Author Topic: Crazy neighbor spending  (Read 16966 times)

nixjasr

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Crazy neighbor spending
« on: December 18, 2015, 10:34:03 AM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2015, 11:06:27 AM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)


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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2015, 11:10:40 AM »
Spending is good for the economy. Someone's got to do it.

The snowplow guy is probably glad for the employment opportunity.

onehair

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 11:19:29 AM »
if stupid people with money are willing to give it to you to do something so simple it is your duty to take it...

nixjasr

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 11:37:53 AM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)

Actually, TheAnonOne, I'm not jealous at all of people who live in a way that harms the environment and is completely unsustainable for the rest of the planet, nor do I need you to define for me what the FIRE lifestyle is all about. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that most people on this forum have appointed you to speak for them, and of what they approve and disapprove.
Speaking only for myself, the point of the FIRE lifestyle and strategy is to live in harmony with the world's resources and one's own financial resources, which leads to financial stability on a wide range of income levels. I don't believe a billionaire has any more right to abuse the earth's resources than the rest of us, and I don't buy into the idea that we need conspicuous consumption such as this to have a viable economy.
Walking instead of driving when possible is desirable, and better for the community. Doing things for yourself is admirable, no matter your income level.

frugalnacho

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 11:55:55 AM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)

Actually, TheAnonOne, I'm not jealous at all of people who live in a way that harms the environment and is completely unsustainable for the rest of the planet, nor do I need you to define for me what the FIRE lifestyle is all about. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that most people on this forum have appointed you to speak for them, and of what they approve and disapprove.
Speaking only for myself, the point of the FIRE lifestyle and strategy is to live in harmony with the world's resources and one's own financial resources, which leads to financial stability on a wide range of income levels. I don't believe a billionaire has any more right to abuse the earth's resources than the rest of us, and I don't buy into the idea that we need conspicuous consumption such as this to have a viable economy.
Walking instead of driving when possible is desirable, and better for the community. Doing things for yourself is admirable, no matter your income level.

yep

Fishindude

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 12:03:54 PM »
The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k,
Would you rather see the home sit empty?

Had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning
Maybe they have more important things to do, and this expenditure isn't a big deal to them?


so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).

This is a little ridiculous that kids couldn't walk to school, but what makes the difference if it's a Land Rover or a mini-van?   Land Rover doesn't damage the planet any more than my F-150.


Sounds like jealousy.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2015, 12:07:52 PM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)

Not my experience on this forum...

You are pretty far off actually. This section is exactly for calling out people for being "lavish and spending a lot."

Just because you can technically afford to be lazy and stupid, doesn't mean we won't call you out for being lazy or stupid.

I don't give a rat's ass if those people are billionaires. If they pay someone to do something relatively simple they could do themselves, and especially in the case of driving a few blocks when they could have just walked, then yes the story belongs in the section of the forum - in my opinion anyway.






TRBeck

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2015, 12:11:00 PM »
If you're calling this jealousy, I don't understand why you read MMM or visit this forum.

This is all ridiculous bullshit spending and destructive of community and the environment. Having taught these assholes' children at various private and suburban public schools, I can also tell you that it makes for weak, entitled, whiny kids.

Fishindude

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2015, 12:21:27 PM »
A $300,000 home isn't exactly an "earth ship".

Roboturner

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2015, 12:24:27 PM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)

Not my experience on this forum...

You are pretty far off actually. This section is exactly for calling out people for being "lavish and spending a lot."

Just because you can technically afford to be lazy and stupid, doesn't mean we won't call you out for being lazy or stupid.

I don't give a rat's ass if those people are billionaires. If they pay someone to do something relatively simple they could do themselves, and especially in the case of driving a few blocks when they could have just walked, then yes the story belongs in the section of the forum - in my opinion anyway.

+1

Eric

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2015, 01:26:09 PM »
A $300,000 home isn't exactly an "earth ship".

That'd get you a really nice place to put your tent in my neighborhood.  Talk about eco-friendly!

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2015, 01:33:39 PM »
A $300,000 home isn't exactly an "earth ship".

That'd get you a really nice place to put your tent in my neighborhood.  Talk about eco-friendly!

I am going to be bold and guess Silicon Valley or NYC

Altons Bobs

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2015, 01:13:27 PM »
iowajes is right, someone's gotta stimulate the economy, please thank your neighbor for doing it!  ;-)

Maybe your neighbor's time is more important that it's more beneficial for him to spend somewhere else and he's willing to spend money for snow plowing in exchange for his time?!

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2015, 01:28:40 PM »
Are some of the posters here seriously suggesting that we shouldn't make fun of people for driving 100 yards? *double checks the address bar*

Altons Bobs

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2015, 01:33:48 PM »
Maybe they needed to go somewhere after dropping the kids off?  If it was you, would you walk 100 yards, and then walk back and drive your car out to run errands?  Some people treasures their time more than others I guess?!

Catomi

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2015, 01:52:00 PM »
Maybe they needed to go somewhere after dropping the kids off?  If it was you, would you walk 100 yards, and then walk back and drive your car out to run errands?  Some people treasures their time more than others I guess?!

Yep, absolutely. But it takes me longer to buckle/unbuckle both kids (especially now that the elder wants to buckle himself) than to walk that distance, so it would be wasting both time and money.

tyort1

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2015, 02:26:50 PM »
Are some of the posters here seriously suggesting that we shouldn't make fun of people for driving 100 yards? *double checks the address bar*

I'm with you. 

TRBeck

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2015, 02:54:57 PM »
Maybe they needed to go somewhere after dropping the kids off?  If it was you, would you walk 100 yards, and then walk back and drive your car out to run errands?  Some people treasures their time more than others I guess?!

Yep, absolutely. But it takes me longer to buckle/unbuckle both kids (especially now that the elder wants to buckle himself) than to walk that distance, so it would be wasting both time and money.
This. Plus I "treasures" my time talking to my kids and getting them physical activity, both of which occur more easily when walking.

Okay, and even if it weren't for the seatbelting and car seats...100 yards? Are you fucking kidding me? It takes, what, 40 seconds to walk that? Even discounting buckling and unbuckling, you're talking less than two minutes of "lost" time.

Fucking amazing.

Jakejake

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2015, 03:05:45 PM »
I see a different but similar thing on my bike ride to work every morning. If the temp drops below 50F, a bunch of parents wait with their high school aged kids at the bus stop, in their cars with the engines idling so they have heat. The cars are idling long enough that I can drive the length of the street and off into the distance with no sign of the bus coming, there are sidewalks and crosswalk signs the entire way to their school. I'm in my 50s and I bike past them and past their school on my ride to the school where I work.  Their ride would be less than half my daily commute.

But even if they don't want to bike, it just blows my mind that they will sit in the car with the engine running when it's in the high 40's. It's not related to how easily they can afford to waste the fuel, it's more about how soft they are raising their kids to be.

former player

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2015, 06:53:24 PM »
I'm curious to know how much snow had fallen.  Because a Land Rover should be able to cope with at least a foot without any problems at all.

Much fun can be had, if you are that way inclined, checking out "Land Rover Deep Water" and "Land Rover Deep Snow" on youtube.

Ohio Teacher

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2015, 11:59:22 PM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)
All of what the OP shared involved Antimustachian behavior: from the 6000+ sq ft $1 M house, to the not using muscle over motor to shovel the drive, to the using a clown car SUV to go an extremely short distance.

I wonder if some of you just don't realize you are on the Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy.  This is where we make fun of this bullshit behavior, not chastise the OP for making the thread.

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2015, 09:18:32 AM »
My disdain for these clueless morons has nothing to do with jealousy.

I don't care if they're actually wealthy, or just debt-funding their pretentious lifestyle. They are pathetic bitches, and they are choosing to pay for the privilege of becoming even more pathetic bitches. Just get all the kids fuckin' Rascal scooters and feeding tubes already, and slap diapers on them because wiping their asses will get hard fast when their muscles atrophy too much to reach around past the giant ass cheeks this lifestyle will earn them.

FFS, the subtitle of MMM's blog is "early retirement through badassity". The behavior described herein is in the opposite thereof.

MgoSam

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2015, 09:20:49 AM »
I just wanted to state, and couldn't find another thread appropriate for this, that I do feel bad for people that make money shoveling snow. A guy in my warehouse does so for side income and here in Minnesota, we haven't yet had a day requiring it.

Personally I am happy, I hate snow, but yeah.

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2015, 10:15:34 AM »
I just wanted to state, and couldn't find another thread appropriate for this, that I do feel bad for people that make money shoveling snow. A guy in my warehouse does so for side income and here in Minnesota, we haven't yet had a day requiring it.

Personally I am happy, I hate snow, but yeah.

There are a lot of places here that sell for the season, with prepayment required. This year, they are making out really well. A few years back, the homeowners won: there was snow all the freaking time.

MgoSam

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2015, 10:39:47 AM »
I just wanted to state, and couldn't find another thread appropriate for this, that I do feel bad for people that make money shoveling snow. A guy in my warehouse does so for side income and here in Minnesota, we haven't yet had a day requiring it.

Personally I am happy, I hate snow, but yeah.

There are a lot of places here that sell for the season, with prepayment required. This year, they are making out really well. A few years back, the homeowners won: there was snow all the freaking time.

That's a fair point. It doesn't work out so well for my employee as he does it on a job-by-job basis.

Blueskies123

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2015, 10:49:57 AM »
Are some of the posters here seriously suggesting that we shouldn't make fun of people for driving 100 yards? *double checks the address bar*

I knew a woman that drove from her garage 100 feet to her mail box.  100 yards is 3x further.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2015, 01:08:59 PM »
I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)

Actually, TheAnonOne, I'm not jealous at all of people who live in a way that harms the environment and is completely unsustainable for the rest of the planet, nor do I need you to define for me what the FIRE lifestyle is all about. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that most people on this forum have appointed you to speak for them, and of what they approve and disapprove.
Speaking only for myself, the point of the FIRE lifestyle and strategy is to live in harmony with the world's resources and one's own financial resources, which leads to financial stability on a wide range of income levels. I don't believe a billionaire has any more right to abuse the earth's resources than the rest of us, and I don't buy into the idea that we need conspicuous consumption such as this to have a viable economy.
Walking instead of driving when possible is desirable, and better for the community. Doing things for yourself is admirable, no matter your income level.

I see that I struck a chord with a few here.

Everything I said, of course, was from my point of view. I don't have the environmentalist edge on me, so I don't judge on those grounds at all. I use the board mostly for financials only, of which, we have no idea if this individual is well within his/her means at all.

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2015, 01:47:22 PM »
They're still weak and pathetic. Fuck'm! >.<

nixjasr

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2015, 02:21:45 PM »
When I made this original post, I had no idea there were readers of MMM who actually believe the trickle-down idea that we need wealthy parents and their spoiled progeny to create jobs for the rest of us serfs, who should not only refrain from judging their behavior, but should actually be thankful to them for allowing us do things for them.
I think that's bullshit slave morality, and don't believe for a minute that an economy must rely on the destructive, ridiculous behavior of god-like "job creators" in order to thrive.
Other than trolling, which must get old after a while, I wonder what you could possibly get out of this blog (and especially this thread) if this is truly what you believe. I can't think of a single MMM article that doesn't run counter tho this type of thinking. 
Save money in any reasonable way possible and use it efficiently. Do things for yourself and learn to do more for yourself. Don't engage in wasteful spending or accumulating status symbols. Unless I'm missing something, that's what this is all about.

arebelspy

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2015, 05:53:55 PM »

I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)

Actually, TheAnonOne, I'm not jealous at all of people who live in a way that harms the environment and is completely unsustainable for the rest of the planet, nor do I need you to define for me what the FIRE lifestyle is all about. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that most people on this forum have appointed you to speak for them, and of what they approve and disapprove.
Speaking only for myself, the point of the FIRE lifestyle and strategy is to live in harmony with the world's resources and one's own financial resources, which leads to financial stability on a wide range of income levels. I don't believe a billionaire has any more right to abuse the earth's resources than the rest of us, and I don't buy into the idea that we need conspicuous consumption such as this to have a viable economy.
Walking instead of driving when possible is desirable, and better for the community. Doing things for yourself is admirable, no matter your income level.

I see that I struck a chord with a few here.

Everything I said, of course, was from my point of view. I don't have the environmentalist edge on me, so I don't judge on those grounds at all. I use the board mostly for financials only, of which, we have no idea if this individual is well within his/her means at all.

And the people disagreeing with you are saying that it doesn't matter if they're living within their means.

They could be making 10MM/year and spending 1MM, for a 90% savings rate, the actions in the OP are still antiMustachian.

Mustachian doesn't mean "as long as you're living within your means, waste your money on any stupid * however you want."

See: bedpan and catheter article.
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TheAnonOne

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2015, 06:12:21 PM »

I don't mean to be judgy about my neighbor, but I'm gonna. The family of four at the end of the next block, who in 2013 bought $1.1 million, 6,250 sq. ft. mansion in a neighborhood where you can buy a really nice home for $300k, had a professional snow removal team clear the drive for them this morning so they could drive their kids to school in the Land Rover. The school is within sight of their house (about 100 yards).
Oh, and they left the Tesla parked in the garage.

Is this pure jealousy? What if they are billionaires?

The forum isn't simply to complain about people being lavish and spending a lot. The best posts are more or less, this person spent way to much but borrowed for it all and is in giant debt.

If they can afford it, they are fine in most people's eyes here... (Something, I am guessing you do not know.)

Actually, TheAnonOne, I'm not jealous at all of people who live in a way that harms the environment and is completely unsustainable for the rest of the planet, nor do I need you to define for me what the FIRE lifestyle is all about. I also find it interesting that you seem to believe that most people on this forum have appointed you to speak for them, and of what they approve and disapprove.
Speaking only for myself, the point of the FIRE lifestyle and strategy is to live in harmony with the world's resources and one's own financial resources, which leads to financial stability on a wide range of income levels. I don't believe a billionaire has any more right to abuse the earth's resources than the rest of us, and I don't buy into the idea that we need conspicuous consumption such as this to have a viable economy.
Walking instead of driving when possible is desirable, and better for the community. Doing things for yourself is admirable, no matter your income level.

I see that I struck a chord with a few here.

Everything I said, of course, was from my point of view. I don't have the environmentalist edge on me, so I don't judge on those grounds at all. I use the board mostly for financials only, of which, we have no idea if this individual is well within his/her means at all.

And the people disagreeing with you are saying that it doesn't matter if they're living within their means.

They could be making 10MM/year and spending 1MM, for a 90% savings rate, the actions in the OP are still antiMustachian.

Mustachian doesn't mean "as long as you're living within your means, waste your money on any stupid * however you want."

See: bedpan and catheter article.

Indeed, I will give that point.

Mr. Llama

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2015, 06:11:24 AM »
If you want to mock and berate someone for driving 100 yards (which I kind of suspect has been inflated to prove a point) then I'd say that's pretty fair game. After that it goes downhill fast.

The mere fact that they have a more expensive house than you has nothing to do with anything and bringing it up definitely smacks of jealousy. Should people with $100k houses call you a rich, wasteful asshole? Where does it end?

Calling a household crazy for deciding to outsource their snow shovelling just seems kind of shitty. I personally hire professionals quite regularly to do household chores or work that I'm not good at and/or don't enjoy. They get an income and I have more time to do stuff that I'm good at.

You know barely nothing about these people and you have already judged and scorned them. That doesn't seem a particularly happy way to live life.

ash7962

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2015, 07:33:23 AM »
I'm going to actually link the catheter/bedpan post.  Its worth a reread if anyone hasn't read it in a while.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/

Also, I think it is crazy to outsource snow shovelling.  The only way I'd consider it is if a couple of neighborhood kids were trying to get some work out of it.  If you hate snow shovelling and household chores so much then it might make more sense to live in a condo or apartment.  Also see this post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/13/domestic-outsourcing-practical-or-wussypants/

mlejw6

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2015, 08:07:41 AM »
Just imagine what these parents are teaching their kids.

"No, Susie, you can't walk to school. It's too dangerous/cold/long/dark/hot/whatever. I'll just drive you in our huge gas-guzzling vehicle after we get Bob to plow the driveway. No one can walk in this weather."


dude

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2015, 08:18:55 AM »
Now, I don't claim to be the most Mustachian guy around these parts, and I've gone on record many times as saying that I don't want to live the $25k lifestyle of MMM (god bless him), though I agree 100% with his call to live a more principled life in accordance with one's values, with one of those values being doing one's part to not trash the planet we live on all in the name of mindless consumerism -- but is it just me, or has the popularity of this website brought an increasingly un-Mustachian element to these forums in the past year or so?  I hate to sound like that "get off my lawn" senior neighbor, but I've noticed a more crass, less civilized tone of late in many forum posts as well.

Have the MMM forums jumped the shark?

Jakejake

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2015, 08:25:00 AM »
Also, I think it is crazy to outsource snow shovelling.  The only way I'd consider it is if a couple of neighborhood kids were trying to get some work out of it.  If you hate snow shovelling and household chores so much then it might make more sense to live in a condo or apartment. 

I disagree with this part of your post. I can envision having back problems or a heart condition. etc. that makes shoveling snow painful or dangerous. But that doesn't mean I'd want to live in a condo or apartment because I value my privacy and quiet more than just about anything.

I can also see other situations where I'd potentially hire someone to clear the driveway if I meant I didn't have to set my alarm an hour early repeatedly because I don't know if I will or won't have to shovel if there's a chance of snow. Or this: I've been ticketed in the past for not clearing my sidewalk within two hours of a snowfall. The deal that day was I left for work at 5am, then heavy snow fell, I didn't get home til evening because of an 8.5 hour workday and 3-4 hour commute due to weather. By the time I got home, I had the ticket, but there was no way I could have shoveled while at work 60 miles away.

mbl

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2015, 09:08:27 AM »
I just wanted to state, and couldn't find another thread appropriate for this, that I do feel bad for people that make money shoveling snow. A guy in my warehouse does so for side income and here in Minnesota, we haven't yet had a day requiring it.

Personally I am happy, I hate snow, but yeah.

....sorry, but this made me laugh out loud....
Why do you choose to live in Minnesota then?

mm1970

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2015, 10:03:33 AM »
When I made this original post, I had no idea there were readers of MMM who actually believe the trickle-down idea that we need wealthy parents and their spoiled progeny to create jobs for the rest of us serfs, who should not only refrain from judging their behavior, but should actually be thankful to them for allowing us do things for them.
I think that's bullshit slave morality, and don't believe for a minute that an economy must rely on the destructive, ridiculous behavior of god-like "job creators" in order to thrive.
Other than trolling, which must get old after a while, I wonder what you could possibly get out of this blog (and especially this thread) if this is truly what you believe. I can't think of a single MMM article that doesn't run counter tho this type of thinking. 
Save money in any reasonable way possible and use it efficiently. Do things for yourself and learn to do more for yourself. Don't engage in wasteful spending or accumulating status symbols. Unless I'm missing something, that's what this is all about.
I have to say, this is probably one area where maybe I'm not the most mustachian person.

Because I kind of believe in trickle-down - but not in the traditional sense.  Not in, lets give rich people tax deductions.

What I see happening in the US is many things:
-loss of good manual jobs due to offshoring (manufacturing)
-loss of good tech jobs due to offshoring (programming)
-loss of the good work ethic in some people (but, this is a personal thing - some people really revere the hard core work ethic, but there needs to be balance)

So, there's nothing wrong with hard work, and I agree that it's good to not stray far from that.  Mow your own lawn, wash your own car, cook your own meals, etc.

But...where's the balance?
Grow your own food - MMM doesn't do that
Teach your own kids - should everyone homeschool?

So what is better or worse? 
If everyone grew their own food, would we need as many farmers or grocery stores?
If everyone cleaned their own houses, would we need cleaning services?
If everyone mowed their own lawns or shoveled their own snow...?

Is it better or worse to employ someone to clean your house, or to have them collect welfare?

It's shades of gray for me.  Sure, I recognize the mustachian answer, but I think economics is more complicated than that.  I don't know the answers, just thinking out loud.

nixjasr

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2015, 11:13:03 AM »
MM1970 wrote:

"So, there's nothing wrong with hard work, and I agree that it's good to not stray far from that.  Mow your own lawn, wash your own car, cook your own meals, etc.
But...where's the balance?
Grow your own food - MMM doesn't do that
Teach your own kids - should everyone homeschool?

So what is better or worse? 
If everyone grew their own food, would we need as many farmers or grocery stores?
If everyone cleaned their own houses, would we need cleaning services?
If everyone mowed their own lawns or shoveled their own snow...?"

I take the point, and have often considered it myself. What if the economy were changed significantly so that people did more for themselves? What would happen to service jobs (restaurants, carpentry, etc.)? Further, what would happen to the economy if we were to cut down buying Chinese factory-made trinkets for Christmas gifts, things that would end up in the trash bin after a few days? Would the economy be able to survive this? What would happen to VSTAX?

As usual, MMM's answer to this is more eloquent than my own: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/04/09/what-if-everyone-became-frugal/

I honestly believe that, if we value true craftsmanship vs. the cheap and expendable, we would support a kind of labor with dignity, and owning fewer, higher quality items would be a net benefit for a different, improved economy. I'm even crazy enough to envision a world in which people are paid to repair well-made tools and appliances, vs. throwing them in a landfill and buying new, cheaply-made items and perpetuating the cycle.
I wouldn't go so far as to advocate an economy built on the creation of $60 hand-made light bulbs, but I do think splurging for fewer bottles of craft beer (vs. the other stuff) or fewer, higher quality meals in restaurants is better for a civilized economy than going for quantity over quality.
People were talking about this at the beginning of the 20th century and the point remains valid today (John Ruskin, The Stones of Venice).

The problem with an economy built on the assumption that those at the highest income levels support the whole thing by having the rest of us empty their chamber pots and other menial labor is that we've seen it work better with a thriving middle class supporting the labor of others in the middle class (the carpenter purchasing the Mustang built in Detroit, etc.).

The problem I have with a family of four living in a 6,200 sq. ft. house and not daring to venture out into the neighborhood to shovel snow or walk to school is that it's bad for the sense of community and an unhealthy way to raise kids. I've lived in the Third World, and totally get the idea that it helps the local economy on occasion to pay someone a few pesos to polish your shoes; I've done it. But this isn't the Third World, and I'm not sure that's the model to which we should aspire.
Raising your kids in such a way that they live in (often gated) houses three times those of their neighbors and never encounter the slightest hint of physical work or hardship produces a spoiled, entitled generation that is completely out of touch with the values epsoused in this blog. As a teacher, I've encountered these little demigods and can tell you it's no picnic getting through the layer of affluenza to get them to think from a different point of view. 
Despite my best efforts, I can't possibly imagine how questioning this betrays some sense of jealousy of not being able to live in this way myself. I would go crazy within a week.

 

I'm a red panda

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2015, 11:30:51 AM »
Also, I think it is crazy to outsource snow shovelling.  The only way I'd consider it is if a couple of neighborhood kids were trying to get some work out of it.  If you hate snow shovelling and household chores so much then it might make more sense to live in a condo or apartment. 

I disagree with this part of your post. I can envision having back problems or a heart condition. etc. that makes shoveling snow painful or dangerous. But that doesn't mean I'd want to live in a condo or apartment because I value my privacy and quiet more than just about anything.

I can also see other situations where I'd potentially hire someone to clear the driveway if I meant I didn't have to set my alarm an hour early repeatedly because I don't know if I will or won't have to shovel if there's a chance of snow. Or this: I've been ticketed in the past for not clearing my sidewalk within two hours of a snowfall. The deal that day was I left for work at 5am, then heavy snow fell, I didn't get home til evening because of an 8.5 hour workday and 3-4 hour commute due to weather. By the time I got home, I had the ticket, but there was no way I could have shoveled while at work 60 miles away.

People die every year while shoveling snow. It is hard on the heart.  I think outsourcing it makes a lot of sense once you reach a certain age, or if you have an illness that effects your fitness level.


Also- your community has a 2-hour clear rule? That is insane.  Ours is either 24- or 48- hours.
It seems like most people couldn't have it done in 2 hours because they are at work.  What if the snow stops at 2 am? Are you expected to have it done by 4 am? That would allow the city to just rake in the money!

Fishindude

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2015, 11:35:17 AM »
The problem I have with a family of four living in a 6,200 sq. ft. house and not daring to venture out into the neighborhood to shovel snow or walk to school is that it's bad for the sense of community and an unhealthy way to raise kids.

There have been a lot of good kids come out of environments like this, same as there have been a lot of lousy kids com out of environments where they had to work, scrap and scrounge for everything.

Raising your kids in such a way that they live in (often gated) houses three times those of their neighbors and never encounter the slightest hint of physical work or hardship produces a spoiled, entitled generation that is completely out of touch with the values epsoused in this blog.

I really doubt there is any physical proof or evidence to support this.  For the most part, lousy kids come from lousy parents, and you can find lousy parents at all levels.

As a teacher, I've encountered these little demigods and can tell you it's no picnic getting through the layer of affluenza to get them to think from a different point of view. 

And some would contend that teachers have no grasp of the real world, spending their entire careers as public employees, never having to be accountable for a budget, being protected by a union against termination and discipline, working half a year and getting all summer off, not working every time it snows, etc.    This isn't 100% accurate either, but it's as accurate as your blanket assumptions about the neighbors in the big house.

JrDoctor

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2015, 12:36:15 PM »
I agree with the environmental slant.  Why wealthy people feel they should be able to abuse the environment more than the poor I dont understand.  its like that cunt dicaprio.  Bangs on about saving the environment while fucking about on a private jet and a load of fucking huge yachts. 

MgoSam

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2015, 01:01:08 PM »
I agree with the environmental slant.  Why wealthy people feel they should be able to abuse the environment more than the poor I dont understand.  its like that cunt dicaprio.  Bangs on about saving the environment while fucking about on a private jet and a load of fucking huge yachts.

In California, some neighborhoods are saying F you, to anyone that suggests conservation. In fact, some areas, water usage has gone up!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/rich-californians-youll-have-to-pry-the-hoses-from-our-cold-dead-hands/2015/06/13/fac6f998-0e39-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html

Kris

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2015, 01:02:47 PM »
I just wanted to state, and couldn't find another thread appropriate for this, that I do feel bad for people that make money shoveling snow. A guy in my warehouse does so for side income and here in Minnesota, we haven't yet had a day requiring it.

Personally I am happy, I hate snow, but yeah.

There are a lot of places here that sell for the season, with prepayment required. This year, they are making out really well. A few years back, the homeowners won: there was snow all the freaking time.

That's a fair point. It doesn't work out so well for my employee as he does it on a job-by-job basis.

Agreed -- better business model to prepay for the season.  Also, though, keep in mind that a lot of these guys also mow grass in the summer, so at least there's that.

But I've been thinking about the people who depend on winter weather tourism, e.g. ice fishing, snowmobiling, etc. This is gonna be a shite winter for them.  But, like you, I hate snow, so I'm personally rejoicing.

nixjasr

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2015, 01:03:41 PM »
 
Quote

And some would contend that teachers have no grasp of the real world, spending their entire careers as public employees, never having to be accountable for a budget, being protected by a union against termination and discipline, working half a year and getting all summer off, not working every time it snows, etc.    This isn't 100% accurate either, but it's as accurate as your blanket assumptions about the neighbors in the big house.

Yes. Teachers are to blame with what's wrong with the world, what with their unions and such.
I challenge anyone who believes this nonsense to work a "cushy" teaching gig for 12 months and tell me how easy it is. Oh, and we work far more than half a year, and aren't paid during the summer. It's a nine-month contract.

Kris

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2015, 01:07:00 PM »
The problem I have with a family of four living in a 6,200 sq. ft. house and not daring to venture out into the neighborhood to shovel snow or walk to school is that it's bad for the sense of community and an unhealthy way to raise kids.

There have been a lot of good kids come out of environments like this, same as there have been a lot of lousy kids com out of environments where they had to work, scrap and scrounge for everything.



I'm sure you're right.  But I think it's reasonable to assume that the fact they end up being good kids is not BECAUSE of this type of over-the-top coddling, but rather IN SPITE OF it.

arebelspy

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2015, 01:20:32 PM »
Now, I don't claim to be the most Mustachian guy around these parts, and I've gone on record many times as saying that I don't want to live the $25k lifestyle of MMM (god bless him), though I agree 100% with his call to live a more principled life in accordance with one's values, with one of those values being doing one's part to not trash the planet we live on all in the name of mindless consumerism -- but is it just me, or has the popularity of this website brought an increasingly un-Mustachian element to these forums in the past year or so?  I hate to sound like that "get off my lawn" senior neighbor, but I've noticed a more crass, less civilized tone of late in many forum posts as well.

Have the MMM forums jumped the shark?

Yes.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
We (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out our Now page to see what we're up to currently.

HairyUpperLip

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2015, 01:59:01 PM »
Now, I don't claim to be the most Mustachian guy around these parts, and I've gone on record many times as saying that I don't want to live the $25k lifestyle of MMM (god bless him), though I agree 100% with his call to live a more principled life in accordance with one's values, with one of those values being doing one's part to not trash the planet we live on all in the name of mindless consumerism -- but is it just me, or has the popularity of this website brought an increasingly un-Mustachian element to these forums in the past year or so?  I hate to sound like that "get off my lawn" senior neighbor, but I've noticed a more crass, less civilized tone of late in many forum posts as well.

Have the MMM forums jumped the shark?

Yes.

Seriously, it's been a mind blowing level of fuckery and idiocy around here lately. :(


Kris

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Re: Crazy neighbor spending
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2015, 03:32:51 PM »
Now, I don't claim to be the most Mustachian guy around these parts, and I've gone on record many times as saying that I don't want to live the $25k lifestyle of MMM (god bless him), though I agree 100% with his call to live a more principled life in accordance with one's values, with one of those values being doing one's part to not trash the planet we live on all in the name of mindless consumerism -- but is it just me, or has the popularity of this website brought an increasingly un-Mustachian element to these forums in the past year or so?  I hate to sound like that "get off my lawn" senior neighbor, but I've noticed a more crass, less civilized tone of late in many forum posts as well.

Have the MMM forums jumped the shark?

Yes.

I would agree. And yes, I do see evidence of it often, including on this thread.