Author Topic: Churches and tithing  (Read 47564 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2015, 03:42:56 PM »
Christ was a rabidly anti-capitalist.  He would probably support whatever group could efficiently help the most people, not pay for the salary and houses of thousands of personal hype-men to live well.

bacchi

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #51 on: June 18, 2015, 05:00:56 PM »
Quote from: Camara
When I give money to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why they are poor, they call me a communist.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #52 on: June 18, 2015, 05:56:15 PM »
Administratively speaking, there's a weird obsession with real estate in a lot of American non-profits, some of which are churches.

It starts when a group decides that it needs a dedicated building, or dedicated space in a building, to conduct its activities. However, those activities don't require 24x7 use of the space.

A homeless shelter needs 24x7 access to livable space, because its mission is to provide accommodations to people who need them. A low-cost medical clinic requires 24x7 control of the space it occupies simply to keep medical equipment or medicines from being stolen or messed with. Clearly there are some kinds of charity that require exclusive access to brick-and-mortar facilities. But for some reason, there's a tendency for groups that meet only a couple times a week to become convinced that they're not legitimate unless they've got a dedicated space.

The perceived need for exclusive access to space means you get very small congregations (I'm talking about a dozen families or fewer) paying an inordinate amount of money to rent space. It takes up a large portion of their income, and creates a need for constant fundraising. A lot of the time, that turns into pressure on the congregation to donate.

A few months ago I was chatting with a friend, who was describing the challenges she had running her small religious organization (which happened to not be Christian-- I thought I'd make that clear because there are some extremely sensitive individuals on this forum who take any criticism of a religious organization's business decision as some kind of "Christian bashing"). My friend the priestess had a congregation that ranged from ten to twenty regular attendees, who met once to twice a week for services or study. She was feeling a great deal of pressure to provide a dedicated space for this, but could not consistently raise the money for it.

There's no reason a non-profit can't be run out of someone's home, or even out of someone's place of business. It's far cheaper to rent a small self-storage unit for special books, props, or other things needed for services if by chance they can't be stored on the premises. In fact, as long as there's a phone and a mailbox and everyone who wants to contact the charity can do it, does it really matter if religious services are held in someone's back yard or living room? After all, that business model is good enough for all kinds of sports and service charities that would rather spend their money on their program than on overhead.

Another example that comes to mind is a pastor I met whose small, struggling church apparently "needed" a drum kit, keyboard, and sound system. I couldn't quite understand the reason why.

Gin1984

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2015, 06:07:00 PM »
Administratively speaking, there's a weird obsession with real estate in a lot of American non-profits, some of which are churches.

It starts when a group decides that it needs a dedicated building, or dedicated space in a building, to conduct its activities. However, those activities don't require 24x7 use of the space.

A homeless shelter needs 24x7 access to livable space, because its mission is to provide accommodations to people who need them. A low-cost medical clinic requires 24x7 control of the space it occupies simply to keep medical equipment or medicines from being stolen or messed with. Clearly there are some kinds of charity that require exclusive access to brick-and-mortar facilities. But for some reason, there's a tendency for groups that meet only a couple times a week to become convinced that they're not legitimate unless they've got a dedicated space.

The perceived need for exclusive access to space means you get very small congregations (I'm talking about a dozen families or fewer) paying an inordinate amount of money to rent space. It takes up a large portion of their income, and creates a need for constant fundraising. A lot of the time, that turns into pressure on the congregation to donate.

A few months ago I was chatting with a friend, who was describing the challenges she had running her small religious organization (which happened to not be Christian-- I thought I'd make that clear because there are some extremely sensitive individuals on this forum who take any criticism of a religious organization's business decision as some kind of "Christian bashing"). My friend the priestess had a congregation that ranged from ten to twenty regular attendees, who met once to twice a week for services or study. She was feeling a great deal of pressure to provide a dedicated space for this, but could not consistently raise the money for it.

There's no reason a non-profit can't be run out of someone's home, or even out of someone's place of business. It's far cheaper to rent a small self-storage unit for special books, props, or other things needed for services if by chance they can't be stored on the premises. In fact, as long as there's a phone and a mailbox and everyone who wants to contact the charity can do it, does it really matter if religious services are held in someone's back yard or living room? After all, that business model is good enough for all kinds of sports and service charities that would rather spend their money on their program than on overhead.

Another example that comes to mind is a pastor I met whose small, struggling church apparently "needed" a drum kit, keyboard, and sound system. I couldn't quite understand the reason why.
There have been issues, with the IRS and state tax organizations, if the property is not limited in use to the religious activities, in non-Christian groups.  Legally that should not be a problem, but it can and has been an issue. 

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2015, 10:13:40 AM »
Administratively speaking, there's a weird obsession with real estate in a lot of American non-profits, some of which are churches.

It starts when a group decides that it needs a dedicated building, or dedicated space in a building, to conduct its activities. However, those activities don't require 24x7 use of the space.

A homeless shelter needs 24x7 access to livable space, because its mission is to provide accommodations to people who need them. A low-cost medical clinic requires 24x7 control of the space it occupies simply to keep medical equipment or medicines from being stolen or messed with. Clearly there are some kinds of charity that require exclusive access to brick-and-mortar facilities. But for some reason, there's a tendency for groups that meet only a couple times a week to become convinced that they're not legitimate unless they've got a dedicated space.

The perceived need for exclusive access to space means you get very small congregations (I'm talking about a dozen families or fewer) paying an inordinate amount of money to rent space. It takes up a large portion of their income, and creates a need for constant fundraising. A lot of the time, that turns into pressure on the congregation to donate.

A few months ago I was chatting with a friend, who was describing the challenges she had running her small religious organization (which happened to not be Christian-- I thought I'd make that clear because there are some extremely sensitive individuals on this forum who take any criticism of a religious organization's business decision as some kind of "Christian bashing"). My friend the priestess had a congregation that ranged from ten to twenty regular attendees, who met once to twice a week for services or study. She was feeling a great deal of pressure to provide a dedicated space for this, but could not consistently raise the money for it.

There's no reason a non-profit can't be run out of someone's home, or even out of someone's place of business. It's far cheaper to rent a small self-storage unit for special books, props, or other things needed for services if by chance they can't be stored on the premises. In fact, as long as there's a phone and a mailbox and everyone who wants to contact the charity can do it, does it really matter if religious services are held in someone's back yard or living room? After all, that business model is good enough for all kinds of sports and service charities that would rather spend their money on their program than on overhead.

Another example that comes to mind is a pastor I met whose small, struggling church apparently "needed" a drum kit, keyboard, and sound system. I couldn't quite understand the reason why.
There have been issues, with the IRS and state tax organizations, if the property is not limited in use to the religious activities, in non-Christian groups.  Legally that should not be a problem, but it can and has been an issue.

Would you by chance be able to direct me to some examples?

Gin1984

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2015, 11:44:15 AM »
Administratively speaking, there's a weird obsession with real estate in a lot of American non-profits, some of which are churches.

It starts when a group decides that it needs a dedicated building, or dedicated space in a building, to conduct its activities. However, those activities don't require 24x7 use of the space.

A homeless shelter needs 24x7 access to livable space, because its mission is to provide accommodations to people who need them. A low-cost medical clinic requires 24x7 control of the space it occupies simply to keep medical equipment or medicines from being stolen or messed with. Clearly there are some kinds of charity that require exclusive access to brick-and-mortar facilities. But for some reason, there's a tendency for groups that meet only a couple times a week to become convinced that they're not legitimate unless they've got a dedicated space.

The perceived need for exclusive access to space means you get very small congregations (I'm talking about a dozen families or fewer) paying an inordinate amount of money to rent space. It takes up a large portion of their income, and creates a need for constant fundraising. A lot of the time, that turns into pressure on the congregation to donate.

A few months ago I was chatting with a friend, who was describing the challenges she had running her small religious organization (which happened to not be Christian-- I thought I'd make that clear because there are some extremely sensitive individuals on this forum who take any criticism of a religious organization's business decision as some kind of "Christian bashing"). My friend the priestess had a congregation that ranged from ten to twenty regular attendees, who met once to twice a week for services or study. She was feeling a great deal of pressure to provide a dedicated space for this, but could not consistently raise the money for it.

There's no reason a non-profit can't be run out of someone's home, or even out of someone's place of business. It's far cheaper to rent a small self-storage unit for special books, props, or other things needed for services if by chance they can't be stored on the premises. In fact, as long as there's a phone and a mailbox and everyone who wants to contact the charity can do it, does it really matter if religious services are held in someone's back yard or living room? After all, that business model is good enough for all kinds of sports and service charities that would rather spend their money on their program than on overhead.

Another example that comes to mind is a pastor I met whose small, struggling church apparently "needed" a drum kit, keyboard, and sound system. I couldn't quite understand the reason why.
There have been issues, with the IRS and state tax organizations, if the property is not limited in use to the religious activities, in non-Christian groups.  Legally that should not be a problem, but it can and has been an issue.

Would you by chance be able to direct me to some examples?
Most are done at the state level, for "church" exemption vs non-profit but you can see idea of the issues here: http://wildhunt.org/2010/06/back-in-the-saddle-again-plus-some-pagan-news.html

davisgang90

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2015, 01:13:02 PM »
Christ was a rabidly anti-capitalist.
Citation please.

forummm

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2015, 02:12:46 PM »
Christ was a rabidly anti-capitalist.
Citation please.

As with many topics in the Bible, you can argue it both ways.

Examples pro:
Matthew 6: No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matthew 19:
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Phillipians 2: 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
Luke 14: 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Example con:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/jesus-christ-is-a-capitalist/

« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 02:14:18 PM by forummm »

TexasStash

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2015, 02:52:15 PM »
Just as long as nobody uses Jesus overturning the moneychangers' tables in the temple as evidence that Jesus is anti-capitalist. Jesus was (is) against usury, exploitation, and of turning the household of God into a money machine. Some might say that usury and exploitation are at the heart of capitalism. I don't, which is why I don't equate Jesus with anti-capitalism. Capitalism has its vices, but I'll take that over the malaise and stagnation of the other economic systems any day of the week.

GuitarStv

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2015, 03:24:50 PM »
Christ was a rabidly anti-capitalist.
Citation please.

As with many topics in the Bible, you can argue it both ways.

Examples pro:
Matthew 6: No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matthew 19:
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Phillipians 2: 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
Luke 14: 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Example con:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/jesus-christ-is-a-capitalist/

The two from Mathew were specifically what I was thinking about.  It's hard to reconcile the unchecked pursuit of money (capitalism) with the son of God saying that money prevents you from entering Heaven, and serving money brings you further from God.

As an aside, hopefully there are better counter examples than that poorly reasoned article linked.  :P

forummm

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2015, 05:24:49 PM »
Christ was a rabidly anti-capitalist.
Citation please.

As with many topics in the Bible, you can argue it both ways.

Examples pro:
Matthew 6: No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matthew 19:
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Phillipians 2: 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
Luke 14: 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Example con:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/jesus-christ-is-a-capitalist/

The two from Mathew were specifically what I was thinking about.  It's hard to reconcile the unchecked pursuit of money (capitalism) with the son of God saying that money prevents you from entering Heaven, and serving money brings you further from God.

As an aside, hopefully there are better counter examples than that poorly reasoned article linked.  :P

I cringed about posting something from WND, but there really aren't a lot of popular Internet sources out there that provide lots of great reason and logic to make points about the Bible supporting certain causes.

MishMash

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2015, 05:54:42 PM »
@#@@!@@%%!!  Man, this topic hits a nerve for me.  My father died last month, they had been attending the same church for 15 years, and tithing 10%, volunteering, etc.  It seriously took EVERY ounce of will power my sister and I had not to punch the priest and the funeral director by the time it was all over.

To start, Dad wanted to be cremated, the church said it was against their policy to allow cremains in the church, fine we will do the ceremony at the funeral home they own.  Talk to funeral home director, got called cheap for not wanting a body viewing with a 2k cardboard coffin (dad died in a car accident...NO ONE wanted to see that even AFTER they were done with him....for an added fee of course).  Viewing, funeral director yelled at us for moving chairs, and didn't want our picture boards on the aisle because it "cluttered his room up"...the room we were PAYING for.   My husband and brother in law almost decked the guy, and my husband is literally trained to control stress, and his temper....It ended up with him towering over the guy with a "no shit I WILL fucking kill you" face before the guy stopped screaming and finally left us alone.

My brother in laws father is the head of a church band in a different part of the state, my dad and him were EXTREMELY close, he wanted to play at the mass, we called to request it, and offered to pay to NOT have their organist show up.  The BITCH of a church lady, and the priests exact words were..." How would youuuuuu like it if it were youuuuuur job, and someone came in and told YOU that they didn't want you"  Me "well it would mean a lot to my dad if he were allowed to play" Them " Well, I'm sorry, we need to pay our people somehow"

After the wake we had all of these funeral arrangements, the church wouldn't allow any of the flowers (that cost hundreds of dollars) into the church because they didn't want to "clutter up the alter" (which had nine million hideous red flowers on it already)...however we could feel free to donate them to the church for other programs.   In addition, they didn't want to allow us to do a eulogy.  My cousin (who was doing it) told him it was NOT an option, so they made us do it in an overly cramped CCD classroom, and he then told us that he was "doing us a favor by doing a mass on a Saturday"...uuuh isn't that your FUCKING JOB!?!?!.  After the eulogy they walked us into the church (close to 300 people, cramped in a CCD room) where he performed the mass, which wasn't bad, but wasn't special.  They also gave us crap for parking my mother...who was in the same accident that killed my father, and whom we had to illegally remove from the hospital for the funeral...in the aisle because she had 8 hip and back fractures and couldn't get out of the wheelchair.

We left the priest and the director IMMEDIATELY came up for payment after the funeral mass was over, I mean like I was still talking to people.  I had tried to pay them earlier in the week and was told I couldn't pay until it was over, so I said fine, send me the bill.  As I cut that 5 figure check to them I told them that I had been an agnostic for years, but I am now a full blown fucking atheist and it's because of them.  I looked at the priest and said, if you needed this check right now, maybe you shouldn't have spent TEN MILLION DOLLARS on the fucking church expansion the year before.  They nickeled and dimed the shit out of us, but spent 10 million to add an entirely glass expansion in the shape of a cross to their already existing huge church.

I will NEVER donate, tithe, believe in religion, accept crazy religious people, ever...ever again.  If I find someone I think genuinely needs help, I will provide it directly.  This was their third church and according to them the one that treated everyone the nicest.  It was BEYOND FUCKING DISGUSTING.

TexasStash

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2015, 07:32:04 PM »
@#@@!@@%%!!  Man, this topic hits a nerve for me.  My father died last month, they had been attending the same church for 15 years, and tithing 10%, volunteering, etc.  It seriously took EVERY ounce of will power my sister and I had not to punch the priest and the funeral director by the time it was all over.

To start, Dad wanted to be cremated, the church said it was against their policy to allow cremains in the church, fine we will do the ceremony at the funeral home they own.  Talk to funeral home director, got called cheap for not wanting a body viewing with a 2k cardboard coffin (dad died in a car accident...NO ONE wanted to see that even AFTER they were done with him....for an added fee of course).  Viewing, funeral director yelled at us for moving chairs, and didn't want our picture boards on the aisle because it "cluttered his room up"...the room we were PAYING for.   My husband and brother in law almost decked the guy, and my husband is literally trained to control stress, and his temper....It ended up with him towering over the guy with a "no shit I WILL fucking kill you" face before the guy stopped screaming and finally left us alone.

My brother in laws father is the head of a church band in a different part of the state, my dad and him were EXTREMELY close, he wanted to play at the mass, we called to request it, and offered to pay to NOT have their organist show up.  The BITCH of a church lady, and the priests exact words were..." How would youuuuuu like it if it were youuuuuur job, and someone came in and told YOU that they didn't want you"  Me "well it would mean a lot to my dad if he were allowed to play" Them " Well, I'm sorry, we need to pay our people somehow"

After the wake we had all of these funeral arrangements, the church wouldn't allow any of the flowers (that cost hundreds of dollars) into the church because they didn't want to "clutter up the alter" (which had nine million hideous red flowers on it already)...however we could feel free to donate them to the church for other programs.   In addition, they didn't want to allow us to do a eulogy.  My cousin (who was doing it) told him it was NOT an option, so they made us do it in an overly cramped CCD classroom, and he then told us that he was "doing us a favor by doing a mass on a Saturday"...uuuh isn't that your FUCKING JOB!?!?!.  After the eulogy they walked us into the church (close to 300 people, cramped in a CCD room) where he performed the mass, which wasn't bad, but wasn't special.  They also gave us crap for parking my mother...who was in the same accident that killed my father, and whom we had to illegally remove from the hospital for the funeral...in the aisle because she had 8 hip and back fractures and couldn't get out of the wheelchair.

We left the priest and the director IMMEDIATELY came up for payment after the funeral mass was over, I mean like I was still talking to people.  I had tried to pay them earlier in the week and was told I couldn't pay until it was over, so I said fine, send me the bill.  As I cut that 5 figure check to them I told them that I had been an agnostic for years, but I am now a full blown fucking atheist and it's because of them.  I looked at the priest and said, if you needed this check right now, maybe you shouldn't have spent TEN MILLION DOLLARS on the fucking church expansion the year before.  They nickeled and dimed the shit out of us, but spent 10 million to add an entirely glass expansion in the shape of a cross to their already existing huge church.

I will NEVER donate, tithe, believe in religion, accept crazy religious people, ever...ever again.  If I find someone I think genuinely needs help, I will provide it directly.  This was their third church and according to them the one that treated everyone the nicest.  It was BEYOND FUCKING DISGUSTING.

All I can say is I'm sorry they treated you that way. That is horrible. I am stunned. No church should ever treat someone like that, funeral or not. My church certainly wouldn't. The most selfish actions I could possibly think of in that situation all happened.

MgoSam

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2015, 11:04:26 AM »
@#@@!@@%%!!  Man, this topic hits a nerve for me.  My father died last month, they had been attending the same church for 15 years, and tithing 10%, volunteering, etc.  It seriously took EVERY ounce of will power my sister and I had not to punch the priest and the funeral director by the time it was all over.

To start, Dad wanted to be cremated, the church said it was against their policy to allow cremains in the church, fine we will do the ceremony at the funeral home they own.  Talk to funeral home director, got called cheap for not wanting a body viewing with a 2k cardboard coffin (dad died in a car accident...NO ONE wanted to see that even AFTER they were done with him....for an added fee of course).  Viewing, funeral director yelled at us for moving chairs, and didn't want our picture boards on the aisle because it "cluttered his room up"...the room we were PAYING for.   My husband and brother in law almost decked the guy, and my husband is literally trained to control stress, and his temper....It ended up with him towering over the guy with a "no shit I WILL fucking kill you" face before the guy stopped screaming and finally left us alone.

My brother in laws father is the head of a church band in a different part of the state, my dad and him were EXTREMELY close, he wanted to play at the mass, we called to request it, and offered to pay to NOT have their organist show up.  The BITCH of a church lady, and the priests exact words were..." How would youuuuuu like it if it were youuuuuur job, and someone came in and told YOU that they didn't want you"  Me "well it would mean a lot to my dad if he were allowed to play" Them " Well, I'm sorry, we need to pay our people somehow"

After the wake we had all of these funeral arrangements, the church wouldn't allow any of the flowers (that cost hundreds of dollars) into the church because they didn't want to "clutter up the alter" (which had nine million hideous red flowers on it already)...however we could feel free to donate them to the church for other programs.   In addition, they didn't want to allow us to do a eulogy.  My cousin (who was doing it) told him it was NOT an option, so they made us do it in an overly cramped CCD classroom, and he then told us that he was "doing us a favor by doing a mass on a Saturday"...uuuh isn't that your FUCKING JOB!?!?!.  After the eulogy they walked us into the church (close to 300 people, cramped in a CCD room) where he performed the mass, which wasn't bad, but wasn't special.  They also gave us crap for parking my mother...who was in the same accident that killed my father, and whom we had to illegally remove from the hospital for the funeral...in the aisle because she had 8 hip and back fractures and couldn't get out of the wheelchair.

We left the priest and the director IMMEDIATELY came up for payment after the funeral mass was over, I mean like I was still talking to people.  I had tried to pay them earlier in the week and was told I couldn't pay until it was over, so I said fine, send me the bill.  As I cut that 5 figure check to them I told them that I had been an agnostic for years, but I am now a full blown fucking atheist and it's because of them.  I looked at the priest and said, if you needed this check right now, maybe you shouldn't have spent TEN MILLION DOLLARS on the fucking church expansion the year before.  They nickeled and dimed the shit out of us, but spent 10 million to add an entirely glass expansion in the shape of a cross to their already existing huge church.

I will NEVER donate, tithe, believe in religion, accept crazy religious people, ever...ever again.  If I find someone I think genuinely needs help, I will provide it directly.  This was their third church and according to them the one that treated everyone the nicest.  It was BEYOND FUCKING DISGUSTING.

All I can say is I'm sorry they treated you that way. That is horrible. I am stunned. No church should ever treat someone like that, funeral or not. My church certainly wouldn't. The most selfish actions I could possibly think of in that situation all happened.

Seriously, fuck that church!

I'm a regular attendee of a church and it appalls me the way many churches act. I am very sorry for the way you and your family have been treated.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2015, 03:10:07 PM »
Most sundays I am forced attend the world's richest and most popular church = IKEA. And it's also a charity ( http://www.economist.com/node/6919139/)

zephyr911

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2015, 10:35:36 AM »
Christ was a rabidly anti-capitalist.
Citation please.

As with many topics in the Bible, you can argue it both ways.

Examples pro:
Matthew 6: No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matthew 19:
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
Phillipians 2: 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
Luke 14: 33 In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Example con:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/jesus-christ-is-a-capitalist/
Eeeeee. That WND piece is cringeworthy. So many logical leaps and random assertions.

The first verse cited doesn't necessarily take an economic stance at all. I read it as Jesus telling the guy to be a mature adult and not drag his Lord and Savior into their little financial dispute. Maybe he just wanted to make the point that other things are more important than money, so go home and deal with it and then move on. And the false equation of personal responsibility with lassez-faire capitalism is unforgiveable. Plenty of socialists (or supporters of various socialized services, at a minimum) take full responsibility for their own actions and the consequences thereof. And many "socialist" policies are motivated by the real or perceived failure of capitalists to take responsibility for the fallout of industrial and commercial decisions, with bad outcomes for not just workers and customers, but entire economies and societies. Without getting into the merits of any such policies, the false equation is blatantly disingenuous and the author loses points for it.

There's nothing in the Bible (from Jesus or otherwise) opposing government regulation of markets, social nets, even *gasp* redistribution. The verses that speak against the obsession with hoarding wealth at the expense of others are clear as day. So are the ones that say personal wealth should, and in many cases must, be used to benefit the weak and powerless, that wealth is an obstacle to spiritual growth, and that you should pay your taxes (an inherently socialist prescription in the context of the Roman Empire, and in any modern nation as well). And the most pointed ones are given as the words of Jesus himself.

zephyr911

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2015, 10:46:22 AM »
@#@@!@@%%!!  Man, this topic hits a nerve for me.  My father died last month, they had been attending the same church for 15 years, and tithing 10%, volunteering, etc.  It seriously took EVERY ounce of will power my sister and I had not to punch the priest and the funeral director by the time it was all over.
***snip***
I will NEVER donate, tithe, believe in religion, accept crazy religious people, ever...ever again.  If I find someone I think genuinely needs help, I will provide it directly.  This was their third church and according to them the one that treated everyone the nicest.  It was BEYOND FUCKING DISGUSTING.
While I can agree 100% that these people are doing awful shit in the name of God, I will also say, even as an atheist, that I don't find this behavior typical of believers in general. I'm incredibly disappointed and sad to hear how badly they acted... but I would caution you against generalizing this admittedly terrible experience across all believers/churches/religions.

MishMash

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2015, 11:04:30 AM »
@#@@!@@%%!!  Man, this topic hits a nerve for me.  My father died last month, they had been attending the same church for 15 years, and tithing 10%, volunteering, etc.  It seriously took EVERY ounce of will power my sister and I had not to punch the priest and the funeral director by the time it was all over.
***snip***
I will NEVER donate, tithe, believe in religion, accept crazy religious people, ever...ever again.  If I find someone I think genuinely needs help, I will provide it directly.  This was their third church and according to them the one that treated everyone the nicest.  It was BEYOND FUCKING DISGUSTING.
While I can agree 100% that these people are doing awful shit in the name of God, I will also say, even as an atheist, that I don't find this behavior typical of believers in general. I'm incredibly disappointed and sad to hear how badly they acted... but I would caution you against generalizing this admittedly terrible experience across all believers/churches/religions.

I would agree, except this isn't my first experience, not by far.  They stopped going to the first church after the priest didn't show up at the cemetery for my sisters funeral because "she wasn't being buried at the church's cemetery (which was 10k a plot more)"  The burial service ended up being done by a Jewish rabbi who was in the cemetery next to ours conducting a burial and saw everyone there with no priest.  Dude had given his word he'd show up, then didn't.  I've also encountered more shitty people who claim to be such excellent religious people then I care to remember.  Lots of "I can do whatever I want, to whomever I want, even if it's wrong, because Jesus loves me an will forgive me on Sunday" BS.   I'm done, I won't shagrin anyone their faith, if it makes you feel better, go for it, but I will not willingly associate with anyone overly religious anymore.  More wrong has been done in this world in the name of religion then pretty much anything else, war, crime, murder, racism, bigotry.  Nope, I don't need a book, or a 'god' to tell me how to be a good person and treat others with respect.

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2015, 11:38:07 AM »
MishMash -  first, I am sorry for your loss.  Secondly, sorry you and your family were treated that way especially during such a tough time.  I have been very active in churches my entire live and couldn't imagine that kind of treatment, under any circumstances, and am sorry it happened to you.

Kris

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2015, 11:50:57 AM »
...And the false equation of personal responsibility with lassez-faire capitalism is unforgiveable. Plenty of socialists (or supporters of various socialized services, at a minimum) take full responsibility for their own actions and the consequences thereof. And many "socialist" policies are motivated by the real or perceived failure of capitalists to take responsibility for the fallout of industrial and commercial decisions, with bad outcomes for not just workers and customers, but entire economies and societies. Without getting into the merits of any such policies, the false equation is blatantly disingenuous and the author loses points for it.

There's nothing in the Bible (from Jesus or otherwise) opposing government regulation of markets, social nets, even *gasp* redistribution. The verses that speak against the obsession with hoarding wealth at the expense of others are clear as day. So are the ones that say personal wealth should, and in many cases must, be used to benefit the weak and powerless, that wealth is an obstacle to spiritual growth, and that you should pay your taxes (an inherently socialist prescription in the context of the Roman Empire, and in any modern nation as well). And the most pointed ones are given as the words of Jesus himself.

Extremely well put.

MishMash

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2015, 11:58:24 AM »

[/quote]

Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?
[/quote]

Nope, I'll write of Islam on the grounds of it's disgusting treatment of women

GuitarStv

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2015, 12:26:01 PM »


Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?
[/quote]

Nope, I'll write of Islam on the grounds of it's disgusting treatment of women
[/quote]

Disgusting treatment of women is pretty universal in all religions coming from ancient times, no?  The New Testament espouses a lot of sit down and shut up doctrine (1 Timothy 2:9-15, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35) as well . . .

MishMash

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2015, 12:33:31 PM »


Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Nope, I'll write of Islam on the grounds of it's disgusting treatment of women
[/quote]

Disgusting treatment of women is pretty universal in all religions coming from ancient times, no?  The New Testament espouses a lot of sit down and shut up doctrine (1 Timothy 2:9-15, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35) as well . . .
[/quote]

Indeed it is, however Islam takes it to a whole different level in my book, especially when you consider Sharia.  The crap people use religion as an excuse to do to other people has always horrified me.

infogoon

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2015, 12:44:54 PM »
Eeeeee. That WND piece is cringeworthy. So many logical leaps and random assertions.

Well, that's how you know it's WND.

Or maybe it's just the chemtrails making you THINK it's cringeworthy.

Jags4186

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2015, 12:52:24 PM »
I don't understand tithing (or belonging to organized religion in general). 

That said if you're going to be a Jesus person why wouldn't you at least join a club that doesn't require tithing?  Become Catholic or Anglican. I grew up Catholic. You give a few bucks into the basket at mass. You don't write a check for $1000s a year. 

infogoon

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #75 on: June 22, 2015, 01:02:59 PM »
I don't understand tithing (or belonging to organized religion in general). 

That said if you're going to be a Jesus person why wouldn't you at least join a club that doesn't require tithing?  Become Catholic or Anglican. I grew up Catholic. You give a few bucks into the basket at mass. You don't write a check for $1000s a year.

I guess this explains why my (Catholic) church is having so much trouble raising a few thousand bucks to fix the roof.

music lover

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #76 on: June 22, 2015, 01:09:52 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

forummm

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2015, 01:28:20 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.

MgoSam

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2015, 02:35:36 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.

That terrorist in Charleston has killed more Americans than ISIS has. Just sayin'.

Gin1984

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2015, 03:23:15 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Let's be a little more accurate, white men.  Were all the mass shootings done by those were nominally Christian or active?  There is a difference.

libertarian4321

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2015, 04:44:43 PM »
Even if I was religious, I never understood the idea of regular people giving their money to people who live like this.


To quote Cartman: "God has enough money"

How dare you imply that the Pope doesn't need (yet another) gold plated toilet seat!

Blaspheme!

Burn the heretic!



libertarian4321

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2015, 04:47:46 PM »
Maybe the church could have done with a bit less opulence and a bit more feeding the hungry.

Clearly, you don't understand how religion works...

libertarian4321

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Re: .
« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2015, 04:51:31 PM »
tithing is a giant scam.

There are organisations that are 100% charitable, and many times more effective than a church/mosque/temple.

http://www.givewell.org/

Yup.

You give to Reverend Cleophus, and he'll distribute some of the money (whatever is left after Reverend gets his new Mercedes) to some sort of charity that may or my not be efficient/good/effective.

Donate to charity yourself (like those "evil" atheists do) and you can be sure the money will be spent wisely.

Tallgirl1204

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2015, 04:56:18 PM »
So sad to hear people's stories of being treated badly by church leaders or members. 

I had an entirely different experience with my dad's (Lutheran) church-- when my mom died, the church ladies had that social hall overflowing with goodies for the traveling attendees.  We timidly asked for a babysitter for the small children in our family, and one was readily provided.  We had a private interment (sp?) a few days later and we told the pastor not to bother with getting all dolled up in vestments for it, but instead he and the assistant pastor both showed up in full regalia and did a whole beautiful ritual just for my siblings and a few other relatives-- maybe six in total. 

After my mom died, the church became pretty much my dad's whole social life.  He loved the children's pageants, the potlucks and the singing.  If he didn't show up at a choir practice, they were on the phone to see if he was o.k.  At his 80th birthday party, 90% of the non-relatives in attendance were church members who clearly liked him as a person and were looking out for him.  My dad was not a big donater, and in fact was vocal in his disapproval of the church's decision to finance a much-needed addition.  They were not chatting him up to get money out of him, for sure. 

My dad missed choir practice the last week of his life.  When we arrived at the house after his death, there was a care package from the chuch with easily-prepared meal fixings on the front porch along with a get-well note.   There were probably ten increasingly concerned messages on his phone asking how he was feeling and begging him to let someone know if he was o.k.  Again with the food in the house, again with the beautiful post funeral reception, and again with the lovely graveside memorial. 

We made a donation for the pastor's time and trouble, and we annually send a small donation in our parents' memories-- none of this asked for or coerced. 

This church stood between our dad and a very lonely old age in a way that most other social structures don't-- there are very few social structures that include young and old, families and those who have lost theirs, in a way that a church can when it works the way it should-- especially in an era when extended families scatter.  I'm sorry to hear that some churches don't live up to their purpose in this regard. 

libertarian4321

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2015, 05:05:36 PM »
I will NEVER donate, tithe, believe in religion, accept crazy religious people, ever...ever again.  If I find someone I think genuinely needs help, I will provide it directly. 

You've lost your faith which can be disconcerting.

But you've probably been through this before. 

Remember when you found out Santa Claus wasn't real?

At first, it was probably tough to lose an imaginary friend, but you got through it.

You did it before, you can do it again.




davisgang90

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2015, 06:30:13 AM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

Kris

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2015, 06:35:22 AM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

Sigh.  Here's a little light reading to help you hone your critical tinking skills.

http://www.skeptical-science.com/atheism/hitler-stalin-mao-atheist-mass-murderers/

davisgang90

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2015, 06:39:51 AM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

Sigh.  Here's a little light reading to help you hone your critical tinking skills.

http://www.skeptical-science.com/atheism/hitler-stalin-mao-atheist-mass-murderers/
My tinking is fine.  I was just borrowing forummm's really broad brush.

GuitarStv

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2015, 06:47:25 AM »
Muslim, Christian, Atheist . . . there's no group of human beings that manages to avoid having dicks.  Dicks tend to be dicks regardless of age, creed, race, or beliefs.  Dicks will search out a reason to engage in dickishness.  For some, this involves dicking around with ancient scriptures, for some it involves secular dickery.  No one group should be defined by the dicks that belong to it . . . but it's also important to remember that no group is without those dicks.

Kris

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2015, 06:49:45 AM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

Sigh.  Here's a little light reading to help you hone your critical tinking skills.

http://www.skeptical-science.com/atheism/hitler-stalin-mao-atheist-mass-murderers/
My tinking is fine.  I was just borrowing forummm's really broad brush.

Fair enough.  That didn't so much come through to me through the factual inaccuracy, I guess.

forummm

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2015, 07:42:09 AM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!

Sigh.  Here's a little light reading to help you hone your critical tinking skills.

http://www.skeptical-science.com/atheism/hitler-stalin-mao-atheist-mass-murderers/
My tinking is fine.  I was just borrowing forummm's really broad brush.

Fair enough.  That didn't so much come through to me through the factual inaccuracy, I guess.

Wasn't trying to start a tiff here. I should have chosen my words more carefully. The point wasn't that domestic mass murderers' Christian orientation (regardless of whether another observer would deem their Christianness to be "sufficient") had anything to do with their actions. The point is that "terrorism" is in the eye of the beholder. The word has come to be used as a tool of political framing. Some have used it very successfully to rally feelings of hostility towards Muslims en mass. There are well over a billion Muslims, and while their cultural practices may be different than yours, nearly all of them are not terrorists. We have a lot of mass murder in our own country, most often perpetrated by non-Muslim men (to be most broad). The media tends not to call that terrorism. But when it's a Muslim perpetrator it's suddenly terrorism.

Quote
Back in the United States, the percentage of terror attacks committed by Muslims is almost as miniscule as in Europe. An FBI study looking at terrorism committed on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 found that 94 percent of the terror attacks were committed by non-Muslims. In actuality, 42 percent of terror attacks were carried out by Latino-related groups, followed by 24 percent perpetrated by extreme left-wing actors.

And as a 2014 study by University of North Carolina found, since the 9/11 attacks, Muslim-linked terrorism has claimed the lives of 37 Americans. In that same time period, more than 190,000 Americans were murdered (PDF).

In fact in 2013, it was actually more likely Americans would be killed by a toddler than a terrorist. In that year, three Americans were killed in the Boston Marathon bombing. How many people did toddlers kill in 2013? Five, all by accidentally shooting a gun.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html

Quote
Since 9/11, Kurzman and his team tallies, 33 Americans have died as a result of terrorism launched by their Muslim neighbors. During that period, 180,000 Americans were murdered for reasons unrelated to terrorism. In just the past year, the mass shootings that have captivated America’s attention killed 66 Americans, “twice as many fatalities as from Muslim-American terrorism in all 11 years since 9/11,” notes Kurzman’s team.
http://www.wired.com/2013/02/american-muslim-terrorism/

People have a long history of inventing reasons to hate and do harm upon others. Religion is just one of those convenient excuses.

supomglol

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2015, 07:49:34 AM »
"Churches are businesses."

This is what I tell people who question my lack of participation in Tithing or Churches in general.  I think people forget that churches have bills to be payed, staff to employ, grounds to keep, and they only have one kind of income.  Yours. 


wenchsenior

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2015, 07:53:29 AM »
Muslim, Christian, Atheist . . . there's no group of human beings that manages to avoid having dicks.  Dicks tend to be dicks regardless of age, creed, race, or beliefs.  Dicks will search out a reason to engage in dickishness.  For some, this involves dicking around with ancient scriptures, for some it involves secular dickery.  No one group should be defined by the dicks that belong to it . . . but it's also important to remember that no group is without those dicks.

+11111111

This is also why I distrust dogma of all kinds. And why I like the scientific method as a general framework for investigating the world, rather than faith. All 'truth' is provisional at all times, and assumptions must be questioned and tested repeatedly...pretty much the opposite of religion.

On topic, given that I find religious faith to be an objectively silly, if understandable, reaction to the unknowables of life, even I recognize that organized religion can play some very important roles in stabilizing communities and supporting people. And most of the religious people that I know personally are wonderful, thoughtful people, whose religion lends them some structure for their lives and helps them act in positive ways that I often would do well to emulate.

On the other hand, I see religious-based horrors all the time in the media, so the 'dicks' are definitely getting the press.  And people are self sorting by nature, so it makes sense that the more unpleasant elements (such as experienced by the bereaved poster) find each other.  That's also probably how this new Gospel of Prosperity b.s. got a foothold in American churches as well. If enough selfish dicks who think of themselves as good Christians group together and tell each other they are still good Christians while being selfish dicks, they will believe each other eventually.

MishMash

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2015, 08:09:42 AM »
I will NEVER donate, tithe, believe in religion, accept crazy religious people, ever...ever again.  If I find someone I think genuinely needs help, I will provide it directly. 

You've lost your faith which can be disconcerting.

But you've probably been through this before. 

Remember when you found out Santa Claus wasn't real?

At first, it was probably tough to lose an imaginary friend, but you got through it.

You did it before, you can do it again.

Not hard for me at all actually, I've been agnostic for the past decade and a half or so, this final experience was just the giant middle finger in the air "Zero fucks are given" anymore moment that's pushed me 100% into the atheist camp. 

Le Poisson

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2015, 08:30:08 AM »
I remember reading some stuff about the Mormon church where they tithe more than 10%, I think 15%? Anyway it's definitely a form of social security, apparently if you're financially stretched they pay your bills and rent for you. One woman described how her single mother was helped out with living costs long term as she grew up. On the other hand they were over involved with parishioners lives but I was pretty impressed with how they help out the less fortunate in their community.

Benevolence (the church providing material assistance) is a way for the church (not just the Mormon church) to have influence in the community and greater control over members' lives. First there is the motivation of gratefulness that encourages a willingness to give the church (and those who lead it) the benefit of the doubt. On the flip side, there is the motivation of fear for members receiving aid that any benefits provided by the church can be withdrawn if one does not stay in the good grace of the leadership and/or congregation.

That's a pretty cynical way to look at it.  When I was growing up in poverty, my church was very good about helping us put food on the table, get presents at Christmas when we couldn't afford anything, and help with heating oil in the winter.  They didn't ask for anything back at all.

All very commendable. That doesn't change the fact that by providing this support, your church had additional influence over your parents that they would not have had otherwise.

If Christians have received the Grace of God, then they should naturally want to extend that grace to others by helping the needy.  If Christians aren't doing that, then you have to question whether they are really Christians or if they are just charlatans.

No disagreement, but the purity of motives does not mean that the church providing the benevolence is not creating a situation in which they have power of those they assist, particularly for members who one would expect to receive more support (and be more expected to conform) than nonmembers. That is why some conservative churches are against government welfare. When people can get help from the government and not from the church, the church loses influence.

<Note: I was raised mormon, served a mission, then left the church in my middle 20's. Its been about 15 years since I set foot in an LDS chapel. I will not return.>

Your comments about controlling members' lives etc. is very true in this community. I don't know how unique it is to the LDS faith however I have also tried (and failed) to find a spiritual outlet in other traditional faiths and found their tithing requirements to be far less invasive in their doctrine, however I believe the Mormons are not alone in their practice.

What it costs to be Mormon:

The LDS faith does collect a 10% tithe, quoting Malachi 3:10 to justify the practice. Originally, Brigham Young instructed the practice of tithing as a way to feed and clothe the community as it settled Utah and the rockies, then the practice fell out of favour, eventually being brought back by Lorenzo Snow when the church was facing bankruptcy in the late 1800's.

Today it is unclear what the church uses tithing for. In addition to teh 10% tithe, a monthly fast offering is collected which is used to supply food and cover bills for those who can't feed/care for themselves. Meals are also often supplied by the women's auxilliary (Relief Society) in the case of sickness disease, however these are volunteered by individuals and not paid for by the church.

How is the tithe used, where is income generated?

It appears that the LDS Church uses the tithes to fund business startups and to run its temples and other institutions. These institutions are diverse and range from benevolent to outright money makers.

Many are familiar with the LDS university and college program including BYU, BYU Hawaii, and Rick's College. But these are funded through tuition and student fees as well as the same funding avenues as any other higher education facility.

The church also runs the Polynesian Cultural centre - essentially a theme park in Hawaii - which claims to be a religious centre, but offers very little of moral or religious value. This is funded through gate admissions. http://www.polynesia.com/

The church owns a number of successful web domains through investment or directly including ancestry.com - started by a Utah Mormon, still held at an arms length with an agreement from the church's investment branch, and the directly LDS owned familysearch.com while there are other church owned sites, these two are the ones with the most media coverage.

The LDS faith does have a very full investment portfolio though which includes large real estate holdings worldwide such as the following (which come quickly to mind):
http://www.deseretranchflorida.com/
https://www.lds.org/tools/print/article/narrow/?url=/locations/camping/sites/1065866&lang=eng
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Creek_Center

They also own their own travel agency which is used to move missionaries and church leadership around the world:
It was Murdoch travel, but google is failing me. Maybe its been sold off or something.

The Church owns a number of canning plants, orchards, and farms with which they both produce for Deseret Industries (The LDS Welfare branch) as well as for commercial sale.

How much of the business interest of the church is funded through tithes is unclear since the LDS community has never opened their books to the public, however; since all the business interests are operated under the umbrella of the church, their tax bill is known absolutely. $0.00

The control bit:

So how does Mormonism use tithing to control its membership? This one is easy. Tithing is taught early on to kids in preschool using simple lessons, and the notion of teaching giving back to the community is a good one. By the time a child is in their pre-teens, the idea is ingrained as part of their faith.

As a pre-teen, the child will have their first opportunity to attend a Mormon Temple, likely to perform baptisms for the dead. (we can talk about that doctrine some other time)  this rite of passage is usually conducted as a group outing, and before attending the temple, the child will have to attend a worthiness interview with their 'priest' (called a Bishop). In that interview, one of the many worthiness questions will be whether the child is a full tithe payer. In the event they are not, the Bishop can declare them unworthy to attend.

It is an embarrassing thing for a teen to face their social web and admit that they will not be attending the temple since they are unworthy. Often the youth leaders will take the unworthy kids along on the Temple trip (in my case a 10 hour drive from Toronto to Washington DC) to 'feel the spirit of the place'. There the child will sit outside alone and wait for their friends to come back out of the temple and join them. It can leave a lasting impression. Depending on the distance to the temple, this scenario may play itself out monthly (we now have a temple in Toronto, so the kids go frequently) or semi-annually.

As the child grows, more temple trips are required for other life experiences, you cannot serve a mission without first attending the temple. You cannot have an eternal family without attending the temple. For converts to the religion, some areas are now requiring that tithes be paid in order to be accepted for baptism.

The essence of all this is that while Mormons believe that a person can leave this world and enter 'a lower degree of glory' after death without tithes or temple attendance, the only way to achieve the 'highest degree of glory' and enter the celestial kingdom (essentially heaven) is through temple attendance - which is predicated upon paying a full tithe. The great threat to all this is that a family cannot be together in heaven if one of its members fails to pay up. And in a religion that builds its entire dogma on the eternal nature of the family, that threat is huge.

All these years later this one song still sticks with me on the subject - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8_-UsTcE3A - Now go pay your tithing or you will be the reason your family isn't in heaven. <---- Sarcasm.

Pish-posh applesauce. I find my God in other places now.

 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 08:59:07 AM by Prospector »

Gin1984

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2015, 03:22:10 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!
We really do need to have a conversation about "what's wrong with white men in the US?" So much racism, homophobia, misogyny. And violence. The fact that we need to have that conversation is not disparaging white men, because it is based on real issue that we as a society ignore.

Is it that they see minorities, women, and LGBT folks as whittling away their precious privilege? It is not uncommon to hear the phrases "our women" and "our country." The sense of ownership is probably also not uncommon.

Yes, yes, #NotAllWhiteMen, if that needs to be said.


nobodyspecial

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2015, 03:45:49 PM »
but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim.
On behalf of a country where IRA doesn't mean Roth we would like to thank all the Americans in Boston for supporting NORAID

Quote
And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.
We still talking about the catholic church then ?


davisgang90

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2015, 04:08:03 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!
We really do need to have a conversation about "what's wrong with white men in the US?" So much racism, homophobia, misogyny. And violence. The fact that we need to have that conversation is not disparaging white men, because it is based on real issue that we as a society ignore.

Is it that they see minorities, women, and LGBT folks as whittling away their precious privilege? It is not uncommon to hear the phrases "our women" and "our country." The sense of ownership is probably also not uncommon.

Yes, yes, #NotAllWhiteMen, if that needs to be said.
So since you agree it isn't #AllWhiteMen, what percentage do you think are the issue?  90%? 60%?  Genuinely curious.  Also if you refer to white men condescendingly (as you did) aren't you disparaging them?  I'm a white guy who isn't racist, isn't afraid of homosexuals, treats my spouse (and all females) as equals and hasn't engaged in any violence, I really feel like I'm missing something.

It is a relief to hear that men of other races don't suffer from any of the above mentioned sins.  I really hope we can square away all the white guys.

forummm

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2015, 04:26:54 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!
We really do need to have a conversation about "what's wrong with white men in the US?" So much racism, homophobia, misogyny. And violence. The fact that we need to have that conversation is not disparaging white men, because it is based on real issue that we as a society ignore.

Is it that they see minorities, women, and LGBT folks as whittling away their precious privilege? It is not uncommon to hear the phrases "our women" and "our country." The sense of ownership is probably also not uncommon.

Yes, yes, #NotAllWhiteMen, if that needs to be said.

Yes, just the other day I walked into a bank and saw a white man in a suit and I instinctively grabbed for my wallet. I know, not all white men in suits working in banks cratered the economy and caused massive unemployment while taking my money home in bonuses--but almost all of those economy crashing bankers were white, and mostly male.

And where are all the good white males speaking out against all this terrible white male behavior? Why isn't every single white male politician badgered during every interview to apologize for the white male culture that has allowed all of these nefarious activities to flourish?

And where are all the white male fathers? Who's letting all these white male sons go around and shoot up temples and schools and movie theaters and churches? Where are the white male fathers?

Gin1984

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Re: Churches and tithing
« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2015, 06:31:40 PM »
Write off Islam while you're at it because they're all terrorists anyway, right?

Of course not all people who believe in Islam are terrorists, but almost every single terrorist is a Muslim. And, of course, their disgusting treatment of women should bother everyone. That alone should be enough for any person to write them off. You included.

Hey now. Let's keep it clean here. And this is far from true. Most terrorism in the US is conducted by white Christians. The media just calls it terrorism whenever there's a Muslim involved, and a random act by a crazy person when it's a white Christian man.
Sweet!  Now we can disparage white Christian men!  Not to worry, Atheists still have the record for mass killings around the world in the last two centuries.  Well done Atheists!
We really do need to have a conversation about "what's wrong with white men in the US?" So much racism, homophobia, misogyny. And violence. The fact that we need to have that conversation is not disparaging white men, because it is based on real issue that we as a society ignore.

Is it that they see minorities, women, and LGBT folks as whittling away their precious privilege? It is not uncommon to hear the phrases "our women" and "our country." The sense of ownership is probably also not uncommon.

Yes, yes, #NotAllWhiteMen, if that needs to be said.
So since you agree it isn't #AllWhiteMen, what percentage do you think are the issue?  90%? 60%?  Genuinely curious.  Also if you refer to white men condescendingly (as you did) aren't you disparaging them?  I'm a white guy who isn't racist, isn't afraid of homosexuals, treats my spouse (and all females) as equals and hasn't engaged in any violence, I really feel like I'm missing something.

It is a relief to hear that men of other races don't suffer from any of the above mentioned sins.  I really hope we can square away all the white guys.
Please tell me, exactly, what you think is condescending about about what I said.  What is the rate of rapists in this country, do you know?  How many rapists are repeat rapists, any idea?  Have you ever spoken up when you see sexism?  Or racism?  Or homophobia?  Have your male friends?
I have a lot of male friends who would say they are not sexist, yet until the #Yesallwomen, not one had ever thought to speak up when those occurred and yet, those are exactly the people that need to speak up because those are who will be listened to.  Do you know that women are taught to say, I have a boyfriend, or I'm married instead of no, when she is bothered by a guy, regardless if she is, because it is safer and the guy is more likely to go away if he think she "belongs" to man.  This is a culture issue among white males in the US.  You might be the 1:100 of men who has not done any racist, sexist or homophobic things, it possible, but more likely you are not aware of those things because you never had to.  Until recently, have you ever had to defend being a Christian, white male? 
How many of the mass shooting have been done by males, how many have been white males?  And what commonalities do you see in those men and the average white man.  From where I sit, I see quite a few.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 06:35:22 PM by Gin1984 »