Author Topic: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks  (Read 26803 times)

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2015, 11:15:41 AM »
"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).
There I was in the year 2000, standing at Kerry Park in Seattle, at the end of my college years, dreaming of the wealth and power that lay ahead, when what should roll by but one of the first Honda S2000 cars off the line. Oh lawd, was it beautiful.
I am only slightly ashamed to say that I dreamed of having one for a solid decade before finding a good deal on a used one, and driving the shit out of it for 2+ years. Then common sense prevailed and I sold it for almost what I paid for it.
(protip: buy convertibles in the winter and sell in spring/summer)

Cycling Stache

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2015, 11:20:17 AM »
What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

Here I was about to defend Chris, and he started lashing out all over the place.

If you have never done so, driving a sports car around a track is--for many people--one of the most exciting things they get to do.  A good road course and pushing the car to its limits show you what a car is capable of and is a complete rush.

That said, the problem is that (1) driving on a track is ridiculously expensive, and (2) it is not how you drive the rest of the time.  And this is where Chris's argument starts to falter.  If you regularly track your car, there is very little joy you get from driving in normal traffic, normal neighborhoods, driving 80 on the highway, etc.

So, while sitting in the car is still cool, and a nicely put together car can be like art, don't fool yourself that any kind of non-track driving is "driving" the car in any real sense.  It's not.  You're using 10% of what the car is capable of.  And if you don't already know that but think you enjoy driving a car, get yourself to a track and enjoy real driving.

For the rest of the folks--and probably most of the forum--I think they understand that getting to be the a-hole who slams on the gas at the stop sign in a residential neighborhood to "feel the rush" (most people in Chris's Option 3) is not worth the cost of having an expensive car.

So yes, cars can be a tremendous rush, and--environmental concerns aside--people should not discount the fact that for some people, they really do bring a significant amount of joy on a regular basis to their lives.  But don't kid yourself that hauling ass through your neighborhood is justified because you're a "car" guy.  For the rest of us, we're aware of the long-term financial tradeoffs of getting that occasional rush, and most here decide it's not worth it.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2015, 11:23:30 AM »
RDX isn't mine, it's my wife's.  It is somewhat mediocre, but it's half the price of those other cars you named.  It also is one of the few smaller SUVs available with a V6, which was a prime consideraiton in its purchase (my dad drives a CR-V and that thing is wheezy and underpowered when loaded up).

And a Fit (or even an Element, which at least has some unique, useful features) would be half the price again.

I'm just saying, I'd either do it all the way right, or do it all the way cheap. I see no point in half-assing it.

In fact, I'd rather have an Element than an RDX even at the same price.

All the way right or all the way cheap?  For a suburban mall crawler family car, I'd argue that your suggestions are wild overkill.  And for a family car, an Element with it's stupid little half-doors and gutless engine is not what we wanted.  For what I DID want, a smallish 5-seat CUV with a V6 (no compromises on that) I did about the best I could. 

EricP

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2015, 11:25:58 AM »
Nice zephyr, glad to see you could make use of the Volt.  Very few people I know with Volts actually benefit from it like you do.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2015, 11:27:11 AM »
"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).

I'm not saying any level of performance is necessary for certain drivers, I'm saying I'm not willing to accept less than a certain level of performance, and I'm paying for my cars, not you, so you can kindly fuck off with your advice and nickel-tour psychoanalysis.  For the record, my love of sports cars stems from a childhood of riding around in the back of one (friend's parents had one) and it comes from the same primal part of my brain that also like blondes, boobs, drinking too much, and pizza. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2015, 11:34:14 AM »
For the record, my love of sports cars [edited for brevity] comes from the same primal part of my brain that also like blondes, boobs, drinking too much, and pizza.

Sums up my argument nicely.  This forum isn't really about empowering people to make gut level brain-stem driven stupid decisions.  Kinda the opposite.

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2015, 11:37:47 AM »
Nice zephyr, glad to see you could make use of the Volt.  Very few people I know with Volts actually benefit from it like you do.
That's really too bad. It has great potential as a transitional car, but I gather that many are a) bought with unrealistic expectations/poor understanding of capabilities and ideal use, and/or b) not used as intended (e.g. purchased as fleet car and never charged because accounting can figure out gas reimbursements but not charging incentives).
I personally love it, and most of the drivers I know or have met are equally happy.

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2015, 11:40:28 AM »
For the record, my love of sports cars [edited for brevity] comes from the same primal part of my brain that also like blondes, boobs, drinking too much, and pizza.

Sums up my argument nicely.  This forum isn't really about empowering people to make gut level brain-stem driven stupid decisions.  Kinda the opposite.
Hehehe... good point

beltim

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2015, 11:41:24 AM »
I have an older sports car (AP1 S2000).  It's actually gone UP in value since I bought it.

Good!

There IS an excuse, or reason, for buying a new car.  The other cars I own (both Acuras) do not depreciate significantly.  When I bought my car, I looked at newish (used) ones, and you had to get one with more than 30k miles in order to save more than about a grand.

I don't believe that. Either you're just flat-out mistaken, or there was some temporary market distortion going on at the time you checked (e.g. it was during cash for clunkers, or the model had just come out and was in short supply, or something like that).
I've looked as well and if the market stays this way, I am going to buy new or ten years old, one of the two.  That seems to be the only way to find a discount worth buying used.

This is exactly the conclusion I've reached over the last decade, in three different states.  Although I would edit Gin's comment to say 10 or more years old.  Jack, I think you need to reexamine the math on used cars.

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2015, 11:50:49 AM »
Seriously? My experience has definitely been different. Two of my last three cars were 1-2 years old for about 40% off the new price. At that point you're still getting the vast majority of the powertrain warranty, probably several years before a major repair, etc.
The 2010 Prius bought in the spring of 2013 wasn't as steep a discount - only 15-20% off new. I'd still call it a fair discount, though I probably should have shopped around more.

vivophoenix

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2015, 11:54:58 AM »
Seriously? My experience has definitely been different. Two of my last three cars were 1-2 years old for about 40% off the new price. At that point you're still getting the vast majority of the powertrain warranty, probably several years before a major repair, etc.
The 2010 Prius bought in the spring of 2013 wasn't as steep a discount - only 15-20% off new. I'd still call it a fair discount, though I probably should have shopped around more.

my used 2012 prius C was a 20% discount from that years current model and that was from the dealer CPO.  private seller would have been more of a discount but i was more ignorant then.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2015, 12:10:53 PM »
Seriously? My experience has definitely been different. Two of my last three cars were 1-2 years old for about 40% off the new price. At that point you're still getting the vast majority of the powertrain warranty, probably several years before a major repair, etc.

It's like anything else.  If you buy what other people DON'T want to buy, then yes, you can get a deal.  American cars in general traditionally have pretty high depreciation, though you usually can buy American cars at a pretty steep discount new, so a depreciation: MSRP calc may not make sense. 
BUT, if you buy something on the most popular list (Accord, Camry, CR-V, Civic, Corolla, etc) those are very much in demand, and a nearly new one costs the same as an actually new one. 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2015, 12:12:23 PM »
Cars are about the dumbest purchase ever.  Why waste any more money on something I'm in for maybe 45 minutes a day? 

EricP

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2015, 12:29:48 PM »
I'm starting to move to the "Used Cars are overrated" camp.  Everyone says that you are throwing away so much money by buying new and that 2-4 year old cars are going to be so much cheaper, but the few times I've bought cars and a few cars.com and craiglist searches always confirm my suspicions.

Looking at 2013 Honda Fits in my area and the cheapest one is $13299 with 26k miles.  MSRP is $15650, so that's 85% of the cost, but if you assume that you can get 150k miles before you need expensive repairs, then it only has 83% of it's life left.  I think the environment has changed from X years ago as everyone knows the buy used mantra and so there is no longer a glut of 3 year old cars.

tvan

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2015, 12:32:34 PM »
I'm car shopping/researching now and would agree that depreciation is not much on these newer cars. 


Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2015, 12:34:45 PM »
So yes, cars can be a tremendous rush, and--environmental concerns aside--people should not discount the fact that for some people, they really do bring a significant amount of joy on a regular basis to their lives.  But don't kid yourself that hauling ass through your neighborhood is justified because you're a "car" guy.  For the rest of us, we're aware of the long-term financial tradeoffs of getting that occasional rush, and most here decide it's not worth it.

When I want to push my car to its limits (and its limits aren't THAT high), I either A) drive out to the middle of nowhere (rural WI) or B) just go balls out on some highway onramps and such.  There are lots of roads that aren't neighborhood roads.  And my car is a convertible, driving anywhere with the top down is just plain more fun.  I've driven on the track, and it's awesome fun, but the scope creep required to do so regularly (need a trailer to haul car + race tires + truck to pull trailer + track fees + track insurance; you can do it cheaper but it's a PITA) is not something I'm prepared for. 

tvan

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2015, 12:39:33 PM »
I'm starting to move to the "Used Cars are overrated" camp.  Everyone says that you are throwing away so much money by buying new and that 2-4 year old cars are going to be so much cheaper, but the few times I've bought cars and a few cars.com and craiglist searches always confirm my suspicions.

Looking at 2013 Honda Fits in my area and the cheapest one is $13299 with 26k miles.  MSRP is $15650, so that's 85% of the cost, but if you assume that you can get 150k miles before you need expensive repairs, then it only has 83% of it's life left.  I think the environment has changed from X years ago as everyone knows the buy used mantra and so there is no longer a glut of 3 year old cars.

Stop thinking with an open mind and actually using numbers to make a decision.  When it comes to cars here anything nicer than a honda fit with 200k miles on it just doesn't make sense!

Kitsune

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2015, 12:45:37 PM »
Re: used car prices: I bought a (new) honda fit in 2011 - my first car, after 8 years of city living that I spent on a bike or a subway. I wanted to find one a year or two old, maybe save some money, etc (I wasn't a MMM reader, but I was in the right mindset!) At the time, I got my new fit for 1.5K more than cars that were two years old with 30K miles. I thought that 1.5K savings vs two years of car use probably wouldn't even out. As it turns out, our "new" fit now has 30K miles on it, but it took almost 4 years!

Re: the fit being a "shitty" car: I really have to object. I love it. It fits everything I need it to, parks easily, is good on gas, is reasonably comfortable to drive, gets us where we need to go, doesn't cost a crazy amount... PERFECT.

To be fair (and let's try to be fair): there are places where we all drop extra money for things that increase our quality of life, right? MMM travels, and a lot of people are willing to work longer to be able to afford to travel once they're retired. Hell, most of us could say 'I'm going to go live in a hovel, never buy anything ever again, and live on rice and beans' and retire this year, but we chose not to because the point isn't to live in poverty and misery, the point is to identify the sweet spot of how much awesome living you can get for how little money. We just each have to find what we value, to ensure that our money goes towards things that bring us rewards rather than being pissed away for things we don't care about.

Personally: my car is a depreciating asset and a tool to get me from point a to point b. I'm not a car person. However, I AM a food person. Fixings for a 5-course dinner including a roast duck because "it's saturday and I feel like it" is absolutely something I'll spend on. So... it depends on your personal priority. If you're going into it saying "this will make me work X number of weeks/years longer to sustain this lifestyle" and you're ok with that bargain, then why not, y'know. You just can't be blindly wandering into it and spending money on things that don't matter and trading away years of your life and time for things you don't care about.

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2015, 12:58:42 PM »
I'm starting to move to the "Used Cars are overrated" camp.  Everyone says that you are throwing away so much money by buying new and that 2-4 year old cars are going to be so much cheaper, but the few times I've bought cars and a few cars.com and craiglist searches always confirm my suspicions.

Looking at 2013 Honda Fits in my area and the cheapest one is $13299 with 26k miles.  MSRP is $15650, so that's 85% of the cost, but if you assume that you can get 150k miles before you need expensive repairs, then it only has 83% of it's life left.  I think the environment has changed from X years ago as everyone knows the buy used mantra and so there is no longer a glut of 3 year old cars.
As noted above, it all depends on demand, which can vary with location, model, and timing. Have you looked in other towns or considered similar models?

Jack

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2015, 01:26:22 PM »
Jack, I think you need to reexamine the math on used cars.

Okay, I admit that it's possible I'm out of touch on [newish] used car prices. I bought a used car (a Miata) a few months ago, but it's 25 years old (and has pretty much ceased depreciating).

So yes, cars can be a tremendous rush, and--environmental concerns aside--people should not discount the fact that for some people, they really do bring a significant amount of joy on a regular basis to their lives.  But don't kid yourself that hauling ass through your neighborhood is justified because you're a "car" guy.  For the rest of us, we're aware of the long-term financial tradeoffs of getting that occasional rush, and most here decide it's not worth it.

When I want to push my car to its limits (and its limits aren't THAT high), I either A) drive out to the middle of nowhere (rural WI) or B) just go balls out on some highway onramps and such.  There are lots of roads that aren't neighborhood roads.  And my car is a convertible, driving anywhere with the top down is just plain more fun.  I've driven on the track, and it's awesome fun, but the scope creep required to do so regularly (need a trailer to haul car + race tires + truck to pull trailer + track fees + track insurance; you can do it cheaper but it's a PITA) is not something I'm prepared for.

1. I can confirm that convertibles really are just plain more fun.

2. My Miata was owned by another autocrosser before me; it came with a hitch and utility trailer. Drive to the track on street tires, then swap 'em when you get there -- much less costly than towing the whole car.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2015, 01:39:39 PM »
Jack, I think you need to reexamine the math on used cars.

Okay, I admit that it's possible I'm out of touch on [newish] used car prices. I bought a used car (a Miata) a few months ago, but it's 25 years old (and has pretty much ceased depreciating).

So yes, cars can be a tremendous rush, and--environmental concerns aside--people should not discount the fact that for some people, they really do bring a significant amount of joy on a regular basis to their lives.  But don't kid yourself that hauling ass through your neighborhood is justified because you're a "car" guy.  For the rest of us, we're aware of the long-term financial tradeoffs of getting that occasional rush, and most here decide it's not worth it.

When I want to push my car to its limits (and its limits aren't THAT high), I either A) drive out to the middle of nowhere (rural WI) or B) just go balls out on some highway onramps and such.  There are lots of roads that aren't neighborhood roads.  And my car is a convertible, driving anywhere with the top down is just plain more fun.  I've driven on the track, and it's awesome fun, but the scope creep required to do so regularly (need a trailer to haul car + race tires + truck to pull trailer + track fees + track insurance; you can do it cheaper but it's a PITA) is not something I'm prepared for.

1. I can confirm that convertibles really are just plain more fun.

2. My Miata was owned by another autocrosser before me; it came with a hitch and utility trailer. Drive to the track on street tires, then swap 'em when you get there -- much less costly than towing the whole car.

Yeah, it can be done.  I've always strongly believed in the maxim "don't drive anything on the track you can't afford to ball up and walk away from."  I'm not comfortable with that, as my car is somewhat rare and I don't want to write a check for $15k+ to replace it.  So I keep it off the track for the most part.

Gin1984

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2015, 05:04:23 PM »
I'm starting to move to the "Used Cars are overrated" camp.  Everyone says that you are throwing away so much money by buying new and that 2-4 year old cars are going to be so much cheaper, but the few times I've bought cars and a few cars.com and craiglist searches always confirm my suspicions.

Looking at 2013 Honda Fits in my area and the cheapest one is $13299 with 26k miles.  MSRP is $15650, so that's 85% of the cost, but if you assume that you can get 150k miles before you need expensive repairs, then it only has 83% of it's life left.  I think the environment has changed from X years ago as everyone knows the buy used mantra and so there is no longer a glut of 3 year old cars.
As noted above, it all depends on demand, which can vary with location, model, and timing. Have you looked in other towns or considered similar models?
I have look on both coasts, WNY and the Bay Area plus Palm Springs area with a variety of models.  So far, I have found it consistent.  I ended up buying my aunts 2001 truck and that should last me quite a few years and it might change from them but for now, it is what I can concluded.

radram

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2015, 09:36:33 PM »
I am in the camp that a car is to get from point A to point B. The cheaper the better as long as it suits my needs. I have purchased 4 cars from a dealer(never again) and 2 of them were new cars(never again).


I try to keep purchase price plus repair costs under $1000 per year of driving per vehicle.  I do most maintenance myself.  Every $1000 in repairs and maintenance costs I would mentally add to the purchase price.  Gas mileage is a separate issue to me but it does factor in to deciding on a car to purchase.

Both of my new cars failed this financial test, and they were the only vehicles I have ever bought that failed it out of about 12 vehicles in my life.

If I was to spend $25000 for a car, I would need to get 25 years out of it if there were no repairs.  That sounds near impossible to me.


I usually look for cars in the 5-8 year old range with few miles, and look for a price point that stands a good chance of costing below my threshold.  My last 2 purchases were a 4 year old Aveo with 32000 miles for $7000 and a 10 year old Ranger with 60000 miles for $4000.


It is more likely that the Ranger will give me 4 years of driving than the Aveo will give me 7 years, but it does cost more to drive, and the entire family does not fit in the ranger.

I take a long time when shopping, often looking for weeks before finding what I am looking for and looking at EVERY ad I can find.

Using my numbers, $90 a month would be a reasonable monthly car payment, but I have never had one.


MMMdude

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2015, 09:57:00 PM »
Was talking to an acquaintance the other day and he was proud to tell me he bought his car used and his car payment was "only $600 per month".  You see, this is much better than the $900 the guy he bought it from was paying.  LOL

Anyways this car has adaptive cruise control so literally brakes for you......Mr Money's post about us all eventually preferring catheters to getting up and taking a piss immediately came to mind.  He also bragged about routinely doing 140mph on the freeway. 

Jack

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2015, 07:25:06 AM »
Anyways this car has adaptive cruise control so literally brakes for you.... He also bragged about routinely doing 140mph on the freeway.

I have to admit, I would love adaptive cruise control. In fact, I've seriously considered trying to design a system myself, to retrofit to my old cars. The main use-case would be to safely draft when hypermiling (and maybe automatic pulse-and-glide).

I'd also love it if speed limits were abolished so I could drive 140mph legally, although I do admit that it's weird to say such a thing right after talking about hypermiling! (In fairness, drafting somebody at 140 would save a lot of fuel...)

FrugalKube

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2015, 09:12:42 AM »
Interesting thread. I keep wondering if I should dump my 08 Focus one of these days and get something I really want. A used CR-V, some sort of Scio, or a Fusion seems practical but the non-MMM part of my brain is "yelling get a Subaru WRX!"

Subaru's do hold their value but paying $25k-$35k car is hard to swallow for me. Anything below $25k seems to have a ton of miles on it

BDA_Moose

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2015, 01:55:24 PM »
What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).

I sure hope you're playing one of those $100 Squiers you can get off of Amazon, and only through a shitty 80's Peavy practice amp - after all, just an appliance and anything more than the bare minimum is horseshit according to your logic

GuitarStv

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2015, 07:10:29 AM »
What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).

I sure hope you're playing one of those $100 Squiers you can get off of Amazon, and only through a shitty 80's Peavy practice amp - after all, just an appliance and anything more than the bare minimum is horseshit according to your logic

I think it's a valid philosophy to apply to just about anything.

My main guitar is a Charvel So Cal that I got used five years ago for 600$, and my backup is my first electric, an Epiphone Dot that my dad bought me when I started going to university.  Both play well, and sound great.  When you get into multi-thousand dollar guitars you're paying more for a finish, or particular brand name than you are for playability and sound.

The analogy kinda breaks down because while people pay to hear my guitar (so something really awful sounding or playing is a non-starter), they don't give a shit how I happen to get to the gig.  Unless you're being paid to commute rather than work, spending a ton of money on a high horsepower racing car is pretty silly.

JR

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2015, 08:15:39 AM »
Quote from: Chris22 link=topic=39696.msg715413#msg715413

Not very MMM-friendly, but I don't work hard so I can drive a shitty Fit every day.  Sorry.

Ah, the old "I work hard so I deserve X" argument. At least you can afford a little bit of that attitude with a $170k/yr household income.

Btw, Fits are actually pretty nice cars. I drive the Mazda equivalent, a Mazda2.

No, I don't *deserve* anything, but I *want* something.  Both the Fit and the Mazda 2 have about 100-120hp, which is unacceptably slow to me.  HHI is actually closer to about $200k, give or take, not including rental income.

Where do you live that two cars that can travel in excess of 100 mph are "unacceptably slow"? My wife's 07 Fit has no problem getting to 65 mph (the max speed limit in my area) by the end of our short Pennsylvania on ramps.

Sibley

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2015, 12:03:10 PM »
Just to make the car guys cringe.

I've had 3 cars. Car, Stupid car, and Car. (07 Pontiac Vibe, 13 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI, and 14 Ford Focus hatchback)

As long as the car is a pretty color, gets decent enough gas mileage, works reliably and doesn't piss me off in some way (Stupid Car failed the 3rd and 4th tests), I'm happy.

Though I want my Vibe back - it got crunched 6 months after I paid if off. :(

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2015, 12:06:17 PM »
Just to make the car guys cringe.

I've had 3 cars. Car, Stupid car, and Car. (07 Pontiac Vibe, 13 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI, and 14 Ford Focus hatchback)

As long as the car is a pretty color, gets decent enough gas mileage, works reliably and doesn't piss me off in some way (Stupid Car failed the 3rd and 4th tests), I'm happy.

Though I want my Vibe back - it got crunched 6 months after I paid if off. :(

Nothing wrong with that. I like the Vibtrix, want to like the Wagen (but VW's scare me), and like the new Foci.

TheAnonOne

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2015, 12:29:46 PM »
What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.


There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).


I get that this forum is super-'anti' any car that isn't a 'insert-honda-fit-or-the-like-here' but if the man wants a faster car let him have it.

We don't have to be mean about it. I own a newer Mustang and a newer sport bike and a smaller commuter car AND still save 50-70 percent of my income monthly (depending on certain bills/ month of year) AND I bought them new (no loans though)

Yes, we have a higher income but to some degree that allows me (and folks in similar situations) to splurge a bit and have the effective 'Time to FI' hit be measured in weeks or months, instead of years or decades.


Not everyone's goals, income, situations, and/or preferences are the same. Not everyone even implements the whole 'MMM' clan-think the same way. I have taken a lot from this forum in the ways of investing and optimization of housing choices but I (and MANY on these forums) find some really enjoyment out of faster cars as they can provide really fun experences. This might be difficult for some people here to understand.

Winston

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2015, 02:38:52 PM »
The best thing we MMMers can do for our sanity is figure out which MMM philosophies we can modify (or reject completely) and still achieve our financial goals in a way that makes us happy. I found that driving an inexpensive, efficient, reliable appliance car daily while keeping an inexpensive sports car/engineering project as my garage hobby is my happy point.

Also, some people just love cars (and machines in general), and oftentimes it has nothing to do with showing off or ego massage or anything like that. Some of the 20 year-old shitbox sports cars of yesteryear that I've driven are a testament to that. If the words "mechanical empathy" make sense to you, you probably understand. If not, then you probably don't and never will.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 06:15:07 PM by Winston »

GuitarStv

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2015, 04:57:49 PM »
Nobody's going to take away your right to buy fast cars.  Knock yourself out.

But you can't take away my right to make fun of Chris22, who has in his first post denigrated perfectly serviceable vehicles to make himself feel better about the multiple extravagant cars he has admitted to making monthly payments on.

forummm

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2015, 05:54:43 PM »
Nice zephyr, glad to see you could make use of the Volt.  Very few people I know with Volts actually benefit from it like you do.
That's really too bad. It has great potential as a transitional car, but I gather that many are a) bought with unrealistic expectations/poor understanding of capabilities and ideal use, and/or b) not used as intended (e.g. purchased as fleet car and never charged because accounting can figure out gas reimbursements but not charging incentives).
I personally love it, and most of the drivers I know or have met are equally happy.

I love my Leafs. You can get an absolute steal on a 2 or 3 year old one due to all the tax credits. And then you don't pay for oil changes or gas. The total change to our electric bill after getting both was $10/mo.

Winston

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2015, 06:24:35 PM »
Nobody's going to take away your right to buy fast cars.  Knock yourself out.

But you can't take away my right to make fun of Chris22, who has in his first post denigrated perfectly serviceable vehicles to make himself feel better about the multiple extravagant cars he has admitted to making monthly payments on.

Psst! I agree with you! Look at my comments to Chris22 defending the Fit/Mazda2. There is a way to have your cake and eat it too, if you're both a "car guy/gal" (or a ______ guy/gal) and an MMMer. That's what I'm trying to point out, to both him and to the folks that are hurling face punches at those of us who are into cars.

P.S. I don't buy fast cars anymore. Where's the sense of accomplishment in that? I buy slow/broken ones and make them fast ;)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 06:29:40 PM by Winston »

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2015, 08:42:57 PM »

I love my Leafs. You can get an absolute steal on a 2 or 3 year old one due to all the tax credits. And then you don't pay for oil changes or gas. The total change to our electric bill after getting both was $10/mo.
I've been getting weekly alerts on regional used prices for a couple of years now. I'm interested... if only there was a little more EVSE here. Right now a Leaf can basically go one direction out of our town.

Jack

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2015, 09:15:51 PM »
Look at my comments to Chris22 defending the Fit/Mazda2. There is a way to have your cake and eat it too, if you're both a "car guy/gal" (or a ______ guy/gal) and an MMMer.

One word, just one word: Miata.

(And honestly, Chris22's Honda S2000 is a pretty damn good choice too. It's really just the Acura RDX that's facepunch-worthy.)

Winston

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #88 on: July 07, 2015, 05:58:28 AM »
Look at my comments to Chris22 defending the Fit/Mazda2. There is a way to have your cake and eat it too, if you're both a "car guy/gal" (or a ______ guy/gal) and an MMMer.

One word, just one word: Miata.

(And honestly, Chris22's Honda S2000 is a pretty damn good choice too. It's really just the Acura RDX that's facepunch-worthy.)

My sentiments exactly.

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #89 on: July 07, 2015, 09:44:57 AM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy? Sure, there is something cheaper that does the job just as well or better, but he doesn't like that. He can afford the RDX without inhibitting any financial goals, because he has determined what is and isn't important to him and cut in areas that aren't so that he can have the things he does want. Isn't that more or less the exact definition of Mustachianism?

Also, anyone want to buy a Miata?

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2015, 09:55:17 AM »
Well, it's an SUV, which automatically must mean it's terrible in every way, and it's a "luxury/premium" (sorta, not really) nameplate, so again, must be paying a fortune for all that extra fanciness.

In reality, there aren't very many perfect substitutes when you factor in the V6 which is non-negotiable for me.  I coulda saved a little money buying Korean (Hyundai/Kia) but even then, not a lot, maybe a couple grand, which isn't worth it on this scale IMO.  And I coulda bought used, but I've done used cars plenty before and am not really interested in doing it again on what is our primary family car. 


I had a comment deleted on MMM's latest blog post where he basically made up numbers to support his "sell the SUV" initiative, and he didn't like that I called him out on his made up BS and so he deleted it.  Quite frankly, I'm tired of the pseudo-science that is used to pushed the environmentalist agenda.  Either call it what it is, or stop making shit up.  Or you should have been at my house packing my car Thursday night for a long weekend away and explained to me how we could have gotten it all in some Honda Fit.  (Hint: it would not have).

Jack

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2015, 10:21:32 AM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

Forcus

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2015, 10:39:36 AM »
Not sure what the big to-do is about. The guy seems to have his life together and has a fairly minor amount of debt respective to income. So what, to each his own. I don't get people who lift and modify golf carts but I don't stand on the sidewalk and taunt them either. I don't see why parents automatically believe they have to bankroll their childrens' college (and delay their retirement) but I'm certainly not going to tell someone they are a moron by doing so.

MMM is like a buffet. Learn, take what works for you, make it happen.


ncornilsen

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2015, 10:42:43 AM »
One reason to insist on the v6 version is that a v6 may have the towing capacity to eliminate any need for a v8 powered pickup truck.

Just sayin.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2015, 10:43:10 AM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

It's our family car, the one we take when we all go out.  I've driven my dad's CR-Vs extensively, and when you load them with a few people and their stuff it's dog slow.  No thanks.  I drove 6 hours yesterday on a crowded interstate, and the ability to gun it and get out of the way or pass a truck or whatever is important to me.  And, oh, by the way...it's my money!  So I'll buy what I want!

And part of the reason about buying used is yes, I don't want to take a chance on reliability, I don't want to buy something closer to the end of its lifecycle and end up replacing it more often, or driving something with very high miles as we have family in a remote place and I don't have any interest in dealing with not trusting the vehicle implicitly.  I don't like not knowing how it's been taken care of.  I don't like trying to decide how much wear I can tolerate on something I am laying out $$$ for.  I don't like trying to track down issues or planning for downtime.  I like that I can show up to my dealer, throw them the keys, say "fix it and I'll bring back this loaner when you do."  I realize I pay for that priviledge, but I don't care, especially since this is primarily my wife's car and less stress for her is infinitely less stress for me.  This car was also purchased as a result of her being in a severe accident with a deer, so she was not interested at all in another smaller car.  Call that what you will, but YOU try to convince her otherwise, I'll be over there.

MMM-ism seems to be to find the absolute minimum you can scrape by with, and deal with that.  That's not how I roll and not how I live.  My way is to buy exactly what I want, which is generally high quality, pay for it, and then keep it a long, long time, knowing it will last because I'm going to take care of it.  It's a little more expensive than the MMM way, but it works for me.  If I'm honest, most people in my peer group are deciding which BMW they can lease for the next three years, so quite frankly, I'm pretty far ahead of THAT group on money management, and so I don't feel bad about not trying to cram my family into a Fit for the next 120 months. 

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2015, 10:59:01 AM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

I really think you're missing the point of mustachianism.

But I really don't care. Carry on with the facepunching, I'll just be sure to stay out of your way since my guitars, car (a Miata!), dog (purely an emotional decision), bicycles, stereo, and choice in beer are all extremely unmustachian. Heck, even most of my choice in clothes (which are today 100% Kirkland brand other than my shoes) are unmustachian by your point of view.

EricP

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #96 on: July 07, 2015, 11:11:42 AM »
I'm starting to move to the "Used Cars are overrated" camp.  Everyone says that you are throwing away so much money by buying new and that 2-4 year old cars are going to be so much cheaper, but the few times I've bought cars and a few cars.com and craiglist searches always confirm my suspicions.

Looking at 2013 Honda Fits in my area and the cheapest one is $13299 with 26k miles.  MSRP is $15650, so that's 85% of the cost, but if you assume that you can get 150k miles before you need expensive repairs, then it only has 83% of it's life left.  I think the environment has changed from X years ago as everyone knows the buy used mantra and so there is no longer a glut of 3 year old cars.
As noted above, it all depends on demand, which can vary with location, model, and timing. Have you looked in other towns or considered similar models?

I just chose the Honda Fit because it's getting thrown around as the "go-to" car that one should buy used.  I've done this quite a few times for other forums/discussions, when I made my only car purchase ever (2011 Dodge Challenger, back in 2011, go ahead and "facepunch" me or whatever) and when my brother purchased his car as well.

It always turns out the same: minimal savings from buying a used car.  Now, buying a falling apart 2001 car with 250k miles on it would probably get you some savings, but the risk of it going into the repair shop and needing to deal with all of that is not worth the savings to me.  If you are biking to work, then this risk is not as big of a deal, but that's not an option for me (even if I moved).

Someone mentioned that Leafs are a steal used.  That may be the case because I see on Leaf and EV Forums, tons of people bragging about how cheap their lease is or recommending leasing the Leaf, but I'm putting my money on the fact that the sticker price is so muddied with rebates and such, that it's not actually significant savings.  Sure, you're getting it for $13k less than MSRP, but you're missing out on the Federal Tax Credit, your States tax credit, and some local tax benefit from installing a charger (for example) so in the end it isn't a steal, just the actual cost after all these other factors are taken into account.


Edit: Lastly, I'd love some cost comparisons from the other side of the camp, but all I've seen are some anecdotes about your experience without any ability for me to fact check it.  (Yes, I realize that my example is also anecdotal, but it's verifiable).  I, honestly, think the buy used is old outdated advice and that in 2015 with as many Dave Ramsey followers and the ability to accurately gauge the value of cars using the internet, that it will always be a wash as enough people are doing their homework when purchasing cars to ensure the market is efficient.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 11:15:50 AM by EricP »

GuitarStv

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #97 on: July 07, 2015, 11:13:04 AM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

I really think you're missing the point of mustachianism.

But I really don't care. Carry on with the facepunching, I'll just be sure to stay out of your way since my guitars, car (a Miata!), dog (purely an emotional decision), bicycles, stereo, and choice in beer are all extremely unmustachian. Heck, even most of my choice in clothes (which are today 100% Kirkland brand other than my shoes) are unmustachian by your point of view.

My understanding of the point of mustachianism was to enjoy life more while consuming less (with the side benefit that it's generally better for the environment to do this).  What's your take on it?

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #98 on: July 07, 2015, 11:29:02 AM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

I really think you're missing the point of mustachianism.

But I really don't care. Carry on with the facepunching, I'll just be sure to stay out of your way since my guitars, car (a Miata!), dog (purely an emotional decision), bicycles, stereo, and choice in beer are all extremely unmustachian. Heck, even most of my choice in clothes (which are today 100% Kirkland brand other than my shoes) are unmustachian by your point of view.

My understanding of the point of mustachianism was to enjoy life more while consuming less (with the side benefit that it's generally better for the environment to do this).  What's your take on it?

Exactly the same as yours. But I think you're missing the point looking at this situation.

You have a $600 Charvel, and not a Les Paul. You get it, you don't need the Les Paul. But I can guarantee you you can find a better sounding guitar for $300. I know, because I have done it with a used MIJ Strat. Sounds as good as my brothers $900 American Tele (but isn't as pretty); sounds way better than my dads 54' Les Paul (but without nearly the history), sounds nearly as good as our Guild Nightbird. Probably sounds better than your Charvel, but even if it doesn't, something out there does for that price--might have to look harder for it though (what is your time worth?)

You have a backup--why something as good as an Epiphone dot? Why not a used Ibanez, or a squire and install some TV Jones pickups for about $300 total? Does your main rig really break down that much? No, it probably doesn't, but you have spent the minimum to maximize your enjoyment. That is exactly what he has done. He took a constructive look at it, weighed the costs, and he gets $10,000 worth of enjoyment over a CRV--it is faster, nicer inside, better resale, and he values all of that accordingly. That is for him to decide and not you. I'm also guessing he doesn't get rid of it every 3 years.

He is consuming less. He isn't in a Land Cruiser, he is in an RDX. He took a look at what is important to him, and got by with what he needs for it. Where does it stop? I have a Miata. I could get by in a Smart car, no problem. I could also get by on a motorbike, but I'm giving up too much luxury and safety. So does that make me unmustachian? I'm certainly consuming more than I need to, but I'm consuming close to as little as I need to to maximize my enjoyment in life.

Also, as a complete tangent, I really like the Epi Dots. Been thinking about picking one up in light blue. If I sell my strat I might do it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 11:31:16 AM by mtn »

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #99 on: July 07, 2015, 11:56:10 AM »
I took another tack and went all electric.  Our town allows golf carts on certain roads (under 35 mph speed limit).  So we bought a used/refurbished electric golf cart ($2400) fitted out to meet the requirements for driving on the road.  Almost every place we go is within the 8 mile range of the golf cart.  There are some months during the summer that we don't even know the cost of gasoline because we don't buy any.  Here is a link to our ordinances, if you want to pursue this in your town.
http://cityofrockport.com/DocumentCenter/View/11570
I will admit that we've had to replace the batteries once in 4 years (last month) and that is a major expense.  Rain is another problem because the sides are open on ours.