Author Topic: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining  (Read 10463 times)

Shalamar

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sieben

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 03:10:08 PM »
I read this article and saw them do an interview on TV.
Yikes...
It does not seem like he's put all that much thought into this.

At one point in the interview he mentions that each of the miners he bought cost $2,000 and it's generating about $10/day.
Don't quote me on these numbers, I wasn't really paying attention.
But if that is even close to true he is in for a world of hurt....

maizeman

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 03:26:00 PM »
Quote
"If this is going to work, it's going to work really well," he said. "If it's not going to work, I'm going to have to live with this decision the rest of my life ó and I'm fine with that."

Assuming he really is as at peace with this as he says (and not just telling himself "sure I'm okay if it fails, but it won't"), this actually seems like a healthy attitude.

That said, competing with the chinese companies that actually manufacture the custom silicon used to mine bitcoin these days and then operate a lot of them themselves while getting electricity a lot cheaper than retail pricing in canada seems like a bet that's very unlikely to pay off.

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2017, 05:18:43 PM »
just sat there and crossed my fingers ó and that would be really taking a chance," Ingram, 38, said. "I was looking for something that was a little bit more stable."

Best quote ever. 

sieben

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2017, 07:55:19 PM »
Quote
"If this is going to work, it's going to work really well," he said. "If it's not going to work, I'm going to have to live with this decision the rest of my life ó and I'm fine with that."

Assuming he really is as at peace with this as he says (and not just telling himself "sure I'm okay if it fails, but it won't"), this actually seems like a healthy attitude.

That said, competing with the chinese companies that actually manufacture the custom silicon used to mine bitcoin these days and then operate a lot of them themselves while getting electricity a lot cheaper than retail pricing in canada seems like a bet that's very unlikely to pay off.


That's what I didn't understand, it sounds like he's buying miners from one of the companies that has it's own massive mining operations in China. It really wasn't clear to me how you compete with that.

Hargrove

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 09:07:41 AM »
If you read not the fantasy blogs about Bitcoin's meteoric rise, but the mining blogs of Joe Miner, you'll find that the meteoric rise corresponds with a meteoric collapse in ability to get anywhere mining it.

Once upon a time, you could mine with a home computer. I know someone who is mining with an app on his phone and realized he hadn't collected enough credits to turn in for even a few pennies. Realistically, you now have to buy a custom-built machine designed to mine exponentially more efficiently than any "sweet rig" people have on a home computer just to pay for retail electricity and turn (something). Then you realize there are massive warehouses already doing this for nearly free electricity compared to what someone is paying in North America. Last I checked, the custom machines were the price of an expensive used car. Hope nothing breaks. Then even if you get into a co-op for commercial electric pricing, the value of your savings is constantly all over the map. As computing power behind it rises (which it does every time someone fires up a new machine), the value of your share of computing actually drops.

Also, prrrrrobably not great for the environment.

This is high-labor, high-stakes gambling.

sieben

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 07:28:44 PM »
I bought a fancy ASIC years ago when they first started coming out.
It was a just for fun type thing but it actually more then paid for itself, even with the much lower BTC prices at the time. It was really only worth running for a few months though before it ended up basically costing more in electricity then it was worth.
The tech. changes so fast, as an individual there's just no reasonable way to keep up.

Daley

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 08:36:51 PM »
Also, prrrrrobably not great for the environment.

Anyone with enough neurons to rub together's been saying this for years... but it's only now starting to hit home for some. It's future money! Wait, no, it's futures! No, it's an environmental clusterfark for something that can vanish into nothing but a literal metric crap-ton of CO2 due to anything ranging from simple data corruption to a good X level solar storm.

I'm just gonna leave this here - Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

As of Sunday, December 10, 2017:
Quote
Bitcoin's current estimated annual electricity consumption* (TWh):   32.56
Country closest to Bitcoin in terms of electricity consumption:   Serbia
Number of U.S. households that could be powered by Bitcoin:   3,014,975
Number of U.S. households powered for 1 day by the electricity consumed for a single transaction:   8.12
Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption:   0.15%
Annual carbon footprint (kt of CO2):   15,955

...and these are considered to be conservative numbers for right now. I'd be really curious to see collective numbers spitballed spanning the full lifespan of the thing just to estimate exactly how much environmental pollution (both greenhouse gasses and electronic waste) each BTC actually represents across the entirety of the mining phase of the fool thing combined with the average collected transactional pollution.

Remind me again how buttcoin is supposedly compatible with the values of this community?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 08:49:27 PM by Daley »

MgoSam

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 09:57:17 AM »
A good friend of mine's husband mines bitcoins. He does it as a side hustle and says that he knows that he doesn't have the nicest equipment but last year he said that he's earned enough to cover the cost of his equipment and he's work doesn't mind him using their electrify. I don't know if he's upgraded his equipment since then but if he hasn't I imagine he's doing fairly well.

MgoSam

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2017, 11:45:17 AM »
A good friend of mine's husband mines bitcoins. He does it as a side hustle and says that he knows that he doesn't have the nicest equipment but last year he said that he's earned enough to cover the cost of his equipment and he's work doesn't mind him using their electrify. I don't know if he's upgraded his equipment since then but if he hasn't I imagine he's doing fairly well.

If you don't pay your own electric bill the economics get significantly more favorable. ;-)

Back in the day when CPU/GPU mining was still practical I used to be a fly on the wall in discussions about how people could sneak bitcoin mining code onto big high performance computing clusters at different universities/research institutes. As far as I know none of the people I heard talking about it actually did it. The amount of money you might make vs the potential consequences if caught wasn't a good ratio.

Oh it's going on. A website owned by UFC was caught having a malicious code that mined for bitcoins.

https://www.coindesk.com/mixed-mining-arts-ufc-website-removes-coinhive-cryptocurrency-code/

EricL

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 11:59:28 AM »
It saddens me that I'm such a fogey I don't understand how bitcoin works at all.  So if I see a $10 million yacht owned by a bitcoin miner or I get to be self congratulatory about not losing a pile of dough in the latest lame financial fad I'm going to have to live with this decision the rest of my life ó and I'm fine with that.

Gondolin

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 07:41:58 AM »
Quote
Remind me again how buttcoin is supposedly compatible with the values of this community?

Because it allows technologists to feel cool, futuristic and supremacist while simultaneously engorging libertarian edgelords who believe that currency uncontrolled by governments will somehow be accepted by governments.

Environmentalists come in a distant third.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 07:44:15 PM »
It's almost as if people don't read books so they would know about stuff like the Tulip Craze in the 1600s, the Beanie Baby Craze in the 1990s, and the Dot Com Craze of the late 90s-early 2000s. That couldn't be the case, though.

EricL

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 12:35:04 AM »
The fear of "missing out" is what really gets people.  I suspect the IQ range of people who jump on these fads are fairly evenly distributed from start to finish.  Isaac Newton, frequently regarded as smart, famously pointed out the Tulip Craze was just that.  But the fear of missing out eventually dragged him in too - and too late.  He got hosed. 

The Dot Com Craze made sense to those who understood internet commerce implications.  What they didn't necessarily understand was that 1990s tech and consumer computer ownership wasn't up to those commercial ambitions.  But those who invested in the more solid companies, like Amazon or existing companies like Microsoft and Apple laughed all the way to the bank if they held on.  People that jumped on in a panic because they thought they were missing out got hosed.  I even heard of a guy who bought a $3 million "computer company" in 1996.  Said "company?"  A couple of trailers and office furniture but no employees or product.  In his defense, the trailers did have computers in them...

Beanie Babies, however, never made any sense. 

Kalergie

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 12:54:05 AM »
Also, prrrrrobably not great for the environment.

Anyone with enough neurons to rub together's been saying this for years... but it's only now starting to hit home for some. It's future money! Wait, no, it's futures! No, it's an environmental clusterfark for something that can vanish into nothing but a literal metric crap-ton of CO2 due to anything ranging from simple data corruption to a good X level solar storm.

I'm just gonna leave this here - Bitcoin Energy Consumption Index

As of Sunday, December 10, 2017:
Quote
Bitcoin's current estimated annual electricity consumption* (TWh):   32.56
Country closest to Bitcoin in terms of electricity consumption:   Serbia
Number of U.S. households that could be powered by Bitcoin:   3,014,975
Number of U.S. households powered for 1 day by the electricity consumed for a single transaction:   8.12
Bitcoin's electricity consumption as a percentage of the world's electricity consumption:   0.15%
Annual carbon footprint (kt of CO2):   15,955

...and these are considered to be conservative numbers for right now. I'd be really curious to see collective numbers spitballed spanning the full lifespan of the thing just to estimate exactly how much environmental pollution (both greenhouse gasses and electronic waste) each BTC actually represents across the entirety of the mining phase of the fool thing combined with the average collected transactional pollution.

Remind me again how buttcoin is supposedly compatible with the values of this community?

I'm in no way a Bitcoin proponent. But regarding energy consumption. I just did a 2 minute research on the electricity consumption of mining Gold. What I found was that electricity alone is around .2% of the world's electricity consumption. According to the below source, the world's electricity consumption is around 21000TWh. 0.2% of that is 42TWh. Approximation but it's still around the same as Bitcoin mining. Now which one is more useful to people, Gold or Bitcoin? I think gold for now, but that may change.

https://yearbook.enerdata.net/electricity/electricity-domestic-consumption-data.html

marty998

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2017, 02:09:59 AM »
The fear of "missing out" is what really gets people.  I suspect the IQ range of people who jump on these fads are fairly evenly distributed from start to finish.  Isaac Newton, frequently regarded as smart, famously pointed out the Tulip Craze was just that.  But the fear of missing out eventually dragged him in too - and too late.  He got hosed. 

Mate at work has 2 friends in England. Regular blokes who know f'all about investing. They wouldn't know what a share was if it lit up their arse. Each poured their life savings into bitcoins, one bought $100,000 worth yesterday.

We think they are insane.

UKMustache

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2017, 02:47:45 AM »
Mate at work has 2 friends in England. Regular blokes who know f'all about investing.
We think they are insane.

I'm also in the UK, two guys I work with (who also know sweet FA about investing) bought some yesterday.

One of them is talking about buying more today, despite my best efforts to convince him otherwise.

jinga nation

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2017, 07:05:24 AM »
It saddens me that I'm such a fogey I don't understand how bitcoin works at all.  So if I see a $10 million yacht owned by a bitcoin miner or I get to be self congratulatory about not losing a pile of dough in the latest lame financial fad I'm going to have to live with this decision the rest of my life ó and I'm fine with that.
If you want to understand, then read blockchain and it's applications. That is the real deal. IBM is already deploying blockchain without bitcoin. So is the Aussie Stock Exchange.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/computing/networks/video-the-bitcoin-blockchain-explained

Travis

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2017, 08:39:10 AM »
It's almost as if people don't read books so they would know about stuff like the Tulip Craze in the 1600s, the Beanie Baby Craze in the 1990s, and the Dot Com Craze of the late 90s-early 2000s. That couldn't be the case, though.

"But it's different this time!" - investors in each of those eras

The fear of "missing out" is what really gets people.  I suspect the IQ range of people who jump on these fads are fairly evenly distributed from start to finish.  Isaac Newton, frequently regarded as smart, famously pointed out the Tulip Craze was just that.  But the fear of missing out eventually dragged him in too - and too late.  He got hosed. 

The Dot Com Craze made sense to those who understood internet commerce implications.  What they didn't necessarily understand was that 1990s tech and consumer computer ownership wasn't up to those commercial ambitions.  But those who invested in the more solid companies, like Amazon or existing companies like Microsoft and Apple laughed all the way to the bank if they held on.  People that jumped on in a panic because they thought they were missing out got hosed.  I even heard of a guy who bought a $3 million "computer company" in 1996.  Said "company?"  A couple of trailers and office furniture but no employees or product.  In his defense, the trailers did have computers in them...

Beanie Babies, however, never made any sense. 

The author of "Random Walk" took apart the Dot Com boom pretty thoroughly in his book.  At the time if your company even smelled like it might have something to do with the internet you had investors lined up.  The author related an anecdote of when he was in the green room of a news show sitting next to two 20-year olds about to discuss their internet startup.  At the time of the interview they had no product, no income, and no published business plan, but were essentially already millionaires due to investors throwing money at an idea they came up with.

It was no secret the emperor had no clothes.  I remember as a kid watching a Coors commercial that featured a bunch of folks at the NYSE celebrating their IPO.  Their company name? "Another Dot Com.com."  One of the brokers down on the floor asked his buddy "So what do they sell?" His friend replied "Who cares? Look at what they're drinking!"  If a beer commercial during the Boom could hang a lampshade on the ridiculousness of the craze, then plenty of other folks knew what was going on.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 06:03:10 PM by Travis »

ketchup

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2017, 08:46:56 AM »
This isn't even just jumping on the Bitcoin wagon (which is risky enough); this is doing it in an incredibly stupid way.  They are going to lose their shirt.

Daley

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2017, 08:56:44 AM »
I'm in no way a Bitcoin proponent. But regarding energy consumption. I just did a 2 minute research on the electricity consumption of mining Gold. What I found was that electricity alone is around .2% of the world's electricity consumption. According to the below source, the world's electricity consumption is around 21000TWh. 0.2% of that is 42TWh. Approximation but it's still around the same as Bitcoin mining. Now which one is more useful to people, Gold or Bitcoin? I think gold for now, but that may change.

Perhaps so, but at least thanks to the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy, nothing short of nuclear fusion or fission or a literal act of HaShem will make the gold cease to be gold. You let loose a trouser trumpet the wrong way around a hard drive, and can irrevocably and permanently lose buttcoin like a fart in the wind.

trollwithamustache

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2017, 10:09:20 AM »
There is a lot not said in this article.  If you live in my city, power rates are too high to make money mining. There are counties north of Trolltown with cheap hydro power where a mining operation would be much more favorable, especially if you can get industrial power rates that are lower than residential. China has a lot of mining because power is cheap. There has been quite a bit of mining in Scandinavia where the cooling is free so the total power needed is much less.

I ran some numbers mid/late 2016 and could have made a go at mining with a facility a couple hundred miles from where I live. I targeted a 6 month payback but when I added in rent for an industrial zoned warehouse, I could not hit that target.

FWIW, it took me the better part of 9 months to pay off my mining hardware running one machine at home.  Over in the "official" thread for crypto/Bitcoin a ton of the early posters were successful at mining. (now its over run with BC trading fan boys)

Also not said, (and hopefully this guys is hip to this), successful miners do change currencies as mining profitability changes from coin to coin. But in a mass market media story maybe explaining he mines some alt currency every other weekend was too hard to explain.

If he can come close to a 6 month payback period on the mining hardware, he might actually do OK.

Please note, my official BTC speculation stance is that the addition of futures will keep price up or raise it for the next few months, but long term one faces serious risk of pound town, dot com style losses in BTC. 


stylesjl

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2017, 02:14:57 AM »
Mate at work has 2 friends in England. Regular blokes who know f'all about investing.
We think they are insane.

I'm also in the UK, two guys I work with (who also know sweet FA about investing) bought some yesterday.

One of them is talking about buying more today, despite my best efforts to convince him otherwise.
I have no less than three co-workers who have invested themselves in bitcoin (and a few other cryptocurrencies) and openly talk about it. Granted all of them seemed to have done it for only a few hundred dollars at a time. I even have a fourth co-worker who talked about his own dad attended some kind of cryptocurrency seminar and was certain that for a few hundred dollars the particular new cryptocurrency would be worth millions in only three years (the co-worker's dad, not the co-worker himself who found the whole idea bemusing).

At least we got to talk about new ideas for launching new 'Coins'. Would any of you like to invest in Concoin or Ponzicoin?

marty998

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2017, 02:55:35 AM »
Mate at work has 2 friends in England. Regular blokes who know f'all about investing.
We think they are insane.

I'm also in the UK, two guys I work with (who also know sweet FA about investing) bought some yesterday.

One of them is talking about buying more today, despite my best efforts to convince him otherwise.
I have no less than three co-workers who have invested themselves in bitcoin (and a few other cryptocurrencies) and openly talk about it. Granted all of them seemed to have done it for only a few hundred dollars at a time. I even have a fourth co-worker who talked about his own dad attended some kind of cryptocurrency seminar and was certain that for a few hundred dollars the particular new cryptocurrency would be worth millions in only three years (the co-worker's dad, not the co-worker himself who found the whole idea bemusing).

At least we got to talk about new ideas for launching new 'Coins'. Would any of you like to invest in Concoin or Ponzicoin?

If we stamp them with a mustache then it's legit!

Kalergie

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2017, 04:22:10 AM »
I'm in no way a Bitcoin proponent. But regarding energy consumption. I just did a 2 minute research on the electricity consumption of mining Gold. What I found was that electricity alone is around .2% of the world's electricity consumption. According to the below source, the world's electricity consumption is around 21000TWh. 0.2% of that is 42TWh. Approximation but it's still around the same as Bitcoin mining. Now which one is more useful to people, Gold or Bitcoin? I think gold for now, but that may change.

Perhaps so, but at least thanks to the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy, nothing short of nuclear fusion or fission or a literal act of HaShem will make the gold cease to be gold. You let loose a trouser trumpet the wrong way around a hard drive, and can irrevocably and permanently lose buttcoin like a fart in the wind.

HAHA!!! Thatís so true. I guess a powerful EMP could become a WMFD (weapon of mass financial destruction) in the future. Potentially able to wipe out all bitcoin wealth stored on those huge Chinese servers. Itís just bizarre that actual value is put into something so elusive.

Just Joe

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2017, 08:29:10 AM »
Mate at work has 2 friends in England. Regular blokes who know f'all about investing.
We think they are insane.

I'm also in the UK, two guys I work with (who also know sweet FA about investing) bought some yesterday.

One of them is talking about buying more today, despite my best efforts to convince him otherwise.
I have no less than three co-workers who have invested themselves in bitcoin (and a few other cryptocurrencies) and openly talk about it. Granted all of them seemed to have done it for only a few hundred dollars at a time. I even have a fourth co-worker who talked about his own dad attended some kind of cryptocurrency seminar and was certain that for a few hundred dollars the particular new cryptocurrency would be worth millions in only three years (the co-worker's dad, not the co-worker himself who found the whole idea bemusing).

At least we got to talk about new ideas for launching new 'Coins'. Would any of you like to invest in Concoin or Ponzicoin?

Can they be dark chocolate, covered in a gold colored foil and stamped with a flamboyantly Victorian mustache?

Daley

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2017, 09:06:14 AM »
Mate at work has 2 friends in England. Regular blokes who know f'all about investing.
We think they are insane.

I'm also in the UK, two guys I work with (who also know sweet FA about investing) bought some yesterday.

One of them is talking about buying more today, despite my best efforts to convince him otherwise.
I have no less than three co-workers who have invested themselves in bitcoin (and a few other cryptocurrencies) and openly talk about it. Granted all of them seemed to have done it for only a few hundred dollars at a time. I even have a fourth co-worker who talked about his own dad attended some kind of cryptocurrency seminar and was certain that for a few hundred dollars the particular new cryptocurrency would be worth millions in only three years (the co-worker's dad, not the co-worker himself who found the whole idea bemusing).

At least we got to talk about new ideas for launching new 'Coins'. Would any of you like to invest in Concoin or Ponzicoin?

Can they be dark chocolate, covered in a gold colored foil and stamped with a flamboyantly Victorian mustache?

A currency of gelt? I can get behind that. GIMEL!

OurTown

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2017, 08:47:32 AM »
I have no fucking clue what any of this means. 

EricL

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2017, 02:18:47 AM »
It saddens me that I'm such a fogey I don't understand how bitcoin works at all.  So if I see a $10 million yacht owned by a bitcoin miner or I get to be self congratulatory about not losing a pile of dough in the latest lame financial fad I'm going to have to live with this decision the rest of my life — and I'm fine with that.
If you want to understand, then read blockchain and it's applications. That is the real deal. IBM is already deploying blockchain without bitcoin. So is the Aussie Stock Exchange.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/computing/networks/video-the-bitcoin-blockchain-explained

Thanks for that.  I don't quite get all of it.  But I get enough.  The real interesting part comes in the attached article.  People have high hopes for this and intricately mapped ambitions.  Even if Bitcoin doesn't accelerate global warming or vanish from aggressive sun spots, the consequences and 2nd and 3rd order effects from the idea could be amazing.  Or horrifying. 

Edit: The above being said, haters gotta feel justified by this:
https://www.investors.com/news/long-island-iced-tea-corp-has-changed-its-name-to-long-blockchain-stock-soars/?src=A00220&yptr=yahoo
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 11:41:03 AM by EricL »

jinga nation

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2017, 12:12:38 PM »
It saddens me that I'm such a fogey I don't understand how bitcoin works at all.  So if I see a $10 million yacht owned by a bitcoin miner or I get to be self congratulatory about not losing a pile of dough in the latest lame financial fad I'm going to have to live with this decision the rest of my life ó and I'm fine with that.
If you want to understand, then read blockchain and it's applications. That is the real deal. IBM is already deploying blockchain without bitcoin. So is the Aussie Stock Exchange.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/video/computing/networks/video-the-bitcoin-blockchain-explained

Thanks for that.  I don't quite get all of it.  But I get enough.  The real interesting part comes in the attached article.  People have high hopes for this and intricately mapped ambitions.  Even if Bitcoin doesn't accelerate global warming or vanish from aggressive sun spots, the consequences and 2nd and 3rd order effects from the idea could be amazing.  Or horrifying. 

Edit: The above being said, haters gotta feel justified by this:
https://www.investors.com/news/long-island-iced-tea-corp-has-changed-its-name-to-long-blockchain-stock-soars/?src=A00220&yptr=yahoo
There's a comment on Ars Technica about this. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/iced-tea-company-stock-triples-after-adding-blockchain-to-name/
Quote
I had to look them up and unless I'm missing something for 2017 they have lost $11.5 million on revenue of $3.9 million.
I guess this is a quick cash out and run scam for the major share holders.

EricL

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bugbaby

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2017, 10:38:54 PM »
Bitcoin who?
Invest in Weed instead. At least you can smoke the stuff...

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gaja

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2017, 02:52:03 AM »
There is a lot not said in this article.  If you live in my city, power rates are too high to make money mining. There are counties north of Trolltown with cheap hydro power where a mining operation would be much more favorable, especially if you can get industrial power rates that are lower than residential. China has a lot of mining because power is cheap. There has been quite a bit of mining in Scandinavia where the cooling is free so the total power needed is much less.

Not only free cooling, but we also need the heat. Scandinavian towns are fighting to get large data centers, where part of the idea usually is to use the surplus heat for district heating. The municipalities are dreaming about being hubs for google or amazon, but now it turns out some of the easiest available investment money is from Russian crypto miners. Iím not sure that gets the same positive vibes.

We have a tiny rig in the bathroom, mining ethereum. It gives enough heat that we havenít needed any more heating in the basement so far this winter. Total, over the year, this means that the net energy need for the rig totals 30-40% less, than if we didnít use the heat. It is a hobby project; all parts bought second hand, total investments less than $1000. We sell what weíve mined every month, and will break even in less than a year if the prices keep.

The reason we set up a rig is that I donít like developing strong opinions without knowledge. Iím starting to understand how this stuff works, and it also looks very simple to do it legit, while paying taxes, etc. The energy consumption is an issue, but Iím not sure whether it is an issue to be solved, or if the flaw is inherent. I do know that these articles about how it costs 150 kWh to by a cup of coffee in bitcoin are bull. Calculations of energy consumption for these things have to separate between mining and transactions if we are going to have useful discussions.

Just Joe

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2017, 02:41:09 PM »
You ought to power your mining rig through a Kill-A-Watt...

maizeman

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BigFatherA

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2018, 09:29:08 PM »
In the 1600's there was the Tulip craze, which collapsed in 1637.  Unlike these "digital tulips" you could actually eat the real (worthless) tulips you were stuck with.  Also, does anybody remember 128 bit encryption?  They said that it would lake longer than the current age of the universe to crack it.  Six years later some wizkids cracked it.  I wouldn't expect blockchain to remain secure either.

Syonyk

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 06:21:02 PM »
Also, does anybody remember 128 bit encryption?  They said that it would lake longer than the current age of the universe to crack it.  Six years later some wizkids cracked it.

Which 128 bit encryption?

A 128 bit symmetric key is still quite secure.

BigFatherA

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 09:43:22 PM »
SSL amongst others.

One of the articles is here: https://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/how-the-n-s-a-cracked-the-web

sleepyguy

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 10:49:19 PM »
I'm confused how this guy thinks mining bitcoin HIMSELF is less of a risk than buying the coins himself?  He has electrical risk, rental risk, equipment risk, I mean a powerful surge 'could' take out his $100k operation in a second!  So odd.

At least he admits he'll live with the results.  I can't see this ending well at all.

He's 38 and has $100k... I don't understand why he would risk his entire nest egg.  If he ran some basic numbers and worked til 65 like most.  Principal of 100k, adding 10k /yr... at 6% compound... he'll have over 1M at 65.  I just don't understand.

hops

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libertarian4321

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2018, 03:13:03 AM »
The fear of "missing out" is what really gets people.  I suspect the IQ range of people who jump on these fads are fairly evenly distributed from start to finish.  Isaac Newton, frequently regarded as smart, famously pointed out the Tulip Craze was just that.  But the fear of missing out eventually dragged him in too - and too late.  He got hosed. 

The Dot Com Craze made sense to those who understood internet commerce implications.  What they didn't necessarily understand was that 1990s tech and consumer computer ownership wasn't up to those commercial ambitions.  But those who invested in the more solid companies, like Amazon or existing companies like Microsoft and Apple laughed all the way to the bank if they held on. 

For every Amazon, there were a hundred that went belly up, leaving investors holding a whole lot of nothing.

Yes, Amazon and a few others survived and thrived, over time.  Though it took many years for most of them to make a profit.

People weren't investing based on knowledge.  They were snapping up any company with a ".com" web site.

It was utterly insane.  People were buying any company that launched a web site as an "internet play."  I specifically remember one of the more absurd "internet plays" because I drive past the sleepy little town where they make Vermont Teddy Bears when I go to visit my brother.

This tiny, old, bland purveyor of cute stuffed Teddy Bears launched a web site, and the stock shot through the roof.  Completely...freakin'...ridiculous.

The company is still there.  It's still a small, boring business in rural Vermont.  Still makes cute Teddy Bears (perfect for Valentine's Day).  But those who "invested" during the mania got hosed because they had no idea what they were buying.  Though probably not as bad as most, because unlike most ".coms," this company actually produced a product and actually made a (small) profit.

Travis

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Re: A modern way to possibly go broke - Bitcoin mining
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2018, 08:31:57 AM »
because unlike most ".coms," this company actually produced a product and actually made a (small) profit.

Funny how that became the discriminator during the Dot Com crash. In a sane world that is the prerequisite for getting started.