Author Topic: Admire, Aspire, Acquire  (Read 13363 times)

11ducks

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Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« on: February 07, 2015, 04:19:33 AM »
Just heard this phrase on an advertisement as I was passing the tv, and it made me shudder. Why would you aspire to owning more stuff? How about aspiring to something a little greater than new bling or a shiny car?

deborah

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2015, 04:22:01 AM »
Admire MMM for being retired early,
Aspire to join him and the others on the MMM forum in becoming retired,
Acquire a bicycle and a stash...

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2015, 07:10:53 AM »
Admire MMM for being retired early,
Aspire to join him and the others on the MMM forum in becoming retired,
Acquire a bicycle and a stash...

That's kind of like what I was going to say -- I actually really like this little phrase.

Not when applied to material things of course, but:

Admire scientists making exciting discoveries in my field of interest
Aspire to join them
Acquire enough knowledge, skills, and experience to find answers to the questions I have (which no one has ever answered before!)

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 08:49:45 AM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2015, 08:54:45 AM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.

I am a woman and a feminist and the continued exclusion of female scientists from the upper echelons of STEM fields is of great concern to me.  I found that shirt distasteful, though I did not "pass out in rage." 

Also, I'm gonna cure narcolepsy, not cancer ;)

intirb

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2015, 09:25:17 AM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.

Comic book themed.. right..



That said, when I discover a cure for something, you bet your bottom I'll be wearing a shirt covered with scantily-clad men in suggestive poses.  Batman banana hammocks all the way.  Let's see how long it takes my coworkers defending this guy's freedom of expression to tell me my shirt makes them feel uncomfortable:


Khaetra

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2015, 10:01:00 AM »
Love it!!

Kris

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2015, 10:19:16 AM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.

Comic book themed.. right..



That said, when I discover a cure for something, you bet your bottom I'll be wearing a shirt covered with scantily-clad men in suggestive poses.  Batman banana hammocks all the way.  Let's see how long it takes my coworkers defending this guy's freedom of expression to tell me my shirt makes them feel uncomfortable:



Please tell me where I can buy that shirt right now.  Mustachianism be damned, I must have it.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 11:20:37 AM »
Tying in superpowers and sentiment...

http://weknowmemes.com/2011/10/money-best-superpower-ever/

What's wrong with bling and a shiny car, provided you can afford it?  Problem is easy credit makes these things more affordable than they are compared to pedestrian versions.  It used to be you could judge a man by his possessions but that no longer seems the case.

Admire, Aspire, and Acquire is what gets us off the couch, into school, into jobs, and into becoming productive members of society. Whether the end target is early retirement or a yacht, we need a focal point to it.

Annamal

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 12:49:34 PM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.

Or you know, don't wear a shirt with near naked people on it when representing your organisation in front of the international media?


Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 01:26:39 PM »
The "bullies" made him cry and apologize on the finest day of his life...wasn't that mean enough to cut the guy some slack for possibly being a socially unaware geek?

(I also love the irony that it was his female friend who custom made the shirt for him too)

« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 01:38:11 PM by Capsu78 »

Annamal

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 01:38:37 PM »
You all made him cry and apologize on the finest day of his life...wasn't that mean enough to cut the guy some slack for being a geek?

(I also love the irony that it was his female friend who custom made the shirt for him too)

I'm a geek, I wear tee-shirts  and jeans to work and will fight very hard to keep wearing them on a day to day basis, I would still don a suit if representing my government funded organisation in front of international media.

intirb

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2015, 02:31:20 PM »
...wasn't that mean enough to cut the guy some slack for possibly being a socially unaware geek?

Sure, I have some sympathy for socially unaware geeks.  I'm one of them.  What gets me though, when I think about this particular situation, is that it wasn't just one socially unaware geek.  This guy showed up to work in that shirt on an important media day for the lab and not one person had the awareness to say - hey, maybe that's not a good choice?  Not one person in the whole lab realized the message this shirt might send?  Not one person spoke up?

The dude seems like a nice guy.  I'm sure if someone had said something before the cameras, he would have thought about it and made a different choice.  But no one said anything.  It's not about one guy and his shirt - it's an endemic, institutional problem.

And don't get me wrong - I think the shirt is pretty cool.  Bad choice for that day, but pretty cool nonetheless.  The fact that a woman made the shirt isn't really the point, you know.  The shirt isn't bad by itself - it was bad in that particular context. 

Please tell me where I can buy that shirt right now.  Mustachianism be damned, I must have it.

Ha, it's not actually a real shirt.  I pulled the image from this page: http://blog.sfgate.com/mmagowan/2012/05/10/what-if-male-avengers-posed-like-the-female-one/

Kris

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2015, 02:35:33 PM »


Please tell me where I can buy that shirt right now.  Mustachianism be damned, I must have it.

Ha, it's not actually a real shirt.  I pulled the image from this page: http://blog.sfgate.com/mmagowan/2012/05/10/what-if-male-avengers-posed-like-the-female-one/
[/quote]

Yeah, I didn't think so... But god, how I hoped...

No matter, however.  Now that you've given me that link, the shirt will be mine, courtesy of CafePress!

austin

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2015, 11:25:31 PM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.


Are people still crying about this? Even the guy recognized he made a big mistake and apologized right afterwards, but seems like the typical crybabies can't drop this.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:38:39 AM by austin »

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2015, 07:07:47 AM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.

I am a woman and a feminist and the continued exclusion of female scientists from the upper echelons of STEM fields is of great concern to me.  I found that shirt distasteful, though I did not "pass out in rage." 



Are people still crying about this? Even the guy recognized he made a big mistake and apologized right afterwards, but seems like the typical crybabies can't drop this.

I haven't heard anything about it in any circles (feminist or science-y) since probably the week that it happened, which IIRC was months ago. 

That doesn't mean it's less distasteful now than it was when he did it.

It also doesn't mean that his apology for his shirt miraculously fixed gender inequality in STEM fields.  That's what's offensive to me. 

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2015, 07:49:21 AM »
Caliq,
If we want to (respectfully) discuss gender inequality in STEM, isn't it equally important to discuss the gender inequality my son in law faces every day? 
He is a male High School teacher...

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2015, 07:55:53 AM »
Austin,
I have to stand up for Caliq here- she wasn't whining but rather responding to my snarky comment.
I like snark... it pleases the inner child :-)

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 08:45:37 AM »
Caliq,
If we want to (respectfully) discuss gender inequality in STEM, isn't it equally important to discuss the gender inequality my son in law faces every day? 
He is a male High School teacher...

No, we don't have to discuss that.  Your son-in-law may deal with gender-based stereotypes in his daily work life, but I highly doubt he faces systemic gender inequality -- Presumably he has the job he wants, at a rate of pay that is equal to if not greater than the pay received by women in the same field.  You can look up statistics on pay and promotion rates of male vs. female nurses; even in traditionally female-dominated careers, men are viewed as more supervisory and promoted frequently, even when they don't want to be.  In fact, if your SIL aspired to education administration and obtained appropriate degrees/training, I can almost guarantee you that he would be hired/promoted to Vice Principal significantly faster than a woman with the exact same qualifications.

You can also look up statistics on inequality in pay rates, graduation rates, and promotion rates in various STEM disciplines.  I happened to have looked this up this morning, for my own cost/benefit analysis of getting a PhD vs. PharmD vs. entering industry with a BS in Molecular Bio, so I have it handy and I will provide it.  Normally I wouldn't but today's your lucky day ;) Also, I would like to point out that the equality in grad student stipends is because they're set levels mandated by the university and published publicly; there is very little room for negotiation or alteration.  This is not the case at higher levels, and so disparity sets in.

Link: http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/38033/title/2013-Life-Sciences-Salary-Survey/

Several other interesting studies have been done where the researchers submit several CVs for academic job positions and/or training programs, in a variety of disciplines.  The CVs (for each discipline/application type) are identical in every way, except for the name and gender pronouns.  Names typically associated with white males are offered interviews with alarmingly greater frequency than those associated with females or minorities.  When asked about their choices afterwards, the hiring/accepting scientists tend to say things like "I just thought this resume showed more competence."  This occurs even when the person making the decision is a female.  It's so ingrained in our society to view males as more assertive, competent, and respectable that women AND men do it subconsciously, even if they recognize the gender inequality issue needs to be corrected.  Little girls are 'too bossy' or 'intense'; little boys are 'go-getters' and 'leaders'.  This morphs into women who are 'bitchy' vs. men who are 'assertive.'  I don't have links to this data handy but it's not hard to find -- it made a pretty big splash in the media. 

It's bullshit.  It has a huge impact on girls and women every second of every day.  I can give you countless examples from my life alone, but I will provide you with the most obvious one that's happened so far:

I was an undergraduate TA for a non-majors general biology course a few years ago.  As a TA, you have to attend lectures so you know where the students are in the material and what the professor wants them to focus on, and you generally sit in the back of the classroom near students.  For the first week of class or so, the professor will point you out and make sure the students know who you are and what your office hours are and when you're running study sessions.

One day, the kid sitting next to me started talking to me after the professor introduced me and explained why I was there.  The kid asked me why I was TAing.  I said, well I'm a biology major and I get credit for TAing and also gain teaching experience.  He kind of laughed and said, "Oh, so you're a Biology major -- you must be going into nursing?"

HELL FUCKING NO.  Blood is gross, I do not want to wipe people's butts, and I have zero bedside manner or interest in clinical anything.  Or even interest in general macro-level biology.  Cells and molecules, please.

This kid assumed I was going to be a nurse, because I'm a girl and majoring in biology.  If I was a guy, 99.99999% chance he would have asked if I was going to be a doctor.

Things like that add up.  They make you question yourself.  Look up imposter syndrome

For example, I don't mean to be conceited, but I score very very highly on all the typical measures of intelligence/academic ability (like 99.9th percentile).  This has been the case since I was very young.  I was always told I was bossy and intense and bitchy; I dumbed down my academic ability/achievements when I got to the age where I started caring what people thought of me.  I'm sort of back on track now,  in that I'm actually applying myself to academics and obviously considering several high-achieving careers.  But I am constantly questioning my ability to actually hack it in the academic world, and constantly worrying about getting a PhD and ending up stuck in adjunct hell.  I hate teaching, I don't want to be an adjunct, I want to do research on a very specific topic that isn't hugely popular.  The chances of being able to do that in industry or government are small, and so anything other than tenure-track academia is going to feel like a failure to me.  Based on my scores, past achievements, etc etc, there is no logical reason that I shouldn't be feeling like I could do anything I wanted.  But, I still worry and question myself.  I do not see the same level of self-doubt in my male classmates, but I do see it in many of the females.




This is why we get frustrated when you try to create a false equivalency between systematic gender inequality and societal gender stereotypes.  They are related, but they are not the same. 

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2015, 10:14:29 AM »
Caliq,
Thank you for the response.  You put a lot into that and I gave it a serious read and reread.  A couple of point- counterpoints.
Re my SIL- he is 5 years into his career. He sent out 100ish resumes to public school districts over that time. He got to the 2nd interview phase exactly once. So he has taught in 2 different Catholic HS's he has to commute an hour to, without the pay structure and benefits afforded to my public school teaching daughter.  He has a great resume.  He comes from teaching stock- both parents at major universities, one a published law school Dean- so it's not like he the "local jock who could not do anything, so he became a teacher".  The fact that he is in an "industry" largely managed by females, at least in our region, is still a fact.

As for my perspective, it has been shaped by being around strong women my whole life.  My mother was orphaned at 8, raised by her 16yo sister, no college education- yet managed to be a working mom- tax preparation, retail store manager, newspaper reporter and 2 term president of a Womens Business Professional Association.  She was never a "feminist" but rather had a demeanor that "didn't suffer fools well"- myself, brothers and father included in that audience!  And her response to my budding snarkiness sometimes included a whack to the back of my head!

My wife of 30 years was a newly divorced mother of one living with her parents the day I picked her up for our first date.  She had the grades for college but not the opportunity, so she went to "business college" for 18 months learning secretarial skills, shorthand and typing.  Heck, she can field dress an IBM Selectric typewriter blindfolded!   Flash forward 3 corporate careers and she has made the VP level twice and is now a world wide director in a technology company whose name you would know.  She has worked for, with and over every flavor of male and female manager ever created short of the drum beater on a slave ship.  She can play "one of the boys" when she had to... and yet can get rather yelly in saying "ENOUGH!"  when she felt a line had been crossed.
She never went looking for glass ceilings and never found any.  She has always been sensitive about not having even an undergraduate degree in a position you would expect a B school grad to hold.  When she was RIFed as a VP in 2009, she had a recruiter interview her who questioned her academic background.  He ended the interview, saying to a 2 time VP "... there are no jobs for this type of resume".  She didn't tear up- she was mighty pissed though!  She and we together have observed a number of "female executive" management styles and find close to 50% of the women we have known in business over the years placed in management roles flounder by there own choices- some of the scenarios included self imposed isolation, surrounding themselves with less talented but compliant folks etc.  We can also validate that some women in management positions treat other women pretty poorly- more poorly than they treat male peers.
My wife learned a new phrase from Australia when she met with her team down under- "You don't want to be a tall poppy...tall poppy's get cut first".  It is her ability to be a tall poppy without others sabotaging her behind her back that is one of her greatest strengths.  She had had to RIF probably over 100 staff in her various roles over the years. The amazing thing to me is how many cards she got afterwards telling her she was the best boss they ever had.
I could go on, but I wont.  I have raised 2 amazing daughters too and hope they are as strong as their mother.  They both laugh the loudest when Dad is the butt of the joke!  Like I say, my perspective on feminism was shaped by always being around strong and smart women and I just don't relate to the victimhood sisterhood that is being peddled by Bitter Woymn's Studies programs at most major universities.
I applaud your path through a career in STEM and hope you find that cure for narcolepsy.  I also hope to never run up against you as a contestant on Jeopardy :-)

 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:04:08 AM by Capsu78 »

cautiouslyunconventional

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2015, 10:17:29 AM »
I don't think gender discrimination that men face has to be part of every conversation about women's issues - especially with things like imagery that don't really have an equivalent. Like, we're talking about this specific situation with the shirt, not all of feminism.

But it's still really important to talk about things like the difficulty of being a male school teacher. Mysoginy hurts men - and often it's people/society thinking it's bad to be feminine except in specific ways, and getting upset when men do something they think is feminine. Boys don't cry, boys can't like pink, men don't cook, men can't be caretakers, all that shit. I know some feminist circles aren't very welcoming to men, but more of them should be, because we're all being hurt and constrained by the same attitudes. Our interests are mostly aligned, so it makes sense for men and women to be allies in this.

(I'm a female software engineer. In case that matters to anyone.)

ToughMother

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2015, 10:19:32 AM »
Caliq,

Everything you've written on this thread, well, +1,000,000

(From another female working in a very male dominated data field...)

austin

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2015, 11:40:39 AM »
Caliq,
Just don't wear a comic book themed shirt with women superheros on it when you discover the cure for cancer.  It could trigger serious microaggressions in some feminists and cause them to pass out in rage.

I am a woman and a feminist and the continued exclusion of female scientists from the upper echelons of STEM fields is of great concern to me.  I found that shirt distasteful, though I did not "pass out in rage." 



Are people still crying about this? Even the guy recognized he made a big mistake and apologized right afterwards, but seems like the typical crybabies can't drop this.

I haven't heard anything about it in any circles (feminist or science-y) since probably the week that it happened, which IIRC was months ago. 

That doesn't mean it's less distasteful now than it was when he did it.

It also doesn't mean that his apology for his shirt miraculously fixed gender inequality in STEM fields.  That's what's offensive to me.

Oh I agree with you completely. I'm talking about the crybabies who don't see a problem with wearing a shirt like that when representing your organization and tried to drag out this "controversy."

I was actually trying to reply to someone else's post. Whoops.

austin

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2015, 11:42:16 AM »
Austin,
I have to stand up for Caliq here- she wasn't whining but rather responding to my snarky comment.
I like snark... it pleases the inner child :-)

I was actually responding to you whining, not Caliq.

Annamal

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2015, 11:44:11 AM »
Caliq,

Everything you've written on this thread, well, +1,000,000

(From another female working in a very male dominated data field...)

Seconded!

And oh god is impostor syndrome ever real.

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2015, 11:50:50 AM »
Austin,
I have to stand up for Caliq here- she wasn't whining but rather responding to my snarky comment.
I like snark... it pleases the inner child :-)

I was actually responding to you whining, not Caliq.

I respect respectful discourse.

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2015, 01:16:32 PM »
Caliq,
Thank you for the response.  You put a lot into that and I gave it a serious read and reread.  A couple of point- counterpoints.
Re my SIL- he is 5 years into his career. He sent out 100ish resumes to public school districts over that time. He got to the 2nd interview phase exactly once. So he has taught in 2 different Catholic HS's he has to commute an hour to, without the pay structure and benefits afforded to my public school teaching daughter.  He has a great resume.  He comes from teaching stock- both parents at major universities, one a published law school Dean- so it's not like he the "local jock who could not do anything, so he became a teacher".  The fact that he is in an "industry" largely managed by females, at least in our region, is still a fact.

As for my perspective, it has been shaped by being around strong women my whole life.  My mother was orphaned at 8, raised by her 16yo sister, no college education- yet managed to be a working mom- tax preparation, retail store manager, newspaper reporter and 2 term president of a Womens Business Professional Association.  She was never a "feminist" but rather had a demeanor that "didn't suffer fools well"- myself, brothers and father included in that audience!  And her response to my budding snarkiness sometimes included a whack to the back of my head!

My wife of 30 years was a newly divorced mother of one living with her parents the day I picked her up for our first date.  She had the grades for college but not the opportunity, so she went to "business college" for 18 months learning secretarial skills, shorthand and typing.  Heck, she can field dress an IBM Selectric typewriter blindfolded!   Flash forward 3 corporate careers and she has made the VP level twice and is now a world wide director in a technology company whose name you would know.  She has worked for, with and over every flavor of male and female manager ever created short of the drum beater on a slave ship.  She can play "one of the boys" when she had to... and yet can get rather yelly in saying "ENOUGH!"  when she felt a line had been crossed.
She never went looking for glass ceilings and never found any.  She has always been sensitive about not having even an undergraduate degree in a position you would expect a B school grad to hold.  When she was RIFed as a VP in 2009, she had a recruiter interview her who questioned her academic background.  He ended the interview, saying to a 2 time VP "... there are no jobs for this type of resume".  She didn't tear up- she was mighty pissed though!  She and we together have observed a number of "female executive" management styles and find close to 50% of the women we have known in business over the years placed in management roles flounder by there own choices- some of the scenarios included self imposed isolation, surrounding themselves with less talented but compliant folks etc.  We can also validate that some women in management positions treat other women pretty poorly- more poorly than they treat male peers.
My wife learned a new phrase from Australia when she met with her team down under- "You don't want to be a tall poppy...tall poppy's get cut first".  It is her ability to be a tall poppy without others sabotaging her behind her back that is one of her greatest strengths.  She had had to RIF probably over 100 staff in her various roles over the years. The amazing thing to me is how many cards she got afterwards telling her she was the best boss they ever had.
I could go on, but I wont.  I have raised 2 amazing daughters too and hope they are as strong as their mother.  They both laugh the loudest when Dad is the butt of the joke!  Like I say, my perspective on feminism was shaped by always being around strong and smart women and I just don't relate to the victimhood sisterhood that is being peddled by Bitter Woymn's Studies programs at most major universities.
I applaud your path through a career in STEM and hope you find that cure for narcolepsy.  I also hope to never run up against you as a contestant on Jeopardy :-)

I think you need to do some reading on actual feminist theory, as well as psychology and sociology.  I've never taken a Women's Studies class, though I did take a Feminism and the Arts gen ed once.  So I'm not super educated on a lot of the theory, but I know from personal experience and research data that things in this country have a long way to go.  I'm not bitter about it, I just expect it to change.  And cautiouslyunconventional was right; I should have been more understanding of your son in law's situation.  I am definitely of the opinion that misogyny harms both men and women; if you look back in my previous posts you can find a story I've told a couple times about my disabled husband's mother telling us that it's not "natural or biblical for a man not to support his family."  Sharing that misogynistic opinion is offensive to me (I can support us, tyvm!) and definitely not helpful for his mental state as he tries to transition from a mr.toughguy Marine to a SAHH/future SAHD. 

I can also tell by the statements that I've bolded in your response that you probably haven't done a lot of thinking or reading about what's gone on in the background of your wife's career -- all of these things have very legitimate psychological and sociological explanations.  I don't really have the time or to be honest the knowledge to really get in depth on all of it but let's just say that while we do technically make our own choices, there are usually subconscious factors driving the 'choice' we make.  Women who surround themselves with people that are easier to manage probably have doubts about their ability to manage, or have had issues managing difficult people in the past.  The phenomenon of women in positions of power treating other women poorly is also well researched and documented. 

gimp

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2015, 08:50:57 PM »
this fucking thread, guys, top lulz.

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2015, 09:12:55 PM »
Caliq,
We are both "scientists" as you are a top tier Biologist and I  have a Liberal Arts degree in Political Science :-), but I would never try to enter the STEM country club as I am a mile wide in my understandings of the world, but about an inch deep in how the wheels and cogs come together to create synergy.
So I will give up that you are perhaps much smarter test wise than I am... however, that being said, I would ask to acknowledge that navigating a successful career, marriage and family grants me the permission to state that I, perhaps, have more days and episodes of "life experience" than you that I am willing to offer up as collateral for what I am about to say.
I am wondering what led to your diagnosis that I am lacking in understanding "feminist theory"... what if I choose to not recognize it as a being valid theory in the first place? I explained my nurture as honestly as any post on this forum... Surrounded by strong, successful women my whole life and intending to instill the same in my 5 year old granddaughter as well- multi generational Girl Power so to speak.
I did learn something new from you today,(something I strive to do every day).... the concept of "impostor syndrome".   While Dr Pauline Clance's thoughts are interesting, and seem to be distill down to rationalizing why  "high achieving women = low self esteem", that has not been my life observation.  I wonder if Dr Pauline Chance's proposition was presented by some dude named Dr Paul Chance, that he wouldn't be pilloried at the alter of political correctness.   

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 09:28:56 PM »
Gimp,
Second thing I looked up today- lulz- two new things keeping an old dude hip today!  Thanks!

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2015, 09:35:38 PM »
Caliq,
We are both "scientists" as you are a top tier Biologist and I  have a Liberal Arts degree in Political Science :-), but I would never try to enter the STEM country club as I am a mile wide in my understandings of the world, but about an inch deep in how the wheels and cogs come together to create synergy.
So I will give up that you are perhaps much smarter test wise than I am... however, that being said, I would ask to acknowledge that navigating a successful career, marriage and family grants me the permission to state that I, perhaps, have more days and episodes of "life experience" than you that I am willing to offer up as collateral for what I am about to say.
I am wondering what led to your diagnosis that I am lacking in understanding "feminist theory"... what if I choose to not recognize it as a being valid theory in the first place? I explained my nurture as honestly as any post on this forum... Surrounded by strong, successful women my whole life and intending to instill the same in my 5 year old granddaughter as well- multi generational Girl Power so to speak.
I did learn something new from you today,(something I strive to do every day).... the concept of "impostor syndrome".   While Dr Pauline Clance's thoughts are interesting, and seem to be distill down to rationalizing why  "high achieving women = low self esteem", that has not been my life observation.  I wonder if Dr Pauline Chance's proposition was presented by some dude named Dr Paul Chance, that he wouldn't be pilloried at the alter of political correctness.

If you support girl power, you're a feminist ;)  Maybe you don't ascribe to all the philosophies or whatever, but the bottom line is that feminism = support for gender equality.  I'm not so attached to the word or the academic theory to argue over the semantics; sounds like you're doing right by the women in your life and that's what matters.

Quote
fem·i·nism (noun)
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

But on the original topic of the shirt -- would you want your granddaughter walking into her first day of lab freshman year of college and seeing her professor wearing a shirt like that? 

Zamboni

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2015, 09:56:40 PM »
I'm with caliq on this.  Well said.

Honestly I am at the point where if a colleague wore a shirt like that, then I would walk straight to my office to get the employer-themed t-shirt I keep as a spare on the odd chance that I drip catsup onto my shirt at lunch.  I would then go right back to his location, pull him aside discreetly, hand him the t-shirt, and tell him he needs to go change into something more professional pronto.

Capsu78, crying "reverse discrimination" over one anecdote doesn't lessen the impact of systematic discrimination that happens to certain groups of people every single day.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

Cressida

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2015, 01:22:21 AM »
But it's still really important to talk about things like the difficulty of being a male school teacher. Mysoginy hurts men - and often it's people/society thinking it's bad to be feminine except in specific ways, and getting upset when men do something they think is feminine. Boys don't cry, boys can't like pink, men don't cook, men can't be caretakers, all that shit. I know some feminist circles aren't very welcoming to men, but more of them should be, because we're all being hurt and constrained by the same attitudes. Our interests are mostly aligned, so it makes sense for men and women to be allies in this.

+1

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2015, 08:11:28 PM »

Capsu78, crying "reverse discrimination" over one anecdote doesn't lessen the impact of systematic discrimination that happens to certain groups of people every single day.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

Zamboni,
Not sure where exactly I did... my debate point was simply that everybody gets to "be" whatever they are born into... Crying "reverse discrimination" to me is a way to try to get a bigger slice of the same pizza.  I coach all of my family that creating a bigger pizza is the way to go.  Same advice goes for my grand daughter as my grandson. He has to grow up with the burden of me being his Papa!

Edit: let me toss this debate point up for discussion-  Will Caliqs career arc be more "improved" by having a more robust "gender equality" program implemented in her company by HR... or more "enhanced" by finding an actual cure for Narcolepsy ?  :-) 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:33:53 PM by Capsu78 »

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2015, 08:47:10 PM »

Capsu78, crying "reverse discrimination" over one anecdote doesn't lessen the impact of systematic discrimination that happens to certain groups of people every single day.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

Zamboni,
Not sure where exactly I did... my debate point was simply that everybody gets to "be" whatever they are born into... Crying "reverse discrimination" to me is a way to try to get a bigger slice of the same pizza.  I coach all of my family that creating a bigger pizza is the way to go.  Same advice goes for my grand daughter as my grandson. He has to grow up with the burden of me being his Papa!

Edit: let me toss this debate point up for discussion-  Will Caliqs career arc be more "improved" by having a more robust "gender equality" program implemented in her company by HR... or more "enhanced" by finding an actual cure for Narcolepsy ?  :-)

It'd be most improved/enhanced by not being discriminated against (consciously or subconsciously) when I contact PI's to apply to grad school and post docs and then hiring committees for tenure track positions and then whoever decides if I make associate professor...I can't discover anything if I can't get into the right lab in the first place :/

Edit:  My point in this thread and in general was never to advocate for affirmative action type programs to promote gender equality; they might have a place and that decision is best left to people more educated and experienced in this subject than I.  My intent was/always is to try and get others to hopefully examine their personal biases (which are informed/influenced by societal biases) and hopefully actively try to reduce how those biases influence their future decisions.

You never answered my question about how you'd feel about your granddaughter (or grandson!) seeing a professor wear that shirt in a lab class?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:49:51 PM by caliq »

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2015, 09:17:42 PM »
Caliq,
Ok.  You sound like a person I would enjoy having healthy a good debate with over the dinner table with!  BTW, my name is Dave, and I am a victim of domestic abuse... Watching last nights PSA on the Grammy's I realized that all of those kicks on the shins by my wife can be  parleyed into a grievance complaint.

OK, let's get down to business... sounds like the "finding the cure"  path you are on might be heavily influenced by the academia industrial complex ... Are they the ones who you believe can really help those suffering from narcolepsy?

   
You never answered my question about how you'd feel about your granddaughter (or grandson!) seeing a professor wear that shirt in a lab class?


« Last Edit: Today at 08:49:51 PM by caliq »

OK- I think my granddaughter would view his shirt with the same fury you might view Vanilla Ice singing ice ice baby... or my parents saying  "David Bowie is a queer...why would you want to see him perform live?... The thoughts of my grandkids will have to some guy wearing some shirt have very little to do with the role of professors ( who won't exist) in their futures.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 09:43:20 PM by Capsu78 »

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2015, 09:36:30 PM »
Caliq,
Ok.  You sound like a person I would enjoy having healthy a good debate with over the dinner table with!  BTW, my name is Dave, and I am a victim of domestic abuse... Watching last nights PSA on the Grammy's I realized that all of those kicks on the shins by my wife can be  parleyed into a grievance complaint.

OK, let's get down to business... sounds like the "finding the cure"  path you are on might be heavily influenced by the academia industrial complex ... Are they the ones who you believe can really help those suffering from narcolepsy?   


Basically yes, because narcolepsy is under-diagnosed, relatively rare, and pretty neurologically complicated; it's not a cash cow for pharmaceutical companies.  There is some research being done in industry but not much; frankly there isn't much being done in academia either -- there are big centers for sleep research at Stanford and Harvard that have come out with some interesting stuff, but so far, other than those two groups, most the researchers I've found are overseas.  This is all based on reading through the primary literature and checking out their citations/authors, btw.   So, the priority would be academia because it does give you relatively more freedom to research what you want, at least once you make it past the PhD/post-doc phase.  Also, you can probably tell by the name of those two schools that I have fairly significant anxiety about actually being accepted...

There's been literally one drug developed specifically for narcolepsy and its a reformulation of the street drug GHB, with ridiculous side effects.  They add excessive amounts of salt to it, because it can be used as a date rape drug otherwise (colorless, tasteless liquid); and that's the extent of the 'reformulation.'  Otherwise, it's ADHD-med type stimulants and/or antidepressants.  Just as evidence of the failure of the pharmaceutical industry to serve this population. 

Annamal

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2015, 09:57:58 PM »
OK- I think my granddaughter would view his shirt with the same fury you might view Vanilla Ice singing ice ice baby... or my parents saying  "David Bowie is a queer...why would you want to see him perform live?... The thoughts of my grandkids will have to some guy wearing some shirt have very little to do with the role of professors ( who won't exist) in their futures.

Just a note, that is a really depressing thing for your parents to say.

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2015, 10:08:35 PM »
OK- I think my granddaughter would view his shirt with the same fury you might view Vanilla Ice singing ice ice baby... or my parents saying  "David Bowie is a queer...why would you want to see him perform live?... The thoughts of my grandkids will have to some guy wearing some shirt have very little to do with the role of professors ( who won't exist) in their futures.

Alright then, your "academic industrial complex" comment makes sense.  Since I fully plan to be a professor by the time your (apparently still pretty young) grandkids enter college, and you've just said my career won't exist...I think we're done here.  Have a nice day.

lizzie

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2015, 03:14:21 AM »
Caliq I just want to say I love your posts and you're awesome.

Quote
(I also love the irony that it was his female friend who custom made the shirt for him too)

What is ironic about this?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 03:40:46 AM by lizzie »

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2015, 01:41:35 PM »
Caliq I just want to say I love your posts and you're awesome.


Thanks :D

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2015, 02:13:55 PM »


Just a note, that is a really depressing thing for your parents to say.
[/quote]

Actually Annamal times were different and the WWII vets had a hard time processing David Bowie's makeup and fashion choices during his Ziggy Stardust days.  In fact, they probably had as much difficulty processing Ziggy then as I do today trying to fathom why anybody would even care what the Kardasians are wearing today.

BTW, the concert was great- even released an album from it "Live from the Tower Theater".  Panic in Detroit was his new release.

daymare

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2015, 03:40:59 PM »
Quote
Caliq I just want to say I love your posts and you're awesome.

^ I have to second this.

Annamal

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2015, 04:56:10 PM »


Just a note, that is a really depressing thing for your parents to say.

Actually Annamal times were different
[/quote]

Well yeah they were a lot harder on gay people for a start.

Still a depressing thing to say.

caliq

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2015, 07:26:41 PM »
The Scientista Foundation shared these links on my Facebook news feed just now:

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-and-clothing-at-work-2015-2#ixzz3ROkhzyaR
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/01/15/gender-gap-women-welcome-in-hard-working-fields-but-genius-fields-are-male-dominated-study-finds/
http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/are-successful-women-really-less-likable-than-successful-men/273926/
http://www.businessinsider.com/subtle-ways-women-treated-differently-work-2014-6

Just in case anyone's interested ;)

Also, thanks guys, even though I'm really not sure what exactly I said that was so awesome, lol

And +1 to you Annamal; just because times were different and homophobia was considered acceptable doesn't mean homophobics weren't assholes. 

Capsu78

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2015, 07:42:14 PM »


Just a note, that is a really depressing thing for your parents to say.

Actually Annamal times were different

Well yeah they were a lot harder on gay people for a start.

Still a depressing thing to say.
[/quote]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but in the early 70's, the "Q" word had not yet been co-opted and was largely defined and understood to be weird ...and DB probably smoked  "another F word" after the show.  And DB was married to a "third F word" at the time and another "third F word" one time supermodel for the last 23 years.  I hope I avoided all the "triggers" in this post.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:47:02 PM by Capsu78 »

frugalnacho

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2015, 08:29:50 PM »
Holy thread derailment batman. 

I briefly forgot what category this was posted in and thought it was going to be about acquiring some stocks/assets, and was going to encourage and congratulate the op.   I acquired some vtsax today.

11ducks

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Re: Admire, Aspire, Acquire
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2015, 04:57:29 AM »
Holy thread derailment batman. 

True that