Author Topic: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"  (Read 11911 times)

FireLane

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"Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« on: October 28, 2024, 07:21:38 PM »
I debated posting this in Off Topic, since a lot of political stuff goes there. But this bears directly on Mustachian principles, so I thought this was an appropriate section for it.

I live in Queens, where NYC is planning a waterfront greenway. It would be a 16-mile path for pedestrians and bicyclists that would run from Astoria to the border of Nassau County, connecting several existing parks.

Sounds great, right? The greenway plan is a welcome step toward building the human-friendlier, car-optional city we should all want. It gives Queens residents another option to get around besides driving. In that sense, it increases our freedom. It encourages exercise, helps people connect with nature and the outdoors, and reduces traffic. Who could object to this?

Well, someone does: Vickie Paladino, the MAGA city councilwoman who represents part of the area the greenway would pass through. For reasons best known to herself, she's rabidly opposed to bikes and bike paths.

The NYC Department of Transportation has been holding forums about the greenway plan to spread awareness and invite public comment. The most recent one was on October 24. It was a workshop, where attendees saw a presentation from city employees about the plan and then broke up into small groups to discuss how they'd like to see it implemented.

This was a problem for Paladino's purposes. What she wanted was a hearing, where only one person at a time gets to speak. Obviously, her plan was to invite her hardcore supporters to monopolize the microphone, yell, grandstand, give speeches, prevent anyone who actually supported the greenway from getting to talk, and ensure that nothing got done.

But like I said, it wasn't a hearing, it was a workshop, which is structured so that a single person can't dominate it in that way. To deal with this problem, Paladino flat-out lied to her constituents to rile them up. She told them it was a hearing, even though that was never the plan and none of the announcements of the meeting described it as such.

According to some people I know who attended this meeting, Paladino and her supporters showed up in a group. They tried to take over the meeting, and when they failed, they yelled, cursed, made a fracas, and stormed out. Then she went on social media to complain that her voters, the only people who matter, are being ruthlessly oppressed by Big Bike. The title of this post is from a flier she handed out:



Paladino is angry about the bike path because she believes bikes are pointless and no one uses them. She says it will take away "valuable street parking," as if cars are the only means of transportation that matters, and our entire society should be designed around driving to the exclusion of all alternatives. This is Car Clown-ism raised to the level of a religious cult.

She's also opposed to it because - you can't make this up - she says it will be a getaway route for bike-riding criminal gangs. (You can also flee a crime scene by car, but somehow I doubt she's against roads.)

If you never would've thought that something as simple as a bike path would become a hyperpolarized partisan issue, well, this is where we are as a country. Republicans have decided that driving everywhere, for everything, is the only way Americans should live, and anyone who disagrees is the enemy. It's a variety of the same paranoia that's led them to invent conspiracy theories about the "15-minute city" - another walkable-city concept that they've decided is a grand plot to steal their freedom. If this mindset hasn't reared its head in your town yet, it's only a matter of time.

Askel

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2024, 05:56:19 AM »
It's true, I'm just a couple 14 year old boys in a trench coat pretending to be an adult. 

My secret is out now.

I finally feel free. 

Er.... We finally feel free.   

GilesMM

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2024, 07:11:57 AM »
Same story has played out all over the country every time a walking or bike path is proposed.  People always claim 1) it's not needed, 2) it will use up land better suited for other stuff, 3) affect private rights, and 4) bring noise and criminals.

dcheesi

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2024, 07:27:24 AM »
Same story has played out all over the country every time a walking or bike path is proposed.  People always claim 1) it's not needed, 2) it will use up land better suited for other stuff, 3) affect private rights, and 4) bring noise and criminals.
In other words, the stock-standard NIMBY playbook

Still amazing that she'd think this argument would work in NYC, of all places; one of the few locations in the country where alternatives to driving, including bikes, are the norm rather than the exception.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2024, 07:34:45 AM »
Hahahahaha . . . 'Bikes are not a method of commuting for actual adults in this area'.  I wonder if that's because there isn't a safe way to actually do it.  Literally the only complain on the flyer is that it might take away some street parking.  It makes me laugh because it's always the same bullshit from idiots without vision.  Every time.

crocheted_stache

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2024, 08:56:20 AM »
Greetings from the other coast. We don't seem to have too many of this breed around here, especially not in office, but we have NIMBYs for days. You don't need the vote of any one council member. You need the votes of a majority of others. There may be some shouty meetings to get through to get there.

Get with your local bike advocacy organization if you haven't yet. They know all about this, in general, even if they haven't seen this flyer yet. Warn them about this flyer. Warn whatever city staff or consultants are presenting this event, so they can prevent it from being the thing the shouty ones expect (no need to pass the microphone) and brace for what they can't avoid. They should know in advance how the 15-minute city idea has gotten distorted, too. Our popular city council meetings sometimes have a police officer or two in attendance, looking on mostly, but prepared if somebody loses it.

Your bike advocacy organization can help with building local support and reaching out to leaders (staff and elected) to let them know people want this and have their backs. A vocal opponent could unify and energize the advocates, too.

And if those flyers are in any places that flyers aren't allowed to be, consider removing them.

Good luck!

uniwelder

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2024, 11:03:51 AM »
...would run from Astoria to the border of Nassau County, connecting several existing parks.

Silly posting here on my part---

Without reading much further or looking at the provided map, I started typing stuff into Google Maps.  When you look at driving directions from 'Astoria Park' to 'Nassau County', it shows a 30 mile path along a mostly green ribbon of land through the center of the city, leaving you at Trader Joes by the water. 

Once I zoomed in a little and followed along, I noticed it was actually the parkway.  I keep thinking, wow, if only there was a way to put a bike path alongside that area, you'd have a really nice green route to pedal through.  It's quite amazing how much green space is reserved for the highway easement that could potentially have other uses.  Building bike tunnels or bridges to avoid traffic at the exit ramps might be interesting, but doable with enough support.

theninthwall

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2024, 12:33:10 PM »
Of all the conspiracy theories that are now in play, the hijacking of the 15-minute city is the one that irks me the most. People will go to Disneyland for a fake downtown experience with everything accessible by foot or public transport in beautiful parklands and talk about what a great vacation they had, but somehow think the same thing in a city context is impractical.

And back to the first post, it always seems to come down to freakin' parking. I listened to an urbanism podcast a while ago that talked about how businesses constantly overestimate how many customers arrive by car and underestimate how many walk or ride. The same studies found that businesses along bike paths enjoyed greater revenue and more customers (though with slightly less dollars per customer spent). It was also found that the parking spots were typically used up by the businesses and their employees, rather than their customers.

reeshau

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2024, 01:57:13 PM »
Someone needs to ask her how they manage the Miracle in Amsterdam.  Or (personal experience) Dublin.

Look!  People are so authentically commuting, one is even on his mobile while doing it!  (from Amsterdam)

Chaplin

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2024, 06:57:44 PM »
The fossil fuel lobby has ramped up massively in the last few months as active transportation keeps chalking up wins and looking better and better, both anecdotally and in reputable studies. This is a critical time in this fight. Don't dismiss the fossil fuel shills and anti-urbanists as irrelevant has-beens (I mean, they are, but as political pendulums tend to swing there's a big pro-car push on right now).

FireLane

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2024, 07:40:57 PM »
Get with your local bike advocacy organization if you haven't yet. They know all about this, in general, even if they haven't seen this flyer yet. Warn them about this flyer. Warn whatever city staff or consultants are presenting this event, so they can prevent it from being the thing the shouty ones expect (no need to pass the microphone) and brace for what they can't avoid. They should know in advance how the 15-minute city idea has gotten distorted, too. Our popular city council meetings sometimes have a police officer or two in attendance, looking on mostly, but prepared if somebody loses it.

Unfortunately, the city employees running this workshop were caught completely flat-footed. They knew who Paladino was and knew she planned to attend, but somehow didn't know that she was planning to disrupt the event. They maintained control just enough to enrage her and her followers into storming out, rather than staying and turning the meeting into a circus, so I guess that's something at least.

There's going to be one more public forum, and the DOT said on social media that there's going to be a code of conduct, so hopefully they won't be taken off-guard a second time.

Of all the conspiracy theories that are now in play, the hijacking of the 15-minute city is the one that irks me the most. People will go to Disneyland for a fake downtown experience with everything accessible by foot or public transport in beautiful parklands and talk about what a great vacation they had, but somehow think the same thing in a city context is impractical.

I've also heard that one reason so many Americans are nostalgic about college is because it's the last time many of them lived in a walkable community.

Someone needs to ask her how they manage the Miracle in Amsterdam.  Or (personal experience) Dublin.

Ah, but that's Europe, you see. Europeans are all socialists, so they're okay with the government forbidding them from driving. This is America, damn it, where we buy the biggest, most expensive, most ridiculously impractical SUVs that exist and drive them half a block from our driveways to the grocery store... because freedom. /s

RetireOrDieTrying

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2024, 03:06:54 PM »
Firstly, the OP is absolutely a political hit post, and should be classified accordingly.

To debate the actual topic... it's all about uptake and value for cost. Could it be successful in the way envisaged? It would take sufficient usage. You can wish all you want that America isn't populated with Americans, but that ain't gonna turn them into Europeans.

Example: Fort Worth. Spent heavily reducing vehicle traffic capacity in order to turn the roads into a crossword puzzle of markings for bikes. Ramped all the sidewalks. Installed endless miles of connecting paved paths. Rebuilt stupendously expensive bridges to add pedestrian and bike accomodations. Net result? WORSE emissions. WORSE traffic. The usage of the new capabilities isn't zero, but it's damn sure right next to zero, and you can verify this by simply going there and looking with your own eyes. Big money spent only to make every measurable metric worse, because they didn't factor in that people do what they want to do (as is their right). This wasn't a case of pedestrian and bicycle traffic driving the initiative; this was a "build it and they will come" pipe dream. To the dismay of this taxpayer, they simply didn't come.

Results matter, not intentions. Unless there is sufficient support to pay for it all (at the expense of something else) and actual usage once implemented, then there might be more value somewhere else.

reeshau

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2024, 05:11:26 PM »
Yes, the first thing you have to do is reduce the scale of the commute / errands / life.  Many US cities are unsuitable for anything but cars.  On purpose.  (Autos / oil was the tech industry of the early 20th century)

I was once describing my travel home from the Detroit airport to a Parisian.  Her response was, "by that time, we would be in another country!"

ixtap

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2024, 07:25:27 PM »
Yes, the first thing you have to do is reduce the scale of the commute / errands / life.  Many US cities are unsuitable for anything but cars.  On purpose.  (Autos / oil was the tech industry of the early 20th century)

I was once describing my travel home from the Detroit airport to a Parisian.  Her response was, "by that time, we would be in another country!"

To be fair, from Detroit you could quickly be in another country, as well.

I recently lived in a very bikeable.city. With a serious bike theft issue :(

theninthwall

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2024, 02:03:25 PM »
Results matter, not intentions. Unless there is sufficient support to pay for it all (at the expense of something else) and actual usage once implemented, then there might be more value somewhere else.

I think the issue is that the same standards aren’t applied to cars. There’s an interstate interchange project near me that has been underway for eight years and will cost close enough to $200m once finished. Aside from benefits to ‘safety’ there seems to be little reason for the upgrade to capacity. Even with construction ongoing traffic flows well through the area.

The microscope that goes on to bike lanes does not seem to be applied to big highway projects. Car dependency has a lot of hidden costs to society, but we all collectively turn a blind eye to the effects - while demanding a much higher standard from cycling or public transport projects.

RetireOrDieTrying

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2024, 03:15:41 PM »
The microscope that goes on to bike lanes does not seem to be applied to big highway projects. Car dependency has a lot of hidden costs to society, but we all collectively turn a blind eye to the effects - while demanding a much higher standard from cycling or public transport projects.

I disagree. Aside from very confined, extremely dense cases such as the NYC subway system, Chicago El, etc. (and the cute cable cars in SanFran which are now gone), public transit in the U.S. has been an overall failure in terms of percentage of ridership vs. literally anything else, especially when the Capex and Opex costs per transit mile are added up. The standard I'm applying as a taxpayer is "will this thing actually get used enough to make it worth the cost?" By that standard, personal motor vehicles easily - by a country mile - beat the mass transit options in this country, aside from the aforementioned examples. We can argue until we pass out from hypoxemia about what it would be like to ride a bicycle 47 miles one-way to the grocery store in Texas (that is not a hyperbolic example), but the people who pay for all this vote with their choices every day.

Now, overlay that argument with "bicycle usage," and the numbers are almost too small to even come up with a ratio. Recreational use in the U.S. is low-ish; commuting and utilitarian use is practically nonexistent even when it's a feasible option. Americans just point-blank don't want it enough to justify the cost, as a general statement. When that changes, so will the patterns. Until then... it won't, and that's just the cold, hard floor of the matter.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2024, 08:45:52 PM »
Heh, at least you guys are fighting for new bike lanes.  Here in Toronto we're fighting to not have the asshole provincial government rip out existing bike lanes 'as quickly as possible' to 'improve traffic'.  Despite the fact that the bike lanes were deemed necessary after years of study, were approved by city council, are heavily used (with increasing cycling in both winter and summer), local businesses have reported that the bike lanes have increased business, and studies have shown that they have reduced both traffic congestion and pollution in the area.  The city reports that construction is the cause of most traffic congestion in the area.  Ironically, we will need to introduce millions of dollars more construction to the area in order to rip out all the cycling infrastructure.

But the important thing is that our conservative government says most people drive and not many cycle, so fuck 'em.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-bike-lanes-bloor-yonge-university-could-be-removed-entirely-transportation-minister-1.7370940

scottish

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2024, 03:24:48 PM »
Heh, at least you guys are fighting for new bike lanes.  Here in Toronto we're fighting to not have the asshole provincial government rip out existing bike lanes 'as quickly as possible' to 'improve traffic'.  Despite the fact that the bike lanes were deemed necessary after years of study, were approved by city council, are heavily used (with increasing cycling in both winter and summer), local businesses have reported that the bike lanes have increased business, and studies have shown that they have reduced both traffic congestion and pollution in the area.  The city reports that construction is the cause of most traffic congestion in the area.  Ironically, we will need to introduce millions of dollars more construction to the area in order to rip out all the cycling infrastructure.

But the important thing is that our conservative government says most people drive and not many cycle, so fuck 'em.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-bike-lanes-bloor-yonge-university-could-be-removed-entirely-transportation-minister-1.7370940

C'mon, cars don't cause congestion, bicycles do!   /s

Yeah, Dougie's missing the boat on this one.    The man has odd obsessions with beer and cars.     Especially beer.

crocheted_stache

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2024, 10:12:41 PM »
I have yet to visit these particular cities, but I have spent enough time in bike forums to have seen the monikers, "Autowa" and "Caronto."


I just put this in Mustachian People Problems, but maybe it should go here, too. At least this guy is not somebody I need to persuade to build or approve bike lanes.

Today I needed something modified, so I dropped it off at a shop. The object is smaller and lighter than the pretty ordinary-sized hardcover library book beside me and fit comfortably in my bike bag.

The person I handed it off to was absolutely appalled that I'd bicycled there. "I'm so sorry you had to bike here. If I'd known, I'd have come by to pick it up."

It did not matter how many times I assured him that I biked because I wanted to. I chose to bike. I love biking. I prefer biking. It's a beautiful day. I bike more than I drive. I bike thousands of miles every year, and this trip was maybe four miles if I round up. I said I would drop it off, and I did. What difference does it make how I got it there, and why is it remotely his problem? He just kept apologizing for "making" me bike all that way.

In a proper case of staircase wit, it occurred to me on the ride back that I should have replied, "I'm so sorry you have to drive so much, when biking is so much more fun." Maybe I'll try telling him that if he lets me go pick it up when it's done.

(https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/staircase_wit)

reeshau

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2024, 07:03:50 AM »
Take heart!  Enlightenment can come, even in Texas.  Although for them, it may be too late.

Askel

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2024, 07:10:33 AM »
Take heart!  Enlightenment can come, even in Texas.  Although for them, it may be too late.

Techbros will do absolutely anything to not have to get on a bus.  :D   

scottish

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2024, 10:52:51 AM »
Take heart!  Enlightenment can come, even in Texas.  Although for them, it may be too late.

Techbros will do absolutely anything to not have to get on a bus.  :D

I was thinking they'd just buy 10K carbon fibre bicycles.     A gondola rail network indeed!

crocheted_stache

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2024, 11:39:38 PM »
Take heart!  Enlightenment can come, even in Texas.  Although for them, it may be too late.

Techbros will do absolutely anything to not have to get on a bus.  :D

Sooo many headlines about Silicon Valley reinventing the bus. There's a Facebook group and a Substack on exactly this theme.

There's more than one "podcar" proponent:
https://sanjosespotlight.com/san-jose-hosts-a-futuristic-vision-of-mass-transportation-podcar-city-conference-personal-rapid-transit/
https://gomilpitas.com/media/news-archives/loopworks-joins-race-to-build-1st-bay-area-smart-transit/

Silicon Valley will get on a bus as long as it's a company bus and not a city bus. More than one of the large tech firms run their own shuttle buses.

sonofsven

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2024, 02:33:43 AM »
In elementary school (70's)  we did a project with our vision of the future: mine was basically a "road train" with a puller engine that all the cars would hook to and get pulled down the freeway to the next stop.
I even drew a picture of all the happy commuters in their little cars.
The puller would be a diesel/electric hybrid.
I'm available for direct funding from investors :-)

Laura33

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2024, 09:26:11 AM »
The microscope that goes on to bike lanes does not seem to be applied to big highway projects. Car dependency has a lot of hidden costs to society, but we all collectively turn a blind eye to the effects - while demanding a much higher standard from cycling or public transport projects.

I disagree. Aside from very confined, extremely dense cases such as the NYC subway system, Chicago El, etc. (and the cute cable cars in SanFran which are now gone), public transit in the U.S. has been an overall failure in terms of percentage of ridership vs. literally anything else, especially when the Capex and Opex costs per transit mile are added up. The standard I'm applying as a taxpayer is "will this thing actually get used enough to make it worth the cost?" By that standard, personal motor vehicles easily - by a country mile - beat the mass transit options in this country, aside from the aforementioned examples.

Well, the point is that the OP does involve one of those "extremely dense" areas where alternatives to car transport have consistently been shown to work. 

I flat-out agree that bicycle commuting and Texas don't naturally go together, except for a very small portion of the population.  Honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to bike to/from work in TX summer.  OTOH, you also couldn't pay me to drive to/from work in NYC, either -- I'd lose my shit and either have a heart attack or shoot someone (and I don't even own a gun). 

The problem with any policy or theory is when it is applied universally, without taking local issues into account.

Siebrie

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2024, 01:13:06 AM »
Heh, at least you guys are fighting for new bike lanes.  Here in Toronto we're fighting to not have the asshole provincial government rip out existing bike lanes 'as quickly as possible' to 'improve traffic'.  Despite the fact that the bike lanes were deemed necessary after years of study, were approved by city council, are heavily used (with increasing cycling in both winter and summer), local businesses have reported that the bike lanes have increased business, and studies have shown that they have reduced both traffic congestion and pollution in the area.  The city reports that construction is the cause of most traffic congestion in the area.  Ironically, we will need to introduce millions of dollars more construction to the area in order to rip out all the cycling infrastructure.

But the important thing is that our conservative government says most people drive and not many cycle, so fuck 'em.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-bike-lanes-bloor-yonge-university-could-be-removed-entirely-transportation-minister-1.7370940

You're seeing it wrong (/s); they are getting ready for the self-driving electric car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=040ejWnFkj0 (relevant for this topic at 28.04)

ChpBstrd

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2024, 01:22:33 PM »
I keep hearing Democrats talk about a "blue line" that keeps getting pushed further and further back each election. Now it seems even NYC has fallen.

Just keep running the same play. It has to work someday, right?

roomtempmayo

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2024, 04:13:38 PM »
Take heart!  Enlightenment can come, even in Texas.  Although for them, it may be too late.

Techbros will do absolutely anything to not have to get on a bus.  :D

Sooo many headlines about Silicon Valley reinventing the bus. There's a Facebook group and a Substack on exactly this theme.

There's more than one "podcar" proponent:
https://sanjosespotlight.com/san-jose-hosts-a-futuristic-vision-of-mass-transportation-podcar-city-conference-personal-rapid-transit/
https://gomilpitas.com/media/news-archives/loopworks-joins-race-to-build-1st-bay-area-smart-transit/

Silicon Valley will get on a bus as long as it's a company bus and not a city bus. More than one of the large tech firms run their own shuttle buses.

To their credit, they at least tacitly acknowledge that what we have in urban America isn't at its root a transit problem.  It's a poverty/untreated mental health/homelessness/addiction problem on transit and in public spaces.  And since they aren't really interested in trying to solve that problem because it's both hard and human, they're trying to engineer around it.

HPstache

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2024, 04:22:26 PM »
Someone needs to ask her how they manage the Miracle in Amsterdam.  Or (personal experience) Dublin.

Look!  People are so authentically commuting, one is even on his mobile while doing it!  (from Amsterdam)

Not a single helmet in this picture... crazy

crocheted_stache

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2024, 01:02:54 AM »
Someone needs to ask her how they manage the Miracle in Amsterdam.  Or (personal experience) Dublin.

Look!  People are so authentically commuting, one is even on his mobile while doing it!  (from Amsterdam)

Not a single helmet in this picture... crazy

We had a visit from the Dutch Cycling Embassy a few years back. Somebody remarked on the near-universal lack of helmets in all the photos and videos they shared. I was pretty sure the guy was going to explain that they didn't need them because the traffic was so much better managed, and that is a reason, too.

The speaker was super blunt: They don't work. What he meant by that is that they're kind of okay if you go head-over-handlebars at low speed on a bike and utterly useless in case of tangling with a car at higher speeds.

I still wear mine, but that's because I live in the US and not the Netherlands, and because I've known a few people that were saved by helmets—or might have been.

Siebrie

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2024, 02:03:21 AM »
The other reason they won't work: Dutch people will just stop cycling if they have to put on a helmet. So, the government does not insist, but vaguely suggests that it would be a good idea. The negative health effects of many people no longer cycling are a highter cost than the few accidents where a helmet would have been benificial (re the other accidents: see above).

GuitarStv

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2024, 07:42:29 AM »
My understanding of the testing of bike helmets is that they just simulate falling the distance an average adult head would be from a stationary bike to the flat ground, and then the same onto a curb or rock.  I regularly hit more than 70 km/h on some steeper downhill sections that I ride, and often think about that as I'm zipping down.

The main reason to wear a bike helmet is that they improve aerodynamics.  :P

ChpBstrd

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2024, 10:51:55 AM »
My understanding of the testing of bike helmets is that they just simulate falling the distance an average adult head would be from a stationary bike to the flat ground, and then the same onto a curb or rock.  I regularly hit more than 70 km/h on some steeper downhill sections that I ride, and often think about that as I'm zipping down.

The main reason to wear a bike helmet is that they improve aerodynamics.  :P
Here's a fun video about bike helmet testing - and some of the sketchy counterfeit helmets for sale on Amazon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKbYaOiz5U4
Quote
So this went from a fun video about helmet safety to a video about murderers, basically.

And the list of most and least safe helmets tested:
https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

I know a road biker who cracked their helmet in half after being hit by a car. They lost their senses of taste and smell, and are a bit more dis-inhibited than before, but they're otherwise fully recovered and happy. With the level of brain damage they sustained, I'm pretty sure they'd have either died or lost their ability to function independently had they not been wearing the helmet. These resources make me wonder if a different helmet might have prevented the brain damage completely.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2024, 11:45:07 AM »
My understanding of the testing of bike helmets is that they just simulate falling the distance an average adult head would be from a stationary bike to the flat ground, and then the same onto a curb or rock.  I regularly hit more than 70 km/h on some steeper downhill sections that I ride, and often think about that as I'm zipping down.

The main reason to wear a bike helmet is that they improve aerodynamics.  :P
Here's a fun video about bike helmet testing - and some of the sketchy counterfeit helmets for sale on Amazon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKbYaOiz5U4
Quote
So this went from a fun video about helmet safety to a video about murderers, basically.

And the list of most and least safe helmets tested:
https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

I know a road biker who cracked their helmet in half after being hit by a car. They lost their senses of taste and smell, and are a bit more dis-inhibited than before, but they're otherwise fully recovered and happy. With the level of brain damage they sustained, I'm pretty sure they'd have either died or lost their ability to function independently had they not been wearing the helmet. These resources make me wonder if a different helmet might have prevented the brain damage completely.

I'm pretty sure a background in jiu-jitsu and judo has saved me from some problems.  I've been hit by cars several times - and twice was launched me off the bike pretty hard/fast.  Both times I flew more than ten ft away.  I tucked and shoulder rolled out totally by instinct in both instances.  Other than some bruising and road rash on my outer arm/thigh, the one time my helmet got a little cracked on the front edge so I had to replace it.  The other time there wasn't even a scratch on the helmet.  Martial arts are the gift that keeps giving your whole life long.

41_swish

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2024, 12:37:49 PM »
I live in a town with a good mixed use bike network and I love using it to ride to work. When the weather is good this is way better than driving.

Treedream

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2024, 07:02:16 AM »
I can concur: We don't wear bicycle helmets in NL. And yes, people have an aversion to the idea of wearing them. With the rise of the Fat Bike, there are more voices for helmets for e-bikes, but it is getting a lot of pushback, because the way to implement helmets on fat bikes would mean all e-bike riders would need to wear a helmet. TBH it wouldn't be a bad idea to have helmets on E-bikes. Especially for the elderly that drive on e-bikes as they age.

Gone Fishing

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2024, 07:42:21 AM »
Flyer almost reads like a reverse psychology promotion to me.

41_swish

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2024, 09:10:44 AM »
I can concur: We don't wear bicycle helmets in NL. And yes, people have an aversion to the idea of wearing them. With the rise of the Fat Bike, there are more voices for helmets for e-bikes, but it is getting a lot of pushback, because the way to implement helmets on fat bikes would mean all e-bike riders would need to wear a helmet. TBH it wouldn't be a bad idea to have helmets on E-bikes. Especially for the elderly that drive on e-bikes as they age.
I wish I was from the Netherlands and not car dependent America, ugh. It is on my radar to take a trip there in the next couple of years!

ChpBstrd

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2024, 06:43:54 AM »
I can concur: We don't wear bicycle helmets in NL. And yes, people have an aversion to the idea of wearing them. With the rise of the Fat Bike, there are more voices for helmets for e-bikes, but it is getting a lot of pushback, because the way to implement helmets on fat bikes would mean all e-bike riders would need to wear a helmet. TBH it wouldn't be a bad idea to have helmets on E-bikes. Especially for the elderly that drive on e-bikes as they age.
I'm curious about whether people in the NL get more head injuries than people elsewhere.

On the one hand, all those millions on bikes have to lead to some accidents. On the other hand, there's less interaction with cars and lower speeds than cyclists in the U.S. deal with. 

Dutch Comfort

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2024, 10:25:12 AM »
I can concur: We don't wear bicycle helmets in NL. And yes, people have an aversion to the idea of wearing them. With the rise of the Fat Bike, there are more voices for helmets for e-bikes, but it is getting a lot of pushback, because the way to implement helmets on fat bikes would mean all e-bike riders would need to wear a helmet. TBH it wouldn't be a bad idea to have helmets on E-bikes. Especially for the elderly that drive on e-bikes as they age.
I'm curious about whether people in the NL get more head injuries than people elsewhere.

On the one hand, all those millions on bikes have to lead to some accidents. On the other hand, there's less interaction with cars and lower speeds than cyclists in the U.S. deal with.

In 2022 there were appr. 89,000 cyclists in the Netherlands who had an injury and had to go to the ER, of which 15,000 had a major head injury. Use of helmets is expected to result in a decrease of 5,000. So 15,000 head injuries yearly on a total distance biked by all cyclists of 15 billion kilometers....... Not a bad statistic......

41_swish

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2024, 11:12:27 AM »
Maybe it's because I grew up in the burbs of Canada, but the concept of not wearing a bike helmet is so foreign to me. I was taught to wear one from as young as I remember, especially for riding a bike and skiing. The other day I rode my bike 0.4 miles to the grocery store and wore a helmet. It feels weird to ride a bike without one.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2024, 11:42:21 AM »
Maybe it's because I grew up in the burbs of Canada, but the concept of not wearing a bike helmet is so foreign to me. I was taught to wear one from as young as I remember, especially for riding a bike and skiing. The other day I rode my bike 0.4 miles to the grocery store and wore a helmet. It feels weird to ride a bike without one.

Same.  Although I'm unconvinced that helmets are terribly protective for the type of cycling I do, I'll take all the extra safety I can get.  Of course, dedicated bike lanes and less being forced into the road with cars would be much safer . . . but we're busy taking out dedicated bike lanes and forcing more bikes into the road with cars so serious safety enhancement seems to be off the table.

41_swish

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2024, 11:56:45 AM »
God, I have become so American. I don't even use metric anymore and I spell words like "favorite" and "color".... What have I become?

I usually always ride on mixed use paths and there I probably good ride no helmet. However, I still ride in bike lanes enough that I feel most comfortable wearing a helmet.

Wintergreen78

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2024, 12:44:27 PM »
Here’s my sample size of one: commuted by bicycle in four different American cities and towns for about 20 years. All on the same bike, no helmet.

I would wear a helmet for bike races or for mountain biking, but I’ve always perceived riding around town to be relatively low risk in the places I lived.

crocheted_stache

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2024, 07:29:12 PM »
Someone speaking at a public meeting recently suggested that instead of adding expensive bike lanes, all those bike people should get stationary bikes so they could work out safely at home and not slow down cars on the street in question. Another person objected that staff had not been involved in the process—to a room about half full of staff.

I am pleased to report that nobody in charge gave in to the opponents, and the plan was approved including bike lanes.

Wintergreen78

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2024, 07:51:20 PM »
Someone speaking at a public meeting recently suggested that instead of adding expensive bike lanes, all those bike people should get stationary bikes so they could work out safely at home and not slow down cars on the street in question. Another person objected that staff had not been involved in the process—to a room about half full of staff.

I am pleased to report that nobody in charge gave in to the opponents, and the plan was approved including bike lanes.

Oh, now all that needs to happen is to implement the plan! I showed up at one of those public meetings about 6 years ago. The plan got approved, and the easiest 30% has been built. All the lanes and paths that would really make a difference will get built one day…

ChpBstrd

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2024, 07:12:03 AM »
I can concur: We don't wear bicycle helmets in NL. And yes, people have an aversion to the idea of wearing them. With the rise of the Fat Bike, there are more voices for helmets for e-bikes, but it is getting a lot of pushback, because the way to implement helmets on fat bikes would mean all e-bike riders would need to wear a helmet. TBH it wouldn't be a bad idea to have helmets on E-bikes. Especially for the elderly that drive on e-bikes as they age.
I'm curious about whether people in the NL get more head injuries than people elsewhere.

On the one hand, all those millions on bikes have to lead to some accidents. On the other hand, there's less interaction with cars and lower speeds than cyclists in the U.S. deal with.

In 2022 there were appr. 89,000 cyclists in the Netherlands who had an injury and had to go to the ER, of which 15,000 had a major head injury. Use of helmets is expected to result in a decrease of 5,000. So 15,000 head injuries yearly on a total distance biked by all cyclists of 15 billion kilometers....... Not a bad statistic......
Thanks! Against a NL population of 18M that's a rate of 0.083% of the population having a major head injury from a bike wreck annually.

I found this information about the US having 596,972 "traumatic brain injuries" (TBI) from bike accidents over a 9-year period - averaging out to about 66,330 per year.  Against a US population of about 330M toward the end of the measurement period, that's a rate of 0.02% of the population having a major head injury from a bike wreck annually.

So maybe having a more bike-intensive culture leads to 4x as many bike-related head injuries per capita? But I don't think these numbers can separate out the effects of helmet use, because so many fewer Americans ride bikes (or even can ride a bike). Plus there are the problems that (1) American cyclists arguably face tougher infrastructure to ride on, like the choice between stroads or narrow sidewalks, and (2) I'm not sure we've actually proven that more US cyclists than NL cyclists wear helmets for most of the miles they ride. Also, this should certainly not be a persuasive argument that a bike-intensive culture is more dangerous, because the above stats don't include anything about car wrecks. A total of about 1.7M people in the US sustain a TBI per year from all causes, a rate of about 0.5% of the population, so the 0.02% that get their TBI in a bike wreck is a tiny minority of the total. Falls, falling objects, or car wrecks are more common causes in the U.S. than bike crashes.

GuitarStv

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2024, 07:42:59 AM »
Many, many confounding variables at play.

I strongly suspect that the cycling populations in the Netherlands are quite different from those in North America (Netherlands having far more elderly, with slower reaction times and worse balance than the North American 20-40 year old man that is the typical cyclist).  Dutch bikes are often outfitted with terrible brakes (coaster brakes are virtually unheard of on adult bikes in North America), and often have just a single braking system rather than the mandatory redundant front/rear setup followed here in North America.  Injury reporting is often done at hospitals or in police accident reports.  In North America we tend to either punish or ignore the concerns of cyclists and always side drivers in driver/cyclist accidents so there's very little reason for a cyclist here to talk to police.  In the US going to a hospital can be expensive, so might be suppressing numbers.

ChpBstrd

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #48 on: December 19, 2024, 08:27:03 AM »
Many, many confounding variables at play.

I strongly suspect that the cycling populations in the Netherlands are quite different from those in North America (Netherlands having far more elderly, with slower reaction times and worse balance than the North American 20-40 year old man that is the typical cyclist).  Dutch bikes are often outfitted with terrible brakes (coaster brakes are virtually unheard of on adult bikes in North America), and often have just a single braking system rather than the mandatory redundant front/rear setup followed here in North America.  Injury reporting is often done at hospitals or in police accident reports.  In North America we tend to either punish or ignore the concerns of cyclists and always side drivers in driver/cyclist accidents so there's very little reason for a cyclist here to talk to police.  In the US going to a hospital can be expensive, so might be suppressing numbers.
My impression is that the 4x increase of a tiny percentage might be a bargain price to pay for the benefits the Dutch are enjoying - cleaner air, better population health leading to a lower cost of healthcare, less congestion, vastly lower costs of transport, reduced petroleum dependency, lower infrastructure costs, more beautiful cities, etc.

And of course there are fewer car crashes, fewer cases of congestive heart failure, fewer cancers, etc. I struggle to find a confounding factor that would be in favor of a car-centric culture. Issues with getting rained on perhaps?

GuitarStv

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Re: "Bicycles are not a method of commuting for actual adults"
« Reply #49 on: December 19, 2024, 08:52:16 AM »
Many, many confounding variables at play.

I strongly suspect that the cycling populations in the Netherlands are quite different from those in North America (Netherlands having far more elderly, with slower reaction times and worse balance than the North American 20-40 year old man that is the typical cyclist).  Dutch bikes are often outfitted with terrible brakes (coaster brakes are virtually unheard of on adult bikes in North America), and often have just a single braking system rather than the mandatory redundant front/rear setup followed here in North America.  Injury reporting is often done at hospitals or in police accident reports.  In North America we tend to either punish or ignore the concerns of cyclists and always side drivers in driver/cyclist accidents so there's very little reason for a cyclist here to talk to police.  In the US going to a hospital can be expensive, so might be suppressing numbers.
My impression is that the 4x increase of a tiny percentage might be a bargain price to pay for the benefits the Dutch are enjoying - cleaner air, better population health leading to a lower cost of healthcare, less congestion, vastly lower costs of transport, reduced petroleum dependency, lower infrastructure costs, more beautiful cities, etc.

And of course there are fewer car crashes, fewer cases of congestive heart failure, fewer cancers, etc. I struggle to find a confounding factor that would be in favor of a car-centric culture. Issues with getting rained on perhaps?

Agreed - I think everything listed is a confounding factor favourable to more cycling.