Author Topic: "Why would you want to do that?"  (Read 10831 times)

Mississippi Mudstache

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"Why would you want to do that?"
« on: December 01, 2016, 01:35:47 PM »
Tomorrow is my last day at work for a month. I'm leaving my current job and decided to take a one-month hiatus before beginning my new one. I have a few small gigs lined up for my time off, but for the most part I'll be free to do as I please. My wife and I are ecstatic (I'm the one who floated the idea, and she's the one who demanded that I do it when I started second-guessing the decision).

We've been chuckling to ourselves at the response from some people. My uncle was the first to voice his doubts.

"I heard you're taking a month off before you start your new job".
"Yep."
"Why would you want to do that?"
"Why wouldn't I want to do that?"
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."
"Yeah, but we won't miss one month of income."
"I wish I was rich."

I decided not to tell him that I could technically take off four years before needing to work again. Ironically, this uncle, thanks to his successful, hard-working senior-management-level wife, is rich. They are literally multimillionaires. I'm sure he thinks they're "middle class", though.

My wife was relating this story to her mom as a humorous anecdote. She said that her mom got a puzzled look on her face and furrowed her eyebrows, and asked "Why is he taking a month off?"

Sigh. Some people just don't get it. Encouragingly, everyone in my own age group seems to think it's awesome. It seems to be the boomers who can't envision a life without work*.

*n = not large enough to make vague generalizations

zephyr911

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2016, 01:45:46 PM »
That's awesome man, and you've earned it.

DW is gonna take a couple weeks herself, and it's nice to know it has barely any effect on our finances.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2016, 02:05:20 PM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Have a great time away from work!

cheapass

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2016, 02:55:43 PM »
It's funny how engrained the "you must go to work and slave away for decades until you're the magic age of 65 years old" paradigm is in most people's heads.

I've talked with some people about investing so I can buy myself 7 Saturdays a week and sometimes the response is a blank stare with the reply, "Yeah but...  what will you do all day? I like working!" Dude, if you won the lottery and it was enough to support you for the rest of your life, would it be a tough decision? Hmm should I go to work today or should I do whatever the hell I want? Keep telling yourself you like working better than total freedom. I think very, very few people actually "like" their jobs enough that they would continue if they didn't need the money.

Chris22

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2016, 02:59:29 PM »
It's funny how engrained the "you must go to work and slave away for decades until you're the magic age of 65 years old" paradigm is in most people's heads.

I've talked with some people about investing so I can buy myself 7 Saturdays a week and sometimes the response is a blank stare with the reply, "Yeah but...  what will you do all day? I like working!" Dude, if you won the lottery and it was enough to support you for the rest of your life, would it be a tough decision? Hmm should I go to work today or should I do whatever the hell I want? Keep telling yourself you like working better than total freedom. I think very, very few people actually "like" their jobs enough that they would continue if they didn't need the money.

I can honestly say I like working more than doing anything I can currently afford to do if I were to not work.  If I had several million in the bank and could spend a lot more money on my hobbies?  Yes.  I'd rather do that than work.  But I'd rather be at work than home gardening, knitting, couponing, going to the library, etc.

mm1970

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2016, 04:01:44 PM »
It's funny how engrained the "you must go to work and slave away for decades until you're the magic age of 65 years old" paradigm is in most people's heads.

I've talked with some people about investing so I can buy myself 7 Saturdays a week and sometimes the response is a blank stare with the reply, "Yeah but...  what will you do all day? I like working!" Dude, if you won the lottery and it was enough to support you for the rest of your life, would it be a tough decision? Hmm should I go to work today or should I do whatever the hell I want? Keep telling yourself you like working better than total freedom. I think very, very few people actually "like" their jobs enough that they would continue if they didn't need the money.

I can honestly say I like working more than doing anything I can currently afford to do if I were to not work.  If I had several million in the bank and could spend a lot more money on my hobbies?  Yes.  I'd rather do that than work.  But I'd rather be at work than home gardening, knitting, couponing, going to the library, etc.

I'm a dabbler, and I guess that's both good and bad!  I think I could easily handle a month off, but maybe not much more than 3 months.  I like cooking, crocheting, etc., (stuff around the house), and projects.  And I like work.  And I love my kids.  But more than about 40 hours a week of any of them and I'm over it. 

I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them.  One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another.  His wife worked.  His kids are healthy (and grown now).

Another is a female friend who kept working pt when kids were little.  Divorced, went full time.  Remarried when kids were older.  Worked at a stable job that wasn't the best paying.  Rented out her house when she married, sold it at a good time.  All these things meant that when work got horrible, she could quit.  Was off work 6 months, got a job right as her husband got laid off.  A year later, that company closed her office down, got a new job before she got laid off.  But that new place was so horrible her husband told her to QUIT.  And by then, he was employed.  She had about 4-5 months off again before getting a new job (at this point she was being VERY picky).

Still, a lot of people think I should worry about layoffs because it's a small town.  And though I know a lot of people at a few places (and I'm well regarded), it might take "months if not a couple of years to find the right job, and until then you are stuck with whatever you get".  Eh, so?  I don't actually need to work anymore.  I like to work though, so maybe that's their thought.  That at 46, I'm "too young" to think about never working again.

bridget

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2016, 04:37:41 PM »
How bizarre. I took 8 weeks off between my current job and last one, and it was awesome. I must know more reasonable people than you do, because nobody thought it was weird. Granted, I'm in a field and stage of life where this is relatively normal - lots of people take a month or more off between clerking and starting at a law firm, or taking the bar and starting at a law firm. Everybody knows the next few years of your life are going to be a grind, so you have to get while the getting is good.

Have fun! Most importantly, don't plan TOO many "gigs" for your time off. A month is really not that much time, and I recommend taking at least half of it to just sit around being unproductive. Eight weeks blew by for me.

MilesTeg

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2016, 04:47:28 PM »
It's funny how engrained the "you must go to work and slave away for decades until you're the magic age of 65 years old" paradigm is in most people's heads.

I've talked with some people about investing so I can buy myself 7 Saturdays a week and sometimes the response is a blank stare with the reply, "Yeah but...  what will you do all day? I like working!" Dude, if you won the lottery and it was enough to support you for the rest of your life, would it be a tough decision? Hmm should I go to work today or should I do whatever the hell I want? Keep telling yourself you like working better than total freedom. I think very, very few people actually "like" their jobs enough that they would continue if they didn't need the money.

There's a big difference between: I'm a lottery winner and can easily do _anything_ I want vs. 'as long as I never spend more than absolutely necessary I can RE'. The former is "total freedom" the latter is not. And, IMHO, the latter is less free than being FI but continuing to work and having more flexibility with finances.

moof

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2016, 04:48:52 PM »
Years back I stretched a severance package to 10.5 months off.  I spent it living out of a small camper on the back of my truck going climbing and backpacking with no permanent address.  It was the best year of my life, which pisses off my wife when I say so (she is stay-at-home, so I don't have a ton of sympathy).  It was a great preview of what I am now saving like mad to make permanent.

I worried at the time that I might get bored, I didn't.  Some rainy days kinda weren't that great due to being stuck in a small camper without much to do, sort of almost as bad as being stuck in a fabric box but without other peoples farts wafting by.

Now I am fighting burnout badly and need to figure out how to stand the next 8 years in the fabric box...

meghan88

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2016, 04:59:33 PM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Have a great time away from work!
+1.  If they're that concerned, maybe they should crowdfund your better half ... LOL

bridget

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 05:46:17 PM »
Years back I stretched a severance package to 10.5 months off.  I spent it living out of a small camper on the back of my truck going climbing and backpacking with no permanent address.  It was the best year of my life, which pisses off my wife when I say so (she is stay-at-home, so I don't have a ton of sympathy).  It was a great preview of what I am now saving like mad to make permanent.

I worried at the time that I might get bored, I didn't.  Some rainy days kinda weren't that great due to being stuck in a small camper without much to do, sort of almost as bad as being stuck in a fabric box but without other peoples farts wafting by.

Now I am fighting burnout badly and need to figure out how to stand the next 8 years in the fabric box...

A stay at home ... what? If the next word is "parent," I think you should be pretty damn sympathetic, because that's extremely different than being a wandering rock climber with no obligations. I would rather work until the day I die than be a stay at home parent, because it seems much less pleasant.

mustachepungoeshere

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2016, 06:11:01 PM »
Tomorrow is my last day at work for a month. I'm leaving my current job and decided to take a one-month hiatus before beginning my new one. I have a few small gigs lined up for my time off, but for the most part I'll be free to do as I please. My wife and I are ecstatic (I'm the one who floated the idea, and she's the one who demanded that I do it when I started second-guessing the decision).

We've been chuckling to ourselves at the response from some people. My uncle was the first to voice his doubts.

"I heard you're taking a month off before you start your new job".
"Yep."
"Why would you want to do that?"
"Why wouldn't I want to do that?"
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."
"Yeah, but we won't miss one month of income."
"I wish I was rich."

I decided not to tell him that I could technically take off four years before needing to work again. Ironically, this uncle, thanks to his successful, hard-working senior-management-level wife, is rich. They are literally multimillionaires. I'm sure he thinks they're "middle class", though.

My wife was relating this story to her mom as a humorous anecdote. She said that her mom got a puzzled look on her face and furrowed her eyebrows, and asked "Why is he taking a month off?"

Sigh. Some people just don't get it. Encouragingly, everyone in my own age group seems to think it's awesome. It seems to be the boomers who can't envision a life without work*.

*n = not large enough to make vague generalizations

Love it.

I had the opposite in October.

Finished old job on Friday, started new job on Monday.

People asked why I didn't take time off, and I explained that new job wanted me to start ASAP, but I think people assumed we couldn't afford for me to take leave.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2016, 06:56:39 AM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Yeah, knowing my uncle, I don't really think he meant it that way. "You have a wife and kids to feed" is kind of like code among the American middle class for "You have an SUV to buy and a 3,000 square foot house to maintain!" This is the same uncle who remarked when my wife was pregnant with our third child, "Guess it's about time to trade in that Prius for an SUV!" He was floored when I responded that we had already bought three carseats that would fit side-by-side in the Prius. "But where will you put your stuff?" Um, in the back?

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2016, 07:02:28 AM »
Have fun! Most importantly, don't plan TOO many "gigs" for your time off. A month is really not that much time, and I recommend taking at least half of it to just sit around being unproductive. Eight weeks blew by for me.

Well, that's just the thing. Early retirement for me will really be a life of working at my "gigs" which I find more fulfilling and enjoyable than my desk jockey work. I want to operate a mobile sawmill and do woodworking and not have to actually rely on it to support my family. But that's what I really want to be doing almost every day. I kind of hate myself when I sit around being unproductive.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2016, 07:05:07 AM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Yeah, knowing my uncle, I don't really think he meant it that way. "You have a wife and kids to feed" is kind of like code among the American middle class for "You have an SUV to buy and a 3,000 square foot house to maintain!" This is the same uncle who remarked when my wife was pregnant with our third child, "Guess it's about time to trade in that Prius for an SUV!" He was floored when I responded that we had already bought three carseats that would fit side-by-side in the Prius. "But where will you put your stuff?" Um, in the back?

Sounds like someone doesn't have enough stuff to prove their love to their family.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2016, 07:06:07 AM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Have a great time away from work!
+1.  If they're that concerned, maybe they should crowdfund your better half ... LOL

That would have been the ideal response:
"Yeah, it's going to be tough.  That's why we put up this Kickstarter called Feed My Kids For A Month.  You want to donate?"

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2016, 07:08:31 AM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Have a great time away from work!
+1.  If they're that concerned, maybe they should crowdfund your better half ... LOL

That would have been the ideal response:
"Yeah, it's going to be tough.  That's why we put up this Kickstarter called Feed My Kids For A Month.  You want to donate?"

Agreed, I wish I were that witty. I should start a gofundme and share the link with him just to eff with him.

mm1970

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2016, 10:47:01 AM »
Years back I stretched a severance package to 10.5 months off.  I spent it living out of a small camper on the back of my truck going climbing and backpacking with no permanent address.  It was the best year of my life, which pisses off my wife when I say so (she is stay-at-home, so I don't have a ton of sympathy).  It was a great preview of what I am now saving like mad to make permanent.

I worried at the time that I might get bored, I didn't.  Some rainy days kinda weren't that great due to being stuck in a small camper without much to do, sort of almost as bad as being stuck in a fabric box but without other peoples farts wafting by.

Now I am fighting burnout badly and need to figure out how to stand the next 8 years in the fabric box...

A stay at home ... what? If the next word is "parent," I think you should be pretty damn sympathetic, because that's extremely different than being a wandering rock climber with no obligations. I would rather work until the day I die than be a stay at home parent, because it seems much less pleasant.

+1

Dicey

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2016, 11:03:34 AM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.

Ann

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2016, 12:50:52 PM »
Years back I stretched a severance package to 10.5 months off.  I spent it living out of a small camper on the back of my truck going climbing and backpacking with no permanent address.  It was the best year of my life, which pisses off my wife when I say so (she is stay-at-home, so I don't have a ton of sympathy).  It was a great preview of what I am now saving like mad to make permanent.

I worried at the time that I might get bored, I didn't.  Some rainy days kinda weren't that great due to being stuck in a small camper without much to do, sort of almost as bad as being stuck in a fabric box but without other peoples farts wafting by.

Now I am fighting burnout badly and need to figure out how to stand the next 8 years in the fabric box...

Maybe it hurts her feelings that you keep saying how much happier you were in your halcyon days before you met her.  And was saddled with children?   Is she a stay-at-home parent?  Or were you meaning she's just a homebody?  [Edited to say:  I'm not saying you're literally thinking of abandoning your wife and child and escaping child support payments in your addressless camper.  I reviewed some of your posts because I was curious, and you seem like you have a healthy, devoted relationship with your spouse and child.  I just want to point out how that COULD sound to someone who is raising your child and trying to be your partner in life.]
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 01:34:19 PM by Ann »

Cassie

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2016, 01:34:39 PM »
At 53 my DH was laid off and couldn't find another job. At first he liked it but after a year not so much.  So now he works a contract job usually 6-12 months, takes year off and looks again. Has been doing this past 5 years and is happy. Just landed a 18-24 month gig and is very excited. At first I consulted in my field p.t. but recently quit that although I teach an online college course which I love.  Different things make people happy:))

Dicey

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2016, 07:44:26 PM »
On topic: Congratulations! Just recognize those comments as the hidden compliments that they are. I predict that you'll enjoy your time and perhaps wish you'd taken even longer.

KodeBlue

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2016, 07:42:08 AM »
Tomorrow is my last day at work for a month. I'm leaving my current job and decided to take a one-month hiatus before beginning my new one. I have a few small gigs lined up for my time off, but for the most part I'll be free to do as I please. My wife and I are ecstatic (I'm the one who floated the idea, and she's the one who demanded that I do it when I started second-guessing the decision).

We've been chuckling to ourselves at the response from some people. My uncle was the first to voice his doubts.

"I heard you're taking a month off before you start your new job".
"Yep."
"Why would you want to do that?"
"Why wouldn't I want to do that?"
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."
"Yeah, but we won't miss one month of income."
"I wish I was rich."

I decided not to tell him that I could technically take off four years before needing to work again. Ironically, this uncle, thanks to his successful, hard-working senior-management-level wife, is rich. They are literally multimillionaires. I'm sure he thinks they're "middle class", though.

My wife was relating this story to her mom as a humorous anecdote. She said that her mom got a puzzled look on her face and furrowed her eyebrows, and asked "Why is he taking a month off?"

Sigh. Some people just don't get it. Encouragingly, everyone in my own age group seems to think it's awesome. It seems to be the boomers who can't envision a life without work*.

*n = not large enough to make vague generalizations

Wrong answer. You should said "I'm borrowing the money on a HELOC; the intrest rate is high but I deserve a few weeks off".

Kitsune

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2016, 08:01:40 AM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Have a great time away from work!

And also the assumption that the wife is a dependant to be maintained.

I dunno. If someone told my husband he had to work to keep me fed, I'd be PISSED.

mm1970

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2016, 10:51:47 AM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.
He's a frugal, hardworking, intelligent (both engineering-wise, and people-wise.  He really knew how to read people.  Fascinating guy.)  And yes, he's an upper-middle class white male - and when you are in engineering, manufacturing, and technology - that is HUGE.  Look around.  Look "up".  Who makes up the vast majority of directors, VPs, CEOs, in my industry?  White males.

In the variety of companies that I have worked for in the last 23 years, who got most of the promotions?  White males.  It makes a difference.  People like to promote people who are "like them".  I've watched highly regarded women get overlooked, or let go - in one case, the *only* reason I could see that she got let go was because she "acted like a man".  In fact, her personality and work-method was IDENTICAL to one of the men I work with who got promoted.  Mind-boggling.  Twenty years ago one of my female coworkers got passed over for promotion twice.  She went to the director and asked why these two got promoted first (she had seniority and a higher-ranking job) and the first words out of his mouth were "you two-career couples have it SO EASY".  Now, the age of this coworker makes her approximately the age of this particular wonderful guy that I'm talking about.  Yes, something that happened 20 years ago WILL make a difference to your career trajectory.

I cannot say that it makes a difference in every industry, but it sure does in mine.  Of course, these days at my level and age, you are just as likely to have VPs and directors who are Asian or Asian-American (in my company, that would be Indian, Chinese, Koren, Japanese), but still the majority are white males.  Not a woman in the bunch, since we "let go" that last one.

And finally, and industry-wide survey puts the income gap between men and women of the same job level and experience and years of work at $14,000.  Multiply that by 25-30 years or so.  Frugality is great but cash is king.

charis

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2016, 11:32:24 AM »
Years back I stretched a severance package to 10.5 months off.  I spent it living out of a small camper on the back of my truck going climbing and backpacking with no permanent address.  It was the best year of my life, which pisses off my wife when I say so (she is stay-at-home, so I don't have a ton of sympathy).  It was a great preview of what I am now saving like mad to make permanent.

I worried at the time that I might get bored, I didn't.  Some rainy days kinda weren't that great due to being stuck in a small camper without much to do, sort of almost as bad as being stuck in a fabric box but without other peoples farts wafting by.

Now I am fighting burnout badly and need to figure out how to stand the next 8 years in the fabric box...

A stay at home ... what? If the next word is "parent," I think you should be pretty damn sympathetic, because that's extremely different than being a wandering rock climber with no obligations. I would rather work until the day I die than be a stay at home parent, because it seems much less pleasant.

+1

I have to assume that you mean that you have no children and she doesn't stay home to take care of them.  Otherwise, it would be insane to compare it to your time off work.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2016, 11:40:56 AM »
Years back I stretched a severance package to 10.5 months off.  I spent it living out of a small camper on the back of my truck going climbing and backpacking with no permanent address.  It was the best year of my life, which pisses off my wife when I say so (she is stay-at-home, so I don't have a ton of sympathy).  It was a great preview of what I am now saving like mad to make permanent.

I worried at the time that I might get bored, I didn't.  Some rainy days kinda weren't that great due to being stuck in a small camper without much to do, sort of almost as bad as being stuck in a fabric box but without other peoples farts wafting by.

Now I am fighting burnout badly and need to figure out how to stand the next 8 years in the fabric box...

A stay at home ... what? If the next word is "parent," I think you should be pretty damn sympathetic, because that's extremely different than being a wandering rock climber with no obligations. I would rather work until the day I die than be a stay at home parent, because it seems much less pleasant.

+1

I have to assume that you mean that you have no children and she doesn't stay home to take care of them.  Otherwise, it would be insane to compare it to your time off work.

Yeah I agree, I would much rather work than be a parent, much less a stay-home parent.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2016, 12:08:04 PM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."

See this is the bit that gets me. Like you would have just unilaterally decided to take the time off without your wife agreeing and uncle is the only one looking out for your children.

It's not just the financial aspect, it's the assumption that you are an awful person.

Yeah, knowing my uncle, I don't really think he meant it that way. "You have a wife and kids to feed" is kind of like code among the American middle class for "You have an SUV to buy and a 3,000 square foot house to maintain!" This is the same uncle who remarked when my wife was pregnant with our third child, "Guess it's about time to trade in that Prius for an SUV!" He was floored when I responded that we had already bought three carseats that would fit side-by-side in the Prius. "But where will you put your stuff?" Um, in the back?

I love it when people think you just can't get by without owning a big SUV or a schoolbus to haul the family back and forth to do the family shopping. I wonder what these people would do if they woke up in an age of permanent $8 a gallon gasoline (aka Europe).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 12:10:32 PM by Joe Lucky »

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2016, 12:16:36 PM »
+1 much rather work than stay at home.

But even more than work I would rather be out hunting and fishing or building a cabin or hiking in the middle of BFE or sailing a boat to Alaska or sailing a boat in the Caribbean or running a trap line in the bitter cold artic circle or visiting family and friends.

FI in general is just gonna be awesome, limitless possibilities, only limited by creativity.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2016, 12:27:19 PM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.
He's a frugal, hardworking, intelligent (both engineering-wise, and people-wise.  He really knew how to read people.  Fascinating guy.)  And yes, he's an upper-middle class white male - and when you are in engineering, manufacturing, and technology - that is HUGE.  Look around.  Look "up".  Who makes up the vast majority of directors, VPs, CEOs, in my industry?  White males.

In the variety of companies that I have worked for in the last 23 years, who got most of the promotions?  White males.  It makes a difference.  People like to promote people who are "like them".  I've watched highly regarded women get overlooked, or let go - in one case, the *only* reason I could see that she got let go was because she "acted like a man".  In fact, her personality and work-method was IDENTICAL to one of the men I work with who got promoted.  Mind-boggling.  Twenty years ago one of my female coworkers got passed over for promotion twice.  She went to the director and asked why these two got promoted first (she had seniority and a higher-ranking job) and the first words out of his mouth were "you two-career couples have it SO EASY".  Now, the age of this coworker makes her approximately the age of this particular wonderful guy that I'm talking about.  Yes, something that happened 20 years ago WILL make a difference to your career trajectory.

I cannot say that it makes a difference in every industry, but it sure does in mine.  Of course, these days at my level and age, you are just as likely to have VPs and directors who are Asian or Asian-American (in my company, that would be Indian, Chinese, Koren, Japanese), but still the majority are white males.  Not a woman in the bunch, since we "let go" that last one.

And finally, and industry-wide survey puts the income gap between men and women of the same job level and experience and years of work at $14,000.  Multiply that by 25-30 years or so.  Frugality is great but cash is king.
Thank you for posting that.  It is something we all need to be aware of.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2016, 12:41:47 PM »

FI in general is just gonna be awesome, limitless possibilities, only limited by creativity.

That's my vision for FI. I don't have any concrete plans, but one definite goal of mine is to be a winter bird. I @#$ hate snow and the cold.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2016, 01:02:12 PM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.
He's a frugal, hardworking, intelligent (both engineering-wise, and people-wise.  He really knew how to read people.  Fascinating guy.)  And yes, he's an upper-middle class white male - and when you are in engineering, manufacturing, and technology - that is HUGE.  Look around.  Look "up".  Who makes up the vast majority of directors, VPs, CEOs, in my industry?  White males.

Buddy, I don't know what industry you work in, but I sure don't see it in mine. What I do see is a non existent interest from people who are not white males.... I believe it has more to do with culture in minority communities than it has to do with being oppressed, because nobody I know thinks like that. You put a fully capable person, with the right training and experience and work ethic, of any color or gender in an interview and they will get the job. But, I don't see them interview, or even apply, or show up in industry training, or in school training to get into the industry. So yea, most CEO's are white because that is 99% of the pool to select from.

Your examples of identical comparisons make me wonder if there was actually things the person did or the way they interacted with other people at work that caused a problem for themselves. I can even hear slight hints of it in the way you wrote your response.

I'm not saying there aren't some really bad people out there in positions of power that should not be, but to make a generalized statement about white privilege like that is insulting and hurtful. You know how many times I have been passed over? Who is being racist? Your comment some how suggests that myself for example, didn't work harder than everyone else to get where I'm at, or play things smarter by adding the right skill sets to my resume, or take extra time away from my family to train for positions. You think things are just so much easier because of skin color? You are sorely mistaken, everything in this life is a fight for resources, get over the small shit clouding your head and work harder. Nothing comes easy, not for me or anyone I know anyway.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2016, 01:30:19 PM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.
He's a frugal, hardworking, intelligent (both engineering-wise, and people-wise.  He really knew how to read people.  Fascinating guy.)  And yes, he's an upper-middle class white male - and when you are in engineering, manufacturing, and technology - that is HUGE.  Look around.  Look "up".  Who makes up the vast majority of directors, VPs, CEOs, in my industry?  White males.

In the variety of companies that I have worked for in the last 23 years, who got most of the promotions?  White males.  It makes a difference.  People like to promote people who are "like them".  I've watched highly regarded women get overlooked, or let go - in one case, the *only* reason I could see that she got let go was because she "acted like a man".  In fact, her personality and work-method was IDENTICAL to one of the men I work with who got promoted.  Mind-boggling.  Twenty years ago one of my female coworkers got passed over for promotion twice.  She went to the director and asked why these two got promoted first (she had seniority and a higher-ranking job) and the first words out of his mouth were "you two-career couples have it SO EASY".  Now, the age of this coworker makes her approximately the age of this particular wonderful guy that I'm talking about.  Yes, something that happened 20 years ago WILL make a difference to your career trajectory.

I cannot say that it makes a difference in every industry, but it sure does in mine.  Of course, these days at my level and age, you are just as likely to have VPs and directors who are Asian or Asian-American (in my company, that would be Indian, Chinese, Koren, Japanese), but still the majority are white males.  Not a woman in the bunch, since we "let go" that last one.

And finally, and industry-wide survey puts the income gap between men and women of the same job level and experience and years of work at $14,000.  Multiply that by 25-30 years or so.  Frugality is great but cash is king.
Thank you for posting that.  It is something we all need to be aware of.
Agreed.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2016, 02:32:40 PM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.
He's a frugal, hardworking, intelligent (both engineering-wise, and people-wise.  He really knew how to read people.  Fascinating guy.)  And yes, he's an upper-middle class white male - and when you are in engineering, manufacturing, and technology - that is HUGE.  Look around.  Look "up".  Who makes up the vast majority of directors, VPs, CEOs, in my industry?  White males.

Buddy, I don't know what industry you work in, but I sure don't see it in mine. What I do see is a non existent interest from people who are not white males.... I believe it has more to do with culture in minority communities than it has to do with being oppressed, because nobody I know thinks like that. You put a fully capable person, with the right training and experience and work ethic, of any color or gender in an interview and they will get the job. But, I don't see them interview, or even apply, or show up in industry training, or in school training to get into the industry. So yea, most CEO's are white because that is 99% of the pool to select from.

Your examples of identical comparisons make me wonder if there was actually things the person did or the way they interacted with other people at work that caused a problem for themselves. I can even hear slight hints of it in the way you wrote your response.

I'm not saying there aren't some really bad people out there in positions of power that should not be, but to make a generalized statement about white privilege like that is insulting and hurtful. You know how many times I have been passed over? Who is being racist? Your comment some how suggests that myself for example, didn't work harder than everyone else to get where I'm at, or play things smarter by adding the right skill sets to my resume, or take extra time away from my family to train for positions. You think things are just so much easier because of skin color? You are sorely mistaken, everything in this life is a fight for resources, get over the small shit clouding your head and work harder. Nothing comes easy, not for me or anyone I know anyway.
ROFL, try looking at actual studies.  Yes, just by putting a non-ethic name or by using a male name vs a female can get the person an interview or the resume judged as better.  This has been studied for decades.  You don't have to like it, but yes, we know it is true.

charis

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2016, 02:38:11 PM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.
He's a frugal, hardworking, intelligent (both engineering-wise, and people-wise.  He really knew how to read people.  Fascinating guy.)  And yes, he's an upper-middle class white male - and when you are in engineering, manufacturing, and technology - that is HUGE.  Look around.  Look "up".  Who makes up the vast majority of directors, VPs, CEOs, in my industry?  White males.

In the variety of companies that I have worked for in the last 23 years, who got most of the promotions?  White males.  It makes a difference.  People like to promote people who are "like them".  I've watched highly regarded women get overlooked, or let go - in one case, the *only* reason I could see that she got let go was because she "acted like a man".  In fact, her personality and work-method was IDENTICAL to one of the men I work with who got promoted.  Mind-boggling.  Twenty years ago one of my female coworkers got passed over for promotion twice.  She went to the director and asked why these two got promoted first (she had seniority and a higher-ranking job) and the first words out of his mouth were "you two-career couples have it SO EASY".  Now, the age of this coworker makes her approximately the age of this particular wonderful guy that I'm talking about.  Yes, something that happened 20 years ago WILL make a difference to your career trajectory.

I cannot say that it makes a difference in every industry, but it sure does in mine.  Of course, these days at my level and age, you are just as likely to have VPs and directors who are Asian or Asian-American (in my company, that would be Indian, Chinese, Koren, Japanese), but still the majority are white males.  Not a woman in the bunch, since we "let go" that last one.

And finally, and industry-wide survey puts the income gap between men and women of the same job level and experience and years of work at $14,000.  Multiply that by 25-30 years or so.  Frugality is great but cash is king.
Thank you for posting that.  It is something we all need to be aware of.
Agreed.

I heard something like this today.  It wasn't said in reference to actually denying anyone a promotion, but, in essence, posited the belief that a married woman is less in need of promotion/benefits because of her husband.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2016, 02:50:38 PM »
Years back I stretched a severance package to 10.5 months off.  I spent it living out of a small camper on the back of my truck going climbing and backpacking with no permanent address.  It was the best year of my life, which pisses off my wife when I say so (she is stay-at-home, so I don't have a ton of sympathy).  It was a great preview of what I am now saving like mad to make permanent.

I worried at the time that I might get bored, I didn't.  Some rainy days kinda weren't that great due to being stuck in a small camper without much to do, sort of almost as bad as being stuck in a fabric box but without other peoples farts wafting by.

Now I am fighting burnout badly and need to figure out how to stand the next 8 years in the fabric box...

A stay at home ... what? If the next word is "parent," I think you should be pretty damn sympathetic, because that's extremely different than being a wandering rock climber with no obligations. I would rather work until the day I die than be a stay at home parent, because it seems much less pleasant.

+1

+1 again. Good lord!

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2016, 03:09:47 PM »
ROFL, try looking at actual studies.  Yes, just by putting a non-ethic name or by using a male name vs a female can get the person an interview or the resume judged as better.  This has been studied for decades.  You don't have to like it, but yes, we know it is true.

And for every sob story, we can point to someone that has overcome even worse adversity to succeed in outstanding ways.

But hey, whether you think you can or can't you're right. Right?

Be proud of who you are, stop using everything as an excuse to fail. Grow a pair and get on with things, and don't take crap from anyone.

charis

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2016, 04:39:34 PM »
ROFL, try looking at actual studies.  Yes, just by putting a non-ethic name or by using a male name vs a female can get the person an interview or the resume judged as better.  This has been studied for decades.  You don't have to like it, but yes, we know it is true.

And for every sob story, we can point to someone that has overcome even worse adversity to succeed in outstanding ways.

But hey, whether you think you can or can't you're right. Right?

Be proud of who you are, stop using everything as an excuse to fail. Grow a pair and get on with things, and don't take crap from anyone.

Assuming that you aren't a troll (which is hard at this point), you ignored the actual, real example.   Having a ethnic sounding/written name on a resume prevents people from even getting an interview.  They won't even get a chance, most of the time.   There's no, "for every . . ., there's a . . ." about it.   And if you are a minority/woman, the name of friggin game is taking crap from people.  Which you would know if you bothered to pay even a tiny bit of attention.

Gin1984

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2016, 05:34:53 PM »
ROFL, try looking at actual studies.  Yes, just by putting a non-ethic name or by using a male name vs a female can get the person an interview or the resume judged as better.  This has been studied for decades.  You don't have to like it, but yes, we know it is true.

And for every sob story, we can point to someone that has overcome even worse adversity to succeed in outstanding ways.

But hey, whether you think you can or can't you're right. Right?

Be proud of who you are, stop using everything as an excuse to fail. Grow a pair and get on with things, and don't take crap from anyone.
An actual research study is not sob story and no anecdotal statement is equivalent to years of actual hard data. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 01:11:43 PM by Gin1984 »

MgoSam

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2016, 06:31:21 PM »
...I've got a couple of friends in their 50s / 60s who have been intermittently employed.  And being frugal has been great for them. One is an old boss who has bounced around from senior engineering, director, board member, VP.  When laid off, he often took 6 months off.  His wife also worked and owned a business.  He was frugal and bought ag land, which helped with taxes.  He's picky about work, but doesn't really need to work.  I've heard a few comments here and there by people his age, talking about how lucky he is.  Well, he was frugal, for one.  He's a white male, for another...
Re: Bolded text - Awwww, c'mon, did you really have to go there? Sheesh.
He's a frugal, hardworking, intelligent (both engineering-wise, and people-wise.  He really knew how to read people.  Fascinating guy.)  And yes, he's an upper-middle class white male - and when you are in engineering, manufacturing, and technology - that is HUGE.  Look around.  Look "up".  Who makes up the vast majority of directors, VPs, CEOs, in my industry?  White males.

Buddy, I don't know what industry you work in, but I sure don't see it in mine. What I do see is a non existent interest from people who are not white males.... I believe it has more to do with culture in minority communities than it has to do with being oppressed, because nobody I know thinks like that. You put a fully capable person, with the right training and experience and work ethic, of any color or gender in an interview and they will get the job. But, I don't see them interview, or even apply, or show up in industry training, or in school training to get into the industry. So yea, most CEO's are white because that is 99% of the pool to select from.

Your examples of identical comparisons make me wonder if there was actually things the person did or the way they interacted with other people at work that caused a problem for themselves. I can even hear slight hints of it in the way you wrote your response.

I'm not saying there aren't some really bad people out there in positions of power that should not be, but to make a generalized statement about white privilege like that is insulting and hurtful. You know how many times I have been passed over? Who is being racist? Your comment some how suggests that myself for example, didn't work harder than everyone else to get where I'm at, or play things smarter by adding the right skill sets to my resume, or take extra time away from my family to train for positions. You think things are just so much easier because of skin color? You are sorely mistaken, everything in this life is a fight for resources, get over the small shit clouding your head and work harder. Nothing comes easy, not for me or anyone I know anyway.
ROFL, try looking at actual studies.  Yes, just by putting a non-ethic name or by using a male name vs a female can get the person an interview or the resume judged as better.  This has been studied for decades.  You don't have to like it, but yes, we know it is true.

Now, now, it's possible that mm just happens to work in the only industry that's immune to the effects of racism/biases.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2016, 08:06:25 AM »
"Because you have a wife and three kids to feed."
"Yeah, but we won't miss one month of income."
"I wish I was rich."

That's... I can't decide whether that's really sad, or just really stupid, that anyone equates "having enough money to not work for a month or two" with "being rich." Basically he's saying, "If you're not living paycheck to paycheck, you're rich." WTF.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2016, 08:37:04 AM »
Quote from: MgoSam
Now, now, it's possible that mm just happens to work in the only industry that's immune to the effects of racism/biases.

I think you might mean was Greenback Reproduction Specialist; mm1970 was the one who pointed out the group that made up most of the higher-ups.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2016, 08:55:56 AM »
ROFL, try looking at actual studies.  Yes, just by putting a non-ethic name or by using a male name vs a female can get the person an interview or the resume judged as better.  This has been studied for decades.  You don't have to like it, but yes, we know it is true.

And for every sob story, we can point to someone that has overcome even worse adversity to succeed in outstanding ways.

But hey, whether you think you can or can't you're right. Right?

Be proud of who you are, stop using everything as an excuse to fail. Grow a pair and get on with things, and don't take crap from anyone.
An actually research study is not sob story and no anecdotal statement is equivalent to years of actual hard data.

I'm not dismissing the study, and I'm not saying these things don't happen. All I'm saying is life isn't fair, its not fair for anyone, get over it. Throwing out, "oh he is a white male, so he has it easy" is just total BS.

Gin1984

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2016, 09:00:21 AM »
ROFL, try looking at actual studies.  Yes, just by putting a non-ethic name or by using a male name vs a female can get the person an interview or the resume judged as better.  This has been studied for decades.  You don't have to like it, but yes, we know it is true.

And for every sob story, we can point to someone that has overcome even worse adversity to succeed in outstanding ways.

But hey, whether you think you can or can't you're right. Right?

Be proud of who you are, stop using everything as an excuse to fail. Grow a pair and get on with things, and don't take crap from anyone.
An actually research study is not sob story and no anecdotal statement is equivalent to years of actual hard data.

I'm not dismissing the study, and I'm not saying these things don't happen. All I'm saying is life isn't fair, its not fair for anyone, get over it. Throwing out, "oh he is a white male, so he has it easy" is just total BS.
That was not what it said.  It said him being a white male gave him an advantage just as his other skills did.  And given that many of us here will do hiring or advise hiring, knowing the bias within our culture is important.
No one is saying not to work hard, ever heard the expression "you have to work twice as hard to be thought of as half as good"? We are just saying it has an influence.

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mm1970

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2016, 09:51:05 AM »
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Your examples of identical comparisons make me wonder if there was actually things the person did or the way they interacted with other people at work that caused a problem for themselves. I can even hear slight hints of it in the way you wrote your response.

I'm not saying there aren't some really bad people out there in positions of power that should not be, but to make a generalized statement about white privilege like that is insulting and hurtful. You know how many times I have been passed over? Who is being racist? Your comment some how suggests that myself for example, didn't work harder than everyone else to get where I'm at, or play things smarter by adding the right skill sets to my resume, or take extra time away from my family to train for positions. You think things are just so much easier because of skin color? You are sorely mistaken, everything in this life is a fight for resources, get over the small shit clouding your head and work harder. Nothing comes easy, not for me or anyone I know anyway.

My original post *just* noted that being a white male is an advantage, and certainly that was the case 40 years ago when this particular person started his career.  Privilege.  It's okay to recognize privilege. It *does not* mean that you didn't work for it.  It is *no* reason to feel guilty. 

In my particular example, I had hints.  Okay, to be more specific.  We had one particular (male) engineer who happened to be next to worthless.  He talked a good game but didn't show up for work often, was denigrating to the other employees - mostly younger but hey, he'd attack anyone if it made him look good. I learned this quickly and made sure he knew in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that throwing me under the bus would get him nowhere because I had 15 more years of experience in the industry.  Also, he was technically incapable (or unwilling) to do the job. But he was loud.  He would always speak up in meeting with authority.  Even though 90% of the time he was wrong.  He always interrupted people in meetings. He consistently threw others under the bus, especially if it was his own errors.  Also, he happened to "suck up" to the CEO and President. Whenever he could put himself in a meeting with them, or "happen" to be around them, he'd butter them up (also: they are from the same country of origin, aka, not white).  First, our boss tried to fire him.  Management (CEO/Pres) decided instead to put him on a PIP.  Next, we had a large round of layoffs.  Our group was to lose 50%.  So, again, our boss put him first on the list. Pres saved him again and moved him into a new, director level position.  Luckily, there were enough people left with the qualifications needed to get the work done that it got done, despite him.

We  hired a woman in from outside as a director, doing similar work.  She read him very quickly and made sure to NOT work directly with him AND to report directly to the new CEO (who was not from the same country of origin of the other few).  Her characteristics were similar to his. She spoke with authority in meetings.  She was aggressive and opinionated.  She interrupted people.  She became a VP after another layoff.  The main difference is that she actually  had experience in the industry and you knew that if she said something in a meeting?  It was correct, not just made up BS.  Round 3 of layoffs she was LET GO.  At that level they never tell you why, but other directors hinted at her personality.  Which, as I mentioned, was nearly IDENTICAL to the guy who was promoted.

Anyway.  As far as racial bias goes, I have seen a little bit of it here and there.  Strangely, in my industry (semiconductors), it's more a grouping of white/Indian/Chinese.

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And for every sob story, we can point to someone that has overcome even worse adversity to succeed in outstanding ways.

But hey, whether you think you can or can't you're right. Right?

Be proud of who you are, stop using everything as an excuse to fail. Grow a pair and get on with things, and don't take crap from anyone

The two are not mutually exclusive, you realize that right?  First, statistically, you are incorrect.  For every sob story there is NOT someone who overcame whatever.  In fact, the two likely happen together, to the same people.

I've worked my ass off over the years, to come from a poor rural kid - first to go to college.  Straight As in HS, top-ten engineering school, military, master's degree, engineering, manufacturing, development, six patents.  I've managed projects, people, done all sorts of great things in my industry.  I'm a SUCCESS.

But shoot, it's not hard to look up and around and realize that there are exactly zero female directors at my company.  I don't take crap, but that doesn't exactly get you promoted.  I had two superb bosses who cared only about how you got things done.  Then I got a new one, and he was a train wreck.  That was the end of any possible promotion for me.

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That was not what it said.  It said him being a white male gave him an advantage just as his other skills did.  And given that many of us here will do hiring or advise hiring, knowing the bias within our culture is important.
No one is saying not to work hard, ever heard the expression "you have to work twice as hard to be thought of as half as good"? We are just saying it has an influence.

Yes, this.  If we don't recognize it, we cannot fix it.

Goldielocks

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2016, 11:53:41 AM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

Greenback Reproduction Specialist

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2016, 11:55:32 AM »
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My original post *just* noted that being a white male is an advantage, and certainly that was the case 40 years ago when this particular person started his career.  Privilege.  It's okay to recognize privilege. It *does not* mean that you didn't work for it.  It is *no* reason to feel guilty.....

mm, your last reply I can relate to a lot more... After reading it I thought maybe I misread your initial comment about being a white maleÖ. I get how in your real world example it appears there is bias, I would tend to agree based on what you said. However, after re-reading the initial comment, it still gets me worked up. I canít help it, I do take offense to that blanket statement. Iím not sure how else to take it, but I also get how someone in your position would feel watching a situation like that.

BTW I also work in engineering, in the semi-conductor industry. I have also worked in 5 different commercial and industrial consulting engineering firms. Some are good old boys clubs, and some are not, Iím sure thatís pretty typical in any business.


That was not what it said.  It said him being a white male gave him an advantage just as his other skills did.  And given that many of us here will do hiring or advise hiring, knowing the bias within our culture is important.
No one is saying not to work hard, ever heard the expression "you have to work twice as hard to be thought of as half as good"? We are just saying it has an influence.

I agree in the last post, it appears his nationality gave him an advantage. Gender and nationality probably gave him an advantage in that situation. The guy was smart and played his cards well to give him an edge.

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2016, 12:05:49 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

I agree... Or want to agree, because he makes a good point that benefits my argument.

But I still just don't buy excuses, there are always creative ways to tackle and overcome resistance and get a fresh start.


Gin1984

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2016, 12:15:32 PM »
Okay, folks.   you are ignoring one thing about this white male privilege thing...

A white, educated male who has been out of work for 8+ years is no longer privileged, as it definitely works against them, even more so that women trying to rejoin the workforce after having kids.

As soon as one is thought to be a society sucking bum of some sort (such as a SAHD, long term unemployed in a single resource town, etc), all bets are off.

I agree... Or want to agree, because he makes a good point that benefits my argument.

But I still just don't buy excuses, there are always creative ways to tackle and overcome resistance and get a fresh start.
Except that is NOT what the research shows.  When you look at males and females that took time out from the workplace, the gender gap is still there.  There have been multiple studies that show that women who stay out and then reenter make less than men that do the exact same action (this was specific to stay at home parents). 
Researchers have also looked at the response to a male leaving early to pick up kids vs a female. And as a result, my husband often does the pick up and I do the drop off because there is no effect (or a benefit depending on the study) for a man leaving to pick his kids up and there is for a woman. 
Instead of being upset by these facts being given and therefore deciding we must be wrong, why not do some reading and then decide what YOU are going to do given the facts, if you are bothered by them.  I hope someone smart enough to be trying to FIRE would choose action, not putting their head in the sand.

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Pooplips

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Re: "Why would you want to do that?"
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2016, 01:05:33 PM »
I am now aware of white privilge. I hope everyone feels better now.

To the OP Congrats on your time off!!