Author Topic: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it  (Read 14038 times)


Montecarlo

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2019, 06:22:04 AM »
Not that I have any sympathy for Chase, but itís sad how some people will lash out instead of accept their shortcomings and attempt self improvement

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2019, 07:03:54 AM »
Ok I was prepared to be on Chase's side, but reading just the first line of that tweet made me roll my eyes so hard.

Do not try to be Wendy's, Chase! You cannot pull it off. Now stop being a dick.

"Make coffee at home"... Why is that being a dick?

In general I'm not a fan of corporations tweeting anything but I don't see anything wrong with this.

scantee

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2019, 07:08:00 AM »
It was a dumb tweet. No one wants to be lectured to by a giant corporation even if they are right. Brands trying to be witty or cutesy on social media is a trend that cannot die soon enough.

jinga nation

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2019, 07:13:11 AM »
y'alls missed the point. the tweet gave the corporate twits plenty of attention, both positive and negative.
the important thing is that a lot of eyeballs saw Chase and it got into their noggin'.
Mission Achieved.

scantee

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 07:25:04 AM »
y'alls missed the point. the tweet gave the corporate twits plenty of attention, both positive and negative.
the important thing is that a lot of eyeballs saw Chase and it got into their noggin'.
Mission Achieved.

Are you under the impression that people donít know that J.P. Morgan Chase Bank exists? Being a dick to your potential customers to get attention might be a winning strategy for businesses with no name recognition. Not so much for behemoth corporations with hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue and hundreds of thousands of employees.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2019, 07:26:54 AM »
y'alls missed the point. the tweet gave the corporate twits plenty of attention, both positive and negative.
the important thing is that a lot of eyeballs saw Chase and it got into their noggin'.
Mission Achieved.

Pretty much. I was pondering why Chase might have any interest in encouraging responsible spending but in today's advertising the message is mostly irrelevant. publicity is likely the only explanation.

Ignoring their motivations for a moment, I think it's interesting that corporations shovel non-stop advertising down our throats that lies and shames us into buying their products but when one of them suggests we actually spend less they're now the enemy.*

*To be fair, I don't know how people actually react to these things and in what numbers. I'm just going by anecdotal evidence of angry people on twitter and in the comments section which probably isn't a representative cross section of society.

DadJokes

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2019, 07:52:43 AM »
Yes, I know people aren't going to take advice from a giant corporation. They also don't take financial advice from anyone reputable, which is why most people live beyond their means and save nothing.

I generally don't have an issue with Chase. They did partake in the government bailout in 2008, though it was forced on them, and they repaid it promptly and with interest. On a personal level, I've certainly benefited from their credit card rewards.

If we're going to crap on a bank, let's track down Wells Fargo.

El Jacinto

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2019, 08:16:19 AM »
But they framed it as insultingly as possible. People without a lot of money in their checking accounts are dumb, have disposable income but blow it on unnecessary crap, and have zero self awareness of the issue.

That sounds like a pretty good description of most people.

All they were trying to do was get edgy with memes, and people with victim mentalities got butthurt.

El Jacinto

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2019, 08:28:02 AM »
I assume that anyone who spends time on Twitter isn't in the depths of poverty.

Just Joe

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2019, 08:40:34 AM »
I don't know - there's a ton of teens and older on Twitter.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2019, 08:44:50 AM »
Ok I was prepared to be on Chase's side, but reading just the first line of that tweet made me roll my eyes so hard.

Do not try to be Wendy's, Chase! You cannot pull it off. Now stop being a dick.

"Make coffee at home"... Why is that being a dick?

In general I'm not a fan of corporations tweeting anything but I don't see anything wrong with this.

That's the thing, I was ready to see a boring tweet that said, 5 tips to save money! Make coffee at home! Eat leftovers!

But they framed it as insultingly as possible. People without a lot of money in their checking accounts are dumb, have disposable income but blow it on unnecessary crap, and have zero self awareness of the issue.

I don't think the intent was to insult. It followed the format of a popular meme, as noted in the article. I thought it was kinda funny.

SNL made a similar joke, I hope people didn't find this insulting -

https://vimeo.com/199334296

You've read way more into this than I have. My take on this kind of joke is simply the part that I've bolded. A bit of humor against the human race. We know what we need to do but we're willfully ignorant if we don't like the solution, that's how this meme works. Just like the example referenced in the article, the person knows they feel terrible because they're not taking care of their body but the alternative is, like, hard.

jinga nation

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2019, 09:04:48 AM »
y'alls missed the point. the tweet gave the corporate twits plenty of attention, both positive and negative.
the important thing is that a lot of eyeballs saw Chase and it got into their noggin'.
Mission Achieved.

Are you under the impression that people donít know that J.P. Morgan Chase Bank exists? Being a dick to your potential customers to get attention might be a winning strategy for businesses with no name recognition. Not so much for behemoth corporations with hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue and hundreds of thousands of employees.
If people didn't know of JPMC's existence pre-tweet, now they do.
There is no marketing sacred cow; be as outrageous as possible, easier to apologize later. Forgiveness is easier than permission. In the large scale of time, this too shall pass.
Meme tweet to garner the attention of younger workers and make JPMC look cooler? I'm sure the old chaps in marketing approved this.
Let me know if anyone remembers this in a week/month.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2019, 09:13:33 AM »
y'alls missed the point. the tweet gave the corporate twits plenty of attention, both positive and negative.
the important thing is that a lot of eyeballs saw Chase and it got into their noggin'.
Mission Achieved.

Are you under the impression that people donít know that J.P. Morgan Chase Bank exists? Being a dick to your potential customers to get attention might be a winning strategy for businesses with no name recognition. Not so much for behemoth corporations with hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue and hundreds of thousands of employees.
If people didn't know of JPMC's existence pre-tweet, now they do.
There is no marketing sacred cow; be as outrageous as possible, easier to apologize later. Forgiveness is easier than permission. In the large scale of time, this too shall pass.
Meme tweet to garner the attention of younger workers and make JPMC look cooler? I'm sure the old chaps in marketing approved this.
Let me know if anyone remembers this in a week/month.

And more than just name recognition, internet publicity leads to clicks, searches, and keywords. Multiple links to their stock ticker and twitter account within that article.

jinga nation

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2019, 11:04:52 AM »
y'alls missed the point. the tweet gave the corporate twits plenty of attention, both positive and negative.
the important thing is that a lot of eyeballs saw Chase and it got into their noggin'.
Mission Achieved.

Are you under the impression that people donít know that J.P. Morgan Chase Bank exists? Being a dick to your potential customers to get attention might be a winning strategy for businesses with no name recognition. Not so much for behemoth corporations with hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue and hundreds of thousands of employees.
If people didn't know of JPMC's existence pre-tweet, now they do.
There is no marketing sacred cow; be as outrageous as possible, easier to apologize later. Forgiveness is easier than permission. In the large scale of time, this too shall pass.
Meme tweet to garner the attention of younger workers and make JPMC look cooler? I'm sure the old chaps in marketing approved this.
Let me know if anyone remembers this in a week/month.

And more than just name recognition, internet publicity leads to clicks, searches, and keywords. Multiple links to their stock ticker and twitter account within that article.

The laughable irony that many folks, MMMers and BHs included, feign outrage at this tweet but cheer on when Chase in their fund portfolio does well.

thesis

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2019, 11:11:08 AM »
It was a dumb tweet. No one wants to be lectured to by a giant corporation even if they are right.

Yeah, I think this is the key takeaway. Random dude on internet? Not a big deal. Multi-billion dollar company? RAGE. (okay, well sometimes there is rage toward the random internet dude, too, but nobody else cares)

Companies shouldn't try to be cutesy, but yeah, I think the message is fine. It's just that people don't want to be told there are ways to improve their situation, they really do latch onto that victim mentality.

jinga nation

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2019, 12:14:59 PM »
It was a dumb tweet. No one wants to be lectured to by a giant corporation even if they are right.

Yeah, I think this is the key takeaway. Random dude on internet? Not a big deal. Multi-billion dollar company? RAGE. (okay, well sometimes there is rage toward the random internet dude, too, but nobody else cares)

Companies shouldn't try to be cutesy, but yeah, I think the message is fine. It's just that people don't want to be told there are ways to improve their situation, they really do latch onto that victim mentality.

Why not? Corporations are people too!
/s

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2019, 12:32:38 PM »
It was a dumb tweet. No one wants to be lectured to by a giant corporation even if they are right.

Yeah, I think this is the key takeaway. Random dude on internet? Not a big deal. Multi-billion dollar company? RAGE. (okay, well sometimes there is rage toward the random internet dude, too, but nobody else cares)

Companies shouldn't try to be cutesy, but yeah, I think the message is fine. It's just that people don't want to be told there are ways to improve their situation, they really do latch onto that victim mentality.

Ya, I think this is where a lot of these conversations get complicated and people end up talking past one another. Do we think it's a dumb tweet because it's a dumb tweet or is it a dumb tweet because it won't be received well?

I would agree with the latter but not the former.

I still don't like the knee jerk reaction that this is somehow shaming poor people. If you don't buy individual cups of coffee, waste food, or ride in cabs, obviously this tweet doesn't apply to you. It seems like some people are reading this as, "if you have no money, it's you're own fault" but that's not what it says.

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2019, 09:31:12 AM »
Unsurprised that this forum cheers on Chase Bank as they encourage consumers to race to the bottom while counting billion dollar profits. Gotta put the plebeians in their place.

The funny thing is that I thought this was going to be an advertisement for something helpful. I saw a commercial for a bank (Wells Fargo maybe?) that will aggregate your monthly subscriptions and present them to you. i.e., "Hey, you subscribe to Hulu, Prime, and Netflix, do you really need all three?"

But no, it's just some social media employee being a dick.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2019, 09:56:12 AM »
Unsurprised that this forum cheers on Chase Bank as they encourage consumers to race to the bottom while counting billion dollar profits. Gotta put the plebeians in their place.

The funny thing is that I thought this was going to be an advertisement for something helpful. I saw a commercial for a bank (Wells Fargo maybe?) that will aggregate your monthly subscriptions and present them to you. i.e., "Hey, you subscribe to Hulu, Prime, and Netflix, do you really need all three?"

But no, it's just some social media employee being a dick.

I didn't see anyone cheering for Chase Bank here, in fact almost every commenter was negative towards chase. What some of us agree with is the content of what was said. If we could separate the content from the source would that change your opinion of it?

For example, if MMM had made this joke, how would you feel differently about it?

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2019, 09:58:46 AM »
Not sure why a bank can say A, B and C and get labelled as being a dick whereas when MMM says the same thing, or something even more provocative (e.g. clown cars, face punches, etc), that is given a gold pass.

Double standards ahoy.

I like the ad. I like big banks and I cannot lie.

StarBright

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2019, 10:03:12 AM »


I don't think the intent was to insult. It followed the format of a popular meme, as noted in the article. I thought it was kinda funny.

SNL made a similar joke, I hope people didn't find this insulting -

https://vimeo.com/199334296

You've read way more into this than I have. My take on this kind of joke is simply the part that I've bolded. A bit of humor against the human race. We know what we need to do but we're willfully ignorant if we don't like the solution, that's how this meme works. Just like the example referenced in the article, the person knows they feel terrible because they're not taking care of their body but the alternative is, like, hard.

I think the anger may be aimed more at the gross cynicism of the whole thing. JPMC doesn't want people saving money - they make money off overdraft fees and cc fees and interest. They want you to borrow money and spend it.

So this is either a cover tweet for the Jamie Dimon bad press a couple of weeks ago or it is just a playing both sides type of move and people don't like that.

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2019, 10:37:06 AM »
I didn't see anyone cheering for Chase Bank here, in fact almost every commenter was negative towards chase. What some of us agree with is the content of what was said. If we could separate the content from the source would that change your opinion of it?

For example, if MMM had made this joke, how would you feel differently about it?

Look at the title of the thread my guy.

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2019, 10:40:08 AM »
Not sure why a bank can say A, B and C and get labelled as being a dick whereas when MMM says the same thing, or something even more provocative (e.g. clown cars, face punches, etc), that is given a gold pass.

Double standards ahoy.

I like the ad. I like big banks and I cannot lie.

I'm a frequent critic of people (MMM included) opining on financial circumstances that they cannot possibly understand. But I find MMM's commentary to be mostly genuine. And I truly believe he does it to help people. JPM did this as a cynical and ill-advised attempt at generating goodwill for their brand. I'm always going to be allergic to that shit.



mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2019, 10:53:05 AM »
Not that I have any sympathy for Chase, but it’s sad how some people will lash out instead of accept their shortcomings and attempt self improvement

What people are we talking about here though? The imaginary people that Chase concocted who wonder why they're poor when they don't make their own coffee? I think it's a misstep to start a good faith discussion on personal responsibility that is based around a conjured up image that doesn't match reality.

For what it's worth, MMM is guilty of this too. He talks about the "average american" financing a brand new clown car when the reality is that the average car on the road 10 or 11 years old. It's more eye-catching to imagine the potential savings of a $40K car budget down to a $10K car budget, or daily Starbucks to daily office coffee. But it's a substantially less honest conversation IMO.

I'm a huge fan of shrewd personal finance choices. That's why I do this FIRE thing. But it's a mistake to assume that the country needs to "self-improve" it's way out of rapidly widening income inequality. So when an institution that is part of that inequality problem appears so out of touch, people complain.

It's a very good thing that they complain, and we all reap the benefits from it.

Blueberries

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2019, 11:13:59 AM »
Not sure why a bank can say A, B and C and get labelled as being a dick whereas when MMM says the same thing, or something even more provocative (e.g. clown cars, face punches, etc), that is given a gold pass.

Double standards ahoy.

I like the ad. I like big banks and I cannot lie.

My issue with the comparison is that MMM wasn't bailed out by the American people for poor financial decisions while chastising others for the same thing. 

FWIW, I don't read the blog nor do I ascribe to the "face punch" bullshit; it's called being a dick where I'm from. 

Not that I have any sympathy for Chase, but itís sad how some people will lash out instead of accept their shortcomings and attempt self improvement

What people are we talking about here though? The imaginary people that Chase concocted who wonder why they're poor when they don't make their own coffee? I think it's a misstep to start a good faith discussion on personal responsibility that is based around a conjured up image that doesn't match reality.

For what it's worth, MMM is guilty of this too. He talks about the "average american" financing a brand new clown car when the reality is that the average car on the road 10 or 11 years old. It's more eye-catching to imagine the potential savings of a $40K car budget down to a $10K car budget, or daily Starbucks to daily office coffee. But it's a substantially less honest conversation IMO.

I'm a huge fan of shrewd personal finance choices. That's why I do this FIRE thing. But it's a mistake to assume that the country needs to "self-improve" it's way out of rapidly widening income inequality. So when an institution that is part of that inequality problem appears so out of touch, people complain.

It's a very good thing that they complain, and we all reap the benefits from it.

Well said.

Enigma

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2019, 11:21:33 AM »
You: why is my balance so low
Bank Account: you get .01% interest
Bank Account: you have overdraft charges
Bank Account: the monthly fees went up
You: I guess we'll never know
Bank Account: seriously?

DadJokes

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2019, 12:13:26 PM »
Not that I have any sympathy for Chase, but itís sad how some people will lash out instead of accept their shortcomings and attempt self improvement

What people are we talking about here though? The imaginary people that Chase concocted who wonder why they're poor when they don't make their own coffee? I think it's a misstep to start a good faith discussion on personal responsibility that is based around a conjured up image that doesn't match reality.

For what it's worth, MMM is guilty of this too. He talks about the "average american" financing a brand new clown car when the reality is that the average car on the road 10 or 11 years old. It's more eye-catching to imagine the potential savings of a $40K car budget down to a $10K car budget, or daily Starbucks to daily office coffee. But it's a substantially less honest conversation IMO.

I'm a huge fan of shrewd personal finance choices. That's why I do this FIRE thing. But it's a mistake to assume that the country needs to "self-improve" it's way out of rapidly widening income inequality. So when an institution that is part of that inequality problem appears so out of touch, people complain.

It's a very good thing that they complain, and we all reap the benefits from it.

Starbucks is a fortune 500 company, and the average savings rate for Americans in 2018 was 7.6% (wish I could find median) - there is probably some merit in the idea that many people are spending money on coffee that probably should be used to pay off debt or invest. A 2017 study showed that the average American spent $1,100/year on coffee, a number which I'd be willing to guess has risen.

Total car debt in the US in 2018 was $1.27 trillion, which gives an average household car debt just shy of $10k, another figure that exceeds the savings for a significant number of people.

It doesn't matter if the tweet came from Chase, Mr Money Mustache, or anyone else. People don't like being told how to handle their finances, even if making the suggested change would improve their lives. It's easier to perpetuate the victim mentality, something we see all too much of in society, in finances and elsewhere.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2019, 01:42:55 PM »
I didn't see anyone cheering for Chase Bank here, in fact almost every commenter was negative towards chase. What some of us agree with is the content of what was said. If we could separate the content from the source would that change your opinion of it?

For example, if MMM had made this joke, how would you feel differently about it?

Look at the title of the thread my guy.

I don't get it. It's a statement of fact, not positive or negative towards Chase. Can you clarify what you mean here?

slugline

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2019, 02:04:50 PM »
Conveniently enough, the people that would be turned off by that tweet are exactly the people that should not be banking with Chase in the first place. So it all works out....

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2019, 02:10:00 PM »
Not that I have any sympathy for Chase, but itís sad how some people will lash out instead of accept their shortcomings and attempt self improvement

What people are we talking about here though? The imaginary people that Chase concocted who wonder why they're poor when they don't make their own coffee? I think it's a misstep to start a good faith discussion on personal responsibility that is based around a conjured up image that doesn't match reality.

For what it's worth, MMM is guilty of this too. He talks about the "average american" financing a brand new clown car when the reality is that the average car on the road 10 or 11 years old. It's more eye-catching to imagine the potential savings of a $40K car budget down to a $10K car budget, or daily Starbucks to daily office coffee. But it's a substantially less honest conversation IMO.

I'm a huge fan of shrewd personal finance choices. That's why I do this FIRE thing. But it's a mistake to assume that the country needs to "self-improve" it's way out of rapidly widening income inequality. So when an institution that is part of that inequality problem appears so out of touch, people complain.

It's a very good thing that they complain, and we all reap the benefits from it.

MMM is absolutely guilty of this, I can agree with that. He sets up exaggerated examples of wasteful spending which are far from average. Perhaps the average person is guilty of one or two of the examples of excess he uses but not all of them. I always assumed his examples were based on the people who are most visible to him, other high earners in the middle to upper middle class. And to top it off, the exaggeration is part of his writing style for better or for worse. I take his writing with a grain of salt and for the most part I enjoyed reading the blog.

But if you think that Chase has made up imaginary people here, we're not going to be able to come to an agreement. These people exist. I talk to them on a daily basis at work.

I disagree with your last point too. We should be complaining about unfair legislation, lobbyists, and shady business practices... not tweets that suggest we should be less wasteful. The environment doesn't appreciate single use cups, wasted food, or short taxi rides either.

ETA: I also think the complaints are harmful to those who could benefit from this type of advice*. When a chorus of voices join together and say it's not your fault you're broke it just makes it that much harder to change your behavior.

*Not that this "advice" is particularly good but I'm also referring to any suggestion of re-examining necessities when you're struggling financially.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 02:31:17 PM by Dabnasty »

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2019, 04:37:01 PM »

I don't get it. It's a statement of fact, not positive or negative towards Chase. Can you clarify what you mean here?

I mean I don't think someone posts a thread like this in a forum called "Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy" unless their intent is to shame and laugh at the people raising an issue with Chase.

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2019, 05:26:28 PM »
Not that I have any sympathy for Chase, but itís sad how some people will lash out instead of accept their shortcomings and attempt self improvement

What people are we talking about here though? The imaginary people that Chase concocted who wonder why they're poor when they don't make their own coffee? I think it's a misstep to start a good faith discussion on personal responsibility that is based around a conjured up image that doesn't match reality.

For what it's worth, MMM is guilty of this too. He talks about the "average american" financing a brand new clown car when the reality is that the average car on the road 10 or 11 years old. It's more eye-catching to imagine the potential savings of a $40K car budget down to a $10K car budget, or daily Starbucks to daily office coffee. But it's a substantially less honest conversation IMO.

I'm a huge fan of shrewd personal finance choices. That's why I do this FIRE thing. But it's a mistake to assume that the country needs to "self-improve" it's way out of rapidly widening income inequality. So when an institution that is part of that inequality problem appears so out of touch, people complain.

It's a very good thing that they complain, and we all reap the benefits from it.

I accept that no one will ever change from "not poor" to "poor" on the strength of drinking or not drinking coffee. I think the gist of hte argument is that buying coffee is a small lifestyle choice, and over time, small lifestyle choices add up.

In Australia, the expression is "buying a smashed avo on toast" (which here costs $18 so it's quite ridiculous) - except here it's used pejoratively to criticise those giving others financial advice. But I think there's a good point behind the coffee/smashed avo argument. All your small financial choices add up.

When I was young and scrimping, I didn't go to after-work drinks on a Friday (maybe $25 saved per week), I turned down the heating ($30 saved per week), I did extra work via a second job ($100 saved per week), and I never bought coffees ($25 saved per week). All these little things added up over time. Did they change my life? No. But did they give me a significant advantage after 2-3 years? Yes. And are they reflective of taking personal responsibility of my situation? Yes.

And people do finance cars, and many cars are entirely discretionary. There's no reason to have a car over, say, $20k in price - anything above that is discretionary. So inflating a discretionary purchase and then financing it is a poor financial choice. I don't see why anyone has to apologise for stupid financial choices on behalf of others - though I accept that many Americans do not buy the 'average' car, all the same, many do - and their choices can validly be scrutinised.

Montecarlo

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2019, 06:22:41 PM »
Not that I have any sympathy for Chase, but itís sad how some people will lash out instead of accept their shortcomings and attempt self improvement

What people are we talking about here though? The imaginary people that Chase concocted who wonder why they're poor when they don't make their own coffee? I think it's a misstep to start a good faith discussion on personal responsibility that is based around a conjured up image that doesn't match reality.

For what it's worth, MMM is guilty of this too. He talks about the "average american" financing a brand new clown car when the reality is that the average car on the road 10 or 11 years old. It's more eye-catching to imagine the potential savings of a $40K car budget down to a $10K car budget, or daily Starbucks to daily office coffee. But it's a substantially less honest conversation IMO.

I'm a huge fan of shrewd personal finance choices. That's why I do this FIRE thing. But it's a mistake to assume that the country needs to "self-improve" it's way out of rapidly widening income inequality. So when an institution that is part of that inequality problem appears so out of touch, people complain.

It's a very good thing that they complain, and we all reap the benefits from it.

Are you suggesting there arenít people out there who canít benefit from the advice of ďstop buying shit you canít afford!Ē?

Youíre begging the question a little bit here. Youíre argument that self improvement isnít the way out of the income equality assumes income equality itself is the issue at hand (or even a problem at all).  The issue at hand is people whose lifestyles are financially fragile and have the power to make better decisions.

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2019, 06:04:20 AM »
Are you suggesting there aren’t people out there who can’t benefit from the advice of “stop buying shit you can’t afford!”?

No. I just think it does damage to the overall public discourse around income/wealth inequality when a megabank brings up the subject apropos of nothing in an extremely condescending way as part of a PR move, and we all take it on good faith.

You’re begging the question a little bit here. You’re argument that self improvement isn’t the way out of the income equality assumes income equality itself is the issue at hand (or even a problem at all).  The issue at hand is people whose lifestyles are financially fragile and have the power to make better decisions.

If I were JP Morgan Chase, I would certainly want that to be the issue at hand as well. I'd want to avoid at all costs, discussions on the latest tax bill, how it saved me $3.7 billion, how much our share repurchase program has accelerated in the past five years, and when the benefit will reach laborers and consumers, despite the fact that JPM's own analysis of TCJA yielded the following top line conclusions:

Quote
In dollar terms, TCJA tax cuts are primarily channeled to taxpayers with incomes between $100k and $500k

Larger percentage increases in after-tax income accrue to the top quintile and decile of taxpayers

While TCJA tax cut is sizable, TCJA beneficiaries have lower propensities to spend (i.e., low fiscal multipliers)

Since the US is close to full employment and since the output gap has disappeared, there are no cyclical reasons for a tax cut

That is some ice cold water.

Montecarlo

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2019, 06:50:17 AM »
@mathlete

I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of that.  But you are falling in the trap of reacting to the messenger and not the message.  It's ad hominen.

If Lucifer himself came up from the bowels of hell and said "Love thy neighbor," would your reaction be "You know, I can get behind that," or "Hey asshole, don't think I forgot that shit you pulled with the apple!"

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2019, 06:53:23 AM »
I think mathlete dislikes the hypocrisy inherent in taking advantage of financially stupid people and then pretending to care about the financial stupidity of financially stupid people. Whilst I agree that it's hypocritical and poor form, at the same time, I don't really care, because from my point of view as a private citizen, I agree with the message. Also, from my vantage point, I don't care that people can be poor financial managers, because it's their life and their choice.

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2019, 07:51:22 AM »
@mathlete

I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of that.  But you are falling in the trap of reacting to the messenger and not the message.  It's ad hominen.

If Lucifer himself came up from the bowels of hell and said "Love thy neighbor," would your reaction be "You know, I can get behind that," or "Hey asshole, don't think I forgot that shit you pulled with the apple!"

I would think, "What the fuck is this guy up to?"

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2019, 08:08:12 AM »
In general though, I don't believe in separating the message from the messenger in most cases.

Imagine that there was a politician who was constantly used exaggerated, mean-spirited, and divisive rhetoric. Then the politician gives a speech on how we all need to unify and repair our broken public discourse.

Unity and fixing our discourse are unambiguously positive things. No one could possibly disagree with that. But the politician is clearly saying this things from a place of extremely bad faith. Smart people shouldn't engage with her in good faith simply because the message is positive or inoffensive in a vacuum. This is how Charlie Brown ends up on his ass after trying to kick the football for the tenth time.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2019, 08:41:23 AM »
In general though, I don't believe in separating the message from the messenger in most cases.

Imagine that there was a politician who was constantly used exaggerated, mean-spirited, and divisive rhetoric. Then the politician gives a speech on how we all need to unify and repair our broken public discourse.

Unity and fixing our discourse are unambiguously positive things. No one could possibly disagree with that. But the politician is clearly saying this things from a place of extremely bad faith. Smart people shouldn't engage with her in good faith simply because the message is positive or inoffensive in a vacuum. This is how Charlie Brown ends up on his ass after trying to kick the football for the tenth time.

But isn't your argument that the actual advice is bad too?

The funny thing is that I thought this was going to be an advertisement for something helpful...snip

But no, it's just some social media employee being a dick.

Also there's a difference between a liar making a feel good speech and suggesting concrete advice. I would criticize the feel good speech too but I wouldn't criticize them for giving advice. Of course I wouldn't stop criticizing the lying either.

StarBright

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2019, 08:42:21 AM »
@mathlete

I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of that.  But you are falling in the trap of reacting to the messenger and not the message.  It's ad hominen.

If Lucifer himself came up from the bowels of hell and said "Love thy neighbor," would your reaction be "You know, I can get behind that," or "Hey asshole, don't think I forgot that shit you pulled with the apple!"

I'd equate it more with a meth dealer saying "Don't Do Drugs!" and then offering a discount on your first buy.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2019, 08:46:22 AM »
@mathlete

I don't necessarily disagree with you on any of that.  But you are falling in the trap of reacting to the messenger and not the message.  It's ad hominen.

If Lucifer himself came up from the bowels of hell and said "Love thy neighbor," would your reaction be "You know, I can get behind that," or "Hey asshole, don't think I forgot that shit you pulled with the apple!"

I'd equate it more with a meth dealer saying "Don't Do Drugs!" and then offering a discount on your first buy.

And I would equate the reactions we're seeing to "Don't tell me what to do with my body, you don't know my situation"

I would say it's entirely fair to criticize the drug dealer, but why would you criticize the fact that he told you not to do drugs?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 08:52:41 AM by Dabnasty »

Bloop Bloop

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2019, 08:52:52 AM »
In general though, I don't believe in separating the message from the messenger in most cases.

Imagine that there was a politician who was constantly used exaggerated, mean-spirited, and divisive rhetoric. Then the politician gives a speech on how we all need to unify and repair our broken public discourse.

Unity and fixing our discourse are unambiguously positive things. No one could possibly disagree with that. But the politician is clearly saying this things from a place of extremely bad faith. Smart people shouldn't engage with her in good faith simply because the message is positive or inoffensive in a vacuum. This is how Charlie Brown ends up on his ass after trying to kick the football for the tenth time.

Dabnasty says it better than I can.

Like it or not, even if it is bad faith for the Bank to promulgate the message, it's not bad faith for us as mustachians to do so. After all, we're not the bank.

So while you can criticise the bank for putting forth a hypocritical message, if Dabnasty puts forth the same message, you can't criticise that advice.

And that's the crux of it. Small, individual, sub-par decisions eventually make a significant difference in one's life.


Bloop Bloop

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2019, 08:55:28 AM »
The other thing is, you can't compare a bank to a drug dealer, because drugs are illegal and (many drugs are) unequivocally bad for you due to being addictive; whereas a bank service is good for you if you're not stupid about going into debt, taking on bad personal loans,  etc etc

So a drug dealer is a really simplistic analogy. I don't think I've ever paid a cent of interest to the bank - even when I was making minimum wage. Because I'm not financially stupid.

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2019, 09:06:56 AM »
The other thing is, you can't compare a bank to a drug dealer, because drugs are illegal and (many drugs are) unequivocally bad for you due to being addictive; whereas a bank service is good for you if you're not stupid about going into debt, taking on bad personal loans,  etc etc

So a drug dealer is a really simplistic analogy. I don't think I've ever paid a cent of interest to the bank - even when I was making minimum wage. Because I'm not financially stupid.

You may have the financial intelligence to avoid paying interest and fees but do you really think that it's ok to take advantage of someone who has less financial intelligence simply because it's legal?

I think it makes sense that people are paid based on the value they provide, meaning intelligence is rewarded but I don't think it's ok for those with intelligence to take advantage of those with less.

Whether or not banks do this and how is a whole different conversation we probably shouldn't get into in this thread.

StarBright

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2019, 09:15:15 AM »
The other thing is, you can't compare a bank to a drug dealer, because drugs are illegal and (many drugs are) unequivocally bad for you due to being addictive; whereas a bank service is good for you if you're not stupid about going into debt, taking on bad personal loans,  etc etc

So a drug dealer is a really simplistic analogy. I don't think I've ever paid a cent of interest to the bank - even when I was making minimum wage. Because I'm not financially stupid.

FWIW- I was comparing a drug dealer to the Satan analogy :) Which I thought was simplistic so I was offering a simple contrast.

I agree that a bank is a different, and more complex kettle of fish - but -  I also think it is also simplistic to say "just don't listen to the bank".

We know that marketing works on the psyche of most people. It is a gazillion dollar industry because it works. So the bank spends tons of money getting you to use/pay for their product. And then they spend a teeny tiny negligible amount saying "don't use our product." And now they can defend themselves by saying "we told you not to use our product, not our fault if you did"  when, in fact, the majority of the efforts and dollars go towards getting you to do spend your money with them.   

I think it is fair to criticize advice that isn't made in good faith.   

Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2019, 09:16:44 AM »
I didn't see anyone cheering for Chase Bank here, in fact almost every commenter was negative towards chase. What some of us agree with is the content of what was said. If we could separate the content from the source would that change your opinion of it?

For example, if MMM had made this joke, how would you feel differently about it?

Look at the title of the thread my guy.

I don't get it. It's a statement of fact, not positive or negative towards Chase. Can you clarify what you mean here?

I mean I don't think someone posts a thread like this in a forum called "Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy" unless their intent is to shame and laugh at the people raising an issue with Chase.

Oh, and because I'm apparently unable to let stuff that really doesn't matter go :) I still don't think the title of this thread is cheering on Chase. Was the intent to shame? yes, but I don't think that equates to cheering for Chase.

JTColton

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2019, 09:38:00 AM »
Tweet is very mustachian, makes sense and many (most?) people would do well to take a look at themselves. Seems like the people it describes are the ones complaining. I don't think someone who has to work multiple jobs to put food on the table has time or inclination to rage out on Twitter over some random attempt by a bank to be edgy.


Davnasty

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2019, 09:45:29 AM »
The other thing is, you can't compare a bank to a drug dealer, because drugs are illegal and (many drugs are) unequivocally bad for you due to being addictive; whereas a bank service is good for you if you're not stupid about going into debt, taking on bad personal loans,  etc etc

So a drug dealer is a really simplistic analogy. I don't think I've ever paid a cent of interest to the bank - even when I was making minimum wage. Because I'm not financially stupid.

FWIW- I was comparing a drug dealer to the Satan analogy :) Which I thought was simplistic so I was offering a simple contrast.

I agree that a bank is a different, and more complex kettle of fish - but -  I also think it is also simplistic to say "just don't listen to the bank".

We know that marketing works on the psyche of most people. It is a gazillion dollar industry because it works. So the bank spends tons of money getting you to use/pay for their product. And then they spend a teeny tiny negligible amount saying "don't use our product." And now they can defend themselves by saying "we told you not to use our product, not our fault if you did"  when, in fact, the majority of the efforts and dollars go towards getting you to do spend your money with them.   

I think it is fair to criticize advice that isn't made in good faith.

Well that's a different angle I hadn't considered. I'm not sure in what way Chase could use a tweet to defend themselves (maybe you meant in terms of public opinion?) but in theory I would criticize that angle.

Unfortunately I doubt most of the public backlash has come from such a thorough examination. I have no data to back it up but it feels more like a kneejerk reaction to the idea that people share responsibility for their lack of savings. Some people really are in a situation where they're the only one who can help themselves (regardless of whether it's society's fault or their own) and the public reaction to this tweet is reinforcing learned helplessness.

mathlete

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Re: Chase gives financial advice, and people demand an apology for it
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2019, 09:46:56 AM »
Trying to synthesize what everyone is saying to come up with a good response.

By listening to what the drug-dealer/Satan/politician/megabank, has to say, and responding with, "Yes, that is a good point. People should not do drugs/sin/lie/be financially irresponsible," we're allowing them to control the narrative. We're having the conversation that they want to have. It's extremely manipulative.

I'm gonna bold this next sentence because it is really important. Personal fiscal responsibility is incredibly important and I encourage everyone to practice it.

But now I'm going to put that on a list with other important things to talk about with regards to financial struggle on a macroeconomic scale.

-Personal finance (people buy too much coffee)
-Technology and globalization leading to the mass devaluation of human labor output in the West
-Companies paying low wages while their employees must lean on social safety nets to cover the difference
-Massive, corporate tax breaks that further stress social safety nets

If I'm Chase, I'm circling the top item on the list and enthusiastically saying, "Let's talk about that!", meanwhile I'm perpetuating and enriching myself off of the other items on the list because we're all too busy talking about how much coffee some vague, median consumer purchases.

People are right to push back against this kind of cynical agenda setting. On any other week, I'd be more inclined to chalk it up to a dorky brand trying to be hip on the internet. But in light of the Dimon stuff, people should get mad. They should push back.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 09:49:00 AM by mathlete »