Why we don't move to where the jobs are

[CU Tiger]

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/08/unemployment_is_very_low_in_some_cities_so_why_don_t_people_move_there.html?wpisrc=obinsite

Short article about decreasing mobility in the US. I thought it was interesting.

[bUU]

People may have relatives to look after in their hometown, or else depend on relatives to take care of their kids. People have friends and family. They have financial and personal commitments.

This.

[jrhampt]

Thanks for sharing this.  I thought this line toward the end was interesting:

"The unemployment rate for college graduates is about half that for those with only a high school degree or less, which is often taken as evidence of the value of a college degree. But some of that value may simply reflect geographical mobility. "

[Villanelle]

While there are a few select scenarios where moving isn't a viable option, I think much of the time this is used as a complainy-pants excuse.

Cold?  Remote?  Small?  Boo-f'in-hoo. Do what it takes to take care if yourself and meet your commitments.  While things like the expense of moving are legitimate (though even that I think os often overplayed; there's no need to take your 10,000 pounds of household items with you), much of this is just excuses.

My husband is in the military, and as such, we have no choice about when and where we move. And everyone around us is in the same boat.  And yet we all manage to make it work.  Sometimes, it is difficult, but there are ways around nearly every reason that people often cite for why they can't move.  And if my family's financial stability depended on it, I would not hesitate to do whatever it took to get me to North Dakota for a job. 

Move your ailing relatives with you, separate your family for a while so one spouse stays with ailing relatives or at his or her job while the other spouse lives elsewhere, until jobs allowing colocation can be found, have a sibling take over parent care, etc.

So while occasionally it is a valid issue, most of the time I think it is an excuse. 

[bUU]

I think it is pretty hazardous to impose one's own personal assessment of the impact of family separation on others.

[Cromacster]

This reply is a little off topic but....

And if my family's financial stability depended on it, I would not hesitate to do whatever it took to get me to North Dakota for a job. 

North Dakota is the poster child right now.  I can see the TV commerical in my head "Don't have a job? Move to North Dakota and have one the day you arrive"

While that may be true, have you been to the oil producing areas of ND?  It's insane, to say the least.  Crazy traffic, crazy crime rates, hotel rooms go for $500.00 or more per night, Rents and housing are even worse, if you can find anything.  Granted if you live within 5 hrs and have a place to crash 2 weeks on 2 weeks off could work.  I know people who drive 10 hrs with such an arrangement.


/end Rant

[jba302]

Of course there are always good reasons not to move(...) Minneapolis (5.1 percent) is cold.

This is kind of a bullshit reason. Yes it gets cold but we have a skyway in the city. I just had to buy a really solid coat and boots for the winter when I used to be able to wear a jacket and just bitch about it (transplant from IL).

Unless he meant the people, then I would agree lol. Definitely not the friendliest folk to outsiders I've had the pleasure of trying to befriend.

[Undecided]

While there are a few select scenarios where moving isn't a viable option, I think much of the time this is used as a complainy-pants excuse.

Cold?  Remote?  Small?  Boo-f'in-hoo. Do what it takes to take care if yourself and meet your commitments.  While things like the expense of moving are legitimate (though even that I think os often overplayed; there's no need to take your 10,000 pounds of household items with you), much of this is just excuses.

My husband is in the military, and as such, we have no choice about when and where we move. And everyone around us is in the same boat.  And yet we all manage to make it work.  Sometimes, it is difficult, but there are ways around nearly every reason that people often cite for why they can't move.  And if my family's financial stability depended on it, I would not hesitate to do whatever it took to get me to North Dakota for a job. 

Move your ailing relatives with you, separate your family for a while so one spouse stays with ailing relatives or at his or her job while the other spouse lives elsewhere, until jobs allowing colocation can be found, have a sibling take over parent care, etc.

So while occasionally it is a valid issue, most of the time I think it is an excuse.

For some people in some situations, doing their best to take care of themselves and meet their commitments will involve uncertainties and tradeoffs. How have you arrived at the presumption that "most of the time" people are making excuses, rather than applying their own priorities to a situation with competing demands?

[Albert]

Ever considered that home, family even good weather means more for many people than better jobs?

[Jamesqf]

If you've got a guaranteed job offer, that's one thing, but there are good reasons not to move in search of a job, especially when you just look at an area's unemployment rate, and not the local conditions.  As for instance, the article cites Logan, Utah as having a very low jobless rate, but don't move there expecting to get a job, unless you're a Mormon.

[Noodle]

Interesting article. I have thought for a long time that it seemed like people were moving around less than the last couple generations. I know a lot of people my parents' age who moved around a lot, either for new jobs, corporate transfers, or the military. But my age and younger, I see more people who perhaps move once after college and want to stay put. Both my siblings picked cities after finishing up education and have every intention of retiring there. I have read about the growing trend to select a place you will like culturally (whether liberal or conservative) which is causing more polarization on cultural issues.

I think also for the first time in a long time we have fewer societal drivers moving people around. During the era when there was a lot of immigration, and westward migration, as well as growing factories, there were powerful economic reasons to move if things were tough where you were. Then the Civil War, World War I to some extent and World War II to a greater extent moved a lot of people around physically, and once they saw what was out there, they might choose to settle somewhere different than they started (often having met a spouse from another location). But now jobs are more evenly spread around, and we have a social safety net to ease the burden if one is without a job--also the lower the income, the more you need your personal social safety net (grandparent who will babysit the kid, friend who will fix your car at cost, knowing where the cheap grocery store is) which is hard to rebuild in a new place since it is based on years of relationships.

So it makes sense to me.

[Villanelle]

While there are a few select scenarios where moving isn't a viable option, I think much of the time this is used as a complainy-pants excuse.

Cold?  Remote?  Small?  Boo-f'in-hoo. Do what it takes to take care if yourself and meet your commitments.  While things like the expense of moving are legitimate (though even that I think os often overplayed; there's no need to take your 10,000 pounds of household items with you), much of this is just excuses.

My husband is in the military, and as such, we have no choice about when and where we move. And everyone around us is in the same boat.  And yet we all manage to make it work.  Sometimes, it is difficult, but there are ways around nearly every reason that people often cite for why they can't move.  And if my family's financial stability depended on it, I would not hesitate to do whatever it took to get me to North Dakota for a job. 

Move your ailing relatives with you, separate your family for a while so one spouse stays with ailing relatives or at his or her job while the other spouse lives elsewhere, until jobs allowing colocation can be found, have a sibling take over parent care, etc.

So while occasionally it is a valid issue, most of the time I think it is an excuse.

For some people in some situations, doing their best to take care of themselves and meet their commitments will involve uncertainties and tradeoffs. How have you arrived at the presumption that "most of the time" people are making excuses, rather than applying their own priorities to a situation with competing demands?

That article sites "cold, remote, and small" as reasons why people don't move.  Are you telling me those are legitimate reasons not to move if you can't support yourself without doing so? And that those are legitimate reasons for saying it just isn't possible for you?  "I don't want to" is far different than, "I can't", yet plenty of people say that they just aren't able to move, when in reality, then just don't wanna. 

When you have debt, it is an emergency, yes?  And is "too cold" a reason not to deal with that emergency by moving, much less a reason why you just can not do that?  Is, "will miss my friends or my mother" a valid excuse or a legitimate barrier so high that it is unsurmountable?  To me, no, they aren't. They are bullshit excuses, just like, "it is too dangerous to bike".  Some would say that that take on biking is applying one's own priorities to a situation with competing demands.  I'd say it is a complainy pants excuse, especially if there is a budget situation or if someone claims to want to better their financial picture.  If you don't want to nike, fine.  Own that.  But don't use BS barriers as a reason why it just isn't possible for you.

If it isn't worth it to you to move, so be it.  But to claim that it isn't a viable option because it is cold and you will miss your quilting circle is bullshit.  That's "I don't want to move", not "I can't and it isn't even a possibility for me because I just can't make it work". 

[ace1224]

People may have relatives to look after in their hometown, or else depend on relatives to take care of their kids. People have friends and family. They have financial and personal commitments.

This.

this as well.  while i would move if i had to, if it meant food for my family or nothing.  there really isn't anything that could entice me to move away from my family just for shits and giggles.  i was recently offered a job an hour away paying more money that would help me reach FI faster.  but for me personally, hitting FI 5-8 years sooner isn't worth not seeing my mom and dad almost everyday. 

[Undecided]

For some people in some situations, doing their best to take care of themselves and meet their commitments will involve uncertainties and tradeoffs. How have you arrived at the presumption that "most of the time" people are making excuses, rather than applying their own priorities to a situation with competing demands?

That article sites "cold, remote, and small" as reasons why people don't move.  Are you telling me those are legitimate reasons not to move if you can't support yourself without doing so? And that those are legitimate reasons for saying it just isn't possible for you?  "I don't want to" is far different than, "I can't", yet plenty of people say that they just aren't able to move, when in reality, then just don't wanna. 

When you have debt, it is an emergency, yes?  And is "too cold" a reason not to deal with that emergency by moving, much less a reason why you just can not do that?  Is, "will miss my friends or my mother" a valid excuse or a legitimate barrier so high that it is unsurmountable?  To me, no, they aren't. They are bullshit excuses, just like, "it is too dangerous to bike".  Some would say that that take on biking is applying one's own priorities to a situation with competing demands.  I'd say it is a complainy pants excuse, especially if there is a budget situation or if someone claims to want to better their financial picture.  If you don't want to nike, fine.  Own that.  But don't use BS barriers as a reason why it just isn't possible for you.

If it isn't worth it to you to move, so be it.  But to claim that it isn't a viable option because it is cold and you will miss your quilting circle is bullshit.  That's "I don't want to move", not "I can't and it isn't even a possibility for me because I just can't make it work".

I'm not sure you responded to my question (and you certainly took it as something other than a question), but I think in basing broad conclusions on the basis of the article's narrow (and unsupported) assertions, you come across as judging others based on your own priorities and presumptions. Presumably a person who declines to move for whatever reason either doesn't see their current situation as an emergency, or doesn't see their likely outcome from moving as a sufficiently strong improvement to warrant it. Who are we to say they're wrong?

[EMP]

And everyone around us is in the same boat. 

This seems to be a salient point.

[Kriegsspiel]

Yea, the military is really it's own beast as far as moving. I mean, units have PROCEDURES for welcoming new people, nobody thinks it's a big deal, and everyone has dealt with it so they know what you're going through. I made the mistake of thinking that would apply to civilian jobs, and was wrong.

[2527]

Yea, the military is really it's own beast as far as moving. I mean, units have PROCEDURES for welcoming new people, nobody thinks it's a big deal, and everyone has dealt with it so they know what you're going through. I made the mistake of thinking that would apply to civilian jobs, and was wrong.

+1

[TKE Super Dave]

Honestly, I'm going to agree with Villanelle with the fact that most people's reason's for not wanting to move are them being complainy-pants. 


This article in particular is about people who are unemployed or severely underemployed not wanting to move for reasons that they don't have the financial security to afford. It is not talking about people who have the financial security to decide to stay and put other things in priority. If they have the financial stability fine allow other priorities to keep you from moving, but when you don't and you can improve your situation and you don't you are just being a complainy-pants.

[Jamesqf]

Yea, the military is really it's own beast as far as moving. I mean, units have PROCEDURES for welcoming new people...

More importantly, in the military you pretty much know that you will have a job (or at least your regular pay) when you move.  That's often not true in the civilian world.  There's also the question, in civilian life, of whether you have the requisite skills to get a job at your new location.  While in the military it's basically a matter of whether your MOS is needed at the new location, if you moved to North Dakota expecting to find a job, you could well discover that they're hiring welders, pipe fitters, and heavy equipment operators - when you have lots of experience in say customer service.

[smedleyb]

People need to start embracing risk and adventure.  I'm not really shocked a nation of figurative couch potatoes doesn't feel compelled to move beyond what is familiar and comfortable. 

[EMP]

Can you put a dollar amount on your social network? Mine, pathetic as it is, would be pretty high.  I'd have to have a pretty enticing offer to make that kind of move worthwhile, or be in desperate straights. And I know you can build a new network in your new place, but there are expenses to that too.

[Villanelle]

Yea, the military is really it's own beast as far as moving. I mean, units have PROCEDURES for welcoming new people, nobody thinks it's a big deal, and everyone has dealt with it so they know what you're going through. I made the mistake of thinking that would apply to civilian jobs, and was wrong.

Have you ever dealt with a military move.  While sometimes it is like this, more often than not, it isn't. 

And I think you are all focusing on the minutia here.  I brought it up to show that tens of thousands or people move and find ways to make it work, despite  "cold, "distant" "remote", and even "away from family".

Those are all things that can be overcome.  To use them as excuses to not even consider jobs out of one's current area is whiny complainy-pantsism at it's worst. 

The articel is about people who claim to be somewhat desperate, and yet refuse to move because "cold".  And you all think that isn't Facepunch-worthy?  If they were saying they don't move because the jobs they've found in these employment pockets don't match their skill set (or a skill set they could reasonably acquire), that's a whole different animal. 

Again, I'm not saying everyone should move, or that these aren't even valid points to consider.  I'm saying that to write it off as impossible or "there's just no way I could do it" it bullshit.  If you are desperate for income but "cold" is holding you back from getting it, you deserve a face punch. 

[Undecided]

The articel is about people who claim to be somewhat desperate, and yet refuse to move because "cold".  And you all think that isn't Facepunch-worthy?  If they were saying they don't move because the jobs they've found in these employment pockets don't match their skill set (or a skill set they could reasonably acquire), that's a whole different animal. 

Again, I'm not saying everyone should move, or that these aren't even valid points to consider.  I'm saying that to write it off as impossible or "there's just no way I could do it" it bullshit.  If you are desperate for income but "cold" is holding you back from getting it, you deserve a face punch.

I don't disagree with your last paragraph, but I don't think it's what the article said. There's no data about reasons, there are no anecdotes concerning individuals, there are just numbers about variance in unemployment rates and a decline in mobility over the past ~30 years. I think you (and Matthew Yglesias) are jumping to some conclusions (and he didn't really harp on them, which may be why your reaction to the article wasn't more widely shared). But if you interviewed someone in a desperate situation who dismissed the possibility of even considering a move, I think people here would be more uniform in their response.

The article links to some census data that includes tables breaking down mobility by a number of factors. I've only glanced at them, but they are also interesting (but not perfectly informative).

[dragoncar]

Same reason people drive around the parking lot waiting for a spot near the entrance of their gym.

[NICE!]

I think it is pretty hazardous to impose one's own personal assessment of the impact of family separation on others.

The article directly discusses this issue and accurately notes that shutting down the conversation on account of this issue is equally bad.

[NICE!]

The articel is about people who claim to be somewhat desperate, and yet refuse to move because "cold".  And you all think that isn't Facepunch-worthy?  If they were saying they don't move because the jobs they've found in these employment pockets don't match their skill set (or a skill set they could reasonably acquire), that's a whole different animal. 

Again, I'm not saying everyone should move, or that these aren't even valid points to consider.  I'm saying that to write it off as impossible or "there's just no way I could do it" it bullshit.  If you are desperate for income but "cold" is holding you back from getting it, you deserve a face punch.

I don't disagree with your last paragraph, but I don't think it's what the article said. There's no data about reasons, there are no anecdotes concerning individuals, there are just numbers about variance in unemployment rates and a decline in mobility over the past ~30 years. I think you (and Matthew Yglesias) are jumping to some conclusions (and he didn't really harp on them, which may be why your reaction to the article wasn't more widely shared). But if you interviewed someone in a desperate situation who dismissed the possibility of even considering a move, I think people here would be more uniform in their response.

The article links to some census data that includes tables breaking down mobility by a number of factors. I've only glanced at them, but they are also interesting (but not perfectly informative).

The article is a symptom of the internet - short so that people read it. I don't have the data here, but there is plenty of background in this topic - labor mobility is definitely down. Here's a link he provided:
http://www.voxeu.org/article/immigrants-reduce-geographic-inequality

And people do give pretty lame reasons for lots of things, I don't see why moving across the country would be any different. It isn't easy if it hasn't been your life, like someone who grew up doing it.

[smedleyb]

One must wonder to what extent an integrated and affordable national health care system would improve the mobility of workers, especially those with children and pushing ages 50 and up.

I agree with the Boss that much of the stress over healthcare is partly an exaggeration of real risk, but  it certainly still exists on a large scale, IMO.   

[Cromacster]

Same reason people drive around the parking lot waiting for a spot near the entrance of their gym.

This! haha

[AlmostIndependent]

Yea, the military is really it's own beast as far as moving. I mean, units have PROCEDURES for welcoming new people, nobody thinks it's a big deal, and everyone has dealt with it so they know what you're going through. I made the mistake of thinking that would apply to civilian jobs, and was wrong.

+1

I lol'd a little.

[MrsPete]

Two completely different thoughts:

For some jobs moving is less necessary than in previous years because the workers can work from home via computer.  If you can work from your home office and live where ever you please, why bother to leave family, search for a new home, or brave the cold? 

It's harder when you're married and are juggling two careers.  For example, as a  teacher, I'm tied to my state.  I'm a state employee and part of the state pension plan.  The way to "win" that game is to stay put.  As a result, my husband has turned down two out of state jobs.  Each time we've done the math and decided that the knock to our retirement was not worth the increase in his salary.

[catmustache]

Um, maybe this is complainypants, but moving costs money, y'all.

More importantly, in the military you pretty much know that you will have a job (or at least your regular pay) when you move.  That's often not true in the civilian world.  There's also the question, in civilian life, of whether you have the requisite skills to get a job at your new location.  While in the military it's basically a matter of whether your MOS is needed at the new location, if you moved to North Dakota expecting to find a job, you could well discover that they're hiring welders, pipe fitters, and heavy equipment operators - when you have lots of experience in say customer service.

+1 to that.
  I think the article discounts the dissuasive effect of the actual costs of relocation (new home, tickets, car depreciation, etc.) to someplace where you know nobody combined with the uncertainty of maybe getting a new job in a new area. For people who have next to no savings, no job and a ton of localized debt (underwater mortgage, car payment, etc.), that could be a big deal.

Yes, it could be overcome, but the majority won't do it, especially without a guaranteed payoff.

[SisterX]

"If you are desperate for income but "cold" is holding you back from getting it, you deserve a face punch.
[/quote]
I live in a cold, remote area, and honestly it shouldn't be dismissed as easily as you are doing.  When it gets to -50F/-60F (-45/-50ish C) for over a week and it's dark all the time and your family isn't in the same town let alone the same state, it can feel pretty isolating.  Especially for new people.  Those of us who've been here for a while have networks of friends to help us cope, as well as experience in what keeps us sane.  (For me, lots of plants.  For others, sun lamps and "happy lights" to ward off SAD.)  People who've just moved here miss out on all of those things.  Not to mention, it takes them much longer to acclimate.

And I'm speaking from both personal experience and from what I'm observing right now.  At work we had a lifelong Floridian move up here.  She's miserable, constantly telling us how "weird" Alaskans are and how if she knew just how bad Alaskan winters would be she never would have accepted the job.  Poor research on her part, true (who doesn't realize that Alaskan winters are long and harsh?!), but she's also away from family for the first time ever and illness (perhaps terminal?) has struck a loved one back home and she's not there to take care of them.  All this is compounding and making her one miserable b****.  And because she's unhappy, she's doing her best to make everyone around her just as miserable.  (Unfortunately, she's the boss, so she has the power to do so.) 

If the climate, location, or circumstances are going to make you miserable in one location, even if there are extremely well paying jobs there, don't move there.  It's not worth it to you OR to those who will be forced to be around you.  Seriously.

[NCoffey]

I have custody of 3 children from an ex-wife. I am unable to move out of the state without her permission which she would not give. My current wife has custody of her children and is in the same situation. Her ex is a lot more understanding and reasonable. I would also throw out there that, to me, no job is worth not being able to see my kids. If I wanted to move for a job I would have to give up custody and would incur great expense to be able to visit. Not to mention the percentage of the income that would go to child support. Those factors together could make moving for a job to be far less profitable than opportunities here, even if local opportunities are not great.

Even if we didn't have ex spouses to contend with, the choice of moving is not an individual decision when you have a family. It is something that needs to be discussed with the spouse.

If I were not a father I would move anywhere.

[pbkmaine]

I loved working in Minneapolis! I was there for 2.5 years and would have stayed, but DH could not find a job.  Weather is not an issue at all if you have the proper gear. Cold weather sports are huge. (If I had stayed longer, I totally would have joined a curling club.) Minnesotans can be a bit standoffish, but Garrison Keillor (author, humorist) helped me crack the code. I put a huge highway map of Minnesota in my office, read up on the Vikings and the Twins, went to U of M football games and had a total blast. I still keep in touch with the people I met there, and it's been 12 years.  But I am a rare extrovert in this forum of introverts, and that may have helped me.

[Jamesqf]

I live in a cold, remote area, and honestly it shouldn't be dismissed as easily as you are doing.  When it gets to -50F/-60F (-45/-50ish C) for over a week and it's dark all the time...

Works the other way around, too.  I could be quite happy in an Alaskan winter, but living in places where the temperature regularly tops 100F?  Where the blazing sun fries you like bacon on a griddle? Oh, I've done it, but I sure wasn't happy.

[SisterX]

Jamesqf, true!  My husband and I are thinking about where we want to settle down eventually, and we've automatically ruled out very warm places because we're completely useless when it's regularly hotter than 80 degrees.  I'm sure we'd acclimate, but part of the reason I enjoy Alaska is because I like winter and I like cold weather.  Thankfully, there are plenty of cooler places where we have friends and family, and where there are decent job prospects.  If that wasn't true, I don't think we'd be so quick to rule out the warmer climates.