Author Topic: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks  (Read 25020 times)

Jack

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #100 on: July 07, 2015, 12:41:03 PM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

I really think you're missing the point of mustachianism.

Carry on with the facepunching, I'll just be sure to stay out of your way since my... car (a Miata!) [is] extremely unmustachian.

My Miata cost $3600 (including a hitch and utility trailer), has 84,000 miles on the odometer, and is in very good condition. It's even exempt from emissions testing and has extraordinarily low taxes and insurance. That's how you do "mustachian!"

The point is, Mustachianism isn't about not depriving yourself of what you want, it's about getting what you want in a way that's a whole lot smarter and less expensive than how the average person goes about it. I have no problem with the idea that Chris wanted comfortable and reliable transportation for his family (or even explicitly a big, fast, reliable SUV); I just reject the notion that it was necessary to buy a brand new RDX to accomplish that goal.

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #101 on: July 07, 2015, 01:05:28 PM »
I just chose the Honda Fit because it's getting thrown around as the "go-to" car that one should buy used.  I've done this quite a few times for other forums/discussions, when I made my only car purchase ever (2011 Dodge Challenger, back in 2011, go ahead and "facepunch" me or whatever) and when my brother purchased his car as well.
It's a decent choice from what I hear, I was just curious if you'd looked across the class. I'm not really into facepunching... if what you're doing works for you, I'm all for it.
Quote
It always turns out the same: minimal savings from buying a used car. 
I only asked the question because I found major savings (~40%) more than once on a car that was only 1-2 years old in very good condition. It's interesting to compare experiences and figure out how things vary with location and model.
Quote
Someone mentioned that Leafs are a steal used.  That may be the case because I see on Leaf and EV Forums, tons of people bragging about how cheap their lease is or recommending leasing the Leaf, but I'm putting my money on the fact that the sticker price is so muddied with rebates and such, that it's not actually significant savings.  Sure, you're getting it for $13k less than MSRP, but you're missing out on the Federal Tax Credit, your States tax credit, and some local tax benefit from installing a charger (for example) so in the end it isn't a steal, just the actual cost after all these other factors are taken into account.
Even *after* all that, they are a steal. I'm talking the delta between what a new buyer actually pays (after all incentives) and what you can pay for a slightly used one still in warranty. I've been watching regional prices for two years and I can confirm it with confidence. If I didn't have a monthly business trip through EVSE-poor territory at 3x the Leaf's range each way, I'd absolutely have one myself.
I see plenty of them for $10-15k, and you can hammer it for $.02 per mile at average US electric rates. Even a Prius will run 2-3x that on regular gas. If  you drive 1,000 miles a month (probably higher than MMM average, lower than US average) the gas savings alone offset ~$10K in financing (or return 15-20% on a cash buy).
The higher-than-average depreciation is due to fears about battery degradation, but if it loses more than 20%, you get a new one for free.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 01:11:58 PM by zephyr911 »

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #102 on: July 07, 2015, 01:10:12 PM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

I really think you're missing the point of mustachianism.

Carry on with the facepunching, I'll just be sure to stay out of your way since my... car (a Miata!) [is] extremely unmustachian.

My Miata cost $3600 (including a hitch and utility trailer), has 84,000 miles on the odometer, and is in very good condition. It's even exempt from emissions testing and has extraordinarily low taxes and insurance. That's how you do "mustachian!"

The point is, Mustachianism isn't about not depriving yourself of what you want, it's about getting what you want in a way that's a whole lot smarter and less expensive than how the average person goes about it. I have no problem with the idea that Chris wanted comfortable and reliable transportation for his family (or even explicitly a big, fast, reliable SUV); I just reject the notion that it was necessary to buy a brand new RDX to accomplish that goal.

Actually, assuming you "allow" me this particular car, they only started making them in the current configuration for model year 2013.  Prior to that it was a smaller SUV with a thirstier engine (4cyl turbo).  We've already established that when buying Japanese cars, slightly used doesn't save you much money over new.  And that's the case here.  Do I want a slightly used RDX with 30k miles for $35k, or a new one with 0 miles for $38k?  Not a tough call for me. 

Anyways, like I said, the "buy new and hold long term" strategy may not be the absolute cheapest way to go, but it works much better for us than either buy used and flip often, or buy used and repair as necessary.  And infinitely better than buy new and flip often, or lease. 

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2015, 01:10:21 PM »
Why do you guys think that the RDX is facepunch worthy?

I explained upthread, but I'll give two more reasons:

  • The V6 engine is "non-negotiable" for Chris, but it isn't even his car! It's his wife's car! What does he care what engine it has, when he's not even the one driving it? And if it were "just" the engine, it wouldn't be a big deal, but apparently "needing" the V6 forced him to buy an entirely different model of car than one that would have otherwise been acceptable. Chris paid at least 50% more than he needed to ($35K RDX vs. $23K CR-V... this isn't even considering a Fit!), just because he inexplicably wanted a V6 engine for somebody else to drive.
  • He's "not really interested" in buying used, which is not a valid reason. Not wanting a used car because they're unreliable would be a good reason... if it were true, which it isn't. So it really comes down to wanting a new car for emotional reasons, which is unmustachian.

I really think you're missing the point of mustachianism.

Carry on with the facepunching, I'll just be sure to stay out of your way since my... car (a Miata!) [is] extremely unmustachian.

My Miata cost $3600 (including a hitch and utility trailer), has 84,000 miles on the odometer, and is in very good condition. It's even exempt from emissions testing and has extraordinarily low taxes and insurance. That's how you do "mustachian!"

The point is, Mustachianism isn't about not depriving yourself of what you want, it's about getting what you want in a way that's a whole lot smarter and less expensive than how the average person goes about it. I have no problem with the idea that Chris wanted comfortable and reliable transportation for his family (or even explicitly a big, fast, reliable SUV); I just reject the notion that it was necessary to buy a brand new RDX to accomplish that goal.

Not necessary for you. But for him, it is. He doesn't want to deal with searching for a used car; it is his wife's car, if it breaks just send it to the dealer under warranty, the depreciation is really good on Honda's, there is peace of mind in a new car... It all adds up. It is by far not the right choice for me, but it is also not by any stretch unmustachian.

BTW, internet fist bump to another Miata-with a trailer. Double points if you drive it in the winter.

EricP

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2015, 01:20:08 PM »
I just chose the Honda Fit because it's getting thrown around as the "go-to" car that one should buy used.  I've done this quite a few times for other forums/discussions, when I made my only car purchase ever (2011 Dodge Challenger, back in 2011, go ahead and "facepunch" me or whatever) and when my brother purchased his car as well.
It's a decent choice from what I hear, I was just curious if you'd looked across the class. I'm not really into facepunching... if what you're doing works for you, I'm all for it.
Quote
It always turns out the same: minimal savings from buying a used car. 
I only asked the question because I found major savings (~40%) more than once on a car that was only 1-2 years old in very good condition. It's interesting to compare experiences and figure out how things vary with location and model.
Quote
Someone mentioned that Leafs are a steal used.  That may be the case because I see on Leaf and EV Forums, tons of people bragging about how cheap their lease is or recommending leasing the Leaf, but I'm putting my money on the fact that the sticker price is so muddied with rebates and such, that it's not actually significant savings.  Sure, you're getting it for $13k less than MSRP, but you're missing out on the Federal Tax Credit, your States tax credit, and some local tax benefit from installing a charger (for example) so in the end it isn't a steal, just the actual cost after all these other factors are taken into account.
Even *after* all that, they are a steal. I'm talking the delta between what a new buyer actually pays (after all incentives) and what you can pay for a slightly used one still in warranty. I've been watching regional prices for two years and I can confirm it with confidence. If I didn't have a monthly business trip through EVSE-poor territory at 3x the Leaf's range each way, I'd absolutely have one myself.
I see plenty of them for $10-15k, and you can hammer it for $.02 per mile at average US electric rates. Even a Prius will run 2-3x that on regular gas. If  you drive 1,000 miles a month (probably higher than MMM average, lower than US average) the gas savings alone offset ~$10K in financing (or return 15-20% on a cash buy).
The higher-than-average depreciation is due to fears about battery degradation, but if it loses more than 20%, you get a new one for free.

Your probably right about the fears about battery degredation, and that they are a "good deal," but after thinking about it a little more I also think we've underestimated the "Nex Gen Syndrome."  I have looked at getting a Nissan Leaf, but every time I get close to pulling the trigger, I see another news article about the Model 3 and the Bolt and realize how much nicer those cars are going to be.

The technology is moving at a very rapid pace and that's a pretty big factor in keeping the price down, I think.  If a Leaf fits your needs, you probably already jumped on it, otherwise you're waiting for the longer range BEVs.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2015, 01:27:50 PM »
BTW, internet fist bump to another Miata-with a trailer. Double points if you drive it in the winter.

I DD'd my S2000 year round in Chicagoland for about 4 years before I bought a daily driver.  Used it to haul lumber, patio furniture, all kinds of crap.  Drove it in plenty of snow storms on snow tires, too.  Never bothered with a trailer though (Just didn't need one).

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2015, 01:32:30 PM »
BTW, internet fist bump to another Miata-with a trailer. Double points if you drive it in the winter.

I DD'd my S2000 year round in Chicagoland for about 4 years before I bought a daily driver.  Used it to haul lumber, patio furniture, all kinds of crap.  Drove it in plenty of snow storms on snow tires, too.  Never bothered with a trailer though (Just didn't need one).

Where in Chicagoland? I wonder if I ever saw it around.

I had the trailer since I used it for moving, and when I go on vacation I like to bring a lot of stuff including another person and golf clubs and beer.

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2015, 01:33:35 PM »
I DD'd my S2000 year round in Chicagoland for about 4 years before I bought a daily driver.  Used it to haul lumber, patio furniture, all kinds of crap.  Drove it in plenty of snow storms on snow tires, too.  Never bothered with a trailer though (Just didn't need one).
I DD'd an S2000 for two years. I'd like to know you you carried anything bigger than a backpack with that fucker.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2015, 01:58:31 PM »
I DD'd my S2000 year round in Chicagoland for about 4 years before I bought a daily driver.  Used it to haul lumber, patio furniture, all kinds of crap.  Drove it in plenty of snow storms on snow tires, too.  Never bothered with a trailer though (Just didn't need one).
I DD'd an S2000 for two years. I'd like to know you you carried anything bigger than a backpack with that fucker.

Passenger seat comes out with 4 bolts.  I threw a tarp in there and brought home ~100 1x1x4s when I was redoing a porch railing.  I also put a 4' long laundry cabinet in the passenger seat, sticking up into the sky.  And tarped the rear deck and bungee-corded two plastic Adirondack chairs to the rollbar (only going a couple miles on surface streets).  There are lots of my pictures floating around on the internet, if you see a red S2000 carrying something goofy it's probably mine.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2015, 02:00:00 PM »
BTW, internet fist bump to another Miata-with a trailer. Double points if you drive it in the winter.

I DD'd my S2000 year round in Chicagoland for about 4 years before I bought a daily driver.  Used it to haul lumber, patio furniture, all kinds of crap.  Drove it in plenty of snow storms on snow tires, too.  Never bothered with a trailer though (Just didn't need one).

Where in Chicagoland? I wonder if I ever saw it around.

I had the trailer since I used it for moving, and when I go on vacation I like to bring a lot of stuff including another person and golf clubs and beer.

Used to drive Crystal Lake to Schaumburg and Des Plaines a lot, now I'm in Arlington Heights.  I can put two sets of clubs in the trunk, and I use the trunk well for beer/duffel/shoe bag/laptop as needed. 

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2015, 02:09:46 PM »
Ahh hell, here.

Snow:



New tire:



Lumber:



Some of those plastic shelving units:



2 sets of clubs:



Cooler and 2 folding chairs:




Etc etc etc.

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2015, 02:24:32 PM »
Good chance I did see you then. I've been at various stages driving between Libertyville or Elmhurst and downstate (Peoria/Bloomington/Normal), and had a lot of relatives in the Arlington/Prospect/Plaines area.

And yeah, I know all the tricks--the stook has a deeper trunk that the Miata, and I had the trailer mostly for trips (2 people with clothes for a week, cooler, golf clubs, and 2 guitars)

Jack

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #112 on: July 07, 2015, 02:56:53 PM »
Alright, fine! I still don't agree on the RDX, but I concede that it's enough within the realm of plausibility to not be worth arguing about anymore.

BTW, internet fist bump to another Miata-with a trailer. Double points if you drive it in the winter.

I've only had it since March, but I intend to! Of course, it's not as if Atlanta really has "winter" anyway. I could probably get away with summer tires year 'round, almost.

I should also mention that I own a pickup truck (from before I bought the Miata), and the I have the trailer mostly because the previous owner insisted I take it. I also have a third car that I need to fix; once I do that I might sell the truck.

Forcus

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #113 on: July 07, 2015, 02:59:14 PM »
Those are awesome pics. I'd like to have a Miata / S2000 / Solstice but my albino skin doesn't agree with the convertible tops. My favorite would be a turbo / manual / Solstice coupe but those the last time I checked are priced like the collectors items they will end up being.

mtn

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #114 on: July 07, 2015, 03:18:24 PM »
Those are awesome pics. I'd like to have a Miata / S2000 / Solstice but my albino skin doesn't agree with the convertible tops. My favorite would be a turbo / manual / Solstice coupe but those the last time I checked are priced like the collectors items they will end up being.

Bah, put a hardtop on it and let it be. Or put sunscreen on. Convertibles are great! I've got that setup (Miata hardtop) for you, delivered to anywhere in central IL, for $5,000.

BDA_Moose

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #115 on: July 07, 2015, 03:29:24 PM »
What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).

I sure hope you're playing one of those $100 Squiers you can get off of Amazon, and only through a shitty 80's Peavy practice amp - after all, just an appliance and anything more than the bare minimum is horseshit according to your logic

I think it's a valid philosophy to apply to just about anything.

My main guitar is a Charvel So Cal that I got used five years ago for 600$, and my backup is my first electric, an Epiphone Dot that my dad bought me when I started going to university.  Both play well, and sound great.  When you get into multi-thousand dollar guitars you're paying more for a finish, or particular brand name than you are for playability and sound.

The analogy kinda breaks down because while people pay to hear my guitar (so something really awful sounding or playing is a non-starter), they don't give a shit how I happen to get to the gig.  Unless you're being paid to commute rather than work, spending a ton of money on a high horsepower racing car is pretty silly.

Nope, I'm still good

Seems we agree that there can be utility beyond the minimum, and that utility can very by person

Incidentally... I have a Charvel Model 7 myself.  Bit of a weird guitar, hardtail tele body with a reverse pointy 80's headstock.  My first "real" electric (had a bit of a POS Ibanez before that) - dad bought it new for me, summer of '89 I guess?  It's had flatwound 12's on it since about 1993, and gained a "little '59" in the bridge probably somewhere around 2000. 

nobodyspecial

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2015, 05:29:35 PM »
I took another tack and went all electric.  Our town allows golf carts on certain roads (under 35 mph speed limit).
In a post-oil Mad-Max world, wouldn't everyone be driving electric golf carts or cycling rather than double stacked double-V12 Dodge somethings?

Might make a better film as well.

GuitarStv

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #117 on: July 13, 2015, 06:02:49 AM »
What's the purpose of your vehicle?

For all it's transportation.  For a few (who have been rather heavily swayed by advertising), it's also become a symbol of who they are as a person.  The latter group tend to buy more expensive vehicles and make up laughable claims and needs to support their decision.  It's cool if you are a member of that group, but it flies in the face of what this forum is about.  So don't get up in arms when people call you on your bullshit.

There's a third group of people who actually like their cars and don't see it as an extension of either their penis or wallet.  I didn't buy a sports car because it was advertised (in fact, it barely was), I bought it because it was a childhood dream.  I'm sure there are lycra-clad biking dorks who are happy to explain why $1k bike X makes sense over $300 bike Y.  Same deal here.  To say it's just about image is horseshit, and I bet you know that.

"Childhood dream" is a horseshit reason to buy something.  At least we've stopped pretending that some level of performance is 'necessary' for certain drivers, and come back to the fact that it's done largely for purely psychological reasons (in this case, the need to for image to live up to childhood fantasies . . . which were likely driven by advertising - either directly, or it's impact on someone around you who then convinced you that it was a good idea).

I sure hope you're playing one of those $100 Squiers you can get off of Amazon, and only through a shitty 80's Peavy practice amp - after all, just an appliance and anything more than the bare minimum is horseshit according to your logic

I think it's a valid philosophy to apply to just about anything.

My main guitar is a Charvel So Cal that I got used five years ago for 600$, and my backup is my first electric, an Epiphone Dot that my dad bought me when I started going to university.  Both play well, and sound great.  When you get into multi-thousand dollar guitars you're paying more for a finish, or particular brand name than you are for playability and sound.

The analogy kinda breaks down because while people pay to hear my guitar (so something really awful sounding or playing is a non-starter), they don't give a shit how I happen to get to the gig.  Unless you're being paid to commute rather than work, spending a ton of money on a high horsepower racing car is pretty silly.

Nope, I'm still good

Seems we agree that there can be utility beyond the minimum, and that utility can very by person

Incidentally... I have a Charvel Model 7 myself.  Bit of a weird guitar, hardtail tele body with a reverse pointy 80's headstock.  My first "real" electric (had a bit of a POS Ibanez before that) - dad bought it new for me, summer of '89 I guess?  It's had flatwound 12's on it since about 1993, and gained a "little '59" in the bridge probably somewhere around 2000.

Flat 12s?  You play jazz on it?

Digital Dogma

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #118 on: July 13, 2015, 06:36:49 AM »
Chris really identifies strongly with his car, its tough to be critical of yourself for enjoying something so much. Hope its not costing you too much chris, seems like it could turn into a money pit some day. Ive got a friend modifying an old track car now, it costs quite a bit even when he goes for the cheaper options.

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2015, 10:42:29 AM »
I just chose the Honda Fit because it's getting thrown around as the "go-to" car that one should buy used.  I've done this quite a few times for other forums/discussions, when I made my only car purchase ever (2011 Dodge Challenger, back in 2011, go ahead and "facepunch" me or whatever) and when my brother purchased his car as well.
It's a decent choice from what I hear, I was just curious if you'd looked across the class. I'm not really into facepunching... if what you're doing works for you, I'm all for it.
Quote
It always turns out the same: minimal savings from buying a used car. 
I only asked the question because I found major savings (~40%) more than once on a car that was only 1-2 years old in very good condition. It's interesting to compare experiences and figure out how things vary with location and model.
Quote
Someone mentioned that Leafs are a steal used.  That may be the case because I see on Leaf and EV Forums, tons of people bragging about how cheap their lease is or recommending leasing the Leaf, but I'm putting my money on the fact that the sticker price is so muddied with rebates and such, that it's not actually significant savings.  Sure, you're getting it for $13k less than MSRP, but you're missing out on the Federal Tax Credit, your States tax credit, and some local tax benefit from installing a charger (for example) so in the end it isn't a steal, just the actual cost after all these other factors are taken into account.
Even *after* all that, they are a steal. I'm talking the delta between what a new buyer actually pays (after all incentives) and what you can pay for a slightly used one still in warranty. I've been watching regional prices for two years and I can confirm it with confidence. If I didn't have a monthly business trip through EVSE-poor territory at 3x the Leaf's range each way, I'd absolutely have one myself.
I see plenty of them for $10-15k, and you can hammer it for $.02 per mile at average US electric rates. Even a Prius will run 2-3x that on regular gas. If  you drive 1,000 miles a month (probably higher than MMM average, lower than US average) the gas savings alone offset ~$10K in financing (or return 15-20% on a cash buy).
The higher-than-average depreciation is due to fears about battery degradation, but if it loses more than 20%, you get a new one for free.

Your probably right about the fears about battery degredation, and that they are a "good deal," but after thinking about it a little more I also think we've underestimated the "Nex Gen Syndrome."  I have looked at getting a Nissan Leaf, but every time I get close to pulling the trigger, I see another news article about the Model 3 and the Bolt and realize how much nicer those cars are going to be.

The technology is moving at a very rapid pace and that's a pretty big factor in keeping the price down, I think.  If a Leaf fits your needs, you probably already jumped on it, otherwise you're waiting for the longer range BEVs.

What "technology" are we talking about? The only big advances will be in cheaper/smaller/lighter batteries and in autonomous control. The batteries are replaceable, and if you have a more mustachian commute, you don't even need the bigger battery. The autonomous control is quite a ways from being commercially available (other than small features here and there). Teslas will have some of the hardware that will enable more functionality with software updates. But you're still taking partial control and years away and an extra $20k-25k (vs used Leaf).

Even if there's a $35k 200 mile car available soon, there will still be a market for a great 80 mile car that has almost no maintenance cost and energy costs you won't even notice ($5/mo per car for us).

EricP

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #120 on: July 13, 2015, 02:47:09 PM »
I just chose the Honda Fit because it's getting thrown around as the "go-to" car that one should buy used.  I've done this quite a few times for other forums/discussions, when I made my only car purchase ever (2011 Dodge Challenger, back in 2011, go ahead and "facepunch" me or whatever) and when my brother purchased his car as well.
It's a decent choice from what I hear, I was just curious if you'd looked across the class. I'm not really into facepunching... if what you're doing works for you, I'm all for it.
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It always turns out the same: minimal savings from buying a used car. 
I only asked the question because I found major savings (~40%) more than once on a car that was only 1-2 years old in very good condition. It's interesting to compare experiences and figure out how things vary with location and model.
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Someone mentioned that Leafs are a steal used.  That may be the case because I see on Leaf and EV Forums, tons of people bragging about how cheap their lease is or recommending leasing the Leaf, but I'm putting my money on the fact that the sticker price is so muddied with rebates and such, that it's not actually significant savings.  Sure, you're getting it for $13k less than MSRP, but you're missing out on the Federal Tax Credit, your States tax credit, and some local tax benefit from installing a charger (for example) so in the end it isn't a steal, just the actual cost after all these other factors are taken into account.
Even *after* all that, they are a steal. I'm talking the delta between what a new buyer actually pays (after all incentives) and what you can pay for a slightly used one still in warranty. I've been watching regional prices for two years and I can confirm it with confidence. If I didn't have a monthly business trip through EVSE-poor territory at 3x the Leaf's range each way, I'd absolutely have one myself.
I see plenty of them for $10-15k, and you can hammer it for $.02 per mile at average US electric rates. Even a Prius will run 2-3x that on regular gas. If  you drive 1,000 miles a month (probably higher than MMM average, lower than US average) the gas savings alone offset ~$10K in financing (or return 15-20% on a cash buy).
The higher-than-average depreciation is due to fears about battery degradation, but if it loses more than 20%, you get a new one for free.

Your probably right about the fears about battery degredation, and that they are a "good deal," but after thinking about it a little more I also think we've underestimated the "Nex Gen Syndrome."  I have looked at getting a Nissan Leaf, but every time I get close to pulling the trigger, I see another news article about the Model 3 and the Bolt and realize how much nicer those cars are going to be.

The technology is moving at a very rapid pace and that's a pretty big factor in keeping the price down, I think.  If a Leaf fits your needs, you probably already jumped on it, otherwise you're waiting for the longer range BEVs.

What "technology" are we talking about? The only big advances will be in cheaper/smaller/lighter batteries and in autonomous control. The batteries are replaceable, and if you have a more mustachian commute, you don't even need the bigger battery. The autonomous control is quite a ways from being commercially available (other than small features here and there). Teslas will have some of the hardware that will enable more functionality with software updates. But you're still taking partial control and years away and an extra $20k-25k (vs used Leaf).

Even if there's a $35k 200 mile car available soon, there will still be a market for a great 80 mile car that has almost no maintenance cost and energy costs you won't even notice ($5/mo per car for us).

So which one is it?  First you stated that used Leafs are a steal and now you're saying there will still be a market.  These two things are at ends with each other.  If Used Leafs are considerably cheaper than their new counterparts, there has to be a reason because this just isn't the case in other economical foreign cars (Honda Fit, for instance).  And "Next Gen Syndrome" is the reason.

Few want a car that can only go 84 miles and it has nothing to do with their commute as the grand majority of people already have commutes shorter than 80 miles.  (Hell, even 80 miles is very un-mustachian) They want it for going places on the weekends, cross country trips.  The 200 mile quick charging cars will satisfy those desires leaving a giant glut of Leafs that no one wants.  Already, no one wants used Leafs, so why is that changing in the future when better cars exist?

Yes, the "technology" isn't moving forward at light speed, but a 2015 Nissan Leaf has 10% reduced fuel costs compared to the 2011 model and an additional 10 miles in range.

Chris22

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2015, 08:19:50 AM »
Chris really identifies strongly with his car, its tough to be critical of yourself for enjoying something so much. Hope its not costing you too much chris, seems like it could turn into a money pit some day. Ive got a friend modifying an old track car now, it costs quite a bit even when he goes for the cheaper options.

Nah. I do 95% of my own work on the car, maintenance probably costs me <$100/yr. every 3-4 years or so I need a $500 set of tires. And insurance costs me $50-75/mo. Figure $1200/yr or so to own the car. Worth it to me.

zephyr911

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Re: Advice form car salesmen.... no thanks
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2015, 09:34:40 AM »
Yes, the "technology" isn't moving forward at light speed, but a 2015 Nissan Leaf has 10% reduced fuel costs compared to the 2011 model and an additional 10 miles in range.
That *is* light speed by auto industry standards. Average US auto efficiency went up 0.1 mpg from 25.3 to 25.4 last month, which was actually a good month by recent standards. Even tiny incremental progress is hard, with ICE tech as mature as it is.
By contrast, lithium battery cost per kWh has dropped by 6% annually for years, with similar (or possibly better) progress in storage density (measured against both weight and volume). Volt Gen 2 will have 25% more range than Gen 1, four years earlier, and cost less to boot. Next year's LEAF is projected at 100-125 miles of battery range and the goal for 2017 is 200+ to match the forthcoming Chevy Bolt - which already has 55 prototypes fielded regularly getting that range in tests.
Anyway, as far as used prices go, I don't know what to guess about the early LEAFs, because the dynamics of the overall market are unpredictable. My guess is they'll find plenty of niche use, and the smaller range will become less of an issue as public charging infrastructure expands. They're already so cheap that you could buy one and put today's bigger battery in it for less than the cost of a new car, so the price floor can't be far off.