Author Topic: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"  (Read 49945 times)

mm1970

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #100 on: October 24, 2014, 11:36:07 AM »
People can make all the excuses they want for being overweight. Physiology is only a small part of it. What percentage of people were overweight/obese 40 years ago as opposed to today? Do genetics change that much in 40 years where 70% of the AMERICAN population suddenly has the "fat, malfunctioning thyroid gene"? I think not. I'm not "fat shaming" anybody. I just think it is selfish and unfair for the fit/healthy people to have to pay higher medical premiums as a result of all the health issues from the 70%(which, in most cases, is preventable).

I dropped 50 pounds about two years ago. Do I still eat junk food? Yes. Do I still drink alcohol? Yes. What's different? I started exercising, cut out the soda and cut back on the alcohol and junk food. Everything in moderation.
I think it's very complicated, and there are a lot of reasons why people are fat today compared to 40 years ago.  Which is why we can't just say "I did it, so can you!"  Like the exercise thing. I like to say "you can't exercise your way out of a bad diet".  Or, most people can, to a certain age.  For me, it was about 24.  I know people who could just "exercise more to eat whatever they want" until 30, 40, 50, 60, depending on genetics and joints (i.e., the runners could do it longer, but not everyone has the physical ability to run).

Look at WHAT we eat now - more processed foods, more junk food, more sugar, more soda.
Look at how little general movement we get.  I mean, have you seen how the Amish eat?  But they are physically active in their daily lives.
My dad was an auto mechanic, and worked on his feet most of the day.
My mom SAH and was a bank teller.  At home, she did housework, hung laundry to dry, gardened - was physically active (but still overweight except for the years from 38 to 42 when she started walking 3-6 miles a day and went on a 1000 cal a day diet).

Most people I know have sedentary jobs (myself included), and work longer hours than our parents did.  Less time to be physically active and less time to actually cook.
And of course, the prevalence of junk food and fast food has gone WAY up.  It's just so much easier to pick something up.
Add to that stress (economic and other) that affects your weight.

Plus now we are learning more about overweight - how your gut flora affects your health and body - more C-sections, less breastfeeding = more health issues.  Your body makes more fat cells as a child or teen - so more fat teens =  more fat adults.  A fat adult who was fat as a teen simply has more fat cells and won't be able to maintain the same weight as someone who has never been fat.  Plus, having been obese changes how your body processes food, particularly sugar and starch.  This is why someone who has never been overweight can eat a certain way, but someone who has been fat and lost weight cannot eat the same way (or they will gain weight back).

It's all pretty fascinating stuff.

We cannot boil it all down to one thing.  The answer is not going to be easy or simple.

My old company has new health insurance policies - you have to go through tests for BMI, blood sugar, weight, smoking, and blood pressure.  If you or your spouse fails 3/5, then your insurance premiums are higher.  I think this is actually a pretty good idea.  I wouldn't want it to be a single measure affecting your premiums, but several risk factors?  Why not.

mm1970

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #101 on: October 24, 2014, 11:56:30 AM »

Exactly. Everyone's got an excuse. "I eat because I'm sad." Yeah. "I drive a quarter mile in my SUV because my knees hurt." Yeah. Everyone's got an excuse and this thread is full of excuses. Learn to love good food and cut out soda, candy, garbage, and you'll be fine.

What if I don't drink soda, not even diet (never have), rarely eat candy (prob. ate some as a kid, don't care for it much - too sugary tasting), garbage (what exactly?). What is your recommendation for me for magical weight loss? No really, I would love to know.  I already exercise several times a week (yoga, zumba, strength, walking; recently started running).  I love vegetables, fruit, salad, lentils, beans, eggs, nuts.  Weakness for baked goods - don't keep those at home. I eat dark chocolate to keep the cravings at bay.  Drink a lot of water, don;t like beer, wine maybe a glass every few months. 
Now, I am not obese - keeping up my healthy habits keeps at about a size 12-14.  If I am militant about it and life is going smooth, I can even be size 8-10.  That is about as low as I have managed. I still look fat, at 5'1".  Other people who are larger, may not have the time and/or knowledge to put in the work required to do all this all the time.  That is not an excuse.  Time is finite.  I bet I could really get into great shape if I was not working and had all day to exercise and prep healthy meals.  How realistic is this for everyone?  I live with a naturally thin person, who eats as I do and never exercises.  I know his body is different.
[/quote]
This is very similar to me at 5'2".  I have to work very hard to stay here at a size 14 and slowly lose weight.  Seriously have to be perfect to lose even 1/2 lb a week.

My joints limit me unfortunately.  I cannot run, so I can't run "faster, harder".  I lift weights, but alone and at home, so there are limitations.  I walk, but I can't walk "longer, farther" due to time constraints. I  love Zumba, but that's how I sprained my knee in January, and it's still sensitive and easy to injure.  It's hard to explain to people who haven't come up against age or injury-related issues that it's not just "do more" and "go harder".

I switched from 1/2 marathons to sprint triathlons a few years ago, but was injured (again) running.  I went to PT and had to make adjustments (stop running). I had three tri friends say "it's good that you are listening to your body".  One of them (the 30 year old) you could tell was thinking "wimp".  One of them (my age) you could tell was thinking "OMG I hope I don't ever get injured".  One of them (my age) really meant "good for you for listening to your body".

Jags4186

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #102 on: October 24, 2014, 12:22:00 PM »
The complainypants is strong in this thread.

I recommend you purchase a book called "Where Did All the Fat Go" by Dr. Herzog--yes the head doctor from the Biggest loser.  One season of the biggest loser they had a contestant from every state--but only like 16 made it on the show.  The other 34 were left at home without the shows infrastructure to help them.  What do you know the big fat people who did the program, while working stressful jobs and raising families, were able to lose an obnoxious amount of weight!!!

Look I'm not saying its "easy" to lose weight.  I'm saying that people who actively put in the right effort should be able to lose weight.  Saying you do zoomba or square dancing while having dark chocolate every now and then to "curb the cravings" tells me you aren't serious about losing weight.  Worrying about "getting bulky"?  That's my favorite--absolute favorite--excuse from women.  I mean you seriously think that if you pick up a 5lb dumbbell you're going to look like Chyna?  Give me a break.

Kaspian

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #103 on: October 24, 2014, 12:57:18 PM »
I mean, have you seen how the Amish eat?  But they are physically active in their daily lives.

This is insanely true.  When the neighbouring community of Mennonites visit my city, those women are the sexiest, muscle-ridden lean-machines around.  ...And they eat potatoes & bread every day and make the best pies you'll ever eat. 
(I'm not being sexist there, but I don't check out the body shapes of the dudes quite as much as the women.  ...However, I have noted that the beer-gut is conspicuously missing on the guys.)

Kaspian

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #104 on: October 24, 2014, 01:03:36 PM »
So instead, there is this HIIT stuff that you really get your metabolism going in shorter time.  Except most of it is high impact, and my joints cannot take it. I've tried to do it on the bike, but it makes my knee ache.  I've tried to do sprints in the pool, but I simply can't get a fast turnover on my stroke without my shoulders hurting.  It's a joint thing - my joints simply cannot take the intensity and/or time required to get the "burn" that I did when I was younger.

Have you tried yoga?  Turn up the heat in the room and do 20-minutes of it a few times a week?  I'm 43, *hate* working out (except swimming), and it's the only thing I've found that helps my joints feel better while burning a few calories.  I use the "Yoga Zone" series--which are divided into 20-minute low-impact workouts.  It's weird for a guy to do yoga (where I live it is) but I'm 6'5", been through a few bad back issues, and this is the only thing which keeps it at bay.  ...Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do, right?

eyePod

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2014, 01:05:56 PM »
Fatties gonna fat. If they were the sort of people to take responsibility for their actions, they wouldn't be obeasts.
Weight loss is not a simple matter of knowing calories out must be greater than calories in.  Conceptually, it's simple, but that doesn't mean it's easy.


Sorry bud, but you hit the nail on the head here. Weight loss is simple. It definitely isn't easy. There's no question that on the large scale, especially at the obese end, it's a question of calories in/out. That's it. Hell, for most people who aren't high level athletes, that's enough.

And what's the difference between obese people and people who are in crazy debt? Generally, the latter are always looked down upon and ridiculed around here and no one bats an eye. Same premise for obesity. Either is overindulging in something (spending/eating) that's negatively impacting your health/well-being/future.

Again, saving money is simple, but it's not easy.

crispy

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2014, 03:34:38 PM »
This is a fascinating subject to me.  I have struggled with my weight all my life and spend much of it overweight.  I started doing Weight Watcher in 2011 and have lost 100+ pounds and have maintained the loss for a little over two years.  I do have an underactive thyroid and have been on medication for 10 years.  That makes losing weight harder, no question, although in my case, not impossible.

One thing that people seem to forget is that weight loss for many people is more of a mental game than a physical one.  I was never one to jump from one weight loss fad to the other, but I always had the desire to lose weight but not the motivation.  I also technically knew what to do (eat less, exercise more), but I didn't know how to do it. I started Weight Watchers and something about the program just really clicked with me.  The road wasn't easy and maintaining my loss is even harder.  It's a constant battle every day to maintain the status quo.  If people haven't struggled with their weight, they have no idea how hard a road it is for many people.  Yes, the math may be simple, but the journey isn't.

resy

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #107 on: October 24, 2014, 03:38:05 PM »
I note she can afford hair color, a tattoo, and a lip ring.

I noted the same things.

mm1970

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #108 on: October 24, 2014, 04:44:46 PM »
So instead, there is this HIIT stuff that you really get your metabolism going in shorter time.  Except most of it is high impact, and my joints cannot take it. I've tried to do it on the bike, but it makes my knee ache.  I've tried to do sprints in the pool, but I simply can't get a fast turnover on my stroke without my shoulders hurting.  It's a joint thing - my joints simply cannot take the intensity and/or time required to get the "burn" that I did when I was younger.

Have you tried yoga?  Turn up the heat in the room and do 20-minutes of it a few times a week?  I'm 43, *hate* working out (except swimming), and it's the only thing I've found that helps my joints feel better while burning a few calories.  I use the "Yoga Zone" series--which are divided into 20-minute low-impact workouts.  It's weird for a guy to do yoga (where I live it is) but I'm 6'5", been through a few bad back issues, and this is the only thing which keeps it at bay.  ...Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do, right?
I love Yoga.  Right now I am doing mostly swimming, biking, and a Yoga-LIKE workout called PiYo.  It's a lot of yoga moves, but faster.  All body weight exercises. And it really kicks my butt.  I have to credit it for a lot of my knee strengthening too...it's been much better since I've started doing it.  I have a couple of other yoga DVDs too.

I can certainly see the results in my biceps (though part of that is lifting a 25 lb toddler), and my coworker says she can see it in my butt.  (She's been doing it too.)  I'm a big fan of weight training, but I especially love body weight exercises for their ease and simplicity.  The only problem is the 2 year old - if he's awake, he either crawls under me or on top of me.

sheepstache

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #109 on: October 24, 2014, 04:59:15 PM »
Fatties gonna fat. If they were the sort of people to take responsibility for their actions, they wouldn't be obeasts.
Weight loss is not a simple matter of knowing calories out must be greater than calories in.  Conceptually, it's simple, but that doesn't mean it's easy.


Sorry bud, but you hit the nail on the head here. Weight loss is simple. It definitely isn't easy. There's no question that on the large scale, especially at the obese end, it's a question of calories in/out. That's it. Hell, for most people who aren't high level athletes, that's enough.

And what's the difference between obese people and people who are in crazy debt? Generally, the latter are always looked down upon and ridiculed around here and no one bats an eye. Same premise for obesity. Either is overindulging in something (spending/eating) that's negatively impacting your health/well-being/future.

Again, saving money is simple, but it's not easy.
Unless you're Einstein, nothing you're doing is changing what we know about physics. Eat less, weigh less. Nobody's that different.

Enjoy your excuses, folks. I'm out.

But that's just why it's NOT like budgeting. The math of budgets are the same for everyone.

The physics of light entering the eye is the same for everyone. That's math. But my vision is worse than most people's. That is not a matter of conscious choice or willpower. And it is despite there being a huge evolutionary pressure to have good vision.

Women maintain more subcutical fat than men. Some people keep fat on their belly, some keep it on their thighs. This has nothing to do with any particular diet or exercise regime. I have no idea why people insist on thinking this one particular bodily process is the same for everyone when there are so many obvious visible examples of differences.

My friend who is asthmatic and has bad knees is a phenomenal sprinter. I have more slow-twitch muscles so I'm a long-distance person. It would be complainypants to claim that I can't improve my sprint, but it would be true to say I have to train very hard to get something she has naturally and indeed that I might never get up to her level.

Two children can lead identical lives but one will be taller than the other.

I have zero clue why anyone thinks metabolic processes are magically different from every other bodily function.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 05:13:18 PM by sheepstache »

trailrated

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #110 on: October 24, 2014, 05:32:53 PM »
All very valid points, and made me rethink my stance on the issue a bit.

At the end of the day when this is viewed through the lense of mustachianism I think that rather than complaining about what we cannot control, we strive to work on what we can control. Can I eat healthier? Ok then do it. Can I exercise a little more? Ok then do it. It is all about improving yourself, not comparing yourself to those who are better and/or worse regardless of the factors that made it that way.

Bob W

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2014, 07:31:47 AM »

Exactly. Everyone's got an excuse. "I eat because I'm sad." Yeah. "I drive a quarter mile in my SUV because my knees hurt." Yeah. Everyone's got an excuse and this thread is full of excuses. Learn to love good food and cut out soda, candy, garbage, and you'll be fine.

What if I don't drink soda, not even diet (never have), rarely eat candy (prob. ate some as a kid, don't care for it much - too sugary tasting), garbage (what exactly?). What is your recommendation for me for magical weight loss? No really, I would love to know.  I already exercise several times a week (yoga, zumba, strength, walking; recently started running).  I love vegetables, fruit, salad, lentils, beans, eggs, nuts.  Weakness for baked goods - don't keep those at home. I eat dark chocolate to keep the cravings at bay.  Drink a lot of water, don;t like beer, wine maybe a glass every few months. 
Now, I am not obese - keeping up my healthy habits keeps at about a size 12-14.  If I am militant about it and life is going smooth, I can even be size 8-10.  That is about as low as I have managed. I still look fat, at 5'1".  Other people who are larger, may not have the time and/or knowledge to put in the work required to do all this all the time.  That is not an excuse.  Time is finite.  I bet I could really get into great shape if I was not working and had all day to exercise and prep healthy meals.  How realistic is this for everyone?  I live with a naturally thin person, who eats as I do and never exercises.  I know his body is different.
This is very similar to me at 5'2".  I have to work very hard to stay here at a size 14 and slowly lose weight.  Seriously have to be perfect to lose even 1/2 lb a week.

My joints limit me unfortunately.  I cannot run, so I can't run "faster, harder".  I lift weights, but alone and at home, so there are limitations.  I walk, but I can't walk "longer, farther" due to time constraints. I  love Zumba, but that's how I sprained my knee in January, and it's still sensitive and easy to injure.  It's hard to explain to people who haven't come up against age or injury-related issues that it's not just "do more" and "go harder".

I switched from 1/2 marathons to sprint triathlons a few years ago, but was injured (again) running.  I went to PT and had to make adjustments (stop running). I had three tri friends say "it's good that you are listening to your body".  One of them (the 30 year old) you could tell was thinking "wimp".  One of them (my age) you could tell was thinking "OMG I hope I don't ever get injured".  One of them (my age) really meant "good for you for listening to your body".
[/quote].              Try paleo for 30 days.  Your joints indicate a wheat issue.   Then slowly build up to a HIT swimming or biking program.

crazyworld

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2014, 09:22:49 AM »
People can make all the excuses they want for being overweight. Physiology is only a small part of it. What percentage of people were overweight/obese 40 years ago as opposed to today? Do genetics change that much in 40 years where 70% of the AMERICAN population suddenly has the "fat, malfunctioning thyroid gene"? I think not. I'm not "fat shaming" anybody. I just think it is selfish and unfair for the fit/healthy people to have to pay higher medical premiums as a result of all the health issues from the 70%(which, in most cases, is preventable).

I dropped 50 pounds about two years ago. Do I still eat junk food? Yes. Do I still drink alcohol? Yes. What's different? I started exercising, cut out the soda and cut back on the alcohol and junk food. Everything in moderation.
My grandma was, so was my dad, and still is, age 77, btw, on no prescription drugs at all. its your anecdotal evidence against mine.  Absolutely, eating junk and not exercising will make almost anyone fat. Bit it will make some people obese, some only modestly overweight. Some of us have to make a job of staying on top of our weight. That is the problem.  Life gets in the way. I am not obese, but that is because I have spent half of my waking hours working out, preparing food, reading up on nutrition and fitness. What a drain on time.

mm1970

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2014, 09:27:00 AM »

Exactly. Everyone's got an excuse. "I eat because I'm sad." Yeah. "I drive a quarter mile in my SUV because my knees hurt." Yeah. Everyone's got an excuse and this thread is full of excuses. Learn to love good food and cut out soda, candy, garbage, and you'll be fine.

What if I don't drink soda, not even diet (never have), rarely eat candy (prob. ate some as a kid, don't care for it much - too sugary tasting), garbage (what exactly?). What is your recommendation for me for magical weight loss? No really, I would love to know.  I already exercise several times a week (yoga, zumba, strength, walking; recently started running).  I love vegetables, fruit, salad, lentils, beans, eggs, nuts.  Weakness for baked goods - don't keep those at home. I eat dark chocolate to keep the cravings at bay.  Drink a lot of water, don;t like beer, wine maybe a glass every few months. 
Now, I am not obese - keeping up my healthy habits keeps at about a size 12-14.  If I am militant about it and life is going smooth, I can even be size 8-10.  That is about as low as I have managed. I still look fat, at 5'1".  Other people who are larger, may not have the time and/or knowledge to put in the work required to do all this all the time.  That is not an excuse.  Time is finite.  I bet I could really get into great shape if I was not working and had all day to exercise and prep healthy meals.  How realistic is this for everyone?  I live with a naturally thin person, who eats as I do and never exercises.  I know his body is different.
This is very similar to me at 5'2".  I have to work very hard to stay here at a size 14 and slowly lose weight.  Seriously have to be perfect to lose even 1/2 lb a week.

My joints limit me unfortunately.  I cannot run, so I can't run "faster, harder".  I lift weights, but alone and at home, so there are limitations.  I walk, but I can't walk "longer, farther" due to time constraints. I  love Zumba, but that's how I sprained my knee in January, and it's still sensitive and easy to injure.  It's hard to explain to people who haven't come up against age or injury-related issues that it's not just "do more" and "go harder".

I switched from 1/2 marathons to sprint triathlons a few years ago, but was injured (again) running.  I went to PT and had to make adjustments (stop running). I had three tri friends say "it's good that you are listening to your body".  One of them (the 30 year old) you could tell was thinking "wimp".  One of them (my age) you could tell was thinking "OMG I hope I don't ever get injured".  One of them (my age) really meant "good for you for listening to your body".
.              Try paleo for 30 days.  Your joints indicate a wheat issue.   Then slowly build up to a HIT swimming or biking program.
[/quote]
I have been pretty close to paleo for the last 30 days (more primal than paleo because I do eat dairy), with the caveat that I get a day off every week (generally a meal off).  It's the only type of eating that is allowing my weight to budge at all.  The hard thing for me to give up is beans though.  I love beans.

The joint issue isn't an overall "bad joints", it's injury.  The hip was injured from running.  Then I took 9 months off.  When I restarted, I decided to run in Vibrams.  This helped my hip a HUGE amount - no more pain, but I ended up with achilles tendonitis.  Then in January I got a little to aggressive in Zumba, hence the injured knee.  I've found that biking - I can do it, but I cannot do the fast speed without the pain in the still sensitive knee.  (I injured this same knee playing volleyball when I was 24, so 20 years ago, and it took 6 years before the pain was 100% gone - mostly it was sensitive to weather).  I still do HIIT in the pool most days that I swim, by sprinting one length and going slow one length, generally x5.

Unfortunately it's an age thing.  Not to say that I don't try - with all of the strengthening and yoga and weights over the last 9 months, I can now do regular burpees (without the jump at the end), vs. just stepping back one leg at a time.  Last week, I tried HIIT on the bike - too soon for the knee.  Every few weeks I try something that I used to do and hurt too much - if it doesn't hurt, I keep doing it.  If it does, I stop and figure I'll try again later.

Of course the 20 lb weight loss this year helps.

crazyworld

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2014, 09:54:15 AM »
The complainypants is strong in this thread.

I recommend you purchase a book called "Where Did All the Fat Go" by Dr. Herzog--yes the head doctor from the Biggest loser.  One season of the biggest loser they had a contestant from every state--but only like 16 made it on the show.  The other 34 were left at home without the shows infrastructure to help them.  What do you know the big fat people who did the program, while working stressful jobs and raising families, were able to lose an obnoxious amount of weight!!!

Look I'm not saying its "easy" to lose weight.  I'm saying that people who actively put in the right effort should be able to lose weight.  Saying you do zoomba or square dancing while having dark chocolate every now and then to "curb the cravings" tells me you aren't serious about losing weight.  Worrying about "getting bulky"?  That's my favorite--absolute favorite--excuse from women.  I mean you seriously think that if you pick up a 5lb dumbbell you're going to look like Chyna?  Give me a break.
You are assuming I speak from theory. I have been doiing some form of working out since I was a teenager. Keep saying it is excuses. And I will keep saying you don't know what you are talkin about. I do 10-12lbs weights. What is the point of doing 5lb weights except when you are just starting out? But it does bulk me up. Especially my butt and thighs (those would squats and lunges etc) When i stop, I look slimmer. Just because you don't find its true for you, I must be making excuses. Yes, I lose weight, if I spend way too much time on the process. Sometimes I don't have time. Compare to my husband, who has just written a book. Because he does not have to spend half his life figuring out just the mix of diet and exercise that will keep the pounds in check.

crazyworld

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #115 on: October 25, 2014, 09:59:14 AM »
Also, btw, yes just like the biggest loser, for a short while I can lose a lot of weight (again, I am not quite that huge). The problem is maintaining, while desiring to do something else with your life, then just think about diet and exercise. I do enough to keep the weight in check. But no doubt, at 5'1" and a size L, I am fat and look it.

crazyworld

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #116 on: October 25, 2014, 10:03:15 AM »
People can make all the excuses they want for being overweight. Physiology is only a small part of it. What percentage of people were overweight/obese 40 years ago as opposed to today? Do genetics change that much in 40 years where 70% of the AMERICAN population suddenly has the "fat, malfunctioning thyroid gene"? I think not. I'm not "fat shaming" anybody. I just think it is selfish and unfair for the fit/healthy people to have to pay higher medical premiums as a result of all the health issues from the 70%(which, in most cases, is preventable).

I dropped 50 pounds about two years ago. Do I still eat junk food? Yes. Do I still drink alcohol? Yes. What's different? I started exercising, cut out the soda and cut back on the alcohol and junk food. Everything in moderation.
So you are allowed to eat junk food and drink alcohol ("in moderation"), which may do things to your health as you grow older, but just because I am overweight, I am increasing your premiums. Fyi, i have no heath issues at all, whatsoever. Barely see a doctor. Your premiums are not due to my weight, thats for sure. So lets take that out of the discussion.

daymare

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #117 on: October 25, 2014, 04:04:17 PM »
Interesting discussion.  I think it's easy for people who have been naturally thin their whole lives (I'm in this group) to take that fact, compounded with the oft-repeated 'it's a simple matter or calories in vs out', to conclude that those who are overweight must be so due to overeating/laziness.  Which - sometimes, that is certainly the case (or a contributing factor), but I so don't buy that argument as the whole, simple, reason that some people are overweight.

It's things like having a really close friend who is overweight, eating most meals together in college, and having her remain 50 pounds heavier (and 5+ inches shorter) than me through all that.  Or the fact that I have personally been pretty much the same weight for my adult life.  Sure, now that I'm running more (training for half marathon), I can see more muscle, whereas in my sedentary winter months I get a lot softer in the middle.  But I still wear the same clothes, my size doesn't vary much at all, even when my exercise/eating habits do.  So I personally find the idea that people have certain 'set' weights, where they can easily maintain and it's less easy to gain or lose, pretty compelling from personal evidence.  And I really think that having sympathy and not approaching this topic from a place of judgement is key.

mm1970

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #118 on: October 25, 2014, 04:14:37 PM »
Also, btw, yes just like the biggest loser, for a short while I can lose a lot of weight (again, I am not quite that huge). The problem is maintaining, while desiring to do something else with your life, then just think about diet and exercise. I do enough to keep the weight in check. But no doubt, at 5'1" and a size L, I am fat and look it.
It's kind of exhausting isn't it?  When I lost weight the first time (early 30's), I took it as a part time job.  For 3 months I didn't eat out once, or drink a single alcoholic drink.

After my first baby, I cut my work hours by 10 hrs/ wk, and used those hours to weigh and measure my food and do weight watchers (again).  20 lbs in 3 months.

This time, even with regular exercise and weighing and measuring, it's taking a lot longer (20 lbs in 10 months).  Wow, it's seriously hours!  40 hours of work, plus kids, kid's homework, toddler, toddler not sleeping, kids being sick.

I spend hours on the weekend and on weeknights grocery shopping, washing and chopping vegetables, weighing food, measuring, putting into my fitness pal, prepacking lunches, washing lettuce, hard boiling eggs, planning dinners around the CSA (building that "recipe" and adding into my fitness pal).

Sometimes I finally get the kids to bed at 9, then spend my 15 minutes of free time washing veggies for the next night's dinner.  Then pass out.

It really *does* take that much work.  I get one day off a week.  That was yesterday this week. So today, it's the school festival.  Lots of homemade Mexican food for sale and cupcakes!  I'll be taking my apple as a snack, and some beef jerky.  My husband and kids will buy dinner there, but when we get home I'll bake my chicken breast and steam my green beans.

And tomorrow's potluck - I'll bake scones, or make something else, but really I'll just eat before I go and drink water and chat.

It takes (and always has), about 10-12 hours a week of solid work for me to lose weight.  FYI, that doesn't include actual exercise.  That's extra.

4alpacas

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #119 on: October 25, 2014, 07:17:02 PM »

I spend hours on the weekend and on weeknights grocery shopping, washing and chopping vegetables, weighing food, measuring, putting into my fitness pal, prepacking lunches, washing lettuce, hard boiling eggs, planning dinners around the CSA (building that "recipe" and adding into my fitness pal).


I'm not in weight loss mode, but your list sees normal to me.  I do get my groceries delivered and focus more on bulk cooking.  But none of the things you've listed seem all that time consuming to me.  What do you do when you're not in "weight loss" mode?

boarder42

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #120 on: October 25, 2014, 10:15:47 PM »
There isn't a weight loss mode if you have this mindset you'll constantly struggle we dont go into saving mode on this site. Quit complaining quit making excuses and do something to change your life or just like one of the first posters said

Become okay with the phrase

Fatties gonna fat.

Same as

Spenders gonna spend

boarder42

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #121 on: October 25, 2014, 10:19:43 PM »
Also fruit is full of sugar you may be overeating it. So to all those saying you're eating fruit you may be overeating it fruit to vegetable should be at 1-11 at a minimum  you can cut fruit out all together and you'll be better off than eating it most likely.

The I did it so can you is something all the big people here are opposed to but the fact is it can be done you're just choosing to not try

sarah8001

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #122 on: October 26, 2014, 03:07:26 AM »
I wish all you sexually active people would just stop it. I find the fact that you're sexually active disgusting. It's been linked to all kinds of nasty health problems, and causes insurance premiums to skyrocket. All these people are sexually active, then they get STIs and have babies and I'm supposed to pay for it? And the worse is men with their erectile disfunction pills and viagra. I can't believe they have the nerve to see doctors about such a stupid problem that is so easy to fix! JUST STOP HAVING SEX AND MASTURBATING! Whenever you get horny, just say no. Just get more willpower. Also, having sex is bad for the environment, because it causes pregnancy, and we all know if humans just stopped reproducing, it would take a huge load off the Earth in the next 80 years. Stop making excuses for why you have sex. There are no good excuses to have sex. Who cares if it feels good, or is comforting, or enjoyable. I'm tired of paying for it.
When you say things like "fatties gonna fat" it is just as ridiculous and just as effective as the above tirade (except sex actually does cause pregnancy, and obesity is only LINKED to many diseases, many studies are designed to prove that obesity causes disease, not to examine if it actually does). I'm obese, and I want that to change, but it's no easier for me than giving up sex and masturbation is to you. Actually a better example would be to give up all tactile and vocal communication with all other human beings, since I struggle with comfort eating. Not everybody is the same. I can read 1000+ words a day, and have since I was 9, but my younger brother was 14 before he learned to spell "Sarah." He had a learning disorder. It wasn't that he was lazy, or needed more willpower, the things that were easy for me were hard for him. It surely didn't help when I laughed at him, and teased him mercillessly about not being able to read. I was being a bully, and lacking in compassion. Check yourself.

Albert

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #123 on: October 26, 2014, 05:53:47 AM »
This could be discussed ad nauseam, but the truth is that people (particularly those under 50) where on average fitter and leaner 30 years ago. There is absolutely no reason to think that in such a short time span anything changed genetically or people became more depressed and unhappy.

Where I live it's still fairly rare to see young obese people (overweight yes). At work (ca 300 people) I'd estimate ca 1% obese and ca 20% noticeably overweight. Our genetics are identical to that in places most posters on this board live.

mm1970

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #124 on: October 26, 2014, 08:59:05 AM »

I spend hours on the weekend and on weeknights grocery shopping, washing and chopping vegetables, weighing food, measuring, putting into my fitness pal, prepacking lunches, washing lettuce, hard boiling eggs, planning dinners around the CSA (building that "recipe" and adding into my fitness pal).


I'm not in weight loss mode, but your list sees normal to me.  I do get my groceries delivered and focus more on bulk cooking.  But none of the things you've listed seem all that time consuming to me.  What do you do when you're not in "weight loss" mode?
I don't count calories and weigh and measure everything.

I can easily eat 1500-2000 calories a day, feel satisfied, and maintain my weight.

In order to keep to 1200-1500 (closer to 1200-1300 in weight loss mode), I have to count calories, weigh and measure everything, and prep a lot more vegetables.

Maintenance mode I'd eat probably 3 cups of veggies a day.
Weight loss, I need more like 4-6 cups (2x as much!) to fill me up on fewer calories.  That's pretty much double the prep time.

Example: this week my husband was out of town. I  did all of my prep work on the weekend.  I didn't exercise much (no time to get away, and not getting enough sleep).  My calorie level was more like 1500 a day this week because I didn't have the time to do my normal counting.  And I didn't lose any weight.

Luck12

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #125 on: October 26, 2014, 09:05:40 AM »
There isn't a weight loss mode if you have this mindset you'll constantly struggle we dont go into saving mode on this site. Quit complaining quit making excuses and do something to change your life or just like one of the first posters said

Become okay with the phrase

Fatties gonna fat.

Same as

Spenders gonna spend

You are not one for nuance, are you?  I can guess what your politics are from that lack of nuance, black and white, arrogant and asshole way of thinking.   As others have said there are many variables affecting weight.  Nobody is saying you shouldn't try hard and do the "right" things to lose weight.    Being a naturally thin person and seeing too many thin people eat terribly and never exercise makes this obvious.     

justajane

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2014, 10:35:22 AM »
I get annoyed how doctors don't seem to account for the natural progression of women's bodies. My mom has a friend who is wonderfully shaped for a 70+ year old and quite healthy; yet at her last appointment, her GP told her she needed to lose at least 10 pounds. I can't imagine she wears more than a size 12 and is quite tall.  No one looking at her would ever think that she needed to lose weight. I just don't understand why he said that. Is it because he was looking at an arbitrary chart?

This is anecdotal, but someone I know who has worked at nursing homes for a few decades said that the residents who enter with a little bit of padding (not excessive amounts, but some) fare much better in their twilight years. They definitely live longer.

I'm pushing forty and am realizing that I have to adjust down what I eat. Based on charts, I am probably 40 pounds overweight for my "frame", but even when I was in my early 20s,  very active and slim, I weighed about 8-10 pounds more than what the charts recommended. The reason? I am big breasted. They never seem to account for that. I know the 40 pound number is unrealistic for me, and frankly I love food too much to weigh my "optimum" weight. My goal is to be 20 pounds less than I am now.

In essence, people need to write their own rules - within reason. I have no interest in looking good in a bikini or looking like someone on the pages of US Weekly. Those people are probably underweight and live far away from my Midwestern world. I don't even care if I go to the doctor and he tells me I need to lose weight. What I want is to look in the mirror and be mostly happy with what I see. For me, that would be 20 pounds less. I'm okay with this number, considering I had three kids in my thirties and dealt with (and am still dealing with) extreme sleep deprivation three times. Yeah, yeah, excuses, excuses. But one person's excuses can be another person's explanations.

We could all stand to have a little more empathy, even when we don't understand. This includes financial trouble as well. I just spent two days in the hospital for an infection, and my financial defenses have been down this week. I have spent money on things that I would NEVER spend on prior to this. I've overpaid for things knowingly. But that's because I am in a lot of physical pain and still recovering. Our budget can absorb these indiscretions quite easily, but I am grateful for the sympathy and perspective this trial has provided me. Just because being frugal has been easy for me doesn't mean it is easy for everyone. The same applies to weight.


Gin1984

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2014, 10:58:14 AM »
I get annoyed how doctors don't seem to account for the natural progression of women's bodies. My mom has a friend who is wonderfully shaped for a 70+ year old and quite healthy; yet at her last appointment, her GP told her she needed to lose at least 10 pounds. I can't imagine she wears more than a size 12 and is quite tall.  No one looking at her would ever think that she needed to lose weight. I just don't understand why he said that. Is it because he was looking at an arbitrary chart?

This is anecdotal, but someone I know who has worked at nursing homes for a few decades said that the residents who enter with a little bit of padding (not excessive amounts, but some) fare much better in their twilight years. They definitely live longer.

I'm pushing forty and am realizing that I have to adjust down what I eat. Based on charts, I am probably 40 pounds overweight for my "frame", but even when I was in my early 20s,  very active and slim, I weighed about 8-10 pounds more than what the charts recommended. The reason? I am big breasted. They never seem to account for that. I know the 40 pound number is unrealistic for me, and frankly I love food too much to weigh my "optimum" weight. My goal is to be 20 pounds less than I am now.

In essence, people need to write their own rules - within reason. I have no interest in looking good in a bikini or looking like someone on the pages of US Weekly. Those people are probably underweight and live far away from my Midwestern world. I don't even care if I go to the doctor and he tells me I need to lose weight. What I want is to look in the mirror and be mostly happy with what I see. For me, that would be 20 pounds less. I'm okay with this number, considering I had three kids in my thirties and dealt with (and am still dealing with) extreme sleep deprivation three times. Yeah, yeah, excuses, excuses. But one person's excuses can be another person's explanations.

We could all stand to have a little more empathy, even when we don't understand. This includes financial trouble as well. I just spent two days in the hospital for an infection, and my financial defenses have been down this week. I have spent money on things that I would NEVER spend on prior to this. I've overpaid for things knowingly. But that's because I am in a lot of physical pain and still recovering. Our budget can absorb these indiscretions quite easily, but I am grateful for the sympathy and perspective this trial has provided me. Just because being frugal has been easy for me doesn't mean it is easy for everyone. The same applies to weight.
There is research that agrees with you.  My postdoc does research on elderly and exercise and showed me a couple papers.  Not obese but slightly "overweight" has a correlation with longer life and health span.

Abe

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2014, 01:01:11 PM »
They are likely relying on the Body-Mass-Index chart, which is known to be inaccurate for elderly and young due to differences in body fat composition (normally increased in these age groups). This emphasizes my prior point that weight by itself is not a useful measure of health except at the obvious extremes (severely underweight or severely overweight). An another point to note is that in the elderly, low or low-normal BMI is more likely due to generalized malnourishment rather than being especially healthy. This is due to multiple factors, including limited spending on food, poorer appetite due to chronic illness or difficulty eating due to undiagnosed swallowing disorders from dementia or strokes.

That being said, it has been shown that people grossly underestimate the amount of fat they are carrying when saying "I want to lose __ pounds to look like ___ ", because a significant amount of fat is carried within the abdominal cavity. This is especially true for adult males, but also applies to adult women who carry a significant abdominal subcutaneous fat.  I'll use myself as an example - 2 years ago I weighed 40 pounds more than now (195 vs 155), but my pant size and abdominal girth has only decreased about 2 inches. This indicates I carried a substantial amount of intra-abdominal fat and subcutaneous fat dispersed places other than my abdomen.

4alpacas

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2014, 01:47:43 PM »

I spend hours on the weekend and on weeknights grocery shopping, washing and chopping vegetables, weighing food, measuring, putting into my fitness pal, prepacking lunches, washing lettuce, hard boiling eggs, planning dinners around the CSA (building that "recipe" and adding into my fitness pal).


I'm not in weight loss mode, but your list sees normal to me.  I do get my groceries delivered and focus more on bulk cooking.  But none of the things you've listed seem all that time consuming to me.  What do you do when you're not in "weight loss" mode?
I don't count calories and weigh and measure everything.

I can easily eat 1500-2000 calories a day, feel satisfied, and maintain my weight.

In order to keep to 1200-1500 (closer to 1200-1300 in weight loss mode), I have to count calories, weigh and measure everything, and prep a lot more vegetables.

Maintenance mode I'd eat probably 3 cups of veggies a day.
Weight loss, I need more like 4-6 cups (2x as much!) to fill me up on fewer calories.  That's pretty much double the prep time.

Example: this week my husband was out of town. I  did all of my prep work on the weekend.  I didn't exercise much (no time to get away, and not getting enough sleep).  My calorie level was more like 1500 a day this week because I didn't have the time to do my normal counting.  And I didn't lose any weight.
I'm probably in the 4c/day (just a guesstimate), but I don't feel like it's a huge time commitment.  I buy a lot of prewashed spinach (for salads and smoothies), baby carrots (with hummus), and frozen vegetables (I toss frozen peas in everything). 

Maybe you could try switching to 4-6c/day permanently, but work toward using less time intensive prepping vegetables. 

I also avoid going out to eat (great for my budget and waist).  I find I spend much less time eating and prepping my food if I do it in bulk and freeze single servings (for quick lunches) and dinner portions (for two).  Some of my family members(the majority) struggle with weight issues, so I'm cautious of falling into bad habits. 

Bob W

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2014, 05:24:25 PM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

GetItRight

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #131 on: October 27, 2014, 06:07:30 AM »
FTFY...

Quote
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food for any citizen.   None.

GuitarStv

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #132 on: October 27, 2014, 06:20:08 AM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

Fortunately the government in question doesn't force any citizen to provide food with the point of a gun.

infogoon

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #133 on: October 27, 2014, 08:35:42 AM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

Fortunately the government in question doesn't force any citizen to provide food with the point of a gun.

*Insert specious bullshit Libertarian argument about taxation being armed robbery here*

Bob W

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #134 on: October 27, 2014, 08:50:12 AM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

Fortunately the government in question doesn't force any citizen to provide food with the point of a gun.

*Insert specious bullshit Libertarian argument about taxation being armed robbery here*

Not sure which country you live in but in my country the tax collectors carry guns and the power to take the property of those who do not wish to pay to feed other people surf and turf.

In case posters here don't realize,  the SNAP program funding in the US can be used to buy virtually any food from prime rib to caviar.   It is not a temporary beans and rice program.   The program can now be used at many restaurants as well. 

I cracked up last year at the boat dock when I found a fisherman had left behind his shrimp bait only to notice that the receipt was paid for with and EBT card.   

The SNAP program has lots of lobbyist for the ag industry supporting it.   What they lobby for is to take the money you earn away from you to support their industry. 

So yeah,  if you want to voluntarily pay for someone else to eat lobster while you yourself are eating beans then go for it.  Don't expect me to happy being forced to do the same. 

I can never figure out why some posters on this site don't realize that government taxation is enforced with force and power?? 

justajane

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #135 on: October 27, 2014, 09:01:47 AM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

Fortunately the government in question doesn't force any citizen to provide food with the point of a gun.

*Insert specious bullshit Libertarian argument about taxation being armed robbery here*

Not sure which country you live in but in my country the tax collectors carry guns and the power to take the property of those who do not wish to pay to feed other people surf and turf.

In case posters here don't realize,  the SNAP program funding in the US can be used to buy virtually any food from prime rib to caviar.   It is not a temporary beans and rice program.   The program can now be used at many restaurants as well. 

I cracked up last year at the boat dock when I found a fisherman had left behind his shrimp bait only to notice that the receipt was paid for with and EBT card.   

The SNAP program has lots of lobbyist for the ag industry supporting it.   What they lobby for is to take the money you earn away from you to support their industry. 

So yeah,  if you want to voluntarily pay for someone else to eat lobster while you yourself are eating beans then go for it.  Don't expect me to happy being forced to do the same. 

I can never figure out why some posters on this site don't realize that government taxation is enforced with force and power??

Bob - your obsession with food stamps and seafood has shown up on other threads as well. Do you have any actual non-anecdotal evidence that lobster is being purchased en masse by SNAP recipients?

Tai

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #136 on: October 27, 2014, 09:08:50 AM »
I have this hilarious image in my head now of a bunch of IRS accountants in their offices armed to the teeth. I guess that would audits doubly scary? Oops, you made a error in your calculations, boom!

GuitarStv

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #137 on: October 27, 2014, 09:48:18 AM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

Fortunately the government in question doesn't force any citizen to provide food with the point of a gun.

*Insert specious bullshit Libertarian argument about taxation being armed robbery here*

Not sure which country you live in but in my country the tax collectors carry guns and the power to take the property of those who do not wish to pay to feed other people surf and turf.

*edited to remove unrelated rant*

I can never figure out why some posters on this site don't realize that government taxation is enforced with force and power??

If you go to a department store, pick something up, and then try to leave without paying for it you will likely run afoul of mall security.  Why do you believe that it should be possible to live in a country, benefit from the many resources made available to you, and then get away without paying your bill?  Tax evasion is theft.  Trying to justify your theft by playing for sympathy because the government will prosecute you for your crimes (in the same way that a shop owner would prosecute you for stealing from them) is a bit silly.

Bob W

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #138 on: October 27, 2014, 09:51:08 AM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

Fortunately the government in question doesn't force any citizen to provide food with the point of a gun.

*Insert specious bullshit Libertarian argument about taxation being armed robbery here*

Not sure which country you live in but in my country the tax collectors carry guns and the power to take the property of those who do not wish to pay to feed other people surf and turf.

In case posters here don't realize,  the SNAP program funding in the US can be used to buy virtually any food from prime rib to caviar.   It is not a temporary beans and rice program.   The program can now be used at many restaurants as well. 

I cracked up last year at the boat dock when I found a fisherman had left behind his shrimp bait only to notice that the receipt was paid for with and EBT card.   

The SNAP program has lots of lobbyist for the ag industry supporting it.   What they lobby for is to take the money you earn away from you to support their industry. 

So yeah,  if you want to voluntarily pay for someone else to eat lobster while you yourself are eating beans then go for it.  Don't expect me to happy being forced to do the same. 

I can never figure out why some posters on this site don't realize that government taxation is enforced with force and power??

Bob - your obsession with food stamps and seafood has shown up on other threads as well. Do you have any actual non-anecdotal evidence that lobster is being purchased en masse by SNAP recipients?

Not really obsessed with it.  I happen to work in the social services field and see the food spending of SNAP recipients on a daily basis.   Here is what I saw just last Friday.   One gentleman, who I love,  had an empty Pizza Hut pizza box and two boxes of wings on his living room floor. One of my favorite clients who always runs out of food (and I often supply it out of my own pocket) purchased $5 worth of donuts at the convenience store.  (both of these folks live completely off the government)  Then my wife remarked that an obese woman in front of her at a C store purchased a large bag of chips using an EBT card.  The woman also had a 120 oz soda in hand.

I'm not a libertarian fanatic but feel that many forum readers are mislead with regard to food stamps.

For reference,  I ran a WIC (Women's Infants and Children) program for 5 years.    I found it to be a very well thought out program.  It provided supplemental food and formula.  The food was limited to about 15 very specific basic things such as peanut butter, milk, cereal.   I would deem this a good program.

By contrast the Ag business run SNAP program has opened up the door as wide as possible and makes virtually any food purchased at any price available.  Yes, including lobster.  I would deem this a bad and destructive program.

As mustachians we should all be writing our congress reps and imploring them to restrict the SNAP program to some limited and basic foods ---think beans and rice.  And it should be a lending program in that the government should lend the money to people when in need with the expectation that it be paid back. 

I'm old enough to remember when government cheese and canned meat was what a person could expect. (1980s)  At that time there was probably less than 5 million people on food stamps and actual stamps were used.   Today, there are close to 50 million people on the SNAP program.  And a majority of school aged children also receive free or reduced lunches at school.   At our district it is 80%. 

It is not a war on poverty or hunger it is a way for the democrats to buy votes and for big ag to obtain government subsidies.

So you don't think I'm some type of Godless uncaring person I do personally give money to those in need.   I just don't appreciate being taxed to support peoples Pizza Hut and Potato chip habits.


NumberCruncher

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #139 on: October 27, 2014, 10:13:45 AM »
As mustachians we should all be writing our congress reps and imploring them to restrict the SNAP program to some limited and basic foods ---think beans and rice.  And it should be a lending program in that the government should lend the money to people when in need with the expectation that it be paid back. 

Ah, but many mustachians (especially the paleos on this forumn)  are saying rice and beans will make everyone fatter.  ;)

Thank you for sharing your experiences with SNAP and WIC, though, definitely something to think about.

Bob W

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #140 on: October 27, 2014, 10:23:05 AM »
As mustachians we should all be writing our congress reps and imploring them to restrict the SNAP program to some limited and basic foods ---think beans and rice.  And it should be a lending program in that the government should lend the money to people when in need with the expectation that it be paid back. 

Ah, but many mustachians (especially the paleos on this forumn)  are saying rice and beans will make everyone fatter. 

Thank you for sharing your experiences with SNAP and WIC, though, definitely something to think about.

You're welcome!  I'm working towards Paleo myself so the beans and rice are out for me but since the FDA still says they are good for you, I think they would suffice for the SNAP program.  The WIC program actually was a grain based USDA promoted program that I didn't much like for the food content ---milk and grains for god sake!   But I did really appreciate that it was limited. 

We know that when you give people free money and unlimited choices,  they are likely to make some misinformed choices.     If the SNAP program was rice, beans and milk, I think participation would dwindle very quickly. 

justajane

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #141 on: October 27, 2014, 10:54:16 AM »
Under no circumstance should a tax payer be forced at the point of a government gun to provide any food other than beans for an adult citizen.   None.  That is the correct answer.

Fortunately the government in question doesn't force any citizen to provide food with the point of a gun.

*Insert specious bullshit Libertarian argument about taxation being armed robbery here*

Not sure which country you live in but in my country the tax collectors carry guns and the power to take the property of those who do not wish to pay to feed other people surf and turf.

In case posters here don't realize,  the SNAP program funding in the US can be used to buy virtually any food from prime rib to caviar.   It is not a temporary beans and rice program.   The program can now be used at many restaurants as well. 

I cracked up last year at the boat dock when I found a fisherman had left behind his shrimp bait only to notice that the receipt was paid for with and EBT card.   

The SNAP program has lots of lobbyist for the ag industry supporting it.   What they lobby for is to take the money you earn away from you to support their industry. 

So yeah,  if you want to voluntarily pay for someone else to eat lobster while you yourself are eating beans then go for it.  Don't expect me to happy being forced to do the same. 

I can never figure out why some posters on this site don't realize that government taxation is enforced with force and power??

Bob - your obsession with food stamps and seafood has shown up on other threads as well. Do you have any actual non-anecdotal evidence that lobster is being purchased en masse by SNAP recipients?

Not really obsessed with it.  I happen to work in the social services field and see the food spending of SNAP recipients on a daily basis.   Here is what I saw just last Friday.   One gentleman, who I love,  had an empty Pizza Hut pizza box and two boxes of wings on his living room floor. One of my favorite clients who always runs out of food (and I often supply it out of my own pocket) purchased $5 worth of donuts at the convenience store.  (both of these folks live completely off the government)  Then my wife remarked that an obese woman in front of her at a C store purchased a large bag of chips using an EBT card.  The woman also had a 120 oz soda in hand.

I'm not a libertarian fanatic but feel that many forum readers are mislead with regard to food stamps.

For reference,  I ran a WIC (Women's Infants and Children) program for 5 years.    I found it to be a very well thought out program.  It provided supplemental food and formula.  The food was limited to about 15 very specific basic things such as peanut butter, milk, cereal.   I would deem this a good program.

By contrast the Ag business run SNAP program has opened up the door as wide as possible and makes virtually any food purchased at any price available.  Yes, including lobster.  I would deem this a bad and destructive program.

As mustachians we should all be writing our congress reps and imploring them to restrict the SNAP program to some limited and basic foods ---think beans and rice.  And it should be a lending program in that the government should lend the money to people when in need with the expectation that it be paid back. 

I'm old enough to remember when government cheese and canned meat was what a person could expect. (1980s)  At that time there was probably less than 5 million people on food stamps and actual stamps were used.   Today, there are close to 50 million people on the SNAP program.  And a majority of school aged children also receive free or reduced lunches at school.   At our district it is 80%. 

It is not a war on poverty or hunger it is a way for the democrats to buy votes and for big ag to obtain government subsidies.

So you don't think I'm some type of Godless uncaring person I do personally give money to those in need.   I just don't appreciate being taxed to support peoples Pizza Hut and Potato chip habits.

Thanks, Bob. Your level of experience is not something I can dismiss out of hand. We have a friend who is a pediatrician who rails against the waste in the WIC program. In particular, he is annoyed that you can buy expensive brand name formula on the program. But that's thanks to the Enfamil lobby. I don't think it's demeaning to those in need to insist that they only buy store brands on government assistance or not allow the purchase of soda or desserts on SNAP. We can certainly agree on that. 

Bob W

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #142 on: October 27, 2014, 11:11:51 AM »
The WIC program may have changed since my tenure.   At that time it did not provide enough formula for a months time and breast feeding was highly encouraged.   The price of virtually all formula is high and I do know that we needed Doctor's orders for the more expensive special formulas.  Some babies just can't handle soy or whey products.   

Still, all in all I would say it is one of the better run government programs.   

By the way, one of my young adult children is constantly hitting me up for money for food of all things.   I ran the SNAP calculator on line for her today and it showed she is eligible for $185 a month in SNAP benefits. 

Thanks to all those on this thread for promoting the benefits of SNAP,  I am encouraging her to apply for benefits.  She is a great kid having a tough time who weighs about 100 lbs. 


Cpa Cat

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #143 on: October 27, 2014, 11:15:52 AM »
Some of you guys are pretty harsh on SNAP. I would at least throw in some frozen spinach with the rice and beans.

In all seriousness, reasonable (if slightly imperfect) limits are already in place for what can be purchased with WIC. It's pretty ridiculous that SNAP doesn't at least use the same limits.

Frankly, I think that SNAP should be tightened considerably. Then throw in free lunch for 100% of students (eliminate the paperwork). Use the school lunches as a method for food education - to ensure that all children are receiving one healthy, balanced meal (and ultimately learn how to construct one).

But I'm not a lobbyist, so my opinion is worth exactly nothing.

infogoon

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #144 on: October 27, 2014, 12:08:46 PM »
In case posters here don't realize,  the SNAP program funding in the US can be used to buy virtually any food from prime rib to caviar.   It is not a temporary beans and rice program.   The program can now be used at many restaurants as well. 

From the SNAP Restaurant Meals web site:

"Since 1977, the Restaurant Meals Program has been a voluntary component of the Federal Food Stamps Act. It enables qualified elderly, disabled and homeless SNAP recipients to buy food at authorized restaurants... The Restaurant Meals Program currently operates in Arizona and Michigan and in a handful of California counties."

So, you can buy prepared food with SNAP if you're homeless or too infirm or disabled to cook for yourself.

So yeah,  if you want to voluntarily pay for someone else to eat lobster while you yourself are eating beans then go for it.  Don't expect me to happy being forced to do the same. 

I can never figure out why some posters on this site don't realize that government taxation is enforced with force and power??

That's nothing. I have to pay taxes to support my municipal fire department, and my house has never even caught fire.

Bob W

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #145 on: October 27, 2014, 12:58:11 PM »
In case posters here don't realize,  the SNAP program funding in the US can be used to buy virtually any food from prime rib to caviar.   It is not a temporary beans and rice program.   The program can now be used at many restaurants as well. 

From the SNAP Restaurant Meals web site:

"Since 1977, the Restaurant Meals Program has been a voluntary component of the Federal Food Stamps Act. It enables qualified elderly, disabled and homeless SNAP recipients to buy food at authorized restaurants... The Restaurant Meals Program currently operates in Arizona and Michigan and in a handful of California counties."

So, you can buy prepared food with SNAP if you're homeless or too infirm or disabled to cook for yourself.

So yeah,  if you want to voluntarily pay for someone else to eat lobster while you yourself are eating beans then go for it.  Don't expect me to happy being forced to do the same. 

I can never figure out why some posters on this site don't realize that government taxation is enforced with force and power??

That's nothing. I have to pay taxes to support my municipal fire department, and my house has never even caught fire.

It is even worse for me!  I live in a zone 10 area.  Basically the worst fire protection rating a house can have due to distance from the closest fire house.   The insurance company assumes that your house will burn to the ground.   But the great thing is that I get to pay a higher insurance rate and a fire department tax.

So I asked the county commission if I refused to pay property tax to a fire department of no value to me what they would do.  They said they would send the sheriff (again paid for with my taxes and providing no service to me) to evict me and take my home.   I asked if he would be carrying a gun when he came to take my property because I refused to pay for two services I was not receiving.  They said yes and he would be bringing plenty of armed deputies with him.

Of course,  I made that last paragraph up just to irritate those here who do not fully understand how governments based on the King's law function.   But sadly, it is the reality. 



GuitarStv

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #146 on: October 27, 2014, 03:01:13 PM »
So move to a country where they let you pick what government services to pay for a la carte and stop bitching about where you live.

bacchi

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #147 on: October 27, 2014, 03:53:40 PM »
So move to a country where they let you pick what government services to pay for a la carte and stop bitching about where you live.

South Fulton, TN, just might be the place.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again

taekvideo

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #148 on: October 27, 2014, 10:03:48 PM »
the picture makes it pretty obvious why she's fat

enigmaT120

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Re: "I'm obese because I don't get enough government money"
« Reply #149 on: October 28, 2014, 10:57:58 AM »
Weird.  I live outside any fire protection district, which probably makes my insurance premiums higher than Bob's.  But I don't pay any property (or other) tax for a fire department.  I guess the nearest department would come fight the fire and bill my insurance company, but since my house is made of cedar I assume they will not be successful at saving the house.

Most of my property tax goes to pay for schools, even though I don't have any kids.  Oh well, I don't feel like moving to Somalia.