Yet another combination of sad and foolishness....

[No Name Guy]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/-i-m-never-going-to-be-able-to-retire--134736593.html?vp=1

At age 58 and less than a decade away from retirement, Nancie Eichengreen, found herself having to start over from scratch.

It was 2012 and she had been laid off for the second time in 10 years from her job as a legal secretary. She spent a few years collecting unemployment benefits and dipping into her meager 401(k) savings to fill in the gaps.

Two years ago, she decided to start over completely, going back to school for a Masters degree in social work at Yeshiva University in New York. Today, Eichengreen now 60, is living off of student loans and says it’s unlikely that she’ll be able to pay off her $200,000 student debt, which includes what she borrowed for her first Masters studies in broadcast management.

“I don’t think social workers make much money so I’ll probably be dead before I pay that off,” she said.

Really.....so you KNOW social workers don't make much, yet you're going in hock to the tune of 200k (combined with your last useless masters?) for it?  The sad, foolish desperation, it burns!

58 - meager 401k savings.  Going back for a 2nd masters (so what did you make of the first one, being a legal secretary with a masters in broadcast management). 

Her situation is unfortunate but not unique. Thirty-four percent of workers have nothing set aside for retirement, according to the U.S. Social Security Administration. A study by the National Institute on Retirement Security found 40 percent of workers 55-65 years old do not own assets in a retirement account.

Holy shit Batman.....shakes head in a combination of pity and anger, since this person, Ms. Eichengreen, and the others like her, are nothing but willful-out-of-ignorance sponges on a society that refuses to metaphorically face punch them, tell them to suck it up and just work at Wally world or McBurger Flipper.  And talk about an example of moral hazard - who in their right mind, risking their hard earned capital at actual risk of loss, would willingly lend this lady 200k for a FUCKING SOCIAL WORK degree at her age?  I'll tell you.  No one.....except if they know the taxpayer have their back and can't lose, that's who.....or a whiny politician or bureaucrat who is used to pissing away other peoples money that was taken at the point of a gun.  [end rant]

[anisotropy]

Since I had to come to the office on a Sunday morning in -20 C weather I will rant too.

The loan was prob approved due to student loans policies; Yeshiva is an accredited college, quite highly ranked too. As long as all the forms are in order along with all the proper signatures, I dont see how the govt can deny the loan, lest they get dragged into a discrimination lawsuit. Is the social welfare system at fault here? Maybe, maybe not.

Being a private college, most of that 200k is probably going towards tuition, so Eichengreen is likely not living large on the American Taxpayer's dime.
 
I feel it is in our nature to be spendy and not plan long term. Perhaps it's an evolutionary trait? In a about a hundred years our life expectancy has increased by 150% (30 to 80) and maybe as a specie we are still not fully adjusted to this fact, maybe this also explains why so many of our "plans" fail lol. I will never forget that when I visited Dubai in April 2010, "the city of superlatives", the only public place with a full parking lot was the airport. With so many cranes and construction projects just "abandoned" on site in the middle of the city the whole experience was quite neat.   

People swarmed the city on a modern day gold rush, lived a fairy tale lifestyle, when everything came crashing down they just packed up what they could and ran for their lives back to their home town instead of fixing their mistakes. The best part? It's happening all over again.

If these society "elites" aren't willing to change their ways from this experience, do we really expect the general public to man up and take responsibilities? In their mind (or even a MMM practitioner's darkest corner), there will always be a way out: parents, families, friends, govt welfare, you name it. After all, we are "stronger together" right?

"Let's build our future, together."

"No man is an island."

"Strength through Unity!"

"United we stand!"

These slogans are awesome, if I ever run for office I might borrow them lol. Jokes aside, I have no clue how to fix the system, maybe things dont need fixing at all. Dont we also say "the best cure for high price is high price, and the best cure for low price is low price"?

Here's a story to end my rant. So last long weekend I went to a house party with a whole bunch of friends at a friend's parents place. I've known most of these guys for about 15 years (we used to play video games together quite often) but have been drifting apart since 2007 ish to the point that we only chat online sometimes, ya, not even texts. Perhaps due to our different viewpoints of life. They are more "be happy and live life to the fullest" type, whereas I am more of a schemer, always "planning and scheming" lol.

It's been a few years since I had been to his place, but it was easy to find. In fact it stood out as soon as I turned the corner. 1, 2, 3, 4 BMW 300s parked on the streets and driveway. 1 BIG Ford truck (now i want one), 1 fully loaded Acura TSX, 1 Audi A8, and our host's car: a beautiful Mercedes Benz C300.

We were the last ones to arrive. They kept asking me if I plan to get a new car after they saw my 07 Chev. I just shrugged and said it's a different lifestyle (actually if I had 10x the money I have today I'd prob drive a big truck AND a Caddy). One friend even joked "dude are you spending all your money on h**kers?" My girl laughed, I love her.

We had fun that night; it was good to see them. Now I am judging them as I sit alone in this empty office. Knowing that their after tax household income (friend+so) is probably somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3 of ours.... they sure know how to be happy and live life to the fullest. I am jealous.

[Josiecat]

I am very concerned for the future of this country.  So many people are NOT saving anything for retirement.  Who is going to help them make it??  All of us.  We are.  These people will be on Medicaid, food stamps, and government housing which we will all pay for.

A crisis is coming due to these morons who spend every penny and more instead of investing in their futures.

[ginastarke]

"suck it up and just work at Wally world or McBurger Flipper"

She doesn't even need to do that -She's got a degree, legal secretary experience, just  go to a temp agency.

Small rant - every freaking time I suggest this to someone, they whine " but I  neeeed a permennnnt jooob"  right, if you show  you're  worth keeping it will be in a lot of cases!

[sheepstache]

That's marvelous.

[Unionville]

How do we educate our country in a hurry?  We need to teach people how to stop spending! 2 years on unemployment? huh?  This is insane.

[sherr]

I feel it is in our nature to be spendy and not plan long term. Perhaps it's an evolutionary trait? In a about a hundred years our life expectancy has increased by 150% (30 to 80) and maybe as a specie we are still not fully adjusted to this fact, maybe this also explains why so many of our "plans" fail lol.

By the way, this is a common misconception. If you adjust for the higher rates of infant mortality by taking life expectancy of a 5-year-old, then it has pretty much always been normal to live into your 60s, 70s, or even 80s. Sure having a better handle on diseases has improved life expectancy somewhat in modern first world countries, but it's by a decade or two, not 150%.

[Albert]

By the way, this is a common misconception. If you adjust for the higher rates of infant mortality by taking life expectancy of a 5-year-old, then it has pretty much always been normal to live into your 60s, 70s, or even 80s. Sure having a better handle on diseases has improved life expectancy somewhat in modern first world countries, but it's by a decade or two, not 150%.

That is certainly true, at least if we talk about upper class people in the 19th century. Just for fun here are the age the first 20 presidents in your country died: 67, 90, 83, 85, 73, 80, 78, 79, 68, 72, 54, 66, 74, 65, 76, 56, 67, 63, 71, 50 for the average of 71 years (about a decade below the current life expectancy at birth). On the contrast here are how long 14-17th century English kings lived (12, from Henry VII till William III): 52, 55, 15, 42, 71, 69, 58, 48, 54, 67, 32, 51 for the average of 51 years.

[rocksinmyhead]

"suck it up and just work at Wally world or McBurger Flipper"

She doesn't even need to do that -She's got a degree, legal secretary experience, just  go to a temp agency.

Small rant - every freaking time I suggest this to someone, they whine " but I  neeeed a permennnnt jooob"  right, if you show  you're  worth keeping it will be in a lot of cases!

I kept striking out on my job search in NYC (I'm a secretary and bookkeeper) *until* I went to temp agencies. I was working 35 hours a week within a week. Within 6 weeks I had a full time, permanent job with benefits, making more than I ever have in my life, plus a lucrative temp PT flex job that's going to last until this restaurant's controller gets back from maternity leave. And I STILL have people tell me you can't get "real jobs" through temping.

it worked great for my boyfriend when we moved across the country, too. it's not an ideal job (he has to work a shit ton of overtime... but at least he gets paid for it) but he got it without a degree and only somewhat related experience. even if he never gets a decent raise out of it, he has already been promoted and will continue to be so when he goes to the next job he will have higher-level experience and hopefully be able to command a higher paycheck. I too had heard similar things (that temp agencies were hopeless/no good) so it's so good to know that's definitely not always the case!

Holy shit Batman.....shakes head in a combination of pity and anger, since this person, Ms. Eichengreen, and the others like her, are nothing but willful-out-of-ignorance sponges on a society that refuses to metaphorically face punch them, tell them to suck it up and just work at Wally world or McBurger Flipper.  And talk about an example of moral hazard - who in their right mind, risking their hard earned capital at actual risk of loss, would willingly lend this lady 200k for a FUCKING SOCIAL WORK degree at her age?  I'll tell you.  No one.....except if they know the taxpayer have their back and can't lose, that's who.....or a whiny politician or bureaucrat who is used to pissing away other peoples money that was taken at the point of a gun.  [end rant]

yeah... like was discussed in the recent student loans thread started by galliver, I personally think eventually student loans are going to HAVE to be dischargeable in bankruptcy/not backed by the government (or only backed up to a certain amount, or something). some people are not going to be able to go to their desired school, but eventually it will drive tuition down and solve a lot of problems.

but yeah, god, what a depressing article overall. thanks for sharing... I guess? ;)

[TreeTired]

This actually could be the new way to fund retirement.   At age 65, with little savings and no job and no income, what do you do?    Just go back to school and live on student loans!   What a great idea!   I wonder how many years you can do this and how much you can borrow...   A PhD program would certainly take more time then a masters, but perhaps you could go for multiple masters degrees.

[GrayGhost]

I feel it is in our nature to be spendy and not plan long term. Perhaps it's an evolutionary trait?

In my opinion, a lot of what makes human beings the masters of the world is our ability to look ahead and to delay gratification. Even the least intelligent among us are rarely as impulsive as other animals. It's just that most of us haven't developed the ability to look decades forward into the future.

Food for thought:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

[Russ]

In my opinion, a lot of what makes human beings the masters of the world is our ability to look ahead and to delay gratification. Even the least intelligent among us are rarely as impulsive as other animals. It's just that most of us haven't developed the ability to look decades forward into the future.

Food for thought:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

Also our ability to tell ourselves that we're the masters of the world

[warfreak2]

Food for thought:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

I suspect that a lot of the difference can be explained by children in worse situations having learned that "you can have two marshmallows later" is usually a lie.

[rocksinmyhead]

Food for thought:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment

I suspect that a lot of the difference can be explained by children in worse situations having learned that "you can have two marshmallows later" is usually a lie.

totally. I didn't bother to go check out the actual sources, but the Wikipedia entry actually talks about a follow-up study that tried to get at this.

A 2012 study at the University of Rochester altered the experiment by dividing children into two groups: one group was given a broken promise before the marshmallow test was conducted (the unreliable tester group), and the second group had a fulfilled promise before their marshmallow test (the reliable tester group). The reliable tester group waited up to four times longer (12 min) than the unreliable tester group for the second marshmallow to appear.[6][12] The authors argue that this calls into question the original interpretation of self-control as the critical factor in children's performance, since self control should predict an inability to wait, not strategic waiting when it makes sense. The authors suggest that the correlations between marshmallow performance and later life success may therefore be confounded, with successful children being raised in reliable situations. Prior to the Marshmallow Studies at Stanford, Walter Mischel had shown that the child's belief that the promised delayed rewards would actually be delivered is an important determinant of the choice to delay, but his later experiments did not take this factor into account or control for individual variation in beliefs about reliability when reporting correlations with life successes.[13][14][15][16]

really interesting. just another example of a kind of privilege people totally take for granted (I know I do).

[Albert]

...I feel it is in our nature to be spendy and not plan long term. Perhaps it's an evolutionary trait?...

Humans, largely, stopped evolving tens of thousands of years ago, before the existence of "finances."

Perhaps, as a species, we have an easier time with "save grain for winter" than "save money for old age - to buy grain with."

That's one too many layers of abstraction for some people to wrap their heads around.

I doubt very much that is true, only timescale is so big that it's difficult to notice.

[MrsPete]

Where's my money Lebowski?

I don't think senior citizen discounts are about being kind to elderly folks.  Just as a number of places around town offer teacher discounts to me.  Rather, it's a way of bringing in a customer who otherwise might've gone elsewhere.  And it works:  We have two craft stores in town.  One offers me a teacher discount; I always choose that one. 

How do we educate our country in a hurry?  We need to teach people how to stop spending! 2 years on unemployment? huh?  This is insane.

Thing is, I know people who are laid off, and what they hear is, "We'll give you unemployment for two years.  You should start looking for a job about 22 months into this deal." 

I personally know a woman who was ABSOLUTELY THRILLED when she was laid off because she'd just had a baby, and she saw it as a way to stay home with the baby for two years and still have a paycheck.  I don't think this thought process is all that uncommon. 

[No Name Guy]

I don't think senior citizen discounts are about being kind to elderly folks.  Just as a number of places around town offer teacher discounts to me.  Rather, it's a way of bringing in a customer who otherwise might've gone elsewhere.  And it works:  We have two craft stores in town.  One offers me a teacher discount; I always choose that one. 

How do we educate our country in a hurry?  We need to teach people how to stop spending! 2 years on unemployment? huh?  This is insane.

Thing is, I know people who are laid off, and what they hear is, "We'll give you unemployment for two years.  You should start looking for a job about 22 months into this deal." 

I personally know a woman who was ABSOLUTELY THRILLED when she was laid off because she'd just had a baby, and she saw it as a way to stay home with the baby for two years and still have a paycheck.  I don't think this thought process is all that uncommon. 

Don't get me started on unemployment.  Yet another example of moral hazard and people naturally following incentives that cause poor, self destrctive behavior.  You both illustrate the point exactly.

Unemployment insurance should be eliminated - personal savings are unemployment insurance.

[Albert]

Social safety net is a great thing to have not only for those currently unemployed, but also for those who have a stable job. Like most people here I have significant savings, but nevertheless I feel more at peace knowing that if all plans go to hell I'm at least guaranteed unemployment benefits up to 18 months at 80% of my salary. :)

[belgiandude]

Social safety net is a great thing to have not only for those currently unemployed, but also for those who have a stable job. Like most people here I have significant savings, but nevertheless I feel more at peace knowing that if all plans go to hell I'm at least guaranteed unemployment benefits up to 18 months at 80% of my salary. :)

In my country you can collect them for life... They are only 60% of your gross salary (up to a certain maximum), go down over time, but you do qualify for other social benefits...
Needless to say that some people rather stay unemployed.

I'd prefer to not get uneployment benefits, but pay less tax and save myself for rainy days. Our effective tax rate is the highest of Europe (world?).

[Albert]

We have low taxes here already... There is a solid evidence that strong social safety net leads to lower rates of violent crime and much lower incarceration rates. That's something worth paying some money for. Savings are good and should be encouraged, but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that everybody will be able and willing to save adequate amounts of money. No such society has ever existed and probably never will...

[Hunny156]

I never understood the logic of UI being an opportunity to coast for a while.  There is a cap on what you can get weekly, and it's less than $400/week.  Both my hubby & I had periods where we lost our jobs, and we were  applying to new jobs when we saw the writing on the wall!  The next step for both of us was to get temp work.  Only when that avenue dried up, did we suck it up and go for UI.

In my line of work, I actually was making slightly more as a temp than the job I was downsized from, and I milked that for a solid year while trying to secure a permanent job.  When the temp market dried up, it SUCKED to take such a pay cut on UI!  Don't get me wrong, I was grateful to get something to help out, but I never looked at it as a free ride of any sort.  I wanted off that ride, ASAP.

Hubby's skills were not suitable for temp work, so he had to get on UI pretty quickly.  He was off just as quickly, b/c keeping the benefits was a major PITA.  Even though you heard of people being on UI for years, it really does depend on when you sign up for benefits, and every time we tried to figure out how much longer he would get UI, we'd get a different answer.  Even the nice folks at UI couldn't really tell us.  Hubby strung together a few dead end jobs until something better came along.  Yeah, he had to physically work for that small amount of cash (similar $$ as UI), but it beat having to deal w/the uncertainty of UI!

[JennieOG]

I am finding that a lot of people are getting loans and going to school to basically delay reality because they have no idea what the hell else to do.  I think a lot of people just don't have the capacity to envision the long-term.  This is probably why I am the only person I know with no debt and a funded retirement, even though I am low income.  I do wonder though if it's going to be all for naught someday though, because if none of my neighbors are saving for retirement am I just going to get taxed to death at retirement to pay for them? 

[iris lily]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/-i-m-never-going-to-be-able-to-retire--134736593.html?vp=1

At age 58 and less than a decade away from retirement, Nancie Eichengreen, found herself having to start over from scratch.

It was 2012 and she had been laid off for the second time in 10 years from her job as a legal secretary. She spent a few years collecting unemployment benefits and dipping into her meager 401(k) savings to fill in the gaps.

Two years ago, she decided to start over completely, going back to school for a Masters degree in social work at Yeshiva University in New York. Today, Eichengreen now 60, is living off of student loans and says it’s unlikely that she’ll be able to pay off her $200,000 student debt, which includes what she borrowed for her first Masters studies in broadcast management.

“I don’t think social workers make much money so I’ll probably be dead before I pay that off,” she said.

Really.....so you KNOW social workers don't make much, yet you're going in hock to the tune of 200k (combined with your last useless masters?) for it?  The sad, foolish desperation, it burns!

58 - meager 401k savings.  Going back for a 2nd masters (so what did you make of the first one, being a legal secretary with a masters in broadcast management). 

Her situation is unfortunate but not unique. Thirty-four percent of workers have nothing set aside for retirement, according to the U.S. Social Security Administration. A study by the National Institute on Retirement Security found 40 percent of workers 55-65 years old do not own assets in a retirement account.

Holy shit Batman.....shakes head in a combination of pity and anger, since this person, Ms. Eichengreen, and the others like her, are nothing but willful-out-of-ignorance sponges on a society that refuses to metaphorically face punch them, tell them to suck it up and just work at Wally world or McBurger Flipper.  And talk about an example of moral hazard - who in their right mind, risking their hard earned capital at actual risk of loss, would willingly lend this lady 200k for a FUCKING SOCIAL WORK degree at her age?  I'll tell you.  No one.....except if they know the taxpayer have their back and can't lose, that's who.....or a whiny politician or bureaucrat who is used to pissing away other peoples money that was taken at the point of a gun.  [end rant]

wow, that was severe.

And I completely concur.  :)

[frugalecon]

I am finding that a lot of people are getting loans and going to school to basically delay reality because they have no idea what the hell else to do.  I think a lot of people just don't have the capacity to envision the long-term.  This is probably why I am the only person I know with no debt and a funded retirement, even though I am low income.  I do wonder though if it's going to be all for naught someday though, because if none of my neighbors are saving for retirement am I just going to get taxed to death at retirement to pay for them?

I think the most likely expansion of tax will be something hidden, like a VAT tax. It will be more painful for the spendier among us, assuming it is structured to fall more heavily on luxury goods than on basic stuff. So even if it is a drag, it will be easier for Mustachians to bear.

[BlueMR2]

I think the most likely expansion of tax will be something hidden, like a VAT tax. It will be more painful for the spendier among us, assuming it is structured to fall more heavily on luxury goods than on basic stuff. So even if it is a drag, it will be easier for Mustachians to bear.

That's my thought too.  Not terribly concerned about it.

Back on the original story, this is what happens when people believe the "you can be anything you want" lie.  No, you can't.  A select few can get what they want through a combination of hard work, planning, location, connections, and just plain dumb luck.  The rest can't.  If you don't have all of those attributes, trying to do what you want is likely to just run you into the poor house.

[Daleth]

I am very concerned for the future of this country.  So many people are NOT saving anything for retirement.  Who is going to help them make it??  All of us.  We are.  These people will be on Medicaid, food stamps, and government housing which we will all pay for.

A crisis is coming due to these morons who spend every penny and more instead of investing in their futures.

By definition they're already on Medicare (not Medicaid) when they retire--everyone is, unless they're in the extreme minority of people who have employer-provided healthcare that lasts their entire lives (or they have a younger spouse who still has employer-provided insurance for them both). So their failure to save has no impact on us, the taxpayers, in that regard.

[Daleth]

We have low taxes here already... There is a solid evidence that strong social safety net leads to lower rates of violent crime and much lower incarceration rates. That's something worth paying some money for. Savings are good and should be encouraged, but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that everybody will be able and willing to save adequate amounts of money. No such society has ever existed and probably never will...

I completely agree. You live in a phenomenal country... I have friends there (Swiss and German) and having visited them, I know first hand how great their quality of life is, and how safe the country is.

[loki]

We have low taxes here already... There is a solid evidence that strong social safety net leads to lower rates of violent crime and much lower incarceration rates. That's something worth paying some money for. Savings are good and should be encouraged, but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking that everybody will be able and willing to save adequate amounts of money. No such society has ever existed and probably never will...

Completely agree.

[Hunny156]

I am very concerned for the future of this country.  So many people are NOT saving anything for retirement.  Who is going to help them make it??  All of us.  We are.  These people will be on Medicaid, food stamps, and government housing which we will all pay for.

A crisis is coming due to these morons who spend every penny and more instead of investing in their futures.

By definition they're already on Medicare (not Medicaid) when they retire--everyone is, unless they're in the extreme minority of people who have employer-provided healthcare that lasts their entire lives (or they have a younger spouse who still has employer-provided insurance for them both). So their failure to save has no impact on us, the taxpayers, in that regard.

This may be more of a question than anything else.  I wonder how many of these people who presume they'll retire on Social Security, don't realize that Medicare is not free, and it will be deducted from the SSA benefits?  Then if they want a more complete insurance package, they'll need a script plan and a medigap policy.  My Mom has nearly $200/mo deducted from her SSA, and then pays an additional $45 for her prescription plan, and about $200/mo for a medigap plan.  That leaves about $755 to "live" on.

[Ayanka]

Belgiandude:

In my country you can collect them for life... They are only 60% of your gross salary (up to a certain maximum), go down over time, but you do qualify for other social benefits...
Needless to say that some people rather stay unemployed.

I'd prefer to not get uneployment benefits, but pay less tax and save myself for rainy days. Our effective tax rate is the highest of Europe (world?).

The tax rate is not so easy. We pay a lot of taxes, however this is split in RSZ  and income taxes. The RSZ is 13%, and gets divided in 3 roughly big groups: retirement pension, unemployment and childcare. Childcare is under discussion, but at this moment it rewards you for having kids. The tax is calculated after the RSZ and can run from 20% till... depending on scale. Count on 50% for RSZ and tax for the higher scales.

Plus I think it is very cool to meet someone Belgian at some frugality board :).