Author Topic: Clown Car Rant!  (Read 8432 times)

ducky19

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Clown Car Rant!
« on: November 20, 2017, 10:26:44 AM »
Sorry, but I've just got to get this off of my chest.

I live in a LCOL area with only a couple of big corporate companies that pay pretty decent, so I find it absurd the number of ridiculously expensive clown cars I see in the area! Saw a brand new Porsche Cayenne Turbo the other day, starting at $116,500. Then two days ago, saw a Porsche Panamera GTS, starting at $113,500. Countless new Escalades ($73,395), a Tesla Model X 75D ($79,500) and a 2017 Jaguar F-Type R ($87,899) all make me wonder, who in the world could possibly afford these vehicles? The payments would be more than the mortgage on our home and our rental property combined! Even if I could convince myself that I could afford one (I could probably swing the payment if forced to), I don't understand wanting to drive around in that much of my hard earned money! For reference, I drive a 2007 Pontiac Vibe that I absolutely love to drive and hope to be driving in 10 years when I FIRE. Gah!!! So much insanity!!!

ixtap

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 10:39:59 AM »
And here I put a lot of thought in choosing between the Honda Fit and the Honda Insight...8 years ago.

Roe

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2017, 11:58:12 AM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

FINate

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 11:59:59 AM »
Most people are functionally illiterate in math -- even simple things like fractions, exponents and percentages. This includes many otherwise smart people with university degrees. These folks often manage and think about their finances using a cash basis accounting model (all they care about is cash on hand - debt, interest rates, ROI...doesn't matter to them). This also means many people have little analytical ability. Try asking someone with a non-STEM degree to compare TCO for two vehicles. Some people will do fine, but it's sad how many grads have no concept of how to approach the problem.

All this to say: Lots of people buy cars based on the payments, what they can "afford" each month. You should be able to look up an income distribution for your area. In all likelihood you'll find a "long tail" to the right indicating that some percentage of people make $100k or $200k or more. In a LCOL area this means they have lots of disposable income, so they can easily make the payments. The thought that they've sunk $100k into a rapidly depreciating asset likely hasn't crossed their mind. Some would probably even tell you it's an "investment." 


paddedhat

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 12:39:41 PM »
IMHO, FINate is crediting far more analytical skill and deep thought to the situation than actually exists. Many entire groups of high wage earners are famous for lifestyle inflation, an "I EARNED this" mentality, and spending at least 100% of their salary on keeping up with their peers. Doctors are a great example. I think it's a pretty simple part of human nature. The thinking is limited to...........I bust my ass to get to this point, and as a reward receive a very high salary. I like showy/performance/badge envy cars, and I bought one. As long as they keep the bills paid, find personal satisfaction in operating and/or being seen in the vehicle, and the friends, relatives, co-workers and neighbors are impressed, they have accomplished their goal.  Is it an incredibly stupid thing to do to your financial future? Absolutely! Do they care? Hell no. They see this gravy train going on forever, and have no interest in jumping off.

FINate

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 01:39:33 PM »
I'm sure the "I EARNED this" mentality is rampant. I just think the lack of analytical ability is a larger factor. Car dealerships almost always try to shift the focus away from price to monthly payments because it usually works. Most people have no concept of what they actually paid for their car, especially after extended warranties, and aftermarket upholstery and paint treatments.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 02:34:03 PM »
my 2˘:
"I earned this" makes people consider ridiculous purchases (impulse)
A complete lack of financial analytical skills prevents them from realizing "actually, this is a really dumb idea" (no restraint)

Marketing pushes both angles.

Point to both paddedhat and FINate (in the scoring system that I just made up).

ducky19

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 03:13:14 PM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

Rollin

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 03:22:10 PM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

Cool. Though not hardly one place in this county that you could do that legally.I have lost being impressed over the years on these things, as I see them sitting in bumper to bumper traffic daily. Wow, I bet that car is fast - for a few seconds after the light turns green and they happen to be at the front of the line.

My daughter went to college without a car, but her roommate was bought a Cayenne. They have everything they need on campus or within walking distance. If they want to go to the beach they can take good transit (and not pay for parking). I hope my daughter sees the foolishness in that car and doesn't feel inadequate for not having one.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 03:48:05 PM by Rollin »

libertarian4321

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 03:43:07 PM »
a Tesla Model X 75D ($79,500)

We almost bought a Tesla Model S for roughly the same price, but my wife decided it was too big, so we put in a down payment on a smaller Tesla Model 3 instead. 

We would have paid cash for it, however, so no "payments."

Cars aren't my thing.  I'm perfectly happy with my ancient Chevy Silverado, because it runs just fine. 

But cars are my (otherwise frugal) wife's one "splurge."  So if she wants to drop $80k on a Tesla, it doesn't bother me at all.

Now if she decides to order the new Tesla Roadster 2020 for $250k (0-60 in 1.9 seconds), we'll have to talk. :)



« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 03:45:02 PM by libertarian4321 »

Travis

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 03:47:03 PM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

And will spend most of its life in commuting traffic.  I love walking the three blocks from my office to the light rail watching these cars unnecessarily loudly go vroom! and speed through downtown at a whopping 25mph at the end of the day.  I want to catch up to them on foot at the next stoplight and ask if the exhilaration of the chase was everything they hoped it would be.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 04:54:10 PM »

Now if she decides to order the new Tesla Roadster 2020 for $250k (0-60 in 1.9 seconds), we'll have to talk. :)

I haven't heard, but I'm hoping Tesla uses all those self-driving sensors to prevent bumbling idiots from mashing down the accelerator and smashing into the cyclist still crossing the street? 
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

Will the car prevent such idiocy (and does the P90, for that matter?)

Lanthiriel

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 05:53:08 PM »
I'm sure the "I EARNED this" mentality is rampant. I just think the lack of analytical ability is a larger factor. Car dealerships almost always try to shift the focus away from price to monthly payments because it usually works. Most people have no concept of what they actually paid for their car, especially after extended warranties, and aftermarket upholstery and paint treatments.

I had a recent "I EARNED this" moment when I wanted to upgrade my 2005 Ford Escape to... a 2017 Kia Soul base model. I did a ton of research and waited until the end of the month, played a couple of dealerships against each other, and found the best place with the best price. I argued that a $10k increase for a much more comfortable car ($14k on special minus the $4k I could get for my Escape in a private party scale) with a 10-15 MPG improvement was worth it. My husband's response to all this: don't be those people. And he's right. I can probably spend $1000 over the next five years and still not drive my Escape into the ground given my 3-mile commute to work. I momentarily let the shiny newness blind me. But at least I would have made a $10k mistake. I imagine that turning either of these cars back into the dealership would cost the drivers of those Porsches double that even if they only bought them yesterday.

Optimiser

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 05:59:42 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).

ducky19

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 06:03:16 PM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

And will spend most of its life in commuting traffic.  I love walking the three blocks from my office to the light rail watching these cars unnecessarily loudly go vroom! and speed through downtown at a whopping 25mph at the end of the day.  I want to catch up to them on foot at the next stoplight and ask if the exhilaration of the chase was everything they hoped it would be.

Where I'm at, we don't have traffic like you're thinking of. Midwest, small city with LOTS of open countryside and interstate that's not congested. I just threw the 3.8 second 0-60 time out there for grins and giggles. Just because they can drive it that fast here doesn't mean it's money well spent.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2017, 06:32:09 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

JLee

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2017, 06:43:41 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

I think you're dramatically overestimating the number of people who leave every traffic light with their foot to the floor.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2017, 07:24:30 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

I think you're dramatically overestimating the number of people who leave every traffic light with their foot to the floor.
Well, of course almost no one does it in a Kia Venga - i mean, what would be the point?
But the whole point of having that head-snapping acceleration is to show it off at stoplights.  Will every Tesla Roadster owner do it at every stoplight?  no, of course not.  But I'd bet dollars to donuts most of them do it at least a few times to show off.

JLee

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2017, 07:27:00 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

I think you're dramatically overestimating the number of people who leave every traffic light with their foot to the floor.
Well, of course almost no one does it in a Kia Venga - i mean, what would be the point?
But the whole point of having that head-snapping acceleration is to show it off at stoplights.  Will every Tesla Roadster owner do it at every stoplight?  no, of course not.  But I'd bet dollars to donuts most of them do it at least a few times to show off.

A general observation I've picked up is that the faster the car that someone has, the less likely they are to drive like an idiot.  I'm curious if others have that impression as well, or if I just see different stuff.

RWD

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2017, 07:48:22 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

I think you're dramatically overestimating the number of people who leave every traffic light with their foot to the floor.
Well, of course almost no one does it in a Kia Venga - i mean, what would be the point?
But the whole point of having that head-snapping acceleration is to show it off at stoplights.  Will every Tesla Roadster owner do it at every stoplight?  no, of course not.  But I'd bet dollars to donuts most of them do it at least a few times to show off.

A general observation I've picked up is that the faster the car that someone has, the less likely they are to drive like an idiot.  I'm curious if others have that impression as well, or if I just see different stuff.

Yep, I've noticed this as well. Nothing to prove and a sporty car is more likely to stand out to a police officer.

Tesla actually introduced a "Chill" mode to keep from accelerating too fast:
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-introduces-chill-mode-so-owners-can-tone-down-acc-1820298440

JLee

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2017, 08:16:34 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

I think you're dramatically overestimating the number of people who leave every traffic light with their foot to the floor.
Well, of course almost no one does it in a Kia Venga - i mean, what would be the point?
But the whole point of having that head-snapping acceleration is to show it off at stoplights.  Will every Tesla Roadster owner do it at every stoplight?  no, of course not.  But I'd bet dollars to donuts most of them do it at least a few times to show off.

A general observation I've picked up is that the faster the car that someone has, the less likely they are to drive like an idiot.  I'm curious if others have that impression as well, or if I just see different stuff.

Yep, I've noticed this as well. Nothing to prove and a sporty car is more likely to stand out to a police officer.

Tesla actually introduced a "Chill" mode to keep from accelerating too fast:
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-introduces-chill-mode-so-owners-can-tone-down-acc-1820298440

My MR2 has gone from ~250whp to 430whp over the last 9 years and I've noticed that I drive slower than I used to. Unsure if it's due to age/maturity or something else, but I'm a dramatically more responsible driver now than I was a couple hundred horsepower ago.

ysette9

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2017, 08:29:46 PM »
I live in Tesla central and haven’t noticed one leaping out of an intersection at a green light. Mostly they seem to be a more popular alternative to the Porsche sedans, the Lamborginis, the Maseratis, and so forth. When your house is $5-8M, what is $100k for a car? At least you don’t have to fill up a tank of premium at 15 mi/gal.

mwulff

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2017, 11:56:50 PM »
As a tesla owner I concur on the notion that you don't tend to drive it like a maniac. The fact is that even the smallest model has such high torque that a full-throttle launch becomes really uncomfortable.

You might do it when demonstrating the car, but then you don't tend to floor it inside a city. We have country roads for demonstrations.

But in everyday driving you just drive gently because it's way more comfortable, it leaves room to enjoy the smoothness of the ride. You still leave old fashioned ICE cars in the dust even in "comfort mode", but that's just because the ancient technology in them have no torque at all.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2017, 05:22:43 AM »
points taken, but the quesiton remains.  anyone have any actual info on the matter?

MightyAl

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 05:37:59 AM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

I think you're dramatically overestimating the number of people who leave every traffic light with their foot to the floor.
Well, of course almost no one does it in a Kia Venga - i mean, what would be the point?
But the whole point of having that head-snapping acceleration is to show it off at stoplights.  Will every Tesla Roadster owner do it at every stoplight?  no, of course not.  But I'd bet dollars to donuts most of them do it at least a few times to show off.

A general observation I've picked up is that the faster the car that someone has, the less likely they are to drive like an idiot.  I'm curious if others have that impression as well, or if I just see different stuff.

Yep, I've noticed this as well. Nothing to prove and a sporty car is more likely to stand out to a police officer.

Tesla actually introduced a "Chill" mode to keep from accelerating too fast:
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-introduces-chill-mode-so-owners-can-tone-down-acc-1820298440

My MR2 has gone from ~250whp to 430whp over the last 9 years and I've noticed that I drive slower than I used to. Unsure if it's due to age/maturity or something else, but I'm a dramatically more responsible driver now than I was a couple hundred horsepower ago.

I would say it is due to the short wheel base...

SeaEhm

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2017, 05:10:25 PM »
Person I know who bought a $100,000 Porsche Cayenne currently makes over $40k per month in retirement. 

If you enjoy driving your pontiac vibe, then great.  Some people like eating rice with soy sauce and egg for dinner too.  That doesn't mean it's widely accepted/acceptable and "for everyone"

Are there people who stretch way too far to afford such luxurious cars? Yes.  Are there people who could truly afford them? Yes.   Some people don't care about "FIRE" and more often than not, you don't know who is FI.

I know people who have been FI for decades who still continue to work stressful jobs.  People are different.  Shaming them doesn't earn a feather for your cap or justify driving X over Y.

ACyclist

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2017, 05:15:45 PM »
I think some people just believe that they can't save enough to retire, and then waste years doing the same ol thing.  We have been there for 10+ years.  We could have saved more money, but we didn't. 

The numbers are daunting, until you realize that it can be done. 

Turnbull

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2017, 06:51:51 PM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

Cool. Though not hardly one place in this county that you could do that legally.

Why would very quickly accelerating to 60 be illegal? Why do you think there's nowhere in this big wide open country that you could do it legally? Have you ever driven across Kansas or numerous other states I could mention?

Indexer

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2017, 08:54:13 PM »
The area I drive through to get to work is full of those Porsche clown cars. I see those, Audis, Mercedes AMGs, BMW M_s, Teslas, Land Rovers... 

It's great incentive for me to keep driving a cheap car. If I spent a ton of money I would only be average, but by spending nothing I get to drive a car that is 'exotic.' 

JLee

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2017, 08:57:59 PM »
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

This is true, but any car is capable of driving through an intersection at 60mph (as long as they weren't going 0 2 seconds earlier).
To be more clear, what worries me is someone trying to floor it at an intersection with that amount of acceleration.  Imagine someone waiting for the light to turn green and then gunning it.  Now imagine another car or a cyclist coming from the other direction trying to stretch that yellow light.  If you're in a generic car that does 0-60 in 7 seconds there's time to react before you get halfway through the intersection (the point where you'd encounter cross-traffic).  But not in a tesla super-roadster.  Hence my question - does the on-board tech prevent such mishaps?

I think you're dramatically overestimating the number of people who leave every traffic light with their foot to the floor.
Well, of course almost no one does it in a Kia Venga - i mean, what would be the point?
But the whole point of having that head-snapping acceleration is to show it off at stoplights.  Will every Tesla Roadster owner do it at every stoplight?  no, of course not.  But I'd bet dollars to donuts most of them do it at least a few times to show off.

A general observation I've picked up is that the faster the car that someone has, the less likely they are to drive like an idiot.  I'm curious if others have that impression as well, or if I just see different stuff.

Yep, I've noticed this as well. Nothing to prove and a sporty car is more likely to stand out to a police officer.

Tesla actually introduced a "Chill" mode to keep from accelerating too fast:
https://jalopnik.com/tesla-introduces-chill-mode-so-owners-can-tone-down-acc-1820298440

My MR2 has gone from ~250whp to 430whp over the last 9 years and I've noticed that I drive slower than I used to. Unsure if it's due to age/maturity or something else, but I'm a dramatically more responsible driver now than I was a couple hundred horsepower ago.

I would say it is due to the short wheel base...

I have excellent tires and hours of seat time racing MR2s on road courses. That's not it.

SeaEhm

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2017, 09:02:29 AM »
The area I drive through to get to work is full of those Porsche clown cars. I see those, Audis, Mercedes AMGs, BMW M_s, Teslas, Land Rovers... 

It's great incentive for me to keep driving a cheap car. If I spent a ton of money I would only be average, but by spending nothing I get to drive a car that is 'exotic.'

That's actually a very great post!  Though, I disagree with your philosophy on cars, I greatly respect this post!  haha Love it!

libertarian4321

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2017, 12:40:56 PM »

Now if she decides to order the new Tesla Roadster 2020 for $250k (0-60 in 1.9 seconds), we'll have to talk. :)

I haven't heard, but I'm hoping Tesla uses all those self-driving sensors to prevent bumbling idiots from mashing down the accelerator and smashing into the cyclist still crossing the street? 
...because 0-60 in 1.9sec means a car at a stoplight could leap across the intersection in about as much time as it takes the brain to realize "oh crap - someone's still in the crosswalk!'

Will the car prevent such idiocy (and does the P90, for that matter?)

The new Tesla Roadster won't be out until 2020.  Allegedly.

Given that Tesla is usually behind on production, 2021 is probably more realistic?

By then, I'd bet that the self driving feature will be pretty refined, and prevent most, if not all, such incidents.


Rollin

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2017, 05:17:49 PM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

Cool. Though not hardly one place in this county that you could do that legally.

Why would very quickly accelerating to 60 be illegal? Why do you think there's nowhere in this big wide open country that you could do it legally? Have you ever driven across Kansas or numerous other states I could mention?

I always thought that was considered reckless driving. ...and 0-60 in about 2 seconds is not what I would call "quickly accelerating." Yes, I have driven across Iowa, Nebraska, California, Texas, Wyoming, etc. etc. etc., but haven't seen anyone stopped, then fully accelerating to 60 whilst out on the open roads. Oh, and to add, I'm sure once they hit 60 after about 2 seconds they are surely not going to go any faster. However, I wasn't talking about Kansas or any other state like that (I wrote "my county", not "my country").

You are making an odd argument and watering down the incredible speed that this car is capable of (quickly accelerating?).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 05:21:23 PM by Rollin »

Paul der Krake

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2017, 07:36:19 PM »
If I'm going to be spending a lot of money on a car, it will be a highly impractical vintage vehicle, proudly announcing my status as a man of leisure.




RWD

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2017, 07:54:39 PM »
If I'm going to be spending a lot of money on a car, it will be a highly impractical vintage vehicle, proudly announcing my status as a man of leisure.

You would not be a self-indulgent wiener, sir... You'd be a connoisseur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPS02EFgdfE

MMMdude

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2017, 07:56:11 PM »
Colleague at work bought a loaded to the gills F150 Sport thing which is about 50K up here in Canada.  We both are accountants and he has zero reason to own such a thing.  This was literally three days after a promotion. So essentially after taxes he is not banking anything on that promotion which required many many 70+ hour weeks.  So in essence he worked all those hours for a stupid truck he doesn't even need.  The maintenance, gas and insurance costs are no doubt going to be massive on that thing too.  Meanwhile I have owned my car for 18 years and have a very sizeable portfolio, thanks for asking :-)

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2017, 08:00:33 PM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

Cool. Though not hardly one place in this county that you could do that legally.

Why would very quickly accelerating to 60 be illegal? Why do you think there's nowhere in this big wide open country that you could do it legally? Have you ever driven across Kansas or numerous other states I could mention?

I always thought that was considered reckless driving. ...and 0-60 in about 2 seconds is not what I would call "quickly accelerating." Yes, I have driven across Iowa, Nebraska, California, Texas, Wyoming, etc. etc. etc., but haven't seen anyone stopped, then fully accelerating to 60 whilst out on the open roads. Oh, and to add, I'm sure once they hit 60 after about 2 seconds they are surely not going to go any faster. However, I wasn't talking about Kansas or any other state like that (I wrote "my county", not "my country").

You are making an odd argument and watering down the incredible speed that this car is capable of (quickly accelerating?).

My bad on the county vs. country. 

2 seconds is different than 3.8 seconds which is what you replied to. There are quite a few cars on the road already that can do 3.8. And how do cops quantify reckless driving anyway?

I haven't seen anyone do this out in the plains either but I don't think it would be illegal if they did.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2017, 09:45:37 PM »
2 seconds is different than 3.8 seconds which is what you replied to. There are quite a few cars on the road already that can do 3.8. And how do cops quantify reckless driving anyway?
Rigorous investigative work requires a test drive of the apprehended vehicles, for evidence purposes. You don't want officers relying on hearsay, do you?

gggggg

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2017, 06:02:33 AM »
Folks have numerous Porsches, Maseratis and whatnot at my work (I work with politicans). One guy even had a Ferrari, that is, until he totaled it and nearly killed himself.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2017, 06:21:17 AM »
Folks have numerous Porsches, Maseratis and whatnot at my work (I work with politicans). One guy even had a Ferrari, that is, until he totaled it and nearly killed himself.
There's a weird little subculture of people who own and trade Ferrari's and the like and firmly believe that it's cheaper than owning a 'regular' car because they tend to depreciate much less in value. Many years ago there was a poster here who talked in glowing terms of the Ferrari's he had owned.  IIR, the last one he bought for ~$80,000, kept for ~3 years and then sold for about $73,000.  In his/her mind it was a great strategy b/c the cost was really $7k/3 years (or 36 months) = $195/mo.... less than the monthly payment on a Jetta but hey, you got to drive a Ferarri!

...it was then ruthlessly pointed out to the poster that his calculations ignored opportunity cost and considerable storage, maintenance and insurance costs.

point is, it's shocking how many well educated (even finance guys) buy into the marketing myth about expensive cars being a great deal because blah blah blah depreciation... It's just self-delusion.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2017, 07:04:24 AM »
I'm glad I bought a hybrid car, because not only do I save a lot of money on gas, maintenance, and insurance, but it also turned out to be really useful when we faced a natural disaster. We had no power for nearly two weeks and we lived in an apartment at the time so we had no generator. I ended up using the 110v outlet in the car to charge my phone and other portable electronics to stay in contact with family. Nice little feature of the car and the car was much less expensive than those fancy clown cars that soccer moms and NASCAR dads seem to like.

paddedhat

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2017, 08:19:42 AM »
Folks have numerous Porsches, Maseratis and whatnot at my work (I work with politicans). One guy even had a Ferrari, that is, until he totaled it and nearly killed himself.
There's a weird little subculture of people who own and trade Ferrari's and the like and firmly believe that it's cheaper than owning a 'regular' car because they tend to depreciate much less in value. Many years ago there was a poster here who talked in glowing terms of the Ferrari's he had owned.  IIR, the last one he bought for ~$80,000, kept for ~3 years and then sold for about $73,000.  In his/her mind it was a great strategy b/c the cost was really $7k/3 years (or 36 months) = $195/mo.... less than the monthly payment on a Jetta but hey, you got to drive a Ferarri!

...it was then ruthlessly pointed out to the poster that his calculations ignored opportunity cost and considerable storage, maintenance and insurance costs.

point is, it's shocking how many well educated (even finance guys) buy into the marketing myth about expensive cars being a great deal because blah blah blah depreciation... It's just self-delusion.

The other bizarre aspect of owning an exotic is that some brands, like Ferrari, are valued based on their ownership history. Original owner car, with very, very low miles, original tool kit, sales documentation, brochure from dealer, extremely detailed and correct maintenance records, etc.... equals a very high pedigree, and corresponding value. Same car with:

1. Normal daily driver mileage
2. Three previous owners
3. Documented work NOT done at a Ferrari dealer, or highly regarded expert's shop? Everything from having a flat replaced at a chain repair shop, to DIY maintenance.
4. No verifiable service records for some of the massively expensive scheduled maintenance, which can hit high four figures, or more,  and include engine removal?

well, THAT car is worth a hell of a lot less. A lot of this category isn't vehicles, it's art on wheels, and treated as such by owners and investors. And you are correct, the example you stated, of $195/month is an owner without a clue.

Rollin

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2017, 11:45:19 AM »
THAT car cost §116,500 and up!?

It's just a car shaped car!

To be fair, it's a car shaped car that can zero to sixty in 3.8 seconds...

Cool. Though not hardly one place in this county that you could do that legally.

Why would very quickly accelerating to 60 be illegal? Why do you think there's nowhere in this big wide open country that you could do it legally? Have you ever driven across Kansas or numerous other states I could mention?

I always thought that was considered reckless driving. ...and 0-60 in about 2 seconds is not what I would call "quickly accelerating." Yes, I have driven across Iowa, Nebraska, California, Texas, Wyoming, etc. etc. etc., but haven't seen anyone stopped, then fully accelerating to 60 whilst out on the open roads. Oh, and to add, I'm sure once they hit 60 after about 2 seconds they are surely not going to go any faster. However, I wasn't talking about Kansas or any other state like that (I wrote "my county", not "my country").

You are making an odd argument and watering down the incredible speed that this car is capable of (quickly accelerating?).

My bad on the county vs. country. 

2 seconds is different than 3.8 seconds which is what you replied to. There are quite a few cars on the road already that can do 3.8. And how do cops quantify reckless driving anyway?

I haven't seen anyone do this out in the plains either but I don't think it would be illegal if they did.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is an awesome car. I drove in an original Tesla Roadster last summer and was highly impressed. It outdrove anything I've ever driven in. My point was that here they are not practical with all our traffic.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2017, 11:00:34 AM »
I went to a wedding two weeks ago. It was a friend from high school and the old high school crew was back together for two nights. All around solid dudes. We like to make fun of each other, but it's very light hearted. If someone starts to act like a big deal, your friends are the first one's to shoot you down to a normal level.

On the first night my friends were making fun of me for my practical car. 2003 Pontiac Vibe. I bought it for $2500 with 165K miles. I've had it for the past 3.5 years and it now has 210K miles. Most of my friends drive 20K to 30K new cars on credit.

On the second night my friends were giving me a hard time about owning two rental properties. "Must be nice" type of comments. One friend put 2 and 2 together and figured out the reason why I was able to afford two rental properties is because I don't have a car payment. The rest of the group carried on like there was no link between car spending and having extra money for investments.

hdatontodo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2017, 05:19:17 PM »
... I ended up using the 110v outlet in the car to charge my phone and other portable electronics to stay in contact with family...

An inverter that plugs into a 12V outlet can also provide 110V, in case you have a wall charger and not a 12V one.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2017, 12:31:50 PM »
Doesn't matter what you drive, just as long as a person can actually afford what they drive. Definitely many opportunity costs at work there.

Interesting premise - one I haven't quite accepted as of yet.  To be sure people shouldn't go aroudn driving cars they can't afford, but do we give a pass for everyone else just because they can afford it?  AT what point does it stop?  Ridiculous consumption continues to be ridiculous even when a person has millions in the bank.

JLee

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2017, 01:31:29 PM »
No my point is that I'm surrounded by people who choose to finance for as long as possible so the payments are low. And then replace the vehicle about the same time it is paid off b/c either the car is paid for and the owner is board or b/c the owner neglected it more often than they should have. Use it up mentality. Helps justify the next purchase b/c they like to change cars often.

Whatever floats their boat.

Rather than finance something expensive for 84 months why not buy something for cash or finance a budget car so its paid off in a year? And then, build a savings account so the next car can be purchased for cash.

So much psych built into car ownership for some people.

If a person can afford a $50K+ car then go for it. They can keep the economy rolling for the rest of us. Trickle down economics and all that BS. ;)

Personally I'd like to live in a world where there were bicycles on the road, where more people walked where my town was laid out better for people and their bicycles at the expense of vehicular traffic. Maybe someday. My family is quietly pedaling along showing our neighbors a different way of getting around.

I don't get the enthusiasm for cash car purchases when financing is nearly free these days.

I have an $8k loan for 3 years at 1.99%, with a total cost of financing of $247.81 (over the full term).  The S&P 500 has returned 20.91% since October 2016 (when I bought this vehicle), which is a gain of $1,672.80 on that $8k.  The markets could be completely flat for the next two years and I'd still be up over $1400 by the end.

Obviously this calculation can be changed by reducing insurance coverage when a vehicle is paid off, but even still eliminating comprehensive and collision entirely would only save me $332/year (not something I am willing to do even if the vehicle was paid off). I'm still up over $1k, and this is ignoring the next two years of gains while already factoring in the interest I will be paying during the same timeframe.

JLee

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2017, 03:21:02 PM »
Your math works. How many people just see low payments as more money they can spend on something else optional like an ATV or fishing boat or a way to buy the biggest truck on the dealer lot (to commute in)?

Lots of people do, but I don't see how paying cash for a car (vs financing) is relevant to poor choices.  One could easily pay cash for a car and then buy something else because they don't have a payment.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2017, 09:09:16 AM »
Doesn't matter what you drive, just as long as a person can actually afford what they drive. Definitely many opportunity costs at work there.

Interesting premise - one I haven't quite accepted as of yet.  To be sure people shouldn't go aroudn driving cars they can't afford, but do we give a pass for everyone else just because they can afford it?  AT what point does it stop?  Ridiculous consumption continues to be ridiculous even when a person has millions in the bank.

The whole MMM philosophy is centered around whether spending money on X thing brings you commensurate joy.

For someone who genuinely enjoys cars, the equation works out differently compared to someone who views them as an appliance. To my mind, there's a limit, but my "desert island" car is a manual E46 BMW M3 in Laguna Seca Blue. I'll never buy one, but hypothetically, if I was appropriately secure (say ... $3m+ stash), I wouldn't hesitate, because it's worth the cost to me.

nereo

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Re: Clown Car Rant!
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2017, 09:22:08 AM »
Doesn't matter what you drive, just as long as a person can actually afford what they drive. Definitely many opportunity costs at work there.

Interesting premise - one I haven't quite accepted as of yet.  To be sure people shouldn't go aroudn driving cars they can't afford, but do we give a pass for everyone else just because they can afford it?  AT what point does it stop?  Ridiculous consumption continues to be ridiculous even when a person has millions in the bank.

The whole MMM philosophy is centered around whether spending money on X thing brings you commensurate joy.

For someone who genuinely enjoys cars, the equation works out differently compared to someone who views them as an appliance. To my mind, there's a limit, but my "desert island" car is a manual E46 BMW M3 in Laguna Seca Blue. I'll never buy one, but hypothetically, if I was appropriately secure (say ... $3m+ stash), I wouldn't hesitate, because it's worth the cost to me.
Is it, though?  MMM's written repeatedly about the (not-so) secret focus on sustainability and 'earth-friendly' choices (a better term doesn't jump into my head at present).
I'm not saying that owning a E46 BMW M3 is a bad choice, but where do we draw the line at conspicuous consumption?  There was some negative discussion about a poster's neighbor building a 24,000 square foot home.  I'm not willing to give someone who wants to drive a tricked out Oshkosh JLTV on suburban streets each day even if he/she can afford it.  The impact from these choices don't just influence the owner.

tl/dr; This attitude that choices are just about me and whether I can afford it seems to be a systemic part of our consumeristic society.