Author Topic: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt  (Read 25300 times)

galliver

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2016, 11:44:05 AM »
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Then I met my husband. We fell in love, had a baby, and got married. It happened really fast, and we never had a financial talk.

This made me facepalm so hard. You don't do all that stuff in a month, FFS! How is it possible that the subject of finance never came up before?! The hubs and I talk about that openly within a couple of months, and we went deeply into the subject *before* moving in together. It boggles my mind that people can be so hard in denial about something so important in everyday life.

BF and I had 4 months to decide that we wanted to move 2000 miles across the country and move in together (my research advisor told me in April that she had a new job starting in fall). We had been dating for 3 years by that point, so we had a feel for each other's general attitude toward money (well, I guess that's not a given, but it was for us!).  But we had to talk about what moving in meant to us (correct answer: step on the way to marriage); what our (my, since I had lower income) budget for rent, etc. was; how we would handle bills/expenses; how we'd handle transportation/getting a car. We lived 3 hours apart and still managed to have those conversations, because we considered them very high-priority. Also, probably because we don't think money is awkward or shameful to talk about, when it's important.

Yeah, seriously.  I could half-understand "feeling like it's worth it" or "it's really not that much extra" or "not feeling like there's a choice" but not fundamentally understanding that you're borrowing money and needing to repay it later with interest? WTF?

Exactly. I just remembered this moment from senior year of high school, when a friend of mine managed to get a credit card right after turning 18 (not sure how, I don't think he had a job). He was talking about all the stuff he'd get like it was free money. And I'm just looking at him like "Are you f*cking stupid?" I think I asked him how he expected to pay it back and he was like "eh, I'll worry about that in 12 months". I was not as bold and beautiful as I am today so I just kind of shook my head, instead of punching him in the face as I should have done.

I do have to admit that after/during the move mentioned above bf and I did put some things on a 0% APR card for a while; they added up faster than I expected, tbh, and we ended up with probably $4-5k rolling over at the max. It turned out to be harder to pay off than I expected, which I think is serving as good inoculation against future debt (we did manage to pay it off a month or two before the 0% ran out, so no harm done, we're just smarter!). So, I do understand getting carried away, or something like a life emergency with no friends/family help available... but how do you rack up thousands of dollars and not think about the fact that you'll eventually have to pay it back?

ringer707

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2016, 01:46:47 PM »
"He had been making regular payments, but his auto-pay mistakenly got cancelled, and his loan went into default."

What? I don't even understand this. Your student loans (or at least mine) don't go into default IMMEDIATELY. You have to have months of missed payments before they're technically in default. How do you not notice that payments aren't coming out of your account each month for months at a time?!?!

MgoSam

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2016, 02:14:30 PM »
"He had been making regular payments, but his auto-pay mistakenly got cancelled, and his loan went into default."

What? I don't even understand this. Your student loans (or at least mine) don't go into default IMMEDIATELY. You have to have months of missed payments before they're technically in default. How do you not notice that payments aren't coming out of your account each month for months at a time?!?!

Actually it can happen, that said there are ways for someone to help remedy this. Sometimes it is the lender's mistake, but still you need to work diligently to make sure that any problems are fixed immediately.

I completely agree, if you notice that your payments aren't going through, something isn't right. I didn't get my electric bill for a few months so I called the company to get my balance to ensure my power wasn't shut off. Turns out a senile neighbor had been getting the notices and kept "forgetting" to call me.

talltexan

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2016, 10:00:31 AM »
It is true that women earn less than men on average. However, most of the labor market studies say that this gap starts to open up after age 30 (when women fall behind because of their care-related activities), so using the wage gap to explain why more women ages 18-24 have credit card is misleading. If it's true that women outborrow men in these ages, there would be some other cause.

mm1970

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2016, 10:09:29 AM »
It is true that women earn less than men on average. However, most of the labor market studies say that this gap starts to open up after age 30 (when women fall behind because of their care-related activities), so using the wage gap to explain why more women ages 18-24 have credit card is misleading. If it's true that women outborrow men in these ages, there would be some other cause.
The gap starts for engineers at year two.

But any event, it appears that young women are more often big spenders than young men.  I only have the media to base this on, as, well, I don't know many young women.  And te ones I do know are engineers.

talltexan

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2016, 10:16:00 AM »
Are you an engineer MM1970? My wife is one, and it's been really hard for her because she's stuck married to me, instead of having a productive, efficient wife like all of her co-workers do. I'm still trying to warm her to the ways of the mustache...

LeRainDrop

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2016, 10:20:48 AM »
It is true that women earn less than men on average. However, most of the labor market studies say that this gap starts to open up after age 30 (when women fall behind because of their care-related activities), so using the wage gap to explain why more women ages 18-24 have credit card is misleading. If it's true that women outborrow men in these ages, there would be some other cause.
The gap starts for engineers at year two.

But any event, it appears that young women are more often big spenders than young men.  I only have the media to base this on, as, well, I don't know many young women.  And te ones I do know are engineers.

Yeah, I don't know.  I would only have anecdotal data, too.  Most of the big spending from young adults that I see is spent on travel, electronics, or dining out.    I don't perceive one gender as being more spendy than another.

MrMoogle

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2016, 01:37:35 PM »
It is true that women earn less than men on average. However, most of the labor market studies say that this gap starts to open up after age 30 (when women fall behind because of their care-related activities), so using the wage gap to explain why more women ages 18-24 have credit card is misleading. If it's true that women outborrow men in these ages, there would be some other cause.
The gap starts for engineers at year two.

But any event, it appears that young women are more often big spenders than young men.  I only have the media to base this on, as, well, I don't know many young women.  And te ones I do know are engineers.

Yeah, I don't know.  I would only have anecdotal data, too.  Most of the big spending from young adults that I see is spent on travel, electronics, or dining out.    I don't perceive one gender as being more spendy than another.
I'm guessing it has to do with appearance.  Society "dictates" women dress in more expensive clothes than men, and use more products to make them look pretty. 

Syonyk

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2016, 01:44:11 PM »
And beards are in!

mm1970

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2016, 02:11:07 PM »
Are you an engineer MM1970? My wife is one, and it's been really hard for her because she's stuck married to me, instead of having a productive, efficient wife like all of her co-workers do. I'm still trying to warm her to the ways of the mustache...

Yep.  My husband got pretty lucky to get the efficient wife...eventually.  Early days, while I wasn't in debt I wasn't awesome with money (ask him about how I'd pay off my credit card every month...almost.  Like within $10, but not completely.  Because I was an idiot). 

I also was very spendy eating out because I didn't know how to cook.  He did most of the cooking, but we spent 2 years apart.  Oh boy the expense those years...pure laziness on my part (on top of a full time job and evening grad school).  Why couldn't I do what I did in college and my first year in the Navy, which is eat sandwiches and spaghetti?

So I am the productive, efficient wife (now, anyway).  But my husband is pretty good too.  We split the kid and household duties, so it's not so bad.

Judging by others...while eating out, travel, etc were big expenses for me back then...makeup, clothing and such were not as much.  And that's only declined even more as I hit my 40s.  Haircuts 2x a year, no makeup, glasses instead of contacts, jeans and t-shirts.  I have friends who are more into fashion and such.  Not to extreme levels, but definitely more than me (which isn't hard).  Shoes, clothing, makeup, hair, nails.  Most of my clothing expense is my annual $100+ on running shoes.

galliver

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2016, 02:51:27 PM »


The gap starts for engineers at year two.

But any event, it appears that young women are more often big spenders than young men.  I only have the media to base this on, as, well, I don't know many young women.  And te ones I do know are engineers.

That's actually not true. Market studies of spending habits showed that, on the whole, men and women spend comparable amounts on discretionary expenses. But men are more likely to spend on bigger, more expensive things, so men's purchases are less frequent. So, a woman might pick up a necklace or a shirt on a Target run here and there, whereas a man would upgrade his tv or game system once a year. Something like that. I think I've also read that (on average) women are more price-conscious and more likely to seek out and use deals, sales, coupons etc on a regular basis.   This is not to say that women never buy game systems and men never use coupons, just overall trends.

I'd also like to bring up the idea of the "pink tax": that comparable but gendered products, such as deodorant, sometimes/often cost more for women. There are also products men don't need at all (period products), and things we need to be perceived presentable in particular spheres: makeup, jewelry, matching shoes. Handbags because our pants doubt have pockets worth a damn (and it's unladylike to use them even if you have them). Now, I do believe some things even out; men's suits and clothes generally are more expensive, but women's are flimsier and need more frequent replacement. Men need more, but cheaper haircuts. They are bigger and eat more. But the number I've seen is, 10% more to be a (comparably perceived) woman.

marty998

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2016, 03:00:45 PM »
The gap starts for engineers at year two.

But any event, it appears that young women are more often big spenders than young men.  I only have the media to base this on, as, well, I don't know many young women.  And te ones I do know are engineers.

That's actually not true. Market studies of spending habits showed that, on the whole, men and women spend comparable amounts on discretionary expenses. But men are more likely to spend on bigger, more expensive things, so men's purchases are less frequent. So, a woman might pick up a necklace or a shirt on a Target run here and there, whereas a man would upgrade his tv or game system once a year. Something like that. I think I've also read that (on average) women are more price-conscious and more likely to seek out and use deals, sales, coupons etc on a regular basis.   This is not to say that women never buy game systems and men never use coupons, just overall trends.

I'd also like to bring up the idea of the "pink tax": that comparable but gendered products, such as deodorant, sometimes/often cost more for women. There are also products men don't need at all (period products), and things we need to be perceived presentable in particular spheres: makeup, jewelry, matching shoes. Handbags because our pants doubt have pockets worth a damn (and it's unladylike to use them even if you have them). Now, I do believe some things even out; men's suits and clothes generally are more expensive, but women's are flimsier and need more frequent replacement. Men need more, but cheaper haircuts. They are bigger and eat more. But the number I've seen is, 10% more to be a (comparably perceived) woman.

There are ways around the pink tax... shaving foam and razors.... there's no difference between men's and women's "brands".

Also, use roll ons instead of sprays. I'm a convert, the sprays just don't last very long and the roll ons generally smell just a bit nicer too.

Can't help you with the period products though... except to argue in favour of dropping GST/sales tax on them.

Syonyk

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2016, 05:45:14 PM »
Menstral cup. Buy once. Done.

alewpanda

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2016, 08:56:32 PM »
Couldn't finish the story before posting this

Funniest thing is that they keep having KOHLs shopping ads there.

Update: As I went back to finish the article, the whole page turned into one giant ad! haha

One quote "So I began analyzing my habits. I'd been spending $1,500-$2,000 a month on food, shopping, and going out with friends."   While making $55k per year!


Who spends 50+ dollars a DAY on shopping, food and going out???  Even my least frugal friends would have to eat out every meal to do this....and then some, if we are talking per person.

exterous

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2016, 09:21:46 PM »
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In terms of spending, I am very frugal.
(snip)
Family and friends give us hand-me-downs
(snip)
We've budgeted $400-$500 per season on clothes for our whole family

I've been trying to figure out how this paragraph makes any sense for a family of 4 and the only thing I can come up with is that she doesn't actually know what the word 'frugal' means

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My husband had to get a new car, our insurance premiums went up, and we had to buy a new couch

Leaving aside the 'had to get a new car' that was expensive enough for insurance premiums to go up a noteworthy amount I am trying to imagine a scenario where someone HAS to get a new couch - let alone one expensive enough to be included along side a car. Desperate commission salesman put a gun to your head and said 'Buy this couch or else!'?

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2016, 12:50:47 AM »
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My husband had to get a new car, our insurance premiums went up, and we had to buy a new couch

Leaving aside the 'had to get a new car' that was expensive enough for insurance premiums to go up a noteworthy amount I am trying to imagine a scenario where someone HAS to get a new couch - let alone one expensive enough to be included along side a car. Desperate commission salesman put a gun to your head and said 'Buy this couch or else!'?

I've been there.

My first couch was a freebie from my parents. A couple of years later they were renting their house out to go travelling. They put some furniture into storage but offered me their good couch. After five years of travelling they had to come home at very short notice, so I returned their couch and had to buy one.

I opted for a floor stock model and paid a third of the RRP. Had to buy a couch.

havregryn

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2016, 04:22:22 AM »
What I don't understand in all these stories (often seen in other "my financial history" narratives): "I didn't understand how [credit] worked." I realize that I paid more attention than most students in Algebra, which gave me both examples of and the skills to calculate compound interest. I realize that I was lucky to have a decent consumer economics class in high school and in college, to have my dad make me an authorized user on one of his cards and tell me "pay off anything you charge in full each month." But by that point I already felt like that was obvious and common sense. It just...baffles me  how you can get to age 18(+) without realizing that (a) loans need to be paid back (b) giant corporations don't give things away for free, so loans have to be paid back *with interest* and I guess (c) credit cards are loans. Kind of like you don't need a physics class or for your parents to sit you down to have a conversation about how "what goes up must come down," that you can't walk through walls, or that water freezes when it's cold and ice melts when it's warm. These are things you sort of pick up (not to say that focused education on financial literacy or physics classes are worthless...just that their absence seems like a bad excuse for completely thoughtless financial behavior...)

My father's favorite story to tell was how they paid for their wedding in 1981 with a credit card (this was in socialist Yugoslavia, I was actually surprised to hear they had those) and then a few days later the venue burned down (accidentally), destroying also all credit card records. So they never actually paid for the wedding at all. I am quite sure that even 30 years later he still felt it was a safe bet that maybe your debt will disappear if you put it on a credit card and drag it out as long as humanly possible. I guess it was true for them back then (they had bouts of inflation that would erase debt overnight). But what's wrong with young generations in the developed world, I have no idea.
Just recently I talked to a friend, my age, highly educated and mentioned how we were taking a 15-year mortgage as opposed to 30 because we could make those payments easily and it was significantly cheaper. I honestly got the vibe she felt sorry for me for being such an idiot and thinking that paying 2700 a month as opposed to 1500 makes something cheaper.
It's disturbing how clueless people actually are on how debt works.

Syonyk

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2016, 06:07:27 AM »
When the bulk of "training" on debt is from credit card companies and is about how you have to use credit to improve the Almighty Credit Score...

Though, did you get a better rate on the 15 vs 30? I'd generally have gotten the 30 and paid it like a 15. Frees up cash flow if you need it for a few months, and last I looked the 30 year rates were a bit lower.

exterous

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2016, 06:59:26 AM »
so I returned their couch and had to buy one.

I don't think you 'had' (required, forced) to buy a couch but instead 'wanted' one. I'm curious how much they spent on it and what situation resulted in 'needing' to buy a new one. When I was young and poor we survived with one stuffed chair and two folding chairs. We then graduated to a craigslist couch and bought a couch cover. Spent maybe $50? After that we stepped up to a $300 couch from a furniture store. Plenty of seating options out there that don't contribute to debt problems

Making Cookies

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2016, 08:01:40 AM »
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Then I met my husband. We fell in love, had a baby, and got married. It happened really fast, and we never had a financial talk.

This made me facepalm so hard. You don't do all that stuff in a month, FFS! How is it possible that the subject of finance never came up before?! The hubs and I talk about that openly within a couple of months, and we went deeply into the subject *before* moving in together. It boggles my mind that people can be so hard in denial about something so important in everyday life.

I got serious with a young lady once and was considering marriage with her. The longer things went on - the more I realized discussing real grownup topics like money, kids, jobs, spending - was like planning a murder with her. These were very uncomfortable topics that were only reluctantly discussed and in hushed tones when you did.

In time I moved on and I'm very glad I did.

If a couple can't discuss adult responsibility topics then they have no business being together and raising a family IMHO. Discussing debt and other responsibilities might make sense to MMM/frugality folks but apparently not to the average consumerist who lives to spend.

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2016, 08:56:53 AM »
If a couple can't discuss adult responsibility topics then they have no business being together and raising a family IMHO.

The inability to have an adult conversation is a great, big red flag indicating that the person in question is not an adult.

There are lots of adult-shaped humans out there who for whatever reason are not and will *never* be adults except in the chronological sense. They lack key skills and will most likely never be able to live independently, either as an individual or as half of a couple that might have division of labor but that shares the work load equally.

Only a few adult-shaped kids actually have a mental disability or developmental delay that genuinely keeps them from advancing beyond, say, an elementary-school level of maturity or intellectual development. Sometimes there's an incompletely treated mental illness, personality disorder, or addiction at work. But most of the time it's a simple question of being allowed to reach the age of majority without understanding what it means to pull their own weight, and with the (justified) expectation that the people around them should go out of their way to do things the adult-shaped kid is perfectly capable of doing, but elects not to do.

Marry one of these if you want to spend the rest of your life acting as his or her parent. You'll most likely have to do all the money management, the vast majority of the paid work outside the house, all or nearly all the chores and housework, and everything that requires planning, organization, maturity, or decision making skills. In return, your spouse will resent your "controlling" ways and fail to understand why he or she can't have or do whatever they want, immediately. In a lot of ways, being in a relationship with someone like this becomes instant parenthood. Also, having real children with a person like this doesn't cause him or her to mature. It simply puts him or her in competition with the kids for such time, attention, and resources are available. A dysfunctional adult takes up far more space in the lifeboat than a kid does, and is also better at competing for resources.

onlykelsey

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2016, 09:01:21 AM »
"He had been making regular payments, but his auto-pay mistakenly got cancelled, and his loan went into default."

What? I don't even understand this. Your student loans (or at least mine) don't go into default IMMEDIATELY. You have to have months of missed payments before they're technically in default. How do you not notice that payments aren't coming out of your account each month for months at a time?!?!

Ugh, I didn't notice for nearly three months and narrowly missed a default.  I had to replace my debit card (numbers had been stolen) and didn't realize one of my $30 autopays was not an ACH transfer, but a debit on my VISA card, which then couldn't go through.  Obviously it was my fault, but it's not impossible to do.

Of course I also once accidentally paid an extra 800/monthly to my condo association for three months before noticing, so I am clearly not someone who pays enough attention to her checking account.

jinga nation

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2016, 09:23:14 AM »
I remember that when I was in university from 1998-2004, one could not pay tuition and fees with a credit card. In 2007 I could pay for my wife's Master's degree with a credit card.
Maybe the first step to reduce future credit card debt is to outlaw paying for college tuition using credit cards.

MrMoogle

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2016, 10:05:34 AM »
I remember that when I was in university from 1998-2004, one could not pay tuition and fees with a credit card. In 2007 I could pay for my wife's Master's degree with a credit card.
Maybe the first step to reduce future credit card debt is to outlaw paying for college tuition using credit cards.
You're going to make me get checks again?  Ugh.

Making Cookies

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2016, 10:11:17 AM »
Stood behind an older gentleman last night at the grocery store who paid with a check. Wow - did not realize how long it had been since I witnessed someone use a paper check for anything. It took forever. Writing the check, ID verification, etc.

I think my kids thought they were witnessing an Amish tradition.

Rubic

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2016, 10:36:46 AM »
Stood behind an older gentleman last night at the grocery store who paid with a check. Wow - did not realize how long it had been since I witnessed someone use a paper check for anything. It took forever. Writing the check, ID verification, etc.

He wasn't wearing a bathrobe and slippers, by any chance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CalXM4vyIHM

jinga nation

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2016, 10:37:24 AM »
Stood behind an older gentleman last night at the grocery store who paid with a check. Wow - did not realize how long it had been since I witnessed someone use a paper check for anything. It took forever. Writing the check, ID verification, etc.

I think my kids thought they were witnessing an Amish tradition.
^History lesson right here.

jinga nation

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2016, 10:39:41 AM »
I remember that when I was in university from 1998-2004, one could not pay tuition and fees with a credit card. In 2007 I could pay for my wife's Master's degree with a credit card.
Maybe the first step to reduce future credit card debt is to outlaw paying for college tuition using credit cards.
You're going to make me get checks again?  Ugh.
Nah! Checks can be bouncy.
Cash Only. Ca$h is K1ng. The real thing. Greenbacks.

astvilla

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2016, 10:47:25 AM »
Stood behind an older gentleman last night at the grocery store who paid with a check. Wow - did not realize how long it had been since I witnessed someone use a paper check for anything. It took forever. Writing the check, ID verification, etc.

I think my kids thought they were witnessing an Amish tradition.

I don't think it's that uncommon.  I see it quite a bit.  Common in elderly women, 60s-90 y.o. 

MgoSam

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2016, 10:50:48 AM »
Stood behind an older gentleman last night at the grocery store who paid with a check. Wow - did not realize how long it had been since I witnessed someone use a paper check for anything. It took forever. Writing the check, ID verification, etc.

I think my kids thought they were witnessing an Amish tradition.

I don't think it's that uncommon.  I see it quite a bit.  Common in elderly women, 60s-90 y.o.

What gets me annoyed by them doing so is when they are waiting in line, their groceries on the conveyor belt, and they just idle the time away until the cashier finishes with the people ahead of them, rings them up and gives them the total, and then (and only then) do they pull out their checkbook to start writing a check. Seriously folks you can fill out everything save for the amount instead of holding up everyone else. This is a major reason why I love the automated self-checkout lanes.

mm1970

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2016, 11:25:21 AM »
I remember that when I was in university from 1998-2004, one could not pay tuition and fees with a credit card. In 2007 I could pay for my wife's Master's degree with a credit card.
Maybe the first step to reduce future credit card debt is to outlaw paying for college tuition using credit cards.
You're going to make me get checks again?  Ugh.
Nah! Checks can be bouncy.
Cash Only. Ca$h is K1ng. The real thing. Greenbacks.
Funny little story.  I write checks occasionally (my donations to the elementary school), because paypal takes a cut. 

Anyway, once a year the park a block up the street has a Brew Fest.  They charge for parking, but my street is a dead end street on the back end of the park.  So a lot of Brew Fest goers park in our neighborhood and walk in through the back fence.  (We try to remember to park our cars on the street, so at least if they are driving out they aren't likely to hit our kids because they are parked further down.)

My friends live 3 doors down from the back fence.  Every year, they set up a lemonade stand as the festival ends, and take donations for a local charity.  I enjoyed counting tipsy people going past my door with their lemonade cups.  They made $150 this year, less than last year.  Why?

Because nobody has cash anymore.  I told my friends you need to get the little square next time.  Her cell phone is a flip phone though, so it doesn't do that.

Making Cookies

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2016, 12:22:13 PM »
Stood behind an older gentleman last night at the grocery store who paid with a check. Wow - did not realize how long it had been since I witnessed someone use a paper check for anything. It took forever. Writing the check, ID verification, etc.

I think my kids thought they were witnessing an Amish tradition.

I don't think it's that uncommon.  I see it quite a bit.  Common in elderly women, 60s-90 y.o.

What gets me annoyed by them doing so is when they are waiting in line, their groceries on the conveyor belt, and they just idle the time away until the cashier finishes with the people ahead of them, rings them up and gives them the total, and then (and only then) do they pull out their checkbook to start writing a check. Seriously folks you can fill out everything save for the amount instead of holding up everyone else. This is a major reason why I love the automated self-checkout lanes.

Yep - exactly what he did.

galliver

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2016, 02:10:45 PM »
The gap starts for engineers at year two.

But any event, it appears that young women are more often big spenders than young men.  I only have the media to base this on, as, well, I don't know many young women.  And te ones I do know are engineers.

That's actually not true. Market studies of spending habits showed that, on the whole, men and women spend comparable amounts on discretionary expenses. But men are more likely to spend on bigger, more expensive things, so men's purchases are less frequent. So, a woman might pick up a necklace or a shirt on a Target run here and there, whereas a man would upgrade his tv or game system once a year. Something like that. I think I've also read that (on average) women are more price-conscious and more likely to seek out and use deals, sales, coupons etc on a regular basis.   This is not to say that women never buy game systems and men never use coupons, just overall trends.

I'd also like to bring up the idea of the "pink tax": that comparable but gendered products, such as deodorant, sometimes/often cost more for women. There are also products men don't need at all (period products), and things we need to be perceived presentable in particular spheres: makeup, jewelry, matching shoes. Handbags because our pants doubt have pockets worth a damn (and it's unladylike to use them even if you have them). Now, I do believe some things even out; men's suits and clothes generally are more expensive, but women's are flimsier and need more frequent replacement. Men need more, but cheaper haircuts. They are bigger and eat more. But the number I've seen is, 10% more to be a (comparably perceived) woman.

There are ways around the pink tax... shaving foam and razors.... there's no difference between men's and women's "brands".

Also, use roll ons instead of sprays. I'm a convert, the sprays just don't last very long and the roll ons generally smell just a bit nicer too.

Can't help you with the period products though... except to argue in favour of dropping GST/sales tax on them.

I wasn't saying I felt particularly oppressed by the "pink tax" (in fact, I think I'm less affected than most; case in point I use soap for shaving and rarely change blades!) , more bringing it up that it was a thing that affects many women. Yes, there are alternatives for some products/routines, but they may not work for everyone (e.g. some women use men's deodorant...but personally although I've borrowed my bf's bar in a pinch, I don't want to smell that way all the time; cutting hair can cut down on hair product use, but doesn't look good on everyone...and unfortunately in our world, attractiveness matters, professionally and socially).

talltexan

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2016, 02:35:26 PM »
Lately I've become aware of an effect of shopping with kids in tow. Women are more likely to do this, with the resulting cognitive load (or emergency bathroom trips) meaning that they miss out on price bargains. This shouldn't affect largely single 18-24 year olds.

kayvent

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2016, 09:04:40 PM »
"He had been making regular payments, but his auto-pay mistakenly got cancelled, and his loan went into default."

What? I don't even understand this. Your student loans (or at least mine) don't go into default IMMEDIATELY. You have to have months of missed payments before they're technically in default. How do you not notice that payments aren't coming out of your account each month for months at a time?!?!

I've done this for my telecommunications bill.

Say you have a transaction or two on your account everyday1. We'll ignore that it is very consumerist. Do you think you'll notice on your payday, day 27, that an auto-pay on day 4 (46 transactions ago) didn't happen? You may just think "Oh, I have x dollars in my account. Getting paid today. How much do I need to keep in my account to stay black until next pay day?"

I use YNAB and calculate, without thinking, an answer to that last question and jam the surplus into my savings account(s). Lots of ways for that heuristic to miss a recurring issue.

1 I used to be like that so I speak from experience.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 09:07:57 PM by kayvent »

partgypsy

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2016, 09:26:26 AM »
I just don't understand the whole mindset of putting things on credit card or borrowing money and not realizing it is money you now owe. It's not like it's magic money.  It is money you will have to pay back, with interest. I understood this even when I was younger (HS, college).

jinga nation

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2016, 09:36:17 AM »
I just don't understand the whole mindset of putting things on credit card or borrowing money and not realizing it is money you now owe. It's not like it's magic money.  It is money you will have to pay back, with interest. I understood this even when I was younger (HS, college).
The fundamental problem is that either/both at home and in school there is a lack of basic financial education. College students are prime suckers for No Annual Fee credit cards. Nobody looks are the fine print, even when they simplified it with the Schumer Box.
The solution for drastic debt has to be drastic; take that card away.
Use money you saved for things that you genuinely need.
If you can't save, there's no better time to learn than right now!

Making Cookies

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2016, 12:54:43 PM »
People just make the assumption that they'll have more money in the future to pay the cards off. You know, like the stereotypical temporarily inconvenienced rich person that so many people think they are.

Sorry if someone here already said that but I'm studying frugality hard these days. I'm channeling your wisdom (I hope). (edited: I originally said challenging here - why are my typos so egregious?)

The debt adds up quicker than they expect and that spare cash never materializes b/c they spend everything on "lifestyle extras" and boom, they are $35K in the hole at 17% interest. Only when they can't spend any more do they discover Dave Ramsey. ;)

I can't help but move around my town looking at people's stuff wondering how much of it is financed now.

Is there some metric that explains how high a person's debt can go? Can a person have 4-5 times their income in debt? Mortgage plus consumer debt like CC's and vehicle loans?

I live in a town with a fairly low median income in flyover country. Clearly some folks here do very well. Most do not. Still there are people living "fancy" lifestyles with a four door Jeep, big brick house, fishing boat, etc.

For as long as I have lived here I've wondered - "where do these people work?". There just aren't THAT many good jobs here.

I look around town and feel like I can expect each retail business to support two good incomes - the owner plus the manager perhaps. Everyone else would make ~$10 per hour. A doctor's office might have a few good jobs - doctor, couple of well paid assistants plus the office staff making $30K per year.

Anyone want to take a stab at this? How much debt can a family of four making $55K take on?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 10:21:29 AM by Joe Lucky »

TheGrimSqueaker

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2016, 02:03:44 PM »
People just make the assumption that they'll have more money in the future to pay the cards off. You know, like the stereotypical temporarily inconvenienced rich person that so many people think they are.

Sorry if someone here already said that but I'm studying frugality hard these days. I'm challenging your wisdom (I hope).

The debt adds up quicker than they expect and that spare cash never materializes b/c they spend everything on "lifestyle extras" and boom, they are $35K in the hole at 17% interest. Only when they can't spend any more do they discover Dave Ramsey. ;)

I can't help but move around my town looking at people's stuff wondering how much of it is financed now.

Is there some metric that explains how high a person's debt can go? Can a person have 4-5 times their income in debt? Mortgage plus consumer debt like CC's and vehicle loans?

I live in a town with a fairly low median income in flyover country. Clearly some folks here do very well. Most do not. Still there are people living "fancy" lifestyles with a four door Jeep, big brick house, fishing boat, etc.

For as long as I have lived here I've wondered - "where do these people work?". There just aren't THAT many good jobs here.

I look around town and feel like I can expect each retail business to support two good incomes - the owner plus the manager perhaps. Everyone else would make ~$10 per hour. A doctor's office might have a few good jobs - doctor, couple of well paid assistants plus the office staff making $30K per year.

Anyone want to take a stab at this? How much debt can a family of four making $55K take on?

It depends on what their tax burden is, which will vary with location, and whether they itemize deductions. Also, the kind of debt is highly relevant. I can get this imaginary family more than half a million dollars in debt without anything outrageous like divorce or medical expenses.

Suppose they bought real estate with 30% of their gross income going to mortgage: their payments would be $16500 per year. How much is interest depends on how it was amortized (interest-only loans have been available in the past). If that was the payment for a 5% interest rate, Excel tells me the mortgage could be as high as $350,000. If so, the interest portion could be deducted from their taxable income if they live in the USA, along with the property tax which will again vary with location. With four humans in the household that's another $12,000 to $24,000 off the taxes depending on things like what the Basic Personal Amount is per capita that year and whether anyone is blind. Given that it's a family of 4, Earned Income Credit is going to be applied.

My seat-of-the-pants estimate for the family's federal income tax burden is therefore close to zero. It could in fact be possible for the family to qualify for some forms of social assistance.

Now if health insurance is included in the benefits package that go with the $55k income, and property tax and insurance are about 2% of the property value ($7000 per year), we have $55k - $16.5k - 7k = $31.5k available after taxes and basic housing.

Utilities for an overpriced McMansion (in flyover country, remember) will be on the order of $200 per month, or $2.4k per year. We're down to $29.4k now. If the family is in distress and has scaled back food and living expenses to a fairly average (spendypants) $500 per month, subtract a further $6000 per year. We're left with $23.4k to cover everything not related to food, clothing, shelter, and taxes.

The amount of debt that can be supported on this remaining $23.4k depends on what the interest rate is, and whether there's spending that goes along with the debt. A car loan of $25k, over 60 months at 3.11% is a $450 per month payment. Let's suppose it's a 2-car family that has two such loans for a total car debt of $50,000. They're spending $900 a month, or $10.8k per year, just on the car loan. There's now just $12.6k of income left, of which about $300 per month will be earmarked for car insurance so that the lender doesn't call in the car loan. Accordingly, the family is down to $9,000 per year. Suppose miscellaneous car repairs, maintenance, gas, oil and such run about $500 per year per vehicle. The family now has $8,000 that could be conceivably allocated to service on debt, but owes $400k between the mortgage and the two car loans.

Student loans could be a very plausible addition. At an interest rate of 5% and a loan balance of $100k ($50k per adult for degrees in classical basket-weaving and Alien-American Studies) the Sallie Mae Web site tells me the annual payments will be about $6444. So the family now has a little over $130 a month for other types of debt service. What kind? Cell phones and credit cards!

You can get cell phones at 0% interest, so if the family is paying $100 a month for a couple not-quite-new Smart phones on the installment plan, it's plausible that $1,000 could be outstanding on the phones. $30 a month remains for debt service.

At 18% interest rates (because you know these guys missed some credit card payments here and there), with a minimum payment of interest plus 1%, $30 per month can get you $1200 carried month to month on a credit card. So.....

$350,000 mortgage
  $50,000 car loans
$100,000 student loans
    $1,000 phones
    $1,200 credit card debt
-----------------------------------
$502,200 in total debt is mathematically possible without having to go bankrupt.

If the family is clever and knows how to exploit low-interest balance transfers it's possible they might carry more credit card debt. Same goes if they aren't "living the stereotype" in terms of overconsumption of real estate or cars, or if they've gotten some kind of 0% introductory loan for furniture or other items.

The lower the interest rate, the more debt a person can pile on without realizing they're in trouble.

Now, if I made other plausible assumptions like a sick family member or a co-breadwinner who is injured in a car accident or as a victim of a crime, I could add on oodles of medical debt to that number and nobody in the USA would blink an eye.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2016, 11:35:41 PM »
...
I'd also like to bring up the idea of the "pink tax": that comparable but gendered products, such as deodorant, sometimes/often cost more for women. There are also products men don't need at all (period products), and things we need to be perceived presentable in particular spheres: makeup, jewelry, matching shoes. Handbags because our pants doubt have pockets worth a damn (and it's unladylike to use them even if you have them). Now, I do believe some things even out; men's suits and clothes generally are more expensive, but women's are flimsier and need more frequent replacement. Men need more, but cheaper haircuts. They are bigger and eat more. But the number I've seen is, 10% more to be a (comparably perceived) woman.

There are ways around the pink tax... shaving foam and razors.... there's no difference between men's and women's "brands".

Also, use roll ons instead of sprays. I'm a convert, the sprays just don't last very long and the roll ons generally smell just a bit nicer too.

Can't help you with the period products though... except to argue in favour of dropping GST/sales tax on them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teenage-meninist-sparks-fury-anti-9067035

It's ok, marty998, this guy has a solution for us.

He tweeted:

Quote
Tampons should not be free, why does everyone keep saying they should be?? if u can't control ur bladder then that's not taxpayers problem!

He later told a reporter:

Quote
"People have told me that I must have skipped biology lessons but I don't understand how that is relevant".
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 04:08:35 PM by mustachepungoeshere »

Making Cookies

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2016, 01:49:21 PM »
Thanks GS. You did my homework and put it all in perspective.

I used to think the average person around me was well off, now I'm correcting that to believe that a fair number of people are into debt up to their belt buckles. ;)

marty998

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2016, 04:17:08 PM »
...
I'd also like to bring up the idea of the "pink tax": that comparable but gendered products, such as deodorant, sometimes/often cost more for women. There are also products men don't need at all (period products), and things we need to be perceived presentable in particular spheres: makeup, jewelry, matching shoes. Handbags because our pants doubt have pockets worth a damn (and it's unladylike to use them even if you have them). Now, I do believe some things even out; men's suits and clothes generally are more expensive, but women's are flimsier and need more frequent replacement. Men need more, but cheaper haircuts. They are bigger and eat more. But the number I've seen is, 10% more to be a (comparably perceived) woman.

There are ways around the pink tax... shaving foam and razors.... there's no difference between men's and women's "brands".

Also, use roll ons instead of sprays. I'm a convert, the sprays just don't last very long and the roll ons generally smell just a bit nicer too.

Can't help you with the period products though... except to argue in favour of dropping GST/sales tax on them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teenage-meninist-sparks-fury-anti-9067035

It's ok, marty998, this guy has a solution for us.

He tweeted:

Quote
Tampons should not be free, why does everyone keep saying they should be?? if u can't control ur bladder then that's not taxpayers problem!

He later told a reporter:

Quote
"People have told me that I must have skipped biology lessons but I don't understand how that is relevant".

My eyes just popped out. Surely he can't be that stupid?

Kitsunegari

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2016, 05:17:30 PM »
...
I'd also like to bring up the idea of the "pink tax": that comparable but gendered products, such as deodorant, sometimes/often cost more for women. There are also products men don't need at all (period products), and things we need to be perceived presentable in particular spheres: makeup, jewelry, matching shoes. Handbags because our pants doubt have pockets worth a damn (and it's unladylike to use them even if you have them). Now, I do believe some things even out; men's suits and clothes generally are more expensive, but women's are flimsier and need more frequent replacement. Men need more, but cheaper haircuts. They are bigger and eat more. But the number I've seen is, 10% more to be a (comparably perceived) woman.

There are ways around the pink tax... shaving foam and razors.... there's no difference between men's and women's "brands".

Also, use roll ons instead of sprays. I'm a convert, the sprays just don't last very long and the roll ons generally smell just a bit nicer too.

Can't help you with the period products though... except to argue in favour of dropping GST/sales tax on them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teenage-meninist-sparks-fury-anti-9067035

It's ok, marty998, this guy has a solution for us.

He tweeted:

Quote
Tampons should not be free, why does everyone keep saying they should be?? if u can't control ur bladder then that's not taxpayers problem!

He later told a reporter:

Quote
"People have told me that I must have skipped biology lessons but I don't understand how that is relevant".

My eyes just popped out. Surely he can't be that stupid?

What baffles me the most is that he has a girlfriend, so he really shouldn't be this clueless about female anatomy...

kayvent

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2016, 06:25:26 PM »
...
I'd also like to bring up the idea of the "pink tax": that comparable but gendered products, such as deodorant, sometimes/often cost more for women. There are also products men don't need at all (period products), and things we need to be perceived presentable in particular spheres: makeup, jewelry, matching shoes. Handbags because our pants doubt have pockets worth a damn (and it's unladylike to use them even if you have them). Now, I do believe some things even out; men's suits and clothes generally are more expensive, but women's are flimsier and need more frequent replacement. Men need more, but cheaper haircuts. They are bigger and eat more. But the number I've seen is, 10% more to be a (comparably perceived) woman.

There are ways around the pink tax... shaving foam and razors.... there's no difference between men's and women's "brands".

Also, use roll ons instead of sprays. I'm a convert, the sprays just don't last very long and the roll ons generally smell just a bit nicer too.

Can't help you with the period products though... except to argue in favour of dropping GST/sales tax on them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teenage-meninist-sparks-fury-anti-9067035

It's ok, marty998, this guy has a solution for us.

He tweeted:

Quote
Tampons should not be free, why does everyone keep saying they should be?? if u can't control ur bladder then that's not taxpayers problem!

He later told a reporter:

Quote
"People have told me that I must have skipped biology lessons but I don't understand how that is relevant".

My eyes just popped out. Surely he can't be that stupid?

What baffles me the most is that he has a girlfriend, so he really shouldn't be this clueless about female anatomy...

If he keeps her barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen then he has an excuse to not know about periods.

Dezrah

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2016, 07:13:41 AM »
In college I educated at least two guys on how tampons worked.  I did my best to be very kind and informative because they were genuinely asking from a place of ignorance.  I couldn't help laughing though when one of them asked how a woman doesn't just pee it out.  I thought he was joking but now I'm not so sure.

kayvent

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #95 on: October 22, 2016, 05:30:19 AM »
In college I educated at least two guys on how tampons worked.  I did my best to be very kind and informative because they were genuinely asking from a place of ignorance.  I couldn't help laughing though when one of them asked how a woman doesn't just pee it out.  I thought he was joking but now I'm not so sure.

In their defense, males use their urethra for both ejaculation and urination. They're thinking the plumbing is similar! (Sidenote: I've met women who didn't know they peed out of their urethra.)

Syonyk

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #96 on: October 22, 2016, 10:50:14 AM »
In college I educated at least two guys on how tampons worked.

<.<  I knew the concept of tampons, but only rather recently (I'm 35) did my wife show me how they actually work - with the applicator cardboard tubes and such.  It's just never come up before - I know they exist, I know what they do, but the actual mechanics of them?  I haven't ever had a reason to know.

MrMoogle

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #97 on: October 24, 2016, 10:22:40 AM »
In college I educated at least two guys on how tampons worked.

<.<  I knew the concept of tampons, but only rather recently (I'm 35) did my wife show me how they actually work - with the applicator cardboard tubes and such.  It's just never come up before - I know they exist, I know what they do, but the actual mechanics of them?  I haven't ever had a reason to know.
I don't know the mechanics either.  I'm kind of curious, but also kind of queasy at this topic.  Maybe I'll look it up later...

Squirrel away

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #98 on: October 25, 2016, 03:56:59 AM »
Yikes, what the fuck. It's really quite shocking how so many people are so clueless about personal finance.

havregryn

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Re: 6 Women, $270,000 of collective debt
« Reply #99 on: October 31, 2016, 02:52:34 AM »
Yikes, what the fuck. It's really quite shocking how so many people are so clueless about personal finance.

It's because the society rewards that.
Can't speak for the rest of the world, but my home country you could sum up like this:
 People who have no money but spend like crazy in their spending phase: they are spontaneous, energetic, they value the good things in life, they don't concern themselves with frivolous matters, they love to have fun, they love to share their wealth
 People from the first group once their creditors catch up with them: they are victims, the banks, capitalists, lizard people conspired to destroy them and the whole human race.
People who save money in the accumulation phase: they are scrooges, a sad pathetic lonesome bunch, something mothers scare their kids with.
People who save money once they have money : rich assholes who have no compassion for the little man.

And that is everywhere..media, forums, dinner talks...you will hardly ever hear a different view. So of course that the youth has no freakin clue about anything and genuinely believes the two basic premises - you deserve whatever you want and if you can't afford it, it's someone else's fault.