Author Topic: "Why would you want to do that?"  (Read 10830 times)

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2016, 01:33:12 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

I agree... Or want to agree, because he makes a good point that benefits my argument.

But I still just don't buy excuses, there are always creative ways to tackle and overcome resistance and get a fresh start.
Except that is NOT what the research shows.  When you look at males and females that took time out from the workplace, the gender gap is still there.  There have been multiple studies that show that women who stay out and then reenter make less than men that do the exact same action (this was specific to stay at home parents). 
Researchers have also looked at the response to a male leaving early to pick up kids vs a female. And as a result, my husband often does the pick up and I do the drop off because there is no effect (or a benefit depending on the study) for a man leaving to pick his kids up and there is for a woman. 
Instead of being upset by these facts being given and therefore deciding we must be wrong, why not do some reading and then decide what YOU are going to do given the facts, if you are bothered by them.  I hope someone smart enough to be trying to FIRE would choose action, not putting their head in the sand.


You must read a lot of studies?

I'm not going to go read the studies, I'm already giving you the benefit of the doubt that what you say is true, I have no reason to believe that there isnít a study somewhere that shows women are at a disadvantage. I'm not disagreeing that these things do happen, lots of things happen, sometimes people are unfair to people based on gender or race. Iím not saying it doesnít happen, Iím saying thatís just life and unfair things donít just happen to non-privileged people.

The real question is this, given that bias in human nature, does it stop some people from being successful? Are there actual limitations because of it? Or is it being used as a crutch? Or an excuse?

You are not going to get me to believe that just because you were born a different color or gender that somehow it explains your level of success.


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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2016, 01:33:33 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so than women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

I agree... Or want to agree, because he makes a good point that benefits my argument.

But I still just don't buy excuses, there are always creative ways to tackle and overcome resistance and get a fresh start.

Yes, but my point is that the "privelege" is not all enduring, it can be fickle depending on one's circumstances.  and when it turns on you, it really turns on you.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2016, 01:38:07 PM »
I am now aware of white privilge. I hope everyone feels better now.

To the OP Congrats on your time off!!

Sorry for being an accomplice in the high jacking of the thread.....

Gin1984

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2016, 01:55:34 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

I agree... Or want to agree, because he makes a good point that benefits my argument.

But I still just don't buy excuses, there are always creative ways to tackle and overcome resistance and get a fresh start.
Except that is NOT what the research shows.  When you look at males and females that took time out from the workplace, the gender gap is still there.  There have been multiple studies that show that women who stay out and then reenter make less than men that do the exact same action (this was specific to stay at home parents). 
Researchers have also looked at the response to a male leaving early to pick up kids vs a female. And as a result, my husband often does the pick up and I do the drop off because there is no effect (or a benefit depending on the study) for a man leaving to pick his kids up and there is for a woman. 
Instead of being upset by these facts being given and therefore deciding we must be wrong, why not do some reading and then decide what YOU are going to do given the facts, if you are bothered by them.  I hope someone smart enough to be trying to FIRE would choose action, not putting their head in the sand.


You must read a lot of studies?


I'm not going to go read the studies, I'm already giving you the benefit of the doubt that what you say is true, I have no reason to believe that there isnít a study somewhere that shows women are at a disadvantage. I'm not disagreeing that these things do happen, lots of things happen, sometimes people are unfair to people based on gender or race. Iím not saying it doesnít happen, Iím saying thatís just life and unfair things donít just happen to non-privileged people.

The real question is this, given that bias in human nature, does it stop some people from being successful? Are there actual limitations because of it? Or is it being used as a crutch? Or an excuse?

You are not going to get me to believe that just because you were born a different color or gender that somehow it explains your level of success.
I'm a researcher, that is a large part of what we do.  And if you want to ignore the data, that is your choice, but that does not mean the data is not there.

Dicey

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2016, 02:45:16 PM »
Yeah, I'm going to jump back on the pile. It's not like the OP had other options, but chose to be born a white male. You simply cannot reasonably find fault with him personally simply on the basis of his race and gender. In every society, there are the privileged few and there is an underclass. Doesn't make it right, but there it is. I dislike when people use race and gender to diminish another person's success, and that's how the comment read to me.

Completely personal anecdote: As I was a product of the seventies, I knew about that wage inequity problem, which was actually much worse wa-a-a-ay back then. I deliberately charted a career course that allowed me to earn based on my results. I actually found I was paid better in male-dominated fields. Once I hired  into a company during an expansion period. They hired me and three guys. A couple of years later, I stumbled onto a file of our initial hiring paperwork. Guess who was hired at the highest salary? Yup, this girl right here. I consistently outperformed them as well, so I always made more bonus money than they did.

Conclusion: If you care about the dollars, don't enter a profession that has a track record of paying women poorly. Don't become a (fill in the blank) and then complain that you're not paid as much as a scientist, doctor, lawyer or (fill in the blank).

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2016, 03:57:02 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

I agree... Or want to agree, because he makes a good point that benefits my argument.

But I still just don't buy excuses, there are always creative ways to tackle and overcome resistance and get a fresh start.

It does raise an interesting point, though. Do melanin-deprived men catch more flak if they deviate from the stereotype by choosing nontraditional careers in the arts, working from home, or doing a house-husband thing?

mm1970

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2016, 06:17:23 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

Also: age matters.  Over 40 is bad, over 50 is worse.

mm1970

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2016, 06:26:20 PM »
Yeah, I'm going to jump back on the pile. It's not like the OP had other options, but chose to be born a white male. You simply cannot reasonably find fault with him personally simply on the basis of his race and gender. In every society, there are the privileged few and there is an underclass. Doesn't make it right, but there it is. I dislike when people use race and gender to diminish another person's success, and that's how the comment read to me.

Completely personal anecdote: As I was a product of the seventies, I knew about that wage inequity problem, which was actually much worse wa-a-a-ay back then. I deliberately charted a career course that allowed me to earn based on my results. I actually found I was paid better in male-dominated fields. Once I hired  into a company during an expansion period. They hired me and three guys. A couple of years later, I stumbled onto a file of our initial hiring paperwork. Guess who was hired at the highest salary? Yup, this girl right here. I consistently outperformed them as well, so I always made more bonus money than they did.

Conclusion: If you care about the dollars, don't enter a profession that has a track record of paying women poorly. Don't become a (fill in the blank) and then complain that you're not paid as much as a scientist, doctor, lawyer or (fill in the blank).
Well, when I entered engineering I was looking for a industry that I was suited to work in, and would pay well.

Example: I don't care if, say, women working in nursing get paid more than men working in nursing, because engineering pays better than nursing (I don't actually think that is unilaterally true, but I digress).

And in fact, in the early 1990's, women often were recruited heavily in some industries (as engineers), and thus got a teeny bit higher salaries, because: diversity. There weren't many women engineers. That slight advantage didn't last long, however.  (And of course, studies bear this out even today for the wage gap in engineering. (Personally, I went into the military after college where my pay was *exactly* the same as every man in my position and at my rank).

Anyway, you read the intent of the comment incorrectly, it was meant to note his privilege, not take anything away from his hard work.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #58 on: December 06, 2016, 06:56:54 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

I agree... Or want to agree, because he makes a good point that benefits my argument.

But I still just don't buy excuses, there are always creative ways to tackle and overcome resistance and get a fresh start.
Except that is NOT what the research shows.  When you look at males and females that took time out from the workplace, the gender gap is still there.  There have been multiple studies that show that women who stay out and then reenter make less than men that do the exact same action (this was specific to stay at home parents). 
Researchers have also looked at the response to a male leaving early to pick up kids vs a female. And as a result, my husband often does the pick up and I do the drop off because there is no effect (or a benefit depending on the study) for a man leaving to pick his kids up and there is for a woman. 
Instead of being upset by these facts being given and therefore deciding we must be wrong, why not do some reading and then decide what YOU are going to do given the facts, if you are bothered by them.  I hope someone smart enough to be trying to FIRE would choose action, not putting their head in the sand.

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I would not have considered this effect.  Good for you for making those alterations for the benefit of your career.

For the OP I lost my job once and found a new job after 4 months.  The timing was poor because I planned a trip with my kids.  I asked to start in 1 month.  They said no problem.  Enjoy it!

MrsPete

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2016, 12:01:05 PM »
Sigh. Some people just don't get it. Encouragingly, everyone in my own age group seems to think it's awesome. It seems to be the boomers who can't envision a life without work*.
I read on the internet that people say this, but everyone I know personally falls into one of three camps: 

- I hate my job and will retire the minute I can.
- I like my job, but I also look forward to retiring. 
- No point in talking about retirement; I'll never do it. 

I know no one who doesn't WANT to retire.

Dicey

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2016, 12:55:18 PM »
Yeah, I'm going to jump back on the pile. It's not like the OP had other options, but chose to be born a white male. You simply cannot reasonably find fault with him personally simply on the basis of his race and gender. In every society, there are the privileged few and there is an underclass. Doesn't make it right, but there it is. I dislike when people use race and gender to diminish another person's success, and that's how the comment read to me.
Anyway, you read the intent of the comment incorrectly, it was meant to note his privilege, not take anything away from his hard work.
[My blue above] I believe I read it exactly as you intended. Again, why is his color relevant? Would you have mentioned it if he was any color but white? There are plenty of white males that are total fuck ups. There are plenty of total fuck ups of every sex, shape, size, color and creed for that matter.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2016, 01:09:42 PM »
I'm always shocked that most people that leave the company I work at don't take a week or two off between jobs because they can't afford to miss a paycheck.  I'd have to pull some investments, but I could be okay for a few years, and I am not a hardcore FI saver. 

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2016, 01:08:25 AM »
I'm always shocked that most people that leave the company I work at don't take a week or two off between jobs because they can't afford to miss a paycheck.  I'd have to pull some investments, but I could be okay for a few years, and I am not a hardcore FI saver.

Salary is an addictive drug.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2016, 07:42:24 AM »
I'm always shocked that most people that leave the company I work at don't take a week or two off between jobs because they can't afford to miss a paycheck.  I'd have to pull some investments, but I could be okay for a few years, and I am not a hardcore FI saver.

Salary is an addictive drug.

This. I'm pregnant with my second, and due in mid-February. My husband got told in late November that he's getting laid off in late January (company is going through cut-backs, no fault of his, etc).

Everyone around him is FREAKING OUT that "you're going to be unemployed with 2 kids and a wife on maternity leave oh god oh god why aare you not looking harder for a job ANY job ALL jobs??!"

Meanwhile... honestly, we've focussed on debt repayment more than savings, which functionally means we have NO non-mortgage debt, we have a few months salary in savings, he has access to almost a year of paid leave (paternity/unemployement/etc)... and I'm getting paid for my year of maternity leave. Like. Really, now. Is there a BETTER time to take some partially-paid leave than to be at home with your newborn and your toddler and your wife for a few months before job-hunting? C'mon, now. This is actually a pretty great opportunity for us. (We'll be watching our budget and cutting a few things back, obviously, but...)

Drifterrider

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2016, 09:32:54 AM »
I took two months off between jobs (16 years ago).

Someone asked me why I was taking two months off.  I told them it was because I couldn't afford to take three.  Deer in the head lights look.

I found that I quite easily adapted to the "at liberty" lifestyle.  :)

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2016, 09:38:15 AM »
I'm always shocked that most people that leave the company I work at don't take a week or two off between jobs because they can't afford to miss a paycheck.  I'd have to pull some investments, but I could be okay for a few years, and I am not a hardcore FI saver.

Salary is an addictive drug.

This. I'm pregnant with my second, and due in mid-February. My husband got told in late November that he's getting laid off in late January (company is going through cut-backs, no fault of his, etc).

Everyone around him is FREAKING OUT that "you're going to be unemployed with 2 kids and a wife on maternity leave oh god oh god why aare you not looking harder for a job ANY job ALL jobs??!"

Meanwhile... honestly, we've focussed on debt repayment more than savings, which functionally means we have NO non-mortgage debt, we have a few months salary in savings, he has access to almost a year of paid leave (paternity/unemployement/etc)... and I'm getting paid for my year of maternity leave. Like. Really, now. Is there a BETTER time to take some partially-paid leave than to be at home with your newborn and your toddler and your wife for a few months before job-hunting? C'mon, now. This is actually a pretty great opportunity for us. (We'll be watching our budget and cutting a few things back, obviously, but...)

Wow, that sounds like an amazing opportunity for you to spend some time together as an expanded family. Hope he finds a great position when it's time to look for work.