Author Topic: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"  (Read 5764 times)

Dicey

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A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!

I'd say that retirement has wildly exceeded my already huge expectations. I'll bet that's true for many folks here. So, yeah, retirement doesn't live up to my expectations, it totally exceeds it!

Yeah, it's click-bait, but Yahoo comments are closed, so I'll have to mock them here.

I'd post this in the Post-FIRE section, but I don't want shit like this to scare anyone off, so I'm putting it where it deserves to be: where it can be soundly mocked.


https://www.yahoo.com/money/retirement-doesnt-live-up-to-their-expectations-172359031.html

frugalecon

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2021, 06:09:47 PM »
I was just reflecting on how Pete hardly posts at all to the main blog these days. I doubt that is because his expectations aren’t being met. (Of course, it is true that he has made money hand over fist from the movement he popularized, but I don’t have any reason to think that is why he is living the good life.) That said, it would be interesting to find some way to do a poll of people who had pursued what they view to be FIRE, just to see what they had learned and what had or hadn’t been consistent with their expectations. For some, as you allude to, expectations may have been exceeded!

RetiredAt63

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2021, 07:34:56 PM »
I retired late (63) and retirement has more than lived up to expectations.  It hasn't turned out as planned, but that is fine.  The one generality I learned was that interests will probably change* once you decompress from working life.

*This hedging may be a Canadian thing.  I saw someplace totally different a Canadian say "Cautiously optimistic" and someone commented that only a Canadian would say that.  Sounded pretty normal to me.   ;-)

chrisgermany

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2021, 11:51:47 PM »
We retired at 62/55 and though (or because) DH had some health scares since, we have found no reason to be disappointed. Love every single day. We are able to afford the same life style  as before. Right now we miss travelling, but this will get better soon, we hope.

SwordGuy

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2021, 06:53:55 AM »
Our first year of retirement was decompression and getting a couple of houses renovated to rent out.   Had a bunch of medical issues crop up over the next year that kept us from doing a bunch of things that we wanted to for a year.  Then covid hit.

And retirement was STILL better than dealing with all of that PLUS having to deal with a job and needing a paycheck from it.

Looking forward to covid being under control by mid-summer so we can get things back to normal.

iris lily

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2021, 07:30:16 AM »
We retired at 60 and are  having tons of fun.

I wanted to retire at 59 so that I could say later “I retired in my 50s “because it IS a competition especially here on this board Hah Hah Hah Hah Hah Hah!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 08:04:20 AM by iris lily »

bbqbonelesswing

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2021, 08:08:03 AM »
I think a much more accurate article might be "Most workers find work doesn't live up to their expectations".

TheFrenchCat

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2021, 08:24:30 AM »
The article doesn't make it seem like people were necessarily disappointed in their retirement, just that their priorities changed.  As much as I want to travel during retirement, if that takes a backseat to spending time with my family and friends, I won't be disappointed.   

deborah

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2021, 09:16:08 AM »
I was never going to travel in retirement (or at least not internationally). I was already making money from a hobby, which I was going to expand into a business and become much better at it. I had also recently lost a close friend in another city to cancer, and in retirement I was going to be there for the people in my life the next time (which work really doesn’t allow).

Well, I failed.

The business never happened - partly because soon after retirement, another close person had cancer, and I was there for them, so I gave up on the business for good. I traveled to remote far flung places that I had never even dreamed I could visit. Then the pandemic happened, and no international visits can happen, so expectations changed again. Life is full of walks, visits to amazing places nearby, and great friendships that I never had while working.

Retired life has been fantastic, even if it hasn’t met expectations. It’s completely different to what I planned. And better - much better.

RainyDay

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2021, 10:31:39 AM »
I think a much more accurate article might be "Most workers find work doesn't live up to their expectations".

This is awesome.

Also, what DOES live up to expectations?  Having kids?  Climbing Everest? 

martyconlonontherun

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2021, 10:39:46 AM »
A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!

I'd say that retirement has wildly exceeded my already huge expectations. I'll bet that's true for many folks here. So, yeah, retirement doesn't live up to my expectations, it totally exceeds it!

Yeah, it's click-bait, but Yahoo comments are closed, so I'll have to mock them here.

I'd post this in the Post-FIRE section, but I don't want shit like this to scare anyone off, so I'm putting it where it deserves to be: where it can be soundly mocked.


https://www.yahoo.com/money/retirement-doesnt-live-up-to-their-expectations-172359031.html
Lol, I had literally took a screen shot, sent it to a friend that knows I'm obsessed with FIRE and said "Fuck Off"

I skimmed the article and dont think it is totally off-base. I know a lot of new retirees kind of lost.

That said, FIRE reduces the anxiety of the 3 main risks they point out: spending worries, forced retirement, and an identity crisis.
Spending: We are already adjusted for value-based spending and planned to be able to have enough
Forced Retirement: Umm we are the ones quitting and being asked to stay on
Identity Crisis: You are bouncing early enough to get a new identity instead of trying to create one at 65
1.

Metalcat

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2021, 11:25:08 AM »
I was forced into retirement tragically early in a career that I absolutely loved. I would give almost anything to be healthy enough to return to it.

Even then, even being too sick to do most of what I would want to do, I'm still really enjoying retirement because happy people tend to enjoy whatever they're doing and make the most of it.

ysette9

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FIRE has actually been pretty awful for me so far. But that isn’t a problem with FIRE, it is a problem with Covid being living in the US and being stuck at home for a year with little kids 24/7 when I had zero desire to be a stay-at-home-parent with no relief.

I hope that when everyone is vaccinated and schools are open and I can have some semblance of my own life again that I’ll get to experience real FIRE and enjoy life again.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2021, 01:02:31 PM »
LOL. Yeah retirement sucks. Early retirement is even worse. Really early retirement is so bad you might as well just continue on in the soul sucking job with the whiny co-workers, crazy boss, massive work load,  2 hour commute, with no time for family or friends or activities as you watch your body and mind die a slow death from sitting at a desk staring at a screen  for a few more decades. Fun times ;-).

OK so retirement (and especially early retirement) has totally exceeded all my wildest expectations too.

Thanks Spartana! I saw that article and earlier and rolled my eyes pretty hard. This is exactly the kind of snarky response I was hoping to find here.

A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!
Also this response, most appropriate for the depressing drivel in the article.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 01:04:30 PM by Alternatepriorities »

Metalcat

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2021, 06:17:29 PM »
LOL. Yeah retirement sucks. Early retirement is even worse. Really early retirement is so bad you might as well just continue on in the soul sucking job with the whiny co-workers, crazy boss, massive work load,  2 hour commute, with no time for family or friends or activities as you watch your body and mind die a slow death from sitting at a desk staring at a screen  for a few more decades. Fun times ;-).

OK so retirement (and especially early retirement) has totally exceeded all my wildest expectations too.

Thanks Spartana! I saw that article and earlier and rolled my eyes pretty hard. This is exactly the kind of snarky response I was hoping to find here.

A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!
Also this response, most appropriate for the depressing drivel in the article.
I was joking of course as I can see how many people would have expectations for their retirement - early, normal or late - and find it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Whether their expectations were too high or unrealistic or just "life" got in the way (covid, elderly parents, injury, whatever) or some other reason I do sympathize. But for me, when retirement is a choice you made rather then something forced upon you like @Malcat, it will usually be a good choice merely because of the day to day freedoms it allows you to have even if you aren't out conquering the world or doing ALL THE THINGS.

Even forced on me, it's pretty great.

Just because I can't do the job I love doesn't mean I can't find a million other awesome things to do with my newfound free time. No job is perfect, so I've deeply enjoyed not having to do the less fun parts.

You really can't go wrong having ample free time. It's pretty great.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2021, 07:41:11 PM »
I was joking of course as I can see how many people would have expectations for their retirement - early, normal or late - and find it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Whether their expectations were too high or unrealistic or just "life" got in the way (covid, elderly parents, injury, whatever) or some other reason I do sympathize. But for me, when retirement is a choice you made rather then something forced upon you like @Malcat, it will usually be a good choice merely because of the day to day freedoms it allows you to have even if you aren't out conquering the world or doing ALL THE THINGS.

Yeah, gaining "financial flexibly" a few years go was huge boost to quality of life. I've taken three long breaks already in the last 8 years and I am pretty excited that this one doesn't have to end...

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2021, 07:44:25 PM »
LOL. Yeah retirement sucks. Early retirement is even worse. Really early retirement is so bad you might as well just continue on in the soul sucking job with the whiny co-workers, crazy boss, massive work load,  2 hour commute, with no time for family or friends or activities as you watch your body and mind die a slow death from sitting at a desk staring at a screen  for a few more decades. Fun times ;-).

OK so retirement (and especially early retirement) has totally exceeded all my wildest expectations too.

Thanks Spartana! I saw that article and earlier and rolled my eyes pretty hard. This is exactly the kind of snarky response I was hoping to find here.

A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!
Also this response, most appropriate for the depressing drivel in the article.
I was joking of course as I can see how many people would have expectations for their retirement - early, normal or late - and find it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Whether their expectations were too high or unrealistic or just "life" got in the way (covid, elderly parents, injury, whatever) or some other reason I do sympathize. But for me, when retirement is a choice you made rather then something forced upon you like @Malcat, it will usually be a good choice merely because of the day to day freedoms it allows you to have even if you aren't out conquering the world or doing ALL THE THINGS.

Even forced on me, it's pretty great.

Just because I can't do the job I love doesn't mean I can't find a million other awesome things to do with my newfound free time. No job is perfect, so I've deeply enjoyed not having to do the less fun parts.

You really can't go wrong having ample free time. It's pretty great.

And yet, some people seem terrified of it. There are approximately 1.27 billion things I would do if I had all the free time of retirement, the ability to move around at least somewhat, and enough money to try a few things (nothing extravagant). I mean, my ideal retirement would include tons of travel, but even if I was for some reason totally restricted from that, I would have a dozen things off of the top of my head I could spend my time on that I would greatly enjoy. The whole concept bumfuzzles me, but I know people who, even if they wouldn't express it as such, seem terrified at the prospect of not having a full-time job (at least seem so by their actions).

norajean

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2021, 08:06:31 PM »
The major expectation of retirement is not having to get up and go to work in an office with a bunch of idiots sitting in meetings and whatnot. How anyone retired could not meet this expectation is a mystery to me. Even if you lay in bed and mope it beats that nonsense.

Metalcat

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2021, 05:27:44 AM »
LOL. Yeah retirement sucks. Early retirement is even worse. Really early retirement is so bad you might as well just continue on in the soul sucking job with the whiny co-workers, crazy boss, massive work load,  2 hour commute, with no time for family or friends or activities as you watch your body and mind die a slow death from sitting at a desk staring at a screen  for a few more decades. Fun times ;-).

OK so retirement (and especially early retirement) has totally exceeded all my wildest expectations too.

Thanks Spartana! I saw that article and earlier and rolled my eyes pretty hard. This is exactly the kind of snarky response I was hoping to find here.

A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!
Also this response, most appropriate for the depressing drivel in the article.
I was joking of course as I can see how many people would have expectations for their retirement - early, normal or late - and find it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Whether their expectations were too high or unrealistic or just "life" got in the way (covid, elderly parents, injury, whatever) or some other reason I do sympathize. But for me, when retirement is a choice you made rather then something forced upon you like @Malcat, it will usually be a good choice merely because of the day to day freedoms it allows you to have even if you aren't out conquering the world or doing ALL THE THINGS.

Even forced on me, it's pretty great.

Just because I can't do the job I love doesn't mean I can't find a million other awesome things to do with my newfound free time. No job is perfect, so I've deeply enjoyed not having to do the less fun parts.

You really can't go wrong having ample free time. It's pretty great.

And yet, some people seem terrified of it. There are approximately 1.27 billion things I would do if I had all the free time of retirement, the ability to move around at least somewhat, and enough money to try a few things (nothing extravagant). I mean, my ideal retirement would include tons of travel, but even if I was for some reason totally restricted from that, I would have a dozen things off of the top of my head I could spend my time on that I would greatly enjoy. The whole concept bumfuzzles me, but I know people who, even if they wouldn't express it as such, seem terrified at the prospect of not having a full-time job (at least seem so by their actions).

Oh, I understand very well *why* people feel that way, I just don't consider it an overly healthy phenomenon.

Just Joe

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2021, 10:15:42 AM »
And yet, some people seem terrified of it. There are approximately 1.27 billion things I would do if I had all the free time of retirement, the ability to move around at least somewhat, and enough money to try a few things (nothing extravagant). I mean, my ideal retirement would include tons of travel, but even if I was for some reason totally restricted from that, I would have a dozen things off of the top of my head I could spend my time on that I would greatly enjoy. The whole concept bumfuzzles me, but I know people who, even if they wouldn't express it as such, seem terrified at the prospect of not having a full-time job (at least seem so by their actions).

Washing the family car and going for a walk with our dog beats going to work. I'm taking a week off soon to just hang around the house and do what I want to do.

I have a good job that I mostly like with mostly good people but anything I want to do in my free time beats work.

Always. 

I don't want to work 'til DW and I are decrepit. We all know a few examples of how that plays out.

ysette9

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The major expectation of retirement is not having to get up and go to work in an office with a bunch of idiots sitting in meetings and whatnot. How anyone retired could not meet this expectation is a mystery to me. Even if you lay in bed and mope it beats that nonsense.
I think 90% of the time this is true. My experience is that working is a lot easier than taking care of little kids at home. If there are people who retire to care for an aging or sick relative I expect work also feels like an easier thing to do. I hope those situations are rare.

I expect that when I have copious free time things will be great. I’ve got my list all ready to go of things I want to pursue when I have the time.

Fishindude

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2021, 10:30:30 AM »
happy people tend to enjoy whatever they're doing and make the most of it.

This is the key.
I enjoyed my career and I'm also enjoying retirement.   Just two different phases of life.

mm1970

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2021, 12:49:25 PM »
The article doesn't make it seem like people were necessarily disappointed in their retirement, just that their priorities changed.  As much as I want to travel during retirement, if that takes a backseat to spending time with my family and friends, I won't be disappointed.

Also, they included people who were "unexpectedly" retired.  Meaning, laid off, etc., and forced to retire before they wanted to.

I had a coworker who was supremely active - distance runner and cyclist.  In his late 50's, he ended up will an illness that caused neuropathy (I don't know which one).  It gradually took the feeling in his toes, feet, hands.  He got sicker and went into more and more treatments.  He was bummed because he'd planned to work until "whenever" and then race across the US on his bicycle.  He knew THAT wasn't going to happen, so he was adjusting his retirement expectations downward.  Still working part time, planning a phased retirement until he and his wife were eligible for Medicare.

He died in his sleep at 63-64.

mm1970

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The major expectation of retirement is not having to get up and go to work in an office with a bunch of idiots sitting in meetings and whatnot. How anyone retired could not meet this expectation is a mystery to me. Even if you lay in bed and mope it beats that nonsense.
I think 90% of the time this is true. My experience is that working is a lot easier than taking care of little kids at home. If there are people who retire to care for an aging or sick relative I expect work also feels like an easier thing to do. I hope those situations are rare.

I expect that when I have copious free time things will be great. I’ve got my list all ready to go of things I want to pursue when I have the time.
I totally feel for you.  There's a reason why I'm not a SAHP.  You aren't really "retired". 

I still have a long list of things I want to do, even with 1.5 jobs and two kids schooling part or full time at home.  I am reminded each time I see the ingredients in the pantry for recipes I was going to make...

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2021, 07:31:30 PM »
I find it kind of amazing that many countries give a pension in the first place.

Like, if you want to retire, you really ought to save up for it yourself.

Metalcat

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2021, 08:03:06 PM »
I find it kind of amazing that many countries give a pension in the first place.

Like, if you want to retire, you really ought to save up for it yourself.

Because broke seniors are actually more expensive on the system. It's actually so that everyone else ends up spending *less* on them.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2021, 08:27:02 PM »
I accept that. But there are several wasteful designs of our Australian (and I suspect many other) pension system:

1. The pension rate is more than is necessary to sustain a frugal standard of living. Here it's $430 per week for a single age pensioner. You'd be better off giving a 100% rebate on all medical and utility bills and reducing the rate to $350 per week otherwise. That ensures all seniors get their basics funded but it gets rid of the other wastage.

2. The pension assets test doesn't account for the family home and it only partially accounts for retirement income from other sources. It'd be much cheaper to make seniors live off the proceeds of their family home BEFORE they can get government money.

ysette9

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I accept that. But there are several wasteful designs of our Australian (and I suspect many other) pension system:

1. The pension rate is more than is necessary to sustain a frugal standard of living. Here it's $430 per week for a single age pensioner. You'd be better off giving a 100% rebate on all medical and utility bills and reducing the rate to $350 per week otherwise. That ensures all seniors get their basics funded but it gets rid of the other wastage.

2. The pension assets test doesn't account for the family home and it only partially accounts for retirement income from other sources. It'd be much cheaper to make seniors live off the proceeds of their family home BEFORE they can get government money.
Where would seniors live if they live off the proceeds of their family home? I can understand the resistance to kicking seniors out of places they have been for a long time if they are still physically and mentally capable of living their. Perhaps a reverse mortgage or the government putting a lien on the property for future collection would be better?

FINate

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2021, 08:52:10 PM »
Quote
...seniors wrestling with spending worries, forced retirement, and an identity crisis.

Well there's your problem. I don't doubt for a moment that those who failed to prepare for retirement are having a rough time of it. I feel bad for them, and I'm not here to pick on them. But at the same time, I always wonder what they expected. Does anyone really think retirement just happens by accident? I shouldn't be surprised, but here I am.

ETA: Also, if you wait until you're almost 70 to retire then of course health and wellness will be the dominant concern. Of course I don't mean to minimize those experiencing unexpected ailments at a young age, you have my empathy.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 08:58:56 PM by FINate »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2021, 09:35:20 PM »
Yep a reverse mortgage scheme would work well.

Linea_Norway

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2021, 11:29:37 PM »
I find it kind of amazing that many countries give a pension in the first place.

Like, if you want to retire, you really ought to save up for it yourself.

Older retirees often say that they built the country and that they therefore deserve their retirement.

Apart from that I assume they paid taxes during their working career. Retirement is the time to get something back.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2021, 11:49:44 PM »
Except those like my parents and myself who have multi-million dollar portfolios don't get anything back, at all, in the form of government handouts. So the "time to get something back" argument doesn't work. I guess if everyone got the same $430 a week I wouldn't have a huge issue with it (it would be essentially a UBI) but that's not how it works.

So let's make it consistent: if you, at any stage, need a safety net, you get it. Unconditionally.

But if you already have 6 figure assets (a safety net) then you rely on it before wanting handouts.

That seems like a much fairer system to me.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2021, 04:40:59 AM »
LOL. Yeah retirement sucks. Early retirement is even worse. Really early retirement is so bad you might as well just continue on in the soul sucking job with the whiny co-workers, crazy boss, massive work load,  2 hour commute, with no time for family or friends or activities as you watch your body and mind die a slow death from sitting at a desk staring at a screen  for a few more decades. Fun times ;-).

OK so retirement (and especially early retirement) has totally exceeded all my wildest expectations too.

Thanks Spartana! I saw that article and earlier and rolled my eyes pretty hard. This is exactly the kind of snarky response I was hoping to find here.

A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!
Also this response, most appropriate for the depressing drivel in the article.
I was joking of course as I can see how many people would have expectations for their retirement - early, normal or late - and find it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Whether their expectations were too high or unrealistic or just "life" got in the way (covid, elderly parents, injury, whatever) or some other reason I do sympathize. But for me, when retirement is a choice you made rather then something forced upon you like @Malcat, it will usually be a good choice merely because of the day to day freedoms it allows you to have even if you aren't out conquering the world or doing ALL THE THINGS.

Even forced on me, it's pretty great.

Just because I can't do the job I love doesn't mean I can't find a million other awesome things to do with my newfound free time. No job is perfect, so I've deeply enjoyed not having to do the less fun parts.

You really can't go wrong having ample free time. It's pretty great.

And yet, some people seem terrified of it. There are approximately 1.27 billion things I would do if I had all the free time of retirement, the ability to move around at least somewhat, and enough money to try a few things (nothing extravagant). I mean, my ideal retirement would include tons of travel, but even if I was for some reason totally restricted from that, I would have a dozen things off of the top of my head I could spend my time on that I would greatly enjoy. The whole concept bumfuzzles me, but I know people who, even if they wouldn't express it as such, seem terrified at the prospect of not having a full-time job (at least seem so by their actions).

Oh, I understand very well *why* people feel that way, I just don't consider it an overly healthy phenomenon.

I agree that it's not healthy. I am curious as to your thoughts on why people feel that way. Fear of the unknown? The inertia of not wanting to change what they've done for years? Something else?

Metalcat

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2021, 05:19:09 AM »
LOL. Yeah retirement sucks. Early retirement is even worse. Really early retirement is so bad you might as well just continue on in the soul sucking job with the whiny co-workers, crazy boss, massive work load,  2 hour commute, with no time for family or friends or activities as you watch your body and mind die a slow death from sitting at a desk staring at a screen  for a few more decades. Fun times ;-).

OK so retirement (and especially early retirement) has totally exceeded all my wildest expectations too.

Thanks Spartana! I saw that article and earlier and rolled my eyes pretty hard. This is exactly the kind of snarky response I was hoping to find here.

A-ha-ha-ha! Fuck you, Yahoo!
Also this response, most appropriate for the depressing drivel in the article.
I was joking of course as I can see how many people would have expectations for their retirement - early, normal or late - and find it isn't what it is cracked up to be. Whether their expectations were too high or unrealistic or just "life" got in the way (covid, elderly parents, injury, whatever) or some other reason I do sympathize. But for me, when retirement is a choice you made rather then something forced upon you like @Malcat, it will usually be a good choice merely because of the day to day freedoms it allows you to have even if you aren't out conquering the world or doing ALL THE THINGS.

Even forced on me, it's pretty great.

Just because I can't do the job I love doesn't mean I can't find a million other awesome things to do with my newfound free time. No job is perfect, so I've deeply enjoyed not having to do the less fun parts.

You really can't go wrong having ample free time. It's pretty great.

And yet, some people seem terrified of it. There are approximately 1.27 billion things I would do if I had all the free time of retirement, the ability to move around at least somewhat, and enough money to try a few things (nothing extravagant). I mean, my ideal retirement would include tons of travel, but even if I was for some reason totally restricted from that, I would have a dozen things off of the top of my head I could spend my time on that I would greatly enjoy. The whole concept bumfuzzles me, but I know people who, even if they wouldn't express it as such, seem terrified at the prospect of not having a full-time job (at least seem so by their actions).

Oh, I understand very well *why* people feel that way, I just don't consider it an overly healthy phenomenon.

I agree that it's not healthy. I am curious as to your thoughts on why people feel that way. Fear of the unknown? The inertia of not wanting to change what they've done for years? Something else?

Those are all symptoms, not causes. The causes are as varied as people are, but the point is that a happy and healthy person simply doesn't dread a reality where they have more free time and more flexibility.

I miss my career every single day, but that doesn't mean I don't also really love my retirement. I loved my job, but I also love a lot of other things, and without my job, I have a lot more energy for them.

So even for me, having a very legitimate reason to mourn losing my career, I'm still having a fantastic time not working. I would go back to work in a second if I physically could, but that doesn't mean I'm unhappy with my retirement. I'm really, really enjoying it, because I generally really enjoy my life.

2sk22

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2021, 11:42:46 AM »
What a horrible click-baity article!

There just aren't enough hours in the day to do all of what I want to do in retirement :-)

EricEng

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2021, 11:51:50 AM »
I accept that. But there are several wasteful designs of our Australian (and I suspect many other) pension system:

1. The pension rate is more than is necessary to sustain a frugal standard of living. Here it's $430 per week for a single age pensioner. You'd be better off giving a 100% rebate on all medical and utility bills and reducing the rate to $350 per week otherwise. That ensures all seniors get their basics funded but it gets rid of the other wastage.

2. The pension assets test doesn't account for the family home and it only partially accounts for retirement income from other sources. It'd be much cheaper to make seniors live off the proceeds of their family home BEFORE they can get government money.
Australia sounds like it has an odd pension system.  Couple issues with your solution though.
1. You are encouraging waste of utilities.  Hello Hour Power Shower!  Turn off lights?  Never.  Turn down thermostat in winter to conserve?  Nah.  We tried to micromanage how people got to spend their aid money in the US and it mostly creates expensive bureaucracy overhead with little savings.

2. This just punishes those who saved while encouraging people to enter retirement with no assets left.  Again, US has issues with this related to medicaid, one of the only ones that checks assets.  We have have a thread in the main forum atm of someone discussing making themselves broke to qualify for medicaid.

Not disagreeing there are problems, but the solutions usually aren't easy either.

Imma

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2021, 02:18:31 PM »
Except those like my parents and myself who have multi-million dollar portfolios don't get anything back, at all, in the form of government handouts. So the "time to get something back" argument doesn't work. I guess if everyone got the same $430 a week I wouldn't have a huge issue with it (it would be essentially a UBI) but that's not how it works.

So let's make it consistent: if you, at any stage, need a safety net, you get it. Unconditionally.

But if you already have 6 figure assets (a safety net) then you rely on it before wanting handouts.

That seems like a much fairer system to me.

That's an odd system you have over there, I'm pretty sure that in most countries, government pensions are either in the form of a UBI (like in my country) or people get a certain amount depending on the years they worked. I have no objections against the UBI system in my country. When the current older generation was young, there was no such thing as company pensions or private retirement accounts. A paid off house and some savings under the matrass if you were lucky. My grandparents' grandparents sold their (tiny, cheap) house when they became too old to work and put up a bed in their daughter's living room, and lived there until they died. Only truly wealthy people were able to gain significant assets in post-tax investment accounts.

These days, all people under 66 pay a bit of tax and that money is sent directly to the 66 and overs. Everyone gets the same amount. It's a true basic income, you don't live in luxury but you'll survive. For people in my generation there are tons of options to build wealth so this provision may not really be necessary anymore half a century from now.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2021, 03:56:56 PM »
I accept that. But there are several wasteful designs of our Australian (and I suspect many other) pension system:

1. The pension rate is more than is necessary to sustain a frugal standard of living. Here it's $430 per week for a single age pensioner. You'd be better off giving a 100% rebate on all medical and utility bills and reducing the rate to $350 per week otherwise. That ensures all seniors get their basics funded but it gets rid of the other wastage.

2. The pension assets test doesn't account for the family home and it only partially accounts for retirement income from other sources. It'd be much cheaper to make seniors live off the proceeds of their family home BEFORE they can get government money.
Australia sounds like it has an odd pension system.  Couple issues with your solution though.
1. You are encouraging waste of utilities.  Hello Hour Power Shower!  Turn off lights?  Never.  Turn down thermostat in winter to conserve?  Nah.  We tried to micromanage how people got to spend their aid money in the US and it mostly creates expensive bureaucracy overhead with little savings.

2. This just punishes those who saved while encouraging people to enter retirement with no assets left.  Again, US has issues with this related to medicaid, one of the only ones that checks assets.  We have have a thread in the main forum atm of someone discussing making themselves broke to qualify for medicaid.

Not disagreeing there are problems, but the solutions usually aren't easy either.

The 'punishing people who saved' argument is there anyway considering that people who actually are prudent and have a few investment properties or a couple million in shares are barred from the pension anyway. So since we're already punishing financially successful people we may as well make it maximally fair and use the pension only as a safety net rather than as a lifestyle buffer. No one's going to deliberately waste assets for the sake of getting $430 a week.

mjr

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2021, 03:32:32 PM »
I'm not a fan of a system where old widows who have lived in a house for 40 years, the price of which has exploded due to the peculiarities of the Sydney and Melbourne markets, has no money other than the block she lives on, is told to sell it and "find somewhere cheaper" or give the house to a scuzzball, expensive reverse mortgage provider.

There's plenty of other waste in Australia's public expenditures and/or massive reforms in assets tests and taxation including the value of the PPOR before we need to begrudge the age pension to folks like that. As part of a root-and-branch reforms, this should be looked at, so that people can make their lfe-long decisions accordingly.  Some people whinging that the old lady in the nice house is living day to day on the OAP and "I'm subsidising their kids' inhertiance", nah.

By the way, it doesn't apply to my mother and I will never get the age pension.

Hula Hoop

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2021, 02:58:14 AM »
I'm not a fan of a system where old widows who have lived in a house for 40 years, the price of which has exploded due to the peculiarities of the Sydney and Melbourne markets, has no money other than the block she lives on, is told to sell it and "find somewhere cheaper" or give the house to a scuzzball, expensive reverse mortgage provider.

There's plenty of other waste in Australia's public expenditures and/or massive reforms in assets tests and taxation including the value of the PPOR before we need to begrudge the age pension to folks like that. As part of a root-and-branch reforms, this should be looked at, so that people can make their lfe-long decisions accordingly.  Some people whinging that the old lady in the nice house is living day to day on the OAP and "I'm subsidising their kids' inhertiance", nah.

By the way, it doesn't apply to my mother and I will never get the age pension.

I'm no expert but if they were to reform the Australian tax system maybe they should start with negative gearing?

I agree that an old person living in a house that they have lived life n their entire lives shouldn't be forced to sell before getting the pension.  Moving can be a major trauma for an older person and it's not their fault that property prices have ballooned.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2021, 04:17:49 AM »
So you want someone on a $2 million dollar paid off house to receive an age pension for doing nothing simply because burdening her by asking her to reverse mortgage her property is too much? Lucky her. Lucky her heirs.

Meanwhile I - a young Australian who already pays a 47% marginal rate and gets no stimulus payments, no pension - and whose net worth is less than $2 million - am told I have to pay more tax to support the first person.

But don't worry, when I retire I won't be getting any pension, cause I'm rich...unlike the first person.

Yeah, sounds fair.

deborah

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2021, 04:49:18 AM »
So you want someone on a $2 million dollar paid off house to receive an age pension for doing nothing simply because burdening her by asking her to reverse mortgage her property is too much? Lucky her. Lucky her heirs.

Meanwhile I - a young Australian who already pays a 47% marginal rate and gets no stimulus payments, no pension - and whose net worth is less than $2 million - am told I have to pay more tax to support the first person.

But don't worry, when I retire I won't be getting any pension, cause I'm rich...unlike the first person.

Yeah, sounds fair.
It’s interesting what ‘doing nothing’ involves. It is highly unlikely that she’s living in a $2 million home. She’s raised kids, earnt a pittance because of inequality of pay, spent eight years looking after her husband at home as he gradually gets more frail and dementia (most men die at home being looked after by the women of their lives, most women die in a nursing home by themselves) - and while she’s been doing this, she’s getting frail and elderly too.

Let’s say that her husband got too sick and elderly and frail to die at home. In this case, most of the money that they’ve been living on together has been eaten up in fees for nursing home care, so the only asset she has left once he dies is their home because she’s a protected person. If she does lose the home as part of his final illnesses, she’ll probably end up elderly and homeless and on the street.

It really does sound terribly fair that all this happens just because she cared, and was a woman.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2021, 05:29:40 AM »
The rich widow is the scenario that was put to me - not a scenario I made up. So your rejoinder applies to the former poster, not me. It could just as easily be a rich widower.

Quote
She’s raised kids, earnt a pittance because of inequality of pay, spent eight years looking after her husband at home as he gradually gets more frail and dementia (most men die at home being looked after by the women of their lives, most women die in a nursing home by themselves) - and while she’s been doing this, she’s getting frail and elderly too.
Other than the earning a pittance, this could just as easily be me when I'm older - except that on account of my earnings (which surely doesn't change whether I'm a hard worker or not, per the tone of your post), I won't ever get a cent.

Quote
If she does lose the home as part of his final illnesses, she’ll probably end up elderly and homeless and on the street.

This is a blatant straw man argument. No one is saying that the government pension should be withheld from everyone until he or she is homeless. I am saying the PPOR should be captured in the assets test. So if the reverse mortgage/proceeds of sale drop into the low 6 figures then she gets the pension. In the meantime after selling her $2m home (netting say $1.8m in proceeds) and before dropping into the $300k~ or so that's allowed under the asset test she has $1.5m worth of living expenses to chew through.

Incredibly disingenuous post.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 05:31:21 AM by Bloop Bloop Reloaded »

deborah

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2021, 02:31:18 PM »
No straw man. I seriously doubt you’re going to spend many years supporting your frail and sick spouse - the figures are against it as you’re male, so (on average) you will die 4 years earlier, and you married a woman 3 years younger, so you’re likely to die and become decrepit 7 years earlier.
https://theconversation.com/400-000-women-over-45-are-at-risk-of-homelessness-in-australia-142906
https://www.uow.edu.au/the-stand/2019/what-it-means-to-be-an-older-single-woman-today.php
It goes on. Several relatives have been in exactly the situation I outlined. It’s reality for many elderly women today.

Hula Hoop

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2021, 02:40:47 PM »
No straw man. I seriously doubt you’re going to spend many years supporting your frail and sick spouse - the figures are against it as you’re male, so (on average) you will die 4 years earlier, and you married a woman 3 years younger, so you’re likely to die and become decrepit 7 years earlier.
https://theconversation.com/400-000-women-over-45-are-at-risk-of-homelessness-in-australia-142906
https://www.uow.edu.au/the-stand/2019/what-it-means-to-be-an-older-single-woman-today.php
It goes on. Several relatives have been in exactly the situation I outlined. It’s reality for many elderly women today.

I've seen it happen too and I also come from a place where property has increased an incredible amount in value but that means absolutely nothing to elderly friends and family who have lived in their homes for 40-50 years.  And Bloop's idea that she (as statistically it's normally a she in this situation) who lives in this hypothetical A$2M house and gets the pension is or was "doing nothing" only stands if you consider traditionally women's care and house work which is unpaid and undervalued by society to be "doing nothing".  As @deborah  said, she has probably been caring for children and elderly family members most of her life.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 02:43:46 PM by Hula Hoop »

MoseyingAlong

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2021, 05:03:33 PM »
No straw man. I seriously doubt you’re going to spend many years supporting your frail and sick spouse - the figures are against it as you’re male, so (on average) you will die 4 years earlier, and you married a woman 3 years younger, so you’re likely to die and become decrepit 7 years earlier.
https://theconversation.com/400-000-women-over-45-are-at-risk-of-homelessness-in-australia-142906
https://www.uow.edu.au/the-stand/2019/what-it-means-to-be-an-older-single-woman-today.php
It goes on. Several relatives have been in exactly the situation I outlined. It’s reality for many elderly women today.

I've seen it happen too and I also come from a place where property has increased an incredible amount in value but that means absolutely nothing to elderly friends and family who have lived in their homes for 40-50 years.  And Bloop's idea that she (as statistically it's normally a she in this situation) who lives in this hypothetical A$2M house and gets the pension is or was "doing nothing" only stands if you consider traditionally women's care and house work which is unpaid and undervalued by society to be "doing nothing".  As @deborah  said, she has probably been caring for children and elderly family members most of her life.

What am I missing in this whole discussion?

I'm reading @Bloop Bloop Reloaded as saying this example of an elderly person should access the capital in her home and live off it. Seems very reasonable to me.
If the capital was in a regular investment account, would people be arguing that she should not access it and use it for living expenses?

Whether the growth is from real estate appreciation or stock appreciation, it's still appreciation. I don't understand the almost-fetish people have for real estate appreciation. It's still an asset that can be accessed thru a reverse mortgage without kicking someone out on the street. If we want to discuss better ways to access the value and provide protection, let's do that.


Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: "Most retirees find retirement doesn't live up to their expectations"
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2021, 08:13:54 PM »
If it makes Deborah happy I would be happy to do a system like this:

- Your PPOR is counted as part of your assets to see if you are eligible for the pension (right now everyone is entitled to a low-six figure sum of savings/shares/property, but an infinite amount of value can be tied up in the Principal Place of Residence and you still get the full pension)

- There is a government subsidised reverse mortgage scheme

- Women get a concessional age limit given they have a life expectancy that is longer. (This would never get voted through, but I have no objection to it)

Seems a very fair thing to me.

Otherwise we are just subsidising people to pass on quite expensive million dollar paid off homes to their heirs. Great for their heirs. Not great for society.

Not sure why if I retire at age 45 with $2m in assets I shouldn't get a pension but if someone saves up $2m in his or her PPOR he or she gets a full pension. I mean, let's say we both earned a similar amount to save up that $2m over our working lives. Where's the fairness there?