Author Topic: Bank of Mom and Dad...  (Read 6734 times)

moof

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Bank of Mom and Dad...
« on: March 21, 2017, 12:03:15 PM »
Guy opens with always priding himself with being self sufficient, then chronicles all the mooching he did off his parents chasing his "dreams" and being anything but.  Then he ends with saying he wouldn't hesitate to mooch some more if the need arose, like it was some badge of honor to be able to easily swallow your price or something.  Stomach turning to read.  Hopefully he plans to cover his parents in retirement now that their plans are undoubtedly derailed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/my-parents-supported-me-until-i-was-29-2017-3

By time I was 29 I'd been working for 8 years, paid off all my student loans, almost entirely self funded our wedding and honeymoon, and paid down my new wife's old credit card balances.  My parents did kick in a house warming gift of some appliance money at 29, but I was 10 years beyond any regular support in life and well beyond any expectation of support as well.

farmecologist

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 12:22:17 PM »

Yikes - I hope my kids don't see this!  :-)

ketchup

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 12:26:27 PM »
Gah, that's awful.  I was out of my parents' house at 21, on my own for everything except health insurance, which finally dropped off at 24.  I (26 now) just paid off my first house (now a rental), own a second house (primary residence now), have a good job, helped my girlfriend build her successful business, have contributed to my 401k since I've been eligible, and generally Have A Grip On Real Life.  And plenty my age are leagues ahead of that.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 12:33:34 PM »
I have a friend (45 y/o) who was boasting about how after 5 years they already had 60% equity in their house.

Turns out her parents put down 50% down payment for her.

(Now- she has a live in disabled brother, and will for life- I'm not begrudging her that her parents chose to help with the house as 'trade' for when they couldn't take care of her brother any longer; but seriously; I'd have 100% equity in my house if someone paid half of it from the start!)

Slee_stack

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 02:00:51 PM »
I love 'The author is not pictured' caption.

It really is the author isn't it!

slugline

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 03:53:05 PM »
I love 'The author is not pictured' caption.

It really is the author isn't it!

One of my modern pet peeves is that online editors are frightened of running any unillustrated articles -- to the point where they will use stock photos that have no real connection to the stories they accompany. This is one of those times, I'm sure.

Dave1442397

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 05:38:02 PM »
We have friends who live in a nice house (maybe $550k range around here, southern NJ) and have done some things that had me wondering where the money came from.

I was talking to the wife one day and she said her brother (late 40s) is living rent free in her father's old house here in our town, and has been since the father moved out west around ten years ago.

She said she couldn't be mad at him because her father comes from a rich family and had paid 50% of her house when they bought it. I'm sure there's been plenty of more cash given to her over the years. Also, her older two kids have not left home. One is mid 20s, the other must be closer to 30. I guess life is good.

Hargrove

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 05:43:41 PM »
Unfortunately, clickbait is everywhere because it works, and stock photos are everywhere because we loves us some photos.

The interesting thing in this article is the change that's happening that kids aren't embarrassed to stay in the house at 18 or 24 or 29 anymore.

We are free to take purely worthless degrees if we want, because there is no stress testing the ability to repay a degree in basket weaving. So, many get their basket weaving diploma; it doesn't make ends meet, and they suddenly have to figure out something else. Whoops.

It's not their fault an army of well-paid administrators and teachers said "sign for this unfathomable amount of money that you don't understand and it'll all work out once you get your degree!" However, the chain has to break somewhere. It can be hard for people who don't own their situations to have kids and teach them to own their own situations.

talltexan

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2017, 08:21:38 AM »
35-year-old, and I did have some help from my parents during the graduate school years.

I agree that it's frustrating to try to compete against these families for housing. But consider that--were it not for helping their children secure housing and educations--these older parents would be buying totally unmustachian extravagances.

Now that my parents are in their 60's, they just rented a Cadillac to drive around the Northeast. Perhaps helping me buy some essentials would actually be more in line with the mustache philosophy.

infogoon

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2017, 08:48:32 AM »
The interesting thing in this article is the change that's happening that kids aren't embarrassed to stay in the house at 18 or 24 or 29 anymore.

Is that really bad?

I mean, obviously we don't want our kids to be slugs who can't make it on their own, but a friend of mine is one of the children in a very tight-knit Italian-American family where the children generally don't move out until they're married. He and his siblings all lived at home into their late 20s, which they spent finishing college and starting their careers -- and banking a ton of money along the way. The philosophy was basically "why would I pay rent on an apartment when I'm going to be hanging out here with the family all the time anyway?"

Slee_stack

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2017, 10:06:45 AM »
The interesting thing in this article is the change that's happening that kids aren't embarrassed to stay in the house at 18 or 24 or 29 anymore.

Is that really bad?

I mean, obviously we don't want our kids to be slugs who can't make it on their own, but a friend of mine is one of the children in a very tight-knit Italian-American family where the children generally don't move out until they're married. He and his siblings all lived at home into their late 20s, which they spent finishing college and starting their careers -- and banking a ton of money along the way. The philosophy was basically "why would I pay rent on an apartment when I'm going to be hanging out here with the family all the time anyway?"
In your example, maybe No, maybe Yes.

It is a problem when people begin to feel entitled to other people's wealth and/or not chipping in or contributing themselves.

As soon as you lose every iota of shame about being a burden to someone else, you have become a socialist parasite.  Without any sense of shame, there will be little motivation to do anything for yourself, much less develop personal accountability.  Once normalized, you end up with a long term deadbeat with a PhD in Externalization.  That is an incredibly bad thing.

I'm not saying 'Never move in w/ Mom and Dad'.

I'm saying 'Don't pretend you are not a burden.  Mom and Dad love you and want to help you.  Feel shame that you have become this burden and that you will do everything in your power to minimize it so you can return your love and appreciation to Mom and Dad!'

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2017, 10:57:09 AM »
It is a problem when people begin to feel entitled to other people's wealth and/or not chipping in or contributing themselves.

As soon as you lose every iota of shame about being a burden to someone else, you have become a socialist parasite.  Without any sense of shame, there will be little motivation to do anything for yourself, much less develop personal accountability.  Once normalized, you end up with a long term deadbeat with a PhD in Externalization.  That is an incredibly bad thing.

I'm not saying 'Never move in w/ Mom and Dad'.

I'm saying 'Don't pretend you are not a burden.  Mom and Dad love you and want to help you.  Feel shame that you have become this burden and that you will do everything in your power to minimize it so you can return your love and appreciation to Mom and Dad!'

It's the loss of the sense of shame that marks a person's transition into the entitlement class.

vivophoenix

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2017, 11:18:32 AM »
It is a problem when people begin to feel entitled to other people's wealth and/or not chipping in or contributing themselves.

As soon as you lose every iota of shame about being a burden to someone else, you have become a socialist parasite.  Without any sense of shame, there will be little motivation to do anything for yourself, much less develop personal accountability.  Once normalized, you end up with a long term deadbeat with a PhD in Externalization.  That is an incredibly bad thing.

I'm not saying 'Never move in w/ Mom and Dad'.

I'm saying 'Don't pretend you are not a burden.  Mom and Dad love you and want to help you.  Feel shame that you have become this burden and that you will do everything in your power to minimize it so you can return your love and appreciation to Mom and Dad!'

It's the loss of the sense of shame that marks a person's transition into the entitlement class.

I don't know if it is healthy, to tell young adults to feel shame, for using help, that their family willingly gives. esp, when it doesn't use up many resources. why do you think to stay, with your parents, and let them support you financially,  automatically means you are a burden?

sounds to me like you are letting your own judgments color this whole argument. but more likely you are letting societies judgment color your own beliefs

why do you get a gold star for living apart from your family?
are you a better person if you do everything on your own?

my sister stayed at home for like $50/month to finish grad school.

Adult children living at home:


  • rarely increases rent/mortgage costs for parents, they usually stay in their childhood rooms or even basements.
    rarely increase utilities, no increase in the internet bill, the heating bill or others.( might increase water bill, and the slight increase in the electric bill if doing laundry in the home)
    often provides relief for empty nesters
    often promotes closeness and make parents better while helping out



in fact, until recently young people often stayed at home until married.
why do people find it necessary to shame people, for relying on willing family members? maybe if we heard about his parents going into debt or suffering, as a result, this would be a real issue.

also, people using the argument that they should be saving their money rather than spending it on him: we do not know their situation.at what point should you stop hoarding money, for money's sake? they have no debt, and want to help their adult kid. who cares


it sounds like a lot of people support bootstrapping out of some place of misplaced pride, or even jealousy






« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 11:50:59 AM by vivophoenix »

marcela

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2017, 11:41:14 AM »
I moved back in with my parents after I decided grad school wasn't for me. Lived with them for 3 years until I got married. My sister lived with them through college, her masters and moved out at 27. My parents loved it. Both of them still worked, but their hours were opposite, so it was nice having someone else in the house for company. I paid some of the utilities, bought groceries and did things around the house like cooking/cleaning/laundry which took some of the burden off my mom (Dad does not do these things. These are women's work. *eyeroll*) My parent's never charged me rent as I was making minimum wage and they wanted me to have savings for when I did move out.

You might think that I was a socialistic parasite burden on my parents, but they took me in joyfully. The same way I will joyfully open my home to them someday when they need it. To me, this is what family is about. Helping each other in times of stress.

talltexan

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2017, 12:53:44 PM »
The frustrating thing is when 60-year old parents are providing $100,000 transfers to their children to be house down payments, raising the price of housing for people in their late 20's who might not have been able to accumulate this large a nut. Houses are priced above what would happen naturally, damaging potential house-buyers.

Cassie

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2017, 12:58:52 PM »
As a few others have noted sometimes it is a win-win for both parent and child. A few years ago my son and his wife were going to be traveling a lot so gave up their apartment. Well we wanted to travel too but have 4 dogs. So they moved in for 16 months and we had built in doggy sitters when we went away. They bought their own food and helped with housework, etc.  It did not increase our expenses at all and I grew very close to my DIL which is  priceless. Since both parties were gone a fair amount we actually were not in the house at the same time for all of the 16 months.

Chris22

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2017, 01:02:50 PM »
The frustrating thing is when 60-year old parents are providing $100,000 transfers to their children to be house down payments, raising the price of housing for people in their late 20's who might not have been able to accumulate this large a nut. Houses are priced above what would happen naturally, damaging potential house-buyers.

If parents are providing $100k transfers at 60 years old, there's a good chance that the kids would be inheriting that money in another 15-20 years anyways.  I haven't received 6 figures, but I've received 5-figures (unsolicited, by the way) and the reasoning is always "I want to see you enjoy the money now while I'm still alive". 

Frankly, I think if you want to bitch about house prices, easy lending standards and steep credit are a far, far bigger bogeyman than the statistically small number of 20-somethings receiving 6-figure gifts.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2017, 01:17:56 PM »
I don't know if it is healthy to tell young adults to feel shame for using help their family is willing to give. esp, when if doesn't use up many resources. why do you think staying with your parents, and letting them support you financially,  automatically means you are a burden?

Supporting an extra adult in the household is not a zero-cost venture. It's about $300-$400 per month if you feed them. I'm basing this on several years of experience renting out individual rooms in my home. I can break the expense down if you like, but your list missed several key items including auto insurance, food, toiletries, and the difference between an individual and family plan for services such as phone lines, Netflix, and other things you may want to use. Including an extra person in treats such as family vacations, an occasional restaurant meal, or similar small luxuries can and will add up.

Also, every extra adult in a house creates about an hour a day in extra labor related to cleaning, cooking, laundry, garbage removal, etc.

If the extra person does no more than clean up after himself or herself, he or she is still a financial burden. If they refuse to clean up after himself or herself, they generate an hour a day of work for somebody else. That labor has to come from somewhere, just like the money to pay for the extra food or utilities has to come from somewhere.

There are people who can and do pull their own weight in a household by chipping in for groceries or other expenses, doing chores that go beyond what it takes to clean up after them, and making themselves useful. During this time they are generally pursuing an education, saving money, and strengthening their position. People like that are also generally welcomed because they're an asset to the household instead of a liability, and few people on this board blame or shame them for that.

The people on this board who speak up in favor of sharing accommodations with relatives have four things in common.

(1) The person who moves in provides a valuable or useful service to the homeowner
(2) The person who moves in covers at least some of the expenses associated with keeping them (such as their own groceries) or else provides labor in lieu of payment
(3) The person who moves in behaves with basic consideration, courtesy, and regard for the owner and cares whether or not he or she is getting a fair break, and
(4) The person who moves in is behaving in a financially responsible way, saving money for the future or perhaps doing necessary education, business travel, or other things that position him or her better long-term and not simply seeking to use the owner as an enabler to provide the necessities while their own income finances a spendypants lifestyle.

If any one of those things are missing the arrangement won't work out.

The stigma against young adults living with their parents comes from the fact that most people who do it are not meeting one or more of those conditions. Too many of them aren't providing enough up-side to justify the resources they consume (point 1) or covering the expenses they are capable of covering (point 2). Why? Because they don't see why they should go out of their way to do what they can to help the people who are helping them, instead of just using those individuals for all they can get (point 3). Meanwhile, since someone else has been duped into paying the bills, they aren't acting like competent stewards of what resources they do have (point 4).
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 02:05:09 PM by TheGrimSqueaker »

BFGirl

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2017, 01:33:21 PM »
It is a problem when people begin to feel entitled to other people's wealth and/or not chipping in or contributing themselves.

As soon as you lose every iota of shame about being a burden to someone else, you have become a socialist parasite.  Without any sense of shame, there will be little motivation to do anything for yourself, much less develop personal accountability.  Once normalized, you end up with a long term deadbeat with a PhD in Externalization.  That is an incredibly bad thing.

I'm not saying 'Never move in w/ Mom and Dad'.

I'm saying 'Don't pretend you are not a burden.  Mom and Dad love you and want to help you.  Feel shame that you have become this burden and that you will do everything in your power to minimize it so you can return your love and appreciation to Mom and Dad!'

It's the loss of the sense of shame that marks a person's transition into the entitlement class.

I don't know if it is healthy, to tell young adults to feel shame, for using help, that their family willingly gives. esp, when it doesn't use up many resources. why do you think to stay, with your parents, and let them support you financially,  automatically means you are a burden?

sounds to me like you are letting your own judgments color this whole argument. but more likely you are letting societies judgment color your own beliefs

why do you get a gold star for living apart from your family?
are you a better person if you do everything on your own?

my sister stayed at home for like $50/month to finish grad school.

Adult children living at home:


  • rarely increases rent/mortgage costs for parents, they usually stay in their childhood rooms or even basements.
    rarely increase utilities, no increase in the internet bill, the heating bill or others.( might increase water bill, and the slight increase in the electric bill if doing laundry in the home)
    often provides relief for empty nesters
    often promotes closeness and make parents better while helping out



in fact, until recently young people often stayed at home until married.
why do people find it necessary to shame people, for relying on willing family members? maybe if we heard about his parents going into debt or suffering, as a result, this would be a real issue.

also, people using the argument that they should be saving their money rather than spending it on him: we do not know their situation.at what point should you stop hoarding money, for money's sake? they have no debt, and want to help their adult kid. who cares


it sounds like a lot of people support bootstrapping out of some place of misplaced pride, or even jealousy

I moved out at 19 and never went back.  I loved my parents and had a good relationship with them, but I wanted more personal freedoms than they were prepared to give me.  They continued to pay for my college but I paid for my living expenses.  I know to this day if I am ever in a difficult situation, they will help me out however they can. 

In my job, I see way too many adult kids who take advantage of their parents.  Yes, their parents love them and want to help them, but when the adult kids are not independent, that responsibility is passed on to the parents. 

I am a parent of two kids in college and am divorced from their father.  Both live with me and I pay their living expenses.  Their father pays their tuition, books and fees. I want to help them to successfully start their lives with hopefully no debt.   I have a good relationship with them and enjoy their company.  However, I am very ready for them to hopefully leave the nest in a couple of years.  Obviously there are a lot of things that can influence that, but ultimately, I do not feel that I have the responsibility to support them according to how long they wish to be supported.

My expenses are definitely more with them there.  Water, electric, insurance, cell phones and food are all increased over what I would use, so I am not sure how you can say that it costs little more for them to live there.  I am restricted in what I can spend and/or save because of the expenses I have for them.

Additionally, I don't get to be selfish for myself as much when they are here.  They may be in the living room, so I go to my room if I don't want to participate in whatever they are doing.  I have to work around them for laundry.  I feel much more obligation to cook an evening meal for them.  I have to be responsible for making sure everything is stocked.  I have to deal with their messes.  I can't use the rooms that they occupy for hobbies or other things.  I have to deal with them being up at all hours of the night because their schedules are different than mine.  I can't walk out of my bedroom naked to get a glass of water in the kitchen which is next to my room because one of them might be there.  I can't have sex anywhere I want to in the house ;).   

Maybe I sound like a selfish jerk, but I want some small bit of freedom to live my life as I choose for a brief time before I likely have to take care of my parents.  I would like some time free from the day to day responsibilities of parenthood.  There is a lot more stress that comes from knowing that you are responsible for others than just being responsible for yourself.

I don't know that I would necessarily say that an adult child living with a parent is a "burden", but to claim that supporting adult children does not impact a parent's financial and personal freedoms is not a realistic view.

Just Joe

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2017, 01:35:18 PM »
As long as the child staying at home doesn't lead to a "failure to launch" situation I don't see a problem with it. No reason for the family to collectively make someone else wealthier by junior duplicating housing expenses, utilities/internet, etc by living across town while they establish themselves - assuming junior and parents get along well.

Short term: free. Get your education completed. Save your money. Get yourself established.

Longer term: junior is starting to show symptoms of "failure to launch" then its time to have some discussion hopefully reminding them of previous conversations that laid out the expectations when this solution was established. Deadlines renewed.

I've witnessed some failures to launch with junior establishing permanent residence at the house of Mom and Dad and riding on their financial coat tails b/c junior "could not adult".

BFGirl

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2017, 01:38:29 PM »
What TGS said!!!

PseudoStache

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2017, 02:14:43 PM »
I'm not sure why there is any hate for the author of this article.

I just skimmed it, but from the gist of what I read, it seems like he is grateful and appreciates his parents for where he is in life.

I didn't get a sense of entitlement nor did he come off sounding like an a-hole.

Why is it that YOU (rhetorical you) are bothered by this?

I understand that you may not have been fortunate enough to have parents that could help you.. but does that make you a better person - because you had to work through college and were out of your home at 15?  Does it make the person who received parental help a waste of life?

To me it's about attitude - The author isn't acting like Paris Hilton or Nicole Ritchie (have I dated myself?)... He is just a dude trying to make this way through life.

I'm willing to wager that most of the folks that are "annoyed" with the author in this thread are 3rd generation Americans.... The U.S. is one of the only countries that I am aware of where the general populace wants to kick their kids out at 18 and children don't feel like adults unless they have left the nest.

Realize that this is not the way it is in other countries.  Many ADULT children do not leave their parents homes until they marry... and even then, some will move their spouses into their parents homes knowing that one day this will be their home... where they will have the PRIVILEGE of taking care of their parents.

My situation:  I own a McMansion with 8 bedrooms and 5 baths.  2 Master Bedrooms.  2 kitchen areas.  I built this home so that my Mom and my Dad could live with me.  And more multi-generational housing options are coming on the market where I live.

But before that, before I was married, guess what, I LIVED WITH MY PARENTS... The HORROR!  And before that...can you believe that they actually paid for my college and part of my MBA.... And get this, they have actually contributed to my kids' college fund!

Guess how I was able to save my money for the down payment on my McMansion... yup, by mooching off of mom and dad... they were SOOOO pissed!

I am a TOTAL LOSER - and am never going to realize what it's like to be a hard working member of society.

All tongue in cheek of course... but seriously why the butt hurt-ness?

My dad and mom grew up seriously poor.... but they didn't feel like they needed me to "learn the hard way"

I am grateful as hell!  And I'm hoping I can do for the same for my children... The future is bleak.
 


 





Vibrissae

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2017, 03:09:46 PM »
The people on this board who speak up in favor of sharing accommodations with relatives have four things in common.
(1) The person who moves in provides a valuable or useful service to the homeowner
(2) The person who moves in covers at least some of the expenses associated with keeping them (such as their own groceries) or else provides labor in lieu of payment
(3) The person who moves in behaves with basic consideration, courtesy, and regard for the owner and cares whether or not he or she is getting a fair break, and
(4) The person who moves in is behaving in a financially responsible way, saving money for the future or perhaps doing necessary education, business travel, or other things that position him or her better long-term and not simply seeking to use the owner as an enabler to provide the necessities while their own income finances a spendypants lifestyle.
If any one of those things are missing the arrangement won't work out.

I'm crying....

I let a friend crash land with me when she lost her job and got evicted. (Because, you know, she was a friend, and I'd hope that someone would help me out that way if I ever needed it.)

Ten years later, I've finally made her leave. (I know, I'm ridiculously stupid-nice.)

She cost me so much money. So. Much. And while she maybe didn't completely fail on those four points, her grade at best would be a C on some of them. In some cases, a D-.

I kind of want to retroactively facepunch myself....

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 03:18:03 PM »
I'm not sure why there is any hate for the author of this article.

I just skimmed it, but from the gist of what I read, it seems like he is grateful and appreciates his parents for where he is in life.

I didn't get a sense of entitlement nor did he come off sounding like an a-hole.

Why is it that YOU (rhetorical you) are bothered by this?

Two things pop out at me.

The first is the blatant contradiction between the speaker's "self-sufficient" self-image and the reality. (It's not clear whether the speaker is male or female; this is an "as told to" article). Any time someone has that much of a gap between the self-image they take so much pride in and how they actually behave, they come across as a giant hypocrite.

The second thing is that although the tone is very grateful and the speaker expresses gratitude, the independent living hasn't been going on very long. The last help the speaker accepted was "last year", meaning 2016. It's currently only three months into 2017. The speaker, if living independently, has been doing it for such a short time that the behavior can't be taken as anything except an anomaly particularly considering all the years of prior dependency. Yet the speaker acts as though it is the norm, and the acceptance of help is the exception. The reverse is what's true. If the speaker had been talking about the events of the very distant past (say, 20 years ago) I'd be more willing to believe he or she had achieved independence. But going a few months without dipping into the Bank of Mom and Dad is not my idea of an achievement.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2017, 03:33:02 PM »
The people on this board who speak up in favor of sharing accommodations with relatives have four things in common.
(1) The person who moves in provides a valuable or useful service to the homeowner
(2) The person who moves in covers at least some of the expenses associated with keeping them (such as their own groceries) or else provides labor in lieu of payment
(3) The person who moves in behaves with basic consideration, courtesy, and regard for the owner and cares whether or not he or she is getting a fair break, and
(4) The person who moves in is behaving in a financially responsible way, saving money for the future or perhaps doing necessary education, business travel, or other things that position him or her better long-term and not simply seeking to use the owner as an enabler to provide the necessities while their own income finances a spendypants lifestyle.
If any one of those things are missing the arrangement won't work out.

I'm crying....

I let a friend crash land with me when she lost her job and got evicted. (Because, you know, she was a friend, and I'd hope that someone would help me out that way if I ever needed it.)

Ten years later, I've finally made her leave. (I know, I'm ridiculously stupid-nice.)

She cost me so much money. So. Much. And while she maybe didn't completely fail on those four points, her grade at best would be a C on some of them. In some cases, a D-.

I kind of want to retroactively facepunch myself....

Breathe. Learn from it, and move on. I'm sorry that happened to you, and you're free now.

Should you ever have another similar friend or relative in distress, the way to help in the future is to set time limits and other boundaries and expectations going in. Have a fixed idea of what you're willing/able to provide, and for how long. Stick to it like you would stick to a shopping list.

Also, learn to identify and avoid people who don't value you enough to care whether or not you benefit from having them around, and who don't understand why they should care about such a thing. Such people aren't fixable. But you can generally only recognize them from a distance by looking at how they treat other people around them.

To practice these people-watching, boundary-setting, and similar skills, I recommend renting out a room in your own home. There is nothing better for developing assertiveness, negotiating skills, and boundary management. You've got the space, and if you get a good tenant you can start making money from the use of your space and put it toward your 'stache. You're used to not using the space yourself, so instead of consuming it, make the resources work for you.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2017, 03:46:13 PM »
It's a cultural shift, and one many do not perceive to be better. American has always been been projected to be  a 'bootstraps' culture. It's still that way for large swaths of people.
Where I grew up, it was pretty much expected of kids to have jobs in high school, at pretty much the legal age(15 for part time I believe). A large section had been working at home for years prior; I grew up in agricultural area. You start contributing on the farm at age 9 or 10.
A lot of the families I grew up around would basically kick kids out the door at 18 or shortly after.  The tough love works for some, doesn't for others. But even with the failings, many would say the idea of self-sufficiency and responsibility outweighs the downsides.
/2cents

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 03:49:48 PM »
In my family we had both sides of the coin on living with the parents. I moved back in with my parents because I got a job with AmeriCorps in my home town which pays next to nothing but pays off a fair amount of student loans. I was working at the elementary school that my brother went to at the time so I took him to school brought him home and was generally around when he was home. I also cooked and cleaned and helped with a kitchen renovation that my parents did. I more than pulled my weight around there when I lived there.

On the other hand my sister lived there 2 different times. The first time she was living there for a summer after she graduated high school. My parents were living pretty much at their camper because its nice in the summer. My sister managed to basically trash my parents house. To the point that they had to put a new kitchen sink in and do a significant amount of cleaning(I did a lot) before the house really should be lived in again. It cost quite a bit and was very frustrating. She then came back with her husband a few years later and lived in the basement. Her husband is a deadbeat and should be in jail. He managed to steal a fair amount of things, never got a job and my sister and him were generally useless. My parents finally kicked them out but the damage is done. My sisters relationship with my parents is basically non-existant and her husband is no longer allowed around ever.

It can go both ways moving back in with family. Sometimes like when I was at home it goes great. I was able to save money and pay off quite a bit of my student loans and my parents knew my much younger brother wouldn't be home alone. My sister cost them tons of money and tons of stress.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2017, 08:39:07 AM »
I don't know if it is healthy to tell young adults to feel shame for using help their family is willing to give. esp, when if doesn't use up many resources. why do you think staying with your parents, and letting them support you financially,  automatically means you are a burden?

Supporting an extra adult in the household is not a zero-cost venture. It's about $300-$400 per month if you feed them. I'm basing this on several years of experience renting out individual rooms in my home. I can break the expense down if you like, but your list missed several key items including auto insurance, food, toiletries, and the difference between an individual and family plan for services such as phone lines, Netflix, and other things you may want to use. Including an extra person in treats such as family vacations, an occasional restaurant meal, or similar small luxuries can and will add up.

Also, every extra adult in a house creates about an hour a day in extra labor related to cleaning, cooking, laundry, garbage removal, etc.

If the extra person does no more than clean up after himself or herself, he or she is still a financial burden. If they refuse to clean up after himself or herself, they generate an hour a day of work for somebody else. That labor has to come from somewhere, just like the money to pay for the extra food or utilities has to come from somewhere.

There are people who can and do pull their own weight in a household by chipping in for groceries or other expenses, doing chores that go beyond what it takes to clean up after them, and making themselves useful. During this time they are generally pursuing an education, saving money, and strengthening their position. People like that are also generally welcomed because they're an asset to the household instead of a liability, and few people on this board blame or shame them for that.

The people on this board who speak up in favor of sharing accommodations with relatives have four things in common.

(1) The person who moves in provides a valuable or useful service to the homeowner
(2) The person who moves in covers at least some of the expenses associated with keeping them (such as their own groceries) or else provides labor in lieu of payment
(3) The person who moves in behaves with basic consideration, courtesy, and regard for the owner and cares whether or not he or she is getting a fair break, and
(4) The person who moves in is behaving in a financially responsible way, saving money for the future or perhaps doing necessary education, business travel, or other things that position him or her better long-term and not simply seeking to use the owner as an enabler to provide the necessities while their own income finances a spendypants lifestyle.

If any one of those things are missing the arrangement won't work out.

The stigma against young adults living with their parents comes from the fact that most people who do it are not meeting one or more of those conditions. Too many of them aren't providing enough up-side to justify the resources they consume (point 1) or covering the expenses they are capable of covering (point 2). Why? Because they don't see why they should go out of their way to do what they can to help the people who are helping them, instead of just using those individuals for all they can get (point 3). Meanwhile, since someone else has been duped into paying the bills, they aren't acting like competent stewards of what resources they do have (point 4).

dude you have been giving all of you board advice based on that one time you let a bunch of dead beats stay with you.


even if it increases expenses, who are you to tell other people what constitutes a burden?

who cares about all of the things you listed, if a healthy able-minded adult offers something to a family member with out malice, why should we shame them?

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2017, 09:00:16 AM »

dude you have been giving all of you board advice based on that one time you let a bunch of dead beats stay with you.


even if it increases expenses, who are you to tell other people what constitutes a burden?

who cares about all of the things you listed, if a healthy able-minded adult offers something to a family member with out malice, why should we shame them?

I've been a landlord for 17 years.

Are you talking about the houseguests from Hell I had for a few weeks last summer? I moved them out as quickly as I could. They were never tenants. I'd have actually preferred if they were, because there would have been rent and a damage deposit to offset what happened to my home due to the piggy parkour

Why do you believe that providing a family member with extended EOC is healthy? The evidence to the contrary goes all the way back to Stanley and Danko.

vivophoenix

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 09:22:32 AM »

dude you have been giving all of you board advice based on that one time you let a bunch of dead beats stay with you.


even if it increases expenses, who are you to tell other people what constitutes a burden?

who cares about all of the things you listed, if a healthy able-minded adult offers something to a family member with out malice, why should we shame them?

I've been a landlord for 17 years.

Are you talking about the houseguests from Hell I had for a few weeks last summer? I moved them out as quickly as I could. They were never tenants. I'd have actually preferred if they were, because there would have been rent and a damage deposit to offset what happened to my home due to the piggy parkour

Why do you believe that providing a family member with extended EOC is healthy? The evidence to the contrary goes all the way back to Stanley and Danko.


i do not know what EOC means.

but i think its healthy because of so many cultures that act in this manner and have for a while.

also because i have seen it with in my own family, and it helps.

how are we defining unhealthy?

failure to launch is not the end results for all or even most young adults who remain with their parents after graduation.

what about families who use this to generate familial wealth?

or even immigrant communities that operate in the same manner?

sharing resources often benefits a community.

I am not just talking about money, hence my remark about money hoarding.

if parental mooching is such a crime, why even wait till 18?

let's toss em out at 16, give em more time to boot strap  up?

Vibrissae

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2017, 09:27:14 AM »
Thanks, TGS! Boundaries are definitely something I need to work on, I know....

Oh, and lest anyone feel *too* sorry for me, I wasn't literally crying, just emotively "crying." I forgot that I wasn't on Tumblr. :P


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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2017, 09:49:10 AM »

dude you have been giving all of you board advice based on that one time you let a bunch of dead beats stay with you.


even if it increases expenses, who are you to tell other people what constitutes a burden?

who cares about all of the things you listed, if a healthy able-minded adult offers something to a family member with out malice, why should we shame them?

I've been a landlord for 17 years.

Are you talking about the houseguests from Hell I had for a few weeks last summer? I moved them out as quickly as I could. They were never tenants. I'd have actually preferred if they were, because there would have been rent and a damage deposit to offset what happened to my home due to the piggy parkour

Why do you believe that providing a family member with extended EOC is healthy? The evidence to the contrary goes all the way back to Stanley and Danko.


i do not know what EOC means.

but i think its healthy because of so many cultures that act in this manner and have for a while.

also because i have seen it with in my own family, and it helps.

how are we defining unhealthy?

failure to launch is not the end results for all or even most young adults who remain with their parents after graduation.

what about families who use this to generate familial wealth?

or even immigrant communities that operate in the same manner?

sharing resources often benefits a community.

I am not just talking about money, hence my remark about money hoarding.

if parental mooching is such a crime, why even wait till 18?

let's toss em out at 16, give em more time to boot strap  up?

EOC = "Economic Outpatient Care". It refers to a situation where one person, generally a parent, makes routine and ongoing payments so that another person, generally a child, can afford a much higher standard of living than they otherwise could. It goes way beyomd putting the kid through school.

In the case of the original article, the parents didn't just pay for (and/or supplement) tuition and living expenses while the subject was in school. They covered moving expenses as well. And it wasn't just an isolated event. It was routine giving that went on for years.

There's also a big difference between sharing resources and the things going on in the article. "Sharing" goes both ways which is why people like it and approve of it. It's a tradition in many countries and many families. This thread has many examples of satisfying, successful cooperation and nobody's being shamed for it. But that's not what's happening in the article. In the article, the adult child is constantly taking and the parents are constantly giving.

It would be different if the article had something about the speaker caring for a sick grandparent or coming home over the holidays to help with extensive house renovations. That's how it is, in cultures where people share resources the way you describe. People do what they can to help each other and it's a top priority. But that's not what's going on in the article: there's nothing about the student giving anything back to the family. The street is going only one way.

vivophoenix

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2017, 10:02:27 AM »

dude you have been giving all of you board advice based on that one time you let a bunch of dead beats stay with you.


even if it increases expenses, who are you to tell other people what constitutes a burden?

who cares about all of the things you listed, if a healthy able-minded adult offers something to a family member with out malice, why should we shame them?

I've been a landlord for 17 years.

Are you talking about the houseguests from Hell I had for a few weeks last summer? I moved them out as quickly as I could. They were never tenants. I'd have actually preferred if they were, because there would have been rent and a damage deposit to offset what happened to my home due to the piggy parkour

Why do you believe that providing a family member with extended EOC is healthy? The evidence to the contrary goes all the way back to Stanley and Danko.


i do not know what EOC means.

but i think its healthy because of so many cultures that act in this manner and have for a while.

also because i have seen it with in my own family, and it helps.

how are we defining unhealthy?

failure to launch is not the end results for all or even most young adults who remain with their parents after graduation.

what about families who use this to generate familial wealth?

or even immigrant communities that operate in the same manner?

sharing resources often benefits a community.

I am not just talking about money, hence my remark about money hoarding.

if parental mooching is such a crime, why even wait till 18?

let's toss em out at 16, give em more time to boot strap  up?

EOC = "Economic Outpatient Care". It refers to a situation where one person, generally a parent, makes routine and ongoing payments so that another person, generally a child, can afford a much higher standard of living than they otherwise could. It goes way beyomd putting the kid through school.

In the case of the original article, the parents didn't just pay for (and/or supplement) tuition and living expenses while the subject was in school. They covered moving expenses as well. And it wasn't just an isolated event. It was routine giving that went on for years.

There's also a big difference between sharing resources and the things going on in the article. "Sharing" goes both ways which is why people like it and approve of it. It's a tradition in many countries and many families. This thread has many examples of satisfying, successful cooperation and nobody's being shamed for it. But that's not what's happening in the article. In the article, the adult child is constantly taking and the parents are constantly giving.

It would be different if the article had something about the speaker caring for a sick grandparent or coming home over the holidays to help with extensive house renovations. That's how it is, in cultures where people share resources the way you describe. People do what they can to help each other and it's a top priority. But that's not what's going on in the article: there's nothing about the student giving anything back to the family. The street is going only one way.

you do not like EOC, but:
1)he is not taking from you
2) his parents do not seem the worse the wear for the giving
3) most things parents do for their children are never repaid, so why are you putting an arbitrary deadline on financial aid from parents to children?


why are you so against it?
on principal?

that's like when I bake cookies and bring them to work.
it allows my co-workers to live a higher level of sugar support than they would be able to by themselves(lazy, inability, lack of time), but I do it willingly and it isn't a burden. I get nothing back in return.

by your arguments,  I should stop.

sounds like re-worked bootstrap theory to me.

 when your argument is: i don't want people to have nice things, when they themselves didn't themselves work for it, you sound jealous. and it sounds to me that is what your argument boils down to: you want someone to work as hard as you did, to get the same things you have.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:13:03 AM by vivophoenix »

BFGirl

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2017, 10:53:00 AM »
Vivophoenix:

Parents and adult children living together can be a mutually beneficial arrangement for all involved and I don't believe anyone is arguing against that situation. 

The problem arises when the children fail to take on the responsibility of their own adulthood and expect their parents to continue to support them as if they are still small helpless children.  In large part I have a job because of family members who do not want to be responsible for themselves and financially exploit the elder generation.

Your example of the cookies is not an analogous situation.  While you are being kind without expecting reciprocation, you are not inviting your coworkers to cohabitate with you.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2017, 11:00:58 AM »
you do not like EOC, but:
1)he is not taking from you
He or she is not taking from me, or someone like me, yet.

When people never develop the skill to build a cash cushion and plan for an emergency, the routine unplanned parts of life hit them a lot harder. The odds are high that this individual who will get into serious debt and go bankrupt one day. That affects a lot of people, not just the family.

A person who's not independent and who doesn't develop planning skills is in trouble when the parent dies, because they are missing key skills. I've seen this happen in branches of my own extended family and it's not pretty. There's helping, and there's over-helping to the point where it weakens the person being helped instead of strengthening him or her. That's why EOC is destructive: it's a gift that weakens the recipient.

We know the person interviewed for the article didn't have savings or cash reserves: he or she was unable to handle the moving expenses solo when the problem came up. This could be evidence that the EOC is having an effect already. It's also why I'm not confident the individual is in fact going to be self-supporting in the long term.

I think you'd like Stanley and Danko's research because you have a strong analytical mind. For their book "The Millionaire Next Door", they interviewed hundreds of people, asked a bunch of questions, and one of the patterns they saw is that people who receive large, ongoing cash gifts from their parents don't save as much and have a lower net worth, even among people who have the same profession and earnings. They also have a higher stress level.

Quote
2) his parents do not seem the worse the wear for the giving

We actually don't know that. The parents weren't interviewed and we didn't get to hear their side. The speaker doesn't have a lot of credibility due to his or her inability to understand what "self-supporting" means. We don't know what the parents went through, whether it affected their standard of living, whether they were in agreement to give or whether they argued over it. We also don't know how the other kids in the family felt about it.

People who take a lot tend to be clueless as to whether the people they're taking from are happy to give to them or whether they can easily afford it.

Quote
3) most things parents do for their children are never repaid, so why are you putting an arbitrary deadline on financial aid from parents to children?


why are you so against it?
on principal?

What I'm against is hypocrisy, cluelessness, and patterns of giving that weaken the recipient of the gift.

Quote
that's like when I bake cookies and bring them to work.
it allows my co-workers to live a higher level of sugar support than they would be able to by themselves(lazy, inability, lack of time), but I do it willingly and it isn't a burden. I get nothing back in return.

The analogy would only be complete if your co-workers were pretending they baked the cookies themselves. I rather doubt any of them are so foolish. Or, perhaps, if one of your co-workers bit into a cookie you made and had a serious allergic reaction.

(Now I'm hungry for fresh homemade cookies.)

Quote
by your arguments,  I should stop.

sounds like re-worked bootstrap theory to me.

 when your argument is: i don't want people to have nice things, when they themselves didn't themselves work for it, you sound jealous. and it sounds to me that is what your argument boils down to: you want someone to work as hard as you did, to get the same things you have.

That's not my argument though. I have no objection to people sharing resources or cooperating. It's an intelligent thing to do.

But I'm not a fan of hypocrisy or cluelessness, and I see a lot of both in the article. I also see evidence that the person interviewed for the article may not be developing good financial planning skills. That's a sticking point for me.

Oh, and please don't stop baking cookies. Cookies are awesome.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2017, 12:30:47 PM »
I'm getting close to being in the parent stage myself, and also plan on having a lot more money than average in a couple decades.  I should be able to drop money on college tuition so my kids have no idea what student loans are or afford with little effort anything the middle class has to strive for or scrimp for or get loans for.

My parents paid for my tuition with the expectation that I graduate from college.  Despite the same parents, nearly same interests, and nearly same level of intelligence I did and my brother didn't.  When hearing tales of the rich getting richer on one side and adult kids failing to launch on the other, how do I best ensure my children will be able to use the advantages I provide to climb the next few rungs on the ladder instead of hanging out with me as we backslide towards mediocrity?

onehair

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2017, 12:32:04 PM »
Just reminded me I need to bake cookies for the grandbabies..somewhat ontopic response: When I was 29 I had 4 kids and was anti Mustachian (understatement of the year) and also a frequent customer at the Bank of Mom.  We won't discuss the guilt tripping, constant interference and due to my dependency the ongoing struggles that ensued. The multigenerational thing is great when it works my coworker does it.  But one needs to be prepared if it suddenly changes or if no one is willing to take you in.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2017, 12:45:31 PM »
you do not like EOC, but:
1)he is not taking from you
He or she is not taking from me, or someone like me, yet.

When people never develop the skill to build a cash cushion and plan for an emergency, the routine unplanned parts of life hit them a lot harder. The odds are high that this individual who will get into serious debt and go bankrupt one day. That affects a lot of people, not just the family.

A person who's not independent and who doesn't develop planning skills is in trouble when the parent dies, because they are missing key skills. I've seen this happen in branches of my own extended family and it's not pretty. There's helping, and there's over-helping to the point where it weakens the person being helped instead of strengthening him or her. That's why EOC is destructive: it's a gift that weakens the recipient.

We know the person interviewed for the article didn't have savings or cash reserves: he or she was unable to handle the moving expenses solo when the problem came up. This could be evidence that the EOC is having an effect already. It's also why I'm not confident the individual is in fact going to be self-supporting in the long term.

I think you'd like Stanley and Danko's research because you have a strong analytical mind. For their book "The Millionaire Next Door", they interviewed hundreds of people, asked a bunch of questions, and one of the patterns they saw is that people who receive large, ongoing cash gifts from their parents don't save as much and have a lower net worth, even among people who have the same profession and earnings. They also have a higher stress level.

Quote
2) his parents do not seem the worse the wear for the giving

We actually don't know that. The parents weren't interviewed and we didn't get to hear their side. The speaker doesn't have a lot of credibility due to his or her inability to understand what "self-supporting" means. We don't know what the parents went through, whether it affected their standard of living, whether they were in agreement to give or whether they argued over it. We also don't know how the other kids in the family felt about it.

People who take a lot tend to be clueless as to whether the people they're taking from are happy to give to them or whether they can easily afford it.

Quote
3) most things parents do for their children are never repaid, so why are you putting an arbitrary deadline on financial aid from parents to children?


why are you so against it?
on principal?

What I'm against is hypocrisy, cluelessness, and patterns of giving that weaken the recipient of the gift.

Quote
that's like when I bake cookies and bring them to work.
it allows my co-workers to live a higher level of sugar support than they would be able to by themselves(lazy, inability, lack of time), but I do it willingly and it isn't a burden. I get nothing back in return.

The analogy would only be complete if your co-workers were pretending they baked the cookies themselves. I rather doubt any of them are so foolish. Or, perhaps, if one of your co-workers bit into a cookie you made and had a serious allergic reaction.

(Now I'm hungry for fresh homemade cookies.)

Quote
by your arguments,  I should stop.

sounds like re-worked bootstrap theory to me.

 when your argument is: i don't want people to have nice things, when they themselves didn't themselves work for it, you sound jealous. and it sounds to me that is what your argument boils down to: you want someone to work as hard as you did, to get the same things you have.

That's not my argument though. I have no objection to people sharing resources or cooperating. It's an intelligent thing to do.

But I'm not a fan of hypocrisy or cluelessness, and I see a lot of both in the article. I also see evidence that the person interviewed for the article may not be developing good financial planning skills. That's a sticking point for me.

Oh, and please don't stop baking cookies. Cookies are awesome.

Bravo!  I could not have said it better myself.  I had a long entry/diatribe about growing up in an immigrant family where I saw many of the issues TGS referred to manifest in myself as well as my wife.  (severe co-dependency, inability to draw boundaries, general mental and physical health issues, being and feeling aptly incapable of fending for myself)

My situation is my own but as it is, I'm in complete agreement with the issues that arise due to EOC as well as the unwritten social contracts and expectations that become inherent when EOC is given.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2017, 01:43:50 PM »
Grim: you make some excellent points and I loved your criteria because it was right on! If it is not a 2 way street it breeds resentment.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2017, 01:48:26 PM »
i love my bank of mom and dad.  they are trasnferring wealth to my brother and I... we each currently get 10k per year tax free money.  not factored into FIRE plans but gotta love that free dough.

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2017, 02:35:00 PM »
I'm not sure why there is any hate for the author of this article.

I just skimmed it, but from the gist of what I read, it seems like he is grateful and appreciates his parents for where he is in life.

I didn't get a sense of entitlement nor did he come off sounding like an a-hole.

Why is it that YOU (rhetorical you) are bothered by this?

Two things pop out at me.

The first is the blatant contradiction between the speaker's "self-sufficient" self-image and the reality. (It's not clear whether the speaker is male or female; this is an "as told to" article). Any time someone has that much of a gap between the self-image they take so much pride in and how they actually behave, they come across as a giant hypocrite.

The second thing is that although the tone is very grateful and the speaker expresses gratitude, the independent living hasn't been going on very long. The last help the speaker accepted was "last year", meaning 2016. It's currently only three months into 2017. The speaker, if living independently, has been doing it for such a short time that the behavior can't be taken as anything except an anomaly particularly considering all the years of prior dependency. Yet the speaker acts as though it is the norm, and the acceptance of help is the exception. The reverse is what's true. If the speaker had been talking about the events of the very distant past (say, 20 years ago) I'd be more willing to believe he or she had achieved independence. But going a few months without dipping into the Bank of Mom and Dad is not my idea of an achievement.

+1.  What caught my eye was the opening paragraph about self sufficiency, followed by a chronicle of a decade's worth of being anything but.  He ends by proudly stating he might do it again in the future as if shamelessness is a badge of honor.

I have no problem with those just starting out getting help with tuition, marriage, even a down payment if that is what the parents want.  But the author came off as rather entitled and shameless.

Even 20-somethings that end up living with mom and dad doesn't bother me, but I don't expect someone to proudly write about it as a life strategy.  If I had ended up living under my parents roof after college I would view it as an emergency situation to be remedied as quickly as possible, while doing my best to help around the house and contribute rent as best I could to compensate for the imposition.  I'd rather see an article about how someone got back under their own roof through frugality, savings, and hard work than one about the savings to be had while sleeping in your old race car bed.

My sore point comes from having an older brother who ALWAYS has some sob story and manages to mooch off various relatives regularly.  He has grown so accustomed to people helping him out that the last time he brought his horde to visit  (his idea) he expected us to pay for food and lodging without even asking, and then barely thanking.  We took his crowd to a children's museum, and at lunch he just walked off with the food without even making a show of trying to pay for his 2/3 of the lunch bill, most folks would pay for lunch in thanks for us paying the sizeable entrance fee or at least make try to pay for their portion.  Despite us living in a 2 room townhouse with a roommate at the time he wanted to just "crash" on our floor with his crowd of 4 people, and we got suckered into paying for a hotel room just to get him out.  He mooched off my parents for cheap rent for years in the other side of their duplex, private school for their kids for years, and so much more.  I'm pretty sure my mom could have retired at least a little before she died if a large amount of her savings weren't siphoned off to cover my sad sack of a brother.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 02:40:04 PM by moof »

Chris22

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2017, 03:36:13 PM »
Even 20-somethings that end up living with mom and dad doesn't bother me, but I don't expect someone to proudly write about it as a life strategy.  If I had ended up living under my parents roof after college I would view it as an emergency situation to be remedied as quickly as possible, while doing my best to help around the house and contribute rent as best I could to compensate for the imposition.  I'd rather see an article about how someone got back under their own roof through frugality, savings, and hard work than one about the savings to be had while sleeping in your old race car bed.

I dunno, living with your parents as a long term (lack of) plan with no "exit strategy" is one thing, but both my wife and her sister graduated from college with a serious boyfriend and intentions to get married within a few years; there was no rush to move out into an apartment and spend money on rent instead of living at home with mom and dad, who were near their workplaces, and allowed them to save significant money to put towards houses and retirement accounts and life in general.  Their parents were happy to have them and they were happy to be there and saving money.  I'm not sure what sort of financial arrangements were made between the parties, but I guarantee A) the parents didn't need or want money and B) the parents were more than happy to see the daughters save their own money rather than contribute it to the parents. 

My wife and I also lived with her parents for a short time several years later when we converted our home to a rental property and then purchased a second home to live in and did some renovations on it.  We contributed by doing some chores and we purchased basically all of the groceries while we were there (plus did most of the cooking).  But again this was a relatively short term plan, not an indefinite "gonna live with mom and dad because it's easier than being on my own."

Mezzie

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2017, 03:50:36 AM »
In my husband's culture, extended families live together: cousins, parents, grandparents, great-grand-uncles three times removed... It's really a great system economically where everyone helps each other out.

In my family, even though we all had the American urge to move out at 18 (and most of us did by 20), I think we've all leaned on each other from time to time. I lived with my grandpa and paid low rent so I could save for grad school, my cousin lived with my great-grandma and provided much-needed care while also getting back on her feet financially, my brother and his girlfriend currently live with me while they work towards financial stability... In every case, all people involved benefitted. I wasn't 100% sure I wanted roommates, but having them here has been super fun and I hope they don't have plans to leave anytime soon.

Fish Sweet

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2017, 03:36:52 PM »
As a 26 yo who has been almost entirely independent of my parents since I graduated university, but has seen a lot of friends and people in my cohort crash in the same few years, some of whom did end up relying on or living with family as a result, I have a lot of sympathy for the person depicted in the article, but-- yes, quite a lot of side-eye to go around too.

On one hand...
  • It's true.  Shit's hard for young adults these days.  Unpaid internships, predatory "universities", stagnant job markets in many parts of the country, lack of entry level positions (because of all the unpaid internships), student loans, skyrocketing rent/property prices... a lot of people can't able to leave the nest and for good reasons.  And being young and not as experienced, a lot of them aren't prepared to expect the curveballs that life throws you, like the roommates disappearing.
  • A lot of times, relying on/living with your parents makes a lot more sense, financially, than springing mad money for an apartment of your own, taking out massive loans for education, etc.  Some people start out their young adult lives PLANNING on living with mom and dad to save money, in an arrangement that works out well for everyone.  There can sometimes be a lot of scorn heaped on people who "still live in their parents' basements" but it's not a one size fits all situation by any means.
  • Shame and finger-wagging disapproval inspires motivation in nobody.  This young person needed help, a lot of it, and their parents stepped up and helped them during their hard time.  Shaming the person for accepting that help, theoretically freely and lovingly offered, or the parents for helping out their child out of love, is just shitting on someone cause you can.

On the other...
  • YOU CAN'T CLAIM TO VALUE INDEPENDENCE AND SELF SUFFICIENCY WHEN YOU ARE ANYTHING BUT.  Period.  This person appears to be very grateful to their parents, which is.... basically the base minimum of what we can expect.  What are they going to do to make sure this (and by THIS I mean some 8 years of financial dependence and lack of responsibility) doesn't happen again?  What steps are they going to take to make sure they have a savings cushion instead of always looking to the bank of Mom and Dad?  What can they do to reduce the burden on their parents?  How will they repay their kindness?  No mention of any of those things, just "I took and I took and I took.  Thanks so much!  Maybe I'll take again."
  • This is the definition of "if you throw enough benjamin franklin's at it, the problem is solved!!" which is basically the antithesis of everything MMM.  Again, back to my first point-- no sense on the part of the child to repay (either with $$$ or actions), to live up to the generosity bestowed upon them, to reduce the burden however they can.  Forget shame for taking their parents' money-- try responsibility on for size.

iris lily

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2017, 07:45:35 AM »
Grim: you make some excellent points and I loved your criteria because it was right on! If it is not a 2 way street it breeds resentment.
agreed, Grim's post gets Best Post of the Day.

Ann

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2017, 11:08:11 AM »
Vivophoenix, you have ask why this article bothers so many of us.  I will explain why it bothers me.  You have also written about living at home.  You said you skimmed the article.  The author of this article did not save money by living with his* parents.  His parents paid his rent.  As for why it the article bothers me?   The first line of the article is:
"Iíve always taken pride in my ability to support myself."

.....why do you get a gold star for living apart from your family?
are you a better person if you do everything on your own?

I wouldn't say it makes one a better person, but it does make one a more independent person.  And the author claims pride in his ability to take care of himself, then admits:
"I havenít been consistent when it comes to paying my own way. "

Part of what rubs me the wrong way about this article is the self-delusion.

"Initially, I didnít want to accept money from my parents. Millennials get a bad rap for being lazy and entitled and letting their parents support them. While a lot of my friends do get financial help from family members, more often than not itís because theyíre working hard to make ends meet yet are still struggling, so their parents offer to step in. Laziness has nothing to do with it.
Some of my friends are totally cool with this type of setup, but that wasnít me. Iíd tell my parents they should enjoy their money.

And yet he takes their money every step of the way.

He didn't pay for school the first time, didn't pay for expenses.  Even after graduating,
"I wasnít making a lot of money. But what I did earn, as well as the small deposits my parents sometimes put in my bank account, allowed me to make ends meet without having to sacrifice like crazy...
His still needed help, even with college paid for and no student debt.

"The thing was, I realized pretty quickly that I hated my job. At first, my parents advised me not to quit until I had another one lined up.
Then he decides to go back to school, which his parents support.  They paid for most of the tuition and also contributed $500 a month for rent.  He quits graduate school after a year - doesn't complete it.  He quits to take a job.  But after then at some point he needs to move, and doesn't have the funds to do that. 
"Ultimately, they ended up funding the broker fee (approximately $1,600) and they also paid for a moving service (about $1,000).... it was a relief to not have to sweat my living situation.  "



....
also, people using the argument that they should be saving their money rather than spending it on him: we do not know their situation.at what point should you stop hoarding money, for money's sake? they have no debt, and want to help their adult kid. who cares

Probably sometime after the point that one can handle minor unexpected expenses, like moving expenses/car trouble / home maintenance / minor health care.

(*I don't know the gender of the author, but most people have used masculine, so I will do that too). 

rawr237

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2017, 11:57:54 AM »
Have mixed feelings about this article. I identify with the author a lot, since my parents paid my tuition, room, and board through undergrad. My dad (who manages the finances) is aware of the EOC concept, and always emphasized that when we graduated, we couldn't move home...and then they broke that rule for me, heh. Later, they loaned me a house down payment.

I lived at home for free while working at a co-op. I lived at home for rent ($500/mo?) when I started working, because I didn't know where I wanted to live. I lived at home (can't even remember if I paid) after moving into a rental condo and finding out it had FLEAS. But the second two instances, I tired of it quick. I love my personal space.

I was with him up until the grad school decision...his parents are paying for his apt and tuition and he still doesn't finish a 2-year program? Not sure why he didn't move home for grad school - or move away from NYC, in general.

The guy moved to the big city to work in a low paying field and was barely making ends meet. Sounds like he picked his first degree based on passion. It seems likely that his parents funding his passion-chasing is going to continue.

Also, that picture o_O that guy has a tiny dog or long-haired hamster on his head.

MightyAl

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2017, 12:28:17 PM »
I moved out and went to college and paid for it myself.  My parents would float me $100 when things got tight but that was rare.  I think that people don't want to change their lifestyle when they move out.  That is why they get Mom and Dad to foot the bill.  Why live in a crappy apartment when Mom and Dad will you give you a couple bucks for a better one?  Why eat top ramen for month when you run tight on funds just get a few bucks from Mom and Dad? 

I remember telling my Dad once how tight my finances were going to be one month after I was out of school and he told me that yeah that is going to be rough.

Discomfort and adversity breed character and I think that is what is lacking in a lot of people.  Facing a challenge and overcoming it makes for more interesting people.

My Dad has told me that he has put me in his will to get money along with my stepmom and brother.  I have told him that I could care less about the money and to give it all to me my stepmom.  All I want is for him to spend as much time with my family as he can while he is here.  Money can't get me that once he is gone.   

Hargrove

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2017, 01:21:28 PM »
Parents assume, just like the kids are taught, the kids just have to go to college and all will be well. But our college grad stats are from lifetime earnings from lifetimes past - modern college grad unemployment is extremely high, and lifetime earnings on the average interpretive dance degree are not high. We need to realize, both parents and students, that you can't spend 20-100k on a degree for a life's work for which there aren't any jobs. Underinformed kids incentivized to go to college by any means necessary are not prepared to deal with the reality of college and what it means as an investment. We require master's degrees in fields that pay less than a year of grad school in wages for some professions, and two-year degrees for others that pay more, and college admins keep spouting "follow your heart" to kids and then giving them 100k bills for their mime training like it wasn't cruel.

For the student's part, if your research on cuneiform in Manhattan is not paying for your apartment, and it never will, your "plan" to "hope for the best" is not a plan, and it really sucks that no one was supposed to tell you that LONG BEFORE NOW. But there it is.

moof

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Re: Bank of Mom and Dad...
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2017, 02:28:38 PM »
Vivophoenix, you have ask why this article bothers so many of us.  I will explain why it bothers me.  You have also written about living at home.  You said you skimmed the article.  The author of this article did not save money by living with his* parents.  His parents paid his rent.  As for why it the article bothers me?   The first line of the article is:
"Iíve always taken pride in my ability to support myself."

.....why do you get a gold star for living apart from your family?
are you a better person if you do everything on your own?
...
Ann, very good summary.

I don't think anybody has a major beef with someone getting help from mom and dad, or getting help with college, or living at home a little longer.  As you point out very well it is the entitlement and statement of Iíve always taken pride in my ability to support myself.

Reading the one sided descriptions of conversation about money with his parents I can only imagine them feeling like they needed to help poor little Johnny yet again so he didn't end up on the street, while he's thinking they were "cool" with it.  Nowhere does he mention anything about his parents finances, so it is hard to know if they were wealthy, or struggling middle class.  What was clear is he had no concern for how his subsidized Manhatten lifestyle, and career gallivanting impacted their finances or he would have at least mentioned he either felt bad about it, or that he knew it would be pocket change for them.  The result was that in my reading I detected zero concern on his part for his parents over 9 years of mooching.