Yet another hostile RE reaction

[HBFI]

I know that similar threads have been posted in the past on this topic , so apologies in advance for any duplication, but I had one of those periodic hostile references to RE in a social setting  RE a couple nights ago with someone around my age (mid 30’s).  I was traveling in the LA area for work and visited a friend and her boyfriend.  After grabbing a dinner of Tuesday Tacos ($1-3 each) at a nearby place we headed back to their house for a few drinks.  As the night went on, at one point the concept of quitting work came up at my friend’s reference.  Now, I leave out any discussion of FIRE form these types of conversations, but I chimed in support of RE.

Her boyfriend, who is a good guy but can have a bit of a domineering personality, had a mini-explosion along the lines of “I don’t know why the hell anyone would ever want to do that.  I plan to work my entire life.  What the hell are you gonna do if you aren’t working?” 

Now he was clearly agitated and I really didn’t care what his perspective on the matter is, nor did I intend to get into a debate (pissing match) with him.  But my friend, his girlfriend, has a basic knowledge of my intentions to leave work in coming years.  While I don’t know for sure that she commented to him about it before, I suspect that she has as we’ve been good friends for decades (100% platonic; we live in different cities but kept in touch over the years).  I should note that I don’t know him as well, having only actually hung out a handful of times over the last few years.  So I felt his response was a bit knee-jerk hostile towards me and I felt compelled to offer at least some response.  Given I don’t know him and it’s her SO, I wanted to be diplomatic.

So, in my quasi-inebriated state of mind I countered: “If my life has become so uninteresting that the only thing worth doing is to spend my time in some crappy office, surrounded by people I wouldn’t otherwise hang out with, and staring at computer doing things I don’t enjoy, then somewhere along the line I have done something terribly wrong.”

I’ve never tried that one before.  In the past, anytime I’ve found myself having the FIRE pissing match debate, it’s usually gotten heated.  But this was a different reaction.  He was immediately disarmed and just kind of sat back pondering the answer.  I’m not sure, but I think by framing it as a reflection on my own life and breaking down the crappiness involved with working in my own office job seemed to have struck a cord.  And this guy doesn’t even work in an office.  But he understands nevertheless.  I suspect that I unintentionally caused a bit of self-reflection.  It was kind of a priceless moment for me.  Despite the intent of approaching diplomatically I was still expecting slings and arrows, but only got dumfounded silence.
 
Just thought I’d share in case the next time someone finds themselves in a similar situation and wants to give it a try.  I doubt it’ll work in most cases, but just another counter to add to the arsenal.  Never know when you’re going to casually come across a hater after a few brews and otherwise pleasant conversation ;)

[PetiteMouche]

That was a really good answer, actually.

[CupcakeGuru]

I love your answer. I just stopped talking about RE unless I really know the person well and think they may be receptive to the conversation.

[PDXTabs]

I tell people that I would still write software, but I would choose what software to write and where to write it. Also, that the location would probably be on a beach, most likely in southern Europe.

EDIT - They are usually fine once I paint a picture for them.

[ysette9]

That was an interesting response and I am a little surprised that it went down as well as it did. I think they key was likely that you kept it inward-looking, rather than making it about the other person. "I would have failed", not "you must have a suck-y life if you have nothing interesting outside of work".

I'm glad it went down all right. I was in a conversation at work this morning with a woman who said she never wanted to quit working because Alzheimer's runs in her family, and she has seen declines rapidly take place once you are no longer engaging your brain in a meaningful way. I was at least able to direct the conversation in the direction that there are other engaging things that one could do outside of work, and that it is important to retire TO something rather than just sit on your butt.

Personally if I had a family history of losing my faculties at a relatively young age, I would be that much more focused on FIRE, not the other way around. To each their own.

[HBFI]

That was an interesting response and I am a little surprised that it went down as well as it did. I think they key was likely that you kept it inward-looking, rather than making it about the other person. "I would have failed", not "you must have a suck-y life if you have nothing interesting outside of work".

I'm glad it went down all right. I was in a conversation at work this morning with a woman who said she never wanted to quit working because Alzheimer's runs in her family, and she has seen declines rapidly take place once you are no longer engaging your brain in a meaningful way. I was at least able to direct the conversation in the direction that there are other engaging things that one could do outside of work, and that it is important to retire TO something rather than just sit on your butt.

Personally if I had a family history of losing my faculties at a relatively young age, I would be that much more focused on FIRE, not the other way around. To each their own.

Agreed that using "I" versus "you" was key to the reaction.  I did my best to keep it totally inward looking and self-criticizing while maintaining a calm tone.  And 100% agree on your comment re: FIRE & faculty retention.  My grandfather had Alzheimer's so I've experienced it close hand.  I don't think sitting in an office is going to prevent that.  I don't know if FIRE will either, but one of those two offers a far more enriched quality of life IMO.  But as you say, to each their own.

[clarkfan1979]

I don't really try to preach FI or early retirement. I just try to have as much fun as possible. When people start complaining about their jobs, I just don't have anything to add. My wife and I don't work that much. Some people have asked how we afford our lifestyle. However, most people are not interested buying a used car.

I tried to express my proud car purchase of $2,500 at a social event once. I got shot down by pretty much everyone.

[VolcanicArts]

I don't really try to preach FI or early retirement. I just try to have as much fun as possible. When people start complaining about their jobs, I just don't have anything to add. My wife and I don't work that much. Some people have asked how we afford our lifestyle. However, most people are not interested buying a used car.

I tried to express my proud car purchase of $2,500 at a social event once. I got shot down by pretty much everyone.

Same boat here, I gave up teaching rational financial thinking to others years ago. It is a lost cause and I find many people are content being dumbed down, wasting tons of money, and fitting into the status quo. I find that anytime I explain the benefits of RE or FI, that many are jealous and I sense resentment. Best to just keep your mouth closed when these topics come up and work on enjoying your life, that's what I do.

[Lagom]

I tell people that I would still write software, but I would choose what software to write and where to write it. Also, that the location would probably be on a beach, most likely in southern Europe.

EDIT - They are usually fine once I paint a picture for them.

Agreed. Like in most things, self-confidence and specificity (with regards to your plans) almost always diffuses skepticism in my own experience. It's just a variation on the whole "internet retirement police" idea. These negative push-backs are generally from people who think retirement means watching TV and/or playing golf all day every day. Among other things, in retirement I plan to use some of my professional skills to work on projects that are not likely money makers but are personally interesting/satisfying to me and could even have positive societal impact (e.g. volunteering/pro-bono consulting). When I talk excitedly about some of my ideas literally everyone with whom this has come up has been supportive. Even if you plan to do something unrelated to your career (say carpentry), detailing your passion and ideas still achieves the same end. I will grant that if your passion is sailing the world and scuba-diving, that might be more difficult for some people to grok.

All I know is that while some people I have encountered were skeptical about the math behind ER, they all still agreed in theory that if money was no object, what I plan to do would result in a productive and satisfying lifestyle. I also plan to spend a lot of time watching TV, playing video games, and going on hikes (a much cheaper and equally satisfying activity to golfing!), but going on about those sorts of things is much more likely to elicit a negative reaction.

[joonifloofeefloo]

That was beautiful indeed :)

[WhiteTrashCash]

When people get incredulous about FIRE, I try to stick to the way that Ed Begley Jr. talks about environmental issues with angry detractors. He never gets angry in response. He acknowledges their point of view and then explains the benefits of his lifestyle. He isn't judgmental and he doesn't insult the person he's talking with and as a result of that, he often wins the person over to his point of view or at least remains civil and friendly with them.

In the future, you could try talking about the freedom that comes from FIRE. You could mention how being FI allows a person to explore their interests and start their own businesses. If the person you are talking with is an artist of some type, you could mention how being FIRE would remove the pressure to compromise their art for financial gain, which reduces stress.

Remember, RE doesn't mean sitting around doing nothing all day. It's about being free to be yourself. That's appealing to a lot of people.

[HBFI]

Yeah I've definitely had better responses in other conversations by expanding the discussion to post-FIRE passions and pursuits.  Once I start checking through things I'd like to do, most unlikely to earn a cent, the conversations shifts towards those activities.

In the conversation I mentioned I wasn't even planning on discussing the topic.  It was my friend who touched on quitting working and he reacted, so I just kind of responded.  The conversation transitioned to a new topic after a brief silence.  I think had it continued that's where I would have taken things.  I could ramble on about post-FIRE activities endlessly if given the soapbox, but I try to keep myself in check unless someone seems genuinely curious.  It's too exhausting arguing with people :)

[Shiernian]

I wasn't there, but I think this was partly because of jealousy on the part of the guy.
But it's also true some people just like to spend more money and work longer. Let them work and we can relax early or enjoy our free time! :-)

[Infraredhead]

We just announced to our friends that we are retiring and experienced the same reaction and gave a similarly crafted reply.  I enjoyed watching the wheels spinning afterwards...

[Laura33]

Why do I have the distinct impression that your friend set you up to make progress on her boyfriend's resistance to RE?  So I'd say congratulations are in order.  ;-)

[Travis]

I'm glad the conversation went as well as it did.  As I read through I saw some keywords that usually spell disaster.  "In my inebriated state.." I thought he was going to go off on you since alcohol-aided conversations can get dicey as the speaker and receiver.  I know quite a few folks who even if you made the context about you, they'd still take serious offense to what you said believing you were still making a judgement call on their lives. 

[partgypsy]

I have to say before I starting reading this and related websites, I would have had a similar reaction as that guy to you (even if just inward). Because I would have translated retiring early = just not wanting to work=lazy/having no aspirations.
 
I'm not really planning to retire early (except in comparision to workaholic family members) but plan to work until 62 and i'm perfectly happy with that, in part because I like the people I work with and it provides social and intellectual stimulation. But I also want to save such that I  become financially independent. NOT because i'm going to sit around the house watching TV on a big screen, because I can then choose what projects I want to work on, even if they are most likely not financially rewarding but rewarding in other ways.

I don't know your motivations for retiring early, but maybe that would be a way of framing it as well. That you want to be financially independent, so you are not tied to a job that is not rewarding in other ways.

[HBFI]

Laura33 - Haha, that would be cool if so.

Travis - Fortunately we were only 'quasi-inebriated' after a few drinks ;)  And I agree that it's a tough topic with most people.  Unfortunately many people outside this community are hostile to the concept for a whole host of reasons.  Most of the time I wouldn't have responded, but I felt put on the spot.  Maybe I should have shrugged it off and ignored the negativity, but I didn't. Sometimes I falter on the 'walking on egg shells' where I'm careful not to discuss my own plans/path because someone else might interpret that negatively w/r/t their own path/choices...Though I can't say I've ever been upset by someone who said they love their jobs and want to work 'forever'.

partgypsy - I think FI without RE is also a cool goal. If I enjoyed my day-job more I might consider it.  But I don't and have other plans (none thus far involving income generation but anything is possible).  Totally agree that most people view RE negatively and assume it means sitting in front of a TV all day.  An ill-conceived stereotype IMO but where many folks default to.  Perhaps he took that perspective.  I can't say for sure, since the response was just a generally dismissive statement.  There weren't any questions as to what her or I would do with excessive time, why would that be an interesting alternative path, or any inquiries at all.

Oh, I realize that FIRE is controversial with many outside these forums and, as such, the onus resides with us to either not say anything or defend ourselves with extensive explanations to counter preconceived notions such as not working = lazy.  But in that moment I didn't have my talking points all mentally organized and ready for a campaign of changing hearts and minds.  I just wanted to enjoy my IPA and what was otherwise a night of good conversation.  I just raised this story since so many go through something similar.  I've found that hearing others experiences can be helpful in dealing with negative social reactions, in the event such situation arises.

And btw, if anyone puts themselves in the position of being able to RE and chooses to sit in front of TV all day, more power to them.  Not my personal path in life, but also not my place to judge.

[Cassie]

It sounds like your answer really resonated with him and stopped any attacks that might have been coming. That is great!

[mikefixac]

Congratulations. I wish I could think that quickly even when sober.

Also, you didn't speak down to this person. I'd find it difficult not to be a bit condescending.

[Fishindude]

Being on a different financial path than others is no reason to lose a friendship.  Discussion of finances can be really personal and could be hurtful.
Only a very small percentage of people will be able to retire comfortable, or retire early. 

[Greenback Reproduction Specialist]

well, I had a lengthy well thought out response... But poof, its gone for some reason...

Anyway the gist of it was "That was a really good response", its tough to communicate to people in a way that gets them to understand your point of view about RE that doesn't seem totally nuts.

[Mika M]

Awesome response! Definitely sums it up for my situation, too.

Definitely agree about the Alzheimer's/age-related decline. Some of the new techy processes I've had to learn in my current job I feel have indeed been good workouts for my brain. But, stuck at a desk staring at computer screens all day almost every day is terrible for your health. Not getting out to quiet natural spaces enough is also bad for your health.

I have had to learn some intensely techy processes for my current job that admittedly have indeed been good workouts for my arty left brain... But I'm still convinced that the sooner I can move out west to a small/medium-sized city and more easily do stuff that's always just out of reach in my current situation, like get out to rigorous mountainy hikes as often as I dream about it, and focus on art or music whenever the mood strikes, the better it'll be for preventative health as I get older...