Author Topic: The Workaholic Class  (Read 7276 times)

WageSlave

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 176
  • Location: Chicago, IL, USA
The Workaholic Class
« on: December 17, 2013, 01:22:36 PM »
Part rant, part social commentary...

I think most would agree that the big appeal of this and similar websites is the freedom aspect of financial independence (FI): do what you want when you want.  I'm sure many (including me) came here looking for a way out of a job they don't love.  But clearly if you love your job you can still pursue FI, because it turns your job into an expression of your freedom, rather the chains of your wage slavery (WS).  (I'm usually big on grey areas and the idea of the continuum, but I tend towards a binary position on FI versus WS.)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make a possibly controversial statement: if you are raising children, your FI goal is as much about your kids as it is you.  Perhaps it's even more about your kids.  The financial aspect of that should be obvious: if you're FI, your family clearly has its most basic and essential needs met.  But what about the non-material aspect of it?  A huge component of my motivation for FI is so that I can spend more time with my children.  MMM himself has stated this explicitly, numerous times, that a big motivation for him to retire was that he didn't want his job obligations to get in the way of time with his son.

I was lucky to land a position that makes achieving FI relatively easy.  That's a fancy way of saying my pay is quite high.  Part of that comes from getting in on the ground floor when the company started, but it's also due to industry norms being what they are: in this line of business (electronic trading), higher-than-average pay and big bonuses ares standard.

But the flipside of the coin is a workaholic culture.  I've only seen the work culture of one firm, but I'm told it's the unwritten rule.  Over the years, I've managed to cut my daily hours from 12 to 11, and most recently down to 10.  I feel like I couldn't have pulled that off if it weren't for my length of service and connections, as I'm now effectively in the "slacker" category.

The Antimustachian point of all this is that I'm surrounded by people who similarly have a relatively easy path to FI, but choose work.  And my perception is that this particular flavor of Antimustachianism is different from the usual variety we poke fun at in this sub-forum: as far as I can tell, no one seems to be living the lavish lifestyle that their pay enables; I don't believe there is rampant "keeping up with the Jonses" behavior.  Instead, I think it's old-fashioned workaholism.

I've nothing against being a workaholic... unless you have kids.  I'm not speaking to people who are working extra hard to make ends meet or pull themselves out of debt or undo past actions.  Or fresh grads looking get ahead early in the game.  Or people without children in general.  Rather, I'm speaking to people like my colleagues, who are, in my not-so-humble-opinion, clearly putting their work ahead of their families.  It's not material indulgence, it's work indulgence.  I think work is to many of my colleagues what new cars and bigger houses and designer clothes are to other people.  It's not like we're saving lives or building bridges or educating people... Wall Street is classic greed disguised as a profession.





JessieImproved

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 158
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Atlanta
    • Jessie : Improved
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 01:26:36 PM »
It's an interesting idea.  Before I had kids, I saw work as my "purpose".  Now I see everything BUT work that way.  Hence the goal of FIRE.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 01:33:40 PM »
A lot of workaholic types with children have stay at home spouses or the means to pay for nannies. In their eyes, they are doing this to provide for their children and so it's okay.

WageSlave

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 176
  • Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 03:54:07 PM »
A lot of workaholic types with children have stay at home spouses or the means to pay for nannies. In their eyes, they are doing this to provide for their children and so it's okay.

I added the emphasis.  Provide what?

OK, at the end of the day, it's just a matter of values.  Their values are not the same as mine.  Different strokes for different folks, I get that.

But my take on Mustachianism is that nannies, $30k preschools, $3mm mansions and a fleet of Land Rovers doesn't make anyone happier---or better off---than MMM in his 1500 square foot house and $25k/year budget.  In fact there's a whole post about it, "Avoiding Ivy League Preschool Syndrome".

I've gotten into this with one of my friends, and it's become one of those topics that I just don't talk about any more... But he is similarly career driven, complete with nannies and luxury SUVs and the mansion and the best schools in the state.  And I don't know this for a fact, but I'm fairly certain he has the bankroll to sustain all this on passive income.  So what's the point?  How can one improve what is effectively already "the best"?  Once you have all that, further increases in wealth have decreasing marginal utility.  Whereas, surely further increases in time spent with kids would have dramatically more benefit.

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 04:01:47 PM »
Hey, no argument there. :)

goodlife

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 188
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 04:42:25 PM »
I work in investment banking. There is rampant workaholism for no particular reason, most of this non-sense work could be done way more efficiently. Excluding young people just ouf of college and other childless people, here is what I think of a lot of the workaholic men in particular. For men, it is good for your reputation and advancement opportunities to be married and have kids. You are then seen as reliable, grounded and get automatic bonus points for management potential. (I personally know men who admitted that they went looking for a wife at a certain point in their carreer for simply that reason). The exact opposite is true for women. Women are then seen as unreliable and not committed to their work. I have the impression that a lot of married men with children in this industry often see their wives and children more as status symbols than anything else. There is constant bragging among such men as to how little time they spend with their families and how they get away with that by buying expensive diamonds or what not for their wives. They are very wealthy. If they wanted to be FI or wanted to quit this rat race, they could. But they don't. I think they somehow love being workaholics. I really get the impression they don't actually want to spend any time with their families and actually see that as a chore. They love working for the sake of working. So yes, I agree on all counts. Working on Wall Street is really messed up....which is the reason why I intend to escape very very soon!!!

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 05:20:07 PM »
Consider the possibility that not everyone actually likes kids, or wants to spend a lot of time with them.  The have kids either for status, or to meet family/societal expectations, then work becomes (among other things) an acceptable excuse for not spending a lot of time with them.

StarswirlTheMustached

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 475
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 07:27:50 PM »
Or, and this might be vanishingly rare, they just really, really like their jobs.

golden1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
  • Location: MA
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 06:19:17 AM »
I think that "workaholism" is just another status symbol today, a way of measuring to themselves and society how important they are.     Whether or not the work is productive and meaningful is beside the point for most people. 

WageSlave

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 176
  • Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 10:35:59 AM »
Consider the possibility that not everyone actually likes kids, or wants to spend a lot of time with them.  The have kids either for status, or to meet family/societal expectations, then work becomes (among other things) an acceptable excuse for not spending a lot of time with them.

I think it's safe to say it's reality (and not simply a possibility) that not everyone likes kids or wants to spend a lot of time with them.  And to people who feel that way and don't have kids, I say, great!

I'll even be the first to admit, I don't like a lot of other peoples' kids, and certainly, there are times I don't want to be around my own.

But if you're fundamentally not a liker of kids, yet you have them anyway for reasons cited in this thread, I have trouble writing that off with my "different strokes for different folks" philosophy.  Seems to me it cheapens life.

Jamesqf

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4038
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 12:25:03 PM »
I'll even be the first to admit, I don't like a lot of other peoples' kids...

I'm just the opposite: I like kids in small to moderate doses.  Other people's kids are great, because you can always give them back to the parents when you've had enough for now.

mm1970

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10941
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2013, 12:59:16 PM »
Quote
I've nothing against being a workaholic... unless you have kids. 

I can see this.  I'm not quite in the same industry.  But my husband and I are both engineers, and we both work in companies and industries where 45 hours+ are the norm.

Our children are 7 and 1, and we cannot do that.  I have worked PT in the past (it is frowned upon and not seen as "serious enough").

I switched back to full time but still don't work that many  hours.  And I can see the push and pull at work.  There are people I work with who work 45-55 hours a week (or more) every week.  They are frustrated and angry that I do not work those hours (I leave at 4 pm to pick up my kids every day).  They talk about how to save their PTO.

I have not worked a full 80 hours in 2 weeks since...September?  I figured that it would be easier for me to just take the damn time off when someone is sick or has an appointment or whatever.

I am at the point that I earn 5 hours of PTO every week.  So, ever since September, I work what I can.  IF I need to take time off for illness, sick kids, or a holiday, I do.  I used to try and make up those hours on nights and weekends, but I was burned out.

This means I am running low on PTO, but I am much more relaxed.  But it causes some strife at work.  I try to be very clear with my coworkers that I am using PTO every pay period to cover my absences.  In exchange - because they work > 40 hours a week, if they need to leave early some day or come in later - they don't use their PTO.  They only use it for vacations.
 
Fascinating switch, really.

C. K.

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2013, 04:08:18 PM »
I think that "workaholism" is just another status symbol today, a way of measuring to themselves and society how important they are.     Whether or not the work is productive and meaningful is beside the point for most people.

Exactly.

Ms Betterhome

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2013, 06:12:50 PM »
I have seen workaholics who definitely used it as a way to avoid spending time with their kids/partner.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3505
Re: The Workaholic Class
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2013, 09:57:59 PM »
But the flipside of the coin is a workaholic culture.
Some professions expect every person to be a workaholic, especially in the beginning of his or her career; and those tend to be the higher-paying jobs that make early retirement a possibility.  So this is a bit of a stalemate.  If you want to save and build security, you must keep your job.  To keep your job, you must work ridiculous hours. 

The world of work has changed rather significantly since I finished college.  It's a harder place, a less friendly place, a place with less loyalty (from the company and to the company) -- my husband, who is in a completely different field says he sees the same thing.  Technology has been a big part of this change.  It makes us afraid for our children. 


I've gotten into this with one of my friends, and it's become one of those topics that I just don't talk about any more... But he is similarly career driven, complete with nannies and luxury SUVs and the mansion and the best schools in the state.  And I don't know this for a fact, but I'm fairly certain he has the bankroll to sustain all this on passive income.  So what's the point?  How can one improve what is effectively already "the best"?  Once you have all that, further increases in wealth have decreasing marginal utility.  Whereas, surely further increases in time spent with kids would have dramatically more benefit.
I personally know a couple men (and one woman) who work themselves to the bone so that the spouse can stay home with the kids.  I do not personally know anyone who has a nanny, a mansion, etc.  Might be the circles in which we run.