A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius

[Jeremy E.]

Yes Sol, the pne does get most of its juice from hydro.  But I will remind you that in the lefty enviro eyes, and per state law it isn't "renewable".  As for solar - that only works if you park the car all day to charge and only drive at night.  Oh, and let's not forget the toxic pools of industrial chemicals all over China to make those solar cells.

 The point of this and the previous post being that a lot of electric car drivers think their cars are in fact "actual" zero emission vehicles.  They aren't.

If an all electric vehicle could satisfy my needs in a cost competitive manner I would get one.  But they can't.  I need a vehicle to go into the mountains on a regular basis. The Corolla goes where I need it to bringing the stuff I need cheaply.  Until someone figures out how to load 300-400 miles of energy in 5 minutes in an EV  they aren't for me.

what's pne? do you mean the pacific northwest? Hydroelectric is clearly renewable, anyone that says otherwise is an idiot. You can store solar power from solar panels in batteries and charge at night. The production of solar panels has some environmental impact that is an average of approximately 17% as bad as that of the environmental impact that coal has, and is constantly improving much faster than every other type of energy.

Of course they aren't zero emission vehicles, there's no such thing, but they are a heck of a lot closer to zero emissions than an ICE car.

Maybe electric cars aren't for you at this point in time, so because they don't fit your exact needs I guess that gives you a good reason to make up bullshit and bitch about them. Oh wait no it doesn't.

[dragoncar]

Except my panels and inverters, like all solar systems eligible for the state tax credit, are 100% manufactured in Washington state by companies that comply with all US environmental laws including chemical disposal. 

Wait, really?  100%?

[sol]

Except my panels and inverters, like all solar systems eligible for the state tax credit, are 100% manufactured in Washington state by companies that comply with all US environmental laws including chemical disposal. 

Wait, really?  100%?

That's a legal definition, so maybe you can construct an alternative interpretation.  The state certifies a handful of solar equipment manufacturing companies as "made in Washington" for tax rebate purposes but I doubt they track where the aluminum mines are for raw materials.

[MgoSam]

Except my panels and inverters, like all solar systems eligible for the state tax credit, are 100% manufactured in Washington state by companies that comply with all US environmental laws including chemical disposal. 

Wait, really?  100%?

That's a legal definition, so maybe you can construct an alternative interpretation.  The state certifies a handful of solar equipment manufacturing companies as "made in Washington" for tax rebate purposes but I doubt they track where the aluminum mines are for raw materials.

 "If you wish to make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe"? .
-Carl Sagan

[zephyr911]

"block a few throws......"

For a coal / nuclear / Nat gas powered car?  Yeah, right. Powered by mercury emissions, waste that will be around for tens of thousands of years or by fracking. "zero emission" isn't - it just moves the pollution from the tail pipe elsewhere.

Objections about coal/nuke/etc-powered cars generally ignore the back-end energy inputs for gasoline. By the time you pump a gallon of gas, the electricity, natural gas, gasoline, and other energy inputs required to extract, refine, transport, and pump it typically exceed 6kWh, enough to charge an EV for 20 miles of aggressive driving or 30+ hypermiling. Only under the most perfectly ideal conditions can any ICE, even a hybrid, overcome that disadvantage. And it's not even apples-to-apples yet, with immature, emerging EV tech up against fully mature ICE, at or near its theoretical limits already.

And, as long as we're being holistic, trends matter too: grid power is getting cleaner, and the extraction of oil and gas is getting less so, all the time. Net energy return on energy invested (EROI or EROEI) for those products has steadily fallen over the last century, and as it falls the emissions per unit of energy used go higher, so that 6kWh figure will keep rising. Meanwhile, nobody claims the rapidly proliferating forms of "alternative" power production are without their drawbacks, but they do objectively produce less pollution than the status quo.

[Travis]

"block a few throws......"

waste that will be around for tens of thousands of years

And doing nobody any harm while it sits there.  Meanwhile, burned coal and oil are getting in your lungs today, all day, every day.

[zephyr911]

Meanwhile, burned coal and oil are getting in your lungs today, all day, every day.

Related: studies also indicate relocating emissions from localized point sources (cars) to centralized plants (typically farther from population centers) does create a net positive effect on public health.

[libertarian4321]

Your comparison of the Tesla Model S to a Nissan Leaf is kind of like saying its cooler to date 11  2 dumpy girls than to date Emily Ratajkowski

Even if we choose to overlook how incredibly inappropriately sexist it is to compare women to cars, for just a moment, your argument would still be clearly invalid.  Models and non-models are both people, and their value as people is only determined in one tiny part by their appearance.  What if Emily Ratajkowski is a huge Hitler fan?  What if the two other girls are fantastic cooks and really into threesomes?

You know, if I was lucky enough to have a date with Emily, I really doubt I'd be getting into a deep discussion of politics of philosophy.  Or, at least, I hope not.  :)

As far as "fantastic cooks" is concerned, I can buy a great meal, no problem.  But I can't legally buy what Emily has to offer, so I'll pass on the ugly girls who can cook, even if they are "into threesomes."  Also, I'm not really sure a "threesome" with ugly girls is something I'd get all that excited about.

[libertarian4321]

I couldn't believe it when I read your post, it's not April 1st. What forum are we on???
Mustachians buy used cars, a used Tesla Model S is $70,000 and a used Leaf is $10,000. I would prefer to take the used Leaf and park $60,000 into VTSAX. The Leaf is not a POS, it's a fine electric car. It's not a luxury car, or else it wouldn't be mustachian. Yes it's not a huge car, but here's a post on how to help with that.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/
It's range is over 80 miles, it's rare for mustachians to live more than 40 miles from work. For vacations you can rent a car or if you have a 2 car family you could also have an internal combustion engine car. You can travel up the west coast on I5 with the Tesla, but if you are traveling anywhere else you are pretty much screwed, and even with the superchargers on I5 it's very annoying having to stop and charge your car for an hour rather than spend 5 minutes getting gas, so a gas car is still ideal for traveling.
Handling and acceleration of a Leaf are fine, you aren't buying a race car, most people with similar complaints like this I call consumerist suckas because they drive big trucks and expensive luxury cars, it goes the same for your complaint about the look of a Leaf, and mustachians prefer hatchbacks anyways.
As for your comment about safety, here is another post.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/
Lastly, here are some posts about an even better, safer, healthier and more mustachian way to get around.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/06/13/bicycling-the-safest-form-of-transportation/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/07/what-do-you-mean-you-dont-have-a-bike/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

I couldn't believe it when I read your post, it's not April 1st. What forum are we on???
Mustachians buy used cars,

I come here because it's an interesting web site with some good information and good forums.  It's not a religion for me, and I don't model my life 100% on MMM.

I was a frugal millionaire long before this website existed.   But I usually buy my cars new.   And now that we are multimillionaires, we buy nice cars for my wife (I drive a 14-year old vehicle).  Nothing crazy, she currently drives a 3-series BMW, which is a vehicle many here would consider extravagant, though we paid only a bit more than the cost of a laded Toyota Camry to buy it. 

And we are seriously considering a Tesla for her next car.  Though as I said, I think the Model S is a bit too large, we will likely wait for the Model 3, which should be about the size of her 3-series.  It will cost us about 1% of our net worth.

Did I mention it's a really cool car?

You can travel up the west coast on I5 with the Tesla, but if you are traveling anywhere else you are pretty much screwed, and even with the superchargers on I5 it's very annoying having to stop and charge your car for an hour rather than spend 5 minutes getting gas,

There is so much wrong with this, I barely know where to start.  Tesla has superchargers all over the damned country.  You could easily travel coast to coast on multiple different routes without paying a penny to do so using the free Tesla Superchargers.

Here is an illustration of the current Tesla Supercharger network, and more are being added all the time.  Note that this covers a whole Hell of a lot more than just portions of California.

https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

BTW, it only takes 20 minutes to charge from 0% to 50%, so it's not nearly as much an inconvenience as you think.  Perhaps you were confusing Tesla technology with the "old school" tech in a Nissan Leaf econo box?

You are right in that the Tesla is not for someone who is just starting out.  But for those of us who've been doing this for a while, and for whom the cost of a Tesla is a tiny fraction of our net worth, there are certainly worse things we could spend our money on.

I wonder if my wife is going to kick my ass when she sees me driving around town with Emily Ratajkowski in my Tesla?  :)

[zephyr911]

HERETIC! BLASPHEMER! GO TO YOUR ROOM! NO RICE AND BEANS FOR YOU!

[dragoncar]

Except my panels and inverters, like all solar systems eligible for the state tax credit, are 100% manufactured in Washington state by companies that comply with all US environmental laws including chemical disposal. 

Wait, really?  100%?

That's a legal definition, so maybe you can construct an alternative interpretation.  The state certifies a handful of solar equipment manufacturing companies as "made in Washington" for tax rebate purposes but I doubt they track where the aluminum mines are for raw materials.

"Made in Washington" is a regulated definition, but 100% is not, since "made in" typically requires less than 100% as you allude to

[Jeremy E.]

I couldn't believe it when I read your post, it's not April 1st. What forum are we on???
Mustachians buy used cars, a used Tesla Model S is $70,000 and a used Leaf is $10,000. I would prefer to take the used Leaf and park $60,000 into VTSAX. The Leaf is not a POS, it's a fine electric car. It's not a luxury car, or else it wouldn't be mustachian. Yes it's not a huge car, but here's a post on how to help with that.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/
It's range is over 80 miles, it's rare for mustachians to live more than 40 miles from work. For vacations you can rent a car or if you have a 2 car family you could also have an internal combustion engine car. You can travel up the west coast on I5 with the Tesla, but if you are traveling anywhere else you are pretty much screwed, and even with the superchargers on I5 it's very annoying having to stop and charge your car for an hour rather than spend 5 minutes getting gas, so a gas car is still ideal for traveling.
Handling and acceleration of a Leaf are fine, you aren't buying a race car, most people with similar complaints like this I call consumerist suckas because they drive big trucks and expensive luxury cars, it goes the same for your complaint about the look of a Leaf, and mustachians prefer hatchbacks anyways.
As for your comment about safety, here is another post.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/
Lastly, here are some posts about an even better, safer, healthier and more mustachian way to get around.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/06/13/bicycling-the-safest-form-of-transportation/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/07/what-do-you-mean-you-dont-have-a-bike/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

I couldn't believe it when I read your post, it's not April 1st. What forum are we on???
Mustachians buy used cars,

I come here because it's an interesting web site with some good information and good forums.  It's not a religion for me, and I don't model my life 100% on MMM.

I was a frugal millionaire long before this website existed.   But I usually buy my cars new.   And now that we are multimillionaires, we buy nice cars for my wife (I drive a 14-year old vehicle).  Nothing crazy, she currently drives a 3-series BMW, which is a vehicle many here would consider extravagant, though we paid only a bit more than the cost of a laded Toyota Camry to buy it. 

And we are seriously considering a Tesla for her next car.  Though as I said, I think the Model S is a bit too large, we will likely wait for the Model 3, which should be about the size of her 3-series.  It will cost us about 1% of our net worth.

Did I mention it's a really cool car?

You can travel up the west coast on I5 with the Tesla, but if you are traveling anywhere else you are pretty much screwed, and even with the superchargers on I5 it's very annoying having to stop and charge your car for an hour rather than spend 5 minutes getting gas,

There is so much wrong with this, I barely know where to start.  Tesla has superchargers all over the damned country.  You could easily travel coast to coast on multiple different routes without paying a penny to do so using the free Tesla Superchargers.

Here is an illustration of the current Tesla Supercharger network, and more are being added all the time.  Note that this covers a whole Hell of a lot more than just portions of California.

https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

BTW, it only takes 20 minutes to charge from 0% to 50%, so it's not nearly as much an inconvenience as you think.  Perhaps you were confusing Tesla technology with the "old school" tech in a Nissan Leaf econo box?

You are right in that the Tesla is not for someone who is just starting out.  But for those of us who've been doing this for a while, and for whom the cost of a Tesla is a tiny fraction of our net worth, there are certainly worse things we could spend our money on.

I wonder if my wife is going to kick my ass when she sees me driving around town with Emily Ratajkowski in my Tesla?  :)

I guess there are a few more superchargers out there than the last time I checked, but there are still less than 600 places with them in North America.  You can get to a lot of places in California and the 10 biggest cities in the U.S. but if you want to get to a city that is out of the range of the superchargers(most cities), you're still screwed. You're also screwed if you live in a city more than 300 miles away from a supercharger.

As for the amount of time it takes to charge them, few people will let there batteries drop to 0%, it's hard on lithium batteries and they won't last as long. Also a lot of the Superchargers are 200 miles apart, so you will want to charge your car up to at least 80% battery.

[Batastrophe]

My certified wealth manager (who's also my best friend) just bought a Tesla today and texted me the pix. Not going to lie, that car looks sweet!  My verbatim text back was, "You're welcome and looking forward to that 50% fee reduction in 2016!" 

[libertarian4321]

I couldn't believe it when I read your post, it's not April 1st. What forum are we on???
Mustachians buy used cars, a used Tesla Model S is $70,000 and a used Leaf is $10,000. I would prefer to take the used Leaf and park $60,000 into VTSAX. The Leaf is not a POS, it's a fine electric car. It's not a luxury car, or else it wouldn't be mustachian. Yes it's not a huge car, but here's a post on how to help with that.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/
It's range is over 80 miles, it's rare for mustachians to live more than 40 miles from work. For vacations you can rent a car or if you have a 2 car family you could also have an internal combustion engine car. You can travel up the west coast on I5 with the Tesla, but if you are traveling anywhere else you are pretty much screwed, and even with the superchargers on I5 it's very annoying having to stop and charge your car for an hour rather than spend 5 minutes getting gas, so a gas car is still ideal for traveling.
Handling and acceleration of a Leaf are fine, you aren't buying a race car, most people with similar complaints like this I call consumerist suckas because they drive big trucks and expensive luxury cars, it goes the same for your complaint about the look of a Leaf, and mustachians prefer hatchbacks anyways.
As for your comment about safety, here is another post.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/
Lastly, here are some posts about an even better, safer, healthier and more mustachian way to get around.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/06/13/bicycling-the-safest-form-of-transportation/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/07/what-do-you-mean-you-dont-have-a-bike/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/

I couldn't believe it when I read your post, it's not April 1st. What forum are we on???
Mustachians buy used cars,

I come here because it's an interesting web site with some good information and good forums.  It's not a religion for me, and I don't model my life 100% on MMM.

I was a frugal millionaire long before this website existed.   But I usually buy my cars new.   And now that we are multimillionaires, we buy nice cars for my wife (I drive a 14-year old vehicle).  Nothing crazy, she currently drives a 3-series BMW, which is a vehicle many here would consider extravagant, though we paid only a bit more than the cost of a laded Toyota Camry to buy it. 

And we are seriously considering a Tesla for her next car.  Though as I said, I think the Model S is a bit too large, we will likely wait for the Model 3, which should be about the size of her 3-series.  It will cost us about 1% of our net worth.

Did I mention it's a really cool car?

You can travel up the west coast on I5 with the Tesla, but if you are traveling anywhere else you are pretty much screwed, and even with the superchargers on I5 it's very annoying having to stop and charge your car for an hour rather than spend 5 minutes getting gas,

There is so much wrong with this, I barely know where to start.  Tesla has superchargers all over the damned country.  You could easily travel coast to coast on multiple different routes without paying a penny to do so using the free Tesla Superchargers.

Here is an illustration of the current Tesla Supercharger network, and more are being added all the time.  Note that this covers a whole Hell of a lot more than just portions of California.

https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

BTW, it only takes 20 minutes to charge from 0% to 50%, so it's not nearly as much an inconvenience as you think.  Perhaps you were confusing Tesla technology with the "old school" tech in a Nissan Leaf econo box?

You are right in that the Tesla is not for someone who is just starting out.  But for those of us who've been doing this for a while, and for whom the cost of a Tesla is a tiny fraction of our net worth, there are certainly worse things we could spend our money on.

I wonder if my wife is going to kick my ass when she sees me driving around town with Emily Ratajkowski in my Tesla?  :)

I guess there are a few more superchargers out there than the last time I checked, but there are still less than 600 places with them in North America.  You can get to a lot of places in California and the 10 biggest cities in the U.S. but if you want to get to a city that is out of the range of the superchargers(most cities), you're still screwed. You're also screwed if you live in a city more than 300 miles away from a supercharger.

As for the amount of time it takes to charge them, few people will let there batteries drop to 0%, it's hard on lithium batteries and they won't last as long. Also a lot of the Superchargers are 200 miles apart, so you will want to charge your car up to at least 80% battery.

They are building the Superchargers quickly, and have them in or near every major city in the USA, plus a whole lot of small ones.  They are now building them in Canada, too.

Plus, of course, you can also use the "low tech" chargers that Leaf owners (and others) use.

I also like the fact that the Superchargers use solar power. 

So you can drive your Tesla around the country forever, for free, with probably less environmental impact than I'd cause driving my truck across San Antonio.

My goal is to re-retire, buy a Tesla, and live in it for free forever :)

[sirdoug007]

What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.

The issue with this is that if you buy a 35mpg corolla, in 20 years it will be an unmustachian gas guzzling machine, and everyone will be driving 70mpg+ cars. It's the same with a Tesla, in 20 years electric cars will be so much more advanced that even the best electric cars today(teslas) will be obsolete compared to them.

What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.

But the beauty of the EV is that it requires no oil changes, no catalytic converters, no transmission, no ICE and their maintenance (timing belt/chains), no turbos, no starter..etc.

Is there a point in time where those little items add up to more than the price of the Tesla?

Also, electricity is an order of magnitude (or more) cheaper in terms of cost per mile.

The big question (at least for me) is how long will batteries last given how they are the major maintenance item (aside from suspension).

I'm not sure I buy how much more maintenance free a Tesla will be.  They have power controllers, door handle actuators, and other electronic doo-dads that ICE cars don't.  Based on my laptop batteries, the Tesla batteries will be an expensive maintenance item.  I agree EVs will require less maintenance, but that effect may be overstated in popular media.

It's the same confusion I feel about people who pay retail for clearly technologically inferior Apple products, because they value some "intangibles" that really just mean they've been suckered by advertising.

I have some apple products, and none of them were purchased for "intangibles."  Good UX is hardly an intangible benefit

The theory of the maintenace free electric car is looking like just a theory for now.

I would be very wary of buying a tesla out of warranty because of the drivetrain issues.

http://insideevs.com/real-imagined-tesla-model-s-drivetrain-defective/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jeremy E.]

In 15 years Tesla's will be superseded by electric cars that are better in every way, and they will be much cheaper. Electric Cars are advancing extremely fast. Buying a new Tesla instead of a used Leaf is equivalent to buying a new GTR instead of a used Corolla. Sure the GTR is badass and more girls will like it, but it's extremely unmustachian, do it if you want but don't try and convince us or yourself that it's mustachian.

[sol]

Sure the GTR is badass and more girls will like it, but it's extremely unmustachian, do it if you want but don't try and convince us or yourself that it's mustachian.

I humbly suggest that if you're the kind of guy who uses a car to pick up girls then you deserve the kind of girls that you will pick up.

[dragoncar]

Sure the GTR is badass and more girls will like it, but it's extremely unmustachian, do it if you want but don't try and convince us or yourself that it's mustachian.

I humbly suggest that if you're the kind of guy who uses a car to pick up girls then you deserve the kind of girls that you will pick up.

Slutty ones?

[Jeremy E.]

Sure the GTR is badass and more girls will like it, but it's extremely unmustachian, do it if you want but don't try and convince us or yourself that it's mustachian.

I humbly suggest that if you're the kind of guy who uses a car to pick up girls then you deserve the kind of girls that you will pick up.

I was referring to libertarians argument about Emily whatever

[Rollin]

Ahem.

At least in Cali, there ARE fat tax breaks for a Tesla, and a shit ton of other cars.  And yes, the tax payers of Cali DO in fact pay for them.  It looks like about $2500 is the give away to rich people who can afford a Tesla.

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligible-vehicles

And then there is the Federal tax credit (which is a dollar for dollar give away).

https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Plug-In-Electric-Vehicle-Credit-IRC-30-and-IRC-30D

For vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009, the credit is equal to $2,500 plus, for a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with at least 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, $417, plus an additional $417 for each kilowatt hour of battery capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The total amount of the credit allowed for a vehicle is limited to $7,500.

Per
https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/30D-New-Qualified-Plug-in-Electric-Drive-Motor-Vehicles--Tesla-Motors-Inc
Tesla's get another $7500 under this credit

So, poor bastards of Ohio, schlepping shit in the factory for $20 / hour, you're paying some rich Hollywood bastard $7500 to buy a luxury vehicle.  And the poor bastards of Cali are chipping in another $2500.

So don't say Tesla isn't sucking on the teat of the taxpayer - they are, indirectly, by getting the Govt to lower the price cost to the consumer of their vehicles by 7500 to 10k, which allows Tesla to increase their price, and every dollar of price increase is pure profit.  This is no different that a certain large airplane maker sucking at the teat of the taxpayer by getting the congress critters to reauthorize the Ex Im bank - let's 'em charge a higher price with the customer getting below market financing rates.

And MGO  in re the DoD and their budget bloat - that's a different topic.  Happy to discuss it, but in the context of luxury electric car makers being subsidized by the tax payer, it's off topic and irrelevant.

No subsidies for anyone, period.

Oh, and I STILL don't get the math either - I'm with Sol.  Cost of a Prius << Cost of a Tesla.

Not even $13 billion to the oil and gas industry (PER YEAR) that allows the gas cars to go drive around so cheaply, thereby subsidizing them too?

[Scandium]

Not even $13 billion to the oil and gas industry (PER YEAR) that allows the gas cars to go drive around so cheaply, thereby subsidizing them too?

Is that just direct subsidies? Remember we went to war in Iraq (twice) to secure oil ("the oil must flow.."). How many trillions did that cost again?

[sol]

Not even $13 billion to the oil and gas industry (PER YEAR) that allows the gas cars to go drive around so cheaply, thereby subsidizing them too?

What about the agricultural subsidies for growing the majority of the country's corn that is used to produce ethanol that only gasoline powered cars can use?  That was another $6billion per year literally up in smoke.

What about the $14billion per year in foreign tax credits to oil companies that pump oil overseas?  That's a subsidy that isn't technically counted in the oil and gas subsidy total, but nevertheless goes to support carbon burning and not renewables.

And don't even get me started on the costs the government bears for cleaning up the pollution caused by carbon extraction and burning.  Those dwarf the direct subsidies.

But this whole subsidy discussion is ridiculous anyway.  The US government spends vast amounts of money to prop up oil company profits because oil companies are huge employers and a major part of the economy.  It spends less than half as much on renewables because renewables don't employ as many people yet.  It has nothing to do with the environment, and everything to do with economics. 

The American government exists for the sole purpose of perpetuating capitalism.  Don't fool yourself into thinking there's a moral or ethical component of these energy subsidy decisions.

we went to war in Iraq (twice) to secure oil ("the oil must flow.."). How many trillions did that cost again?

I see your point, but once again the distinction needs to be made between spending for oil and spending to protect economic prosperity.  In that case, like so many others, those interests just happen to align.

Eventually, renewable energy will be the path to economic prosperity and then the government will start wars for rare earth elements to put in solar panels and giant magnets for fusion reactors.  The time of carbon will pass.

[Scandium]

Eventually, renewable energy will be the path to economic prosperity and then the government will start wars for rare earth elements to put in solar panels and giant magnets for fusion factors.  The time of carbon will pass.

I look forward to the Great Magnet War of 2043. Sounds cool. Also hoping for a decent Space War.

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

Not even $13 billion to the oil and gas industry (PER YEAR) that allows the gas cars to go drive around so cheaply, thereby subsidizing them too?

Is that just direct subsidies? Remember we went to war in Iraq (twice) to secure oil ("the oil must flow.."). How many trillions did that cost again?

If only the war in Iraq (or Libya or Afghanistan at this point) had so coherent a mission as "secure the oil."

[libertarian4321]

In 15 years Tesla's will be superseded by electric cars that are better in every way, and they will be much cheaper. Electric Cars are advancing extremely fast. Buying a new Tesla instead of a used Leaf is equivalent to buying a new GTR instead of a used Corolla. Sure the GTR is badass and more girls will like it, but it's extremely unmustachian, do it if you want but don't try and convince us or yourself that it's mustachian.

I don't worship the MMM guy as if he were a God, nor do I hang on his every word as Gospel.

I get it, the "mustachian" thing would be to walk everywhere in a used pair of flip flops. 

As I said earlier, my point wasn't to "out MMM" everyone:

I come here because it's an interesting web site with some good information and good forums.  It's not a religion for me, and I don't model my life 100% on MMM.

And btw, I still would not buy a Leaf, used or new.  It's far too limited in it's capability.

[tobitonic]

In 15 years Tesla's will be superseded by electric cars that are better in every way, and they will be much cheaper. Electric Cars are advancing extremely fast. Buying a new Tesla instead of a used Leaf is equivalent to buying a new GTR instead of a used Corolla. Sure the GTR is badass and more girls will like it, but it's extremely unmustachian, do it if you want but don't try and convince us or yourself that it's mustachian.

1. None of us know that. There are a number of vehicles on the road that are 15 years old that I'd put my family in before certain 2016 models (e.g., a 2002 E-Class over a 2016 ForTwo).

2. There will always be something newer 15 years from now; that in itself isn't a good reason to wait for anything.

3. Not everyone here is in lockstep with MMM. I disagree with a lot of things he says, particularly when it comes to car purchasing decisions. Best to figure out your own path.

4. Why stop with the used Leaf comparison? It would be far more mustachian to buy a regular subcompact and convert it to electric only, or better yet, just bike or walk! There's always something less (or more) you could be doing, and it's easy to lose sight of that when worshipping one sacred cow over another.

[obstinate]

4. Why stop with the used Leaf comparison? It would be far more mustachian to buy a regular subcompact and convert it to electric only, or better yet, just bike or walk! There's always something less (or more) you could be doing, and it's easy to lose sight of that when worshipping one sacred cow over another.

You're not going to accomplish that for significantly less than what used Leafs cost on the market today.

[zephyr911]

True... last I checked, your typical EV conversion costs more than a brand new subcompact. Sucks paying retail for things like motors and batteries.

Imagine the howls and facepunches if I finance a CPO Model S and in the process drop my SR to only 67%... an actual possibility this year. Conviction is great, but dogmatism is so unbecoming on Mustachians.

[sol]

You're not going to accomplish that for significantly less than what used Leafs cost on the market today.
[/quote]

Yea, I saw one go for $8500 a few weeks ago with only 16,000 miles on it.  You'd be hard pressed to find any other three year old cars for that price with that kind of mileage. 

The tax incentives on technologically superior new models have just crushed the resale price for used Leafs.  Very few other cars sell for 25% of MSRP in less than five years.

[zephyr911]

Yea, I saw one go for $8500 a few weeks ago with only 16,000 miles on it.  You'd be hard pressed to find any other three year old cars for that price with that kind of mileage. 

The tax incentives on technologically superior new models have just crushed the resale price for used Leafs.  Very few other cars sell for 25% of MSRP in less than five years.

They really are undervalued for what they do. If my driving needs were only slightly different, I'd have one.

[tobitonic]

Yea, I saw one go for $8500 a few weeks ago with only 16,000 miles on it.  You'd be hard pressed to find any other three year old cars for that price with that kind of mileage. 

The tax incentives on technologically superior new models have just crushed the resale price for used Leafs.  Very few other cars sell for 25% of MSRP in less than five years.

They really are undervalued for what they do. If my driving needs were only slightly different, I'd have one.

Completely agree. My commute is ~25 miles RT and could easily be covered by a Leaf. I like my van more (it's pretty much my dream vehicle), but if I were looking for a ready-to-run electric vehicle for under 10k, the Leaf would easily be my choice.

[Jeremy E.]

In 15 years Tesla's will be superseded by electric cars that are better in every way, and they will be much cheaper. Electric Cars are advancing extremely fast. Buying a new Tesla instead of a used Leaf is equivalent to buying a new GTR instead of a used Corolla. Sure the GTR is badass and more girls will like it, but it's extremely unmustachian, do it if you want but don't try and convince us or yourself that it's mustachian.

1. None of us know that. There are a number of vehicles on the road that are 15 years old that I'd put my family in before certain 2016 models (e.g., a 2002 E-Class over a 2016 ForTwo).

2. There will always be something newer 15 years from now; that in itself isn't a good reason to wait for anything.

3. Not everyone here is in lockstep with MMM. I disagree with a lot of things he says, particularly when it comes to car purchasing decisions. Best to figure out your own path.

4. Why stop with the used Leaf comparison? It would be far more mustachian to buy a regular subcompact and convert it to electric only, or better yet, just bike or walk! There's always something less (or more) you could be doing, and it's easy to lose sight of that when worshipping one sacred cow over another.

1. I do know that electric cars will advance a lot in the next 15 years, a lot of it will probably be advancements from Tesla. Internal Combustion Engines haven't changed significantly in the last 15 years, electric cars will improve significantly in the next 15 years.
2. I didn't say it's a good reason to wait, I said it's a bad reason to spend a premium price for a Tesla because it will last your lifetime, as you could buy a cheaper option now, and another cheaper option later, save tons of money, and have a modern car all the while.
3. As far as I know, his recommendation on car purchasing decisions is to buy used. You can choose a different method, but you will probably spend much more, I don't think incoming readers should have to figure out their own path without a suggestion, as I think buying new wastes a good chunk of money, helping them avoid that is smart.
4. I don't think it would be far more mustachian to buy a regular subcompact and convert it to electric only, and without a lot of knowledge on the subject, you will probably create a shitty/inefficient electric car. Comparing cars to bikes and walking is comparing apples to oranges, t's cheaper, hence why I have no car, but everyone already knows that walking or biking is cheaper so I see no reason to point that out.

[libertarian4321]

The heck with the Tesla and the Prius.

This is the new king of enviro friendly low cost vehicles- solar electric powered:

www.organictransit.org

[dragoncar]

The heck with the Tesla and the Prius.

This is the new king of enviro friendly low cost vehicles- solar electric powered:

www.organictransit.org

Just buy a used golf cart

[obstinate]

The heck with the Tesla and the Prius.

This is the new king of enviro friendly low cost vehicles- solar electric powered:

www.organictransit.org

"low-cost"! My Prius cost barely more than that thing.