Author Topic: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius  (Read 20776 times)

Gyosho

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A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« on: December 17, 2015, 08:43:09 AM »
I live in the Bay Area, and have been noting with alarm the increase in the number of Teslas on the streets. I was talking about this last night with a friend, and she told me that a guy in her neighborhood said, "With all the tax breaks, a Tesla is actually cheaper than a Prius".

LOL

fa

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2015, 08:49:48 AM »
"With all the tax breaks, a Tesla is actually cheaper than a Prius".

Cheaper if you don't consider the taxes you pay for the Tesla gizmo.  Given the inefficiency of government, I imagine that is more like a $200,000 car when it is all said and done.  I wish I could laugh at the sheer stupidity, but unfortunately I have to work too much to pay the taxes for all that waste and idocy.

zephyr911

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2015, 11:28:33 AM »
"With all the tax breaks, a Tesla is actually cheaper than a Prius".

Cheaper if you don't consider the taxes you pay for the Tesla gizmo.  Given the inefficiency of government, I imagine that is more like a $200,000 car when it is all said and done.  I wish I could laugh at the sheer stupidity, but unfortunately I have to work too much to pay the taxes for all that waste and idocy.
The only govt money Tesla got was a low-interest loan that they paid back ahead of schedule, mostly to silence misguided critics.

I see that approach failed.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 11:30:38 AM by zephyr911 »

zephyr911

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2015, 11:30:12 AM »
I live in the Bay Area, and have been noting with alarm the increase in the number of Teslas on the streets. I was talking about this last night with a friend, and she told me that a guy in her neighborhood said, "With all the tax breaks, a Tesla is actually cheaper than a Prius".

LOL
Ever wonder why Cali is stereotyped as a den of clueless liberalism?
I wonder if the person in question is so rich that they just don't have to care about five-figure math failures....

MgoSam

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2015, 11:33:17 AM »
"With all the tax breaks, a Tesla is actually cheaper than a Prius".

Cheaper if you don't consider the taxes you pay for the Tesla gizmo.  Given the inefficiency of government, I imagine that is more like a $200,000 car when it is all said and done.  I wish I could laugh at the sheer stupidity, but unfortunately I have to work too much to pay the taxes for all that waste and idocy.
The only govt money Tesla got was a low-interest loan that they paid back ahead of schedule, mostly to silence misguided critics.

I see that approach failed....

Well you can take a horse to water....

It's insane how often debunked or bullshit points are repeated as if they are gospel, but it is the internet age.

I find it interesting that when people complain about government expenditure they seem to never talk about our bloated military budget. Apparently they are happy to work too hard to pay for equipment that the military doesn't even want.

zephyr911

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2015, 11:35:21 AM »
I find it interesting that when people complain about government expenditure they seem to never talk about our bloated military budget. Apparently they are happy to work too hard to pay for equipment that the military doesn't even want.
Whoa there! That's my bread and butter you're f**kin' with! ;)

sol

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2015, 11:46:49 AM »
If someone can please explain to me how a tesla costs less than a prius, I will consider buying one tomorrow.  I'm in the market for an electric car anyway, but the tesla doesn't make much sense when you can get a used Nissan leaf with only 15,000 miles for less than $10k.

I've seen early teslas for sale around $50k.  That amount of cheddar will buy an '06 BMW M5 with 500hp with enough left over for a lifetime of gas, which is probably a superior vehicle in most every way.  Tesla's target market confuses me.

MgoSam

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2015, 11:49:16 AM »
If someone can please explain to me how a tesla costs less than a prius, I will consider buying one tomorrow. 

I too would be interested in this as well, though I likely will hold off as my Camry has only 150,000 miles. I can't wait for their Model 3 to come out. After my Camry is done, I hope that Tesla has affordable sedans available.

dragoncar

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2015, 01:07:50 PM »
If someone can please explain to me how a tesla costs less than a prius, I will consider buying one tomorrow.  I'm in the market for an electric car anyway, but the tesla doesn't make much sense when you can get a used Nissan leaf with only 15,000 miles for less than $10k.

I've seen early teslas for sale around $50k.  That amount of cheddar will buy an '06 BMW M5 with 500hp with enough left over for a lifetime of gas, which is probably a superior vehicle in most every way.  Tesla's target market confuses me.

Please, those cars have door handles

No Name Guy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2015, 01:25:00 PM »
Ahem.

At least in Cali, there ARE fat tax breaks for a Tesla, and a shit ton of other cars.  And yes, the tax payers of Cali DO in fact pay for them.  It looks like about $2500 is the give away to rich people who can afford a Tesla.

https://cleanvehiclerebate.org/eng/eligible-vehicles

And then there is the Federal tax credit (which is a dollar for dollar give away).

https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Plug-In-Electric-Vehicle-Credit-IRC-30-and-IRC-30D

Quote
For vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009, the credit is equal to $2,500 plus, for a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a battery with at least 5 kilowatt hours of capacity, $417, plus an additional $417 for each kilowatt hour of battery capacity in excess of 5 kilowatt hours. The total amount of the credit allowed for a vehicle is limited to $7,500.

Per
https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/30D-New-Qualified-Plug-in-Electric-Drive-Motor-Vehicles--Tesla-Motors-Inc
Tesla's get another $7500 under this credit

So, poor bastards of Ohio, schlepping shit in the factory for $20 / hour, you're paying some rich Hollywood bastard $7500 to buy a luxury vehicle.  And the poor bastards of Cali are chipping in another $2500.

So don't say Tesla isn't sucking on the teat of the taxpayer - they are, indirectly, by getting the Govt to lower the price cost to the consumer of their vehicles by 7500 to 10k, which allows Tesla to increase their price, and every dollar of price increase is pure profit.  This is no different that a certain large airplane maker sucking at the teat of the taxpayer by getting the congress critters to reauthorize the Ex Im bank - let's 'em charge a higher price with the customer getting below market financing rates.

And MGO  in re the DoD and their budget bloat - that's a different topic.  Happy to discuss it, but in the context of luxury electric car makers being subsidized by the tax payer, it's off topic and irrelevant.

No subsidies for anyone, period.

Oh, and I STILL don't get the math either - I'm with Sol.  Cost of a Prius << Cost of a Tesla.

sol

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2015, 01:58:34 PM »
No subsidies for anyone, period.

You have to be careful with this one.  The federal government's has been subsidizing oil and gas extraction for generations, in sums that far exceed anything yet devoted to renewables.  It still does.

So if you're really in favor of ending subsidies, you might first consider throwing a roughly equal amount towards renewables as has already been spent on carbon extraction.  Once we get to parity on that front, I'll support reducing subsidies for everyone.

On the plus side, subsidies for renewables are at least partially shared with end users, while carbon subsidies are/were almost exclusively corporate payouts and tax breaks.  Imagine a world in which gas subsidies went to people instead of Exxon Mobil: gas costs rise by a dollar per gallon but the government cuts you a check based on the number of miles you drive.  We'd all be driving gas sippers inside of a year.

brooklynguy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2015, 01:59:29 PM »
Tesla's target market confuses me.

Tesla's target market for its automobiles that are currently in production consists of people for whom cost is no object.  Its business plan was (and is) to develop a high-priced, low-volume car for the super rich, in order to fund the development of a mid-priced, mid-volume car for the pretty rich, in order to fund the development of a low-priced, high-volume car for the masses (see WBW: How Tesla Will Change the World).

Jeremy E.

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2015, 02:21:56 PM »
If someone can please explain to me how a tesla costs less than a prius, I will consider buying one tomorrow.  I'm in the market for an electric car anyway, but the tesla doesn't make much sense when you can get a used Nissan leaf with only 15,000 miles for less than $10k.

I've seen early teslas for sale around $50k.  That amount of cheddar will buy an '06 BMW M5 with 500hp with enough left over for a lifetime of gas, which is probably a superior vehicle in most every way.  Tesla's target market confuses me.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla_model_s
Some ways in which a Tesla could be considered better than a BMW, I think Teslas are BADASS. That being said, I can't even justify the price of a car, let alone a super expensive luxury car, so I'll just continue to ride my bike everywhere

sol

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2015, 03:23:10 PM »
Tesla's target market for its automobiles that are currently in production consists of people for whom cost is no object.  Its business plan was (and is) to develop a high-priced, low-volume car for the super rich, in order to fund the development of a mid-priced, mid-volume car for the pretty rich, in order to fund the development of a low-priced, high-volume car for the masses (see WBW: How Tesla Will Change the World).

Yes, I'm aware of their business plan.  What I don't get is why anyone would actually buy one of their fancy low volume cars, when there are better alternatives out there.  It's the same confusion I feel about people who pay retail for clearly technologically inferior Apple products, because they value some "intangibles" that really just mean they've been suckered by advertising.

I don't get why people but luxury goods when the cost to value ratio is so skewed.  Every new car has the same problem.  I don't understand conspicuous consumption.  You're just throwing away your hard earned money for no good reason, people.

The tesla model S is a cool car, don't get me wrong.  But it's not cooler than eleven Nissan leafs, (or two leafs, a gixxer, a suburban, and $25,000 of leftover cash).

brooklynguy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2015, 03:51:49 PM »
Yes, I'm aware of their business plan.  What I don't get is why anyone would actually buy one of their fancy low volume cars, when there are better alternatives out there.

Ah.

Quote
I don't get why people but luxury goods when the cost to value ratio is so skewed.

Because not everyone has consciously overcome their combination of biologically-hard-wired and culturally-transmitted irrationality and adopted a rational cost-benefit-analysis-driven approach to decision-making to the same extent that we have.

That's why we're here and they're there.

fa

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2015, 03:57:56 PM »
"With all the tax breaks, a Tesla is actually cheaper than a Prius".

Cheaper if you don't consider the taxes you pay for the Tesla gizmo.  Given the inefficiency of government, I imagine that is more like a $200,000 car when it is all said and done.  I wish I could laugh at the sheer stupidity, but unfortunately I have to work too much to pay the taxes for all that waste and idocy.
The only govt money Tesla got was a low-interest loan that they paid back ahead of schedule, mostly to silence misguided critics.

I see that approach failed....

Well you can take a horse to water....

It's insane how often debunked or bullshit points are repeated as if they are gospel, but it is the internet age.

I find it interesting that when people complain about government expenditure they seem to never talk about our bloated military budget. Apparently they are happy to work too hard to pay for equipment that the military doesn't even want.

Count me in to cut out Government waste, whether subsidies for the "right industries", well connected corporations, or to cut waste out of the military.  Put them all on the chopping block!  I don't have sacred cows.  Since paying taxes is not all that voluntary, I hate to see tax money wasted in ALL corners of the government budget.  See, here is another myth debunked!

Jeremy E.

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2015, 04:13:20 PM »
"With all the tax breaks, a Tesla is actually cheaper than a Prius".

Cheaper if you don't consider the taxes you pay for the Tesla gizmo.  Given the inefficiency of government, I imagine that is more like a $200,000 car when it is all said and done.  I wish I could laugh at the sheer stupidity, but unfortunately I have to work too much to pay the taxes for all that waste and idocy.
The only govt money Tesla got was a low-interest loan that they paid back ahead of schedule, mostly to silence misguided critics.

I see that approach failed....

Well you can take a horse to water....

It's insane how often debunked or bullshit points are repeated as if they are gospel, but it is the internet age.

I find it interesting that when people complain about government expenditure they seem to never talk about our bloated military budget. Apparently they are happy to work too hard to pay for equipment that the military doesn't even want.

Count me in to cut out Government waste, whether subsidies for the "right industries", well connected corporations, or to cut waste out of the military.  Put them all on the chopping block!  I don't have sacred cows.  Since paying taxes is not all that voluntary, I hate to see tax money wasted in ALL corners of the government budget.  See, here is another myth debunked!
I agree so much, in my opinion the U.S. is closer to socialism than capitalism, and I would prefer it to be a capitalist nation. I would be okay if there was a tax on messing up the environment (like using oil, gas, not recycling, etc. But I think you tax the bad things directly so only the people using the bad things pay the price, rather than subsidizing the good things. I still think it's the greatest country in the world though. I'm hoping a miracle happens and Rand Paul becomes president and somehow gets the budget balanced with congress passing his suggestions, but that's a topic for a different thread. Back on topic, Leafs are awesome, they even made a Leaf van(not yet available in U.S.).
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 04:49:33 PM by Jeremy E. »

mtn

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2015, 04:24:22 PM »

I've seen early teslas for sale around $50k.  That amount of cheddar will buy an '06 BMW M5 with 500hp with enough left over for a lifetime of gas, which is probably a superior vehicle in most every way.

I wouldn't be too sure on that front--taking out the initial buy-in, electricity cost, and gas, the M5 is going to cost you a LOT more in maintenance. Performance edge goes to the BMW, (what, 4 seconds to sixty vs 6?), but the Tesla still does 1/4 mile in 14 seconds. Tesla is a bit bigger, about halfway between the 7 series and the 5 series--call that a win-win and lose-lose. Handling I'd expect the Bimmer to be better, but I've never driven a Tesla while I'm a BMW fanboi.




acanthurus

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2015, 09:53:07 PM »
The natural gas industry thanks those of you buying Teslas.

Guses

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2015, 09:30:30 AM »
What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

No Name Guy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2015, 09:39:36 AM »
You have to be careful with this one.  The federal government's has been subsidizing oil and gas extraction for generations, in sums that far exceed anything yet devoted to renewables.  It still does.

So if you're really in favor of ending subsidies, you might first consider throwing a roughly equal amount towards renewables as has already been spent on carbon extraction.  Once we get to parity on that front, I'll support reducing subsidies for everyone.

On the plus side, subsidies for renewables are at least partially shared with end users, while carbon subsidies are/were almost exclusively corporate payouts and tax breaks.  Imagine a world in which gas subsidies went to people instead of Exxon Mobil: gas costs rise by a dollar per gallon but the government cuts you a check based on the number of miles you drive.  We'd all be driving gas sippers inside of a year.

I'd ask that you reconsider this view Sol.

What you're proposing is to layer yet another mistake fix on top of the first mistake.  Then there will yet another mistake fix to fix that, and so on, and so on.

Better to undo the original mistake (subsidies to oil / gas / coal) than to pile on more errors.  As should be obvious to anyone and everyone, once a subsidy is started it's damn near impossible to get rid of.  So why create more of these monsters that have to be slain later?

And as for subsidies for individuals?  No.  Yet another mistake that the powerful will be quick to exploit to the disadvantage of the little guy n gal. 

No subsidies for ANYONE, period.

mtn

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2015, 09:45:34 AM »
What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.

zephyr911

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2015, 10:18:51 AM »
What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?
They warranty the whole drivetrain for 8 years and unlimited miles. Their goal is to make motors that last a million, but they're not really there yet.
It's definitely much simpler mechanically than an ICE engine, though there are specific components that break too easily and are still being refined. End state EV tech will be much more reliable than ICE, once it's mature. Present day, still hit or miss.

Jeremy E.

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2015, 10:43:38 AM »
What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.
The issue with this is that if you buy a 35mpg corolla, in 20 years it will be an unmustachian gas guzzling machine, and everyone will be driving 70mpg+ cars. It's the same with a Tesla, in 20 years electric cars will be so much more advanced that even the best electric cars today(teslas) will be obsolete compared to them.

MgoSam

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2015, 10:46:59 AM »
It's the same with a Tesla, in 20 years electric cars will be so much more advanced that even the best electric cars today(teslas) will be obsolete compared to them.

That's a good point. The people that I know that currently own a Tesla are people with a ton of money. Even if their car is still working fine, I can imagine them trading their models in every so often. Actually I take that back, I'm certain that they will, as they already have been doing so.

sol

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2015, 10:50:38 AM »
It's the same with a Tesla, in 20 years electric cars will be so much more advanced that even the best electric cars today(teslas) will be obsolete compared to them.

Lots of people still drive ancient cars, in some cases precisely because the technology is outdated compared to modern vehicles.  They're usually cars that were very top-end when new, and the tesla might qualify.

Guses

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2015, 10:51:37 AM »
What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.
The issue with this is that if you buy a 35mpg corolla, in 20 years it will be an unmustachian gas guzzling machine, and everyone will be driving 70mpg+ cars. It's the same with a Tesla, in 20 years electric cars will be so much more advanced that even the best electric cars today(teslas) will be obsolete compared to them.

What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.

But the beauty of the EV is that it requires no oil changes, no catalytic converters, no transmission, no ICE and their maintenance (timing belt/chains), no turbos, no starter..etc.

Is there a point in time where those little items add up to more than the price of the Tesla?

Also, electricity is an order of magnitude (or more) cheaper in terms of cost per mile.

The big question (at least for me) is how long will batteries last given how they are the major maintenance item (aside from suspension).

Jeremy E.

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2015, 10:52:18 AM »
It's the same with a Tesla, in 20 years electric cars will be so much more advanced that even the best electric cars today(teslas) will be obsolete compared to them.

Lots of people still drive ancient cars, in some cases precisely because the technology is outdated compared to modern vehicles.  They're usually cars that were very top-end when new, and the tesla might qualify.
You are correct, lots of people do, but not a large percentage, that's probably 1% which is almost irrelevant

dragoncar

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2015, 11:33:26 AM »
What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.
The issue with this is that if you buy a 35mpg corolla, in 20 years it will be an unmustachian gas guzzling machine, and everyone will be driving 70mpg+ cars. It's the same with a Tesla, in 20 years electric cars will be so much more advanced that even the best electric cars today(teslas) will be obsolete compared to them.

What do we know about Tesla longevity? Anybody has links to articles on that subject?

In theory, the electric motor could go on for 1,000,000+ miles right?

If you consider the Tesla a BYFL item, maybe it makes sense?

In theory, yeah. That being said, in theory our Corolla is a Buy it for life item as well, just with a few maintenance items--admittedly more. Short of rust, I don't see the thing dying. There are cabs that regularly take Crown Vics and Prius's past 500 thousand miles--close enough to call it for life. So I don't know that I'd say it makes sense, because people will get tired of it long before it hits the life time and get a new one.

Obviously there are the exceptions--my dads friend who bought a Mercedes S class diesel new, and when it hit 300k miles she had it repainted--but I suspect that is the exception of the rule.

But the beauty of the EV is that it requires no oil changes, no catalytic converters, no transmission, no ICE and their maintenance (timing belt/chains), no turbos, no starter..etc.

Is there a point in time where those little items add up to more than the price of the Tesla?

Also, electricity is an order of magnitude (or more) cheaper in terms of cost per mile.

The big question (at least for me) is how long will batteries last given how they are the major maintenance item (aside from suspension).

I'm not sure I buy how much more maintenance free a Tesla will be.  They have power controllers, door handle actuators, and other electronic doo-dads that ICE cars don't.  Based on my laptop batteries, the Tesla batteries will be an expensive maintenance item.  I agree EVs will require less maintenance, but that effect may be overstated in popular media.

It's the same confusion I feel about people who pay retail for clearly technologically inferior Apple products, because they value some "intangibles" that really just mean they've been suckered by advertising.


I have some apple products, and none of them were purchased for "intangibles."  Good UX is hardly an intangible benefit

nixjasr

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2015, 11:54:53 AM »
Maybe they're counting on those free Tesla charging stations around the country to make up the difference vs. charging where you have to pay for the electricity. If you drove the thing about 50,000 miles per day, maybe it would even out in a decade or so.
Of course, that would require traveling at over 2,000 miles per hour without ever stopping, so they must be talking about Musk's hyperloop???

sol

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2015, 12:21:35 PM »
Can anyone attempt to relay even the faintest idea of how a Tesla could be considered cheaper than a Prius?  I would love to be convinced.

The most expensive version of any brand new prius (the 2015 loaded plug-in hybrid V) costs $35k.  The cheapest possible tesla is a used 2013 base model 60, which you might find for $50k if it's a little beat up, and which has roughly one third the range of the prius.

Even if you try to account for operating costs of driving them both a very unmustachian 15k for ten years each, and assume equal maintenance costs, all charging costs would have to totally free for a decade and gas would have to rise to $3.92/gallon for all of those miles before you even break even vs the 42mpg prius, assuming you never drive the prius in all electric mode.

So I can't make it work.  Even trying to cheat the math I can't make it work.

And of course we must not forget those $10k Nissan leafs that are all over craigslist right now.  You could buy three of those for less than the cost of the prius, and still not have any gas costs.

Travis

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2015, 12:26:10 PM »
Can anyone attempt to relay even the faintest idea of how a Tesla could be considered cheaper than a Prius?  I would love to be convinced.

The most expensive version of any brand new prius (the 2015 loaded plug-in hybrid V) costs $35k.  The cheapest possible tesla is a used 2013 base model 60, which you might find for $50k if it's a little beat up, and which has roughly one third the range of the prius.

Even if you try to account for operating costs of driving them both a very unmustachian 15k for ten years each, and assume equal maintenance costs, all charging costs would have to totally free for a decade and gas would have to rise to $3.92/gallon for all of those miles before you even break even vs the 42mpg prius, assuming you never drive the prius in all electric mode.

So I can't make it work.  Even trying to cheat the math I can't make it work.

And of course we must not forget those $10k Nissan leafs that are all over craigslist right now.  You could buy three of those for less than the cost of the prius, and still not have any gas costs.

What is the price point for the more consumer-friendly Tesla model that is about to come out?  Do the numbers look any better then? Even with the most generous tax breaks a current Tesla costs more than a Prius, though I can see someone just comparing operating costs and ignoring initial sticker price and long term maintenance.

mtn

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2015, 12:28:23 PM »
Can anyone attempt to relay even the faintest idea of how a Tesla could be considered cheaper than a Prius?  I would love to be convinced.

The most expensive version of any brand new prius (the 2015 loaded plug-in hybrid V) costs $35k.  The cheapest possible tesla is a used 2013 base model 60, which you might find for $50k if it's a little beat up, and which has roughly one third the range of the prius.

Even if you try to account for operating costs of driving them both a very unmustachian 15k for ten years each, and assume equal maintenance costs, all charging costs would have to totally free for a decade and gas would have to rise to $3.92/gallon for all of those miles before you even break even vs the 42mpg prius, assuming you never drive the prius in all electric mode.

So I can't make it work.  Even trying to cheat the math I can't make it work.

And of course we must not forget those $10k Nissan leafs that are all over craigslist right now.  You could buy three of those for less than the cost of the prius, and still not have any gas costs.

I don't think you can get it to work. It isn't cheaper than a Prius.

Maybe if you took it at 30k miles a  year? I know of some salesmen who put that on their vehicles every year.

beltim

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2015, 12:39:24 PM »
Also, electricity is an order of magnitude (or more) cheaper in terms of cost per mile.

Erm, no.  Not even close.  At least not if you're in the US. Updating the math from two previous threads on the subject with the current average US gasoline price, the numbers are:
Electric car: 4.1 cents per mile
Gasoline for a Prius: 4.0 cents per mile

That's based on current averages and the margin of error is bigger than the difference between the two, so I'm not comfortable saying a Prius is cheaper per mile than a Tesla, but at current prices there just isn't a significant difference, let alone an order of magnitude difference that you claimed.

brooklynguy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2015, 12:41:07 PM »
Can anyone attempt to relay even the faintest idea of how a Tesla could be considered cheaper than a Prius? 

From Tesla's website:

Quote from: teslamotors.com
Many states also offer non-cash incentives, such as carpool lane access in California and free municipal parking.

(emphasis added)

So just add to your skewed math a conservative average savings on parking costs of $5 per day for those ten years and, whammo, the Tesla comes out ahead, without even factoring in any other operating cost savings!

Jeremy E.

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2015, 01:15:55 PM »
Can anyone attempt to relay even the faintest idea of how a Tesla could be considered cheaper than a Prius? 

From Tesla's website:

Quote from: teslamotors.com
Many states also offer non-cash incentives, such as carpool lane access in California and free municipal parking.

(emphasis added)

So just add to your skewed math a conservative average savings on parking costs of $5 per day for those ten years and, whammo, the Tesla comes out ahead, without even factoring in any other operating cost savings!
I think plug in Hybrids like the Prius are allowed to use a lot of those incentives too, not sure which ones. Either way you can buy 7 used leafs for the price of a used Tesla, and all 7 of them get those incentives.

brooklynguy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2015, 01:49:53 PM »
I think plug in Hybrids like the Prius are allowed to use a lot of those incentives too, not sure which ones.

In that case, I'll have to resort to the up-to-30% discount Tesla owners reportedly receive on Tesla paraphernalia.  At that rate, you'd only have to clear $50k in purchases of Telsa-branded T-shirts and coffee mugs to come out ahead!

gimp

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2015, 07:01:40 PM »
So much idiotic butthurt in this thread. I love it.

music lover

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2015, 11:21:03 AM »
You have to be careful with this one.  The federal government's has been subsidizing oil and gas extraction for generations, in sums that far exceed anything yet devoted to renewables.  It still does.

Your claims need to be put into perspective, otherwise they are meaningless.

Renewables make up 5% of the energy market, while oil and gas which make up 80% of the market:

"Global fossil-fuel subsidies do exceed those for renewables in raw dollars—$523 billion to $88 billion, according to the International Energy Agency. But the disparity is reversed when proportion is taken into account. Fossil fuels make up more than 80% of global energy, while modern green energy accounts for about 5%. This means that renewables still receive three times as much money per energy unit."

Also:

"Per unit of energy produced renewables do indeed get 25 times the subsidy of fossil fuels. This is for the US alone":

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/11/13/renewables-get-25-times-the-subsidy-that-fossil-fuels-do/

libertarian4321

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2015, 04:09:26 AM »
The tesla model S is a cool car, don't get me wrong.  But it's not cooler than eleven Nissan leafs, (or two leafs, a gixxer, a suburban, and $25,000 of leftover cash).

Yeah, it is.  Though 2 Leafs would be more accurate (the Tesla Model S is a bit more than double the cost of a Leaf).

Your comparison of the Tesla Model S to a Nissan Leaf is kind of like saying its cooler to date 11  2 dumpy girls than to date Emily Ratajkowski (if you don't know who that is, do a web search and enjoy) because, you know, they kinda sorta have the same parts and kinda sorta perform the same "dating" function.

The Leaf is a POS that is barely functional.  It has piss poor performance.  It's tiny.  It's range blows- you'd have to spend half your life charging the damned thing if you ever wanted to do anything more than a short daily commute.  It handles like a golf cart.  It basically uses off the shelf technology.  It's a death trap with poor safety ratings.  It looks like crap- even those 11 2 dumpy girls won't want to be seen in it unless they are hard core enviros.

The Tesla Model S handles like a sports car (and has the acceleration of one).  It has the roominess/cargo space of an SUV (frankly, I think it's TOO big and has too much room- even without the "frunk").  It has more than 3 times the range of the Leaf.  You can drive across country and never have to worry about "range" (or even paying for "fuel" due to the free Superchargers).  And when you do need to charge, it charges much much faster.  It gets record setting safety ratings.  It's a technological marvel.  It looks good, Emily Ratajkowski won't mind riding in it with you. :)

An alley cat and a cheetah are both felines.  But 2 alley cats aren't cooler than the cheetah.

We would seriously consider a Model S if it were a bit smaller (my wife doesn't like big cars).  We wouldn't drive a Leaf if it was gifted to us.  And FWIW, we'd have zero interest in a 10 year old, low tech BMW muscle car as well.

libertarian4321

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2015, 04:14:41 AM »
Regarding the original question:  There only way a Tesla would be cheaper than a Prius would be if the person drove ridiculous miles (I won't do the math, but it would have to be huge) and only charged for Free at the Tesla Superchargers.

Uturn

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2015, 09:41:25 AM »
Your comparison of the Tesla Model S to a Nissan Leaf is kind of like saying its cooler to date 11  2 dumpy girls than to date Emily Ratajkowski (if you don't know who that is, do a web search and enjoy)

Good Lord what am I going to do with a 24 year old?  Eventually she will want to speak and tell me of her life experiences. 

zephyr911

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2015, 08:39:04 AM »
What is the price point for the more consumer-friendly Tesla model that is about to come out?  Do the numbers look any better then? Even with the most generous tax breaks a current Tesla costs more than a Prius, though I can see someone just comparing operating costs and ignoring initial sticker price and long term maintenance.
$35K before any tax credits.
5-year TCO will equate to that of a $20-25K car, depending on electric rates.

Good Lord what am I going to do with a 24 year old?  Eventually she will want to speak and tell me of her life experiences. 
The horror.

Jeremy E.

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2015, 01:22:23 PM »
The tesla model S is a cool car, don't get me wrong.  But it's not cooler than eleven Nissan leafs, (or two leafs, a gixxer, a suburban, and $25,000 of leftover cash).

Yeah, it is.  Though 2 Leafs would be more accurate (the Tesla Model S is a bit more than double the cost of a Leaf).

Your comparison of the Tesla Model S to a Nissan Leaf is kind of like saying its cooler to date 11  2 dumpy girls than to date Emily Ratajkowski (if you don't know who that is, do a web search and enjoy) because, you know, they kinda sorta have the same parts and kinda sorta perform the same "dating" function.

The Leaf is a POS that is barely functional.  It has piss poor performance.  It's tiny.  It's range blows- you'd have to spend half your life charging the damned thing if you ever wanted to do anything more than a short daily commute.  It handles like a golf cart.  It basically uses off the shelf technology.  It's a death trap with poor safety ratings.  It looks like crap- even those 11 2 dumpy girls won't want to be seen in it unless they are hard core enviros.

The Tesla Model S handles like a sports car (and has the acceleration of one).  It has the roominess/cargo space of an SUV (frankly, I think it's TOO big and has too much room- even without the "frunk").  It has more than 3 times the range of the Leaf.  You can drive across country and never have to worry about "range" (or even paying for "fuel" due to the free Superchargers).  And when you do need to charge, it charges much much faster.  It gets record setting safety ratings.  It's a technological marvel.  It looks good, Emily Ratajkowski won't mind riding in it with you. :)

An alley cat and a cheetah are both felines.  But 2 alley cats aren't cooler than the cheetah.

We would seriously consider a Model S if it were a bit smaller (my wife doesn't like big cars).  We wouldn't drive a Leaf if it was gifted to us.  And FWIW, we'd have zero interest in a 10 year old, low tech BMW muscle car as well.
I couldn't believe it when I read your post, it's not April 1st. What forum are we on???
Mustachians buy used cars, a used Tesla Model S is $70,000 and a used Leaf is $10,000. I would prefer to take the used Leaf and park $60,000 into VTSAX. The Leaf is not a POS, it's a fine electric car. It's not a luxury car, or else it wouldn't be mustachian. Yes it's not a huge car, but here's a post on how to help with that.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/08/turning-a-little-car-into-a-big-one/
It's range is over 80 miles, it's rare for mustachians to live more than 40 miles from work. For vacations you can rent a car or if you have a 2 car family you could also have an internal combustion engine car. You can travel up the west coast on I5 with the Tesla, but if you are traveling anywhere else you are pretty much screwed, and even with the superchargers on I5 it's very annoying having to stop and charge your car for an hour rather than spend 5 minutes getting gas, so a gas car is still ideal for traveling.
Handling and acceleration of a Leaf are fine, you aren't buying a race car, most people with similar complaints like this I call consumerist suckas because they drive big trucks and expensive luxury cars, it goes the same for your complaint about the look of a Leaf, and mustachians prefer hatchbacks anyways.
As for your comment about safety, here is another post.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/07/safety-is-an-expensive-illusion/
Lastly, here are some posts about an even better, safer, healthier and more mustachian way to get around.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/06/13/bicycling-the-safest-form-of-transportation/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/05/07/what-do-you-mean-you-dont-have-a-bike/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/12/05/muscle-over-motor/
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 01:25:11 PM by Jeremy E. »

zephyr911

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2015, 01:45:53 PM »
And yet, I'm still considering getting one eventually. Can't decide whether to say nothing about it here or shamelessly troll for facepunches. ;)

TheAnonOne

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2015, 06:13:37 PM »
And yet, I'm still considering getting one eventually. Can't decide whether to say nothing about it here or shamelessly troll for facepunches. ;)

At least you might get the environmental crowd to block a few throws.

No Name Guy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2015, 10:44:54 PM »
"block a few throws......"

For a coal / nuclear / Nat gas powered car?  Yeah, right. Powered by mercury emissions, waste that will be around for tens of thousands of years or by fracking. "zero emission" isn't - it just moves the pollution from the tail pipe elsewhere.


sol

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2015, 11:04:00 PM »
For a coal / nuclear / Nat gas powered car?  Yeah, right. Powered my mercury emissions, waste that will be around for tens of thousands of years or by fracking. "zero emission" isn't - it just moves the pollution from the tail pipe elsewhere.

Don't you think that depends on where you live?  This corner of the country is about 70% hydropower.  I have solar panels on my roof that generate more power than my household uses in a year by more than enough to power an electric car.

Electric cars are always cleaner to operate than gasoline cars, even if you're getting your power from coal or natural gas plants.  And they have the potential to be MUCH cleaner, if you get your power from renewable sources.

And nuclear gets a bad rap, IMO.  Storing nuclear waste is a heck of a lot safer and cleaner than storing coal ash, for example. 

Your comparison of the Tesla Model S to a Nissan Leaf is kind of like saying its cooler to date 11  2 dumpy girls than to date Emily Ratajkowski

Even if we choose to overlook how incredibly inappropriately sexist it is to compare women to cars, for just a moment, your argument would still be clearly invalid.  Models and non-models are both people, and their value as people is only determined in one tiny part by their appearance.  What if Emily Ratajkowski is a huge Hitler fan?  What if the two other girls are fantastic cooks and really into threesomes?

Quote
The Leaf is a POS that is barely functional.  It has piss poor performance.  It's tiny.  It's range blows-

For the purposes of my life, a functional car needs to transport up to four passengers over suburban city streets to destinations up to 8 miles away.  And back, at minimal cost.  Any 0-60 time below about 10 seconds is totally lost on me.  Any range over my maximum daily distance of about 30 miles is lost on me.  The Tesla costs six times as much for zero additional functionality.  It does look nice, though, so maybe if I was both vain enough and insecure enough to feel like a fancy car would make me more of a man that would count for something.

I like the Tesla.  I could buy one tomorrow with cash on hand.  But there is absolutely zero chance of that happening, because it's a horribly wasteful and inefficient use of funds.  If I really valued a status symbol, I would buy a leaf, have it gold plated, and then publicly donate the remaining $50,000 to charity in front of the Mayor and a bunch of newspaper reporters (I'm not doing that either).

No Name Guy

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2015, 08:33:40 AM »
Yes Sol, the pne does get most of its juice from hydro.  But I will remind you that in the lefty enviro eyes, and per state law it isn't "renewable".  As for solar - that only works if you park the car all day to charge and only drive at night.  Oh, and let's not forget the toxic pools of industrial chemicals all over China to make those solar cells.

 The point of this and the previous post being that a lot of electric car drivers think their cars are in fact "actual" zero emission vehicles.  They aren't.

If an all electric vehicle could satisfy my needs in a cost competitive manner I would get one.  But they can't.  I need a vehicle to go into the mountains on a regular basis. The Corolla goes where I need it to bringing the stuff I need cheaply.  Until someone figures out how to load 300-400 miles of energy in 5 minutes in an EV  they aren't for me.

sol

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Re: A Tesla is Cheaper than a Prius
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2015, 10:31:11 AM »
Yes Sol, the pne does get most of its juice from hydro.  But I will remind you that in the lefty enviro eyes, and per state law it isn't "renewable". 

You're mistaken.  It totally counts as renewable, it's just not eligible for tax breaks for renewable energy construction because it's already been built and operating for 75 years.

Quote
Oh, and let's not forget the toxic pools of industrial chemicals all over China to make those solar cells.

Except my panels and inverters, like all solar systems eligible for the state tax credit, are 100% manufactured in Washington state by companies that comply with all US environmental laws including chemical disposal.  So nice try, but you're reaching for excuses that don't exist in this case.  Why are you trying so hard?

Quote
The point of this and the previous post being that a lot of electric car drivers think their cars are in fact "actual" zero emission vehicles.  They aren't.

Life isn't zero emission.  But we can all live in ways that are less destructive and wasteful.  A zero (operating) emissions vehicle like a leaf or tesla is cleaner than an ICE in every imaginable way.

Quote
If an all electric vehicle could satisfy my needs in a cost competitive manner I would get one.  But they can't.

Do you own more than one vehicle?  Do they all need to make those long mountain drives?

We're a single car family of five, so our one car uses gas to make it maximally useful for all trips.  But 90% of those trips are less than 8 miles long, so an all-electric second vehicle makes a lot of sense for a family like mine.  If we really needed two cars, which we don't.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 11:47:15 AM by sol »