Author Topic: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!  (Read 25129 times)

sheepstache

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Just something that aggravates me.

People say, "Yeah, apple products are expensive but they last longer than an equivalent windows computer so it's an investment."

Windows is an operating system!  They are not a hardware company!  (I know they make the xbox and some kind of tablet now, but that's not what people are talking about.  They're talking about Dell laptops, etc.)  If you want, you can put Windows on Apple hardware!  You can put the Apple OS on a Dell!  Or a better quality machine like a Thinkpad or a Lenovo!

Anyway.  I admire Apple's packaging strategy that combines their OS with consistently good quality hardware and reliable support services.  It's the right answer for a lot of people.  But the incorrect thinking it leads to bugs me.

Spork

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2013, 09:01:05 AM »

Heh... maybe the answer here is "more expensive computers have longer depreciation schedules."

NYD3030

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2013, 09:13:18 AM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"

I for the life of me can't figure out why people think this.  The screen layout and methods of interaction between the two are IDENTICAL.  There are reasons to prefer iOS, "ease of use" is not one of them.

Apple's got a great marketing team, considering their computers "last longer", "don't get viruses" and "are easier to use" than the computers with the identical hardware offered by their competitors.

sheepstache

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2013, 09:17:07 AM »

Heh... maybe the answer here is "more expensive computers have longer depreciation schedules."

Damn.  You have made me consider that they are factoring in that Apple products may have higher resale value than comparable machines on the secondary market. 

Which is messing with my delusion that I am the only thinking person in a world of sheep.

Spork

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2013, 09:20:15 AM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"


Yes.  I've had the same feeling with "Linux is hard."  Yet, I've put 3 different 75+ year olds that have never touched a computer ever on Linux boxes. 

They didn't even know they weren't using Windows (as they had no preconceived notions of what windows looks like.)

destron

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2013, 09:32:47 AM »
Whether they last longer than similar high-quality PC hardware is certainly up for debate, but my perception is that they get used for long on average than a Dell / HP / Lenovo laptop. The tendency is to buy low end PC laptops for $400-$600 which very quickly cease to be useful as a laptop due to horrible power management and batteries.

You are incorrect, though. You cannot put Mac OS on a Dell (legally, at least. Some hardware it can be hacked on to). In fact, this is one reason that Macs work as well as they do -- there is a highly restricted number of pieces of hardware that the operating system runs on so it is guaranteed to be compatible and have good drivers.

destron

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2013, 09:36:04 AM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"

At the same time, I am quite tired of hearing about how expensive iPhones are compared to XYZ Android device. The comparison is only valid if you are off contract (which I am) and using an inexpensive Android phone. A Galaxy S3 or Note or HTC XYZ costs you just as much as an iPhone. Don't want the newest iPhone and are buying on contract? There is a free or $100 option as well.

russianswinga

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2013, 11:27:50 AM »
In 2009, I purchased an iMac, an expensive product at that time, but I got it on sale. Still, it was almost 2x the price of a comparable windows machine I would have put together myself.
Just last month, I ripped out its DVD writer drive, replaced it with an SSD, and fused it with the internal hard drive to make a homebrew version of Apple's new (and awesome) fusion drive, and upgraded the memory twofold. The performance difference is staggering - I now essentially have a brand new computer.

Could I have purchased a windows machine? Yes. I would have also replaced it 2 years later, that was my normal PC replacement schedule.
THere would have been a lot of cursing and swearing throughout the ownership process. I have essentially zero complaints about my 5-year old mac.

I think that as an aspiring mustachian, my takeaway from MMM is that you don't necessarily want to buy cheap crap - buy what you NEED (I needed a reliable personal computer and my level of frustration is something that directly correlates into dollars - I'll pay more for something which makes me less frustrated), and don't throw it away and replace it the moment something new comes along. So instead of a new $1200 iMac 5 years later, I upgraded mine for $150 and will be using it until it gives up the ghost. I've mastered mac administration, am very comfortable with terminal, and have an extensive working knowledge of the deepest innards of Mac OS.

Side note: I've been doing IT for 10 years. I'm an MCSE and make a living fixing Microsoft's shitty products. I'm glad I don't take my work home with me.

hybrid

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 11:37:16 AM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"

I for the life of me can't figure out why people think this.  The screen layout and methods of interaction between the two are IDENTICAL.  There are reasons to prefer iOS, "ease of use" is not one of them.

Apple's got a great marketing team, considering their computers "last longer", "don't get viruses" and "are easier to use" than the computers with the identical hardware offered by their competitors.

Welllllllll, to be just a bit of a contrarian, I have to support lawyers who use smartphones at my firm.  I don't use a smartphone so I have no skin in the game.  And yeah, sorry, iOS is the simpler and better laid out of the two.  I've had lawyers switch from Android to iOS because they got fed up with Android.  But never the other way around.  So for me anyway those results speak for themselves.  I get that some folks really like their Android and that Android has a bigger share of the global market, but subjectively speaking I feel there is a difference in Apple's favor.

As for Apple v. Windows, there are good arguments for both.  I've found that people in the working world tend to prefer Windows because the OS isn't all that different from the Windows 95 days - they use what they know.  And that folks who have Macs just plain love their Macs.  And it's fair to say, having rebuilt so many infected machines, that Windows is more vulnerable to viruses (even if one reason may be that they are simply targeted more - that hardly matters to the user with the compromised OS).

samustache

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2013, 11:41:38 AM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"

At the same time, I am quite tired of hearing about how expensive iPhones are compared to XYZ Android device. The comparison is only valid if you are off contract (which I am) and using an inexpensive Android phone. A Galaxy S3 or Note or HTC XYZ costs you just as much as an iPhone. Don't want the newest iPhone and are buying on contract? There is a free or $100 option as well.

It's not so simple as this. iPhones are more expensive, but the subsidized rate you pay on contract is because people who keep a phone longer than 2 years or buy an Android on contract are subsidizing the iPhone users.

If you are on an expensive contract and NOT upgrading to a new iPhone every two years, you are a sucker, and half your bill is paying for everyone else who is.

madmax

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2013, 12:03:16 PM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"

I for the life of me can't figure out why people think this.  The screen layout and methods of interaction between the two are IDENTICAL.  There are reasons to prefer iOS, "ease of use" is not one of them.

Apple's got a great marketing team, considering their computers "last longer", "don't get viruses" and "are easier to use" than the computers with the identical hardware offered by their competitors.

Welllllllll, to be just a bit of a contrarian, I have to support lawyers who use smartphones at my firm.  I don't use a smartphone so I have no skin in the game.  And yeah, sorry, iOS is the simpler and better laid out of the two.  I've had lawyers switch from Android to iOS because they got fed up with Android.  But never the other way around.  So for me anyway those results speak for themselves.  I get that some folks really like their Android and that Android has a bigger share of the global market, but subjectively speaking I feel there is a difference in Apple's favor.

As for Apple v. Windows, there are good arguments for both.  I've found that people in the working world tend to prefer Windows because the OS isn't all that different from the Windows 95 days - they use what they know.  And that folks who have Macs just plain love their Macs.  And it's fair to say, having rebuilt so many infected machines, that Windows is more vulnerable to viruses (even if one reason may be that they are simply targeted more - that hardly matters to the user with the compromised OS).

Plus some of us just like Unix and don't want to use something which doesn't have good support for proprietary applications that we are forced to us because of work leaving OS X as the only viable option. I'd rather not ssh into a remote box or use a VM just to compile my code.

Jamesqf

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2013, 12:19:51 PM »
Could I have purchased a windows machine? Yes. I would have also replaced it 2 years later, that was my normal PC replacement schedule.
THere would have been a lot of cursing and swearing throughout the ownership process. I have essentially zero complaints about my 5-year old mac.

Well, that was your choice to replace every two years.  I'm still using the T61 Thinkpad that I bought in (IIRC) 2008.  (Running Linux, of course.) Zero hardware problems, except for a cooling fan that is starting to get a bit noisy (but not yet irritating enough to replace).   And I keep thinking about going to an SSD.

Spork

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 12:22:15 PM »
In 2009, I purchased an iMac, an expensive product at that time, but I got it on sale. Still, it was almost 2x the price of a comparable windows machine I would have put together myself.
...deletions for brevity...

for what it's worth, if we're running examples: I purchased an inexpensive HP laptop around 2007, loaded Linux on it and it still runs fine.  I think I might have $300-350 in it.

In other words: examples will vary wildly.

prodarwin

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 12:35:30 PM »

Could I have purchased a windows machine? Yes. I would have also replaced it 2 years later, that was my normal PC replacement schedule.
THere would have been a lot of cursing and swearing throughout the ownership process. I have essentially zero complaints about my 5-year old mac.

I don't understand this comment.  I still use a windows computer I built in September 2008... and its performance by today's standards is not bad at all (It will still outperform many $500 desktops).  It was a ~$500 machine that I upgraded the video card on about a year later.  Why would you need to replace the computer 2 years later?

I know I'm an outlier here for sure, but so are you.

FWIW, my other computer is a laptop from 2010 I got for free with Ubuntu on it.  I prefer windows, but for basic needs (web surfing, email, word processing, etc) Ubuntu is great.

madmax

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 12:38:17 PM »
When I used to live in the PC world, I used Linux on my laptops and tried to keep the hardware as OUTDATED as possible and ran the lightest Window Manager I could find in order to keep battery consumption to a minimum.

Donovan

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 12:52:57 PM »
Plus some of us just like Unix and don't want to use something which doesn't have good support for proprietary applications that we are forced to us because of work leaving OS X as the only viable option. I'd rather not ssh into a remote box or use a VM just to compile my code.

This is exactly why I run OS X (not a mac machine though, it's a hackintosh).  I've lived with linux before, but OS X manages to give me all of the fun of Unix/bash AND all of the power or proprietary music software without triple-booting my machine or storing massive VM's.  It's a beautiful thing.

As far as the original title of this thread goes, I do have to say that I have had to debug far fewer issues on my own, 6 year old mac laptop than on my fiance's 3 year old PC in the last few years. However, this may be more of a symptom of our usage habits than the efficiency of the underlying OS.

lisahi

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 01:10:38 PM »
Most people who buy laptops or desktops have very little knowledge of operating systems, don't know how to run something different than what came with their computer, and so will not optimize their machine. The case for Mac is that you don't have to optimize its hardware or use a non-standard operating system (i.e., Linux) in order to keep running well after 3 years.

As for Androids vs. iPhones -- I was issued an Android for work and I hated it. The buttons "felt" odd--there was a weird lag in responsiveness and scrolling. I tried other Android models with the same issue.

madmax

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 01:15:30 PM »
I don't like Android either - I have a Nexus 4 and it is glitchy, overheats often and lags/freezes like you said. Whenever I complain on the internet that I just need a reliable phone to make calls/send text messages, I get the answer that I am not the target demographic for an Android phone. Is it too much to ask for a phone to just work for its primary intended purpose? I mean I agree it's cool that you can unlock it using your face too, but when I wake up late because the phone switched off in the middle of the night and the alarm failed to go off, I draw the line.

Anyhow, I guess the point is whatever platform you choose (Mac vs PC, Android vs iPhone), this doesn't belong in the Wall of Shame.

CanuckStache

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 01:50:31 PM »
I'm self employed and work online. My MacBook Pro cost me around $2k at the end of 2007. I've since upgraded ram and put in an SSD and, with constant daily abuse for nearly 5 years, it works great. By far the longest I've ever owned a laptop. I still have zero need to upgrade to a new computer. Just my 2 cents.

Christof

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 02:01:40 PM »
I've a Lenovo convertible that I bought early 2009, added an SSD and feel similar. I also have an iMac bought in the same year, works well and no need to upgrade. It's not the operating system, IMO, it's a shift in usage. Most things I do require a browser or smaller apps. Ten years ago I would need to install heavy development tools, Office, and the like to get my work done (software development).

Tyler

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 02:18:59 PM »
People say, "Yeah, apple products are expensive but they last longer than an equivalent windows computer so it's an investment."

Of course, the average Apple fanboy also upgrades to every new device that comes out and never comes close to EOL-ing a product.

The upgradability (or lack thereof) of Apple computers has always left a lot to be desired for me.  I have the same basic PC that I've gradually updated one component at a time for over a decade.  If someone takes the time to learn to build and fix their own things, the life of a product takes on a new meaning. 

All that said, the Mac OS is useless for my needs (professional software at work, games at home).  And the times I've installed Windows on a Mac it's always been glitchy.  So until they fix that it's a no-go for me regardless of how much I'd like to use their HW, which is unquestionably well-designed.

hybrid

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 02:37:30 PM »
Most end users I know could buy a used Windows 7 workstation online for about $150 and reuse an existing monitor and be quite happy with the experience.  Computers are dirt cheap now, and used machines are still quite good unlike the old days when you really saw a big performance boost from year to year.  Our firm recently refreshed our four year old fleet of workstations and I bought several for friends and family.  I installed the OS from scratch and the machine is just as fast as a new one. 

Jamesqf

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 04:37:16 PM »
In any case, Apple was the first "visual" computer, and will always be the "prettier" one in any contest. They always work to make the design and look of the software as important as the function.  If you are a visual person, using a Mac is intuitive and easy.

That depends on your subjective judgement of what's pretty.  From what I've seen looking over shoulders while other people use them, they are beyond ugly.  For instance, the "fisheye" effect where the user moves the mouse around the screen and it enlarges icons &c is enough to make me want to toss my cookies.

SnackDog

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2013, 04:41:50 PM »
Unless you are earning money using it, there has never been anything frugal about Apple hardware. Nobody on this board should own any. If you do, trade it for cheaper stuff!!

destron

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2013, 05:13:52 PM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"

At the same time, I am quite tired of hearing about how expensive iPhones are compared to XYZ Android device. The comparison is only valid if you are off contract (which I am) and using an inexpensive Android phone. A Galaxy S3 or Note or HTC XYZ costs you just as much as an iPhone. Don't want the newest iPhone and are buying on contract? There is a free or $100 option as well.

It's not so simple as this. iPhones are more expensive, but the subsidized rate you pay on contract is because people who keep a phone longer than 2 years or buy an Android on contract are subsidizing the iPhone users.

If you are on an expensive contract and NOT upgrading to a new iPhone every two years, you are a sucker, and half your bill is paying for everyone else who is.

No, they really aren't more expensive. Just look at how much unlocked Android phones cost on amazon.

HTC One $699
HTC x920e $685
Samsung galaxy S4 i9595 $672

BlueMR2

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 06:25:56 PM »
Windows is an operating system!  They are not a hardware company!  (I know they make the xbox and some kind of tablet now, but that's not what people are talking about.  They're talking about Dell laptops, etc.)  If you want, you can put Windows on Apple hardware!  You can put the Apple OS on a Dell!  Or a better quality machine like a Thinkpad or a Lenovo!

On the OS side, Windows out lasts Mac OS X quite handily.  XP support is continuing unitl 2014 I believe, that's a solid 12 years.  OS X they only support 2-3 versions back with a release almost every year.

On the hardware side, a Mac is certainly better than those Dells that people buy and throw away every couple of years.  Even better than HP, which is fairly decent.  But yeah, compare it to a premium computer like Lenovo's Thinkpad line and the Mac comes up short (while still costing more).

I do a lot of computer work on all the major platforms.  Most people buy computers entirely the wrong way.  First, figure out the software you need, then figure out the OS, and finally select the brand/model that will run that for as long as you can afford (spend the most for the machine that you possibly can).  Most people do exactly the opposite, picking a machine that's super cheap and trying to shoehorn on software that it won't run well.  Others are just fanboys and buy their favorite brand without shopping around and then try to cobble together some software packages that don't quite do what they want.  :-)

Me, I've got *nix, Windows, and Mac at work.  Use all 3 every day.  At home, I'm Windows only at the moment.  I've had *nix (of various flavors), but none currently suit my need.  Same for Mac, I've had OS 9 and OS X, but they just don't get the jobs done that I need as well as Windows does right now.  Always subject to change on the next go 'round!

Spork

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 06:30:12 PM »
In any case, Apple was the first "visual" computer, and will always be the "prettier" one in any contest. They always work to make the design and look of the software as important as the function.  If you are a visual person, using a Mac is intuitive and easy.

That depends on your subjective judgement of what's pretty.  From what I've seen looking over shoulders while other people use them, they are beyond ugly.  For instance, the "fisheye" effect where the user moves the mouse around the screen and it enlarges icons &c is enough to make me want to toss my cookies.

It also depends on what's first.  Xerox had bitmap displays back in the 70s and 80s.  Apollo had cool unix based Display Manager machines back in 1981.  But I think I am being overly literal here...

TwoWheels

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2013, 08:23:11 PM »
Could I have purchased a windows machine? Yes. I would have also replaced it 2 years later, that was my normal PC replacement schedule.
THere would have been a lot of cursing and swearing throughout the ownership process. I have essentially zero complaints about my 5-year old mac.

Well, that was your choice to replace every two years.  I'm still using the T61 Thinkpad that I bought in (IIRC) 2008.  (Running Linux, of course.) Zero hardware problems, except for a cooling fan that is starting to get a bit noisy (but not yet irritating enough to replace).   And I keep thinking about going to an SSD.

My Thinkpad T60 is 6 years old and going strong. The fan seems to be the only weak point on Thinkpads - I had to replace mine a few years ago and a couple people I know have had the same problem. And my replacement fan started making noise again several months ago. >.< Still, though, they're fantastic machines. Very durable and well made.

Apple makes designer computers. I wouldn't buy one for the same reason I wouldn't buy a fancy sports car. Plus (and this is really a matter of personal preference) the UI has always driven me nuts.

rtrnow

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2013, 07:50:01 AM »
Not to pull out the whole iOS v Android thing, but I get very irritated with a similar argument, "iPhones are just so much easier to use!"

I for the life of me can't figure out why people think this.  The screen layout and methods of interaction between the two are IDENTICAL.  There are reasons to prefer iOS, "ease of use" is not one of them.

Apple's got a great marketing team, considering their computers "last longer", "don't get viruses" and "are easier to use" than the computers with the identical hardware offered by their competitors.

Welllllllll, to be just a bit of a contrarian, I have to support lawyers who use smartphones at my firm.  I don't use a smartphone so I have no skin in the game.  And yeah, sorry, iOS is the simpler and better laid out of the two.  I've had lawyers switch from Android to iOS because they got fed up with Android.  But never the other way around.  So for me anyway those results speak for themselves.  I get that some folks really like their Android and that Android has a bigger share of the global market, but subjectively speaking I feel there is a difference in Apple's favor.

As for Apple v. Windows, there are good arguments for both.  I've found that people in the working world tend to prefer Windows because the OS isn't all that different from the Windows 95 days - they use what they know.  And that folks who have Macs just plain love their Macs.  And it's fair to say, having rebuilt so many infected machines, that Windows is more vulnerable to viruses (even if one reason may be that they are simply targeted more - that hardly matters to the user with the compromised OS).

Totally agree with this point. Android devices are NOT as easy to use. I have to support people on both and the iOS devices are so much more user friendly for most (especially new to smartphone) people. Android is more open and potentially more powerful, but for someone who just wants an easy straight forward smartphone experience I tell them to go iphone every time. I like Android bc I like to tinker and mess with stuff a lot. Most people want to make calls, check email, and browse the web. For that get the iphone and you'll be happier.

Also, I don't get the constant apple hate. I switched to Apple products about 4 years ago and won't look back. I still support windows machines but my macs have been rock solid. I just hate the general notion that if you have a mac you're a fanboy or wasting money. I have the 13" Air (my company bought it so that's nice but I would buy it myself). This thing is great, battery life, speed, etc is awesome. You can get a comparable windows machine but it's the same price. I'm speaking purely for laptops here. For a desktop, sure get the $200 windows machine.

lisahi

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2013, 08:03:51 AM »
I used Windows-based PCs my whole life up until my mid-20s. I swore up and down I wouldn't switch to Mac. I saw them as computers for dummies and computers for those who like pretty things.

Then my Dad got a Mac.

After using it a few times and figuring out where everything was, I realized I liked it better than my PCs. It was faster, it was more intuitive. Now I only own Macs. Honestly, the only thing I miss about PCs is that they came with two-button mouses; I have to go out and buy a mouse for Mac that can right-click.

I still use PCs at work--they run Windows 7 which, sadly, has crashed on me multiple times since they upgraded the OS not 6 months ago (it crashed before the upgrade, too). I cannot modify my work computer to prevent that from happening. I can't even intall anything on my own. Just this basic out-of-the-box Dell computer with Windows 7 is near crap.

sherr

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2013, 08:29:09 AM »
And I keep thinking about going to an SSD.

Oh I'd recommend it. I have a small SSD with OS (linux) and applications installed on it, and a disk drive for large file storage. The general performance difference is significant, and if you're doing filesystem-intensive work on a regular basis (like compiling code) you will fall absolutely in love. At least I did.

rtrnow

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2013, 08:37:37 AM »
Honestly, the only thing I miss about PCs is that they came with two-button mouses; I have to go out and buy a mouse for Mac that can right-click.

My favorite thing about my macs is the touchpad. I love the different swipes, etc. I found my self reaching over to my laptop even when it was connected to external mouse, keyboard, and monitor. Finally, I picked up the bluetooth trackpad, haven't used/needed/wanted a traditional mouse since.

NYD3030

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2013, 09:11:30 AM »
After reading through this thread... I still don't get how it's "easier" to touch the square icons arranged in a grid with your finger in iOS than Android!  If you drew a crayon rendition of each OS on a piece of paper, they would look identical.  The responses above seem to indicate that iOS is more reliable and easier to support, which both make sense, as iOS doesn't have custom skins imposed by manufacturers and comes with fewer levers to inadvertently pull and mess your system up.  But I still don't see "easier to use."

I wouldn't say I'm an apple hater - I had a 2007 MBP that I loved and I used regularly through 2012.  I did have to take it in for multiple repairs, including a blown mobo that, had it gone one month later and been out of warranty, would have cost me $1,200 to replace.  I also enjoy building my own system, which isn't an option Apple will let me use.

NumberCruncher

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2013, 09:22:28 AM »
Anyway.  I admire Apple's packaging strategy that combines their OS with consistently good quality hardware and reliable support services.

Support services (if you get Apple care, at least) are great from what I've heard, but in terms of actual reliability, not sure if they're top of the heap: http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_laptop_reliability_1109.pdf That's the only actual data I've seen, but it's also slightly dated now.

*edit: but yes, it is funny how it's always windows vs apple!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 09:24:10 AM by NumberCruncher »

NYD3030

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2013, 09:29:03 AM »
Oh, funny thing - on my 07 MBP mentioned above - you guys would have gotten a kick out of the total disgust I got at the Genius Bar when my "Genius" discovered the boot camp volume on my HDD with XP installed on it.  It was like I farted in an elevator.

BlueMR2

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2013, 09:58:15 AM »
My favorite thing about my macs is the touchpad. I love the different swipes, etc. I found my self reaching over to my laptop even when it was connected to external mouse, keyboard, and monitor. Finally, I picked up the bluetooth trackpad, haven't used/needed/wanted a traditional mouse since.

I absolutely *hate* the Mac touchpads.  It's too easy to bump them funny and have all kinds of wacky unexpected things happen.  Plus, after about an hour or so of use my fingertips get dried out enough that the touchpad stops responding.  For laptop use I prefer the Thinkpad pointer stick.  If I'm at a desk, I need a mouse.

minimalist

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2013, 10:34:16 AM »
Just something that aggravates me.

People say, "Yeah, apple products are expensive but they last longer than an equivalent windows computer so it's an investment."

Windows is an operating system!  They are not a hardware company!  (I know they make the xbox and some kind of tablet now, but that's not what people are talking about.  They're talking about Dell laptops, etc.)  If you want, you can put Windows on Apple hardware!  You can put the Apple OS on a Dell!  Or a better quality machine like a Thinkpad or a Lenovo!

Anyway.  I admire Apple's packaging strategy that combines their OS with consistently good quality hardware and reliable support services.  It's the right answer for a lot of people.  But the incorrect thinking it leads to bugs me.

All Macs are high quality computers.  I would guess that about 10% of PCs are high quality, such as higher-end Lenovo (ThinkPad), VAIO, Asus, Samsung, etc., and they retail for about the same as comparable Macs but tend to have better sales. Macs do go on sale/clearance too; I bought a brand new 13" MacBook Air for $650 on clearance at Best Buy this year.

rtrnow

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2013, 10:42:48 AM »
After reading through this thread... I still don't get how it's "easier" to touch the square icons arranged in a grid with your finger in iOS than Android!  If you drew a crayon rendition of each OS on a piece of paper, they would look identical.  The responses above seem to indicate that iOS is more reliable and easier to support, which both make sense, as iOS doesn't have custom skins imposed by manufacturers and comes with fewer levers to inadvertently pull and mess your system up.  But I still don't see "easier to use."


Ok, if using is nothing more than touching the screen, but that is really narrowly construing "use" IMO. How about an easier user experience if you like that better. For example, I've seen several Android users complaining about battery life. It's because there is stuff running in the background. There are several things to check and then disable/kill different apps. On the iphone it tends to just kill things on its own. How about there are different places to get apps instead of one central app store for iOS. There's just a couple of examples.

NYD3030

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2013, 11:15:47 AM »
After reading through this thread... I still don't get how it's "easier" to touch the square icons arranged in a grid with your finger in iOS than Android!  If you drew a crayon rendition of each OS on a piece of paper, they would look identical.  The responses above seem to indicate that iOS is more reliable and easier to support, which both make sense, as iOS doesn't have custom skins imposed by manufacturers and comes with fewer levers to inadvertently pull and mess your system up.  But I still don't see "easier to use."


Ok, if using is nothing more than touching the screen, but that is really narrowly construing "use" IMO. How about an easier user experience if you like that better. For example, I've seen several Android users complaining about battery life. It's because there is stuff running in the background. There are several things to check and then disable/kill different apps. On the iphone it tends to just kill things on its own. How about there are different places to get apps instead of one central app store for iOS. There's just a couple of examples.

I don't really see "many places to buy apps instead of one place" as a disadvantage, and even then, is it "easier" to touch the app store icon with your finger than it is to touch the Google Play icon with your finger?

I'm talking strictly about ease of of the physical product and UI, which to me, seem almost identical.  Yet I hear people say "It's easier to learn to use an iPhone."  People like my mom.  I still haven't seen an argument for why old ladies can figure out iOS but not Android, even though it seems to be a commonly held belief.  At least among old ladies.

Undecided

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2013, 12:05:46 PM »
After reading through this thread... I still don't get how it's "easier" to touch the square icons arranged in a grid with your finger in iOS than Android!  If you drew a crayon rendition of each OS on a piece of paper, they would look identical.  The responses above seem to indicate that iOS is more reliable and easier to support, which both make sense, as iOS doesn't have custom skins imposed by manufacturers and comes with fewer levers to inadvertently pull and mess your system up.  But I still don't see "easier to use."


Ok, if using is nothing more than touching the screen, but that is really narrowly construing "use" IMO. How about an easier user experience if you like that better. For example, I've seen several Android users complaining about battery life. It's because there is stuff running in the background. There are several things to check and then disable/kill different apps. On the iphone it tends to just kill things on its own. How about there are different places to get apps instead of one central app store for iOS. There's just a couple of examples.

I don't really see "many places to buy apps instead of one place" as a disadvantage, and even then, is it "easier" to touch the app store icon with your finger than it is to touch the Google Play icon with your finger?

I'm talking strictly about ease of of the physical product and UI, which to me, seem almost identical.  Yet I hear people say "It's easier to learn to use an iPhone."  People like my mom.  I still haven't seen an argument for why old ladies can figure out iOS but not Android, even though it seems to be a commonly held belief.  At least among old ladies.

But you've got at least one person on here who is just speaking from his tech support (of perhaps-non-tech users) role, saying that people do, in his experience, only make the move in one direction. I know that doesn't hold true in an absolute sense, but it may be a useful sample. So perhaps it's not about a limited number of specific significant factors, but about a large number of small factors that add up to something. As much as people like to say that correlation doesn't equal causation, they forget the corollary that our inability to pinpoint causation doesn't mean that an effect doesn't exist.

samustache

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2013, 05:59:01 PM »
HTC One $699
HTC x920e $685
Samsung galaxy S4 i9595 $672

These are all 64 GB - the iphone 5 64 GB is $850 off contract. Closer than I thought though!

jamccain

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2013, 12:16:45 AM »

In any case, Apple was the first "visual" computer, and will always be the "prettier" one in any contest. They always work to make the design and look of the software as important as the function.  If you are a visual person, using a Mac is intuitive and easy.

The part I bolded in the quote...this is what a victim of marketing (and/or propaganda) sounds like.  Parroting what everyone else says about the product regardless of truth.

As far as being "prettier" the new iOS is changing to look nearly IDENTICAL to Andriod...so what are we to believe?  Is the current iOS look out of date?  Does Android simply look better so it needs to be copied?  Apple raises a lot of questions, none of them flattering as far as I can tell, with it's bold new design. 

I own some of both, each has their advantages, but I reject the Apple is better argument because it's, in my experience, made by people who are more concerned about the brand in their hand and how it reflects on them and their value set, and less to do with the actual performance of the device. 

One thing I will concede though is many people talk about Android while never actually using a pure up to date Android OS.  They are often using 1) an out of date version 2) a user interface that is bloatware and not pure Android.  I do appreciate that Apple keeps all their people on the same version and doesn't have UI's on top of their iOS. 

rtrnow

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 12:53:57 PM »
After reading through this thread... I still don't get how it's "easier" to touch the square icons arranged in a grid with your finger in iOS than Android!  If you drew a crayon rendition of each OS on a piece of paper, they would look identical.  The responses above seem to indicate that iOS is more reliable and easier to support, which both make sense, as iOS doesn't have custom skins imposed by manufacturers and comes with fewer levers to inadvertently pull and mess your system up.  But I still don't see "easier to use."


Ok, if using is nothing more than touching the screen, but that is really narrowly construing "use" IMO. How about an easier user experience if you like that better. For example, I've seen several Android users complaining about battery life. It's because there is stuff running in the background. There are several things to check and then disable/kill different apps. On the iphone it tends to just kill things on its own. How about there are different places to get apps instead of one central app store for iOS. There's just a couple of examples.

I don't really see "many places to buy apps instead of one place" as a disadvantage, and even then, is it "easier" to touch the app store icon with your finger than it is to touch the Google Play icon with your finger?

I'm talking strictly about ease of of the physical product and UI, which to me, seem almost identical.  Yet I hear people say "It's easier to learn to use an iPhone."  People like my mom.  I still haven't seen an argument for why old ladies can figure out iOS but not Android, even though it seems to be a commonly held belief.  At least among old ladies.

As I said, I'm talking about the user experience not just touching the screen. You're missing my point. I think multiple places to get apps is cool, but that adds a layer of learning and things to install. Thus it's more to learn, steeper learning curve, etc.

The iphone is more logically laid out as you go deeper into apps, menus etc. The iphone is less customizable which makes it easier to learn and use. You are approaching it from a techy type attitude. I like Android too bc it's more customizable. I'm not buying my mom an Android for the exact same reason. It's not that older people can't figure it out, it's that a lot don't want too. We (I) shouldn't just pick on an age group either. Plenty of people want a product that is simple and just works. The iphone is better in that regard. I think you're just wanting to argue. That or you haven't actually spent a lot of time with both types of devices.

sheepstache

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2013, 01:15:31 PM »
You are incorrect, though. You cannot put Mac OS on a Dell (legally, at least. Some hardware it can be hacked on to). In fact, this is one reason that Macs work as well as they do -- there is a highly restricted number of pieces of hardware that the operating system runs on so it is guaranteed to be compatible and have good drivers.

Ah ha, you know, my husband was ready with his usual long answer when I asked him to confirm this and it appears I shouldn't have cut him off.  But yes, I meant technically and was ignoring the legal aspect. 


To be clear in case it wasn't before, I'm not trying to give a hard time to every mac user.  Just those who are sloppy reasoners or confuse average consumer behavior with something that is inherent in the product.

Ashcons

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2013, 04:32:41 PM »
My wife's Macbook was, ironically, a lemon.  /zing

msilenus

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2013, 09:51:47 PM »
My last laptop was a Dell Latitude C400 that I got in 2002 and lasted me ten years.  I haven't felt the need to replace it, since I have the use of a laptop from work.

My desktop is another Dell, which I use for gaming.  It just turned six.  I think I can get another six month out of it at least.

Micheal

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2013, 10:25:21 PM »
Glad to know that Im not the only one annoyed by that statement.  There is no such thing as a "Windows PC".  Also if you look at the hardware in comparable Macs and PCs you will no longer find a difference they all run on the same hardware, apple just charges more for the name.  The only change is in Software, and even that is not so different anymore.  As a matter of fact I have a PC that dual boots OSX and Windows, and another that is running Mint.  The hardware difference = none.  The best performer is the Linux machine.

livetogive

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2013, 11:55:38 AM »
Semi-resurrecting this post because I think my experience is relevant:

I work 2 jobs and subsequently have 3 laptops a lot of the time.  OSX is hands down easier, faster, more stable, and lasts longer before doing weird stuff than windows machines.  I'm basing this on my experience with 10.6 and 10.7 vs XP, ME, Vista and windows 8.

I had my last Mac for 5 years and the osx environment was still fast enough to compile or run heavy quant, but the windows installs were all toast and had to be redone/re imaged two or three times.

I'm currently re imaging osx for the first time ever, and that's because I crashed my Hack mini with some scripts to set up automatic downloading that ended up not being as good as I had initially hoped.  Compare that with an XP or Vista box slowing down and crashing in the same time frame from only basic use.

willn

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2013, 12:03:54 PM »
At my organization we have several dozen Macbooks, a dozen iMacs, some Airs.  About 40 Lenovo laptops, 75 Dell desktops.

By far the highest rate of hardware failure we have is the Macs.  Just had an iMac screen get wierd and shadowy and unusable 2 days after warranty expiration.  Currently have a Macbook with a bad hard drive.

Could EASILY be an anamoly. I'd say they are all highly dependable and there's no meaningful conclusion to be had from one person's experience, even when you see dozens of the things.




cdub

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Re: Apple computers do not last longer than "windows computers"!
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2013, 02:14:09 PM »
using a Mac is intuitive and easy.

Well - there's NOTHING more intuitive and easy than my  Chromebook. If you know how use the Chrome browser, you can use a Chromebook.

If you have a Gmail account use the Chrome browser you can literally open a Chromebook you've never used before and INSTANTLY  have all of your bookmarks and settings from your other computer. First time computer setup is under a minute.

It has incredible battery life, cold boots instantly, no software to update, zero viruses, zero malware, and gets FASTER and BETTER over time. Literally.

In the 2 years I've owned this thing (I have the original white and black Samsung Chromeboook - not the ARM one they're selling now)  it's gotten much faster and better as Google pumps out new versions of Chrome OS every 6 weeks or so (for free) that add new features and make it perform better.

They are even releasing native Chrome apps now which act like regular native apps - they work offline, sync to the cloud - and they work on any device that runs the Chrome browser.

I really want a Chromebook Pixel - but I'll have to wait until this one dies and it shows no sign of doing that. By that time that happens I can probably get the original Pixel for a couple hundred bucks as everyone else would have upgraded to the latest and greatest.

Check one out at Best Buy or get a used one on CL - you won't regret it. (They cost $200-250 brand new)