Author Topic: 30 year old man kills father over allowance  (Read 12784 times)

vivophoenix

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2015, 09:53:37 AM »

I have a theory that the most screwed up people that just cause problems live in either the poorest parts of society, or the wealthiest.    Not all mind you, but a significant portion.    In my experience, the heaviest drug and alcohol users I've known were very rich or very poor.   They also had the craziest kids, and the most personal problems like multiple divorces.    You generally didn't want to get cornered by any of them at a party either.
The drug addiction is often what makes folks who might otherwise wind up somewhere in the middle very poor.

i feel like it would be difficult to agree with the idea that the poor are poor due to drug addiction,  and not because we live in a  society with built with structure  to keep them poor.

i thought we have shown plenty of stats that poor health is what brings down the middle class.

dandarc

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2015, 09:55:37 AM »

I have a theory that the most screwed up people that just cause problems live in either the poorest parts of society, or the wealthiest.    Not all mind you, but a significant portion.    In my experience, the heaviest drug and alcohol users I've known were very rich or very poor.   They also had the craziest kids, and the most personal problems like multiple divorces.    You generally didn't want to get cornered by any of them at a party either.
The drug addiction is often what makes folks who might otherwise wind up somewhere in the middle very poor.

i feel like it would be difficult to agree with the idea that the poor are poor due to drug addiction,  and not because we live in a  society with built with structure  to keep them poor.

i thought we have shown plenty of stats that poor health is what brings down the middle class.
Let me rephrase for clarity - the two drug addicts I know reasonably well are both poor because of their drug addictions.  Certainly not saying that is the case for all poor people.
Link to my journal, so I can find it quickly - http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/dandarc's-journal/

partgypsy

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2015, 10:17:50 AM »
"Interesting perspective, I won't disagree with you outright.    I'd imagine the kid dealt with some bad situations growing up."

Why, because he came from wealth? There is absolutely no evidence to support anything you are saying regarding this person(that he possibly suffered abuse, parents had bad parenting style, were inattentive,I'm sure others I forgot).
And if the Dad didn't think he was good enough (not that is even documented anywhere)  If it bothered him, don't accept anything from your parents and live your own life, done. If you don't, your parents can say and think what they want of you, especially if you are a 30 year old grown man.

In my family, my older brother is a bad seed.  My parents did both err in that they kept trying to help him and shield him and bailed him out of situations rather than have him suffer the consequences of his actions. But as far as I can tell, the way he is, he was born that way. 

I'm sure we are not the only family who has someone like that. If we were a poor family the only difference my brother would be in prison.
 (where is the disbelief emotie?)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 10:27:56 AM by partgypsy »

greaper007

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2015, 10:36:02 AM »
"Interesting perspective, I won't disagree with you outright.    I'd imagine the kid dealt with some bad situations growing up."

Why, because he came from wealth? There is absolutely no evidence to support anything you are saying regarding this person(that he possibly suffered abuse, parents had bad parenting style, were inattentive,I'm sure others I forgot).

In my family, my older brother, well let's just leave it he is the black sheep of the family. My parents were good parents. As far as I know he did not have any "trauma". My parents did both err in that they kept trying to help him and shield him and bailed him out of situations rather than have him suffer the consequences of his actions. But as far as I can tell, the way he is, he was born that way. 

I'm sure we are not the only family who has someone like that. If we were a poor family the only difference my brother would be in prison.

I'm not a psychologist, but I am married to one.   At the risk of sounding like one of those people that think they gain knowledge by partner osmosis, I'm going to bite  on this one. 

There's often a lot more going on in a family than the individual members are able to discern.    Things like birth order and general disposition differences of children and parents can have an enormous effect on what people eventually become.    I don't know your brother or your situation, but I'd imagine there's more at play than just a "bad seed."

When my wife did family therapy the impetus was generally that one member of the family, usually a kid getting in trouble, was the problem.    What almost always happened though was after a few sessions everyone stopped turning on the "trouble maker" and started turning on each other.    The familial issues were deep seated and a type of Stockholm syndrome begins to exist where you can't really identify the problems in your family.   The kid getting in trouble was often the one that was the smartest or most sensitive and most unable to conform to the negative family dynamics.   

I'll also say that I was the oldest child in my family and also the "black sheep" if you will.    It took me many failed attempts at therapy until I got down to the root of my depression and behavior.    I eventually came to embrace the fact that I grew up in an abusive household even though my parents were relatively wealthy, around, and said they loved me.    It was liberating to stop blaming myself and start to analyze the issues and find solutions.

When you grow up in a dysfunctional family it's very difficult to break down the cause of your issues without outside help.   I think a closer inspection would reveal the source of your brothers behavior.

partgypsy

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2015, 11:01:51 AM »
"Interesting perspective, I won't disagree with you outright.    I'd imagine the kid dealt with some bad situations growing up."

Why, because he came from wealth? There is absolutely no evidence to support anything you are saying regarding this person(that he possibly suffered abuse, parents had bad parenting style, were inattentive,I'm sure others I forgot).

In my family, my older brother, well let's just leave it he is the black sheep of the family. My parents were good parents. As far as I know he did not have any "trauma". My parents did both err in that they kept trying to help him and shield him and bailed him out of situations rather than have him suffer the consequences of his actions. But as far as I can tell, the way he is, he was born that way. 

I'm sure we are not the only family who has someone like that. If we were a poor family the only difference my brother would be in prison.

I'm not a psychologist, but I am married to one.   At the risk of sounding like one of those people that think they gain knowledge by partner osmosis, I'm going to bite  on this one. 

There's often a lot more going on in a family than the individual members are able to discern.    Things like birth order and general disposition differences of children and parents can have an enormous effect on what people eventually become.    I don't know your brother or your situation, but I'd imagine there's more at play than just a "bad seed."

When my wife did family therapy the impetus was generally that one member of the family, usually a kid getting in trouble, was the problem.    What almost always happened though was after a few sessions everyone stopped turning on the "trouble maker" and started turning on each other.    The familial issues were deep seated and a type of Stockholm syndrome begins to exist where you can't really identify the problems in your family.   The kid getting in trouble was often the one that was the smartest or most sensitive and most unable to conform to the negative family dynamics.   

I'll also say that I was the oldest child in my family and also the "black sheep" if you will.    It took me many failed attempts at therapy until I got down to the root of my depression and behavior.    I eventually came to embrace the fact that I grew up in an abusive household even though my parents were relatively wealthy, around, and said they loved me.    It was liberating to stop blaming myself and start to analyze the issues and find solutions.

When you grow up in a dysfunctional family it's very difficult to break down the cause of your issues without outside help.   I think a closer inspection would reveal the source of your brothers behavior.

I am glad that you took responsibility for your own mental health, got outside help if that was needed, and was able to move on. I've known people who were in actual abusive family situations, or experienced real trauma. At some point everyone has to make the switch, from blaming others and seeing oneself as a victim, to realizing one's life is in your own hands and you only have one life. It is up to everyone, to make their life work.

As far as therapy, my brother has been to 2 inpatient treatment centers, an outward bound type camp, and also individual and family therapy, all paid by my parents. He only did what he was forced to, and for family therapy he was often the only one not attending. Our family dynamic is pretty messed up, but it is hard to separate the amount of trauma the rest of the family has experienced because of him, from some pre-existing bad dynamic as you suggest. I would have thought my family was within the range of normal, but who knows? The most significant issue the various therapists had was my mother's enabling and codependency behavior, which would often make the other interventions ineffective. so I do think my mom is kind of messed up because of this relationship she has with my brother, which  in turn affects all of us. As far as lack of insight, everyone in our family has had the conversation, with ourselves, with other family members, etc about our family, any way to prevent it from happening, a lot of soul searching in our family (well, except for one). The only pattern I see, the longer you are around this person, the more ruined your life will be. I think the only thing charitable I can say, he hasn't killed anyone yet, that I know of anyway.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:15:11 AM by partgypsy »

greaper007

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2015, 02:45:54 PM »
I understand what you're saying, I'm not talking to a couple immediate family members right now because they're toxic.    I can't take their behavior in my life right now.    But I also recognize that they act the way they do because they grew up in a household with narcissistic, abusive parents.

I agree though, once you're in your 30s you have to start trying to do something.

vivophoenix

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2015, 03:04:52 PM »
no one is debating the fact that a  bad childhood scars people blah blah blah.

 i think the point being missed here is that we have no evidence that there was abuse( emotional or physical) and no evidence of mental illness. however in an attempt to explain( excuse ) the actions of a murderer,  everyone is making up all these  bs scenarios.
the only facts are:  he was told no more money, then he killed his golden goose.


this is often something that happens when speaking about crime and people of privilege.  society needs to find someway to make them a victim, whom is  just acting out as a result of their pain.

no one wants to believe that the son of the 1%, afforded the best of everything could possibly turn out this poorly.

this undermines the whole delusion that the privileged cant be bad people like the 'trash' of society. 

i am curious if the family was composed of poor minorities if every pysh 101 major here would be going on about mental illness and drug addiction

gimp

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2015, 04:22:36 PM »
I agree, vivo. Which is why I stand by my original statement. He's a cunt. Stop making excuses for a murderer.

greaper007

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2015, 01:14:13 PM »
no one is debating the fact that a  bad childhood scars people blah blah blah.

 i think the point being missed here is that we have no evidence that there was abuse( emotional or physical) and no evidence of mental illness. however in an attempt to explain( excuse ) the actions of a murderer,  everyone is making up all these  bs scenarios.
the only facts are:  he was told no more money, then he killed his golden goose.


this is often something that happens when speaking about crime and people of privilege.  society needs to find someway to make them a victim, whom is  just acting out as a result of their pain.

no one wants to believe that the son of the 1%, afforded the best of everything could possibly turn out this poorly.

this undermines the whole delusion that the privileged cant be bad people like the 'trash' of society. 

i am curious if the family was composed of poor minorities if every pysh 101 major here would be going on about mental illness and drug addiction

I find it's best to remove personal feelings from certain societal problems.    This dude did a horrible thing and I would never condone it, nor would I suggest it was justified if he was abused.     I simply think too many people on this thread and in society in general are going black and white in order to simplify the complex issues surrounding things like mental health and violent crime.

I find having a discussion of "why" instead of "can you believe..."  is ultimately more helpful in my own personal life decisions, and the decisions I make as a citizen of a democracy.

capital

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2015, 05:15:17 PM »
I was recalled that this dude was grew up in Manhattan (one of the most densely car-packed places on Earth) during the tail end of the leaded-gas era.
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline

So perhaps his father is one of the final casualties of the leaded gasoline era's period of correlation between crime and big cities.
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/01/are-big-cities-more-dangerous-small-ones

Idle speculation is fun!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 05:17:06 PM by ehgee »

SaintM

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #60 on: January 19, 2015, 08:45:02 PM »
I would seriously prefer my kids make it on their own in a campground with 3 tent-mates than be addicted to/dependent upon my money.

theonethatgotaway

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Re: 30 year old man kills father over allowance
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2015, 10:34:14 AM »
The mans girlfriend and friends commented about how he was emotionally tortured by his father and would never love up to his expectations.

I don't think it's wrong here to speculate that a little love in the guys life would have gone a long way.