Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks

[radram]

Read this morning:


http://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/buying/11-confessions-of-a-car-dealer/ar-AAcaNxK


I didn't pay much attention until I read this:
 
"Be realistic. Don't come in trying to get a $35,000 car for $200 a month. Customers are still looking for that $200 payment. That's what I was looking for in 1989. The reasonable payment is $300, $400, or $500 a month. If you're realistic, you can spend invoice only, and that's before rebates."

How many of you are driving a vehicle that would NOT be fully paid off after 1 year of $500 payments (or close to it).


I often feel like I am living in another world.  $500 is REASONABLE??? WTF??

[radram]

Sorry... "from" car salesmen

[Vorpal]

To be fair, he was talking about people wanting a $35k car for $200/month, which is not reasonable. But then again, neither is a $35k car.

My car would have taken 2 years to pay off at $500/mo.

[Chris22]

If the average new car is +/- $30k, which it is, yeah, a $500/mo car payment is reasonable for the average new car.

FWIW, both of my cars have a payment of a little over $500/mo.  One cost $28k + TTL (financed at .9%, so I didn't bother putting anything down) and the other was +/- $40k, with ~$10k down (wife hit a deer, totaled her car, payout was the down payment) at about 1.9%.  We try to stagger payments (pay off a car in 4 years and drive it for 8, so you only have one payment at a time, but the totaled car threw a wrench in that plan.  Combined payments are still less than 10% of our net income (which doesn't include money sucked out for investments, savings, etc). 

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

[I'm a red panda]

If I paid $500 a month (I guess assuming 0% interest, which of course payment plans usually do not), my car would have taken 34 months to pay off.

On that 35k car at $500 a month- how long is the payment for (seems like that matters a lot!) and what kind of downpayment (seems like that matters a lot too.)  Because $35,000 at $500 a month is 70 months- and that is with no interest.  Surely this isn't really happening?


I just went for 100% down and skipped the payment.

[Vorpal]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

Ah, the old "I work hard so I deserve X" argument. At least you can afford a little bit of that attitude with a $170k/yr household income.

Btw, Fits are actually pretty nice cars. I drive the Mazda equivalent, a Mazda2.

[Chris22]

If I paid $500 a month (I guess assuming 0% interest, which of course payment plans usually do not), my car would have taken 34 months to pay off.

On that 35k car at $500 a month- how long is the payment for (seems like that matters a lot!) and what kind of downpayment (seems like that matters a lot too.)  Because $35,000 at $500 a month is 70 months- and that is with no interest.  Surely this isn't really happening?


I just went for 100% down and skipped the payment.

Simple math would tell you that $30k at 60 months is $500/mo.  Most car loans these days are <3%, so almost no interest. 

I flipped my numbers above, the more expensive car is .9%, the other at 1.9%.  I think I financed $30.5 or $30.7k, and at 1.9% my payment is $535/mo. 

[Chris22]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

Ah, the old "I work hard so I deserve X" argument. At least you can afford a little bit of that attitude with a $170k/yr household income.

Btw, Fits are actually pretty nice cars. I drive the Mazda equivalent, a Mazda2.

No, I don't *deserve* anything, but I *want* something.  Both the Fit and the Mazda 2 have about 100-120hp, which is unacceptably slow to me.  HHI is actually closer to about $200k, give or take, not including rental income. 

[EricP]

The worst part about this is how people look at cars as a car payment.  Cars cost $X per month.  No, they don't.  MMM has talked about this numerous times, so I'm just rehashing stuff from the blog, but it just annoys me when people talk about how they got such and such car for only $200 a month and their friend is paying $300 a month for the same car, completely ignoring the fact that they have different loan lengths.

[Vorpal]

No, I don't *deserve* anything, but I *want* something.  Both the Fit and the Mazda 2 have about 100-120hp, which is unacceptably slow to me.  HHI is actually closer to about $200k, give or take, not including rental income.

Sounds like you're killing it! Congrats on working your way to a high income. I understand wanting things that you don't need; I think most of us give in to those desires here and there; at your income level, you can fulfill some of those more expensive desires and still have a great savings rate.

I only find my 100hp to be inadequate when carrying 2+ adult passengers (excluding the driver). Usually it's just me, though, and the car is pretty zippy!

[zephyr911]

I'm paying $454/mo on my used Volt, mitigated by $200+ in gas savings compared to my previous car. I really don't fixate on the payment itself - the decision was based on personal values and long-term TCO. APR is 2.25%, less than current inflation. I'll pay it off on schedule unless DTI becomes an issue for investment financing, and it will stay in the family forever. It runs me about $20/mo in electricity and another $20 in gas for 1500+ miles (mostly business-related).

As far as advice from car salesmen... letting the fox guard the henhouse is always a dumb idea.

Related: one of the few services I refuse to get from USAA is investment advice, not just because they're obviously too conservative for today's conditions, but because you can barely get into the introductory phases without them trying to sell you their own insurance and investment products. Obvious conflict of interest is obvious.

[EricP]

Why'd you choose to go with a Volt?  There's only a very narrow range of driving profiles in which it makes sense to get those instead of a full BEV or a normal Hybrid.

[I'm a red panda]

If I paid $500 a month (I guess assuming 0% interest, which of course payment plans usually do not), my car would have taken 34 months to pay off.

On that 35k car at $500 a month- how long is the payment for (seems like that matters a lot!) and what kind of downpayment (seems like that matters a lot too.)  Because $35,000 at $500 a month is 70 months- and that is with no interest.  Surely this isn't really happening?


I just went for 100% down and skipped the payment.

Simple math would tell you that $30k at 60 months is $500/mo.  Most car loans these days are <3%, so almost no interest. 
 

Clearly I know how to divide, I did it for 35k at $500 a month.  :)

My question is- what are the actualities of these loans.  Is interest really so negligible it doesn't add anytime to the term (that isn't possible). Do people really put nothing down?

[LalsConstant]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

The Fit is a very nice vehicle with many luxury features even in the LX trim.  It's well made, relatively fun to drive, has all the gizmos and doodads, comfortable and incredibly functional.  I would consider one even if I were the richest man on the planet.

[I'm a red panda]

I really liked the Fit when I test drove it. But the distance from the rear bumper to the back seat was just way too small for me to feel comfortable with an infant back there, so I went with a slightly bigger car.

[Jags4186]

If I paid $500 a month (I guess assuming 0% interest, which of course payment plans usually do not), my car would have taken 34 months to pay off.

On that 35k car at $500 a month- how long is the payment for (seems like that matters a lot!) and what kind of downpayment (seems like that matters a lot too.)  Because $35,000 at $500 a month is 70 months- and that is with no interest.  Surely this isn't really happening?


I just went for 100% down and skipped the payment.

Simple math would tell you that $30k at 60 months is $500/mo.  Most car loans these days are <3%, so almost no interest. 
 

Clearly I know how to divide, I did it for 35k at $500 a month.  :)

My question is- what are the actualities of these loans.  Is interest really so negligible it doesn't add anytime to the term (that isn't possible). Do people really put nothing down?

I bought a 29.xk car for 0 down .9% interest.  60 months, $499.73/mo.  I'll end up paying it off about 1.5 years early later this year.  For a few months I was churning some credit cards for bonusesnand was paying extra on the car to hit minimum spend requirements.  Smartest decision I ever made?  Absolutely not, I should have bought a used car in the 13-18k range all in.  But hey you live and learn.  I'll keep this one for a while afterwards.

Simple fact is if you can borrow money at 0% or 0.9%, you might as well take out the loan instead of taking money out of investments.  Also, I found you get a slightly better deal if you take the loan since the dealerships are generally incentivized to make the loans.

[mm1970]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

Ah, the old "I work hard so I deserve X" argument. At least you can afford a little bit of that attitude with a $170k/yr household income.

Btw, Fits are actually pretty nice cars. I drive the Mazda equivalent, a Mazda2.

I don't work hard so I can drive a crappy car and live in a tiny house with no garage and only one bathroom, and eat a bunch of beans and rice.  Oh wait, I do.

Sigh. 

But I've got year-round great weather.  "A small house and a big beach", that's my mantra.

Though I do wonder "what if" sometimes.  I'm pretty happy living here, but for example - I have friends who bought houses at different times, and it's a visible difference.
vacations to Europe vs. camping
Eating lunch out every day vs. beans and rice

It's not like I would want to take lavish vacations or eat out every day, but a $500k difference in house price makes a big difference on the bottom line.

[Chris22]

If I paid $500 a month (I guess assuming 0% interest, which of course payment plans usually do not), my car would have taken 34 months to pay off.

On that 35k car at $500 a month- how long is the payment for (seems like that matters a lot!) and what kind of downpayment (seems like that matters a lot too.)  Because $35,000 at $500 a month is 70 months- and that is with no interest.  Surely this isn't really happening?


I just went for 100% down and skipped the payment.

Simple math would tell you that $30k at 60 months is $500/mo.  Most car loans these days are <3%, so almost no interest. 
 

Clearly I know how to divide, I did it for 35k at $500 a month.  :)

My question is- what are the actualities of these loans.  Is interest really so negligible it doesn't add anytime to the term (that isn't possible). Do people really put nothing down?

So using my loan, $30,500 (give or take) at 1.9% for 60 months gives a payment of ~$535.  $535 x 60 = $32,100, so your interest is about $1600.  So basically $30 of my $535 payment is interest.  To me, that's a bargain to keep money in investments and not tied up in an illiquid asset.  YMMV.  And yes, I considered putting down money, but upon doing the math, why bother?

[Chris22]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

The Fit is a very nice vehicle with many luxury features even in the LX trim.  It's well made, relatively fun to drive, has all the gizmos and doodads, comfortable and incredibly functional.  I would consider one even if I were the richest man on the planet.

It's waaaay too slow and underpowered for me.  Put a few people in it, turn on the A/C, and it's terrible.  I drove a Civic in college, same problem. 

[The Accidental Mustachian]

FWIW, both of my cars have a payment of a little over $500/mo.  One cost $28k + TTL (financed at .9%, so I didn't bother putting anything down) and the other was +/- $40k,

If depreciation is similar to the uk don't forget to add another $500 to each car each month to cover that. (for the first 3 or four years at least.)

Me i'm delighted to see people buy new cars, and joyous when i read ever more record sales of new cars. It keeps the 2nd hand market depressed and means bargains for me.

Keep up the good work Chris. Although it would help if you hung onto them for 10 years as 8 is just a little to new for my tastes, i like them properly run in.

[The Guru]

From the comments:

"I hate going to a car dealership It is one of the mose anoying thisng that ihave to do every 3 yrs."[sic]

S.M.H.

[LalsConstant]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

The Fit is a very nice vehicle with many luxury features even in the LX trim.  It's well made, relatively fun to drive, has all the gizmos and doodads, comfortable and incredibly functional.  I would consider one even if I were the richest man on the planet.

It's waaaay too slow and underpowered for me.  Put a few people in it, turn on the A/C, and it's terrible.  I drove a Civic in college, same problem.

For NASCAR maybe.  I've had four 300 pound men in it during the Texas summer.  I am not saying the Fit is a Cadillac or something I am simply saying it's not a POS.

For the record your choice of vehicle is fine but small cars are better than they ever have been.  I used to think there was no way a 130 hP engine with a CVT transmission was ever going to be good enough but I was wrong.

90 percent or more of my driving is moving one person and less than 20 pounds of their stuff.  As dad used to say use the right tool for the job.

[zephyr911]

Why'd you choose to go with a Volt?  There's only a very narrow range of driving profiles in which it makes sense to get those instead of a full BEV or a normal Hybrid.

I'm square in the middle of that range. Want details? :)

[Chris22]

FWIW, both of my cars have a payment of a little over $500/mo.  One cost $28k + TTL (financed at .9%, so I didn't bother putting anything down) and the other was +/- $40k,

If depreciation is similar to the uk don't forget to add another $500 to each car each month to cover that. (for the first 3 or four years at least.)

Uh, no, that's not how depreciation works.  I'm realizing depreciation at $535/mo, my car payment.  You don't add $500/mo because I can only realize $30,500 of total depreciation (plus interest). 

[Jack]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

Ah, the old "I work hard so I deserve X" argument. At least you can afford a little bit of that attitude with a $170k/yr household income.

Btw, Fits are actually pretty nice cars. I drive the Mazda equivalent, a Mazda2.

No, I don't *deserve* anything, but I *want* something.  Both the Fit and the Mazda 2 have about 100-120hp, which is unacceptably slow to me.  HHI is actually closer to about $200k, give or take, not including rental income.

Fine, then get an older sports car (e.g. a C5 Corvette) or something. At least then you're paying for something relatively worthwhile instead of just depreciation. There's still no excuse for buying a new car!

[Chris22]

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

Ah, the old "I work hard so I deserve X" argument. At least you can afford a little bit of that attitude with a $170k/yr household income.

Btw, Fits are actually pretty nice cars. I drive the Mazda equivalent, a Mazda2.

No, I don't *deserve* anything, but I *want* something.  Both the Fit and the Mazda 2 have about 100-120hp, which is unacceptably slow to me.  HHI is actually closer to about $200k, give or take, not including rental income.

Fine, then get an older sports car (e.g. a C5 Corvette) or something. At least then you're paying for something relatively worthwhile instead of just depreciation. There's still no excuse for buying a new car!

I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.  That's a terrible ROI in my mind.  For my daily drivers, I expect them to go about 150k before I replace them (I don't care to drive a car older than that as a daily driver) so I'm trading about 20% of the life (30k over 150k) for about 3% of the cost ($1k/$30k).  Why would I do that?  And that's before you factor in the unknowns for those first 30k miles (how was it maintained, was it maintained? was it abused, etc> 

[EricP]

Why'd you choose to go with a Volt?  There's only a very narrow range of driving profiles in which it makes sense to get those instead of a full BEV or a normal Hybrid.

I'm square in the middle of that range. Want details? :)

Yes please.

[Jack]

I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

Good!

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

[DecD]

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

We bought my car during cash for clunkers, and the selection of used vehicles in the area of the variety I was looking for was almost nil and priced very close to new.  I was really surprised.

[Chris22]

I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

Good!

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

You can not believe it all you want. 

At my local dealer, here's a 2014 RDX (TWO model years old now, as they just released a facelifted version).  It has 15k miles and is offered at $34k.

http://www.mullerswoodfieldacura.com/certified-inventory/index.htm?listingConfigId=auto-certified-used&year=2014&internetPrice=&odometer=&model=RDX&trim=&start=0&sort=&facetbrowse=true&searchLinkText=SEARCH&showFacetCounts=true&showRadius=false&showSubmit=true&showSelections=true

MSRP of that model, $35,920.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gbv=2&oq=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...967.8050.0.8689.17.15.0.2.0.0.468.2837.2-4j3j2.9.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..9.8.2619.cJM2b9KUJUI

$2k savings for 15k miles AND as pointed out, there was a recent update which will depress values. 

New cars do not depreciate the way they used to.  It's just the way of the market now. 

[mtn]

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

Take a look at many Honduh's and Toyota's (and Acura is a Honda). This is often true--the Fit is actually the perfect example. A used model was going for about the same as a brand new one, up to about 2 years and 35,000 miles. Might as well pay the extra grand and get the warranty.

And I completely agree with Chris on this. Fit is nice, it serves its purpose. But I'd much rather have something a little bigger, a little faster, a little better all around. That may only be an Accord, but it is more. When you've spent time in Benzes, BMW's, Lexus's, Infiniti's, Acura's, etc., you find it hard to downgrade to a Fit. It is a great car with great fit and finish and gizmos, but it just isn't as good. The sound deadening. The touch. The stereo, the wood/aluminum/carbon fiber trim. It adds up.

(I have owned everything from a Corolla to a Miata to a BMW 3 series to a Tundra. Current vehicles for me and fiance are Corolla and Miata)

[vivophoenix]

I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

Good!

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

You can not believe it all you want. 

At my local dealer, here's a 2014 RDX (TWO model years old now, as they just released a facelifted version).  It has 15k miles and is offered at $34k.

http://www.mullerswoodfieldacura.com/certified-inventory/index.htm?listingConfigId=auto-certified-used&year=2014&internetPrice=&odometer=&model=RDX&trim=&start=0&sort=&facetbrowse=true&searchLinkText=SEARCH&showFacetCounts=true&showRadius=false&showSubmit=true&showSelections=true

MSRP of that model, $35,920.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gbv=2&oq=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...967.8050.0.8689.17.15.0.2.0.0.468.2837.2-4j3j2.9.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..9.8.2619.cJM2b9KUJUI

$2k savings for 15k miles AND as pointed out, there was a recent update which will depress values. 

New cars do not depreciate the way they used to.  It's just the way of the market now.

can you not get this vehicle non-CPO?

http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/5071214252.html

[Chris22]

I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

Good!

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

You can not believe it all you want. 

At my local dealer, here's a 2014 RDX (TWO model years old now, as they just released a facelifted version).  It has 15k miles and is offered at $34k.

http://www.mullerswoodfieldacura.com/certified-inventory/index.htm?listingConfigId=auto-certified-used&year=2014&internetPrice=&odometer=&model=RDX&trim=&start=0&sort=&facetbrowse=true&searchLinkText=SEARCH&showFacetCounts=true&showRadius=false&showSubmit=true&showSelections=true

MSRP of that model, $35,920.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gbv=2&oq=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...967.8050.0.8689.17.15.0.2.0.0.468.2837.2-4j3j2.9.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..9.8.2619.cJM2b9KUJUI

$2k savings for 15k miles AND as pointed out, there was a recent update which will depress values. 

New cars do not depreciate the way they used to.  It's just the way of the market now.

can you not get this vehicle CPO?

Eh?  The linked one IS CPO.  2y/o and 15k miles and I save $2k.  Woohoo.  Not.

[Chris22]

I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

Good!

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

You can not believe it all you want. 

At my local dealer, here's a 2014 RDX (TWO model years old now, as they just released a facelifted version).  It has 15k miles and is offered at $34k.

http://www.mullerswoodfieldacura.com/certified-inventory/index.htm?listingConfigId=auto-certified-used&year=2014&internetPrice=&odometer=&model=RDX&trim=&start=0&sort=&facetbrowse=true&searchLinkText=SEARCH&showFacetCounts=true&showRadius=false&showSubmit=true&showSelections=true

MSRP of that model, $35,920.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gbv=2&oq=2014+RDX+AWD+MSRP&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3...967.8050.0.8689.17.15.0.2.0.0.468.2837.2-4j3j2.9.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..9.8.2619.cJM2b9KUJUI

$2k savings for 15k miles AND as pointed out, there was a recent update which will depress values. 

New cars do not depreciate the way they used to.  It's just the way of the market now.

can you not get this vehicle non-CPO?

http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/5071214252.html

Uh, yeah, I could do that, but that's apples and llamas.  I'm talking about the decision to buy it with 0 miles or 15-30k miles and the minimal depreciation.  You're suggesting I buy one with 100k miles.  I'm not interested in doing that, for a wide variety of reasons. 

[LalsConstant]

I am just glad my level of hedonic adaptation is still relatively low when it comes to what is essentially a rolling transportation appliance.  I see no value in having 180 hp if 130 will suffice etc.

It's actually amazing what cars come with now on darn near any vehicle.  I actually wish they'd sell some without so many power features and or sensors so there would be less to go wrong but I understand it's all about economy of scale.

[Chris22]

I am just glad my level of hedonic adaptation is still relatively low when it comes to what is essentially a rolling transportation appliance.  I see no value in having 180 hp if 130 will suffice etc.

I'm sure you spend money on something that I never would.  I didn't set out to become a car nut, it just happened, probably inherited from my grandfather, a car nut in his own right.  Everyone's got their thing.

[Gin1984]

I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

Good!

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).

I've looked as well and if the market stays this way, I am going to buy new or ten years old, one of the two.  That seems to be the only way to find a discount worth buying used.

[mtn]

I am just glad my level of hedonic adaptation is still relatively low when it comes to what is essentially a rolling transportation appliance.  I see no value in having 180 hp if 130 will suffice etc.

I'm sure you spend money on something that I never would.  I didn't set out to become a car nut, it just happened, probably inherited from my grandfather, a car nut in his own right.  Everyone's got their thing.

This. For my fiance's family, a Corolla and a Camry are perfect. (Oh, but don't call the Camry a Camry... It is a Lexus). For me, I would die driving them every day. No joy in those cars whatsoever. I blame Grandpa and Dad. Dad blames his grandpa and dad. Grandpa blames his dad. I never had a chance.

Cars are a huge source of enjoyment for me. Sorry, a Fit is great, but it is still just an appliance.

[LalsConstant]

I am just glad my level of hedonic adaptation is still relatively low when it comes to what is essentially a rolling transportation appliance.  I see no value in having 180 hp if 130 will suffice etc.

I'm sure you spend money on something that I never would.  I didn't set out to become a car nut, it just happened, probably inherited from my grandfather, a car nut in his own right.  Everyone's got their thing.

Fair enough but stop shitting on cars that are great just because they're practical and don't cater to a higher set of expectations.

I actually don't disagree that an Acura is better than a Honda or whatever (like a Wetterlings axe is better than a Truper axe) for various purposes but the fact it's better for those purposes doesn't make the other thing "shitty".  A custom made $500 knife is better than a $10 Mora knife but no knife aficionado will call the Mora a bad product.

(Incidentally I think it's okay to just buy a new car too if you've done the research and understand what the market is like for the one you want.  Used market is very tight here locally...)

[The Accidental Mustachian]

FWIW, both of my cars have a payment of a little over $500/mo.  One cost $28k + TTL (financed at .9%, so I didn't bother putting anything down) and the other was +/- $40k,

If depreciation is similar to the uk don't forget to add another $500 to each car each month to cover that. (for the first 3 or four years at least.)

Uh, no, that's not how depreciation works.  I'm realizing depreciation at $535/mo, my car payment.  You don't add $500/mo because I can only realize $30,500 of total depreciation (plus interest).

What on earth are you talking about???? Jeez.

[LalsConstant]

I am just glad my level of hedonic adaptation is still relatively low when it comes to what is essentially a rolling transportation appliance.  I see no value in having 180 hp if 130 will suffice etc.

I'm sure you spend money on something that I never would.  I didn't set out to become a car nut, it just happened, probably inherited from my grandfather, a car nut in his own right.  Everyone's got their thing.

This. For my fiance's family, a Corolla and a Camry are perfect. (Oh, but don't call the Camry a Camry... It is a Lexus). For me, I would die driving them every day. No joy in those cars whatsoever. I blame Grandpa and Dad. Dad blames his grandpa and dad. Grandpa blames his dad. I never had a chance.

Cars are a huge source of enjoyment for me. Sorry, a Fit is great, but it is still just an appliance.

But that's the thing, they are all appliances unless you are a hobbyist who actually does street race or do something similarly demanding where you actually have to be an expert operator.  And those people tend to have unique machines where the joy and passion lies in crafting their own custom craft.  What the car starts as may be rather plain.

There are people who are auto experts, true gearheads, who take the cars you are deriding and make them do amazing things.  Even the Fit has a whole community of people who use it as a high performance platform.

[GuitarStv]

What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

[Chris22]

FWIW, both of my cars have a payment of a little over $500/mo.  One cost $28k + TTL (financed at .9%, so I didn't bother putting anything down) and the other was +/- $40k,

If depreciation is similar to the uk don't forget to add another $500 to each car each month to cover that. (for the first 3 or four years at least.)

Uh, no, that's not how depreciation works.  I'm realizing depreciation at $535/mo, my car payment.  You don't add $500/mo because I can only realize $30,500 of total depreciation (plus interest).

What on earth are you talking about???? Jeez.

I'm explaining depreciaiton to you.  I don't "add $500/mo" for depreciation cost.  If I did that, at the end, I'd have spent $30k on my car, and $30k on depreciation, for a total of $60k.  On something I paid $30k for.  That makes zero sense.  You can't lose more than you spend.

[Jack]

I am just glad my level of hedonic adaptation is still relatively low when it comes to what is essentially a rolling transportation appliance.  I see no value in having 180 hp if 130 will suffice etc.

I'm sure you spend money on something that I never would.  I didn't set out to become a car nut, it just happened, probably inherited from my grandfather, a car nut in his own right.  Everyone's got their thing.

This. For my fiance's family, a Corolla and a Camry are perfect. (Oh, but don't call the Camry a Camry... It is a Lexus). For me, I would die driving them every day. No joy in those cars whatsoever. I blame Grandpa and Dad. Dad blames his grandpa and dad. Grandpa blames his dad. I never had a chance.

Cars are a huge source of enjoyment for me. Sorry, a Fit is great, but it is still just an appliance.

Sure, but how is a new Acura RDX any less of an appliance?! It may be more expensive, but it's still boring! If you want a luxury SUV, at least pick one that's interesting, such as a G-wagon, diesel Tuareg or Land Cruiser (or better yet something like a Wrangler, but of course, that's not luxurious...).

Unless the model name starts with "N," Acuras are for self-indulgent weiners.

If there's anything worse than overpaying, it's overpaying for mediocrity.

[Chris22]

What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

[Chris22]

I am just glad my level of hedonic adaptation is still relatively low when it comes to what is essentially a rolling transportation appliance.  I see no value in having 180 hp if 130 will suffice etc.

I'm sure you spend money on something that I never would.  I didn't set out to become a car nut, it just happened, probably inherited from my grandfather, a car nut in his own right.  Everyone's got their thing.

This. For my fiance's family, a Corolla and a Camry are perfect. (Oh, but don't call the Camry a Camry... It is a Lexus). For me, I would die driving them every day. No joy in those cars whatsoever. I blame Grandpa and Dad. Dad blames his grandpa and dad. Grandpa blames his dad. I never had a chance.

Cars are a huge source of enjoyment for me. Sorry, a Fit is great, but it is still just an appliance.

Sure, but how is a new Acura RDX any less of an appliance?! It may be more expensive, but it's still boring! If you want a luxury SUV, at least pick one that's interesting, such as a G-wagon, diesel Tuareg or Land Cruiser (or better yet something like a Wrangler, but of course, that's not luxurious...).

Unless the model name starts with "N," Acuras are for self-indulgent weiners.

If there's anything worse than overpaying, it's overpaying for mediocrity.

RDX isn't mine, it's my wife's.  It is somewhat mediocre, but it's half the price of those other cars you named.  It also is one of the few smaller SUVs available with a V6, which was a prime consideraiton in its purchase (my dad drives a CR-V and that thing is wheezy and underpowered when loaded up). 

[onehair]

I thought almost all car salesmen were shysters not to be trusted under any circumstances even when the car is entirely necessary.  Also that cars are a liability though like housing a needed liability because a new one loses value the moment it is driven off the lot..

[zephyr911]

I'm square in the middle of that range. Want details? :)

Yes please.

20-mile RT commute* + 20-30 miles managing rentals and other side work 2-4 days a week. I hypermile to drive this all on one charge (no gas). Average daily charging cost ~$0.70.
Monthly ANG drill 185 miles away -> full charge (~$1) + 7-8 gallons of gas ($20-25) with free charging at the far end for local miles; average round trip 55-60mpg.
I'm also on call to the same location for natural disasters on no notice. Alabama is a desert for EVSE, and the one (1) fast DC charger en route is unreliable and often ICEd by dealer service cars; thus, the only BEV I could count on for this trip would be a Tesla.
Renting for the road trip would not only cost more and use more gas, it would potentially fail in a disaster scenario (power out, no rental cars).
The hybrid solution might have come out slightly cheaper depending on timing and models, but would use at least five times as much gas (and actually, used Volts have undercut comparable used Priuses in the last year, so doing the comparison today would favor the PHEV). I bought farther up the dep. curve when the hybrid probably would have been slightly cheaper, but personal values were enough to give it the edge. I still expect long-term TCO to win out.
Obviously it'd be nice to just cut out all this driving and simplify the criteria set, but most of it is for highly profitable side gigs that dramatically increase our SR so it's not happening yet. My ideal end state is sharing one BEV when we're done with the current professional activities, and we may trade DW's Prius for said BEV soon (currently watching prices and deliberating).

*Before the obligatory MMM bike commute facepunch occurs: most of the route is completely unsafe for biking, and moving closer would mean living in a shithole or paying 2x as much, as well as giving up walkable/bikeable groceries and numerous other QOL enhancements; the territory in between is a true suburban hell and all the commerce is where we live. There's literally no housing inside 5 miles because that's the DoD installation gate.

[Jack]

RDX isn't mine, it's my wife's.  It is somewhat mediocre, but it's half the price of those other cars you named.  It also is one of the few smaller SUVs available with a V6, which was a prime consideraiton in its purchase (my dad drives a CR-V and that thing is wheezy and underpowered when loaded up).

And a Fit (or even an Element, which at least has some unique, useful features) would be half the price again.

I'm just saying, I'd either do it all the way right, or do it all the way cheap. I see no point in half-assing it.

In fact, I'd rather have an Element than an RDX even at the same price.

[GuitarStv]

What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).