Abortion is mostly a pragmactic "need". It may be the person's fault for being pregnant, but the societal cost of bringing unwanted children into the world is so high that you could make a very strong case for providing the procedure free of charge to anyone who walks into the door.

Well said.

obstinate

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2016, 11:46:47 PM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?
Long before that becomes a problem, we will either have killed ourselves off or developed advanced gene editing techniques to fix the problems in utero.

More generally, your question is eugenics. There are no bad questions, but this is about as close to being a bad question as it is possible to get. Under the theory you're espousing here, why have any medical services? Why have antibiotics? Why fix congenital heart defects in newborns? Why not infanticide? Why not any number of terrible things?

I'll leave it to you to decide why not.

Proud Foot

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2016, 07:58:38 AM »
I don't know your views but do you believe abortions should be covered by insurance? Currently it can be covered but is not required. As someone who has been through fertility treatments and IVF it would be very upsetting if fertility treatments were not required to be covered but abortions were.
I have not thought about this for very long, but it seems to me that we are talking about two very different goals:

- Fertility treatment is a very strong "want". Not having the child you desire doesn't affect the life of the prospective parents more than disappointment.
- Abortion is mostly a pragmactic "need". It may be the person's fault for being pregnant, but the societal cost of bringing unwanted children into the world is so high that you could make a very strong case for providing the procedure free of charge to anyone who walks into the door.

Well said Paul and thank you for your response. While I know the way I feel and why I feel that way I certainly agree with the difference between the two. I see it as a case where my view is based upon more of my experience and emotion rather than logic/statistics/reasoning.

zephyr911

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2016, 01:44:24 PM »
I have not thought about this for very long, but it seems to me that we are talking about two very different goals:

- Fertility treatment is a very strong "want". Not having the child you desire doesn't affect the life of the prospective parents more than disappointment.
- Abortion is mostly a pragmactic "need". It may be the person's fault for being pregnant, but the societal cost of bringing unwanted children into the world is so high that you could make a very strong case for providing the procedure free of charge to anyone who walks into the door.

That's before you even get into the preponderance of cases where the child is not just "unwanted", but nonviable ("doomed anyway"), or a threat to the mother's life, etc.

http://jezebel.com/interview-with-a-woman-who-recently-had-an-abortion-at-1781972395

onlykelsey

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2016, 01:50:18 PM »
I have not thought about this for very long, but it seems to me that we are talking about two very different goals:

- Fertility treatment is a very strong "want". Not having the child you desire doesn't affect the life of the prospective parents more than disappointment.
- Abortion is mostly a pragmactic "need". It may be the person's fault for being pregnant, but the societal cost of bringing unwanted children into the world is so high that you could make a very strong case for providing the procedure free of charge to anyone who walks into the door.

That's before you even get into the preponderance of cases where the child is not just "unwanted", but nonviable ("doomed anyway"), or a threat to the mother's life, etc.

http://jezebel.com/interview-with-a-woman-who-recently-had-an-abortion-at-1781972395

I honestly had never given late-term abortion much thought, always thinking it a little icky/borderline morally, despite being generally pro-choice.  A friend of mine from college told me a horrific story about getting (intentionally) pregnant, being put on bedrest for both her and her babies' safety, and then told that both babies were "incompatible" with life in the third trimester.  Because air travel was contraindicated and she couldn't get an abortion where she was, she stayed in place and had to wait to deliver one dead baby and one about-to-die baby at great financial and psychological expense.  I cannot imagine. 

I'm pretty ashamed of myself for never really asking what late-term abortion was for.  I'm glad people are stepping forward and telling their stories despite all the screaming and judgment they're getting.

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2016, 01:54:05 PM »
I honestly had never given late-term abortion much thought, always thinking it a little icky/borderline morally, despite being generally pro-choice.  A friend of mine from college told me a horrific story about getting (intentionally) pregnant, being put on bedrest for both her and her babies' safety, and then told that both babies were "incompatible" with life in the third trimester.  Because air travel was contraindicated and she couldn't get an abortion where she was, she stayed in place and had to wait to deliver one dead baby and one about-to-die baby at great financial and psychological expense.  I cannot imagine. 

I'm pretty ashamed of myself for never really asking what late-term abortion was for.  I'm glad people are stepping forward and telling their stories despite all the screaming and judgment they're getting.
Wow... sounds a lot like what almost happened to the woman in the story.

I gather about half the country is still picturing a woman who, after 9 months of voluntarily carrying, gets to choose delivering (the very next day) a healthy, beautiful child with no medical issues, and having a doctor vacuum its brains out instead, and goes... "huh... I'm actually not up for this mommy thing, better do Option B". I wonder what it would take to socialize the reality.

Making Cookies

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2016, 12:18:37 PM »
"Christian Sharia Law". At times with the most extreme opinions it can seem like that.

Yes, what the article said - frank discussion - is sorely needed on this topic and many others in the USA.

Not discussion shaped by the political class or the media. They are important to discussion but both have voices much louder than everyone else short of grand public protests.

We need to get past these bullet list conversations where the politician (or any other kind of leader) gets up and hollers vague platitudes about some topic and that's the final word on the topic - and the crowd cheers...

No, long form articles like this one are most welcomed.

onlykelsey

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2016, 12:24:57 PM »
I gather about half the country is still picturing a woman who, after 9 months of voluntarily carrying, gets to choose delivering (the very next day) a healthy, beautiful child with no medical issues, and having a doctor vacuum its brains out instead, and goes... "huh... I'm actually not up for this mommy thing, better do Option B". I wonder what it would take to socialize the reality.

What's shitty for me to realize is that is apparently how I thought of things, without really recognizing it.  I mean I was not going around picketing clinics, but I certainly spent no time thinking things through.  I laughed when Trump said abortions were being performed the day before the due date (uh, you mean C-sections??), but didn't think through the fact that if you had a viable fetus at 8 or 9 months, no woman would prefer (and probably no doctor would offer) to have the kid killed in uterus rather than induced/delivered/c-section and adopted out.  These are largely non-viable fetuses.  Lazy of me.

CindyBS

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2016, 08:21:43 PM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?

But yeah. Zero sympathy from me. None of this stuff should be covered by insurance.

Sounds like you are saying that if you happen to have a medical problem that affects your reproductive system, you shouldn't reproduce.  However, plenty of people have severely flawed genes and pass down horrible diseases (cystic fibrosis, Huntington's, schizophrenia, etc.) b/c they don't affect the reproductive system and many people with great genes can't reproduce.

My son has an IQ of 160.  Few would argue that is trait that should not be passed down.  However, he is going through a non-genetic medical problem that he will most likely recover from but leave him sterile.  Our insurance is paying for his sperm to be banked for future use 10-20 years from now and he will most likely require IVF to have a biological child. 

I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater - plenty of people have great genetic traits but have medical issues and everyone with a reproduction problem is not a genetic defective. 

mizzourah2006

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2016, 08:12:13 AM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?

But yeah. Zero sympathy from me. None of this stuff should be covered by insurance.

I think this is an over-simplification of needing IVF. There are plenty of people that use IVF for reasons that are completely non-genetic where the parents are extremely healthy and the doctors just can't figure out why the embryo won't attach.


MgoSam

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2016, 08:39:10 AM »
"Christian Sharia Law". At times with the most extreme opinions it can seem like that.

Yes, what the article said - frank discussion - is sorely needed on this topic and many others in the USA.


Yup! When he said that during the debate, I saw a few people post about how awful this was and was tempted to jump in there to explain that it wasn't women who are able to deliver a perfectly healthy baby but decided the day before to have it aborted, but I knew it would be useless because I would be shouted down by theocrats.

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2016, 02:20:24 PM »
I think this is an over-simplification of needing IVF. There are plenty of people that use IVF for reasons that are completely non-genetic where the parents are extremely healthy and the doctors just can't figure out why the embryo won't attach.

It's difficult to say.  Certainly, idiopathic issues cannot be said to be completely non-genetic and our exploration and understanding of the human genome (and biology in general) is in its infancy.  Philosophically, you could even talk about determinism.

JrDoctor

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2016, 02:54:12 PM »

I'm going to argue against this.  I'm pretty much a fan of science, and I'm not religious, so there you are.

Some people need a little help, for whatever reason. Scarring in the fallopian tubes, older eggs because you didn't meet  your SO until you were 38.  (Doesn't mean there aren't good eggs, just that it could take a lot of years of ovulation to find them),
Nope they are 'bad eggs', by 38 ones oocytes will have marked genetic damage, hence why one gets donated eggs from young women if they need eggs for IVF/ICSI.  When one looks at the risk of Downs (trisomy 21) with age its remarkable how it goes up.  Generally failure to get pregnant is often due to the egg and sperm producing a non viable genetically damaged zygote, which mother nature auto-aborts and often people mistake this as a heavy period.

JrDoctor

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2016, 02:55:04 PM »

Sounds like you are saying that if you happen to have a medical problem that affects your reproductive system, you shouldn't reproduce.  However, plenty of people have severely flawed genes and pass down horrible diseases (cystic fibrosis, Huntington's, schizophrenia, etc.) b/c they don't affect the reproductive system and many people with great genes can't reproduce.

My son has an IQ of 160.  Few would argue that is trait that should not be passed down.  However, he is going through a non-genetic medical problem that he will most likely recover from but leave him sterile.  Our insurance is paying for his sperm to be banked for future use 10-20 years from now and he will most likely require IVF to have a biological child. 

I'd hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater - plenty of people have great genetic traits but have medical issues and everyone with a reproduction problem is not a genetic defective.

Mate Cystic fibrosis tends to make men infertile.

expatartist

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2016, 06:19:58 PM »
Discussions on this topic often focus on infertility as exclusively a woman's problem. Male fertility declines with age as well.

onlykelsey

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2016, 07:44:37 AM »
Discussions on this topic often focus on infertility as exclusively a woman's problem. Male fertility declines with age as well.

Yeah, I raised that on here recently, as well.  Someone flippantly suggested you just marry a much younger woman and avoid these problems, which is not actually a fix.  (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/feb/26/children-older-men-mental-illness-fathers-school for example)

I didn't structure my life solely around reproducing at the perfect age and perfect circumstances, but I definitely did consider age and lifestyle of my boyfriends, where I was living, my age, etc.  Focusing on just "woman's age" doesn't get you very far if you are in debt, living unhealthily, carrying certain diseases, and have a 48 year old father.

mizzourah2006

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2016, 09:24:31 AM »
I think this is an over-simplification of needing IVF. There are plenty of people that use IVF for reasons that are completely non-genetic where the parents are extremely healthy and the doctors just can't figure out why the embryo won't attach.

It's difficult to say.  Certainly, idiopathic issues cannot be said to be completely non-genetic and our exploration and understanding of the human genome (and biology in general) is in its infancy.  Philosophically, you could even talk about determinism.

My wife's body was too "healthy". Her killer T-cell counts were so high they were interpreting the embryo as cancerous. This appears to be one cause for undiagnosed infertility. Is that due to a flawed reproductive system? We actually got pregnant naturally, but she had to use lipid infusions. We were one month away from IVF, but the doctor suggested we get the infusion early so it can start to go to work.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 09:27:13 AM by mizzourah2006 »

clarkfan1979

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2016, 10:46:38 PM »
Semi-serious question: doesn't propping up the genes of people with flawed reproductive systems entail the spread of the problems in their descendants and ultimately the general gene pool?

But yeah. Zero sympathy from me. None of this stuff should be covered by insurance.

Instead of having a kid right after high school at 19, some people go to college and wait until 30 before they have a kid (MMM). Because they waited so long, it can be more difficult to get pregnant. Their genes did not change.

kayvent

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2016, 02:32:23 PM »
Yes actually this is a very interesting side effect of 'modern medicine': people whom Mother Nature keeps trying to kill off, are instead reproducing. It is no longer Survival of the Fittest. The genes are/will continue to get 'worse'.

You misunderstand things. 'Those people' are either able to earn large incomes or drive sympathy to have others give them large sums of money. Those two traits allow them to reproduce. Therefore if they are not 'weeded out', mother nature is affirming that they are making the gene pool better.

Daleth

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2016, 02:39:21 PM »
What I don't understand is why anyone feels the need to be so judgy about this. How about you just decide not to contribute, instead of shaking your head at how unevolved or "selfish" or whatever you think those people are? Or at the very least, maybe you could learn about infertility and solutions to it so that your opinions are based on information instead of assumptions?

If a couple can't have children the usual way, and that couple lives in the US but not in one of the handful of states that mandate infertility coverage in healthy insurance, then all the choices cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Want to "just adopt" (haha, no such thing) domestically?
Prepare to spend $30k-$40k and potentially have one or more birth moms back out on you after you've spent a major chunk of that money on their health care, legal fees etc. And also, prepare to possibly not be approved in your home study (are you too fat? Too old? Too unhealthy? Not rich enough?). And prepare to pass your home study but then get rejected by birth moms because you are the wrong religion, wrong race, wrong sexual orientation, wrong profession, in the wrong neighborhood or location, or whatever other reason may cause a pregnant woman seeking adoptive parents to not like you as much as she likes some other prospective parents. Also, be aware that there's a small chance you could get sued by a birth mom or birth dad and have a court order you to return the child at some point down the line.

Want to "just adopt" internationally? Again, prepare to spend $30k-$40k, plus $5000+ in travel costs, and to wait 2-5 years to bring a child home. Also be prepared for the fact that even after you are matched with a child and have spent most of the money, that child's country might change its rules so international adoptions are no longer possible, or aren't possible for adoptive parents in your country. Also be prepared for the fact that given the conditions of its infancy and toddlerhood, your child may have health problems and/or learning disabilities that will cost you thousands to remedy, if you can remedy them.

Want to try IVF? Actually that's a lot cheaper, on the order of $12k-$15k per attempt, and many clinics offer packages such as "pay $25,000 and get up to three attempts" (i.e., if it works the first time you've spent more than you needed to, if it works on the second try you come out even, and if it takes all three tries you've saved many thousands of bucks). For most couples where the woman is under 40 at each attempt, three attempts will do the trick, you'll be parents within a year or two, and you may even have some frozen embryos left over for siblings.

Want to try donor egg IVF, because the mom is over 40, has been diagnosed with premature ovarian failure, or has bad eggs due to cancer treatment or a genetic anomaly? That'll cost around $20k-$30k, although as with regular IVF there are package deals (e.g., for $35k you get three complete attempts with donors plus the use of all frozen embryos resulting from those attempts). Donor-egg IVF has a far higher success rate than regular IVF because by definition the egg donors are highly fertile and young. On average three attempts with donor eggs will make parents of 80%-90% of couples who try, and not only will you be parents within a year or two, the child is at least as likely to be healthy as if you'd had kids the natural way, and you're not going to run into legal problems (e.g. birth parents trying to get the child back, countries changing their laws right before you were supposed to go get your child, etc.).

And if the cost of IVF or DE IVF in the US is too high
, there are world-class clinics in the Czech Republic, Spain, South Africa and elsewhere that will do IVF treatment for around $4000 and DE IVF for $6000-$10,000. Depending on how far from there you live and how flexible your work schedule is, that can make you parents for far, far less.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 02:42:03 PM by Daleth »

firelight

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2016, 11:50:22 AM »
Well the problem isn't IVF but people crowdfunding it. If they can't even afford to save the $10k-$20k needed for IVF, how will they save enough to raise a kid successfully? I understand crowdfunding for unexpected expenses like a serious illness/accident, etc. But if they know they might need IVF in future,why can't they save it instead of asking others for money?

Daleth

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2016, 04:01:21 PM »
Well the problem isn't IVF but people crowdfunding it. If they can't even afford to save the $10k-$20k needed for IVF, how will they save enough to raise a kid successfully? I understand crowdfunding for unexpected expenses like a serious illness/accident, etc. But if they know they might need IVF in future,why can't they save it instead of asking others for money?

Female fertility drops precipitously with age. It plummets after 35 and drops off a goddamn cliff after 40-41. So unless they can save that amount very quickly (less than a year), taking the time to save up for IVF is not a wise option for women in their thirties, and not many IVF patients are younger than that.

It's an especially bad option for people who want more than one kid. For that you have to factor in the time it'll take to get pregnant and have the first baby, then try for the second. On average the first IVF attempt doesn't work; it takes 2-3 transfers before one "sticks." (For many people it takes far more.) Going through the treatment process to get through three transfers, the tests afterwards to see if it worked (multiple blood tests to check pregnancy hormones over a period of a couple of weeks, then ultrasound to see if there's a heartbeat), and the time necessary after each failed transfer for your hormones to settle down so you can try again, means that three transfers will take about 9-12 months, or more if any transfer initially works but later turns into a miscarriage, as often happens.

So let's say it takes 9 months, then another 8 months after that for the baby to be born (you're already at least 1 month pregnant by the time you have any idea whether it'll stick), then most people want to wait at least a year between babies...
See what I'm getting at? You're basically looking at 2+ years from your first IVF to the point where your baby is old enough for you to try again, and then the first attempt once again probably won't work, so by the time your second pregnancy "sticks" you're nearly 3 years out from when you started. And if you start at or after age 33, that's easily long enough for your fertility to drop significantly.

And on top of that, the time when one parent is home taking care of the baby, or both parents are working and paying through the nose for daycare, is NOT a great time to save up money for the next attempt.

It's true that the fertility vs. time problem vanishes if you use donor egg, but that's a very difficult bridge to cross for most people, and it adds at least $10,000 to the total cost.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 04:12:36 PM by Daleth »

englishteacheralex

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2016, 05:09:06 PM »
Just depends on how you see the role having children should play in people's lives. My opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) is that one of the unintended consequences of birth control is that over the past sixty years procreating in the west is seen in many circles as an optional, very expensive, and faintly narcissistic hobby rather than a fundamental part of being part of the human race.

If you see babies/childrearing as a hobby, it makes sense to get judgmental about crowdfunding IVF. Members of this crowd also tend to talk a lot about overpopulation and how people should "just adopt".

If you see babies/childrearing as a fundamental part of the human experience, something done not so much as a lifestyle choice but more as part of the responsibility handed down to us from the generations preceding us (this view does exist! although it's increasingly rare), it makes sense to view infertility as an existential crisis worthy of community support.

Personally, infertility was not a problem for my husband and me, and we are extremely thankful for that fact. We talked a lot about what we would do if we hypothetically could not have children, and decided against the IVF process because it seemed like it would be arduous, emotionally taxing, and horrifically expensive, and we felt we could accomplish a lot of the same objectives that having a family would give us in other ways. However, now that I have children of my own and have experienced the unparalleled meaning they have brought to my life, I absolutely do not begrudge anyone the desire to go through with IVF, and would certainly contribute to funding for it if a friend of mine needed it.

firelight

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2016, 06:48:11 PM »
I'm not against kids but I can't believe that someone decides to just try for kids through IVF one fine morning. Usually, they've been trying for atleast a year or two at that point, which is enough time to save money for IVF, imho. Also it's a case of priorities - if you want kids enough that you are ready to try for IVF, then you'll prioritize that over eating out or spending over travel.

I know someone that spent 20s and early 30s doing fancy travel and then crowdfunded their IVF. Less traveling would've certainly funded the IVF but their priority was travel.

Daleth

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2016, 07:43:53 AM »
Just depends on how you see the role having children should play in people's lives. My opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) is that one of the unintended consequences of birth control is that over the past sixty years procreating in the west is seen in many circles as an optional, very expensive, and faintly narcissistic hobby rather than a fundamental part of being part of the human race.

If you see babies/childrearing as a hobby, it makes sense to get judgmental about crowdfunding IVF. Members of this crowd also tend to talk a lot about overpopulation and how people should "just adopt".

If you see babies/childrearing as a fundamental part of the human experience, something done not so much as a lifestyle choice but more as part of the responsibility handed down to us from the generations preceding us (this view does exist! although it's increasingly rare), it makes sense to view infertility as an existential crisis worthy of community support.

Personally, infertility was not a problem for my husband and me, and we are extremely thankful for that fact. We talked a lot about what we would do if we hypothetically could not have children, and decided against the IVF process because it seemed like it would be arduous, emotionally taxing, and horrifically expensive, and we felt we could accomplish a lot of the same objectives that having a family would give us in other ways. However, now that I have children of my own and have experienced the unparalleled meaning they have brought to my life, I absolutely do not begrudge anyone the desire to go through with IVF, and would certainly contribute to funding for it if a friend of mine needed it.

I think you're on to something there. And I'm absolutely with you on the boldfaced part. Not saying that everyone should be--nobody should donate to a crowdfunding effort they're not fully on board with, and everybody has the absolute right to decide what they're on board with. Where I have a problem is when people not only don't want to contribute to someone else's IVF, but feel the need to talk to other people IRL or on the web about how wrong, selfish, whatever it is to even ask to crowdfund that.

Daleth

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2016, 07:47:27 AM »
I know someone that spent 20s and early 30s doing fancy travel and then crowdfunded their IVF. Less traveling would've certainly funded the IVF but their priority was travel.

It sounds like you're implying that in their 20s they thought, "Hmm, should I save money in case I need help having kids, or should I spend the money on travel? My priority is travel!" That makes no sense.

Most likely, in their 20s they assumed that like most people they would be able to conceive when they wanted to, and given the ages you're describing (settling down and trying to have kids in their early or at most mid-thirties), that's a very reasonable expectation. Then they got to their early/mid-thirties, found out they needed to do IVF, and had to crowdfund because given their age, waiting to save up the money would have made it less and less likely that the IVF would work.

firelight

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2016, 08:05:28 AM »
I know someone that spent 20s and early 30s doing fancy travel and then crowdfunded their IVF. Less traveling would've certainly funded the IVF but their priority was travel.

It sounds like you're implying that in their 20s they thought, "Hmm, should I save money in case I need help having kids, or should I spend the money on travel? My priority is travel!" That makes no sense.

Most likely, in their 20s they assumed that like most people they would be able to conceive when they wanted to, and given the ages you're describing (settling down and trying to have kids in their early or at most mid-thirties), that's a very reasonable expectation. Then they got to their early/mid-thirties, found out they needed to do IVF, and had to crowdfund because given their age, waiting to save up the money would have made it less and less likely that the IVF would work.
Again no one wakes up one fine day and decides to do IVF. They usually have a year or two where they try naturally. Aren't two years enough to save money? People don't need to save all of their 20s but I find it hard that they don't have 20k to their name when they come to their 30s that they can use for such an important part of their lives.

firelight

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2016, 08:15:34 AM »
Just depends on how you see the role having children should play in people's lives. My opinion (and you know what they say about opinions) is that one of the unintended consequences of birth control is that over the past sixty years procreating in the west is seen in many circles as an optional, very expensive, and faintly narcissistic hobby rather than a fundamental part of being part of the human race.

If you see babies/childrearing as a hobby, it makes sense to get judgmental about crowdfunding IVF. Members of this crowd also tend to talk a lot about overpopulation and how people should "just adopt".

If you see babies/childrearing as a fundamental part of the human experience, something done not so much as a lifestyle choice but more as part of the responsibility handed down to us from the generations preceding us (this view does exist! although it's increasingly rare), it makes sense to view infertility as an existential crisis worthy of community support.

Personally, infertility was not a problem for my husband and me, and we are extremely thankful for that fact. We talked a lot about what we would do if we hypothetically could not have children, and decided against the IVF process because it seemed like it would be arduous, emotionally taxing, and horrifically expensive, and we felt we could accomplish a lot of the same objectives that having a family would give us in other ways. However, now that I have children of my own and have experienced the unparalleled meaning they have brought to my life, I absolutely do not begrudge anyone the desire to go through with IVF, and would certainly contribute to funding for it if a friend of mine needed it.

I think you're on to something there. And I'm absolutely with you on the boldfaced part. Not saying that everyone should be--nobody should donate to a crowdfunding effort they're not fully on board with, and everybody has the absolute right to decide what they're on board with. Where I have a problem is when people not only don't want to contribute to someone else's IVF, but feel the need to talk to other people IRL or on the web about how wrong, selfish, whatever it is to even ask to crowdfund that.
I'm not against people crowdfunding their IVF and others giving to it. To each his own! I just find it funny that someone who doesn't even have money for IVF is ready to take on the costs of bringing in a kid (have you seen the hospital bills?) and raising the kid (again more costs). And especially, most people attempting IVF (from what I've seen) are in professional careers and to say that they don't have even 20k to their name when they are in their 30s (and been in such careers for more than 4-5 years) that they are willing to put towards to this is appalling.

Again this is solely from what I've seen. YMMV and as a result, your conclusions might be different.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 08:22:38 AM by firelight »

ysette9

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2016, 08:42:34 AM »
This is an interesting discussion. Literally on my To Do list for today is to call our REI (reproductive endocrinology and infertility) clinic and get an appointment for us to have a consultation and get on the IVF waiting list. Like many people, we never dreamed we would have infertility problems. We have literally spent the last 5 years trying to make babies. We started the same month I turned 30. As others have noted, we did the "responsible" thing and got our degrees, our careers started, got money in the bank and lots of fun travel and other play under our belts before starting to try.

We got pregnant easily (2nd try!) Awesome, until the fetus died in utero somewhere around 17-19 weeks along. Never have I felt such emotional pain. I got a D&E (thank god I live in California and not some backwards state that limits the medical options available to women), recovered, waited a couple of months, and then got easily pregnant again. Once again, the fetus died in utero at the 17-19 week mark. At this point I got transferred from the normal OBGYN department to the perinatology (i.e. high-risk) department as we all scrubbed the medical journals for clues and my specialist brought my case up in her staff meetings for discussion. The best guess we could come up with was that my immune system was attacking the placenta, eventually compromising it to the point it couldn't sustain the pregnancy. We decided on an experimental set of immune-suppressing drugs and it took 7 emotionally fraught months for me to get pregnant a third time.

Very luckily we had a healthy, tiny, preemie little girl who is growing up to be a confident, strong-willed, healthy little girl who I adore more than I could have imagined. We really want another baby and have been trying for 14 months, 7 of those months with assistance. I turn 35 next month and that weighs on me heavily. We certainly didn't imagine we would end up doing IVF, but here we are, ready to get on the 4-month waiting list as we continue to try more and more invasive and expensive intervention. Thankfully we have insurance that covers some and plenty of income and savings to cover the rest. A few thoughts I have formed out of all of this.

  • We have such a high rate of risky multiple pregnancies in the US (octomom) because we have to pay for IVF ourselves, therefore people want to increase their success chances by transferring multiple embryos at a time. In Europe and other countries where IVF is covered, they limit to 1 or 2 embryos transferred at a time, reducing the risk for mother and baby.
  • Pregnancy, childbirth, infertility, everything is intensely PERSONAL and is non of your fucking business. It is absolutely only the business of the woman, her partner, and her doctor. Period. Your opinion (and mine as an outsider) means nothing. Politicians have absolutely zero right to butt their heads in this process. Religions should stay the F out and go find something useful to do with their time.
  • As an engineer, I plan and strategize and research and document my way to success in everything in life. Fertility absolutely does not follow that linear planning method. Mother Nature has has own agenda and you only have so much control. Keep that in mind when tempted to judge people for their life choices, trying to get pregnant while older, etc. You just can't know what their history has been.

charis

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2016, 09:09:37 AM »
I'm not against people crowdfunding their IVF and others giving to it. To each his own! I just find it funny that someone who doesn't even have money for IVF is ready to take on the costs of bringing in a kid (have you seen the hospital bills?) and raising the kid (again more costs). And especially, most people attempting IVF (from what I've seen) are in professional careers and to say that they don't have even 20k to their name when they are in their 30s (and been in such careers for more than 4-5 years) that they are willing to put towards to this is appalling.

Again this is solely from what I've seen. YMMV and as a result, your conclusions might be different.

First, most people get pregnant within a year of trying to conceive, so no, they aren't planning for IVF until the need becomes clear.  And then they certainly don't have another year or two to save for IVF because any more delay increases the chances that it will not work.   Second, most otherwise healthy people trying to conceive in their late 20s and early 30s are not going to experience fertility problems.  So expecting them to have an extra 20K+ on hand at that age that isn't needed or used elsewhere (student loans, mortgage, retirement, etc) is fairly ridiculous.   Third, as to your bolded part, most couples in this category have health insurance that covers most of the cost of delivering in a hospital.  Thus, the cost of bearing and delivering a healthy baby (and raising, for mustachians) is not that high.

I agree that people who pursue this need to be financially prepared to do it on their own.  But I would also contribute to a close friend's IVF fundraising efforts and think judging people for this is shortsighted and pathetic. 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2016, 10:15:02 AM »
Would it be weird to be the kid whose IVF conception was crowdfunded?

cheapass

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2016, 01:33:24 PM »
Crowdfunding because you can't afford something you need (cancer treatments, IVF, whatever) is one thing. Crowdfunding because you spent all your money on shit you can't afford and now you don't have any money to pay for the "unexpected" expense is an entirely different animal. Have some f-ing foresight, people.

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Re: Crowdfunding IVF
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2016, 01:49:16 PM »
Quote
Crowdfunding because you spent all your money on shit you can't afford and now you don't have any money to pay for the "unexpected" expense is an entirely different animal. Have some f-ing foresight, people.

When the "unexpected" expense is a car repair, replacing the roof, or a temporary job loss, then I agree with you that there should be money sitting around for those situations. However when two young, healthy people are told "sorry, but you can't seem to have kids on your own, your choices are IVF for $25K+, surrogacy for $40K+, or whatever" that just doesn't fall into the realm of reasonable, expected expenses.