Author Topic: coffee  (Read 13010 times)

woodworker2010

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coffee
« on: February 14, 2012, 06:25:08 PM »
This one is obvious, yet the masses do it everyday and I shake my head: buy brewed coffee from anywhere for ridiculously high prices.  I recently heard or read the story of how Starbucks was conceived.  Create an environment in which people feel "fancy" and are thus willing to spend accordingly.  Maybe the ambiance in Starbucks is nice (I haven't been in years) but I see people spending $2/cup for crappy coffee at stands in my office building--no ambiance there.  We actually splurge on coffee--sort of.  My sister-in-law gives us delicious fair trade coffee beans from VT as gifts.  We save it for the weekends when coffee is best enjoyed in our house.  We get whatever is on sale the rest of the time, brew it here, and take it with us in a thermos to work (at work, coffee is mostly a utilitarian thing anyway). Even the good stuff is pennies per cup...

arebelspy

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Re: coffee
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 08:02:00 PM »
Agreed.

MMM has a great post on this (that Mrs.MM highlighted recently in her favorites post), called "The Coffee Machine that can Pay for a University Education."  It's located here: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/12/the-coffee-machine-that-can-pay-for-a-university-education/

It was one of the earlier posts, so it has less comments.

I save the most I can on coffee: I don't drink the stuff.  ;)
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jahoga

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Re: coffee
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 02:46:12 AM »
As a bit of a coffee nerd, I can't resist jumping in with a few more thoughts!

Using a French Press or Vietnamese drip coffee maker is about as simple as it gets.

Can you purchase coffee beans? Can you boil water?
Good, you're done.

For those who simply must have an espresso, latte, or cappuccino to start the day, you can get a superb entry level espresso machine(XP4020) and grinder from Krups for around $100 each. With 5 minutes of practice each day, you'll be making wonderful steamed milk for your lattes in no time.

Good coffee - really good coffee - sells for about $10-12 a pound at your favorite local coffeeshop.  There's just no excuse for spending that amount on coffee in 2 or 3 trips to Starbucks.

Brett

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Re: coffee
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 04:38:22 AM »
Coffee is definitely a weakness of mine too. When I was working during my gap year and then when I started university I would happily spend (waste) a ton of money on buying coffee out. I would buy a cup from the cafe near my job, then I would buy one or two cups whilst at uni, usually in part just so I could have an excuse for milling around the SU between classes. I made excuses for myself when I went into town each week with my friends, shopping to pass time (yet another ridiculous habit) and I would visit Starbucks at least once per visit reasoning that because I went so rarely (to my non-mustachian mind) it was an acceptable expense. When I think back now on how much I squandered it's obscene, especially as I think about how I could have cleared my overdrafts and be much better off right now.

Having been, a couple of short temporary gigs notwithstanding, unemployed since graduating I now feel guilty even buying coffee from the supermarket, despite it being super cheap and that it lasts a while as I drink (cheap) tea as well. It gets me wondering though, how much of our coffee buying is motivated by the addiction as opposed to, if there is any, necessity, and how much is genuinely for the enjoyment of the drink?

SailingStache

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Re: coffee
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 05:35:33 AM »
This is a great point. I walk by a Tim Hortons each morning on my way to work, and see dozens of people clamoring in line to get the daily fix, and handing over fistfulls of money over the year doing it.

Its an addiction I don't really understand, admittedly. I drank coffee only a couple of times in university, and didn't enjoy the feeling I got from it. (I would get quite jittery and clammy.) I now only drink decaf couple of times a year socially when at my parents place for dinner.

Fortunately for me, my fiancée is the same way. Our coffee maker is only there if others come over for a visit, and even then, we don't have any grounds or teabags, or anything. Should probably give it away to save on counter space!

DavidGalloway

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Re: coffee
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 08:10:59 AM »
Good points everyone!

Being that my day job provides pretty decent free coffee (Dunkin Donuts beans) during the week I get all my coffees from there. On the weekends I brew a pot of whatever my wife got cheaply with coupons.

That said, there are two times I occasionally visit coffee shops: when I'm working and need a place with a Wi-Fi connection away from the family or if I need to meet a friend somewhere on the other side of town from my house. In the first case, I can sometimes use the library's free Wi-Fi, but they block social networking sites that I need to publicize my blog posts and I always save the receipt to write off the expense for taxes. In the second paying $2-3 for coffee is much cheaper than going to a bar or restaurant. Don't get me wrong--I will only be found in a coffee shop maybe once or twice a month.

MacGyverIt

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Re: coffee
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 06:58:27 PM »
For those who like coffee at work, I highly recommend investing in an awesome Thermos (there are some ginormous ones out there for hard core coffee consumers).

I bought a used (eBay) Cuisinart coffee brewer with a timer+bean grinder so the timer goes off at o'dark thirty and coffee is ready to go when I am; pour it into the Thermos and off to work I go. My coffee stays hot in the Thermos from about 6:30am until after noon and with the convenience and efficiency of hot coffee available right at my desk.

The used coffee maker and new Thermos investments were paid for in no time. (Plus, I buy my coffee at the grocer when it's BOGO and keep it in the freezer for long term storage!) When I walk into work and see the LINES of people standing around waiting for their $2-5 dollar coffee I pity their consumerist hearts b/c I'm drinking up at my desk and working while they are wasting time and money standing in line!!

kolorado

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Re: coffee
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 06:31:49 AM »
I encourage everyone who loves good coffee to buy their beans from a local, independent roaster. My brother has had his own small business for 12+ years now and creates wonderful products! His, if anyone is interested.: http://harrysbeans.bigcartel.com/
We love coffee around here. Hubby finds that the caffeine helps his ADHD. And since we use a press, I can pour hot water over the grounds(1/3-1/2 original water)and get free decaf for me. I can't handle caffeine.
I think I've had about 5 coffees out in my entire life. It's just not worth $4 for one fancy cup out when that $4 buys four equivalent drinks made at home(and I'm talking the works at home!).

EnemyMind

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Re: coffee
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 06:40:28 AM »


Using a French Press or Vietnamese drip coffee maker is about as simple as it gets.


Vietnamese coffee is some excellent stuff. the potency with the condensed milk really does it.

I personally got into tea drinking, you can get everything you need to have a serious tea fetish at adiago teas, for not too terribly much and it lasts a fairly decent amount of time compared to coffee in my opinion. One thing I avoid is drinking anything with caffeine to early in the day, needing something as opposed to enjoying it seems to be a big factor in how much you spend.

DavidGalloway

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Re: coffee
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 08:16:25 AM »
Another tip with tea is to get loose (as opposed to bagged) tea from an ethnic grocery store. I enjoy Darjeeling tea, which is atrociously expensive from specialty tea shops, but I can get a pound of the loose stuff (Lipton brand) at Indian grocery stores for less than $10.

abitha

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Re: coffee
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 03:17:44 PM »
The coffee thing is crazy, I agree, but what really pisses me off is that a cup of tea from most of these places costs nearly as much! I can sort of understand paying £2-3 for a cup of some kind of fairly complicated coffee (it's still a rip-off, but it does take a certain amount of skill and effort to do it well), but why should I pay the same amount for a teabag, some hot water, and a splosh of milk? It's not even very good tea, usually - I can make it better at home.

EnemyMind

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Re: coffee
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 08:20:03 PM »
loose tea is definitely the way to go. slight bit more cleanup but it really is not much at all.

if you get to the right amount you like over the right amount of time with the right temp of water, you can have something that you will really appreciate as opposed to an overpriced burnt cup of coffee.

Brett

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Re: coffee
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 02:04:59 AM »
For those who like coffee at work, I highly recommend investing in an awesome Thermos (there are some ginormous ones out there for hard core coffee consumers).

I bought a used (eBay) Cuisinart coffee brewer with a timer+bean grinder so the timer goes off at o'dark thirty and coffee is ready to go when I am; pour it into the Thermos and off to work I go. My coffee stays hot in the Thermos from about 6:30am until after noon and with the convenience and efficiency of hot coffee available right at my desk.


A Thermos is definitely the way forward for coffee during the day. As for having coffee ready for when you wake up, I use pre ground coffee and have a cheap machine plus a super cheap timer plug. Suits me as it saved a bit on buying a fancier machine with a timer, plus I can use the plug for other things if needs be. Works great for phones that need charging during the night but that you don't want to leave on wasting power once they're charged.

The coffee thing is crazy, I agree, but what really pisses me off is that a cup of tea from most of these places costs nearly as much! I can sort of understand paying £2-3 for a cup of some kind of fairly complicated coffee (it's still a rip-off, but it does take a certain amount of skill and effort to do it well), but why should I pay the same amount for a teabag, some hot water, and a splosh of milk? It's not even very good tea, usually - I can make it better at home.

I know a few people who've just taken their own teabags about with them, depending on where you'll be you can usually get the hot water free or cheap.

DavidGalloway

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Re: coffee
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2012, 10:03:32 AM »
Or just wait to buy a coffee machine until the time is right. I wanted an automatic-drip machine with a timer and a built-in grinder so I could put whole beans in at night and wake up to ready coffee in the AM. Usually these machines go for $60-100, but I refused to pay more than $30. After six months of waiting and setting up Google alerts I hit a clearance on a discontinued Cuisinart that did everything I wanted for $27 (originally $120).  Why was it being discontinued? The new model had a stainless front panel instead of the black plastic front panel on mine.

Physics

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Re: coffee
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2012, 10:07:47 AM »
I'm a bit of a coffee snob and I'm not afraid to share that (I do in real life too).

I love a good strong coffee.  My gear is simply a nice Burr Grinder, a stainless steel French press, and handmade wood-fired ceramic mug made by my brother-in-law.  Nothing that can mechanically or electrically break (other than the grinder, I suppose, but it is high quality one).  If I have nice dark beans and hot water, I'm done!  Nice and simple.

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 09:46:42 PM »
Gameshow time!!
There are three regulars who come to my coffee shop at around the same time every single evening. Only one of them has a mustache (the hair-on-lip kind):
A gets a large Mocha ($5.09) every morning and every evening. In the evening sits down with his shiny netbook, and chills for about a couple of hours and surfs the net aimlessly.
B gets a large Chai with half & half ($4.86), often comes back for 2nds and 3rds, and alternates between playing with his iPad and bothering other customers.
C has his own cup ($0.10 discount), gets an extra small decaf coffee ($1.56 with discount), and has an old beatup laptop. When he became a regular, he canceled his high-speed internet connection to use the wifi at our shop for free ($48/month savings)

Any takers? :)

Danielle

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Re: coffee
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 03:24:40 PM »
C has his own cup ($0.10 discount), gets an extra small decaf coffee ($1.56 with discount), and has an old beatup laptop. When he became a regular, he canceled his high-speed internet connection to use the wifi at our shop for free ($48/month savings)

I've always wondered if baristas secretly hate these people.  I have this same tactic (though I splurge for regular with a flavor shot sometimes) when I need to "get away" from my home office, and sometimes I feel bad for setting up shop for 4-5+ hours while paying less than $2 for it.  Is there an accepted frequency for purchases?

I ask because I used to work in retail and the mustachians who came in with their free coupons and didn't buy anything else were the bane of the store's metrics...I'm sensitive to these sorts of things :P

Dee

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Re: coffee
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2012, 07:31:15 PM »
Thanks for inspiring me, Mustachian community. When I read this thread a week or so ago, I was getting all defensive in my head and trying to explain/justify the daily trip to the coffee shop. And I did actually have a justification at the time, which involved taking the best opportunity to get to know new colleagues and fit into a team at work while I was away from my permanent job.

But I was going back to my regular job last week, so that whole rationale no longer worked. The coffee thread triggered me to actually plan a change in my coffee buying. When I started back at my permanent job, I showed up with a coffee maker (bought new but on sale for $8 at Wal Mart), cheap ground coffee ($4 for... 300 grams?), coffee filters, sweetener and soy milk.

 I would have spent at least $8 buying coffee last week alone, so I've already recouped the cost of the coffee maker. Meanwhile, I've barely made a dent in any of my supplies. And my enjoyment of the coffee is about the same as it would be going to the coffee shop.

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2012, 09:30:10 PM »
I've always wondered if baristas secretly hate these people.  I have this same tactic (though I splurge for regular with a flavor shot sometimes) when I need to "get away" from my home office, and sometimes I feel bad for setting up shop for 4-5+ hours while paying less than $2 for it.  Is there an accepted frequency for purchases?

It's more a question of whether you win the favor of the baristas. The guy in option C contributes to the tip jar, A and B don't, even though we have to handcraft their drinks, and we just pour his into a cup. We actually keep C's cup in the store for him, because we like him. If you're in a place that gives out free refills, go ahead and take advantage of them, but try to remember that "free"/="tip exempt." If you're not, and you only want a $2 coffee and a place to sit, go for it. We're not waiters, so we're not worried about filling your seat. So long as you don't talk our ears off, mistreat us, or do annoying things in the cafe (ie, taking business calls for 4 hours strait, or bothering the other customers), we'll generally leave you to your own devices until about 5 minutes before close. We'd probably rather have you occupying the seats than some of the alternatives :).

chrissyo

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Re: coffee
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2012, 10:40:48 PM »
Gameshow time!!
There are three regulars who come to my coffee shop at around the same time every single evening. [...]
C has his own cup ($0.10 discount), gets an extra small decaf coffee ($1.56 with discount), and has an old beatup laptop. When he became a regular, he canceled his high-speed internet connection to use the wifi at our shop for free ($48/month savings)

Any takers? :)

I'm similar to this guy. I go to Starbucks several days a week, and spend £1.25 for a drip with cream after own cup discount. I'm 'entitled' to a refill, too, but found it was seriously affecting my sleep even though my coffee/lunch break is around 12-1pm and I sleep around 10 or 11pm. DH does the same routine, too. Because we bring our own from home every day, we found we would work through lunch without a mental break from work or a physical break from our desks/colleagues. We're happy to pay the cost of our respective coffees, because it is an incentive to leave the office and read for an hour. When one or both of us stops working, this cost would obviously disappear, as we'd be happy to sit and read at home while drinking our usual brewed coffees for next to free (which we currently do at the weekend).

James

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Re: coffee
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2012, 10:05:12 AM »
Sometimes when I get off work and my wife happens to be in town, we will meet at the coffee shop just to catch up.  I'll spend the ridiculous sum of $2 for a regular coffee with sugar and cream, she will get some tea, and we will sit and chat.  It's well worth it, but I can't imagine making a habit of even that small expenditure.  Even on my trip to Guatemala last week I had a hard time spending $3 for coffee at the airport, but the 5 pounds of coffee I brought back from Guatemala will make lots of home brew in the next few months...  :)

adam

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Re: coffee
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2012, 10:22:34 AM »
I used to make my coffee at home and bring it to work in a thermos.  Then I got one of those single cup machines for christmas (I specifically picked out an unpopular $25 senseo machine, not a $100+ keurig).  I ordered a bunch of pods on amazon shortly thereafter and am still working through them. 

So while I don't go to the coffee shop, I think this Senseo might cost me more in the long run than the old thermos method.  On the other hand, I use it for tea as well, and I can use pretty much any tea bag instead of only the pods.

Matt K

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Re: coffee
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2012, 11:11:09 AM »
I used to make my coffee at home and bring it to work in a thermos.  Then I got one of those single cup machines for christmas (I specifically picked out an unpopular $25 senseo machine, not a $100+ keurig).  I ordered a bunch of pods on amazon shortly thereafter and am still working through them. 

So while I don't go to the coffee shop, I think this Senseo might cost me more in the long run than the old thermos method.  On the other hand, I use it for tea as well, and I can use pretty much any tea bag instead of only the pods.

I'm told there are ways you can pack your own pods for these things. I don't know how it works exactly, but if you could prepare a buch of pods in advance (so you don't lose the convienence factor) it could probably save you a fair bit.

Aha, the wonders of google: http://www.amazon.com/ekobrew-Refillable-Keurig-Brewers-1-Count/dp/B0051SU0OW/ref=acc_glance_gro_ai_ps_t_1

adam

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Re: coffee
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2012, 11:37:48 AM »

orangeclocker

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Re: coffee
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2012, 12:30:05 PM »
If you really like coffee and want to save money, just roast your own beans and brew them using a french press. High quality low cost results!  http://www.sweetmarias.com/eds.article.php

tehnai

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Re: coffee
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2012, 01:28:50 PM »
I have to say, my French Press changed my life. I was blown away by how much better coffee tasted. Plus, no need to buy filters!

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2012, 11:14:18 PM »
I have to say, my French Press changed my life. I was blown away by how much better coffee tasted. Plus, no need to buy filters!

True story.

fruplicity

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Re: coffee
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2012, 02:46:22 PM »
I also love coffee but have never been a regular at the coffee shop. I honestly do not understand people who drop the money every single day on this. But one of my coworkers thought a $40 starbucks gift card was exactly what I needed (maybe she felt bad for me bringing my own mug from home every day)... so of course now I'll visit for a little while. :)

I read an article on the Keurig machines a while ago, thinking smugly to myself, "Ha I'll never buy one of these wasteful, expensive contraptions, I'm fine with  my plain old coffee pot for now, with a possible upgrade to a fancy espresso machine someday". Then... our (very generous) relative got us a Keurig for Christmas! So.... we are hooked. Right away I insisted we buy a reusable k-cup but I'm sad to say I've barely used it because our relative also got us 4 boxes of k-cups that we've almost gotten through at this point. I will try my best to start using it though.

Mrs MM

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Re: coffee
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2012, 10:09:49 AM »
I have to say, my French Press changed my life. I was blown away by how much better coffee tasted. Plus, no need to buy filters!

True story.

This is interesting to me... we use our french press when we camp, and we also went through a period of using it at home, but I don't find the taste to be superior at all.  I actually don't like it that much.  Maybe we're doing something wrong?

Of course, we have our fancy latte-making machine + MMM the barista to compete with, so maybe that's the problem...

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2012, 05:27:13 PM »
I have to say, my French Press changed my life. I was blown away by how much better coffee tasted. Plus, no need to buy filters!

True story.

This is interesting to me... we use our french press when we camp, and we also went through a period of using it at home, but I don't find the taste to be superior at all.  I actually don't like it that much.  Maybe we're doing something wrong?

Of course, we have our fancy latte-making machine + MMM the barista to compete with, so maybe that's the problem...

In terms of brewing a pot of coffee, my opinion is that a French Press yields the best flavor when done right (and a lot of coffee snobs affirm this opinion)- I doubt you're doing it wrong, but just in caseL grind the coffee as coarsely as possible, heat the press (fill with hot water, then dump out), put in grinds, fill with hot water, then press down after 4 minutes. It's a pretty simple formula.

Now, if you're used to handcrafted lattes, a pot of coffee is going to be a poor replacement, in the same manner that a loaf of fresh bread is not a great replacement for pizza. It's not so much a problem with the coffee, as it is that what you like is something different, that has coffee as a base flavor. Sure, you could pour a bunch of milk into it, but that will make it as much a latte as dunking bread in sauce and scattering some cheese on it makes it a pizza.

Physics

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Re: coffee
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2012, 05:40:52 PM »
Yeah the most common way of making bad french press is over-grinding. 

The french press allows a lot of coffee, oils included, to permeate the water, so if you over-do the grind (say to the same amount you would grind for a standard drip brew) you risk too much of the bitter oils transferring, as well as allowing some of the smaller grinds to get through and around the metal filter.

That said, a properly done french press is very easy to get good at, and makes for a fantastic and frugal way to enjoy coffee.

JJ

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Re: coffee
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2012, 08:36:26 PM »
Letting the water cool a couple of degrees before adding to the french press helps avoid burning the coffee - this keeps it tasting smoother. 93-94 centigrade good, 98+ bad.  I'm impatient to get it brewing so I pour the freshly boiled water straight in, but from a height so it cools slightly on its way down.  Not the safest approach maybe, but as a dedicated coffee snob the odd minor scalding is ok to get a consistently good coffee.  Of course, if you want to save a few milli-cents you could try timing when you switch the kettle off so it hasn't _quite_ boiled. 

I do this with tea anyway, as fully boiled water doesn't make as good tea as water that has not quite boiled.  Something to do with the boiling driving off the dissolved oxygen in the water I believe.

Mr Mark

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Re: coffee
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »
I find the costco signature brand fair trade coffee 100% Arabica is excellent. 2.5lb for $13 or so?

Prefer a drip/filter myself, but compared to Starbuck$...

sol

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Re: coffee
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2012, 10:06:39 AM »
I prefer to not spend any of my hard-earned money on dependency-forming drugs.

Which is not to say I don't support your right to shoot up whenever you like.

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2012, 10:33:11 AM »
I prefer to not spend any of my hard-earned money on dependency-forming drugs.

Which is not to say I don't support your right to shoot up whenever you like.

Allegedly dependency-forming. Several medical journals have published studies which call this into question. Yes, there are "withdrawal" symptoms for approx. 48 hours after a major reduction in caffeine consumption, but they are generally no worse than giving up anything else, and there are other, more healthy things, which have worse symptoms upon giving them up. For instance, switching from an omnivorous diet to a vegan one (or vice versa) can result in several weeks of digestive discomfort which far surpasses the mild headache you might get from giving up caffeine. Most medical professionals agree that caffeine does not cause compulsive use, and any withdrawal symptoms are minor enough as to not deter quitting if someone wishes to do so.

sol

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Re: coffee
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2012, 11:30:23 AM »
withdrawal symptoms are minor enough as to not deter quitting if someone wishes to do so.

"I can quit whenever I want" isn't exactly an uncommon refrain from addicts.

My own experiences with regular and recurring high doses of caffeine are quite contrary to your suggestion that withdrawals are easy.  If anyone else here has gone from three+ cups first thing every morning to zero cold turkey and found the process easy, I would welcome their input.

Like I said, I will continue to defend your right to abuse your body in whatever way you choose.  It's yours, after all.  This particular vice, though, isn't for me.

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2012, 11:53:59 AM »
withdrawal symptoms are minor enough as to not deter quitting if someone wishes to do so.

"I can quit whenever I want" isn't exactly an uncommon refrain from addicts.
Right, but when a crack addict or a heroine addict says that, medical professionals respond "no, you can't, because you're addicted." In contrast, medical professionals have not found this to be true of caffeine. I'm not talking about allowing individuals to define whether or not they're addicted, but rather appealing to the scientific evidence which has repeatedly demonstrated caffeine to be a non-addictive substance.

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My own experiences with regular and recurring high doses of caffeine are quite contrary to your suggestion that withdrawals are easy.  If anyone else here has gone from three+ cups first thing every morning to zero cold turkey and found the process easy, I would welcome their input.
I do it on an annual basis. My caffeine intake levels would probably put me in the top 5% more often than not, because the things I like to drink tend to contain caffeine, especially now that I work in an environment where it's our main commodity, and I get free drinks. But I usually drop caffeinated beverages for lent, and other than a slight headache on day one, sometimes day 2, it's not a problem. And I don't take otc medicine, so I'm not just masking the pain until it goes away. I've always had more negative side effects from giving up meat for 47 days than I have from giving up caffeine.

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Like I said, I will continue to defend your right to abuse your body in whatever way you choose.  It's yours, after all.  This particular vice, though, isn't for me.

I'm not telling you to start drinking coffee/caffeine again, just saying that it's a non-addictive substance, and using terms like "abuse your body" is misleading, as mounting medical evidence has demonstrated.

If you want to not drink caffeine, go for it, but entering a thread about a drink which is a source of caffeine, telling the participants that they are abusing their bodies, and drawing an indirect parallel to heroine, really doesn't come across that well.

sol

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Re: coffee
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2012, 12:58:44 PM »
things I like to drink tend to contain caffeine, especially now that I work in an environment where it's our main commodity, and I get free drinks.

Wait, you work for the caffeine industry?  Seriously?

Isn't that like taking medical advice from someone who works for the tobacco industry?  They insisted for years that their product was safe, common experience to the contrary.

I concede that I use inflammatory language when talking about caffeine and other socially acceptable drugs, but that does not change the fact that they are drugs, and they do affect your body.  My personal choice is to try to live as free of such outside influences as possible, but I recognize that my choice is not appropriate for everyone.

On this very topic, there are some interesting ideas floating around the interweb that stimulants like caffeine and nicotine became socially acceptable in industrial America because they increased productivity, and thus our corporate overlords allowed or encouraged them.  Depressants or relaxants, on the other hand, were actively discouraged or criminalized because they made people content and happy, rather than ambitious and fired up.  Hence caffeine is available in every office break room, while marijuana is still classified as a Schedule 1 drug, with no recognized medical purpose and a high potential for addiction.  Just a theory.

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2012, 01:47:49 PM »

Wait, you work for the caffeine industry?  Seriously?

Isn't that like taking medical advice from someone who works for the tobacco industry?  They insisted for years that their product was safe, common experience to the contrary.
This is a non-sequitor. Because one group of individuals did something unethical, does not mean that others in a similar situation will also make unethical choices. Also, There are plenty of concrete scientific studies done by impartial parties to support my claim. I'm not talking about a "Folgers University for Caffeine Knowledge" or something. See for example:
http://www.webmd.com/balance/caffeine-myths-and-facts
Other scientific studies by other impartial parties support your claim. For instance:
http://www.caffeinedependence.org/caffeine_dependence.html#addiction (the website isn't impartial, but the study referenced appears to be)
It's disputed territory. The addictive quality of Cigarettes is only disputed by the tobacco industry. The addictive quality of caffeine is disputed by 3rd party scientists, with no consensus being reached.


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I concede that I use inflammatory language when talking about caffeine and other socially acceptable drugs, but that does not change the fact that they are drugs, and they do affect your body.
Except that it is disputed as to whether caffeine is a drug, so that's not a fact. Does caffeine affect your body? Yes. Everything you put in your body affects it. Caffeine has a stimulating effect, but then the natural sugars in an apple can act as stimulants. Does caffeine qualify as a drug? That's open for debate, and saying that one position or another is a "fact" is overstating a claim.

I've read your posts on other threads. They're reasonable, and I generally agree with them. But here you're taking a personal opinion, based on personal experience, and assuming that it is a fact which is supported by general evidence. It's not. It's disputed territory in the scientific community, and the ongoing comparison to non-disputed things like cigarettes and heroine is unnecessary and inflammatory- an approach which you continued to use immediately after conceding that you were doing so. There's a thread on homebrewing-- I don't think anybody is going to dispute that alcohol is a drug, and can be addicting. Yet no non-drinkers have, as of yet, felt the need to voice their anti-alcohol sentiments. So why come to a thread about coffee, compare its participants to heroine addicts, and then compare me to a tobacconist when I dispute your claim?

sol

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Re: coffee
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2012, 02:05:02 PM »
This is a non-sequitor.

I'm not so sure.  If you're suggesting that caffeine is not addicitive or not a drug (!), I think it only fair for people to know that you have a personal financial interest in making such statements.

Besides, I'm all for personal use of drugs, addictive and otherwise, if that is a person's choice.  It's just not mine.

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It's disputed territory in the scientific community

I'm comfortable not pursuing this debate any farther, because I think we are going to disagree on this point in a non-productive way.  Sowing the seeds of doubt is strategy number one for any industry under siege.  Look at tobacco (cancer), or oil companies (environment), or fast food (obesity).  They all want people to believe the science is unsettled, and they can all find cases to support their view.  In some cases they even have good points.

I will leave it up to individuals to decide what is best for them. 

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Yet no non-drinkers have, as of yet, felt the need to voice their anti-alcohol sentiments. So why come to a thread about coffee, compare its participants to heroine addicts, and then compare me to a tobacconist when I dispute your claim?

Because trolling is fun?

I happen to have a strong personal opinion about the impacts to a person's physical and financial health that result from purchasing brain-altering chemicals (I see caffeine and alcohol is roughly analogous in this department).  A relatively anonymous internet forum provides me an opportunity to present my opinions to strangers.  I'm sorry I seem to have touched a nerve with someone, but perhaps I should have foreseen that any challenge to an existing industry is going to hit somebody in the pocketbook, and thus engender stronger emotional reactions than might otherwise have been expected.

In the meantime, I wish you all the luck in the world in achieving FI by selling caffeinated beverages to people.  Even for someone like me who disapproves, I can think of far worse ways to make a living.

shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2012, 02:18:42 PM »
In the meantime, I wish you all the luck in the world in achieving FI by selling caffeinated beverages to people.  Even for someone like me who disapproves, I can think of far worse ways to make a living.

For the Record, caffeinated beverages are not my means to achieving FI. I'm an hourly wageslave at a coffee shop, have been for around 8 months as I finish my Masters degree, and am actively looking for a "big boy job" so I can start working toward FI. I took the job at the coffee shop because I like coffee, not the other way around, and I get paid the same crappy wage whether I sell 500 drinks, or 0.

sol

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Re: coffee
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2012, 02:25:30 PM »
caffeinated beverages are not my means to achieving FI. I'm an hourly wageslave at a coffee shop

Awww man, here I was thinking you were in multilevel marketing of energy drinks or something.

Now I'm disappointed I don't have a reason to think you're evil.  Way to shrink my outgroup.

Physics

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Re: coffee
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2012, 03:55:30 PM »

I'm sorry I seem to have touched a nerve with someone,

Because trolling is fun?

Please participate constructively or don't.  "Trolling for fun" can be taken elsewhere.  Like a different forum.

sol

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Re: coffee
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2012, 05:52:34 PM »
Because trolling is fun?

Please participate constructively or don't.  "Trolling for fun" can be taken elsewhere.  Like a different forum.

You no laugh my little joke?

Not trolling, just expressing a difference of opinion.  In a thread about how to lower your cable bill, someone said "drop cable!" and everyone applauds.  In a thread about reducing vehicle expenses, someone said "ride your bike instead!" and everyone applauds.  In a thread about how to get cheap coffee, someone said "quit drinking coffee!" and suddenly everyone is all offended?

Aside from the obvious financial benefits of not paying for daily caffeinated beverages of any sort, I happen to think there are good ethical and fitness reasons for it, too, much as there are for biking and giving up tv.  Please don't confuse my advocacy of such changes with judgment of those who continue their unmustachian ways.

Your life is yours to live, and your financial independence will arrive when you have worked long enough to pay for the lifestyle you choose.  To me, a daily cup of coffee is not worth a single extra day in a cubicle farm.

arebelspy

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Re: coffee
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2012, 06:50:18 PM »
sol: I mentioned don't drink it in the first comment to the thread.

I don't see anything wrong with what you said here, but if you do make a "trolling" comment, even as a joke, then people tend to read your posts with that shade filtering their view.  Tone is hard enough to read on the internet.

That being said, a major reason I (and others, I'd imagine) come here is for a good kick in the complainypants, so controversial and/or antagonistic and/or devil's advocate type posts are great, IMO.  Makes us think and reconsider what we hold to be true. 
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shedinator

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Re: coffee
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2012, 09:24:02 PM »
Not trolling, just expressing a difference of opinion.  In a thread about how to lower your cable bill, someone said "drop cable!" and everyone applauds.  In a thread about reducing vehicle expenses, someone said "ride your bike instead!" and everyone applauds.  In a thread about how to get cheap coffee, someone said "quit drinking coffee!" and suddenly everyone is all offended?

It's not the opinion, it's how you chose to say it. Arebelspy suggested "don't drink coffee" pretty early on in the conversation. But he didn't need to equate coffee drinkers to drug addicts to get the point across. You did, and when I challenged the underlying assumption, you subsequently compared me to the unethical scientists who the tobacco companies paid to muddy the waters, and then made the remark that "trolling is fun." You may have meant any or all of those things in good fun, but it really didn't come across that way. I don't doubt that you weren't trying to be offensive, but some of your comments were, and I was trying to point that out to you...