WSJ article: These Professionals Aren’t Retired, They Just Have Zero to Prove

[reeshau]

Are the Retirement Police officially on notice?  While the stories are still fancypants, it was still interesting to read about the "post-achievement" people walking away from all-encompassing jobs and pursuing passions that weren't about money.  I have no idea how they consider themselves vs. FIRE, but I think all alternatives to "work hard until you can't" are welcome.

[Ron Scott]

Interesting side piece.

The average person who retires before 62 or so likely never puts a label on it. And the WSJ group seems to consider retiring on $5m to be “frugal”, so I doubt they’d feel like they belonged in this forum.

People do what they do and don’t need a clique for each aspect of their lives or life decisions.

[2sk22]

Professional acquaintances sometimes refer to him as a legend because he jumped off the corporate ladder in a way that most people only dream about.

Here’s the thing about getting to post-achievement status: You have to earn it by doing something impressive first.

These quotes in particular stood out. There is a weird pervasive belief in tech that it's impossible to FATFire on the basis of W2 income. The only acceptable ways to retire early is to cash out in either an IPO or an acquisition.

A couple of people I worked with asked me directly how I was able to retire early (in my 50s, not all that early TBH). They were astonished when I told them I invested steadily in index funds. Those people are still working looking for a big payday.

[Metalcat]

I deeply relate to this.

I did the BIG career and left. I didn't leave by choice, I became disabled, but before that I had already left a VERY BIG job and radically down shifted to a more meaningful, part time role that I enjoyed much, much more.

I did the BIG accomplishment thing, got my finances in a place where I could pivot, and then spent the rest of my career truly enjoying myself. Like the article described, I too became a "mysterious legend" for the moves I pulled and the way I worked on my own terms and actually enjoyed myself in a sea of miserable colleagues.

Then I had to leave that career altogether due to profound disability, and now I'm back in a whole new profession, kicking ass on my own terms, having a great time. Feeling ZERO pressure to achieve according to anyone else's metrics.

It is very freeing to feel like you did it, you accomplished big, and really just don't need to ever wonder "what if?"

It's also VERY freeing to have done the BIG THING, to leave it, and to quickly realize that it was never as important as it felt at the time.

I've often said this here, but no matter how massive your accomplishments, after a few years they're essentially the equivalent of the highschool quarterback who won the "big game." It doesn't matter and no one cares about what you used to do.

I think that's the biggest win for me. Being post-achievement has relegated all of that stuff that felt so important at the time to just "shit I used to do." It only matters insofar as I decide it matters.

I've since grown to care about my relationship with my dog more than my career accomplishments. It has more meaning to me. I adopt rescue dogs and invest enormous effort into rehabbing them into happy, healthy family members who thrive after having been literally tortured in puppy mills.

I get to decide that that is a bigger source of pride for me than anything I ever did professionally. I'm very proud of my professional accomplishments, especially those that made a difference in vulnerable people's lives. But again, I get to decide what matters, what's important, not some external metric of "success" according to a toxic system that I unsubscribed from long ago.

And that's really the thing. Having achieved very big things within our toxic system makes it easier for some of us former achievement junkies to pull back the curtain and see the worthless forces behind the praise and accolades, how they are specifically designed to push us towards priorities that are fundamentally unhealthy.

I did BIG THINGS and it cost me my health and as soon as I was no longer able to do BIG THINGS, my value within that system disappeared.

I sacrificed a lot of my most important assets for grades, parchments, medals, titles, accolades, praise, admiration, money, professional reputation and envy, etc, etc.

And it wasn't worth it. None of those things mattered nearly as much as I was told that they mattered. Not nearly as much as I was conditioned to care about them.

I've just spent the last few years in grad school where I couldn't care less about my grades. I unsubscribed from that system as a legitimate measure of my value a long time ago. I do happen to have a 4.0, but not because I strive for good grades. I get good grades because I deeply enjoy the process of learning and writing interesting papers.

I don't bother proof reading them though, and my APA is pretty rusty, so I consistently lose marks on easily preventable formatting errors. Sometimes I lose a lot of marks if the instructor is a stickler. But I don't enjoy proof reading and looking up formatting standards, so I just write, deeply enjoy the process, and submit my rough draft as-is. In my 14th year of university, I feel zero need to prove myself to faculty, I have a doctorate too, lol. If I *like* the faculty member, then I'll at least pay attention to their feedback.

I like getting good grades because it means I don't have to put in any effort that I don't want to to improve my performance to ensure I don't fail. A pass is 70% and my program doesn't give out 90+ grades, so if I weren't performing in the top quartile of students, I would be too close to failing to be as cavalier as I am.

That would matter to me because that would have negative impact on me. But as long as my grades are high enough for me to be lazy and work on my own terms, I'm happy as a clam. I often don't even read the assignment instructions fully, I just write what I think is relevant to the learning I'm supposed to be doing. I figure that if I demonstrate excellent, relevant learning, then I've done my job, even if I broke a bunch of rules along the way.

Sometimes, if I intend to break A LOT of rules, I'll ask for permission in advance, but only if I think I'll be at risk of failing if I don't. I always get permission because I make a good pitch as to why it's beneficial for my personal learning objectives.

The point is, I'm essentially immune to the pressure of grad school. This is a master's program, I've already done a doctoral program that was orders of magnitude harder.

I have nothing to prove, I just want to learn, which I LOVE doing. I primarily started this (online) program for something to do while I was stuck in bed recovering from a broken femur.

Now it's lead to fun, deeply meaningful work that I'm also doing on my own terms and having a blast. But I won't touch with a 10 foot pole any job opportunity that won't allow me near-total autonomy to do this shit my own way.

I don't care what the incentives and rewards are, I have unsubscribed from any of those that don't actively add to my overall quality of life.

It can't harm my self-care, it can't harm my time and energy to work with my dog, it can't harm my presence and investment in my marriage. Doing meaningful, profitable, satisfying work is fun and all, but it's relegated to a priority level that contributes to my overall wellness, never, ever detracts from it.

Achievement is ONLY as valuable as I decide it is, and I long ago decided that it's only value is how much it improves everything else that matters to me more.

Nothing that makes me less healthy and less happy will ever be important to me ever again.

[reeshau]

I like getting good grades because it means I don't have to put in any effort that I don't want to to improve my performance to ensure I don't fail. A pass is 70% and my program doesn't give out 90+ grades, so if I weren't performing in the top quartile of students, I would be too close to failing to be as cavalier as I am.

A guy I worked with, a purchasing manager, was getting his MBA.  He used to finish 70% of his test, because that was what was needed for a passing grade and reimbursement from our company.  The profs would ask him why, and he would explain the minimum requirement.  Then, he would leave the classroom and get on to other things.  The guy gave zero fucks; he did what he wanted to do.  He was also hilarious.  Some people called him arrogant, but he just would not buy into rituals, norms, or general bs.  I was glad to know him relatively early in my career.

[bacchi]

These quotes in particular stood out. There is a weird pervasive belief in tech that it's impossible to FATFire on the basis of W2 income. The only acceptable ways to retire early is to cash out in either an IPO or an acquisition.

Which is surprising considering that even a Senior IC can make very good scratch. Get promoted to Staff and, with some stock tailwinds, it seems impossible to not get enough for FatFIRE rapidly.

A couple of people I worked with asked me directly how I was able to retire early (in my 50s, not all that early TBH). They were astonished when I told them I invested steadily in index funds. Those people are still working looking for a big payday.

Waiting for that IPO press release...ah, those were the days.

[Metalcat]

I like getting good grades because it means I don't have to put in any effort that I don't want to to improve my performance to ensure I don't fail. A pass is 70% and my program doesn't give out 90+ grades, so if I weren't performing in the top quartile of students, I would be too close to failing to be as cavalier as I am.

A guy I worked, a purchasing manager, with was getting his MBA.  He used to finish 70% of his test, because that was what was needed for a passing grade and reimbursement from our company.  The profs would ask him why, and he would explain the minimum requirement.  Then, he would leave the classroom and get on to other things.  The guy gave zero fucks; he did what he wanted to do.  He was also hilarious.  Some people called him arrogant, but he just would not buy into rituals, norms, or general bs.  I was glad to know him relatively early in my career.

Exactly!

I set my personal pass grade 10 points above the actually pass grade because in my program we're graded on subjective papers, not objective tests, so if I'm consistently just above failing, a single harsh marker or someone who doesn't like me could result in failing a course, and any failure adds 4 months to my timelines to graduate.

But yeah, a single percent above my personal pass score of 80% indicates that I put more effort in than I needed to. Which is fine as long as I enjoyed and gained from the effort. Not if I got those extra percent by jumping through performance hoops that I don't care about.

And yes, I'm frequently seen as arrogant because I don't care about impressing my faculty.

Just this morning my DH and I were reflecting on a recent event where a person who we know as an epic people pleaser was being celebrated. They were the center of major attention and being praised left, right, and center for how incredible they are.

The problem was that both DH and I know that this person secretly hates their job, their marriage is secretly toxic, and they live with a constant sense of hollowness that they have no idea how to escape.

By every external metric, they're absolutely killing it...but according to who? The event was largely attended by narcissists who value this person because they're a people pleaser who always gives them what they want.

This is someone who, in my opinion, has what it takes to live a magnificent life, but I watched them soak in the glow of external validation for everything about them that holds them back from truly being happy.

I happen to be currently achieving something of substantial meaning and value myself right now and whining in my own journal that I have very few people to share my pride with.

But seeing someone celebrated for things that are very tangibly harming them and their well being reminded me that our systems aren't set up to celebrate true accomplishments of happiness and well being. They're designed to celebrate engagement in toxic priorities.

There's a journal that's titled after something I like to say, which is that authentic pursuit of health and happiness is actually an epic act of rebellion.

To be truly happy and healthy actually requires the rejection of a lot of metrics of success to which we've been condition to aspire to.

Mustachianism is one of the most obvious manifestations of this. We as a community are rebels who proudly reject the toxic social expectation of achieving social value through consumerism.

But that kind of unsubscribing from external metrics of self-worth can go much deeper.

[2sk22]

These quotes in particular stood out. There is a weird pervasive belief in tech that it's impossible to FATFire on the basis of W2 income. The only acceptable ways to retire early is to cash out in either an IPO or an acquisition.

Which is surprising considering that even a Senior IC can make very good scratch. Get promoted to Staff and, with some stock tailwinds, it seems impossible to not get enough for FatFIRE rapidly.

Exactly - even in VHCOL areas, you can save a lot. I have worked with a lot of these guys over the years - they do make a lot but they spend a lot too.

[jrhampt]

This is me. Work 30 hrs per week on project that I like with people I enjoy. Take massive vacations and WFH 70 pct, sometimes from a great vacation spot. I make an ungodly amount of money as is (and now over the top FI) so absolutely do not give a fuck about status, promotions, even recognition. I am so over that. Fly as low as possible, and the day the hassle becomes not worth the corporate BS I hand in my wings (actually will trigger them to fire me to get the severance)
 
Really, my work life is a victory lap these days

Curious, what is your strategy to get severance?  You don't get severance if you are fired, correct?

[Metalcat]

This is me. Work 30 hrs per week on project that I like with people I enjoy. Take massive vacations and WFH 70 pct, sometimes from a great vacation spot. I make an ungodly amount of money as is (and now over the top FI) so absolutely do not give a fuck about status, promotions, even recognition. I am so over that. Fly as low as possible, and the day the hassle becomes not worth the corporate BS I hand in my wings (actually will trigger them to fire me to get the severance)
 
Really, my work life is a victory lap these days

That's awesome.

We're only very leanFI, I had to medically retire from my last career, and my spouse still works full time. So while I really don't *have to* work, the income isn't yet meaningless for us.

But I chose my new career specifically for near-total autonomy. There was no way I was ever going to tolerate nonsense for money that we can easily do without.

My spouse LOVES their work, but because I'll now be bringing in 6 figures working part time, they're seriously eyeing jumping ship and going into part time consulting instead.

I don't think either of us will ever stop working altogether. If left to our own devices, we tend to engage in a lot of self study related to the fields we're passionate about, and these topics make up the subject of many hours of our conversations.

Being really well compensated for doing what you enjoy is A LOT of fun.

[Metalcat]

This is me. Work 30 hrs per week on project that I like with people I enjoy. Take massive vacations and WFH 70 pct, sometimes from a great vacation spot. I make an ungodly amount of money as is (and now over the top FI) so absolutely do not give a fuck about status, promotions, even recognition. I am so over that. Fly as low as possible, and the day the hassle becomes not worth the corporate BS I hand in my wings (actually will trigger them to fire me to get the severance)
 
Really, my work life is a victory lap these days

Curious, what is your strategy to get severance?  You don't get severance if you are fired, correct?

Where I live, you don't get severance only if you are fired for cause and firing for cause takes quite a bit of effort on the part of the employer and makes them vulnerable to lawsuits because so much evidence needs to be provided to fire for cause, but the more evidence provided, the more evidence a lawyer has to rip apart in court.

Most employers here terminate with severance whenever at all possible to avoid the risk of litigation. 

[Captain FIRE]

I like getting good grades because it means I don't have to put in any effort that I don't want to to improve my performance to ensure I don't fail. A pass is 70% and my program doesn't give out 90+ grades, so if I weren't performing in the top quartile of students, I would be too close to failing to be as cavalier as I am.

A guy I worked, a purchasing manager, with was getting his MBA.  He used to finish 70% of his test, because that was what was needed for a passing grade and reimbursement from our company.  The profs would ask him why, and he would explain the minimum requirement.  Then, he would leave the classroom and get on to other things.  The guy gave zero fucks; he did what he wanted to do.  He was also hilarious.  Some people called him arrogant, but he just would not buy into rituals, norms, or general bs.  I was glad to know him relatively early in my career.

Exactly!

I set my personal pass grade 10 points above the actually pass grade because in my program we're graded on subjective papers, not objective tests, so if I'm consistently just above failing, a single harsh marker or someone who doesn't like me could result in failing a course, and any failure adds 4 months to my timelines to graduate.

But yeah, a single percent above my personal pass score of 80% indicates that I put more effort in than I needed to. Which is fine as long as I enjoyed and gained from the effort. Not if I got those extra percent by jumping through performance hoops that I don't care about.
[snip]

A former law school classmate did this. I think he was in accounting and he had to take certain test(s). It was pass or fail, and he did the math and figured he just wouldn’t study a few areas and he could still pass, without wasting his time overstudying. His plan worked great…until he realized his current company (who maybe sponsored him for it?) got his detailed test results. He felt it was an bit awkward to have failed the ethics section!


But yeah all law student I knew did this for professional responsibility (ethics) exam. It’s much easier than the bar exam, and you have a second chance to try it without issue if you miss and fail. (One during law school, second time before you’d get bar exam results back). I don’t think you even get the exact score back - the only way you know roughly your score is to apply to o r if the few jurisdictions with a higher score requirement (DC maybe?) to see if you got it. So anyways you generally aim to study just enough to pass as close as possible. Note: the bar exam is different because the consequences of not passing the first time are so painful, and it’s also harder to be sure you’ve done enough to pass.

[Metalcat]

I like getting good grades because it means I don't have to put in any effort that I don't want to to improve my performance to ensure I don't fail. A pass is 70% and my program doesn't give out 90+ grades, so if I weren't performing in the top quartile of students, I would be too close to failing to be as cavalier as I am.

A guy I worked, a purchasing manager, with was getting his MBA.  He used to finish 70% of his test, because that was what was needed for a passing grade and reimbursement from our company.  The profs would ask him why, and he would explain the minimum requirement.  Then, he would leave the classroom and get on to other things.  The guy gave zero fucks; he did what he wanted to do.  He was also hilarious.  Some people called him arrogant, but he just would not buy into rituals, norms, or general bs.  I was glad to know him relatively early in my career.

Exactly!

I set my personal pass grade 10 points above the actually pass grade because in my program we're graded on subjective papers, not objective tests, so if I'm consistently just above failing, a single harsh marker or someone who doesn't like me could result in failing a course, and any failure adds 4 months to my timelines to graduate.

But yeah, a single percent above my personal pass score of 80% indicates that I put more effort in than I needed to. Which is fine as long as I enjoyed and gained from the effort. Not if I got those extra percent by jumping through performance hoops that I don't care about.
[snip]

A former law school classmate did this. I think he was in accounting and he had to take certain test(s). It was pass or fail, and he did the math and figured he just wouldn’t study a few areas and he could still pass, without wasting his time overstudying. His plan worked great…until he realized his current company (who maybe sponsored him for it?) got his detailed test results. He felt it was an bit awkward to have failed the ethics section!


But yeah all law student I knew did this for professional responsibility (ethics) exam. It’s much easier than the bar exam, and you have a second chance to try it without issue if you miss and fail. (One during law school, second time before you’d get bar exam results back). I don’t think you even get the exact score back - the only way you know roughly your score is to apply to o r if the few jurisdictions with a higher score requirement (DC maybe?) to see if you got it. So anyways you generally aim to study just enough to pass as close as possible. Note: the bar exam is different because the consequences of not passing the first time are so painful, and it’s also harder to be sure you’ve done enough to pass.

Exactly, I studied for my board exams so intensely that my system went into inflammation overdrive and while studying a certain type of inflammatory tumour, I actually developed exactly that kind of tumour. It was insane.

But the consequences of failing that exam were unacceptable.

I have another board exam coming up in a year, but it's not a huge deal to fail, it's more for promotion from one licence level to another, which has a minor monetary impact, so I will study heavily for it, but I'm not going to stress my body into growing tumours!

[FINate]

There's nothing new under the sun, this is FIRE by a different name. Which is fine, FIRE has always been misunderstood. Words matter and "retirement" to many means lounging around doing nothing. But that's never what MMM was about, at least not exclusively. Hence the constant objections from the retirement police when someone FIREs to more meaningful work. Perhaps the post-achievement moniker is a better/more helpful description.

This quote resonated with me:

He left his job as a hedge-fund managing director in 2015 and still feels the occasional pang of envy when he considers the riches that former colleagues have accumulated.

I made a career in Tech taking on critically important yet undesirable projects. Once FU money was in place I took strategic risks by volunteering to provide brutally honest feedback for certain execs. Blindspots that were causing problems within their orgs kinda stuff. And it paid off as these folks were the ones handing out equity refreshes :)

This made it tough, however, to slip the golden handcuffs. I stuck around long enough to cash out a good amount, but when I retired a rather large chunk of unvested RSUs vanished. That was ~9 years ago. When I do the math I could have easily afforded a lake-front house in McCall if I didn't FIRE. So yeah, there's a little pang there sometimes.

But I'm so thankful I retired when I did instead of more years of commuting to a soul-sucking job. I got to spend tons of time with my kids in their pre-school and elementary years. We went camping. Did long road trips. Tons of sweet little unplanned moments every week. DW and I go on dates -- biking, museums, skiing -- while the kids are in school. I've been able to use my tech skills for non-profits. Tons of really meaningful important stuff.

Then I got a cancer diagnosis summer 2022. The initial prognosis was 4-6 months. Things are looking a lot better now, yet still a lot of uncertainty, but there's a somewhat reasonable chance that I survive this. Time spent with loved ones is *far* more valuable than a lake house, it's not even close. Very thankful I didn't spend the last 9 years of life focused on making more money. Nothing against those that do, especially if the work is meaningful.

[Metalcat]

There's nothing new under the sun, this is FIRE by a different name. Which is fine, FIRE has always been misunderstood. Words matter and "retirement" to many means lounging around doing nothing. But that's never what MMM was about, at least not exclusively. Hence the constant objections from the retirement police when someone FIREs to more meaningful work. Perhaps the post-achievement moniker is a better/more helpful description.

This quote resonated with me:

He left his job as a hedge-fund managing director in 2015 and still feels the occasional pang of envy when he considers the riches that former colleagues have accumulated.

I made a career in Tech taking on critically important yet undesirable projects. Once FU money was in place I took strategic risks by volunteering to provide brutally honest feedback for certain execs. Blindspots that were causing problems within their orgs kinda stuff. And it paid off as these folks were the ones handing out equity refreshes :)

This made it tough, however, to slip the golden handcuffs. I stuck around long enough to cash out a good amount, but when I retired a rather large chunk of unvested RSUs vanished. That was ~9 years ago. When I do the math I could have easily afforded a lake-front house in McCall if I didn't FIRE. So yeah, there's a little pang there sometimes.

But I'm so thankful I retired when I did instead of more years of commuting to a soul-sucking job. I got to spend tons of time with my kids in their pre-school and elementary years. We went camping. Did long road trips. Tons of sweet little unplanned moments every week. DW and I go on dates -- biking, museums, skiing -- while the kids are in school. I've been able to use my tech skills for non-profits. Tons of really meaningful important stuff.

Then I got a cancer diagnosis summer 2022. The initial prognosis was 4-6 months. Things are looking a lot better now, yet still a lot of uncertainty, but there's a somewhat reasonable chance that I survive this. Time spent with loved ones is *far* more valuable than a lake house, it's not even close. Very thankful I didn't spend the last 9 years of life focused on making more money. Nothing against those that do, especially if the work is meaningful.

So true. The book Being Mortal covers the massive shift in terms of life priorities for folks who are older or experience serious illness.

It really does radically shift what you perceive to be important in life.

[DrinkCoffeeStackMoney]

Interesting side piece.

The average person who retires before 62 or so likely never puts a label on it. And the WSJ group seems to consider retiring on $5m to be “frugal”, so I doubt they’d feel like they belonged in this forum.

People do what they do and don’t need a clique for each aspect of their lives or life decisions.

Anyone who considers $5mm to be a frugal retirement is out of touch with the reality of most of the world. I'll probably only have 1/3 of that when I pull the plug and will want for nothing!

[DrinkCoffeeStackMoney]

This is me. Work 30 hrs per week on project that I like with people I enjoy. Take massive vacations and WFH 70 pct, sometimes from a great vacation spot. I make an ungodly amount of money as is (and now over the top FI) so absolutely do not give a fuck about status, promotions, even recognition. I am so over that. Fly as low as possible, and the day the hassle becomes not worth the corporate BS I hand in my wings (actually will trigger them to fire me to get the severance)
 
Really, my work life is a victory lap these days

That is awesome! Congrats!
My work life became so much more enjoyable when I built a large FU money stash, and stopped caring about climbing the corporate ladder or impressing senior leadership. Today I fly under the radar as much as possible. I very much enjoy what I do but if they fired me tomorrow I could care less. I'd take a couple months off and go do something else.

[Metalcat]

Interesting side piece.

The average person who retires before 62 or so likely never puts a label on it. And the WSJ group seems to consider retiring on $5m to be “frugal”, so I doubt they’d feel like they belonged in this forum.

People do what they do and don’t need a clique for each aspect of their lives or life decisions.

Anyone who considers $5mm to be a frugal retirement is out of touch with the reality of most of the world. I'll probably only have 1/3 of that when I pull the plug and will want for nothing!

Most of my former colleagues consider 5M to be the minimum for retirement. They say things like "I don't know how anyone can live on only 150K/yr."

[farmecologist]

Interesting side piece.

The average person who retires before 62 or so likely never puts a label on it. And the WSJ group seems to consider retiring on $5m to be “frugal”, so I doubt they’d feel like they belonged in this forum.

People do what they do and don’t need a clique for each aspect of their lives or life decisions.

Anyone who considers $5mm to be a frugal retirement is out of touch with the reality of most of the world. I'll probably only have 1/3 of that when I pull the plug and will want for nothing!

Most of my former colleagues consider 5M to be the minimum for retirement. They say things like "I don't know how anyone can live on only 150K/yr."

Many of my older now retired colleagues had this same sentiment...boomer age group "work till you die" types.  Many of them were miserable and wanted to retire, but insisted they didn't have enough.  Quite a few never used all of their vacation days either.  Pretty crazy and very unhealthy "work ethic", but it is common in that age group.  The two work friends I knew personally had well over 5M...and I jokingly gave them crap about it all the time.  They finally retired a couple years ago...and couldn't be happier.

Fortunately, my younger colleagues seem to have a much better idea of work/life balance, which is great!  Many of them are on the road to FIRE as well. 

BTW - reading the comments in the WSJ article is interesting.  Seems some of them are very envious.

[Tass]

This article seems to include the perspective that you are only "allowed" to bow out of the rat race after proving that you COULD have won it, if you wanted to. Seems like that's still giving a lot of power to the expectations of the rat race.

In contrast, many people here recognize that societal metrics of success are empty without necessarily having achieved them first. You don't have to prove yourself to the world before you're allowed to define your own version of success.

[Tass]

BTW - reading the comments in the WSJ article is interesting.  Seems some of them are very envious.

Here's the first one from when I looked:

I think all individuals in the article, while very successful in their jobs, contributed little to the society.   That's where the emptiness is from.  You don't see doctors, scientists, university professors  or other professionals whose jobs help other people day after a day run into the same issues.

In contrast, becoming an academic scientist and professor is the exact metric of success that I've rejected. Almost all the ones I know are unhappy...

ETA: And if this person thinks healthcare professionals aren't burning out, they don't know any!

[2sk22]

This article seems to include the perspective that you are only "allowed" to bow out of the rat race after proving that you COULD have won it, if you wanted to. Seems like that's still giving a lot of power to the expectations of the rat race.

In contrast, many people here recognize that societal metrics of success are empty without necessarily having achieved them first. You don't have to prove yourself to the world before you're allowed to define your own version of success.

Absolute agree and this is in line with what I posted above. I think that my biggest achievement in my career was just remaining employed for twenty nine years and retiring on my volition rather being laid off 😀

[reeshau]

This article seems to include the perspective that you are only "allowed" to bow out of the rat race after proving that you COULD have won it, if you wanted to. Seems like that's still giving a lot of power to the expectations of the rat race.

In contrast, many people here recognize that societal metrics of success are empty without necessarily having achieved them first. You don't have to prove yourself to the world before you're allowed to define your own version of success.

Absolute agree and this is in line with what I posted above. I think that my biggest achievement in my career was just remaining employed for twenty nine years and retiring on my volition rather being laid off 😀

Yeah, this is why I think they are legitimately separate from FIRE.  They have left the cult, but are still drinking the Kool Aid!  Kind of like they don't quite have the whole story yet.

[Metalcat]

This article seems to include the perspective that you are only "allowed" to bow out of the rat race after proving that you COULD have won it, if you wanted to. Seems like that's still giving a lot of power to the expectations of the rat race.

In contrast, many people here recognize that societal metrics of success are empty without necessarily having achieved them first. You don't have to prove yourself to the world before you're allowed to define your own version of success.

I didn't interpret that, I read it more as to feel like when you've achieved massive accomplishments, it feels really easy to not give a shit about what anyone else thinks is an accomplishment.

But yes, the article states it that you "have to" have accomplished great things as per society's metrics to not care about them, and that is just bullshit.

Plenty of folks can get past the BS societal pressure to accomplish BIG THINGS, without feeling like they don't have to. That's just nonsense.

[leevs11]

I ran into this article too. I feel somewhat similar except the "achieve something great" part. I've gone up the corporate ladder a bit and made a good amount of money, but definitely not gotten to the top or had some big event. I think this is where MMM differs from the mainstream a bit.

Sure these folks feel no need to achieve anymore after hitting big milestones and getting rich. But isn't that a normal thing? If you don't quit or take a break after that you're kind of just a workaholic.

I think the idea of MMM is that you work your way up enough to rake in decent cash and invest it all so that you don't have to climb anymore.

[Laura33]

This article seems to include the perspective that you are only "allowed" to bow out of the rat race after proving that you COULD have won it, if you wanted to. Seems like that's still giving a lot of power to the expectations of the rat race.

In contrast, many people here recognize that societal metrics of success are empty without necessarily having achieved them first. You don't have to prove yourself to the world before you're allowed to define your own version of success.

Eh, I read it more as talking to people who think that way, letting them know that there really is an "out."

I think there can be a perception of the FIRE movement as basically self-justifying slackers -- as people who are so lazy they'd give up most material comforts to not have to work, or people who are so independent they can't survive in an office situation and so will do anything to escape.  And that perception doesn't appeal at all to the achiever-types, who work to prove something, or to Do Things, or to show the world XYZ. 

When you're smart and driven, you can grow up with a lot of messages about how far you will go, and that can create pressure to go as far as you can.  The flip side of that, though is the really damaging bit.  That's the part that says if you do not achieve -- if you don't "reach your potential," whatever that is -- that must mean you weren't as smart and worthy as everyone thought.  So if you start off in that kind of environment, and then you take a job in a go-go world, and live in a neighborhood where everyone makes more than the next guy, it is very easy to get sucked into thinking that you have to continue strive for more to prove your own worth and not feel like a failure.

I think that people like this being willing to opt out and be vocal about it is very very helpful to that portion of the populace.  Their example illustrates all of the flaws in that mindset.  They are relatable to that group; really, they're just like them, people with the same drive and need to achieve something in the business world.  And yet they also, at some point, decided that it was ok to opt out -- and they are demonstrably happier and better for that decision and have found other ways to satisfy that need to push themselves. 

I grew up in a family that idolized intellectual achievements (honestly, I felt like becoming a lawyer let them down somewhat, because it was a "trade" instead of some philosophically pure calling).  My mother in particular has never, ever understood why anyone would ever want to retire, and so that's what I was raised to expect.  I am in no way passionate about my work in the way she is -- and yet my primary fear of FIRE is that I will be bored without the constant intellectual challenge my work provides.  I read MMM for years, but I wasn't able to really internalize the message, because a lot of how he wants to live was just not at all relatable for me (I grew up poor and worked my ass off so I would not have to live on $25K ever again).  It took me a long time to really pull out the lessons that were valuable to me, and not throw the whole thing out as simply not applicable.  More stories from a wider variety of people with widely varying interests and goals will do a better job of showing more people that there are real alternatives to the life they have been taught to expect. 

[evanc]

I think the idea of MMM is that you work your way up enough to rake in decent cash and invest it all so that you don't have to climb anymore.

"I'm gonna make a lot of money, then I'm gonna quit this crazy scene..." - Joni Mitchell :)

[Tass]

When you're smart and driven, you can grow up with a lot of messages about how far you will go, and that can create pressure to go as far as you can.  The flip side of that, though is the really damaging bit.  That's the part that says if you do not achieve -- if you don't "reach your potential," whatever that is -- that must mean you weren't as smart and worthy as everyone thought.  So if you start off in that kind of environment, and then you take a job in a go-go world, and live in a neighborhood where everyone makes more than the next guy, it is very easy to get sucked into thinking that you have to continue strive for more to prove your own worth and not feel like a failure.

Yeah, I think I'm having the reaction to it that I am because I largely grew up this way. But rather than achievement helping me realize I could chart my own path, like in the article, it was (relative) failure. If I hadn't been a mediocre grad student--the first time I was mediocre at anything intellectual in my life--I think I might have pursued academia, just because it was the next biggest thing to shoot for.

That sounds like a nightmare to me now, but maybe I wouldn't have hated grad school if I'd been good at it, so perhaps I would have been fine in this hypothetical.

Instead I've had the opportunity to reject success on that path as a measure of my worth, or even of my intelligence. And I don't think this article would have brought me closer to that endpoint if I had read it at 22; I would have focused on the "prove yourself first" angle.

[Laura33]

When you're smart and driven, you can grow up with a lot of messages about how far you will go, and that can create pressure to go as far as you can.  The flip side of that, though is the really damaging bit.  That's the part that says if you do not achieve -- if you don't "reach your potential," whatever that is -- that must mean you weren't as smart and worthy as everyone thought.  So if you start off in that kind of environment, and then you take a job in a go-go world, and live in a neighborhood where everyone makes more than the next guy, it is very easy to get sucked into thinking that you have to continue strive for more to prove your own worth and not feel like a failure.

Yeah, I think I'm having the reaction to it that I am because I largely grew up this way. But rather than achievement helping me realize I could chart my own path, like in the article, it was (relative) failure. If I hadn't been a mediocre grad student--the first time I was mediocre at anything intellectual in my life--I think I might have pursued academia, just because it was the next biggest thing to shoot for.

That sounds like a nightmare to me now, but maybe I wouldn't have hated grad school if I'd been good at it, so perhaps I would have been fine in this hypothetical.

Instead I've had the opportunity to reject success on that path as a measure of my worth, or even of my intelligence. And I don't think this article would have brought me closer to that endpoint if I had read it at 22; I would have focused on the "prove yourself first" angle.

Interesting perspective.  I can totally see myself responding the same way if I had been in that same situation.  I happened to end up in a grad program that I was really good at, which I am 100% confident made me like it much more than if I had struggled, which in turn made the prospect of the big bucks/big pressure lifestyle an option.  And as long as I continued to succeed, I had no reason to really think about the path I was on.  So by the time I had some big life events make me rethink things, I was already pretty deep into a spendy lifestyle + 20 years into that career-expectation version of success.  I had basically built up the entire framework of a life around that lifestyle -- not just material things, but the person I married, the friends I had, etc.  And all that made the option of stepping away entirely seem either infeasible or requiring too much sacrifice. 

I don't think I'd have been open to this idea at all if I hadn't hit some hardships that made me re-think my view of "success" and what I actually needed to be happy.  But when I did hit that spot, it would have been very helpful if I could have looked around and seen more people who were more like me choosing different paths -- would have made it easier to envision myself doing something similar, and thus made it feel more like a "real" option vs. some lottery pipe dream.

[Tass]

Sounds like your experience aligns with mine in that hardships are what helped you see a different perspective--rather than inarguable success like the people profiled.

But I hear you that when you are deep in that worldview, it's helpful to see rejecting the status quo and success going together. The whole difficult part is not seeing that rejection as synonymous with failure.

[Redherring]

This is me. Work 30 hrs per week on project that I like with people I enjoy. Take massive vacations and WFH 70 pct, sometimes from a great vacation spot. I make an ungodly amount of money as is (and now over the top FI) so absolutely do not give a fuck about status, promotions, even recognition. I am so over that. Fly as low as possible, and the day the hassle becomes not worth the corporate BS I hand in my wings (actually will trigger them to fire me to get the severance)
 
Really, my work life is a victory lap these days

Curious, what is your strategy to get severance?  You don't get severance if you are fired, correct?

Where I live, you don't get severance only if you are fired for cause and firing for cause takes quite a bit of effort on the part of the employer and makes them vulnerable to lawsuits because so much evidence needs to be provided to fire for cause, but the more evidence provided, the more evidence a lawyer has to rip apart in court.

Most employers here terminate with severance whenever at all possible to avoid the risk of litigation.

Exactly. If I walk up to my boss and say I am interested in making a deal to transition out, I am 95% pct sure that we can negotiate a quite reasonable package for me to be a good leaver and do a good handover. Something like 3-6 months extra salary and a do a non-compete/ non-solicitation in return. And good vibes on comms, which matters for the organization, they dont like drama on the top execs. Call it severance, call it golden handshake

[Freedomin5]

Interesting side piece.

The average person who retires before 62 or so likely never puts a label on it. And the WSJ group seems to consider retiring on $5m to be “frugal”, so I doubt they’d feel like they belonged in this forum.

People do what they do and don’t need a clique for each aspect of their lives or life decisions.

Anyone who considers $5mm to be a frugal retirement is out of touch with the reality of most of the world. I'll probably only have 1/3 of that when I pull the plug and will want for nothing!

Most of my former colleagues consider 5M to be the minimum for retirement. They say things like "I don't know how anyone can live on only 150K/yr."

Okay, but you're in Canada, so that's really only $3.6M in USD. That's practically poverty level. :P

[roomtempmayo]

My initial thought is that any man who decides to be photographed shirtless for the WSJ has a lot to prove.  It's just not financial.

[Tass]

Idk, surfers are kinda just Like That all the time.

[aloevera1]

I relate a lot to this.

I accomplished a Super Impressive Thing in my early twenties. I was the only person from my social circle (or even extended circle as far as I can see) to ever do Such an Impressive Thing.

Then I hit a wall in motivation. First, I couldn't really find motivation to move on to the Next Impressive Thing. Second, a person very close to me died around that time not even hitting 50. They were an inspiration to me. They also accomplished Impressive Things and saw a great future for me. After their early death, I just couldn't see the point...

I also saw someone who was even a higher achiever than me, he did an Even More Impressive thing. Inside, he was pretty empty. The sacrifice was huge, the relationships around him just dissolved. He couldn't function without the goal that required multiple sacrifices and general misery. Profesionally, he is a rock star though.

So... Where does the path of accomplishments lead?

I still don't have an answer to that question and don't see a point. 10+ years later I don't feel the need to chase accomplishments. I get satisfaction from close relationships, learning new skills, mentoring, building beautiful life, growing a garden, camping...

I sometimes feel like my brain capacity is underutilized. Sure, I still do  a lot of mentally challenging and stimulating work. I also use my brain for non-work pursuits. However, I don't reach PEAK PERFORMANCE that often anymore.

And that's by design.

Just don't really see the point.

[Metalcat]

I relate a lot to this.

I accomplished a Super Impressive Thing in my early twenties. I was the only person from my social circle (or even extended circle as far as I can see) to ever do Such an Impressive Thing.

Then I hit a wall in motivation. First, I couldn't really find motivation to move on to the Next Impressive Thing. Second, a person very close to me died around that time not even hitting 50. They were an inspiration to me. They also accomplished Impressive Things and saw a great future for me. After their early death, I just couldn't see the point...

I also saw someone who was even a higher achiever than me, he did an Even More Impressive thing. Inside, he was pretty empty. The sacrifice was huge, the relationships around him just dissolved. He couldn't function without the goal that required multiple sacrifices and general misery. Profesionally, he is a rock star though.

So... Where does the path of accomplishments lead?

I still don't have an answer to that question and don't see a point. 10+ years later I don't feel the need to chase accomplishments. I get satisfaction from close relationships, learning new skills, mentoring, building beautiful life, growing a garden, camping...

I sometimes feel like my brain capacity is underutilized. Sure, I still do  a lot of mentally challenging and stimulating work. I also use my brain for non-work pursuits. However, I don't reach PEAK PERFORMANCE that often anymore.

And that's by design.

Just don't really see the point.

For me it was about redefining what "peak performance" even was.

According to who??

Is reading an amazing book, having a ton of deep thoughts about it, and exchanging those ideas with brilliant people you respect any less intellectually valid than putting your brainpower towards generating profits??

Are profits and titles actually the measure of a well-utilized brain??

[aloevera1]

I relate a lot to this.

I accomplished a Super Impressive Thing in my early twenties. I was the only person from my social circle (or even extended circle as far as I can see) to ever do Such an Impressive Thing.

Then I hit a wall in motivation. First, I couldn't really find motivation to move on to the Next Impressive Thing. Second, a person very close to me died around that time not even hitting 50. They were an inspiration to me. They also accomplished Impressive Things and saw a great future for me. After their early death, I just couldn't see the point...

I also saw someone who was even a higher achiever than me, he did an Even More Impressive thing. Inside, he was pretty empty. The sacrifice was huge, the relationships around him just dissolved. He couldn't function without the goal that required multiple sacrifices and general misery. Profesionally, he is a rock star though.

So... Where does the path of accomplishments lead?

I still don't have an answer to that question and don't see a point. 10+ years later I don't feel the need to chase accomplishments. I get satisfaction from close relationships, learning new skills, mentoring, building beautiful life, growing a garden, camping...

I sometimes feel like my brain capacity is underutilized. Sure, I still do  a lot of mentally challenging and stimulating work. I also use my brain for non-work pursuits. However, I don't reach PEAK PERFORMANCE that often anymore.

And that's by design.

Just don't really see the point.

For me it was about redefining what "peak performance" even was.

According to who??

Is reading an amazing book, having a ton of deep thoughts about it, and exchanging those ideas with brilliant people you respect any less intellectually valid than putting your brainpower towards generating profits??

Are profits and titles actually the measure of a well-utilized brain??

Yea, I don't really know who is the authority on the performance.

Internally, I know what it feels like though. I spent 15ish years studying STEM in depth, yes, starting in middle school. Think hard-core technical stuff, math, proofs, etc. My accomplishments didn't measure in profits. It was more about the impressiveness of the whole feat. It's kind of like everyone in the hometown barely makes through the high school level but I somehow pulled myself into the Ivy league school in the other country in a new language (not the real example, but you get the gist).

I am just really good at studying. It was a lot of effort but I know the level of performance I am capable of to achieve THE GOAL. I am not a genius by any means so this was just countless hours of work and laser focus on the goal.

I had all the abilities to go do PhD in a prestigious school, etc. etc. Never happened though because I just couldn't justify the cost to my quality of life.

Agree with you on the reading the book, having discussions, etc.. Right now a lot of my "spare" mental energy goes into figuring out what my pepper seedlings need. It's totally different but I watch them grow. It's not that easy. :)

There is more to life than accomplishments.

[Tass]

I had all the abilities to go do PhD in a prestigious school, etc. etc. Never happened though because I just couldn't justify the cost to my quality of life.

Good call.

[Metalcat]

I relate a lot to this.

I accomplished a Super Impressive Thing in my early twenties. I was the only person from my social circle (or even extended circle as far as I can see) to ever do Such an Impressive Thing.

Then I hit a wall in motivation. First, I couldn't really find motivation to move on to the Next Impressive Thing. Second, a person very close to me died around that time not even hitting 50. They were an inspiration to me. They also accomplished Impressive Things and saw a great future for me. After their early death, I just couldn't see the point...

I also saw someone who was even a higher achiever than me, he did an Even More Impressive thing. Inside, he was pretty empty. The sacrifice was huge, the relationships around him just dissolved. He couldn't function without the goal that required multiple sacrifices and general misery. Profesionally, he is a rock star though.

So... Where does the path of accomplishments lead?

I still don't have an answer to that question and don't see a point. 10+ years later I don't feel the need to chase accomplishments. I get satisfaction from close relationships, learning new skills, mentoring, building beautiful life, growing a garden, camping...

I sometimes feel like my brain capacity is underutilized. Sure, I still do  a lot of mentally challenging and stimulating work. I also use my brain for non-work pursuits. However, I don't reach PEAK PERFORMANCE that often anymore.

And that's by design.

Just don't really see the point.

For me it was about redefining what "peak performance" even was.

According to who??

Is reading an amazing book, having a ton of deep thoughts about it, and exchanging those ideas with brilliant people you respect any less intellectually valid than putting your brainpower towards generating profits??

Are profits and titles actually the measure of a well-utilized brain??

Yea, I don't really know who is the authority on the performance.

Internally, I know what it feels like though. I spent 15ish years studying STEM in depth, yes, starting in middle school. Think hard-core technical stuff, math, proofs, etc. My accomplishments didn't measure in profits. It was more about the impressiveness of the whole feat. It's kind of like everyone in the hometown barely makes through the high school level but I somehow pulled myself into the Ivy league school in the other country in a new language (not the real example, but you get the gist).

I am just really good at studying. It was a lot of effort but I know the level of performance I am capable of to achieve THE GOAL. I am not a genius by any means so this was just countless hours of work and laser focus on the goal.

I had all the abilities to go do PhD in a prestigious school, etc. etc. Never happened though because I just couldn't justify the cost to my quality of life.

Agree with you on the reading the book, having discussions, etc.. Right now a lot of my "spare" mental energy goes into figuring out what my pepper seedlings need. It's totally different but I watch them grow. It's not that easy. :)

There is more to life than accomplishments.

I have a doctorate from an elite program. It wasn't worth the literal cost and cost to my quality of life in the end.

It's also not actually that big a deal that I did it. Like, sure, it was enormously challenging and occasionally impresses random people for a few passing seconds, but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't actually matter.

FTR, I'm in grad school at this very moment, and it also really doesn't matter, except in terms of what it is adding to my quality of life.

For me, something is an accomplishment if it improves my overall well being. Anything else is just distraction and bullshit.

[2sk22]

I just had an amusing shower thought. Back when I was working on my PhD, I formulated a theorem about the behavior of neural networks and was able to prove it. My PhD dissertation was about the theorem and some applications of it. That was the last original bit of math I have done in my career. So in a literal sense I literally had "nothing more to prove"  😀

Postscript: I published a few journal papers about my work thirty odd years ago and citations have been accumulating at the rate of a couple per month ever since. To be honest, it's not that my theorem was earth shattering but rather that my papers were so early in the field of machine learning. Even so, I get some small satisfaction from knowing that I have not been completely forgotten.

[Metalcat]

I just had an amusing shower thought. Back when I was working on my PhD, I formulated a theorem about the behavior of neural networks and was able to prove it. My PhD dissertation was about the theorem and some applications of it. That was the last original bit of math I have done in my career. So in a literal sense I literally had "nothing more to prove"  😀

Postscript: I published a few journal papers about my work thirty odd years ago and citations have been accumulating at the rate of a couple per month ever since. To be honest, it's not that my theorem was earth shattering but rather that my papers were so early in the field of machine learning. Even so, I get some small satisfaction from knowing that I have not been completely forgotten.

I love this so much.