The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Bobberth on July 10, 2014, 11:03:41 AM
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I'm just going to put this right here and leave it at, "WOW!"
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2014/07/04/american-dream/11122015/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2014/07/04/american-dream/11122015/)
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> that face when you spend more on vacation than kids' education
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Well at least they include maxing out your 401K
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*pats self on back for achieving American Dream on a fraction of this amount*
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That is interesting, I can certainly see it as being an average American dream, glad I'm not average :)
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We need to write a new script to post in the comment section: "The Mustachian Dream"
Here, I'll start:
Dual Income ~ $150,000 (Not because we need it, so we can FIRE)
HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
401K ~ $17,500
401K2 ~ $17,500
IRA ~ $5,500
IRA2 ~ $5,500
Income Tax ~ $15,000
Rent/Mortgage PITI ~ $10,000
Groceries ~ $3,000
Car Exp ~ $2,000
Medical Ins ~ $3,000
Utilities ~ $1,000
Cell/Web/Netflix ~ $750
Vacations (Post-Hack) ~ $1,000
Leftover for Post-Tax Investments ~ $61,000
Savings Rate ~ 76%
Years to FIRE ~ 6 ish
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
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Reminds me of Switchfoot's American Dream lyrics:
[/size]When success is equated with excess
The ambition for excess wrecks us
As the top of the mind becomes the bottom line
When success is equated with excess
[/size]If your time ain't be nothing but money
I start to feel really bad for you, honey
Maybe honey, put youre money
Where your mouths been running
If your time ain't be nothing but money
[/size]I want out of this machine
It doesnt feel like freedom
[/size]This aint my American dream
I wanna live and die for bigger things
Im tired of fighting for just me
This ain't my American dream
[/size]When success is equated with excess
When youre fighting for the Beamer, the Lexus
As the heart and soul breathing the company goals
Where success is equated with excess
[/size]I want out of this machine
It doesnt feel like freedom
[/size]This aint my American dream
I wanna live and die for bigger things
Im tired of fighting for just me
This ain't my American dream
[/size]'Cause babys always talking bout a ring
And talk has always been the cheapest thing
Is it true, would you do what I want you to
If I show up with the right amount of bling?
[/size]Like a puppet on a monetary string
Maybe weve been caught singing
Red, white, blue and green
But that aint my America
That aint my American dream
[/size]This aint my American dream
I wanna live and die for bigger things
Im tired of fighting for just me
This ain't my American dream
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That is interesting, I can certainly see it as being an average American dream, glad I'm not average :)
Very much in agreement. Jeez, what we could accomplish (and more quickly) with a family income that high...
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Well at least they include maxing out your 401K
Honestly, 30 years of doing that and you'd end up in pretty decent shape. Not early retirement shape, at that spending level, but decent. Assuming compounded interest, that's 1.75m in 30 years. Most people naturally taper off the spending, especially once they hit 60+. Which nicely explains how people manage to never "have enough money" all their working life, but aren't starving in retirement.
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We need to write a new script to post in the comment section: "The Mustachian Dream"
Here, I'll start:
Dual Income ~ $150,000 (Not because we need it, so we can FIRE)
HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
401K ~ $17,500
401K2 ~ $17,500
IRA ~ $5,500
IRA2 ~ $5,500
Income Tax ~ $15,000
Rent/Mortgage PITI ~ $10,000
Groceries ~ $3,000
Car Exp ~ $2,000
Medical Ins ~ $3,000
Utilities ~ $1,000
Cell/Web/Netflix ~ $750
Vacations (Post-Hack) ~ $1,000
Leftover for Post-Tax Investments ~ $61,000
Savings Rate ~ 76%
Years to FIRE ~ 6 ish
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
Federal income tax
Local income tax, if applicable
Medicare
Social security
Disability, if applicable (california takes it, dunno about others)
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Thanks Gimp. I skipped SS & Medicare completely - oops, so add another $9,325 to taxes. Round up to $10K for disability I guess but I don't pay that in MO. The $15K income tax line was 20% (15% fed, 5% state/local) of taxable income though. Still not a bad savings rate.
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At least they properly categorized cell phones, cable, and internet as "Extras" not a "Need".
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We need to write a new script to post in the comment section: "The Mustachian Dream"
Here, I'll start:
Dual Income ~ $150,000 (Not because we need it, so we can FIRE)
HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
401K ~ $17,500
401K2 ~ $17,500
IRA ~ $5,500
IRA2 ~ $5,500
Income Tax ~ $15,000
Rent/Mortgage PITI ~ $10,000
Groceries ~ $3,000
Car Exp ~ $2,000
Medical Ins ~ $3,000
Utilities ~ $1,000
Cell/Web/Netflix ~ $750
Vacations (Post-Hack) ~ $1,000
Leftover for Post-Tax Investments ~ $61,000
Savings Rate ~ 76%
Years to FIRE ~ 6 ish
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
I know some of you have crazy low food bills, but I don't see feeding a family of 4 on $250 a month unless we're eating oatmeal or millet for every meal. No we don't eat out, yes I make everything from scratch, yes I basically have a price book. A more realistic figure is about $600-$700 a month.
Vacation's for an entire year seem pretty low also. I figure there are about 3-5 vacations in there and half a dozen day trips. I'd probably double it or triple it.
Otherwise it looks pretty good.
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We need to write a new script to post in the comment section: "The Mustachian Dream"
Here, I'll start:
Dual Income ~ $150,000 (Not because we need it, so we can FIRE)
HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
401K ~ $17,500
401K2 ~ $17,500
IRA ~ $5,500
IRA2 ~ $5,500
Income Tax ~ $15,000
Rent/Mortgage PITI ~ $10,000
Groceries ~ $3,000
Car Exp ~ $2,000
Medical Ins ~ $3,000
Utilities ~ $1,000
Cell/Web/Netflix ~ $750
Vacations (Post-Hack) ~ $1,000
Leftover for Post-Tax Investments ~ $61,000
Savings Rate ~ 76%
Years to FIRE ~ 6 ish
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
I know some of you have crazy low food bills, but I don't see feeding a family of 4 on $250 a month unless we're eating oatmeal or millet for every meal. No we don't eat out, yes I make everything from scratch, yes I basically have a price book. A more realistic figure is about $600-$700 a month.
Vacation's for an entire year seem pretty low also. I figure there are about 3-5 vacations in there and half a dozen day trips. I'd probably double it or triple it.
Otherwise it looks pretty good.
Well I did call it a "Dream". Believe me, this is NOT anywhere near my budget or savings rate, so I hear you. All in, my mortgage is more in the $20K range with a 15 year loan in a top notch school district.
However, there are some badass people around here who spend like this, so I thought I'd try to picture the "ideal" mustachian setup for a family/couple to reach FIRE in a hurry.
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With regards to housing, I've been looking at options close to where I'm going to be working, and I figure that I can have a decent place with my own bedroom, a living room, and one or two baths for about $300 to $400 a person. And that's for renting.
Honestly, housing is as expensive as you make it. Once you learn to make do with less, it's not a challenge to spend less.
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How the hell do they have "4WD SUV" in the essential section?
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Greaper: I've been living for years on $30/month for groceries. Boston, SF bay area, Portland; not the cheapest places. It's a bit carb-heavy, but double the budget and I can easily get food I'd feed my own kids, if I had any. That would be $240/month for your traditional nuclear family. And four people eat cheaper than 4x 1 person, given the opportunity to buy bulk.
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
I live in in-town Atlanta in a "gentrifying" neighborhood and my mortgage is less than $800/month for 1500 ft^2. Admittedly, I'm not in the best school district (although there are some highly-rated charter schools nearby).
I would expect St. Louis, where Cheddar Stacker lives, to be even cheaper than that.
$1650/month for a mortgage is completely insane, unless you live in NYC, the SF Bay Area, or maybe DC.
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
I live in in-town Atlanta in a "gentrifying" neighborhood and my mortgage is less than $800/month for 1500 ft^2. Admittedly, I'm not in the best school district (although there are some highly-rated charter schools nearby).
I would expect St. Louis, where Cheddar Stacker lives, to be even cheaper than that.
$1650/month for a mortgage is completely insane, unless you live in NYC, the SF Bay Area, or maybe DC.
There are plenty of places in St. Louis where that is feasible. We live in mid-county which is pricey, but central with awesome public schools, so it's a trade-off, but yeah we are over $1650/month. On a 15 yr note though, we net $900+ in mortgage principal (equity) each month so it's not all bad. If I were more badass I could get a mortgage under $800 here. I have friends and relatives under that.
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I find it interesting to note that their 'essential' yearly car cost of $11K is greater than the average of ~$8K. Which I still think is high as my average, including depreciation, is probably less than $4k.
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I find it interesting to note that their 'essential' yearly car cost of $11K is greater than the average of ~$8K. Which I still think is high as my average, including depreciation, is probably less than $4k.
Yeah, but do you lease 2 AWD SUV's? Aren't they essential to your daily commute of 45 miles each way to your McMansion?
Seriously, who dreams of paying $11K/year for cars?
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How the hell do they have "4WD SUV" in the essential section?
haha I thought this was the most hilarious part too.
re. the $833/month mortgage, you could probably do that in Tulsa in a not-great school district but a non-warzone.
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4WD SUV right on the essentials. Like a slap in the face.
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The author missed adding in $10k+/year for select sports teams for the kids to get scholarships to college. This is the "dream" right?
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
I live in in-town Atlanta in a "gentrifying" neighborhood and my mortgage is less than $800/month for 1500 ft^2. Admittedly, I'm not in the best school district (although there are some highly-rated charter schools nearby).
I would expect St. Louis, where Cheddar Stacker lives, to be even cheaper than that.
$1650/month for a mortgage is completely insane, unless you live in NYC, the SF Bay Area, or maybe DC.
Are you including taxes in your mortgage or just a straight mortgage payment? My first house was $240,000 in West Hartford CT. Mortgage on that was $1950 with $5000 in taxes a year. That was a 3 bedroom cape cod in really ugly condition, 1 block from the highway. The house I'm in now is actually huge, but we got a steal on it from some motivated sellers. 4 beds in a tony suburb for $275,000, with only a $1650 mortgage. Comps are going for $330,000 3 years later so we netted tons of equity with the sale. My son also goes to a charter school that is rated number one in the state.
For me size doesn't really figure into housing. I've lived in some really cheap housing and the housing itself never bothered me. I couldn't get over having really strange, low class neighbors though, especially since I have kids now. If I could buy a cheap house in a neighborhood full of say professors that would be absolutely fine with me. I really don't want anymore googly eyed neighbors that wait until I get out of my car everyday to assault me with strange requests and stories. I also hate worrying about some of the shifty local hoods casing my home. A peaceful neighborhood populated with mid-level professionals is worth slightly more expensive housing.
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Greaper: I've been living for years on $30/month for groceries. Boston, SF bay area, Portland; not the cheapest places. It's a bit carb-heavy, but double the budget and I can easily get food I'd feed my own kids, if I had any. That would be $240/month for your traditional nuclear family. And four people eat cheaper than 4x 1 person, given the opportunity to buy bulk.
Yeah, I started a thread about this a few months ago. We eat very few carbs, if we did we'd have to reinforce the floors in our house. Without including alcohol that I generally make, we're at $600-$800 for the four of us depending on the month without eating out. That's meat once a day, lots of organic eggs, organic milk and lots of fruits and veggies.
Carbs make me feel like poop and they make my wife gain weight, not worth the cost savings in the long run.
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
I live in in-town Atlanta in a "gentrifying" neighborhood and my mortgage is less than $800/month for 1500 ft^2. Admittedly, I'm not in the best school district (although there are some highly-rated charter schools nearby).
I would expect St. Louis, where Cheddar Stacker lives, to be even cheaper than that.
$1650/month for a mortgage is completely insane, unless you live in NYC, the SF Bay Area, or maybe DC.
Are you including taxes in your mortgage or just a straight mortgage payment?
That includes taxes and insurance. (Principal and interest is $500ish.)
I have to admit though, my county has a large homestead exemption, which means that a small increase in my house value results in a large increase in my taxes, and I am indeed going to get hit with a large tax increase this year (which reminds me, I need to see if I still have time to appeal...)
I also have to admit that I got a good deal: my "fixer upper" house was ~$100k in about 2010 (now worth probably $150k+ -- while still being a fixer-upper!), while my next-door neighbor's similar but fixed-up house is probably worth twice that much and the larger house, newer house on the other side is probably worth three times as much.
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Yeah, I guess if you're buying organic cruelty-free free-range wild pink fluffy unicorn eggs, you'll spend $800. For us normals, it's $2 for a dozen.
My point being, you spend on what's important for you, but don't doubt others' ability to spend far less. $250 for four is easy.
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This is the DREAM. I have read books about the US in the 30s, and the DREAM was for their children to get high school diplomas. Did their kids all get high school diplomas - of course not. What the article forgets is that the DREAM is not reality - it is what people aspire to, and probably assume that they cannot get.
We can all DREAM of having a 4WD SUV, but that is not a reasonable reality for most of us because it is overkill, and is against some of our other dreams.
What I really object to is that media now seem to think that a DREAM is reality, and that everyone else (parents, government...) are down on you because you cannot obtain your dream by the time you finish school.
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
Median home price in my county is ~95K. Homes in my school district are closer to ~150K. I'm not going to say my HS sends many kids to Harvard, but it's a perfectly acceptable place to attend.
Buy a 150K home with a 20% downpayment and your mortgage will be ~$800. Extremely low crime, big yards, and affordable property taxes.
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Median home price in my county is $48,000 according to the Feds (as of December 2013). That makes for low mortgage payments. Ours were under $350 when we had them, even at 7.5% for a farm loan.
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
Median home price in my county is ~95K. Homes in my school district are closer to ~150K. I'm not going to say my HS sends many kids to Harvard, but it's a perfectly acceptable place to attend.
Buy a 150K home with a 20% downpayment and your mortgage will be ~$800. Extremely low crime, big yards, and affordable property taxes.
Where in Ohio? I grew up on the east side of Cleveland and median home prices in my burb were probably $150-200k.
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Yeah, I guess if you're buying organic cruelty-free free-range wild pink fluffy unicorn eggs, you'll spend $800. For us normals, it's $2 for a dozen.
My point being, you spend on what's important for you, but don't doubt others' ability to spend far less. $250 for four is easy.
Hmmm, if you're ok with the environmental impact of factory farms along with the health issues of hormone laden meat....have at it. $4 or so a dozen is worth negating that junk to me.
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
Median home price in my county is ~95K. Homes in my school district are closer to ~150K. I'm not going to say my HS sends many kids to Harvard, but it's a perfectly acceptable place to attend.
Buy a 150K home with a 20% downpayment and your mortgage will be ~$800. Extremely low crime, big yards, and affordable property taxes.
Where in Ohio? I grew up on the east side of Cleveland and median home prices in my burb were probably $150-200k.
Not too far from Springfield.
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We need to write a new script to post in the comment section: "The Mustachian Dream"
Here, I'll start:
Dual Income ~ $150,000 (Not because we need it, so we can FIRE)
HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
401K ~ $17,500
401K2 ~ $17,500
IRA ~ $5,500
IRA2 ~ $5,500
Income Tax ~ $15,000
Rent/Mortgage PITI ~ $10,000
Groceries ~ $3,000
Car Exp ~ $2,000
Medical Ins ~ $3,000
Utilities ~ $1,000
Cell/Web/Netflix ~ $750
Vacations (Post-Hack) ~ $1,000
Leftover for Post-Tax Investments ~ $61,000
Savings Rate ~ 76%
Years to FIRE ~ 6 ish
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
That's less than I would be paying per month if I hadn't paid my house off early. I live in a ~2,100 sq foot house in a nice neighborhood, nothing fancy, but sure as Hell not dangerous.
But I live in San Antonio, Texas. The same house in upstate NY would cost twice as much. In parts of CA, probably 4 times as much (or more). Your location will make a HUGE difference in your cost of living, including housing costs.
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Yeah, I guess if you're buying organic cruelty-free free-range wild pink fluffy unicorn eggs, you'll spend $800. For us normals, it's $2 for a dozen.
My point being, you spend on what's important for you, but don't doubt others' ability to spend far less. $250 for four is easy.
Hmmm, if you're ok with the environmental impact of factory farms along with the health issues of hormone laden meat....have at it. $4 or so a dozen is worth negating that junk to me.
Okay, I'm an environmental engineer, but I'm not a chicken expert, so I'll bite on this.
How, in your mind, does an "organic" (presumably free range and with full Constitutional rights) chicken make less waste, per capita, than a "factory farmed" chicken? Chickens eat, Chickens sh*t, Chickens lay eggs. I've never heard that a factory farmed chicken produces more sh*t per egg produced than a free range, self actualized, vegan, chicken.
You might think there is some health benefit to an organic chicken egg, but I'm not sure how you figure "organic" chickens create less waste than factory farmed chickens. The waste from those factory chickens is probably more easily collected and treated than the waste from a free range, fully empowered chicken.
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You guys have some crazy mortgages! I round my mortgage payment up every month to a whopping $400. That's taxes and insurance included. What the heck do you do with those fancy houses?
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Where in Ohio? I grew up on the east side of Cleveland and median home prices in my burb were probably $150-200k.
Must have been Mentor or Painesville or the like...Euclid, Wickliffe, Willoughby and Eastlake all still have houses for ~$100k with pretty decent schools to boot!
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You guys have some crazy mortgages! I round my mortgage payment up every month to a whopping $400. That's taxes and insurance included. What the heck do you do with those fancy houses?
I live in what the Midwest defines as a large community and the housing market is insane. People snatching up houses sometimes the day they are put on the market. I would love a $400 mortgage.
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It realty does vary by location. I have a $450 mortgage on a modest house just inside the city limits. But two hours away, in a similarly sized city in the same state, I'd be paying at least twice that.
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Reading about you guys and your 45K houses is making me a little depressed, as I sit here in Toronto where living close enough to work to bike will cost me 500K+, and moving to the farthest reaches of urban sprawl + driving everyday would get that down to about 200K. I really need to up my savings rate if I'm ever going to afford a house by the time I want to have a family.
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+1
Love this.
We need to write a new script to post in the comment section: "The Mustachian Dream"
Here, I'll start:
Dual Income ~ $150,000 (Not because we need it, so we can FIRE)
HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
401K ~ $17,500
401K2 ~ $17,500
IRA ~ $5,500
IRA2 ~ $5,500
Income Tax ~ $15,000
Rent/Mortgage PITI ~ $10,000
Groceries ~ $3,000
Car Exp ~ $2,000
Medical Ins ~ $3,000
Utilities ~ $1,000
Cell/Web/Netflix ~ $750
Vacations (Post-Hack) ~ $1,000
Leftover for Post-Tax Investments ~ $61,000
Savings Rate ~ 76%
Years to FIRE ~ 6 ish
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
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Reading about you guys and your 45K houses is making me a little depressed, as I sit here in Toronto where living close enough to work to bike will cost me 500K+, and moving to the farthest reaches of urban sprawl + driving everyday would get that down to about 200K. I really need to up my savings rate if I'm ever going to afford a house by the time I want to have a family.
My house was 35K but I did spend a decent amount ($8K?) on renovations. It's small, with a small lot and it isn't the greatest area but that's a trade I was willing to make. Is there a possibility of moving to a different area? Unless your wages are significant'y higher, it sounds like living in the Toronto area is going to delay FIRE for quite a while.
On the flip side... If you like where you live and your job then who cares? It's your life, you get to make the call.
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You guys have some crazy mortgages! I round my mortgage payment up every month to a whopping $400. That's taxes and insurance included. What the heck do you do with those fancy houses?
Live near family and high paying job :-(
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Reading about you guys and your 45K houses is making me a little depressed, as I sit here in Toronto where living close enough to work to bike will cost me 500K+, and moving to the farthest reaches of urban sprawl + driving everyday would get that down to about 200K. I really need to up my savings rate if I'm ever going to afford a house by the time I want to have a family.
There is a third option, which is to toughen up and live in a less-fancy neighborhood close to work. In Atlanta, for example, a house 1 mile northeast of downtown might be $500,000 while a similar house 1 mile southwest of downtown might be $50,000. (The southwest example is in a "warzone" though, so it might be better to compromise and get the $150,000 house 1 mile southeast of downtown instead.)
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You guys have some crazy mortgages! I round my mortgage payment up every month to a whopping $400. That's taxes and insurance included. What the heck do you do with those fancy houses?
Live near family and high paying job :-(
At night we host a disco, and during the day we rent it out to a group of Cubans who roll cigars on our expansive countertops! Very profitable.
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You guys have some crazy mortgages! I round my mortgage payment up every month to a whopping $400. That's taxes and insurance included. What the heck do you do with those fancy houses?
Live near family and high paying job :-(
At night we host a disco, and during the day we rent it out to a group of Cubans who roll cigars on our expansive countertops! Very profitable.
Doesn't the disco run up your electric bills? The lights and sound systems seem pretty power hungry.
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You guys have some crazy mortgages! I round my mortgage payment up every month to a whopping $400. That's taxes and insurance included. What the heck do you do with those fancy houses?
Live near family and high paying job :-(
At night we host a disco, and during the day we rent it out to a group of Cubans who roll cigars on our expansive countertops! Very profitable.
Doesn't the disco run up your electric bills? The lights and sound systems seem pretty power hungry.
The lights and sound systems are powered by love and dreams. Very groovy man.
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They seem to be assuming only one salary as they are only maxing out one 401k. There are lots and lots of two income households in these here modern times.
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Man, I really need to move. Median home price in my county is $442,000. And I purposely moved farther away from work when I moved here just to avoid the $600k houses the next county over.
DC metro...high real estate, terrible commutes. Is it the most anti-mustachian place in America?
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DC metro...high real estate, terrible commutes. Is it the most anti-mustachian place in America?
Between that and the fact that most of the economy is based on political waste instead of work that produces genuine value, it certainly is!
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Yeah, I guess if you're buying organic cruelty-free free-range wild pink fluffy unicorn eggs, you'll spend $800. For us normals, it's $2 for a dozen.
My point being, you spend on what's important for you, but don't doubt others' ability to spend far less. $250 for four is easy.
Hmmm, if you're ok with the environmental impact of factory farms along with the health issues of hormone laden meat....have at it. $4 or so a dozen is worth negating that junk to me.
Okay, I'm an environmental engineer, but I'm not a chicken expert, so I'll bite on this.
How, in your mind, does an "organic" (presumably free range and with full Constitutional rights) chicken make less waste, per capita, than a "factory farmed" chicken? Chickens eat, Chickens sh*t, Chickens lay eggs. I've never heard that a factory farmed chicken produces more sh*t per egg produced than a free range, self actualized, vegan, chicken.
You might think there is some health benefit to an organic chicken egg, but I'm not sure how you figure "organic" chickens create less waste than factory farmed chickens. The waste from those factory chickens is probably more easily collected and treated than the waste from a free range, fully empowered chicken.
You're right, the devil's in the details. The simple monikers of free range and organic don't necessarily mean that the product is healthier for you or produces less waste. Rather, a chicken that lives on a traditional farm where there's a symbiosis between the crops and the animals means that there really isn't any waste in the traditional sense. Chickens that actually walk through fields and scratch and eat bugs, poop in dispersed areas where the soil and plants can actually process the nitrogen and provide it for plants grown in the field. That negates the need for things like artificial fertilizers.
So when possible I buy my eggs from an actual farmer that I can talk to at the local farmers market. If I wasn't so busy with young children I'd probably raise backyard chickens.
The waste produced by factory farms is a major problem. I'm sure you're driven through areas with cattle lots and areas where cattle are grazing free range, what's the big difference? The smell. From my research, factory farm waste creates huge environmental problems when it comes to disposal. Whereas free range animal waste is pretty much a non issue, except for the poor souls that step in a fresh cow patty.
The Omnivores Dilemma has an entire section devoted to this subject. I remember an environmental science class in college where the professor showed us pictures of himself at a factory chicken farm, he was standing in waders where the chicken waste rose to his waist. That's not easy to get rid of.
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Where in Ohio? I grew up on the east side of Cleveland and median home prices in my burb were probably $150-200k.
Must have been Mentor or Painesville or the like...Euclid, Wickliffe, Willoughby and Eastlake all still have houses for ~$100k with pretty decent schools to boot!
Interesting, I haven't lived in Cleveland in 12 or so years but I lived in Highland Hts. Mayfield used to be one of the better school districts in the state, from what I understand it's really gone downhill in the past few years. IIRC, Euclid and Wickliffe were populated by a lower ses population and had marginal schools compared to Beechwood or Mayfield. I remember a wrestling meet in Euclid in middle school where we had to be escorted out by a police officer because there was a phalanx of tough guys yelling and throwing things at us as we tried to get back on the bus.
I don't really think I'd be comfortable sending my kids to a school that had that sort of violent element. The Jersey Shore wanna-bes in the Mayfield area were bad enough to deal with.
Like I said, I pay more for a quiet neighborhood in a great school district where I don't have to deal with domestic issues, wild teens, or theft from my neighbors. I've always found lower ses neighborhoods to be too stressful to deal with on a long term basis and the housing gains never seemed very good.
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Wow, totally jealous of the cheap housing you guys have. In Perth, even the crappiest house in a war zone suburb will cost at least $350,000 and that's no where near the city.
As for the organic/non-organic debate, well I'm firmly on the organic, non GMO side. The amount of hormones, drugs and chemicals they pump into factory farmed chickens, pigs and beef is scary, and I don't want to be eating it, nor do I appreciate it running off into our rivers and oceans, poisoning our fish stocks. I firmly believe that a lot of today's illnesses stem from factory farming and the use of various poisons and chemicals. I am willing to pay a bit extra to support organic farming and am definitely planning to be more self sufficient in my retirement.
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Interesting, I haven't lived in Cleveland in 12 or so years but I lived in Highland Hts. Mayfield used to be one of the better school districts in the state, from what I understand it's really gone downhill in the past few years. IIRC, Euclid and Wickliffe were populated by a lower ses population and had marginal schools compared to Beechwood or Mayfield. I remember a wrestling meet in Euclid in middle school where we had to be escorted out by a police officer because there was a phalanx of tough guys yelling and throwing things at us as we tried to get back on the bus.
Ok...perhaps Euclid was a bad example to throw into the mix, but I have a friend who just bought a place in Wickliffe and a cousin who bought a house in Willoughby, both nice places in decent neighborhoods. Obviously there are nicer places/schools like Pepper Pike, Solon, or Orange in the area, but for LCOL and reasonable public schools, not bad. YMMV of course
I can't really comment on the school situation in Mayfield, but it going downhill isn't that far-fetched. Highland Hts. is indeed one of those "nicer suburbs" I was alluding to, although I didn't call it out specifically.
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$833 a month for a mortgage, do you live in a warzone? I've never had a crazy sized house and my mortgage is currently the lowest it's ever been at $1650 and that includes an entrance into the best school in the state.
I live in in-town Atlanta in a "gentrifying" neighborhood and my mortgage is less than $800/month for 1500 ft^2. Admittedly, I'm not in the best school district (although there are some highly-rated charter schools nearby).
I would expect St. Louis, where Cheddar Stacker lives, to be even cheaper than that.
$1650/month for a mortgage is completely insane, unless you live in NYC, the SF Bay Area, or maybe DC.
I'm paying about $650/mo for a three bedroom house here in Buffalo. I live in a nice, quiet neighborhood (near the zoo, for anyone who knows the city).
Smaller cities are cheap.
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HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
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There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
I thought the limit was $6550? I would love to put some more in!
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Yeah, I guess if you're buying organic cruelty-free free-range wild pink fluffy unicorn eggs, you'll spend $800. For us normals, it's $2 for a dozen.
My point being, you spend on what's important for you, but don't doubt others' ability to spend far less. $250 for four is easy.
Hmmm, if you're ok with the environmental impact of factory farms along with the health issues of hormone laden meat....have at it. $4 or so a dozen is worth negating that junk to me.
Okay, I'm an environmental engineer, but I'm not a chicken expert, so I'll bite on this.
How, in your mind, does an "organic" (presumably free range and with full Constitutional rights) chicken make less waste, per capita, than a "factory farmed" chicken? Chickens eat, Chickens sh*t, Chickens lay eggs. I've never heard that a factory farmed chicken produces more sh*t per egg produced than a free range, self actualized, vegan, chicken.
You might think there is some health benefit to an organic chicken egg, but I'm not sure how you figure "organic" chickens create less waste than factory farmed chickens. The waste from those factory chickens is probably more easily collected and treated than the waste from a free range, fully empowered chicken.
(jumps on soapbox)...
I can't see how a truly free range chicken could be vegan. I've actually seen eggs being marketed as such and wanted to point out that it would be impossible under the conditions that most people believe to be free range. Chickens eat bugs. But industry standard defines free range as giving a lot of chickens access to one small fenced run that is devoid of nature - that's not what I consider free.
Agree with you that a chicken produces the same amount of waste in any setting.
Waste issues are a side effect of overcrowding. FWIW, the "humane" producers are just as likely to be overcrowded too. The market supports this. It's difficult for any commercial producer to avoid it because chickens are cheap but land is expensive.. Fancy buzzwords like "cage free" do not tell consumers about overcrowding. Don't fall for marketing gimmicks and pay more for eggs that are not better than cheap ones.
If you eat eggs and care about conditions then a backyard set up might be better but talk to the owner. Lots of small hobby set ups fall into the same trap as the bigger ones ( too many chickens in too little space).
True free range eggs from healthy chickens are very different from mass production eggs and worth the price. I have YET to see any egg from any chain store that resembled natural eggs.
I am all for paying more for better food except when it's not really better.
OK, I'll get off the soap box now.
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HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
....
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
I thought the limit was $6550? I would love to put some more in!
It is, which I noticed a few days after posting while looking into something else. I did that whole thing quickly off the top of my head with a little back of the envelope math. It was more as an example of what you can do. There is a $1K catch-up contribution but I'll assume you're under 55 years old.
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HSA ~ $7,200 family contribution
....
There, fixed. Any adjustments from anyone else?
I thought the limit was $6550? I would love to put some more in!
It is, which I noticed a few days after posting while looking into something else. I did that whole thing quickly off the top of my head with a little back of the envelope math. It was more as an example of what you can do. There is a $1K catch-up contribution but I'll assume you're under 55 years old.
Thanks for the clarification! I was hoping you found some secret loop-hole :-)
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If any of you watch real time with bill maher this article was brought up on Fridays episode. The general consensus with the panel was that this article described a pretty "plain" lifestyle and it's sad that the average American household makes less than half of this. All depends on how you read it I guess!
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Yeah, I guess if you're buying organic cruelty-free free-range wild pink fluffy unicorn eggs, you'll spend $800. For us normals, it's $2 for a dozen.
My point being, you spend on what's important for you, but don't doubt others' ability to spend far less. $250 for four is easy.
Hmmm, if you're ok with the environmental impact of factory farms along with the health issues of hormone laden meat....have at it. $4 or so a dozen is worth negating that junk to me.
Okay, I'm an environmental engineer, but I'm not a chicken expert, so I'll bite on this.
How, in your mind, does an "organic" (presumably free range and with full Constitutional rights) chicken make less waste, per capita, than a "factory farmed" chicken? Chickens eat, Chickens sh*t, Chickens lay eggs. I've never heard that a factory farmed chicken produces more sh*t per egg produced than a free range, self actualized, vegan, chicken.
You might think there is some health benefit to an organic chicken egg, but I'm not sure how you figure "organic" chickens create less waste than factory farmed chickens. The waste from those factory chickens is probably more easily collected and treated than the waste from a free range, fully empowered chicken.
You're right, the devil's in the details. The simple monikers of free range and organic don't necessarily mean that the product is healthier for you or produces less waste. Rather, a chicken that lives on a traditional farm where there's a symbiosis between the crops and the animals means that there really isn't any waste in the traditional sense. Chickens that actually walk through fields and scratch and eat bugs, poop in dispersed areas where the soil and plants can actually process the nitrogen and provide it for plants grown in the field. That negates the need for things like artificial fertilizers.
So when possible I buy my eggs from an actual farmer that I can talk to at the local farmers market. If I wasn't so busy with young children I'd probably raise backyard chickens.
The waste produced by factory farms is a major problem. I'm sure you're driven through areas with cattle lots and areas where cattle are grazing free range, what's the big difference? The smell. From my research, factory farm waste creates huge environmental problems when it comes to disposal. Whereas free range animal waste is pretty much a non issue, except for the poor souls that step in a fresh cow patty.
The Omnivores Dilemma has an entire section devoted to this subject. I remember an environmental science class in college where the professor showed us pictures of himself at a factory chicken farm, he was standing in waders where the chicken waste rose to his waist. That's not easy to get rid of.
I used to work in a gourmet restaurant that served free range chickens. I don't know about the pros and cons of the hormones but it was nice to think they lived reasonably decent farmyard lives instead of in an industrial cage. But the big difference was they tasted somewhat better and were somewhat more expensive. But not fabulously so in either case. If the cost is so much now they merit their own line in the grocery budget it's better to either buy industrial chickens or go without.