The Money Mustache Community
Around the Internet => Antimustachian Wall of Shame and Comedy => Topic started by: Kris on July 07, 2015, 10:03:03 AM
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http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/tea-party-historian-says-bible-commands-humans-to-work-until-death-god-did-not-design-us-for-retirement/
"Tea Party historian" made me laugh hard enough as it was, but the rest of it was even more hilarious.
I guess we're all going to hell.
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Sure, he is bat shit crazy.
But he has a point, people work hard all their life focused on a career, retire, and then die because they lay around. Just because there is a sliver of truth doesn't make him less bat shit crazy, but he does have a point. Just don't confuse "retire" with "quit being productive" and move on... it's not that complicated and nothing to do with god, Babylon, or any other loony toon aspect he goes on about.
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lololololol
I have nothing more to add.
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I think those stats on how quickly people die after retirement are getting the causation backwards in many cases. A lot of time people retire because they are physically unhealthy and can't do it anymore. Not shocking that they have a shorter time to live. A vigorously healthy person is more likely to keep working longer.
But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
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Definitely agree with Forrummm that the causation is backwards. People retire 3 years before death because their body is failing. They physically and mentally can't do the job anymore, so they are forced to retire.
Most people can't retire and maintain their lifestyles. They haven't saved and they don't want to save. 40 hours a week is worth the fancy cars and vacations, so they keep doing it until they can't. They aren't choosing to retire in most cases, they are being forced to retire.
Lastly, going to hell has nothing to do with the amount one sins, so even if this guy is correct, it has no bearing on whether or not you are going to hell.
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I'm surprised he didn't take the next logical step and demand that Social Security and 401(k)s be ended to conform to "God's plan," which is surprisingly similar to our corporate overlord's plan, of work 'til you die...
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I think those stats on how quickly people die after retirement are getting the causation backwards in many cases. A lot of time people retire because they are physically unhealthy and can't do it anymore. Not shocking that they have a shorter time to live. A vigorously healthy person is more likely to keep working longer.
But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
Think about how much longer the average person that works til 90 lives than the one that retires at 45. Most of the people who retire at 45 would be lucky to make it to 85 much less 90. Clearly working til you are 90 makes you live longer. I don't see how anyone can dispute that logic:)
Seriously there is such a huge difference between retiring when you have x million and the bank and don't need the money and retiring because you have been diagnosised with stage 4 lung cancer is pretty huge. For most pre60 retirees, health/loss of job drivers retirement more than lack of money. Of course maybe the reason these people got cancer is because God didn't think they were being productive enough and was culling them to make room for other people. :)
Seriously if you can't prove just about any point using the bible, you are not trying hard enough.
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That makes me sad. I grew up listening to wackos like that, and a lot of people in his audience will take that shit seriously and literally to their own detriment.
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http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/tea-party-historian-says-bible-commands-humans-to-work-until-death-god-did-not-design-us-for-retirement/
"Tea Party historian" made me laugh hard enough as it was, but the rest of it was even more hilarious.
I guess we're all going to hell.
Instead of him making a living by talking, I'd like to see Mr David Barton perform hard physical labor in a stressful environment for 8 to 12 hours per day, 6 to 7 days per week for a few years (I would say a few decades, but I note that he is already gray haired), and then let's ask him again how he feels about retirement.
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Where in the Bible does it say "thou shalt perform services for others in exchange for payment until you die?"
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But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
I was wondering something like this, too. Usually when fundamentalists go off, you can sort of understand what's behind it, and most often it has something to do with their fury at the idea that anyone might be having consequence-free sex. But this one is a mystery. Why does David Barton give a shit when anyone retires?
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For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
That sounds plausible.:)
Boo. I'm going to have to move to Babylon.
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I think those stats on how quickly people die after retirement are getting the causation backwards in many cases. A lot of time people retire because they are physically unhealthy and can't do it anymore. Not shocking that they have a shorter time to live. A vigorously healthy person is more likely to keep working longer.
But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
Millenia? You need a better dictionary.
Sloth is one of the seven deadlies. If he's right about anything, it's true that we aren't supposed to laze around, it's unhealthy. Even an atheist can get on board with that concept. In terms of who should work, for how long and for how much money is a far more complicated question than you'll ever find answered in any rawstory item.
Gonzo journalism & click bait is all this was.
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I think those stats on how quickly people die after retirement are getting the causation backwards in many cases. A lot of time people retire because they are physically unhealthy and can't do it anymore. Not shocking that they have a shorter time to live. A vigorously healthy person is more likely to keep working longer.
But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
Millenia? You need a better dictionary.
Irony.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/millennia
Be fruitful and multiply was maybe 5000 years ago? The Onan story was OT too (and misinterpreted of course).
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"Tea Party historian" made me laugh hard enough as it was, but the rest of it was even more hilarious.
Shouldn't a "tea party historian" be a person who studies the history of the tea party? That's what "Civil War historian" or "Russian Revolution historian" mean. Instead, this appears to be an indication of the historian's bias.
How old is the "Richest Man in Babylon" story? So this Tea Party douche might be right about the source of the idea of retirement. But a quick google search gives us:
Numbers 8:24-26 “Now regarding a descendant of Levi who is 25 years and above, he is to enter work in the service at the appointed place of meeting, but starting at 50 years of age, he is to retire from service and is no longer to work. He may minister to his brothers at the Tent of Meeting by keeping watch, but he is not to engage in service. This is how you are to act with respect to the obligations of the descendants of Levi.”
So, I'm sure the people who swear by the bible will all be clamouring for lowering the retirement age to 50. At least for descendants of Levi, which should be everybody on the planet by now.
-=crickets=-
Toque.
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(Full Disclosure: I'm a Christian)
Fact: this guy is totally wrong on so many levels. There are literally dozens of passages in the Bible that contradict his statement.
Here is one easy example in Ecclesiastes 4 "And I saw that all toil and all achievement spring from one person's envy of another. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind...Better one handful with tranquility than two handfuls with toil and chasing after the wind."
In fact, MMM-philosophy regarding saving, early retirement, financial freedom etc. is far more in line with Biblical principles than any other financial guidance I've ever see (including Dave Ramsey *gasp*)
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I may as well be honest and point out I'm not a Christian.
My point was a bit different: the bible can be used to prove whatever your preconceived notions are. Ecclesiastes is good for proving a lot of things I like to believe, while, for instance, Thess is used for things I believe a lot less:
http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/3-10.htm
"For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.""
So there's that, which certainly sounds like an anti-retirement message. But good for all of you who are finding Mustachian ways to make your religions work for you, instead of using them as a rationalization to cut other people down on their own life journeys.
Toque.
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My point was a bit different: the bible can be used to prove whatever your preconceived notions are. Ecclesiastes is good for proving a lot of things I like to believe, while, for instance, Thess is used for things I believe a lot less:
http://biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/3-10.htm
"For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.""
Fair point. Like you, I also strongly disagree with the strategy to form an opinion and then find facts to support your opinion. It should be the other way around.
However, I do think Thess. is talking about something different than Ecclesiastes. The next sentences in that passage are "We hear that some among you are idle and disruptive. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the food they eat."
I think we can probably all picture someone we have known that is idle and disruptive. Being a busybody is something we should all avoid, retired or not. If one's retirement is full of idleness, they would probably find life more fulfilling if they returned to some kind of work. I doubt the retirement police would like that message, but I think it's totally in line with the MMM philosophy of staying busy and finding meaningful activity in retirement.
Back to original point: this "Tea Party Historian" appears to have formed an opinion and then did a google search to find one random verse that can *weakly* support it.
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Teabillies tend to be fundamentalists and "Christian" fundamentalists prefer to selectively use "laws" from the Old Testament (aka Jewish scripture) instead of Jesus' commandments in the New Testament (aka Christian scripture). They do this because it suits their purposes to command people to do things that improve their own well-being at the cost of other people. They choose to ignore all the inconvenient "laws" of the Old Testament, such as not cutting side-locks of hair, not eating most seafood, not eating pork, etc. Fundamentalists are very strange people. They have pretty much created their own religion separate from actual Christianity. Fundamentalists have a lot in common with Mormons.
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In fact, MMM-philosophy regarding saving, early retirement, financial freedom etc. is far more in line with Biblical principles than any other financial guidance I've ever see (including Dave Ramsey *gasp*)
All depends on what section you are reading:)
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Lastly, going to hell has nothing to do with the amount one sins, so even if this guy is correct, it has no bearing on whether or not you are going to hell.
Well, I'm not Catholic, but I think in Catholicism, one needs good works as well as grace to go to heaven, so... Oh, but wait, he's not Catholic and presumably believes one is saved by grace alone. Never mind.
Sloth is one of the seven deadliest sins
Except I don't think the seven deadly sins are in the Bible; there is a sort of similar list in Proverbs, but sloth isn't on it. The concept of the Seven Deadly Sins comes from Pope Gregory via John the Ascetic and Evagrius. Again, very Catholic, so it would be weird for an Evangelical ("the Bible is everything!!!") to use this as the basis for his ravings claims.
How old is the "Richest Man in Babylon" story? So this Tea Party douche might be right about the source of the idea of retirement.
Wait, is that where he's getting the Babylon thing from?!? The Richest Man in Babylon is from the 1920s... AD/CE.
But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
For some random reason, "religious" "leaders" like this guy and con artists prosperity gospel preachers like Creflo Dollar make me want to bust out some Isaiah:
Woe to those who enact evil statutes And to those who constantly record unjust decisions, So as to deprive the needy of justice And rob the poor of My people of their rights, So that widows may be their spoil And that they may plunder the orphans. Now what will you do in the day of punishment, And in the devastation which will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth?
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They choose to ignore all the inconvenient "laws" of the Old Testament, such as not cutting side-locks of hair, not eating most seafood, not eating pork, etc. Fundamentalists are very strange people. They have pretty much created their own religion separate from actual Christianity. Fundamentalists have a lot in common with Mormons.
If someone doesn't want to eat pork because of the Old Testament, it's no skin off my back. What pisses me off about these fundamentalists is that they seem to think that everyone should follow their batshit laws, regardless of belief.
I don't really care what religion is, that's their business.
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I think those stats on how quickly people die after retirement are getting the causation backwards in many cases. A lot of time people retire because they are physically unhealthy and can't do it anymore. Not shocking that they have a shorter time to live. A vigorously healthy person is more likely to keep working longer.
But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
Millenia? You need a better dictionary.
Irony.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/millennia
Be fruitful and multiply was maybe 5000 years ago? The Onan story was OT too (and misinterpreted of course).
No. Really. The Church, as in Catholic, has had a beef with contraception for a little over 500 years. "Be fruitful... " means more than make babies. If you're thinking it's a mandate to procreate in Judaism, it's a bit weird to call Judaism "the church."
This was a Christian of some denomination, borrowing an idea from a Rabbi, actually, and speaking to other like minded people. It isn't especially controversial.....even for people who don't have any faith. Idleness or inertia is unhealthy. There isn't a biblical mandate to continue exchanging labor for wages all the days of your life, nor is he claiming it.
If as you suggest, he's encouraging believers to make more money so they can tithe more ---again, that's a weird thing to attribute to 'the church' when 'the church' is most often Catholic Church. You won't find any "prosperity gospel" shit there, as it contradicts both scripture and the catechism.
Bottom line -- it's really fishing to get bugged about what this guy has said.
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Numbers 8:24-26 “Now regarding a descendant of Levi who is 25 years and above, he is to enter work in the service at the appointed place of meeting, but starting at 50 years of age, he is to retire from service and is no longer to work. He may minister to his brothers at the Tent of Meeting by keeping watch, but he is not to engage in service. This is how you are to act with respect to the obligations of the descendants of Levi.”
So, I'm sure the people who swear by the bible will all be clamouring for lowering the retirement age to 50. At least for descendants of Levi, which should be everybody on the planet by now.
From what I have heard (and read at Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levite)), the Levites were one of the tribes of Israel, and handled many of the religious duties. So it might not be entirely surprising that the Jewish religious doctrine of the time included special benefits for Levites that didn't apply to other people.
You could presumably use this passage to make the argument that people who act as priests and other religious positions should get earlier retirement and be supported by other members of the society.
Personally, I think that would be ****ing stupid.
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I think those stats on how quickly people die after retirement are getting the causation backwards in many cases. A lot of time people retire because they are physically unhealthy and can't do it anymore. Not shocking that they have a shorter time to live. A vigorously healthy person is more likely to keep working longer.
But I think there's another interesting story going on here. For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
Millenia? You need a better dictionary.
Irony.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/millennia
Be fruitful and multiply was maybe 5000 years ago? The Onan story was OT too (and misinterpreted of course).
No. Really. The Church, as in Catholic, has had a beef with contraception for a little over 500 years. "Be fruitful... " means more than make babies. If you're thinking it's a mandate to procreate in Judaism, it's a bit weird to call Judaism "the church."
This was a Christian of some denomination, borrowing an idea from a Rabbi, actually, and speaking to other like minded people. It isn't especially controversial.....even for people who don't have any faith. Idleness or inertia is unhealthy. There isn't a biblical mandate to continue exchanging labor for wages all the days of your life, nor is he claiming it.
If as you suggest, he's encouraging believers to make more money so they can tithe more ---again, that's a weird thing to attribute to 'the church' when 'the church' is most often Catholic Church. You won't find any "prosperity gospel" shit there, as it contradicts both scripture and the catechism.
Bottom line -- it's really fishing to get bugged about what this guy has said.
You said I needed a dictionary to lookup "millennia", and misspelled "millennia". Hence the irony.
Not sure why you decided the Catholic church is the only Christian church. And the Christian church broadly has been peddling both OT and NT messages for millennia.
I personally never said whether the "tea party historian's" message was a good representation of what was in the Bible. But since we're here, I'm sure you can find stuff to support his message and stuff that opposes it. The beauty of religious texts is that you can generally find what you want to in there somewhere.
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The beauty of religious texts is that you can generally find what you want to in there somewhere.
It's a lot like cold reading in that way.
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I was wondering something like this, too. Usually when fundamentalists go off, you can sort of understand what's behind it, and most often it has something to do with their fury at the idea that anyone might be having consequence-free sex. But this one is a mystery. Why does David Barton give a shit when anyone retires?
Considering that apologists of his kind typically start with their political agenda and then shoehorn religion in to justify it, I can only assume this is intended to give aid and comfort to the idea of gutting Social Security and/or Medicare.
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I was wondering something like this, too. Usually when fundamentalists go off, you can sort of understand what's behind it, and most often it has something to do with their fury at the idea that anyone might be having consequence-free sex. But this one is a mystery. Why does David Barton give a shit when anyone retires?
Considering that apologists of his kind typically start with their political agenda and then shoehorn religion in to justify it, I can only assume this is intended to give aid and comfort to the idea of gutting Social Security and/or Medicare.
This is the lens I viewed it through. He's identified as "Tea Party" as a short hand for the idea that he supports cutting many government programs, probably including programs that allow old people to stop working.
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I read somewhere something similar coming from Jeb Bush. I believe he said "People need to work longer hours". I would agree on it if you are broke and in debt, working more hours and lowering your expenses would be a good thing, but I am not sure if thats what he meant when he said that or if he actually meant that people should all work longer hours...even mustachians.
PS. I am not starting a political debate, afterall I am canadian, I just wanted to mention his quote, because it is somewhat similar to what the Tea Party said.
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I thought the bible said you were supposed to sit around and wait for handouts from the man ?
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
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I read somewhere something similar coming from Jeb Bush. I believe he said "People need to work longer hours". I would agree on it if you are broke and in debt, working more hours and lowering your expenses would be a good thing, but I am not sure if thats what he meant when he said that or if he actually meant that people should all work longer hours...even mustachians.
PS. I am not starting a political debate, afterall I am canadian, I just wanted to mention his quote, because it is somewhat similar to what the Tea Party said.
This really grinds my gears. You read a headline and then threw it out there when a quick Google search could have gotten the whole quote.
My aspiration for the country and I believe we can achieve it, is 4 percent growth as far as the eye can see. Which means we have to be a lot more productive, workforce participation has to rise from its all-time modern lows. It means that people need to work longer hours” and, through their productivity, gain more income for their families. That's the only way we're going to get out of this rut that we're in
You can argue about the merits and "out of touchness" of that quote, but at least do it from a full perspective of what he was saying, not just a half remembered headline from a news network that probably doesn't want him to become president.
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I thought the bible said you were supposed to sit around and wait for handouts from the man ?
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
Thanks a lot, Obama :P
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I thought the bible said you were supposed to sit around and wait for handouts from the man ?
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
Yeah, here's the thing about the bible. It's a really big book and if you take a single line it will say just about anything you want it to. One should be taking the whole thing and drawing meaning from it, not single phrases from here and there. That's just bad theology.
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I thought the bible said you were supposed to sit around and wait for handouts from the man ?
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
Yeah, here's the thing about the bible. It's a really big book and if you take a single line it will say just about anything you want it to. One should be taking the whole thing and drawing meaning from it, not single phrases from here and there. That's just bad theology.
Or just ignore it altogether, since it's just a book of old stories that were written for people thousands of years ago, and changed many times during copying and translation, and filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, and really doesn't have much bearing on actual life. Some of the themes are great. Others not so great.
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Or just ignore it altogether, since it's just a book of old stories that were written for people thousands of years ago, and changed many times during copying and translation, and filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, and really doesn't have much bearing on actual life. Some of the themes are great. Others not so great.
Even as an atheist I quite enjoy parts of it. Mostly Solomon's pieces - even though he was a ridiculous spendypants, he seems to have learned a thing or two from having it all - mostly that it doesn't make you any happier, and a pretty simple life is the best.
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I thought the bible said you were supposed to sit around and wait for handouts from the man ?
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
Yeah, here's the thing about the bible. It's a really big book and if you take a single line it will say just about anything you want it to. One should be taking the whole thing and drawing meaning from it, not single phrases from here and there. That's just bad theology.
Or just ignore it altogether, since it's just a book of old stories that were written for people thousands of years ago, and changed many times during copying and translation, and filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, and really doesn't have much bearing on actual life. Some of the themes are great. Others not so great.
Well, that's your opinion, but some people don't like imagining a universe where they are inconsequential and unimportant and where the only motivations are to acquire material possessions and procreate before they die and return to nothingness. Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
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I'm doing my best to be nice, but this is off base in at least three ways:
Well, that's your opinion, but some people don't like imagining a universe where they are inconsequential and unimportant
Argument from consequence (a logical fallacy). The way it would make you feel, were it the proven truth, has absolutely no bearing on whether such is the case.
...and where the only motivations are to acquire material possessions and procreate before they die and return to nothingness.
Says who? I barely think about those things at all. Mostly I'm worried about leaving the world a better place for its own sake.
Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
Atheism is by definition not a religion. It is the lack of a belief in any deities. Occasionally one does encounter atheists with behavior resembling that of religious people, but I can't speak for them; I can only speak to the total lack of justification for generalizing that behavior to all of us.
Babies are all born atheist. Some are later conditioned to become otherwise.
Note that I'm not arguing against the existence of whatever god you believe in, nor do we have to get into that right now. I'm not really into that stuff anyway. But the above are common misconceptions and misrepresentations that should be avoided, regardless of your beliefs or opinions.
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Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
Atheism is by definition not a religion. It is the lack of a belief in any deities. Occasionally one does encounter atheists with behavior resembling that of religious people, but I can't speak for them; I can only speak to the total lack of justification for generalizing that behavior to all of us.
Babies are all born atheist. Some are later conditioned to become otherwise.
Note that I'm not arguing against the existence of whatever god you believe in, nor do we have to get into that right now. I'm not really into that stuff anyway. But the above are common misconceptions and misrepresentations that should be avoided, regardless of your beliefs or opinions.
Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
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I thought the bible said you were supposed to sit around and wait for handouts from the man ?
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
Yeah, here's the thing about the bible. It's a really big book and if you take a single line it will say just about anything you want it to. One should be taking the whole thing and drawing meaning from it, not single phrases from here and there. That's just bad theology.
Or just ignore it altogether, since it's just a book of old stories that were written for people thousands of years ago, and changed many times during copying and translation, and filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, and really doesn't have much bearing on actual life. Some of the themes are great. Others not so great.
Well, that's your opinion, but some people don't like imagining a universe where they are inconsequential and unimportant and where the only motivations are to acquire material possessions and procreate before they die and return to nothingness. Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
Realizing that the Bible is not what people say it is doesn't mean you have to be an atheist. Or that you can't believe in an afterlife or a higher power or some greater purpose in life. Or that your goal has to be accumulating possessions.
But if you're just believing this stuff to make yourself feel better, that seems misguided.
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I thought the bible said you were supposed to sit around and wait for handouts from the man ?
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"
Yeah, here's the thing about the bible. It's a really big book and if you take a single line it will say just about anything you want it to. One should be taking the whole thing and drawing meaning from it, not single phrases from here and there. That's just bad theology.
Or just ignore it altogether, since it's just a book of old stories that were written for people thousands of years ago, and changed many times during copying and translation, and filled with contradictions and inconsistencies, and really doesn't have much bearing on actual life. Some of the themes are great. Others not so great.
That's fine too, just don't throw the whole batch of us in with this guy just because we read from the same book.
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I think we all need to be respectful of each other's opinions and choices, especially choices so personal like religious beliefs.
Back to the OP's link: regardless of your beliefs, actions like those of David Barton who manipulate people's beliefs for political gain are despicable.
There is a weird subset of church culture (at least here in the South) that implies being right-wing politically is part of being a good Christian. I haven't found to be true among younger people (mostly occurring with the baby-boomer age range); nevertheless, the evangelical political candidate appears to be at an all-time high in popularity. Probably at least half of the GOP candidates are expressly going after the "evangelical base" of the Republican party.
Quotes like Barton's drag all Christians equally through the mud in society's eyes. This is a sad state of affairs for the church. Not only will our country's politics benefit from separation from the church, but the church will benefit as well.
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Realizing that the Bible is not what people say it is doesn't mean you have to be an atheist. Or that you can't believe in an afterlife or a higher power or some greater purpose in life. Or that your goal has to be accumulating possessions.
But if you're just believing this stuff to make yourself feel better, that seems misguided.
I suppose you could be one of the "New Age" people and if that helps you feel good, then whatever. This is America.
The fact that religion helps people feel better is probably the number one reason why studies consistently show that religious people in the United States are happier than atheists. Being happier leads to better quality of life.
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Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
You are making sweeping generalizations about things you don't know, based on cherry-picked data points.
Do you know why sweeping generalizations are so ill-advised? Because one counterexample is all it takes.
I am an atheist and I don't worship any of those people, or take advice from them on how to live my life, or congregate in atheist gatherings for hope and comfort. You can repeat your assertion that lacking belief in deities somehow implies a religion as many times you want, and it will forever remain 100% illogical and false. And I don't know any atheists who "believe in the mystical power of meta-physics". WTF does that even mean?
Side note: still not arguing against theism here, just to keep the record straight. Because I really don't care if you believe in any gods. I welcome you to take part in any faith observance that makes you happy without infringing on others' happiness.
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The fact that religion helps people feel better is probably the number one reason why studies consistently show that religious people in the United States are happier than atheists. Being happier leads to better quality of life.
I'm sure it has nothing to do with atheists being marginalized and misrepresented by a Christian majority (see above), or with the neverending attempts by Dominionists to establish a theocracy in the U.S.A.
Actually though, even in the deep South, I think I'm happier than the average person... probably because I'm happy to live and let live, and I don't make an issue of faith (or lack thereof).
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Realizing that the Bible is not what people say it is doesn't mean you have to be an atheist. Or that you can't believe in an afterlife or a higher power or some greater purpose in life. Or that your goal has to be accumulating possessions.
But if you're just believing this stuff to make yourself feel better, that seems misguided.
I suppose you could be one of the "New Age" people and if that helps you feel good, then whatever. This is America.
The fact that religion helps people feel better is probably the number one reason why studies consistently show that religious people in the United States are happier than atheists. Being happier leads to better quality of life.
Are you choosing to believe in a religion as a way to make yourself happy? And not because you genuinely believe it's true? That seems misguided.
Also: http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcommunity/2013/09/religious-believers-more-depressed-than-atheists-study.html
http://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2012/04/are-religious-people-happier-atheists
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/healthy-skepticism/
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Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
Atheism is by definition not a religion. It is the lack of a belief in any deities. Occasionally one does encounter atheists with behavior resembling that of religious people, but I can't speak for them; I can only speak to the total lack of justification for generalizing that behavior to all of us.
Babies are all born atheist. Some are later conditioned to become otherwise.
Note that I'm not arguing against the existence of whatever god you believe in, nor do we have to get into that right now. I'm not really into that stuff anyway. But the above are common misconceptions and misrepresentations that should be avoided, regardless of your beliefs or opinions.
Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
What the hell are you even babbling about? Meta physics? None of this applies to me, and certainly not to most atheists.
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Even as an atheist I quite enjoy parts of it. Mostly Solomon's pieces - even though he was a ridiculous spendypants, he seems to have learned a thing or two from having it all - mostly that it doesn't make you any happier, and a pretty simple life is the best.
Word. Ecclesiastes is a great book. One of the few books of the Old Testament that I found enjoyable, and I'm a bookworm by nature. Of course, I was reading the KJV, which is ridiculously opaque.
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Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
Atheism is by definition not a religion. It is the lack of a belief in any deities. Occasionally one does encounter atheists with behavior resembling that of religious people, but I can't speak for them; I can only speak to the total lack of justification for generalizing that behavior to all of us.
Babies are all born atheist. Some are later conditioned to become otherwise.
Note that I'm not arguing against the existence of whatever god you believe in, nor do we have to get into that right now. I'm not really into that stuff anyway. But the above are common misconceptions and misrepresentations that should be avoided, regardless of your beliefs or opinions.
Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Atheist means the person don't believe in supernatural beings. That's it. They have no other common features. Might as well have a group for people who don't believe in unicorns. Or the group I'm sure you belong to: people who don't believe in the existence of Thor/Jupiter/Zeus? I don't walk around every day thinking about by disbelief, or pondering the non-existence of gods. Or read tomes about the lack of supernatural beings.
Do you read books about, and go to meetings to discuss your disbelief in Thor? Thought not. It's the same for many (most?) atheists.
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Mostly Solomon's pieces - even though he was a ridiculous spendypants
To be fair he did have 700 wives and 300 mistresses - the bill for flowers alone is a killer
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I've started a Jesus's Anonymous group so we can go to weekly meetings and discuss how to get him out of our lives. If anyone would like to join JA with me just send me a PM. I was sitting under an apple tree when a book fell on my head it was called - an atheists guide to life - this will become our book and we will move to hawaii and start a
church. BAR
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
I didn't attack your person, I just said your argument is stupid. And I honestly thought it must be a joke, and a reasonably funny one at that.
"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people"
- Mr Garrison
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
(http://www.ultimaterob.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/winning-charlie-sheen-sweatshirts_design-660x378.png)
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
EDITED because things are unnecessarily ugly today and I don't want to be part of the problem.
MoneyCat - I don't support personal attacks either but some of what you posted earlier was both disingenuous and insulting to an entire class of people. I would respectfully request that you try to see things from the other side of that, and I also encourage you to consider the possibility that not all atheists are exactly like the angry evangelistic ones you know on TV.
Zephyr out :P
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I've started a Jesus's Anonymous group so we can go to weekly meetings and discuss how to get him out of our lives. If anyone would like to join JA with me just send me a PM. I was sitting under an apple tree when a book fell on my head it was called - an atheists guide to life - this will become our book and we will move to hawaii and start a church. BAR
I'm planning on buying the tiniest shittiest place in HI that I can afford, sometime in the next couple of years. I'll fully support this.
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
EDITED because things are unnecessarily ugly today and I don't want to be part of the problem.
MoneyCat - I don't support personal attacks either but some of what you posted earlier was both disingenuous and insulting to an entire class of people. I would respectfully request that you try to see things from the other side of that, and I also encourage you to consider the possibility that not all atheists are exactly like the angry evangelistic ones you know on TV.
Zephyr out :P
And I would respectfully add that MoneyCat's definition of 'winning' is strange if they believe it involves presenting an incorrect and incoherent 'argument' and then patting themselves on the back about the inevitable rubber-necking disbelief the statement engenders.
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
EDITED because things are unnecessarily ugly today and I don't want to be part of the problem.
MoneyCat - I don't support personal attacks either but some of what you posted earlier was both disingenuous and insulting to an entire class of people. I would respectfully request that you try to see things from the other side of that, and I also encourage you to consider the possibility that not all atheists are exactly like the angry evangelistic ones you know on TV.
Zephyr out :P
And I would respectfully add that MoneyCat's definition of 'winning' is strange if they believe it involves presenting an incorrect and incoherent 'argument' and then patting themselves on the back about the inevitable rubber-necking disbelief the statement engenders.
That pretty much describes Charlie Sheen, doesn't it?
I'm an atheist and I found MoneyCat's description of atheism very silly, so silly that I too thought it was a joke. If having a Facebook group makes you a religion, then my high school is a religion and so is my bicycling club.
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Mostly Solomon's pieces - even though he was a ridiculous spendypants
To be fair he did have 700 wives and 300 mistresses - the bill for flowers alone is a killer
I love the fact that I am on a site where when Solomon is mentioned it is in the context of being a ridiculous spendy-pants. Perhaps we could start another topic on "Religious Figures and Their Finances - Do They Live Up to Mustachian Principles?"
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For millennia, the church has tried to get people to have more babies (restricting contraception, etc) to increase the number in the church. Now they are trying to get them to make more money too. Could it be so they have more to give to the church?
That sounds plausible.:)
Boo. I'm going to have to move to Babylon.
Careful. They're having a war at the moment...
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
Hold on a sec. Your post wasn't a joke? You seriously meant the following:
Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
You don't get to post something this wrong and ignorant about someone else's (non)beliefs and then complain about them fighting back. I guess the amusing thing is that none of the atheists flagged your post as abusive, probably because the assumption was that it was a joke, while several people flagged the response.
No, my friend. The personal attack started with your (apparently non-joking) gross mischaracterization of atheism.
Toque.
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Perhaps we could start another topic on "Religious Figures and Their Finances - Do They Live Up to Mustachian Principles?"
Runs own construction business for for 6 days then retires ...
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
Hold on a sec. Your post wasn't a joke? You seriously meant the following:
Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
You don't get to post something this wrong and ignorant about someone else's (non)beliefs and then complain about them fighting back. I guess the amusing thing is that none of the atheists flagged your post as abusive, probably because the assumption was that it was a joke, while several people flagged the response.
No, my friend. The personal attack started with your (apparently non-joking) gross mischaracterization of atheism.
Toque.
Though in full disclosure, I do have rather a crush on Tyson...and not in a pope-like way. Come to think, I also have a little crush on the Pope LOL! Maybe I'm just a slut! (We atheists are like that, of course. NO MORALS).
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I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Thank you for the personal attack. I love when I win easy victories in debates.
Hold on a sec. Your post wasn't a joke? You seriously meant the following:
Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
You don't get to post something this wrong and ignorant about someone else's (non)beliefs and then complain about them fighting back. I guess the amusing thing is that none of the atheists flagged your post as abusive, probably because the assumption was that it was a joke, while several people flagged the response.
No, my friend. The personal attack started with your (apparently non-joking) gross mischaracterization of atheism.
Toque.
Though in full disclosure, I do have rather a crush on Tyson...and not in a pope-like way. Come to think, I also have a little crush on the Pope LOL! Maybe I'm just a slut! (We atheists are like that, of course. NO MORALS).
meh, the new pope is lame. The last guy was so much better!
(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=JN.Gr/gzSo7pbRmHEqfGAGOnw&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0&r=0)
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Oh, yes, let's have a discussion about Thor. But which Thor? The Iron Druid Thor? The Urban Shaman Thor? Or some other Thor?
OK, I'll be serious. ;-) Although still a bit OT.
Agnostics seem to be under-represented here. Basically it is a "who knows?" sort of thing. No one comes back from the beyond to tell us (except in fiction, Hi Kris). I know, we are supposed to "have faith". But if we are a group that examines how we live our lives financially instead of going with the flow, we should expect to find people on here who also examine other aspects of their lives critically.
Wasn't the Protestant Reformation all about rejecting religious authority? It seems it only went part way - the Catholic Church and Papal Infallibility was rejected, but the bible (old collection of stories, plus then another collection of slightly more recent stories) was still accepted as authority. My view may be jaundiced, I grew up Anglican, and may be a little skeptical given the origins of the Anglican Church.
By the way, the only person I had ever heard of in the original list (Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins) is Richard Dawkins. His genetics work added to biologists' understanding of natural selection at the molecular level. New genetic understanding (i.e. junk DNA, male sterility genes in plants, etc.) was not a surprise based on his work.
And, biologists (and other scientists) do not have to automatically be atheists or agnostics - as Stephen Jay Gould mentioned in one of his books (Rock of Ages, I think, this is all from memory), one of the Popes said that science and religion are different domains, and what is valid in one (either one) is irrelevant to the other. Non-overlapping magisteria was the term - and one can accept or reject, but it is definitely an interesting way of looking at things.
Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
Atheism is by definition not a religion. It is the lack of a belief in any deities. Occasionally one does encounter atheists with behavior resembling that of religious people, but I can't speak for them; I can only speak to the total lack of justification for generalizing that behavior to all of us.
Babies are all born atheist. Some are later conditioned to become otherwise.
Note that I'm not arguing against the existence of whatever god you believe in, nor do we have to get into that right now. I'm not really into that stuff anyway. But the above are common misconceptions and misrepresentations that should be avoided, regardless of your beliefs or opinions.
Atheism is absolutely a religion. They have a Pope (Neil DeGrasse Tyson), Cardinals and other Clergy (Ricky Gervais, Richard Dawkins, etc.) Atheists believe in the mystical power of meta-physics which cannot be proven or disproven. They have religious texts written by their clergy (Books about anti-theism). They have churches where they meet (Facebook groups, internet forums, etc.) It's really funny to observe all this, when atheists are so adamant about not being religious.
I'm pretty sure this must be tough-in-check, because it's too idiotic for anyone to actually think it's true. The Holy See Neil DeGrasse Tyson, lol. That was pretty funny. I refuse to believe that anyone is dumb enough to think this is a reasonable argument.
Atheist means the person don't believe in supernatural beings. That's it. They have no other common features. Might as well have a group for people who don't believe in unicorns. Or the group I'm sure you belong to: people who don't believe in the existence of Thor/Jupiter/Zeus? I don't walk around every day thinking about by disbelief, or pondering the non-existence of gods. Or read tomes about the lack of supernatural beings.
Do you read books about, and go to meetings to discuss your disbelief in Thor? Thought not. It's the same for many (most?) atheists.
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You haven't heard of Neil DeGrasse Tyson?
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You haven't heard of Neil DeGrasse Tyson?
The odds must be astronomical!
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I know we are going OT, but . . .
Neil DeGrasse Tyson - he is an astro-physicist. I am a biologist/ecologist, Carl Sagan is as far as I go in that direction. Local astornomy is much more relevant - sun cycles and solar output and earth solar radiation are more relevant for me (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150709092955.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150709092955.htm))
Names - David Pimentel/David Suzuki/Ada Lovelace/Rachel Carson/Mary Anning/Mary and Louise Leakey/Alice Wilson/John Muir/John Smol/Stephen Jay Gould/ Niles Eldredge/Diane Fossey/Lynn Margulis/L. L. Langstroth/C. D. Walcott etc. etc.
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Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
I believe the relevant quote in this context is "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
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Atheists have yet to convince me that their religion has any value.
I believe the relevant quote in this context is "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
Yeah and? You mean you don't go to local meetings every Wednesday to talk about all the stamps you're not collecting? And compare your lack of stamp collections? Or read books about stamps people aren't collecting?
Come join us aphilatelyists!
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Yeah and? You mean you don't go to local meetings every Wednesday to talk about all the stamps you're not collecting? And compare your lack of stamp collections? Or read books about stamps people aren't collecting?
Come join us aphilatelyists!
Depends, are you strict orthodox aphilatelyists or reform?
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I love the fact that I am on a site where when Solomon is mentioned it is in the context of being a ridiculous spendy-pants.
Even in the conventional view of Solomon, a good portion of the lesson of his life is in his learning that the obsessive pursuit of massive wealth, sex and entertainment ("all the delights of the heart of man") is meaningless and unfulfilling. I still hang onto this one: "A man can do no better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work".
Runs own construction business for for 6 days then retires ...
God: the original Mustachian.
Though in full disclosure, I do have rather a crush on Tyson...and not in a pope-like way. Come to think, I also have a little crush on the Pope LOL! Maybe I'm just a slut! (We atheists are like that, of course. NO MORALS).
I liked Tyson's Cosmos reboot but I can't get into StarTalk... I'm not sure if it's style or content, it just hasn't clicked with me.
My wife and I both follow quite a bit of what Francis is doing: her because she's a lapsed Catholic from Argentina and he worked in her hometown for years, and me because I *love* that he has a science background, is trying to make positive changes on issues I care about, and has developed a penchant for pissing off anti-science corporate shills (like the titular TP wankers) in the U.S.
I joked after DW read me the introduction to the latest encyclical (Laudate Si) that apparently I'm now Catholic. (I think we're down to only two major sticking points, population control and the existence of deities... think we can work shit out? xD)
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I love the fact that I am on a site where when Solomon is mentioned it is in the context of being a ridiculous spendy-pants.
Even in the conventional view of Solomon, a good portion of the lesson of his life is in his learning that the obsessive pursuit of massive wealth, sex and entertainment ("all the delights of the heart of man") is meaningless and unfulfilling. I still hang onto this one: "A man can do no better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in his work".
Runs own construction business for for 6 days then retires ...
God: the original Mustachian.
Though in full disclosure, I do have rather a crush on Tyson...and not in a pope-like way. Come to think, I also have a little crush on the Pope LOL! Maybe I'm just a slut! (We atheists are like that, of course. NO MORALS).
I liked Tyson's Cosmos reboot but I can't get into StarTalk... I'm not sure if it's style or content, it just hasn't clicked with me.
My wife and I both follow quite a bit of what Francis is doing: her because she's a lapsed Catholic from Argentina and he worked in her hometown for years, and me because I *love* that he has a science background, is trying to make positive changes on issues I care about, and has developed a penchant for pissing off anti-science corporate shills (like the titular TP wankers) in the U.S.
I joked after DW read me the introduction to the latest encyclical (Laudate Si) that apparently I'm now Catholic. (I think we're down to only two major sticking points, population control and the existence of deities... think we can work shit out? xD)
LOL...I'm feeling similarly optimistic!