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Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Indexer on December 03, 2016, 07:26:13 AM

Title: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 03, 2016, 07:26:13 AM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/2017-maserati-levante-review-a-luxury-suv-thats-a-bargain-1480627419

Yes, WSJ thinks this SUV is a bargain at.... $72,000 for the base model. The S model is $83,000, and the model they tested is 'only' $94,600.

Highlights!
"2.3 tons of you-canít-catch-me, sexed up with handbag leather and pearl paint, and powered by a loquacious 3.0-liter turbo V-6"
"In addition to the air pillows at all four corners, the windshield and windows are made of acoustic-damping glass, a feature usually found over the $100,000 threshold. Oh, thank you very much."

16MPG.

Oh, and it is a 'bargain' because a Porsche Cayenne outfitted in a similar fashion would be over $100,000...
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 03, 2016, 08:05:09 AM
http://www.wsj.com/articles/2017-maserati-levante-review-a-luxury-suv-thats-a-bargain-1480627419

Yes, WSJ thinks this SUV is a bargain at.... $72,000 for the base model. The S model is $83,000, and the model they tested is 'only' $94,600.

Highlights!
"2.3 tons of you-canít-catch-me, sexed up with handbag leather and pearl paint, and powered by a loquacious 3.0-liter turbo V-6"
"In addition to the air pillows at all four corners, the windshield and windows are made of acoustic-damping glass, a feature usually found over the $100,000 threshold. Oh, thank you very much."

16MPG.

Oh, and it is a 'bargain' because a Porsche Cayenne outfitted in a similar fashion would be over $100,000...

I was actually paging through the Maserati site after the other thread on the topic; I didn't know they made 'suvs' either.

But to be fair, if Maserati and Porsche sent me $100,000 cars to test drive, I would happily write nice things about them.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: ender on December 03, 2016, 08:39:30 PM
Sweet, my Chase card gives me a discount too.

Guess I should buy one, it's a bargain!
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: MgoSam on December 03, 2016, 10:01:34 PM
The thing about luxury cars is their upkeep. I could see myself considering buying a premium vehicle in the future if it weren't for the hefty ongoing expenses.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 04, 2016, 04:31:51 AM
The thing about luxury cars is their upkeep. I could see myself considering buying a premium vehicle in the future if it weren't for the hefty ongoing expenses.

Another good reason to lower the number of miles driven!
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: SnackDog on December 04, 2016, 06:16:06 AM
Ferrari builds the engine for this beast.  The cheapest Ferrari stickers at more than twice this price.  Thus, a relative screaming bargain if you require something fast that handles well to haul your stuff.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 04, 2016, 07:48:09 AM
Ferrari builds the engine for this beast.  The cheapest Ferrari stickers at more than twice this price.  Thus, a relative screaming bargain if you require something fast that handles well to haul your stuff.

Let's play that game. :) Let's pretend to be consumers and make excuses to buy insanely expensive cars. We need something fast that handles well with a lot of cargo space.

A Golf R or GTI has more cargo space. The R is all wheel drive with a sport tuned suspension, has the same 0-60, basically the same top speed, and given that it is significantly lighter and lower to the ground the R probably has better handling. The Golf R is less than half the price of this thing. I included the GTI because you can cheaply tune it to have similar performance minus the all wheel drive while keeping the price tag under 30k. You could even buy a used GTI and get the price into the mustachian appropriate range. A Ford Focus RS would also work.

So even if you needed something fast that handles well to haul your stuff there are much more affordable options. ;) 
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 04, 2016, 08:04:21 AM
Ferrari builds the engine for this beast.  The cheapest Ferrari stickers at more than twice this price.  Thus, a relative screaming bargain if you require something fast that handles well to haul your stuff.

Let's play that game. :) Let's pretend to be consumers and make excuses to buy insanely expensive cars. We need something fast that handles well with a lot of cargo space.

A Golf R or GTI has more cargo space. The R is all wheel drive with a sport tuned suspension, has the same 0-60, basically the same top speed, and given that it is significantly lighter and lower to the ground the R probably has better handling. The Golf R is less than half the price of this thing. I included the GTI because you can cheaply tune it to have similar performance minus the all wheel drive while keeping the price tag under 30k. You could even buy a used GTI and get the price into the mustachian appropriate range. A Ford Focus RS would also work.

So even if you needed something fast that handles well to haul your stuff there are much more affordable options. ;)

Bu...bu... but the dealer said it had a Ferrari engine! And it's 7% off - how many percent off is the GTI? 

:D Maybe I'm not very good at pretending to be a consumer.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Chris22 on December 04, 2016, 04:26:36 PM
Ferrari builds the engine for this beast.  The cheapest Ferrari stickers at more than twice this price.  Thus, a relative screaming bargain if you require something fast that handles well to haul your stuff.

Let's play that game. :) Let's pretend to be consumers and make excuses to buy insanely expensive cars. We need something fast that handles well with a lot of cargo space.

A Golf R or GTI has more cargo space. The R is all wheel drive with a sport tuned suspension, has the same 0-60, basically the same top speed, and given that it is significantly lighter and lower to the ground the R probably has better handling. The Golf R is less than half the price of this thing. I included the GTI because you can cheaply tune it to have similar performance minus the all wheel drive while keeping the price tag under 30k. You could even buy a used GTI and get the price into the mustachian appropriate range. A Ford Focus RS would also work.

So even if you needed something fast that handles well to haul your stuff there are much more affordable options. ;)

I'm not going to tell you the Maserati is a good buy, but let's not pretend a warmed-over Golf is a good substitute. That's like saying "this Spam is nearly the same as that filet because number of calories." 
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 04, 2016, 05:31:57 PM
But with just a little A1...
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2016, 05:54:13 PM
The thing about luxury cars is their upkeep. I could see myself considering buying a premium vehicle in the future if it weren't for the hefty ongoing expenses.

Just have to get the right one.  A Lexus will typically treat you well for a very, very long time (and can be found remarkably cheap on the used market!).
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: GetItRight on December 04, 2016, 05:57:08 PM
Very heavy with a tiny engine. Good luck getting more than 100k miles out of it. They probably make it perform decent not just with forced induction but with insanely low gearing and extra gears in the trans which is probably automatic... Good luck with the trans lasting more than 60k miles and it'll be a complex and expensive rebuild. Also, my 60s full size big block car that weights about the same better MPG, without overdrive or fancy electronic engine controls.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: GetItRight on December 04, 2016, 06:00:03 PM
I'm not going to tell you the Maserati is a good buy, but let's not pretend a warmed-over Golf is a good substitute. That's like saying "this Spam is nearly the same as that filet because number of calories."

Regarding teh food analogy, I'm a calories per dollar type of guy. Driving that hideous new POS would be torture. I'd rather have a base model Falcon or heaven forbid a Nova, and have at least a little pride and self respect regarding my conveyance.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2016, 06:01:35 PM
Very heavy with a tiny engine. Good luck getting more than 100k miles out of it. They probably make it perform decent not just with forced induction but with insanely low gearing and extra gears in the trans which is probably automatic... Good luck with the trans lasting more than 60k miles and it'll be a complex and expensive rebuild. Also, my 60s full size big block car that weights about the same better MPG, without overdrive or fancy electronic engine controls.
or emissions controls or safety equipment. :P
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: GetItRight on December 04, 2016, 06:13:51 PM
Actually it does have emissions controls and safety equipment... A PCV valve, collapsible steering column, and seatbelts, including shoulder belts, a frame, coil spring three link rear suspension, radial tires, dual circuit brakes. That is all the emissions and safety equipment I care to purchase or maintain.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 04, 2016, 07:37:29 PM
Actually it does have emissions controls and safety equipment... A PCV valve, collapsible steering column, and seatbelts, including shoulder belts, a frame, coil spring three link rear suspension, radial tires, dual circuit brakes. That is all the emissions and safety equipment I care to purchase or maintain.

That is effectively nothing compared to modern safety and emissions standards.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/11/california-cars-99-cleaner-than-in-1960s-but-smog-levels-still-high-study-says.html
Quote
Automotive emissions standards in California have resulted in cars that are 99% cleaner than they were 50 years ago, according to a new report.

You're probably spitting out 100x as much pollution as a new vehicle, and your chances of injury/death in the event of a crash are dramatically higher.  People like to ignore vast technology improvements when they start talking about how their old car gets just as good fuel economy as something new.  Modern cars have a phenomenal ability to protect occupants in a crash. You pay for that with additional weight, therefore lower fuel economy.  The Maserati gets 20mpg highway, with over 400hp/tq, AWD, leather, luxury everything, etc, and practically zero emissions when compared to something from generations past.

I drive a 25yo sports car - if I'm in a bad crash, I have a pretty good chance of dying.  Personal choice, and all...but don't pretend that a classic is remotely comparable to a modern vehicle in any way.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 05, 2016, 05:52:26 PM
I'm not going to tell you the Maserati is a good buy, but let's not pretend a warmed-over Golf is a good substitute. That's like saying "this Spam is nearly the same as that filet because number of calories."

It depends on what you are looking for. I don't care about hand bag quality italian leather or the brand symbol. If I was buying an expensive car for performance while also having cargo space I would want performance. I think a Golf R would actually be more fun to drive and it has the same cargo space. So to me it isn't like a filet VS spam. It's like a really good juicy burger when I'm in the mood for a burger VS paying a ridiculous amount for a well done(burnt) filet at some luxury upscale restaurant. I want the burger.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: MgoSam on December 05, 2016, 06:04:59 PM
The thing about luxury cars is their upkeep. I could see myself considering buying a premium vehicle in the future if it weren't for the hefty ongoing expenses.

Just have to get the right one.  A Lexus will typically treat you well for a very, very long time (and can be found remarkably cheap on the used market!).

I agree with you on Lexuses, I don't know any other luxury brands though that are that hands-off with maintenance. as a Toyota fan, I could see myself getting a Lexus someday.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 05, 2016, 07:51:57 PM
Actually it does have emissions controls and safety equipment... A PCV valve, collapsible steering column, and seatbelts, including shoulder belts, a frame, coil spring three link rear suspension, radial tires, dual circuit brakes. That is all the emissions and safety equipment I care to purchase or maintain.

That is effectively nothing compared to modern safety and emissions standards.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/11/california-cars-99-cleaner-than-in-1960s-but-smog-levels-still-high-study-says.html
Quote
Automotive emissions standards in California have resulted in cars that are 99% cleaner than they were 50 years ago, according to a new report.

You're probably spitting out 100x as much pollution as a new vehicle, and your chances of injury/death in the event of a crash are dramatically higher.  People like to ignore vast technology improvements when they start talking about how their old car gets just as good fuel economy as something new.  Modern cars have a phenomenal ability to protect occupants in a crash. You pay for that with additional weight, therefore lower fuel economy.  The Maserati gets 20mpg highway, with over 400hp/tq, AWD, leather, luxury everything, etc, and practically zero emissions when compared to something from generations past.

I drive a 25yo sports car - if I'm in a bad crash, I have a pretty good chance of dying.  Personal choice, and all...but don't pretend that a classic is remotely comparable to a modern vehicle in any way.

Pictures? Love a good sports car.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 05, 2016, 11:08:43 PM
Quote
"2.3 tons of you-canít-catch-me, sexed up with handbag leather and pearl paint, and powered by a loquacious 3.0-liter turbo V-6"

Ferrari builds the engine for this beast.  The cheapest Ferrari stickers at more than twice this price.  Thus, a relative screaming bargain if you require something fast that handles well to haul your stuff.

Sure, Ferrari might build the 3.0 v6 turbo engine, and I'm sure it sounds good, but let's be honest.

A $500 junkyard 5.3 iron block from GM is going to be more powerful, have more torque, be 50x as reliable especially considering that it's NA, and if you stick some headers on it, it'll sound meaty as fuck.

Throw a basic hot cam and maybe basic heads on the fucker, and you're looking at 400 wheel horsepower. $1000 buys you 100 more horsepower for whatever SUV or truck you want to stick it into. "you-can't-catch-me" my ass, the fucking thing has a 5.8 second 0-60.

New v6 camry is faster.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 06, 2016, 12:07:00 AM
Actually it does have emissions controls and safety equipment... A PCV valve, collapsible steering column, and seatbelts, including shoulder belts, a frame, coil spring three link rear suspension, radial tires, dual circuit brakes. That is all the emissions and safety equipment I care to purchase or maintain.

That is effectively nothing compared to modern safety and emissions standards.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/11/california-cars-99-cleaner-than-in-1960s-but-smog-levels-still-high-study-says.html
Quote
Automotive emissions standards in California have resulted in cars that are 99% cleaner than they were 50 years ago, according to a new report.

You're probably spitting out 100x as much pollution as a new vehicle, and your chances of injury/death in the event of a crash are dramatically higher.  People like to ignore vast technology improvements when they start talking about how their old car gets just as good fuel economy as something new.  Modern cars have a phenomenal ability to protect occupants in a crash. You pay for that with additional weight, therefore lower fuel economy.  The Maserati gets 20mpg highway, with over 400hp/tq, AWD, leather, luxury everything, etc, and practically zero emissions when compared to something from generations past.

I drive a 25yo sports car - if I'm in a bad crash, I have a pretty good chance of dying.  Personal choice, and all...but don't pretend that a classic is remotely comparable to a modern vehicle in any way.

Pictures? Love a good sports car.

Of course! (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-the-stupidest-thing-you're-lusting-after-right-now/msg1328004/#msg1328004) :) Dyno sheet, pic, and build documentation is linked there.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: GetItRight on December 06, 2016, 06:32:27 PM
Actually it does have emissions controls and safety equipment... A PCV valve, collapsible steering column, and seatbelts, including shoulder belts, a frame, coil spring three link rear suspension, radial tires, dual circuit brakes. That is all the emissions and safety equipment I care to purchase or maintain.

That is effectively nothing compared to modern safety and emissions standards.

I wouldn't say nothing, regarding safety at least. Environmentally it is a beneficial to use something for its entire useful life rather than be part of the disposable society that just throws away everything. Seatbelts and a collapsible steering column in a car with a frame were huge advancements in safety... The cheap and easy things that gained massive improvements in crash survivability, the low hanging fruit if you will. Either way, I am well aware of all the differences between mid-late 60s technology and 90s-present technology, it is a conscious decision to drive 60s iron.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/11/california-cars-99-cleaner-than-in-1960s-but-smog-levels-still-high-study-says.html
Quote
Automotive emissions standards in California have resulted in cars that are 99% cleaner than they were 50 years ago, according to a new report.

You're probably spitting out 100x as much pollution as a new vehicle, and your chances of injury/death in the event of a crash are dramatically higher.  People like to ignore vast technology improvements when they start talking about how their old car gets just as good fuel economy as something new.  Modern cars have a phenomenal ability to protect occupants in a crash. You pay for that with additional weight, therefore lower fuel economy.  The Maserati gets 20mpg highway, with over 400hp/tq, AWD, leather, luxury everything, etc, and practically zero emissions when compared to something from generations past.

I drive a 25yo sports car - if I'm in a bad crash, I have a pretty good chance of dying.  Personal choice, and all...but don't pretend that a classic is remotely comparable to a modern vehicle in any way.

Tailpipe pollution is not as great a concern of mine as compared to teh pollution of treating a vehicle as disposable, the massive waste, plastics, electronics, and all sorts of toxic chemicals that go into landfills and leach into groundwater supplies as well as the pollution producing new cars, particularly now that massive batteries are part of many. Yes much of the "recycling" waste is sent overseas and a big industry for poor third world countries, but it is also environmentally devastating in those countries causing many health issues. As for tailpipe emissions, there has been very little reduction since the 90s. Since then all the low hanging fruit iss gone (precise air/fuel ratios, catalytic converters, EGR) and not every new gain is fractions of a percent at a tremendous cost both monetarily and in driveability. No thanks.

As for comparability of a classic to a modern car. In MPG terms, absolutely it's comparable. Other than overdrive transmissions there has been virtually zero improvement in MPG thanks in large part to big government regulation making cars massively overweight. More MPG is less volume of fuel burned is less volume of exhaust out and less total parts of pollutants discharged, for waht that's worth, and of course more economical to operate to far as lower TCO from reduced fuel consumption and cheaper/faster repairs and maintenance from less complexity.

So far as safety, true crash survivability will not be as good in a 50 year old car as a brand new car, however crash avoidance is certainly better. Have you driven a car newer than the 80s or 90? If so you will immediately notice you can't see anything, massive blind spots everywhere. To make matters worse with absurd government mandates on MPG that don't align with DOT mandates on "safety" or reality in general, mirrors get smaller and more useless in part for the quest for more MPG and in part because government mandates they be magnifying rather that flat or panoramic.... Something particularly useful when driving with blind spots the size of Texas. This significantly increases the likelihood of being involved in a crash, a terrible hazard to the driver, occupants, and other motorists.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 06, 2016, 06:43:26 PM
Actually it does have emissions controls and safety equipment... A PCV valve, collapsible steering column, and seatbelts, including shoulder belts, a frame, coil spring three link rear suspension, radial tires, dual circuit brakes. That is all the emissions and safety equipment I care to purchase or maintain.

That is effectively nothing compared to modern safety and emissions standards.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/11/california-cars-99-cleaner-than-in-1960s-but-smog-levels-still-high-study-says.html
Quote
Automotive emissions standards in California have resulted in cars that are 99% cleaner than they were 50 years ago, according to a new report.

You're probably spitting out 100x as much pollution as a new vehicle, and your chances of injury/death in the event of a crash are dramatically higher.  People like to ignore vast technology improvements when they start talking about how their old car gets just as good fuel economy as something new.  Modern cars have a phenomenal ability to protect occupants in a crash. You pay for that with additional weight, therefore lower fuel economy.  The Maserati gets 20mpg highway, with over 400hp/tq, AWD, leather, luxury everything, etc, and practically zero emissions when compared to something from generations past.

I drive a 25yo sports car - if I'm in a bad crash, I have a pretty good chance of dying.  Personal choice, and all...but don't pretend that a classic is remotely comparable to a modern vehicle in any way.

Pictures? Love a good sports car.

Of course! (http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-the-stupidest-thing-you're-lusting-after-right-now/msg1328004/#msg1328004) :) Dyno sheet, pic, and build documentation is linked there.

Oh my..  that is nice...
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 06, 2016, 09:13:00 PM
Actually it does have emissions controls and safety equipment... A PCV valve, collapsible steering column, and seatbelts, including shoulder belts, a frame, coil spring three link rear suspension, radial tires, dual circuit brakes. That is all the emissions and safety equipment I care to purchase or maintain.

That is effectively nothing compared to modern safety and emissions standards.

I wouldn't say nothing, regarding safety at least. Environmentally it is a beneficial to use something for its entire useful life rather than be part of the disposable society that just throws away everything. Seatbelts and a collapsible steering column in a car with a frame were huge advancements in safety... The cheap and easy things that gained massive improvements in crash survivability, the low hanging fruit if you will. Either way, I am well aware of all the differences between mid-late 60s technology and 90s-present technology, it is a conscious decision to drive 60s iron.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/11/california-cars-99-cleaner-than-in-1960s-but-smog-levels-still-high-study-says.html
Quote
Automotive emissions standards in California have resulted in cars that are 99% cleaner than they were 50 years ago, according to a new report.

You're probably spitting out 100x as much pollution as a new vehicle, and your chances of injury/death in the event of a crash are dramatically higher.  People like to ignore vast technology improvements when they start talking about how their old car gets just as good fuel economy as something new.  Modern cars have a phenomenal ability to protect occupants in a crash. You pay for that with additional weight, therefore lower fuel economy.  The Maserati gets 20mpg highway, with over 400hp/tq, AWD, leather, luxury everything, etc, and practically zero emissions when compared to something from generations past.

I drive a 25yo sports car - if I'm in a bad crash, I have a pretty good chance of dying.  Personal choice, and all...but don't pretend that a classic is remotely comparable to a modern vehicle in any way.

Tailpipe pollution is not as great a concern of mine as compared to teh pollution of treating a vehicle as disposable, the massive waste, plastics, electronics, and all sorts of toxic chemicals that go into landfills and leach into groundwater supplies as well as the pollution producing new cars, particularly now that massive batteries are part of many. Yes much of the "recycling" waste is sent overseas and a big industry for poor third world countries, but it is also environmentally devastating in those countries causing many health issues. As for tailpipe emissions, there has been very little reduction since the 90s. Since then all the low hanging fruit iss gone (precise air/fuel ratios, catalytic converters, EGR) and not every new gain is fractions of a percent at a tremendous cost both monetarily and in driveability. No thanks.

As for comparability of a classic to a modern car. In MPG terms, absolutely it's comparable. Other than overdrive transmissions there has been virtually zero improvement in MPG thanks in large part to big government regulation making cars massively overweight. More MPG is less volume of fuel burned is less volume of exhaust out and less total parts of pollutants discharged, for waht that's worth, and of course more economical to operate to far as lower TCO from reduced fuel consumption and cheaper/faster repairs and maintenance from less complexity.

So far as safety, true crash survivability will not be as good in a 50 year old car as a brand new car, however crash avoidance is certainly better. Have you driven a car newer than the 80s or 90? If so you will immediately notice you can't see anything, massive blind spots everywhere. To make matters worse with absurd government mandates on MPG that don't align with DOT mandates on "safety" or reality in general, mirrors get smaller and more useless in part for the quest for more MPG and in part because government mandates they be magnifying rather that flat or panoramic.... Something particularly useful when driving with blind spots the size of Texas. This significantly increases the likelihood of being involved in a crash, a terrible hazard to the driver, occupants, and other motorists.

http://acrs.org.au/files/arsrpe/RS010009.pdf
https://www.reference.com/vehicles/many-lives-airbags-save-year-aa991e4be5e4d2d6
http://www.safercar.gov/Vehicle-Shoppers/Air-Bags/Side%E2%80%93Impact-Air-Bags#4
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/g2005/22-brutal-crash-tests-video
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2014/0804/Which-is-greener-Old-car-or-new-car

I'm going to continue to drive my older car too, but to pretend it's nearly as safe as something new because it has seatbelts would be sticking my head in the sand.  I would much rather be hit in either of my 2005+ vehicles (with dual front and side curtain airbags) than in my older car.

If you feel that modern cars are unsafe because of increased blind spots, I would urge you to adjust your mirrors properly, both for your safety and the safety of others around you.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mirrors-to-avoid-blind-spots

In case anyone hasn't seen the IIHS crash test between 1959 and 2009 vehicles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_r5UJrxcck

Oh my..  that is nice...
Thanks!  I have a pattern of becoming exasperated with it and wondering if I should sell, but then I price out something comparable (mid-engine, RWD, and ~500hp) and I decide to keep it again, lol.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Making Cookies on December 07, 2016, 07:53:30 AM
I own two antiques 40 and 50 years old. I consider them to be slightly safer than motorcycles. As for emissions they aren't driven enough to worry about.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: RWD on December 07, 2016, 08:12:11 AM
The Maserati is a steal at less than half the price of the Bentley Bentayga! ($229k)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: SnackDog on December 07, 2016, 09:09:16 AM
It's all relative. Don't tell me that Beluga caviar at $10/oz is not a bargain just because you can buy Chicken-of-the-sea tuna for $.59/can (or fish for your own in a lake) and feel just as full after eating it.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 07, 2016, 12:29:28 PM
It's all relative. Don't tell me that Beluga caviar at $10/oz is not a bargain just because you can buy Chicken-of-the-sea tuna for $.59/can (or fish for your own in a lake) and feel just as full after eating it.

I just eat the crackers it's normally served on. :D
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: MgoSam on December 07, 2016, 01:07:22 PM
It's all relative. Don't tell me that Beluga caviar at $10/oz is not a bargain just because you can buy Chicken-of-the-sea tuna for $.59/can (or fish for your own in a lake) and feel just as full after eating it.

Yup! I mean, c'mon some people on MMM brag about being able to live on $1000 a month. What the heck are the blowing their money on, lobster? I know people in India that live on WAY less!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on December 07, 2016, 03:23:19 PM
Another option might be to get a small jet turbine, with afterburner, and weld it to the frame of my Scion.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 07, 2016, 05:55:12 PM
Another option might be to get a small jet turbine, with afterburner, and weld it to the frame of my Scion.

People have done this. Small jet engines are somewhere between relatively cheap and relatively expensive, depending on your idea of what a jet engine costs and your budget... you can get a 30 pound thrust jet engine for like a thousand bucks.

Thirty pounds of thrust isn't really that much though!

People have attached ~45 or 60 pound thrust jet engines to their bicycles.

Anyways, the funny thing about these jet engines is that they don't really accelerate that quickly. However, they feel like they have limitless power to keep accelerating, especially on something like a bike. Until air resistance becomes as strong as the thrust of the engine, it'll just keep pulling - unlike the feeling of a gas powered engine in a car, which will stop pulling at a fairly low speed for most cars.

The real downside is that small jet engines absolutely drink jet fuel. You're looking at around a liter per minute, or about fifteen gallons an hour, of jet fuel. Not nearly as efficient as the big fat fuckers on planes.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 07, 2016, 07:25:06 PM
Another option might be to get a small jet turbine, with afterburner, and weld it to the frame of my Scion.

A guy got a Darwin Award* doing something similar. His car accelerated uncontrollably, the brakes melted, it took off like a plane...




*Awarded to the person of the year who died in the dumbest way.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 07, 2016, 07:47:29 PM
Another option might be to get a small jet turbine, with afterburner, and weld it to the frame of my Scion.

A guy got a Darwin Award* doing something similar. His car accelerated uncontrollably, the brakes melted, it took off like a plane...




*Awarded to the person of the year who died in the dumbest way.

Saw a stunt guy perform on a motorcycle with a jet engine. Loud as hell. Pretty impressive engineering feat though, if completely impractical.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 07, 2016, 09:42:15 PM
Indexer, I do believe that's an urban legend.

Jet engines are indeed super loud, but small ones don't provide _that_ much thrust. If I had to guess, motorcycle guy was using it for showmanship.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: mwulff on December 08, 2016, 12:22:31 AM
At that price point I would just get a Tesla Model X and be done with it. Lower running costs, better for the environment and best of all: You're not the pretentious a**hole in a big gas-guzzling suv.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 08, 2016, 05:38:06 AM
Indexer, I do believe that's an urban legend.

Jet engines are indeed super loud, but small ones don't provide _that_ much thrust. If I had to guess, motorcycle guy was using it for showmanship.


It was pretty close to this. (Maybe same guy? Who knows) Totally for showmanship, agreed.


(http://www.dragtimes.com/images/6820-2003-%20Other-.jpg)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: SnackDog on December 08, 2016, 06:01:43 AM
The most well-known jet-powered motorcycle was piloted by a stunt driver named Evel Knievel into the Snake River Canyon in 1974.

(http://d2rormqr1qwzpz.cloudfront.net/photos/2015/02/05/73102-evel_knievel34-x365.jpg)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Chris22 on December 08, 2016, 07:40:06 AM
At that price point I would just get a Tesla Model X and be done with it. Lower running costs, better for the environment and best of all: You're not the pretentious a**hole in a big gas-guzzling suv.

I mean, I'm a Tesla fan, but at this point, they're starting to corner the pretentious asshole market.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 08, 2016, 07:45:15 AM
At that price point I would just get a Tesla Model X and be done with it. Lower running costs, better for the environment and best of all: You're not the pretentious a**hole in a big gas-guzzling suv.

I mean, I'm a Tesla fan, but at this point, they're starting to corner the pretentious asshole market.

Don't forget your  Tesla branded leather jacket (http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/apparel/products/womens-modena-leather-jacket)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on December 08, 2016, 11:15:03 AM
Another option might be to get a small jet turbine, with afterburner, and weld it to the frame of my Scion.

People have done this. Small jet engines are somewhere between relatively cheap and relatively expensive, depending on your idea of what a jet engine costs and your budget... you can get a 30 pound thrust jet engine for like a thousand bucks.

Thirty pounds of thrust isn't really that much though!

People have attached ~45 or 60 pound thrust jet engines to their bicycles.

Anyways, the funny thing about these jet engines is that they don't really accelerate that quickly. However, they feel like they have limitless power to keep accelerating, especially on something like a bike. Until air resistance becomes as strong as the thrust of the engine, it'll just keep pulling - unlike the feeling of a gas powered engine in a car, which will stop pulling at a fairly low speed for most cars.

The real downside is that small jet engines absolutely drink jet fuel. You're looking at around a liter per minute, or about fifteen gallons an hour, of jet fuel. Not nearly as efficient as the big fat fuckers on planes.

Oh, I wouldn't fuel it or actually RUN it... bit of an impact liability really, in case of an accident, I mean who wants jet fuel everywhere... but it would look badass and that would be my entire purpose. At a cost of about $1k plus some bits and pieces, it would set me back far less than a fancy car would, if the car were purchased solely for the purpose of impressing others which is regrettably what most of the fancy brands are for.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Digital Dogma on December 08, 2016, 12:57:01 PM
Another option might be to get a small jet turbine, with afterburner, and weld it to the frame of my Scion.

A guy got a Darwin Award* doing something similar. His car accelerated uncontrollably, the brakes melted, it took off like a plane...




*Awarded to the person of the year who died in the dumbest way.
Pretty sure this was referring to the urban legend about the car fitted with solid rocket boosters, which are a much different beast than jets or turbo-shaft engines.
Once you start a solid rocket booster, it will continue to fire till its exhausted all of its fuel, and you can not extinguish it.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: mwulff on December 08, 2016, 01:21:22 PM
At that price point I would just get a Tesla Model X and be done with it. Lower running costs, better for the environment and best of all: You're not the pretentious a**hole in a big gas-guzzling suv.

I mean, I'm a Tesla fan, but at this point, they're starting to corner the pretentious asshole market.

It's funny, here in Denmark most Teslas are looked upon as the car of the people who really care about the environment. Still better than a Lexus.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Making Cookies on December 08, 2016, 01:29:58 PM
Another option might be to get a small jet turbine, with afterburner, and weld it to the frame of my Scion.

Don't forget to budget to replace the front ends of the cars behind that you melt with your turbine engine exhaust. I built a turbine out of a car turbo once. Not useful but it made some cool sounds.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Chris22 on December 08, 2016, 03:03:39 PM
At that price point I would just get a Tesla Model X and be done with it. Lower running costs, better for the environment and best of all: You're not the pretentious a**hole in a big gas-guzzling suv.

I mean, I'm a Tesla fan, but at this point, they're starting to corner the pretentious asshole market.

It's funny, here in Denmark most Teslas are looked upon as the car of the people who really care about the environment.

Yes, in a very smug and self-righteous way.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 08, 2016, 08:44:23 PM
I'm not going to tell you the Maserati is a good buy, but let's not pretend a warmed-over Golf is a good substitute. That's like saying "this Spam is nearly the same as that filet because number of calories."

Fun fact!

The Front Wheel Drive production car track record on the Nurburgring is 7 minutes, 47.19 seconds. It was just set a few days ago by, what did you call it, a warmed-over Golf?   :D  To be exact it was a VW Golf GTI Clubsport.

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--V7VQF1Ws--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/wvujuewwisif10oteeyx.jpg)
source:http://jalopnik.com/watch-the-gti-clubsport-set-a-nurburgring-record-two-se-1789788529

That time puts it in the same league as Corvettes, Lamborghinis, Porsches, etc.  Again, the GTI is much much cheaper.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 09, 2016, 02:07:42 AM
No need to exaggerate...

https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

7:47 is a good 25 or 30 seconds slower than the corvettes, lambos, porsches, etc.

It's like saying that I'm in the same league as michael phelps because my 50 meter time is only six seconds slower than his.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: fantabulous on December 09, 2016, 10:40:52 AM
It's a bargain considering the investment it represents. Men and women of a certain feather will equate my status symbol with virility and sexual prowess. During the useful status life of the vehicle, I will be able to sex my way closer to FI.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 09, 2016, 02:00:45 PM
That is 100% accurate. Carry on.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 09, 2016, 04:18:40 PM
No need to exaggerate...

Maybe you should look at your own source. There are Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches, Corvettes, etc. that are all slower than the GTI. Sure it's not as fast as the very nicest models, like a Lamborghini Aventador LP 750, but it is faster than some of the base model cars like the Porsche 911, Lamborghini  Gallardo, and Ferrari California.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 09, 2016, 08:03:26 PM
I mean... if we're gonna debate it...

1)

Most of the cars it beats are either quite old, or not really intended for racing. The Ferrari California is just... not a car made for racing. This GTI was literally built for 'ring times, the California is built for rich people to drive (you guessed it) nice roads in California. The cars made to go fast, though, are all ~10 years old on that list, and/or big heavy sedans.

2)

The car was literally built just for fast 'ring times. It's very, very limited production - they're making 400 of them? It's been set up precisely for that road. It's also stripped out, like a race car, rather than a production car. It's not a great comparison to a general purpose fast car sold to anyone in large quantities... with amenities...

3)

If we're comparing cars that there are only going to be 400 of, that are essentially factory-modified and stripped out for ring times, then we can compare people modifying their own cars. Shit, for half the price of this new car, you can buy something older and make it faster.



Now, VW factory-modifying and selling 400 of these is pretty cool, but it's mostly a publicity stunt. Any company can strip out, upgrade, and tune the suspension of a somewhat sporty car for fast 'ring times. Especially if they don't care whether they make any money doing it, since the production numbers are so low.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV That’s a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 10, 2016, 06:41:55 AM
@Gimp:  You do have a point there. I didn't pay as much attention to the years the other cars were made. Some of them are older. The whole reason the GTI even came up was to prove if you really did need a fast car to haul your crap there are significantly cheaper options than a Maserati. This option just happens to have a record under its belt. :)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 10, 2016, 07:05:32 PM
Plus, since it's stripped out, you have even more room to haul your stuff!

Kids complain? Just fucking floor it! Or, better yet, since it's basically a race car, make them wear a helmet. Can't hear shit with the visor down. Plus, what's safer than a racing helmet in a car?

(As much as I love older cars, they got _way_ faster recently. And I mean, my buick is faster than some older ferraris. My corvette is faster than almost every ferrari ever, with the exception of the best older ones and all the newest ones, but then, it is modified. And both of those are from the early 2000s - their equivalent models today are significantly faster still.)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: GetItRight on December 11, 2016, 06:58:39 AM
I'm going to continue to drive my older car too, but to pretend it's nearly as safe as something new because it has seatbelts would be sticking my head in the sand.

If you feel that modern cars are unsafe because of increased blind spots, I would urge you to adjust your mirrors properly, both for your safety and the safety of others around you.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mirrors-to-avoid-blind-spots

There are two measures of safety. One is crash survivability, new cars are overwhelmingly safer in that regard than cars from 50 years ago. The other is crash avoidability, or likelihood of being involved in a wreck. In that regard new cars are overwhelmingly worse. Blind spots are huge, in many models there's far more area around the vehicle that cannot be seen by the drive than can be seen.

I prefer to avoid being involved in a wreck at all, and will not purchase a vehicle which has massive blind spots. I know how to adjust mirrors properly to maximize visibility. Thanks for EPA and DOT regulation blind spots are huge and mirrors, even properly adjusted, and virtually useless compared to mirrors on older vehicles as they now must be tiny and have glass that magnifies the reflected image instead of giving a broader view, except perhaps the now common tiny convex mirrors that take more than a quick glance to determine is there might be a vehicle in the massive blind spot. It takes more concentration, effort, and time to assess the space around a new car and honestly I find it exhausting and stressful. I will not pay the rich man's new car premium price for those and other mandates by government, I only buy vehicles made before these laws and am likely less safe on the road but that is what government does, removes choice. Car companies build the cars that government wants, not that customers want. At least I have good visibility and am less likely to be involved in a wreck.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Indexer on December 11, 2016, 09:53:31 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me. 
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 11, 2016, 03:46:26 PM
I'm going to continue to drive my older car too, but to pretend it's nearly as safe as something new because it has seatbelts would be sticking my head in the sand.

If you feel that modern cars are unsafe because of increased blind spots, I would urge you to adjust your mirrors properly, both for your safety and the safety of others around you.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mirrors-to-avoid-blind-spots

There are two measures of safety. One is crash survivability, new cars are overwhelmingly safer in that regard than cars from 50 years ago. The other is crash avoidability, or likelihood of being involved in a wreck. In that regard new cars are overwhelmingly worse. Blind spots are huge, in many models there's far more area around the vehicle that cannot be seen by the drive than can be seen.

I prefer to avoid being involved in a wreck at all, and will not purchase a vehicle which has massive blind spots. I know how to adjust mirrors properly to maximize visibility. Thanks for EPA and DOT regulation blind spots are huge and mirrors, even properly adjusted, and virtually useless compared to mirrors on older vehicles as they now must be tiny and have glass that magnifies the reflected image instead of giving a broader view, except perhaps the now common tiny convex mirrors that take more than a quick glance to determine is there might be a vehicle in the massive blind spot. It takes more concentration, effort, and time to assess the space around a new car and honestly I find it exhausting and stressful. I will not pay the rich man's new car premium price for those and other mandates by government, I only buy vehicles made before these laws and am likely less safe on the road but that is what government does, removes choice. Car companies build the cars that government wants, not that customers want. At least I have good visibility and am less likely to be involved in a wreck.
I have no idea what sorts of newer cars you have driven and think are so terrible, but OK.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 12, 2016, 03:46:43 AM
I think this link to  auto crash rates (http://www.statisticbrain.com/car-crash-fatality-statistics-2) show that cars are not becoming less safe from a survivability stand point... The odds of dying in a car crash have gone down over time, so the increase in safety has clearly outweighed the possible increase in crash likelihood.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Chris22 on December 12, 2016, 05:22:54 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me.

The problem with the Fit is that even if you see a pending accident, it doesn't have enough power to do something like get out of the way. It is the very definition of "gutless". 
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Making Cookies on December 12, 2016, 10:10:02 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me.

I think there are some very sensible and safe cars out there but they aren't hulking p/u trucks with sides that require a step ladder to reach, and they aren't muscle cars.  I'm not a fan of the long three row vehicles with the dark tinted glass. Some of those are wholly reliant on the reverse camera and mirrors.

How about an import wagon? Reasonable sized vehicle, plenty of glass and the windows are a reasonable size. Can still carry boxes or passengers.

I question the need for 500 HP. ;)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: mwulff on December 14, 2016, 09:01:53 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me.

The problem with the Fit is that even if you see a pending accident, it doesn't have enough power to do something like get out of the way. It is the very definition of "gutless".

I call b***shit on the "get out of the way". It is highly unlikely that you will encounter any situation where sheer power will make a meaningful difference to your chances of avoiding an accident. The US version of the Honda Fit has more horsepower than the average european car and you don't see tons of "power-limited" accidents on our roads.

The limiting factor is human reaction time, not the cars performance.

What will keep you from having an accident is looking ahead, thinking ahead and slowing down a bit.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on December 14, 2016, 09:59:21 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me.

The problem with the Fit is that even if you see a pending accident, it doesn't have enough power to do something like get out of the way. It is the very definition of "gutless".

I call b***shit on the "get out of the way". It is highly unlikely that you will encounter any situation where sheer power will make a meaningful difference to your chances of avoiding an accident. The US version of the Honda Fit has more horsepower than the average european car and you don't see tons of "power-limited" accidents on our roads.

The limiting factor is human reaction time, not the cars performance.

What will keep you from having an accident is looking ahead, thinking ahead and slowing down a bit.

I've been driving more than 25 years, and have to admit that the vast majority of accidents I've avoided have been by doing exactly as you say: looking ahead, thinking ahead, and slowing down. There have only been a few incidents I've had to stunt-drive or stunt-ride my way out of. However, at no point was I driving a high performance vehicle.

The outside slingshot turn to thread the needle between the wall and the 10-car pileup on a banked freeway overpass covered in ice was something I pulled off in a Scion. When I saw the line of cars ahead of me hydroplane into each other on the banked right turn despite having their brake lights on, I knew there was no traction and nowhere to go unless I wanted to either plow into someone or get hit by the people behind me. So instead of braking, I goosed the motor to build up all the speed I could, lane changed left to maximize lateral drift space and use what was left of the slipstream from the dumbass ahead of me who were trying to brake, and drove as hard as I could the wall in front of me knowing I was going to be pulled sideways anyway due to gravity and the slick surface. When the inevitable skid started I stayed off my brakes, kept the wheels going fast, and cleared the wreckage by a few feet. From there I let the car coast into a turn, steered in the direction of the skid to keep the car from fishtailing, and accelerated out of the turn. No brakes at all; you can't do that on a slick surface. I couldn't have done it if I hadn't flipped burgers for years at a racetrack and listened to the professional drivers talk. Of course there are no right turns or ice driving in CASCAR. Some of the drivers and crew would be talking shop, and sometimes there were conversations about how so-and-so did this or that in a big NASCAR or Formula 1 race. I don't know whether any of them actually drove or crewed there. Some of the older ones probably did.

In the same toaster, I also managed to avoid a sedan driver on a Texas freeway who approached from behind and then proceeded to lane change into us. There was a bit of a half-lane shoulder between us and the cement retaining wall, so to keep my daughter and her grandmother from being crushed I edged into the shoulder, downshifted, and hit the gas. The Scion had more than enough power to get us three-quarters of a car length ahead at highway speed before the other car was in our lane where we used to be. It didn't turn into us getting PIT'ed, crushed, or sideswiped at highway speeds.

Dodging a wrong-way semi driver who was passing in my lane on a 2-lane Saskatchewan highway with no shoulder was something I managed on a 500-cc Honda Shadow 500 during a not-quite-TransCanada solo ride that I refer to as my "Bat Out Of Halifax tour". One big rig was passing another at night and he messed up his distance calculation which is easy to do out in the middle of nowhere. Both drivers realized the problem. The driver being passed hit his brakes as hard as he could without jackknifing, and the driver doing the passing accelerated into the lane change. I took the throttle off to bleed off speed using the engine, hit the line and balanced the bike's wheels on it, on the line, ducked to avoid the window, and just barely felt the rear part of the trailer whip by me less than a hand's span away. I don't know if I'd have made it if the other drivers hadn't done their part, but again, a 500-cc cruiser isn't an overpowered vehicle.

The point I'm trying to make is that when it comes to driving out of a bad situation I don't think people are buying much with the overpowered vehicles. Unless you're a Formula 1 driver who needs the extra power to compete against other overpowered vehicles, extra horsepower isn't going to keep you out of trouble. What I have is obscenely fast reaction time, because my body responds differently to adrenalin: it relaxes, so I don't lose my fine motor control and I'm not working against my own body if I have to move. It also allows me to regularly make decisions like: "save your eye by turning your head in exactly this direction", "get your face out of the way of that large fireball", or "no, the cutter is slipping but DO NOT grab the oscillating blades with your fingers". In my opinion, compared to buying extra horsepower for the car, a better value for the dollar would be for the driver to spend a few years learning to physically relax under pressure. That's what I'm conditioning my daughter to do in the car: remain relaxed under pressure.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: RWD on December 14, 2016, 10:02:13 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me.

The problem with the Fit is that even if you see a pending accident, it doesn't have enough power to do something like get out of the way. It is the very definition of "gutless".

I call b***shit on the "get out of the way". It is highly unlikely that you will encounter any situation where sheer power will make a meaningful difference to your chances of avoiding an accident. The US version of the Honda Fit has more horsepower than the average european car and you don't see tons of "power-limited" accidents on our roads.

The limiting factor is human reaction time, not the cars performance.

What will keep you from having an accident is looking ahead, thinking ahead and slowing down a bit.

Well, there was this crash avoidance using acceleration last month: http://jalopnik.com/this-tesla-driver-saved-himself-from-a-crash-using-his-1789138667

But I agree that it's rare. I'd be more concerned with merging safely onto the highway with short on-ramps.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 14, 2016, 10:21:10 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me.

The problem with the Fit is that even if you see a pending accident, it doesn't have enough power to do something like get out of the way. It is the very definition of "gutless".

I call b***shit on the "get out of the way". It is highly unlikely that you will encounter any situation where sheer power will make a meaningful difference to your chances of avoiding an accident. The US version of the Honda Fit has more horsepower than the average european car and you don't see tons of "power-limited" accidents on our roads.

The limiting factor is human reaction time, not the cars performance.

What will keep you from having an accident is looking ahead, thinking ahead and slowing down a bit.

Well, there was this crash avoidance using acceleration last month: http://jalopnik.com/this-tesla-driver-saved-himself-from-a-crash-using-his-1789138667

But I agree that it's rare. I'd be more concerned with merging safely onto the highway with short on-ramps.

I  never fully appreciated that until I moved to northern NJ. Stop signs right at the edge of 60mph traffic are a little unnerving if you don't have any power.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: RWD on December 14, 2016, 10:49:29 AM
@GetitRight:  I'm not saying this applies to ALL new cars, but have you been in a Honda Fit?  The top half of the car is basically all glass. This is especially true on the 2008 models. I don't own one, but I use to drive one fairly regularly and was always impressed at  how much I could see around me.

The problem with the Fit is that even if you see a pending accident, it doesn't have enough power to do something like get out of the way. It is the very definition of "gutless".

I call b***shit on the "get out of the way". It is highly unlikely that you will encounter any situation where sheer power will make a meaningful difference to your chances of avoiding an accident. The US version of the Honda Fit has more horsepower than the average european car and you don't see tons of "power-limited" accidents on our roads.

The limiting factor is human reaction time, not the cars performance.

What will keep you from having an accident is looking ahead, thinking ahead and slowing down a bit.

Well, there was this crash avoidance using acceleration last month: http://jalopnik.com/this-tesla-driver-saved-himself-from-a-crash-using-his-1789138667

But I agree that it's rare. I'd be more concerned with merging safely onto the highway with short on-ramps.

I  never fully appreciated that until I moved to northern NJ. Stop signs right at the edge of 60mph traffic are a little unnerving if you don't have any power.

This stupid on-ramp... (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.1770289,-110.9451649,246m/data=!3m1!1e3). Judging by the map scale you get about 100 ft from the tightest part of the loop (~25 mph?) to the point where you're side-by-side with traffic. Speed limit is 65 mph here. Meanwhile some of the traffic is trying to get off the highway at the same time, so you actually have to be worried about being rear-ended before you've even merged over. Our 250 horsepower Subaru Legacy GT was only just barely adequate to feel safe.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: JLee on December 14, 2016, 11:06:43 AM
This stupid on-ramp... (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.1770289,-110.9451649,246m/data=!3m1!1e3). Judging by the map scale you get about 100 ft from the tightest part of the loop (~25 mph?) to the point where you're side-by-side with traffic. Speed limit is 65 mph here. Meanwhile some of the traffic is trying to get off the highway at the same time, so you actually have to be worried about being rear-ended before you've even merged over. Our 250 horsepower Subaru Legacy GT was only just barely adequate to feel safe.

Check this one out:

Street view (http://i.imgur.com/VCtoGbZ.png)

Overhead (http://i.imgur.com/GST0DDu.png)
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: RWD on December 14, 2016, 11:22:15 AM
This stupid on-ramp... (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.1770289,-110.9451649,246m/data=!3m1!1e3). Judging by the map scale you get about 100 ft from the tightest part of the loop (~25 mph?) to the point where you're side-by-side with traffic. Speed limit is 65 mph here. Meanwhile some of the traffic is trying to get off the highway at the same time, so you actually have to be worried about being rear-ended before you've even merged over. Our 250 horsepower Subaru Legacy GT was only just barely adequate to feel safe.

Check this one out:

Street view (http://i.imgur.com/VCtoGbZ.png)

Overhead (http://i.imgur.com/GST0DDu.png)

Oh gosh, that's nuts!
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 14, 2016, 06:56:49 PM
I've been driving more than 25 years, and have to admit that the vast majority of accidents I've avoided have been by doing exactly as you say: looking ahead, thinking ahead, and slowing down. There have only been a few incidents I've had to stunt-drive or stunt-ride my way out of. However, at no point was I driving a high performance vehicle.

The outside slingshot turn to thread the needle between the wall and the 10-car pileup on a banked freeway overpass covered in ice was something I pulled off in a Scion. When I saw the line of cars ahead of me hydroplane into each other on the banked right turn despite having their brake lights on, I knew there was no traction and nowhere to go unless I wanted to either plow into someone or get hit by the people behind me. So instead of braking, I goosed the motor to build up all the speed I could, lane changed left to maximize lateral drift space and use what was left of the slipstream from the dumbass ahead of me who were trying to brake, and drove as hard as I could the wall in front of me knowing I was going to be pulled sideways anyway due to gravity and the slick surface. When the inevitable skid started I stayed off my brakes, kept the wheels going fast, and cleared the wreckage by a few feet. From there I let the car coast into a turn, steered in the direction of the skid to keep the car from fishtailing, and accelerated out of the turn. No brakes at all; you can't do that on a slick surface. I couldn't have done it if I hadn't flipped burgers for years at a racetrack and listened to the professional drivers talk. Of course there are no right turns or ice driving in CASCAR. Some of the drivers and crew would be talking shop, and sometimes there were conversations about how so-and-so did this or that in a big NASCAR or Formula 1 race. I don't know whether any of them actually drove or crewed there. Some of the older ones probably did.

In the same toaster, I also managed to avoid a sedan driver on a Texas freeway who approached from behind and then proceeded to lane change into us. There was a bit of a half-lane shoulder between us and the cement retaining wall, so to keep my daughter and her grandmother from being crushed I edged into the shoulder, downshifted, and hit the gas. The Scion had more than enough power to get us three-quarters of a car length ahead at highway speed before the other car was in our lane where we used to be. It didn't turn into us getting PIT'ed, crushed, or sideswiped at highway speeds.

Dodging a wrong-way semi driver who was passing in my lane on a 2-lane Saskatchewan highway with no shoulder was something I managed on a 500-cc Honda Shadow 500 during a not-quite-TransCanada solo ride that I refer to as my "Bat Out Of Halifax tour". One big rig was passing another at night and he messed up his distance calculation which is easy to do out in the middle of nowhere. Both drivers realized the problem. The driver being passed hit his brakes as hard as he could without jackknifing, and the driver doing the passing accelerated into the lane change. I took the throttle off to bleed off speed using the engine, hit the line and balanced the bike's wheels on it, on the line, ducked to avoid the window, and just barely felt the rear part of the trailer whip by me less than a hand's span away. I don't know if I'd have made it if the other drivers hadn't done their part, but again, a 500-cc cruiser isn't an overpowered vehicle.

The point I'm trying to make is that when it comes to driving out of a bad situation I don't think people are buying much with the overpowered vehicles. Unless you're a Formula 1 driver who needs the extra power to compete against other overpowered vehicles, extra horsepower isn't going to keep you out of trouble. What I have is obscenely fast reaction time, because my body responds differently to adrenalin: it relaxes, so I don't lose my fine motor control and I'm not working against my own body if I have to move. It also allows me to regularly make decisions like: "save your eye by turning your head in exactly this direction", "get your face out of the way of that large fireball", or "no, the cutter is slipping but DO NOT grab the oscillating blades with your fingers". In my opinion, compared to buying extra horsepower for the car, a better value for the dollar would be for the driver to spend a few years learning to physically relax under pressure. That's what I'm conditioning my daughter to do in the car: remain relaxed under pressure.

In summary:

Driver mods, not car mods.

HPDE days and car control clinics are vastly more useful than 100 extra horsepower.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Just Joe on December 15, 2016, 07:36:43 AM

I've been driving more than 25 years, and have to admit that the vast majority of accidents I've avoided have been by doing exactly as you say: looking ahead, thinking ahead, and slowing down. There have only been a few incidents I've had to stunt-drive or stunt-ride my way out of. However, at no point was I driving a high performance vehicle.


It also helps to be in a lighter vehicle that doesn't have three tons of mass to try to change the direction of.

My driving success stories were all four cylinders with good brakes, suspension and 3000 lbs or less.

Its good to "test" (learn) the car's abilities in a parking lot or lonely rural road. How hard can you stop from 60 mph in the wet? What does the ABS feel like? What does it's stopping capabilities LOOK like aka what does 150 ft look like. How hard can you turn at a certain speed in the wet or snow?

A driving school might be better but maybe its not in the budget yet or its a plane ride away aka too far.

The scariest people to ride with are the people who have always driven carefully and never tested the limits of any vehicle - and then something happens and they don't know what to do.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: TheGrimSqueaker on December 15, 2016, 12:07:57 PM

I've been driving more than 25 years, and have to admit that the vast majority of accidents I've avoided have been by doing exactly as you say: looking ahead, thinking ahead, and slowing down. There have only been a few incidents I've had to stunt-drive or stunt-ride my way out of. However, at no point was I driving a high performance vehicle.


It also helps to be in a lighter vehicle that doesn't have three tons of mass to try to change the direction of.

My driving success stories were all four cylinders with good brakes, suspension and 3000 lbs or less.

Its good to "test" (learn) the car's abilities in a parking lot or lonely rural road. How hard can you stop from 60 mph in the wet? What does the ABS feel like? What does it's stopping capabilities LOOK like aka what does 150 ft look like. How hard can you turn at a certain speed in the wet or snow?

A driving school might be better but maybe its not in the budget yet or its a plane ride away aka too far.

The scariest people to ride with are the people who have always driven carefully and never tested the limits of any vehicle - and then something happens and they don't know what to do.

This may sound bad but I switch off my ABS. I try to get as close as possible to the "real" car response even though a lot is electronic at this point.

++ with regard to the light vehicle, except for one thing: crosswind effect. I got slapped all over the place on that 500 cc bike and the air currents were like something out of one of those sword and sorcery movies. To me, a ride that size is fine for tooling around town since it's so easy to pick up and move around, but I'd prefer 700-750 for highway driving. I tried a 1200 and although I can pick it up, put it on its kickstand to raise the wheel, etc., the 1200 is bigger and clumsier than I prefer.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Just Joe on December 15, 2016, 12:23:40 PM
I agree. if I was towing or frequently driving long distances then I'd be looking at heavier vehicles. I don't want to be towing a caravan (UK) with a light car.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: mustachepungoeshere on December 15, 2016, 12:32:26 PM
The Maserati is a steal at less than half the price of the Bentley Bentayga! ($229k)

And that's without the optional Breitling Mulliner Tourbillon watch for an additional $USD160,000.

But Bentley launched its financing arm in Sydney last week, making them eminently more affordable.

Attachment shows lease pricing for Continental GT V8 (in Aussie dollars).
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: SnackDog on December 15, 2016, 12:38:31 PM
I simply can't imagine trying to merge onto a freeway in anything less than a Maserati. It would be so unsafe. And as we have established what a frugal bargain this one is, one can feel good about it as well. Nice.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 15, 2016, 02:35:25 PM
This may sound bad but I switch off my ABS. I try to get as close as possible to the "real" car response even though a lot is electronic at this point.

bruh
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 17, 2016, 07:03:32 AM
This may sound bad but I switch off my ABS. I try to get as close as possible to the "real" car response even though a lot is electronic at this point.

++ with regard to the light vehicle, except for one thing: crosswind effect. I got slapped all over the place on that 500 cc bike and the air currents were like something out of one of those sword and sorcery movies. To me, a ride that size is fine for tooling around town since it's so easy to pick up and move around, but I'd prefer 700-750 for highway driving. I tried a 1200 and although I can pick it up, put it on its kickstand to raise the wheel, etc., the 1200 is bigger and clumsier than I prefer.

I catch shit all the time for riding 'small' bikes.  Um... it's a 950 that weighs over 500 pounds... it's a fuckin' monster.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: gimp on December 19, 2016, 02:19:34 PM
Hold up, who the hell is calling a 950 motorcycle "small?"

It's 50cc under what many people call a "superbike" or liter bike, no?

That's like calling the 6L V8 small because it's not a 6.2L V8. Most are a third of the size...
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: GetItRight on December 19, 2016, 08:02:57 PM
There are two measures of safety. One is crash survivability, new cars are overwhelmingly safer in that regard than cars from 50 years ago. The other is crash avoidability, or likelihood of being involved in a wreck. In that regard new cars are overwhelmingly worse. Blind spots are huge, in many models there's far more area around the vehicle that cannot be seen by the drive than can be seen.

I prefer to avoid being involved in a wreck at all, and will not purchase a vehicle which has massive blind spots. I know how to adjust mirrors properly to maximize visibility. Thanks for EPA and DOT regulation blind spots are huge and mirrors, even properly adjusted, and virtually useless compared to mirrors on older vehicles as they now must be tiny and have glass that magnifies the reflected image instead of giving a broader view, except perhaps the now common tiny convex mirrors that take more than a quick glance to determine is there might be a vehicle in the massive blind spot. It takes more concentration, effort, and time to assess the space around a new car and honestly I find it exhausting and stressful. I will not pay the rich man's new car premium price for those and other mandates by government, I only buy vehicles made before these laws and am likely less safe on the road but that is what government does, removes choice. Car companies build the cars that government wants, not that customers want. At least I have good visibility and am less likely to be involved in a wreck.
I have no idea what sorts of newer cars you have driven and think are so terrible, but OK.

Off the top of my head that I've driven and found are extremely unsafe with minimal visibility, all 2000 or newer model year:
Toyota Camry
Ford Focus
Misubishi *something*
Dodge Caravan
Ford Explorer
Ford Expedition
Mazda 3
Ford Mustang
Toyota Prius
Kia *small SUV*
Chevy *minivan*
BMW *something*
Chevy *compact car*

Visibility is many times better in:
80s Ford or Chevy pickup
90s Ford pickup
80s K car
60s anything
Just about anything mid 90s or older
Heck even 60s fastbacks with no passenger mirror, be it Mustang, Fairlane, or Galaxie are a lot better with visibility.
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: ender on December 19, 2016, 09:25:39 PM
Ford Focus

Hey now, my mid 2000s Focus station wagon has insanely good visibility...
Title: Re: 2017 Maserati Levante Review: A Luxury SUV Thatís a BARGAIN?
Post by: Metric Mouse on December 21, 2016, 08:26:09 AM
Hold up, who the hell is calling a 950 motorcycle "small?"

It's 50cc under what many people call a "superbike" or liter bike, no?

That's like calling the 6L V8 small because it's not a 6.2L V8. Most are a third of the size...

People who ride these: (http://motorsportsnewswire.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/2015-hd-road-glide-1.jpg)