Author Topic: Biking is dangerous  (Read 43714 times)

Halfsees

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Biking is dangerous
« on: August 15, 2017, 05:15:16 PM »
Yeah, please excuse me if I go all whiney pants, but I just had this exchange while biking home:

Car pulls up next to me as I am biking on the narrow, two lane road about a mile from my house. I look up in surprise to see an older lady peering out her window at me. "Don't you know what you are doing is dangerous?!" Me: "It's not. Being sedent--" Her: "Yes it is! Especially on this road!" And off she drives.

I really do think she was well intentioned, but it was really discouraging. Part of me wonders if she is right? Where I live is the ex-burbs, full of hilly, two lane roads with little to no shoulders and the part we were on is the narrowest part. In fact, it's the same part I got honked at going the other direction only an hour before that. Plus, a lot of people around here drive huge pickups, which leave little room as they go around a bicycle, and I've been driven off the road by delivery trucks. You see as much farm equipment as you do other bikes and never any other women. I have dreamed of getting to the point where I am in enough shape to regularly get groceries on my bike but what if I do get hit someday?

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 05:18:29 PM by sehr »

I'm a red panda

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2017, 06:33:49 PM »
Everyone I know who has commuted to work for a regular period of time has gotten hit.

All of them got hit while doing lawful things (not being the jackasses that run through stop signs or pull up on the right of cars to get through intersections.)

Thankfully none of them have been killed or had seriously life altering injuries. Many of them do have seemingly minor injuries that will plague them the rest of their lives.

Wear a helmet.  Use bright lights.  Consider a reflective vest.   But consider that all of these things you may still get hit.

Sibley

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2017, 08:06:16 PM »
Then you get hit. Would you prefer to have a massive heart attack? Or diabetes?

We all die eventually.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2017, 08:13:02 PM »
A hilly two-lane road like you describe is also likely windy/curvy as well. And with no shoulder? Yeah, it's dangerous. And you could get hit. You should do everything in your power to increase your visibility.

This woman probably had the best of intentions. I've often thought about letting people know, for their own safety, that they are running/walking on the wrong side of the road (they should be facing traffic), but I've never actually done it. And the people who ride a bicycle facing traffic, on the side of the traffic lane...well, if they're that stupid...I'm not sure I can really help.

Optimiser

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2017, 09:49:03 PM »
MMM just retweeted this: https://medium.com/shifter/forget-all-the-other-reasons-you-should-be-riding-a-bike-this-is-the-one-that-matters-f2a5cf151ae6

Also, we need more people riding bikes, not less if we want to make biking a safer activity. Keep fighting the good fight.

Travis

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 10:49:21 PM »
Was she driving? The first thing that popped into my head was "pay attention to the road and I'll be safer."

gooki

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2017, 05:52:57 AM »
We have narrow hilly roads in our town. Thankfully plenty of people ride up / down them that's it's expected that you'll come across cyclists, so you drive accordingly.

kayvent

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 06:10:22 AM »
Where I live, a famous biker was recently killed when a car hit them. This caused an uproar and a new by-law was issued that required drivers to give one metre of space to cyclists when passing them. I felt safer after that.

Louisville

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 06:43:37 AM »
Silly false dichotomy:
Bike and get hit by a car vs. don't bike and have a heart attack.
Not everyone who rides a bike is going to get hit. There are other ways to exercise than biking on busy roads.
Anecdote and physics tell me that biking on busy roads IS dangerous. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any hard evidence that I am. I rarely ride my bike anywhere but on walking/bike paths.
That said, I do all I can to share the road with bikers when I've driving, and vice-versa. You want to bike on busy roads? I've got your back as best I can.


Snow

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 06:45:43 AM »
Where I live, I have gotten into way more potentially dangerous situations with other bikers than I have with cars.

Halfsees

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 08:28:42 AM »
Thanks everyone. I appreciate your views. I have purchased a vest to make myself more visible. Hopefully it won't also make me look more competent and change the risk perception of me to drivers.

There is a 3' rule in my state but not everyone follows it. I do try to follow the traffic rules of my state and will sometimes take the lane (or a big chunk of it) since it is legal. That's probably why I got honked at. I find that when I do take the lane, I force drivers to go into the oncoming lane to pass me and they are more careful since they have to put themselves at risk too. I read in a book that women tend to get hit more than men in The States because we often don't drive aggressively enough and will hug the side tempting vehicles to pass more closely in order to stay in the lane.

Also, there is a controversial view women tend to be slower and it places them more at risk. I often fantasize about buying an electric long board cargo bike so that I am faster on hills because I do think it would be safer as well as more fun. I dream of having my 6 year old daughter on the back and actually being able to be somewhat car free, taking the hillier but safer roads to retail at a greater distance than I can currently pedal. However, most electric cargo are pretty pricey and the one model I've seen that isn't that also has pedal assist, the Radbike, seems to have lousy customer service and I don't have a lot of mechanical skills. Maybe someday. In the meantime, I'm trying to use my bike and learn how to maintain it.

Personally, I see biking as having the ability to change our society in a positive way. It's not only better for our air and our health, it also humanizes us to each other when we aren't speeding around sealed in metal boxes. You're actually going slow enough to see your neighbors. I can see changes in my area where it is getting more bike friendly, for instance they'll stick in a few yards of bike lane with new construction, but unfortunately right where I am isn't.

MilesTeg

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 09:14:47 AM »
Biking IS dangerous. So is driving.

But biking on a narrow, two lane, is TOO dangerous, IMHO. Remember, just because the stats MMM likes to tout say biking is safer than driving, that does not mean ALL biking situations fall under the umbrella

Find a reasonably safe route (i.e. a route designed to accommodate both vehicle and bike traffic simultaneously). Also, chuck out the false dichotomy that you either bike or be sedentary.

Halfsees

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 09:48:17 AM »

Find a reasonably safe route (i.e. a route designed to accommodate both vehicle and bike traffic simultaneously). Also, chuck out the false dichotomy that you either bike or be sedentary.

Hi Miles. Thanks for replying. Your advice is very idealistic. Like a lot of the U.S., the roads here aren't designed for bikes. The route I take is the only one that I can physically handle right now and it's actually the safe one compared to another shorter route. The only other alternative that I can take to useful retail and that I would consider safer is about 10 miles one way with a 500 ft incline. I think I'd need an ebike for that or a lot more dedication to riding to get myself in better shape. Right now I bike about 5 miles one way with a 300 ft incline and that kills me in humidity, I'm ashamed to say.

The road right by my house has low volume and is beautiful and fun to ride and allows me to go to my kids elementary school and the park. However, to get to retail, the library, etc. I need to take roads that are less than optimal. There simply aren't many roads, most land is private so there is no paths though woods (something I was surprised to discover when I moved here since I came from the neighboring county that was full of paths) and neighborhoods tend to have a single entrance to a main road, meaning there are no cut throughs. It is what it is :)
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:51:08 AM by sehr »

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2017, 11:06:30 AM »
I live in Milwaukee and commute using a trail 90%. I'm still a little anti-biker on the road unless its designated bike trail. Seen too many bikers think they are above Red lights, wear all black at twilight or dont wait in line if a car is turning right. I'm all in support of expanding bike lanes and making it easier, but downtown Milwaukee is tough place for bike due to all the congested street parking that narrows the lane. If possible, I try to stay on the side streets while biking the half mile im off a trail.

PoutineLover

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2017, 11:18:52 AM »
Very few bike/car collisions are bikes being hit from behind. Crossing streets and turning, especially against signals, is far more likely to result in an accident. I take the lane on roads with street parking, so I don't get doored. I use lights and take bike paths when possible, but sometimes roads are unavoidable. I think that if you ride safely and make yourself visible, biking isn't too high risk, and far preferable to driving.

Halfsees

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2017, 11:25:57 AM »
Very few bike/car collisions are bikes being hit from behind. Crossing streets and turning, especially against signals, is far more likely to result in an accident.

I did not know that. Thanks for sharing.

kendallf

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 11:27:41 AM »
These types of threads always seem to attract people who wish to share negative anecdotes.  The data indicate that riding, especially lawfully and predictably and well lit when applicable, is fairly safe, statistically.

Here's my anecdote: I am a cyclist in one of the cities regularly ranked as the worst in the country for bicycles (Jacksonville, FL).  I ride thousands of miles each year, on all sorts of roads here and on travel.  I have never been hit by a car, and my health metrics are excellent thanks to riding. 


acroy

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2017, 11:53:50 AM »
Biking is dangerous. Bikes lose arguments with cars. I do 3-5k miles a year, mostly commuting. Only you can really get a feeling for how dangerous it is on your specific roads. The law will not protect you from getting hit!

I do not cycle on the 55-60mph, 2-lane shoulderless roads around here. I consider it unsafe to myself and other road users, as sightlines are not very good in places, and I am a 'slow moving vehicle'.

good luck! cycle on! (if you can safely ;))

paddedhat

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 12:16:47 PM »
Very few bike/car collisions are bikes being hit from behind. Crossing streets and turning, especially against signals, is far more likely to result in an accident. I take the lane on roads with street parking, so I don't get doored. I use lights and take bike paths when possible, but sometimes roads are unavoidable. I think that if you ride safely and make yourself visible, biking isn't too high risk, and far preferable to driving.

Way too general of a statement. I live in an area of very rural, narrow roads, an unusually high percentage of bike traffic (one of the largest Amish settlements in the world) and all too common serious and fatal bicycle-car collisions. They are usually hit from behind. OTOH, traffic lights, cross street traffic, and car doors are not even on the radar for the average cyclist here. Big difference in safety and potential dangers once you pedal out of the city.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 01:03:57 PM by paddedhat »

Imma

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2017, 12:38:17 PM »
Biking can dangerous in certain places. You need to watch out, because you're more vulnerable than a driver. I live in a generally bike-friendly area, but there are places where I really watch out. Funny enough it's not in the cities, the dangerous places are narrow country roads with very little traffic. In the city, most of the traffic consists of small cars, driver sits at street level, they know that there are pedestrians and bikes and kids around. In country roads, there's not much traffic but a lot of it is heavy farm equipment. They drive quite fast because they've got work to do and they don't expect other people. Because the vehicles are so high, it's sometimes hard to see what's going on down below next to the weels. And when you get in an accident you're much more likely to die.

Personally, I have been in a few bike crashes. Two bikes were damaged beyond repair. I wasn't legally at fault but I should have watched out better. In all cases I was young (under 16). I suffered a minor concussion when I was cycling past a parked car and the owner suddenly jumped out on the road. I sprained my ankle when my neighbour backed out of his driveway without looking into his mirror. In both cases I should have expected what was about to happen, but because of my lack of traffic experience at that age I didn't.

My dad always used to say biking was dangerous. He had two heart attacks and bypass surgery and was in a few car accidents too. You can never be completely safe in life. One way or the other you die eventually.

Chesleygirl

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2017, 12:48:29 PM »
As long as your asking opinions....I went to a funeral this summer of a man killed on his bike (motorcycle). Another friend of mine's husband is paralyzed from a car that crashed into his bike.
But no, I wouldn't confront a total stranger who is biking and tell them it's dangerous. That was out of line for the woman to say that to you. I just assume that people know their own risks.

Halfsees

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2017, 12:59:10 PM »

I do not cycle on the 55-60mph, 2-lane shoulderless roads around here. I consider it unsafe to myself and other road users, as sightlines are not very good in places, and I am a 'slow moving vehicle'.

good luck! cycle on! (if you can safely ;))

It's illegal here to bike on a road where the speed limit is 50+. I guess that isn't universal? On the route I take around here the main roads are lined with old houses so the speed limits are usually in the 30-40 range. When I eventually cross into the more nanny county next to us there is a speed camera and I feel a lot safer, plus there is usually some sort of shoulder. Now I actually appreciate speed cameras.

Halfsees

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2017, 01:11:12 PM »
As long as your asking opinions....I went to a funeral this summer of a man killed on his bike (motorcycle). Another friend of mine's husband is paralyzed from a car that crashed into his bike.
But no, I wouldn't confront a total stranger who is biking and tell them it's dangerous. That was out of line for the woman to say that to you. I just assume that people know their own risks.

Yeah, I'm not quite as naive as I sound in the first post. I know there are risks (just like there is with driving) but it just got me questioning my decisions. I ended up moving somewhere that is more isolating than I had hoped and I'm pretty much trying everything I can to make it less so. I really am not a fan of driving or exercising. Getting around by foot or bike takes care of both of those. It's just a lot harder than I hoped it would be. 

Chesleygirl

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2017, 01:14:17 PM »
As long as your asking opinions....I went to a funeral this summer of a man killed on his bike (motorcycle). Another friend of mine's husband is paralyzed from a car that crashed into his bike.
But no, I wouldn't confront a total stranger who is biking and tell them it's dangerous. That was out of line for the woman to say that to you. I just assume that people know their own risks.

Yeah, I'm not quite as naive as I sound in the first post. I know there are risks (just like there is with driving) but it just got me questioning my decisions. I ended up moving somewhere that is more isolating than I had hoped and I'm pretty much trying everything I can to make it less so. I really am not a fan of driving or exercising. Getting around by foot or bike takes care of both of those. It's just a lot harder than I hoped it would be.

Even going out walking is risky (something I enjoy doing). We have a nature preserve here and a woman was walking out there, a few months ago, and abducted. You just never know.

If I biked a lot, I'd just wear a helmet. That would curb some of the risk. And put reflectors on my bike so cars could see it at night.

Xlar

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2017, 06:23:29 PM »
I know several people that bike with a camera that is visible (on their helmet I think) and said that that makes a big difference. It is very obvious to the drivers near you that they are on video.

Carless

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2017, 07:24:21 PM »
Also consider getting an airhorn.  I had a near run-in with a construction site equipment driver exiting the work site who didn't look for anything other than cars before pulling out.  There's no way he would have heard my bell or yell.  An airhorn would be a better attention-getter.

Then again, my SO got dangerously cut off on the highway today.  Life is risk, just do your best and be cautious.

GenXbiker

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2017, 07:48:32 PM »

I do not cycle on the 55-60mph, 2-lane shoulderless roads around here. I consider it unsafe to myself and other road users, as sightlines are not very good in places, and I am a 'slow moving vehicle'.

good luck! cycle on! (if you can safely ;))

It's illegal here to bike on a road where the speed limit is 50+. I guess that isn't universal?

99% of the riding that I do is on 55 mph roads or on the shoulder of a 65 mph divided highway.

The 55 mph roads I ride on are rural with very low traffic.  Maybe 5 or 10 minutes can pass by at times without a car passing by in either direction during the afternoon or evening.  I don't listen to music and can hear them approaching from behind.

If I biked a lot, I'd just wear a helmet. That would curb some of the risk. And put reflectors on my bike so cars could see it at night.

Really, you should wear a helmet every time you bike.

BTDretire

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2017, 08:00:52 PM »
 Best advice is to make sure you are seen, even if you need a flag.
Also you need a mirror, so you are always aware of what is coming behind you.
Always know what's behind you. Be aware! Be aware!
 If possible I ride sidewalks, be aware of every drive way.
 And something I see a lot of walkers and bikers miss when crossing a road,
they don't look back to see if someone is making a right turn onto the street they are crossing.
 Watch people you will see this all the time especially with walkers.

paddedhat

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2017, 06:15:00 AM »
I can't believe that so many hard core road cyclists are still unwilling to take "Hi-vis" clothing and the LED strobes seriously. As I stated a few posts back, we live in an Amish area. Over the last few years, most Amish parents have required their school aged children to wear the high visibility, reflective construction vests while walking to school on busy roads, or riding their bikes. On a related note, a majority of the road bikers tend to wear bring jerseys and many have the incredibly useful LED strobes front and back. As a car driver in this area, the difference between a biker who makes the effort to be visible, and one out for a ride in a black or other dark color gear, is staggering. It's nothing to notice a rider with a strobe, or bright orange vest on a young Amish kid, clear across a valley. OTOH, I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.   

meghan88

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2017, 08:53:00 AM »
Best advice is to make sure you are seen, even if you need a flag.
Also you need a mirror, so you are always aware of what is coming behind you.
Always know what's behind you. Be aware! Be aware!
 If possible I ride sidewalks, be aware of every drive way.
 And something I see a lot of walkers and bikers miss when crossing a road,
they don't look back to see if someone is making a right turn onto the street they are crossing.
 Watch people you will see this all the time especially with walkers.

This.  And I never, ever assume anyone can see me.  If I hear a car coming up behind me and I don't feel safe for whatever reason, I pull over and let them pass.

I've been daily over 40 years in all kinds of weather, along all kinds of roads, in places with the worst drivers in the land, and I live, and will continue to live, to tell the tale.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2017, 09:25:17 AM »
I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

You point out the most troubling part of this whole conversation here.  In your scenario, you would be 100% at fault for the accident.  You were at fault for (admittedly) driving beyond your own capabilities.  The blame though, you are attempting to entirely foist upon the cyclist.  If an elderly or distracted driver runs over someone, they have proven themselves unworthy of exercising the right to drive and should have their license revoked.

Is it a good idea to wear reflective clothing, a helmet, and use lights while cycling?  Yes, absolutely.  Blaming a cyclist who doesn't do that for an accident though is like blaming a rape victim for being out at night.  The crime is entirely out of the hands of the victim.  It's disturbing how normalized people are to the idea that cyclists should always be at fault for careless drivers who are operating their vehicles unsafely.

Optimiser

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2017, 09:28:26 AM »
I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

You point out the most troubling part of this whole conversation here.  In your scenario, you would be 100% at fault for the accident.  You were at fault for (admittedly) driving beyond your own capabilities.  The blame though, you are attempting to entirely foist upon the cyclist.  If an elderly or distracted driver runs over someone, they have proven themselves unworthy of exercising the right to drive and should have their license revoked.

Is it a good idea to wear reflective clothing, a helmet, and use lights while cycling?  Yes, absolutely.  Blaming a cyclist who doesn't do that for an accident though is like blaming a rape victim for being out at night.  The crime is entirely out of the hands of the victim.  It's disturbing how normalized people are to the idea that cyclists should always be at fault for careless drivers who are operating their vehicles unsafely.

We have been conditioned to see things this way. It was the car manufacturers who fought hard to make cars be seen as safe and other forms of transportation to be seen as the problem. Prior to cars jaywalking wasn't a thing, it was just called walking across the street.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2017, 09:43:02 AM »
I've seen pedestrians also dressed in street camouflage - i.e. dark clothes on a dark night - darting across a street nowhere near a pedestrian crossing or corner.   There are certain streets I will not drive on at night because of suicidal pedestrians.  I know cyclists can wear whatever they want, but if they are not showing good lights they are not visible.   Cars have to have lights, running lights for daytime driving and headlights for night time.  Too many cyclists assume they are exempt - no lights, no turn signals.


sw1tch

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2017, 09:43:31 AM »
I can't believe that so many hard core road cyclists are still unwilling to take "Hi-vis" clothing and the LED strobes seriously. As I stated a few posts back, we live in an Amish area. Over the last few years, most Amish parents have required their school aged children to wear the high visibility, reflective construction vests while walking to school on busy roads, or riding their bikes. On a related note, a majority of the road bikers tend to wear bring jerseys and many have the incredibly useful LED strobes front and back. As a car driver in this area, the difference between a biker who makes the effort to be visible, and one out for a ride in a black or other dark color gear, is staggering. It's nothing to notice a rider with a strobe, or bright orange vest on a young Amish kid, clear across a valley. OTOH, I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

To top it off, all of these things are very cheap to buy.  Anytime I'm biking on shared roads (regardless of time of day or weather), I wear a reflective vest, have a blinking headlight and a blinking taillight.  Each one can be had for very cheap on ebay or amazon.  I think I spent $2 for the vest, $2 for the taillight and $10 for the headlight.  I also have the regular old reflectors on the bike as well.

I don't understand why you wouldn't have these (at a minimum) if you're going to be sharing a road with 2000+ lb vehicles.

mm1970

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2017, 10:37:02 AM »
I can't believe that so many hard core road cyclists are still unwilling to take "Hi-vis" clothing and the LED strobes seriously. As I stated a few posts back, we live in an Amish area. Over the last few years, most Amish parents have required their school aged children to wear the high visibility, reflective construction vests while walking to school on busy roads, or riding their bikes. On a related note, a majority of the road bikers tend to wear bring jerseys and many have the incredibly useful LED strobes front and back. As a car driver in this area, the difference between a biker who makes the effort to be visible, and one out for a ride in a black or other dark color gear, is staggering. It's nothing to notice a rider with a strobe, or bright orange vest on a young Amish kid, clear across a valley. OTOH, I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

To top it off, all of these things are very cheap to buy.  Anytime I'm biking on shared roads (regardless of time of day or weather), I wear a reflective vest, have a blinking headlight and a blinking taillight.  Each one can be had for very cheap on ebay or amazon.  I think I spent $2 for the vest, $2 for the taillight and $10 for the headlight.  I also have the regular old reflectors on the bike as well.

I don't understand why you wouldn't have these (at a minimum) if you're going to be sharing a road with 2000+ lb vehicles.
We do the same.  And to top it off, at Christmas, I bought led spoke lights.  We look like a Christmas tree in the dark.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2017, 11:35:08 AM »
I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

You point out the most troubling part of this whole conversation here.  In your scenario, you would be 100% at fault for the accident.  You were at fault for (admittedly) driving beyond your own capabilities.  The blame though, you are attempting to entirely foist upon the cyclist.  If an elderly or distracted driver runs over someone, they have proven themselves unworthy of exercising the right to drive and should have their license revoked.

I think you guys have touched on the most likely reason that the driver in the OP's story actually stopped to "warn" her. It can be incredibly shocking to realize, "Oh my god, I almost hit that person." And when it's something that seems to not be the driver's fault - like a curve in the road, or sun in their eyes, or dark clothing, it also occurs to them, "If I could have hit this cyclist, then how close have 100 other motorists come?"

If I were a cyclist who was getting frequent negative reactions on a specific stretch of road, I suppose I would be concerned that the reason I was getting so many negative reactions was because of how many close calls were occurring. Since people are driving behind you, you may not realize how close people are coming to injuring you.

Look at it from another perspective - Every day when I commuted, I had to stop at a toll area. During rush hour, this area would back up with people, even in the toll-tag lane. It was predictable, it happened every morning. And yet every single morning, there were close calls and accidents with people rear ending each other because they weren't paying attention and didn't give themselves enough time to stop. I would leave plenty of space between me and the person in front of me specifically so that if I were rear-ended, I could avoid ramming into the next car. Every day I prepared for this and watched my rear view mirror while cars screeched, and swerved, and sometimes crashed.

I see some bicycling roads to be similar - except you don't have a rear view mirror, so you're not seeing the chaos that's coming up behind you. It's not your fault that the stretch of road is dangerous, but that doesn't change the fact that it is dangerous.

MilesTeg

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2017, 11:53:11 AM »
I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

You point out the most troubling part of this whole conversation here.  In your scenario, you would be 100% at fault for the accident.  You were at fault for (admittedly) driving beyond your own capabilities.  The blame though, you are attempting to entirely foist upon the cyclist.  If an elderly or distracted driver runs over someone, they have proven themselves unworthy of exercising the right to drive and should have their license revoked.

Is it a good idea to wear reflective clothing, a helmet, and use lights while cycling?  Yes, absolutely.  Blaming a cyclist who doesn't do that for an accident though is like blaming a rape victim for being out at night.  The crime is entirely out of the hands of the victim.  It's disturbing how normalized people are to the idea that cyclists should always be at fault for careless drivers who are operating their vehicles unsafely.

No, the most troubling issue here is the double standard. Vehicles are HEAVILY regulated to maintain visibility (running lights of particular colors/brightness/etc.) and most jurisdictions also have heavy regulations regarding not operating a vehicle on a roadway if it is incapable of running at the prevailing speed (e.g. minimum speed limits).

Bikes should be held to the same standard.

If you are operating a bike at 10-20MPH on a 50MPH roadway without a bike lane without sufficient visibility you SHOULD be held legally liable. Just like if you were operating a golf cart or moped in a similar fashion.

The false comparison to rape victims is just that, false. It's not that the biker is "asking for it", it's that the biker is operating their bike in an unsafe manner that endangers not just themselves but others on the road.

Optimiser

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2017, 12:12:47 PM »
It's not that the biker is "asking for it", it's that the biker is operating their bike in an unsafe manner that endangers not just themselves but others on the road.

People have been using roads for low speed transportation for thousands of years. In the last 100 years, machines weighing thousands of pounds and travelling at speeds several times what was previously possible take over the roads, and now all other forms of transportation are suddenly the problem and need to make adjustments so they don't endanger themselves and others.  Seems to me the cars might be the problem.

I'm not saying you shouldn't make yourself visible when you go out biking, you absolutely should if you want to be safe. But we shouldn't blame victims when they get hurt by careless people piloting weapons of mass destruction.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 12:30:04 PM by Optimiser »

MilesTeg

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2017, 12:23:15 PM »
It's not that the biker is "asking for it", it's that the biker is operating their bike in an unsafe manner that endangers not just themselves but others on the road.

People have been using roads for low speed transportation for thousands of years. In the last 100 years, machines weighing thousands of pounds and travelling at speeds several times what was previously possible take over the roads, and now all other forms of transportation are suddenly the problem and need to make adjustments so they don't endanger themselves and others.  Seems to me the cars might be the problem.

Neither cars nor other forms of transportation are the problem. The problem is poor/non-existant civil planning to accommodate (reasonably) all vehicle types. However, that lack of planning does not excuse bikers operating their vehicles in a negligent manner on the roadways that are designed only for motor vehicles, or operating their vehicle negligently on roadways that are designed to accommodate both (e.g. not making ones self highly visible, etc.).

paddedhat

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2017, 12:39:31 PM »
I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

You point out the most troubling part of this whole conversation here.  In your scenario, you would be 100% at fault for the accident.  You were at fault for (admittedly) driving beyond your own capabilities.  The blame though, you are attempting to entirely foist upon the cyclist.  If an elderly or distracted driver runs over someone, they have proven themselves unworthy of exercising the right to drive and should have their license revoked.

Is it a good idea to wear reflective clothing, a helmet, and use lights while cycling?  Yes, absolutely.  Blaming a cyclist who doesn't do that for an accident though is like blaming a rape victim for being out at night.  The crime is entirely out of the hands of the victim.  It's disturbing how normalized people are to the idea that cyclists should always be at fault for careless drivers who are operating their vehicles unsafely.

How odd, I generally have a great respect for your input. In this case you couldn't be more wrong. Nothing I said is the least bit troubling, it's a clear expression of the realities of biking in rural areas, and risks you assume by making poor choices. I am young, attentive and quick enough in my reactions that the near collision I speak of, never put this idiot in danger. That said, you have the same shitty attitude that a lot of bicyclist have. "Reality and physics are meaningless, I have my rights, and if you turn me into a road pizza it's YOUR FAULT!" Really fucked up logic that is all too prevalent in that crowd.

So, the next car behind me is piloted by an 90 year old woman who didn't see the pale gray rider on the pale road, in the dimness of a very overcast day, until it was too late and now the biker is dead. Who gives a shit that it's technically 100% her fault? She didn't see a guy riding in her lane, while damn near perfectly camoflaged, and as a result, THEY BOTH made a tragic error, that could of been avoided if HE had a little common sense. If the same rider was riding in the same scenario, with a High-Vis Jersey, and a $10 flashing LED light in the back, he would of been visible to all, from a hundred yards back. That's the reality of it. Righteous indignation about who's fault a death or disabling injury is, is meaningless. Rural roads, particularly in on the east coast, are typically old, fast, narrow, and have very little traffic that is anything other than cars and trucks. Expecting everybody to drive as if they should anticipate a nearly invisible bicyclist, in their lane, around every blind curve, is a lovely theory, but not part of the real world.

 your use of the rape analogy is offensive, illogical and in poor taste. Your claim that the "crime is completely out of the hands of the victim" is simply horse shit. You don't ride a 30lb bike, on high speed rural roads, with the attitude that your moral authority trumps reality. It is a fairly dangerous activity, and you have a responsibility to mitigate as much of that danger as possible. There is a large volume of research that's been done on motorcycle safety, and how to improve it. Much of that work points to visibility as being a key factor. I recall one statistic from the UK that just wearing a white helmet resulted in your likelihood of being struck by another vehicle being reduced dramatically. It's a free country, and you're welcome to dress however you want on the high speed rural roads in this country. That said, logic and science make it clear that being as visible as possible to other vehicles will make you far safer.

Raenia

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2017, 12:43:12 PM »
Every time I start to convince myself that I could maybe try riding my bike to work, a thread like this pops up to dissuade me :(

GuitarStv

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2017, 12:48:44 PM »
I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

You point out the most troubling part of this whole conversation here.  In your scenario, you would be 100% at fault for the accident.  You were at fault for (admittedly) driving beyond your own capabilities.  The blame though, you are attempting to entirely foist upon the cyclist.  If an elderly or distracted driver runs over someone, they have proven themselves unworthy of exercising the right to drive and should have their license revoked.

Is it a good idea to wear reflective clothing, a helmet, and use lights while cycling?  Yes, absolutely.  Blaming a cyclist who doesn't do that for an accident though is like blaming a rape victim for being out at night.  The crime is entirely out of the hands of the victim.  It's disturbing how normalized people are to the idea that cyclists should always be at fault for careless drivers who are operating their vehicles unsafely.

No, the most troubling issue here is the double standard. Vehicles are HEAVILY regulated to maintain visibility (running lights of particular colors/brightness/etc.) and most jurisdictions also have heavy regulations regarding not operating a vehicle on a roadway if it is incapable of running at the prevailing speed (e.g. minimum speed limits).

Bikes should be held to the same standard.

There are laws regarding visiblity of bicycles.  I agree that they could use an overhaul though, typically they just involve rather useless reflectors.  I'd like better laws regarding lights and equipment, because they probably would make cyclists safer.



Can we parse the post that I was referring to for a second?

I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot!

Driver was moving at unsafe speeds because he couldn't see what was coming up in front of him.


[He] was in the driving lane

Driver assumes that all traffic should yield to his automobile . . . despite the fact that the cyclist has equal right to be there.


I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

Driver doesn't think it's a good idea to fix the real problem - elderly drivers (who are no longer able to drive safely), and distracted drivers (people who voluntarily choose to drive unsafely).


Now we have you adding in:
If you are operating a bike at 10-20MPH on a 50MPH roadway without a bike lane without sufficient visibility you SHOULD be held legally liable. Just like if you were operating a golf cart or moped in a similar fashion.

It's not that the biker is "asking for it", it's that the biker is operating their bike in an unsafe manner that endangers not just themselves but others on the road.

There already exist laws for slow moving vehicles.  They exist for pedestrians, bicycles, horses, carriages, farm equipment, construction vehicles, etc.  If you are in a car and are driving unsafely, sorry . . . you don't get to blame an accident you cause on the slower moving vehicles.  The person operating a vehicle in an unsafe manner is the person who causes the crash by driving their car beyond their own ability.

PoutineLover

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2017, 12:51:08 PM »
Every time I start to convince myself that I could maybe try riding my bike to work, a thread like this pops up to dissuade me :(
Don't be discouraged by stuff like this. Despite all the fear mongering, biking is not too dangerous when done correctly. Choosing appropriate roads, wearing a helmet, wearing high visibility clothing, using good lights and learning to bike safely are all ways to mitigate the risk. You can die driving a car or walking too, biking isn't any more risky when you take precautions. There are also tons of bikers on here to help you get started!

paddedhat

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2017, 01:11:43 PM »
Guitarstv, I have to say I thought a bit higher of you, until this. You continue to tilt at windmills here. You refuse to acknowledge that the situation on the ground, be it rural or urban bike riding, is what it is. risks are common, and typically well understood. Many of those risks can be mitigated by choices you make while riding. Yet, like many hard core bicyclists, you will not accept the facts. The elderly shouldn't be on the road, there should be no distracted driving, nobody should ever open a car door without double checking for bikes, and everybody should be hyper alert for the poor biker who can dress, act and do whatever the fuck they want because it's their "right".

I'll tell you the scene that I'm hoping will never happen in my area, but I doubt my wish will come true. It's the big groups of weekend warriors out there pretending that our tourist chocked rural roads are actually their own private road race. They can be seen in all kinds of locations, like blind curves and corners as they ride 3-4 abreast often in both lanes. One of these days there will be a vehicle that ends up slicing right through the middle of one of these groups, it will end horribly, and the wailing and bullshit will sound just like you wrote the script. It will be everybody else's fault but theirs. Tragic, totally avoidable, but hey, they don't ride in reality, they ride in a magical place where everybody else needs to mitigate the risks they face, and they will always be the victim.

zing12

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2017, 01:31:44 PM »
This thread is kind of freaking me out, I am buying a road bike from a friend soon and was going to start getting into cycling :/

MilesTeg

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2017, 01:52:24 PM »

Can we parse the post that I was referring to for a second?

I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot!


Driver was moving at unsafe speeds because he couldn't see what was coming up in front of him.

I would say your perspective is incorrect here. Unless the driver was speeding or in some way operating their vehicle in a way that is unsafe with respect to lawful traffic conditions, it's the biker moving at unsafe speeds on the roadway. The law, generally, supports my perspective here. Just not consistently for bikes.

Quote
There already exist laws for slow moving vehicles.  They exist for pedestrians, bicycles, horses, carriages, farm equipment, construction vehicles, etc.  If you are in a car and are driving unsafely, sorry . . . you don't get to blame an accident you cause on the slower moving vehicles.  The person operating a vehicle in an unsafe manner is the person who causes the crash by driving their car beyond their own ability.

The biker, riding at well below the posted limit (again, assuming the driver was not speeding), is the actor operating their vehicle in an unsafe manner an the actual causal agent of the accident.

sw1tch

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2017, 02:00:04 PM »
This thread is kind of freaking me out, I am buying a road bike from a friend soon and was going to start getting into cycling :/

Don't allow this to freak you out.  You have to take precautions just like when doing anything.

Just to let you know here are the car accident death statistics for 2015 (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/fatalityfacts/state-by-state-overview):
Quote
There were 32,166 fatal motor vehicle crashes in the United States in 2015 in which 35,092 deaths occurred. This resulted in 10.9 deaths per 100,000 people and 1.13 deaths per 100 million miles traveled. The fatality rate per 100,000 people ranged from 3.4 in the District of Columbia to 24.7 in Wyoming.  The death rate per 100 million miles traveled ranged from 0.52 in Massachusetts to 1.89 in South Carolina.

Do the above numbers "freak you out" about driving??  My guess is no.  So, why freak out about biking?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:01:38 PM by sw1tch »

Optimiser

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2017, 03:01:26 PM »

Can we parse the post that I was referring to for a second?

I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot!


Driver was moving at unsafe speeds because he couldn't see what was coming up in front of him.

I would say your perspective is incorrect here. Unless the driver was speeding or in some way operating their vehicle in a way that is unsafe with respect to lawful traffic conditions, it's the biker moving at unsafe speeds on the roadway. The law, generally, supports my perspective here. Just not consistently for bikes.

At least the way the speed limit works in my state, the posted speed is the maximum speed a driver is allowed to drive. However, if there are other conditions that would make it unsafe to drive at that speed a driver must lower their speed.

So if you have a driver who is "nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot!" then that driver is violating the rules of the road.

The cyclist also has to (at least in my state) have a rear reflector and front light in low visibility conditions, but they are not required to ride at some minimum speed to keep the roads safe.

There are some roads (again in my state) that bikes aren't allowed on, for example interstate freeways. On all other roads, bikes are allowed to be there and they are allowed to go whatever speed they want (up to the speed limit). If they are impeding traffic, that is a different issue, but that doesn't seem to be the case in the situation discussed above.

GuitarStv

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2017, 03:40:49 PM »
FWIW - I've ridden about 23000 km over the past three years.  In rain, snow, and sun.  I regularly commute to work through some busy areas in a large city.  I often ride to visit friends and family great distances away.  I like to go out for long rides and get lost, finding new ways back.  Sometimes this puts me on busier roads than expected.  Cycling isn't incredibly dangerous.  There are dangers.  It's a good idea to check with more experienced cyclists especially when you're starting out to help mitigate these risks.  I've seen a lot of stupid behaviour by everyone on the road (pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers).  Generally speaking though things aren't that bad out there.





I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot! He was stupid enough to find a head to toe outfit that was damn near exactly the color of aged blacktop (greyish black) and was in the driving lane, on a bleak cloudy day. I could easily see an elderly or distracted driver running over somebody like this, and not having a single clue as to what happened until they heard the crash, and saw the body flying.

You point out the most troubling part of this whole conversation here.  In your scenario, you would be 100% at fault for the accident.  You were at fault for (admittedly) driving beyond your own capabilities.  The blame though, you are attempting to entirely foist upon the cyclist.  If an elderly or distracted driver runs over someone, they have proven themselves unworthy of exercising the right to drive and should have their license revoked.

Is it a good idea to wear reflective clothing, a helmet, and use lights while cycling?  Yes, absolutely.  Blaming a cyclist who doesn't do that for an accident though is like blaming a rape victim for being out at night.  The crime is entirely out of the hands of the victim.  It's disturbing how normalized people are to the idea that cyclists should always be at fault for careless drivers who are operating their vehicles unsafely.

How odd, I generally have a great respect for your input. In this case you couldn't be more wrong. Nothing I said is the least bit troubling, it's a clear expression of the realities of biking in rural areas, and risks you assume by making poor choices. I am young, attentive and quick enough in my reactions that the near collision I speak of, never put this idiot in danger. That said, you have the same shitty attitude that a lot of bicyclist have. "Reality and physics are meaningless, I have my rights, and if you turn me into a road pizza it's YOUR FAULT!" Really fucked up logic that is all too prevalent in that crowd.

As a cyclist I'm vulnerable to people driving vehicles on the road.  If you want to kill me, you'll certainly kill me.  I personally do as much as I can to prevent this from happening.  At the end of the day though, if I'm following the rules of the road and you decide to kill me . . . well, it is your fault.


So, the next car behind me is piloted by an 90 year old woman who didn't see the pale gray rider on the pale road, in the dimness of a very overcast day, until it was too late and now the biker is dead. Who gives a shit that it's technically 100% her fault? She didn't see a guy riding in her lane, while damn near perfectly camoflaged, and as a result, THEY BOTH made a tragic error, that could of been avoided if HE had a little common sense. If the same rider was riding in the same scenario, with a High-Vis Jersey, and a $10 flashing LED light in the back, he would of been visible to all, from a hundred yards back. That's the reality of it. Righteous indignation about who's fault a death or disabling injury is, is meaningless. Rural roads, particularly in on the east coast, are typically old, fast, narrow, and have very little traffic that is anything other than cars and trucks. Expecting everybody to drive as if they should anticipate a nearly invisible bicyclist, in their lane, around every blind curve, is a lovely theory, but not part of the real world.

If the 90 year old woman is incapable of operating a motor vehicle safely (as demonstrated by killing someone due to bad eyesight), I certainly care about her fault.  She shouldn't be allowed to kill again.  I don't expect drivers to follow the rules of the road when I ride . . . but I certainly wish that they did.  At the end of the day, a car that decides to kill you will.  Attempting to push blame for accidents onto cyclists who are operating legally though is wrong.  It is important that we draw some attention to the commonplace negligence of many drivers.


You don't ride a 30lb bike, on high speed rural roads, with the attitude that your moral authority trumps reality.

You're right, I don't.


It is a fairly dangerous activity, and you have a responsibility to mitigate as much of that danger as possible. There is a large volume of research that's been done on motorcycle safety, and how to improve it. Much of that work points to visibility as being a key factor. I recall one statistic from the UK that just wearing a white helmet resulted in your likelihood of being struck by another vehicle being reduced dramatically. It's a free country, and you're welcome to dress however you want on the high speed rural roads in this country. That said, logic and science make it clear that being as visible as possible to other vehicles will make you far safer.

There are dangers inherent to cycling.  I think it's a good idea to mitigate risks if possible.  High viz/reflective/lighted stuff is a great idea for personal safety!  That said, not wearing hi-viz doesn't make it OK for cars to kill you.  It doesn't make it your fault if a driver is negligent.


Guitarstv, I have to say I thought a bit higher of you, until this. You continue to tilt at windmills here. You refuse to acknowledge that the situation on the ground, be it rural or urban bike riding, is what it is. risks are common, and typically well understood. Many of those risks can be mitigated by choices you make while riding. Yet, like many hard core bicyclists, you will not accept the facts.

I haven't argued that risks can't be mitigated while riding.  Actually, I completely agree with that statement.  That's why I said that you should wear bright clothing, use a helmet, and have lights.


The elderly shouldn't be on the road, there should be no distracted driving, nobody should ever open a car door without double checking for bikes, and everybody should be hyper alert for the poor biker who can dress, act and do whatever the fuck they want because it's their "right".

You appear to be very angry about this, and I'm not entirely sure why.

I didn't say that the elderly shouldn't be on the road.  I said that if the elderly can't operate their vehicle safely they shouldn't be on the road.  There shouldn't be distracted driving, but as a cyclist you're certainly going to see an awful lot of it.  Everyone should be hyper alert when operating a multi-thousand pound vehicle at speed.  You can't assume that they will be unfortunately.

I certainly didn't say that cyclists should be able to do 'whatever the fuck that they like'.  They should however, be free to ride their bikes on the road in accordance with the law.  If they're following the law and you drive into them, you're at fault (even if they weren't wearing lime green with flashing sequins.


I'll tell you the scene that I'm hoping will never happen in my area, but I doubt my wish will come true. It's the big groups of weekend warriors out there pretending that our tourist chocked rural roads are actually their own private road race. They can be seen in all kinds of locations, like blind curves and corners as they ride 3-4 abreast often in both lanes. One of these days there will be a vehicle that ends up slicing right through the middle of one of these groups, it will end horribly, and the wailing and bullshit will sound just like you wrote the script. It will be everybody else's fault but theirs. Tragic, totally avoidable, but hey, they don't ride in reality, they ride in a magical place where everybody else needs to mitigate the risks they face, and they will always be the victim.

Nobody should cycle dangerously.  It's not  a good idea to ride 3-4 abreast on a road (for a variety of reasons).  It's always a bad idea to ride in the oncoming traffic lane, but it would be particularly stupid to do it around a blind corner.  I've advocated none of this behaviour.  (As an aside though - there's nothing wrong with a large group riding in a double paceline.  It's perfectly safe, and sensible to do.)

All that I've said is that if you drive into an accident with a cyclist because you weren't paying attention, you didn't leave enough time to react while rounding a corner at speed, because your eyesight is going due to age . . . you're at fault, and they're the victim.  That should really be pretty uncontroversial.





Can we parse the post that I was referring to for a second?

I have been nearly on top of a biker, at 50 MPH, before I even saw the idiot!


Driver was moving at unsafe speeds because he couldn't see what was coming up in front of him.

I would say your perspective is incorrect here. Unless the driver was speeding or in some way operating their vehicle in a way that is unsafe with respect to lawful traffic conditions, it's the biker moving at unsafe speeds on the roadway. The law, generally, supports my perspective here. Just not consistently for bikes.

I don't know what your local laws are.  Here, if a driver is operating his motor vehicle at speeds exceeding his ability to see and react to obstacles on the road . . . the driver is at fault for the accident because he was driving dangerously.  If a car had a blown engine, was stopped ahead on the road, and paddedhat plowed into the back of it he would be at fault too.

I would be interested to see the part where it says that you're allowed to drive your car into the back of slow moving farm vehicles, construction vehicles, horse drawn carriages, etc. without fault in your jurisdiction.



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There already exist laws for slow moving vehicles.  They exist for pedestrians, bicycles, horses, carriages, farm equipment, construction vehicles, etc.  If you are in a car and are driving unsafely, sorry . . . you don't get to blame an accident you cause on the slower moving vehicles.  The person operating a vehicle in an unsafe manner is the person who causes the crash by driving their car beyond their own ability.

The biker, riding at well below the posted limit (again, assuming the driver was not speeding), is the actor operating their vehicle in an unsafe manner an the actual causal agent of the accident.

Again . . . can you post the law indicating that it is illegal/unsafe to operate a bicycle below posted speed limits?  Aside from a few laws regarding restricted highways/roadways (which of course, should be followed) I've never seen one before.

paddedhat

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Re: Biking is dangerous
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2017, 04:24:37 PM »
To several here who said that this tread made them nervous, that's a shame, but hopefully you will think the whole picture through. Unfortunately, any thread like this brings out the riders who truly believe that their "rights" trump reality. If it's a narrow, twisty, high speed road with lots of blind corners and hill crests, and no shoulder, they have a right to use the roadway like any other vehicle vehicle,  and driving 15 in a 50 zone while doing so, is also their right. They are not creating a hazard, the law is on their side. If they decide to dress in white from head to toe,  and ride in a snowstorm, they can expect to not be in danger since you have the responsibility to not run over their invisible asses, since you have responsibilities, and they have rights.  It's a sad reflection on how twisted this mindset is when I discuss the fact that I nearly hit a guy who was so effectively camoflaged that I only noticed him when I was close enough to actually see his rear reflector swaying back and forth, 15-20 yards ahead. As he rode in the driving lane of a 50 mph highway.  Then watch the "rights" advocate twist reality in to him having the right to dress in a manner that rendered him essentially invisible, and anybody on the road has a responsibility to magically sense the he exists somewhere out in the haze.  Remember the rider has no responsibility to dress or operate the bike in any reasonable manner, they only have rights. Now this mentality will often acknowledge that being well lit, visible and not riding like ass is all a good idea, but nothing the law requires them to do. If you are in a car, or a pedestrian, you have the responsibility to avoid them, end of story.

So, if you read everything and said, "well I would never do anything that stupid, and who cares if you have the right to use the road, if nobody expects you to be there and can't see you, and you are in continual danger of getting hit.  I'll stick to my hi-vis, LED lights, and not riding like an ass", you will be fine. OTOH, it you think it's more important to pontificate on all you imaginary rights as a cyclist, since being right is more import than being alive, and in one piece, well you are in a much larger club than you might imagine.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 04:29:46 PM by paddedhat »