Author Topic: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?  (Read 8080 times)

Just Joe

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2020, 07:57:41 PM »
Do you not worry about self-service sales aka Amazon, McMaster-Carr, Uline, etc?

No government organization, bank or insurance company is going to buy $3M a year worth of vendor-sourced IT SW and services through Amazon...

:)

No, but I do know a couple of salesmen who retired at the right time b/c their business was replaced by vendor websites allowing the customer to buy direct. The salesmen, the customers, and the business model all retired at the same time..... ;)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 08:04:29 PM by Just Joe »

Syonyk

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2020, 09:14:27 PM »
If your job is 90% isolated programming with no interaction with others whatsoever, it can work.  Most of that can and should be outsourced or automated.  But the moment you need interaction, it all starts to unravel.

It really, really depends on the company and the people involved.

Some companies have good remote work systems such that you get most of those interactions - videoconferencing is a thing, IRC/Slack/etc is a thing, etc.  Some companies don't have good remote work systems, and there, yes, you need to be a bit more independent/isolated.

I've worked for both.  The first is nice, but man am I more productive (in terms of the sort of stuff I'm paid to do) with the second.  It's not at all unfair to say that a day of concentrated work (either remote, or local, isolated, "someone brings you lunch so you don't have to drop out of the zone" sort of thing) can beat weeks of typical office work for actually getting stuff done.  Some offices are nothing but distractions, and if you're not really aggressive about protecting your time, you can go a month and not actually get anything that matters done.

lilsaver

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2020, 10:12:58 PM »
Remote worker here in the U.S. I'm not a telecommuter (this means you have to go into the office for X days). I'm a remote worker, so my office is at my home. The company is super set up for this in their culture, they use a lot of conference call/screen sharing for work. Many people are remote, but mostly for niche or more senior roles. Some of my team members are not remote.

So, at first, it can feel pretty great - no commute, no gas expenses, no need to do hair/makeup, you can wake up later, eat lunch at home, etc. The downside, is that it can feel pretty isolating. This definitely took me by surprise, but some days I have such little interaction with others that when it does happen, it's such a highlight of my day. It also feels like you're left out of the loop on a lot of things, because not everything gets communicated over calls and emails.

Overall, just with the level of flexibility you can have,  I think the perks still outweigh it. But, just be careful, it's not all sunshine and roses.

nereo

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2020, 05:46:45 AM »
It's MLK day today, and the kids are off school.  How many hours of WFH time do you suppose was billed today that was actually childcare?  I expect the number was incredible.
 
Friends who are a couple with two pre-school children have the following child care arrangement:

Monday grandma comes over and watches the kids while both parents go to work.
Tuesday and Thursday mom is WFH with the kids.
Wednesday and Friday dad is WFH with the kids.

Voila, no daycare bill.  Both parents are working about three days a week and getting paid for five.  They're not lazy, they just know what they can get away with and they maximize it for their advantage.

The strong argument for allowing WFH isn't that the above is uncommon.  Looking around at people I know, I'd say some version of the above, to a greater or lesser extent, is extremely common. 

The strong argument for WFH is that using work time for personal tasks doesn't matter, because lots of people aren't really working more than 20 hours a week anyways, so it's better to let them use the other 20 for whatever they want than force them to sit at the office watching sports reruns on their second monitor.  WFH might be an implied acknowledgement of that reality, but in that case let's just chop the work week back to 20 or 25 hours and quit pretending people are really working 40 or 50.

Your overarching point seems to be that people who WFH frequently "game" the system and get paid for work that isn't actually done.  This is a frequent complaint but one I think isn't broadly supported and is ultimately irrelevant.  Do some people get paid for working remotely even when they are not actually working?  Of course.  But that doesn't seem to change with people being *in* an office.  Lots of productivity studies show the typical office worker to be productive for less than half of their work day, and instead spend a huge amount of time checking personal email, on social media platforms, taking various breaks, in non-work related conversations with coworkers, etc.  Keeping employees productive is perhaps the single biggest challenge of management, period.



StarBright

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2020, 06:14:20 AM »
If your job is 90% isolated programming with no interaction with others whatsoever, it can work.  Most of that can and should be outsourced or automated.  But the moment you need interaction, it all starts to unravel. In my experience, the biggest value adds occur in live face-to-face meetings, interactions, discussions, arguments, collaborations, etc with full body language, animated behavior, white board pictures, etc.   That goes for internal work as well as customer interaction.  Value-boosting interaction can be planned (eg meetings, workshops) or spontaneous (stomp into another office, bump into someone getting coffee).  If you work is not about people, I doubt you are adding any significant value for your employer.  You are a replaceable widget maker.

As someone who has been a remote worker for over a decade in a roll that requires constant interaction (both internally and with customers via phone or web conferencing) - I disagree with the bolded. My job was much easier when I was in the office but it is not a disaster (I believe I add value because my boss keeps throwing raises at me when I get annoyed). I have found that I spend MORE time doing my job remotely because of the lack of face time.

I do agree with your next sentence that face time adds value - but there are ways to make up for that with web-based platforms if you are willing to put in the work. I have also found that sometimes I just have to reach out to coworkers and interact with them for non-work related chats. I use Slack all day long. I make sure to socialize like a crazy person the 2-3 times a year when I'm in the office and I check in weekly with teams that don't know me as well and have never worked on site with me. It is hard! But I have amazing flexibility when it comes to my children's school hours and my husband's job so it is worth it.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 07:04:31 AM by StarBright »

asauer

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2020, 06:34:35 AM »
I've been in charge of the remote work policy in several companies I've worked for.  Here are some of the things I've run up against when creating or editing our policy:
1. Workers won't be productive attitude.  Really?  If you don't trust them to do their jobs, why do they work here?  Also, if they're remote and not producing results, why do they work here?
2. The "right now" culture.  Even in some of this thread posts I see that attitude.  Many organizations have an unreasonable expectation around how fast things should get done.  In very few cases, does two hours make a difference.  If the individual is required to have near- immediate response (some IT roles) then make that an expectation up front.  A lot of managers don't do that.
3. Some people just like working at an office.  Several of my staff have little kids at home and enjoy having office time.  So I would never make it a requirement.

Luck12

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2020, 09:26:19 AM »
https://www.timedoctor.com/blog/remote-teams-future-of-work/

https://www.inc.com/scott-mautz/a-2-year-stanford-study-shows-astonishing-productivity-boost-of-working-from-home.html


https://hbr.org/2019/08/is-it-time-to-let-employees-work-from-anywhere

Here are 3 articles among the first few Google results, 2 of them explicitly indicate increased productivity from studies done and not just increased hours.  All talk about other benefits to both employees and employers.   

Of course it's about control and mistrust of the workforce.   A cursory knowledge of the labor history of mankind would tell you that. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 09:30:10 AM by Luck12 »

Luck12

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2020, 09:34:01 AM »
2. The "right now" culture.  Even in some of this thread posts I see that attitude.  Many organizations have an unreasonable expectation around how fast things should get done.  In very few cases, does two hours make a difference.  If the individual is required to have near- immediate response (some IT roles) then make that an expectation up front.  A lot of managers don't do that.

Yeah that "right now" culture is fucking ridiculous if you're in a regular office setting (i.e. not a doctor, police officer, etc).  A lot of the work is bullshit anyway and even when it's not, it's not like anyone's going to die if something isn't done within an hour.  Again, it's another way for management to control and order around the minions. 

LiveLean

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2020, 09:46:09 AM »
The issue isn't telecommuting so much as self-employment.

Employees abuse telecommuting. They're getting paid the same amount whether they goof off all day at home or at work.

My MIL is fond of saying that me and my brother-in-law have similar working arrangements. since we both work from home. Totally false. He's a full-time corporate employee. I'm self-employed.

When you're self-employed, you're paid on your productivity and output. Therefore, you're highly incentivized to work as productively as possible. I've been self-employed working from home -- traveling, too - for 21 years. You could triple my income with an offer to go back to full-time W2 office meeting-and-cubicle culture and I'd turn it down. Life's too short to be Peter Gibbons.

DadJokes

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2020, 09:51:17 AM »
It's way easier for me to goof off at work than it is to goof off at home.

If I telework, I have to submit a plan of action before I start, and I have to submit a form detailing everything I did at the end of the day. If I'm in the office, I can basically just scroll MMM forums, chat with coworkers, do whatever. I don't even bother to telework unless the weather is bad.

PDXTabs

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2020, 09:58:27 AM »
2. The "right now" culture.  Even in some of this thread posts I see that attitude.  Many organizations have an unreasonable expectation around how fast things should get done.  In very few cases, does two hours make a difference.  If the individual is required to have near- immediate response (some IT roles) then make that an expectation up front.  A lot of managers don't do that.

I will agree that this is a big problem in modern work life. Cal Newport does a good job documenting just how damaging it is to productivity in Deep Work. However, with Slack remote workers are not immune.

JSMustachian

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2020, 10:07:25 AM »
I have the ability to work from home at my job but my director still makes us drive into work because he spent a million dollars of the company budget to build our department. It literally looks like a NASA HQ and he likes to have bodies in the department when he does tours.

I hope to use FIRE as leverage to get more WFH days before one day I decide to quit.

EvenSteven

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2020, 10:10:05 AM »
Especially for those expressing strong opinions that people should work from home, is there in an implied (tech workers or programmers) that is not explicitly stated?

There are still many jobs that cannot be done from home.

nereo

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2020, 10:12:08 AM »
It's way easier for me to goof off at work than it is to goof off at home.

If I telework, I have to submit a plan of action before I start, and I have to submit a form detailing everything I did at the end of the day. If I'm in the office, I can basically just scroll MMM forums, chat with coworkers, do whatever. I don't even bother to telework unless the weather is bad.

This has been my experience as well.  Whenever I worked remotely I had a set amount of work and a definite timeline in which to complete said work.  Meetings were fairly focused and only a couple times per week.  In office settings half may day was spent either in meetings or in discussions only tangentially related to my workload.  It seemed to matter far less what my output was as long as I was present, and much of my workload was continually being passed from one team to another.

exige

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2020, 10:24:36 AM »
According to the data within industrial/organizational psychology, job satisfaction peaks at telecommuting 2 days/week. Turns out people like to physically show up to the office and be social with other people.

I found this very true I was doing 2 - 3 days a week and it was great went full time WFH and ended up hating it. New gig is all in the office with the occasional WFH and I wish I could get it to 2 days a week.

PDXTabs

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2020, 10:29:51 AM »
There are still many jobs that cannot be done from home.

This is very true. My wife works in a BSL 2+ lab. But when she doesn't need to go into the lab she can read the latest research at home, or write her latest paper at home. Her boss is 100% supportive of this split.

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2020, 10:54:01 AM »
I work on the engineering team for a small startup.  About half the engineers are remote, i.e. >1,000 miles away.  In my experience, it has been tremendously detrimental to our team's productivity. 

Let me give you an example.  Two mechanical engineers, one local, one remote.  The local guy has some changes he needs remote guy to make.  If they were in the same place, the one guy could walk over to the other guy's office, point at something on the screen, and be done in 30 seconds.  With the geographical separation, the first guy has to take a screenshot or print something off, somehow annotate it, send it to the remote engineer, and hope it gets interpreted the right way.  Or fire up a video conference and try to explain it via webcam, and again hope it gets interpreted correctly.


The issue is that in a lot of firms, you are not in the same space at all anyway.  Many firms are hoteling as well so you do not have your team members nearby, if even in the same city.  But everyone still has to show up at whatever office they need to show up at.

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2020, 11:04:45 AM »
Quote
I work on the engineering team for a small startup.  About half the engineers are remote, i.e. >1,000 miles away.  In my experience, it has been tremendously detrimental to our team's productivity.

Let me give you an example.  Two mechanical engineers, one local, one remote.  The local guy has some changes he needs remote guy to make.  If they were in the same place, the one guy could walk over to the other guy's office, point at something on the screen, and be done in 30 seconds.  With the geographical separation, the first guy has to take a screenshot or print something off, somehow annotate it, send it to the remote engineer, and hope it gets interpreted the right way.  Or fire up a video conference and try to explain it via webcam, and again hope it gets interpreted correctly.

I'm the lead software engineer for my company and couldn't agree more.  About half my team works remotely and it's about a 20-40% productivity hit for the entire team, although it's possible that if each member were measured individually they would appear more productive.

The biggest barrier is communication - especially when doing design and code review.  If I have questions and the programmer is in the office, I can call him in and point to the screen and get answers, explanations, and usually a resolution within 10 minutes.  This often involves pulling up screens, searching through other similar code, and the quick sketching of diagrams.  If the programmer is offsite, this easily takes an hour, frustratingly spread over several days.


By randomly calling people in to ask for help or with questions, you are interrupting that other person's productivity.  Sometimes it's better to work things out on your own, productivity wise than immediately have to walk into someone else's office or call them.  It may be a net loss in productivity for the team as a whole in your situation.

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2020, 11:08:25 AM »
Quote
I work on the engineering team for a small startup.  About half the engineers are remote, i.e. >1,000 miles away.  In my experience, it has been tremendously detrimental to our team's productivity.

Let me give you an example.  Two mechanical engineers, one local, one remote.  The local guy has some changes he needs remote guy to make.  If they were in the same place, the one guy could walk over to the other guy's office, point at something on the screen, and be done in 30 seconds.  With the geographical separation, the first guy has to take a screenshot or print something off, somehow annotate it, send it to the remote engineer, and hope it gets interpreted the right way.  Or fire up a video conference and try to explain it via webcam, and again hope it gets interpreted correctly.

My strong preference would be to have everyone working in the office 4 days a week, with two afternoons at home or with closed office door for "deep thought" work.  It's not about control, but about what's best for the team as a whole.

Many people in my city have 1-2 hour commutes, and will not appreciate coming in from 9-1, then having to spend 1-2 hours getting home.  This makes very little sense, and doesn't at all address the OP's position that it would help the environment, public transit delays/car traffic issues, and personal happiness/productivity.  And most people don't have offices to close their doors.  Your solution makes it even worse.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2020, 11:23:11 AM »
Especially for those expressing strong opinions that people should work from home, is there in an implied (tech workers or programmers) that is not explicitly stated?

There are still many jobs that cannot be done from home.

Absolutely.  If you're stacking boxes, flipping burgers, putting tickets on cars . . . you need to be at work.

But work from home works well for many more than just tech workers and programmers.

EvenSteven

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2020, 11:54:52 AM »
Especially for those expressing strong opinions that people should work from home, is there in an implied (tech workers or programmers) that is not explicitly stated?

There are still many jobs that cannot be done from home.

Absolutely.  If you're stacking boxes, flipping burgers, putting tickets on cars . . . you need to be at work.

But work from home works well for many more than just tech workers and programmers.

Do you know if there is data available on the proportion of jobs that could be done from home?

GuitarStv

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2020, 11:57:31 AM »
Especially for those expressing strong opinions that people should work from home, is there in an implied (tech workers or programmers) that is not explicitly stated?

There are still many jobs that cannot be done from home.

Absolutely.  If you're stacking boxes, flipping burgers, putting tickets on cars . . . you need to be at work.

But work from home works well for many more than just tech workers and programmers.

Do you know if there is data available on the proportion of jobs that could be done from home?

No.  I'm not sure how that would even be collected . . . since many programmers who don't need to speak to another person all day are considered by their managers to have a job where they absolutely need to work from the office.  :P

studentloanobliterator

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2020, 12:52:30 PM »
Remote worker here, in a software development role. Most of my ~10 person team is remote, with other teams within the company working in-person. The company all uses Slack, so there really isn't much difference between working in the office and working remotely. It seems like the company culture of using Slack as a primary communication tool helps immensely.

Bottom line: there is no "one size fits all" as several people have said. Some work needs to be done in-person.

However, I have problems with a few of the anti-WFH arguments people are using. Most of these reasons boil down to some variation of "people abuse the system and do less work when they're at home".

Employees abuse telecommuting. They're getting paid the same amount whether they goof off all day at home or at work.

This may be true, but I don't see how the location of the employee plays a factor.

Part of the role of the boss is to create metrics for the employees. Since measuring success is difficult, most bosses default to some variant on "hours worked", which isn't particularly useful. A more useful metric is something tied to output. If you're a programmer, maybe that means setting deadlines on building x feature or resolving y ticket. If you're in sales, maybe it's hitting a quota. Tie employee success to something other than "hours logged", because at the end of the day, the number of man-hours doesn't matter to the business; getting stuff done is what matters.

A few responses talk about the value of face time/in-person interaction. This is very field-dependent; in some cases this is unavoidable. However, in many cases this is a solvable problem. Video calling is incredibly easy, and if you set the expectation that people need to be available on Slack/phone/[platform of choice] during working hours, it takes less time to video call somebody than it would have taken to walk over to their desk. Want to collaborate on something? Slack (and other similar tools) have collaborative screen sharing and you can draw on the presenter's screen; you can easily have a whiteboard discussion over the internet. The "we need face time" argument simply does not hold water in many cases because a physical presence is not required for a conversation.

Finally, a few people have mentioned some variant of "I'm not paying my employees to do their childcare/not work when they work from home". Again, this gets tied to the idea of better employee metrics. Of course you're not paying somebody to watch their kid. But you're also not paying them because having somebody sit at a desk is valuable to you. Employees are employed because they provide some form of value. If you (the employer) can't measure that value, what are you doing?

Hypothetically, if I built a software feature that makes my company millions of dollars, do you think my boss cares whether it took me all day or five minutes? I doubt it. Most cases are less black-and-white than this, but the point is that we ought to be valuing employees for their contributions, not for the hours of their lives.

Finally, I want to point out that of course there can be crappy WFH arrangements. If something gets delayed a day simply because of a long communication turnaround, that's of course a problem. But that's more indicative that you need to change something about the arrangement than that working from home is bad. Some direct, actionable steps that employers can take include:
  • Get all employees on an online communication tool. Whatever tool you use should have options for easily messaging and calling people, individually and as a group. At my job everybody is on Slack and it works really well.
  • In addition to the above, establish lines of communication for different levels of urgency. This will vary depending on the company. But generally, there ought to be different channels of communication for "I need an answer right now" vs. "this can wait until you have a moment"
  • Define clear objectives for your employees. If you're worried about employees abusing the arrangement, this is your best bet. Work should include deadlines, even if they're soft. That way you don't end up with employees slacking off all day. By doing this, you've actually incentivized their working faster, because the faster they finish their deadline, the faster they can stop working.

Noodle

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #73 on: January 21, 2020, 12:52:58 PM »
Even though working from home isn't an option for me, this is a really interesting discussion--especially as a manager, so if a staff member requested WFH, I would be able to discuss it thoughtfully.

It sounds like jobs that are likely to be successful in a WFH scenario involve:

--individual work (especially if it's "deep work") that doesn't rely on face-to-face contact in a specific location (so it could be programming or telephone work like sales, or someone who goes out and and about but uses home as their base rather than an office)
--either a job that doesn't rely on a lot of interacting with colleagues, or a company that has a culture of using electronic communication for interaction
--an employee that has demonstrated conscientiousness and self-discipline, and has space and time for work without distractions from other household members
--work that can be measured in other ways besides "time in office"
--a manager who is comfortable and skilled in managing people who aren't physically in front of her
--employees who take the initiative to reach out and connect with colleagues

WFH often goes awry with:

--Work that requires or is best done with ongoing or informal interactions among colleagues and clients
--Inadequate technology, or people who don't understand or are unwilling to use the tools that are provided
--Workers with too many distractions (such as people who think they can do work and childcare simultaneously)
--Managers who can't or don't really want to manage remote employees
--Workers who don't have the right personality or ethics to self-manage
--Work that requires a level of security that can't be established outside of a physical location

Did I miss anything?

It was interesting to hear that a hybrid of WFH and in-office is often most successful--it reminded me of the fact that blended learning (some distance components, some in-person components) often accomplishes more than either of its components alone.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2020, 02:40:25 PM »
Again, this gets tied to the idea of better employee metrics. Of course you're not paying somebody to watch their kid. But you're also not paying them because having somebody sit at a desk is valuable to you. Employees are employed because they provide some form of value. If you (the employer) can't measure that value, what are you doing?

Some of the most important work is defined by problems rather than tasks.  The work is figuring out how to address a problem using a series of individual tasks that can then be parceled out and executed. The formative what-the-heck-are-we-doing and what-is-the-best-way-to-do-it work is pretty tough to do without face-to-face interaction.  So, at least in some areas, organizations do pay for smart people to be available to collaborate in generating ideas and frameworks that are later used to define concrete tasks.

afox

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2020, 04:44:54 PM »
Not sure if anyone has mentioned:
-telework increases employee satisfaction/retention while costing the organization little to nothing or more commonly saving the org. money.
-telework means office closures/lost productivity due to weather/snow/etc are a thing of the past. even minor health issues where employees would have been "out sick", employees are capable of teleworking.

GuitarStv

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2020, 04:54:35 PM »
Not sure if anyone has mentioned:
-telework increases employee satisfaction/retention while costing the organization little to nothing or more commonly saving the org. money.
-telework means office closures/lost productivity due to weather/snow/etc are a thing of the past. even minor health issues where employees would have been "out sick", employees are capable of teleworking.

I have worked dozens of sick days from home.  Not sure that was the best thing for me personally to do, but from the company's perspective it works out nicely.

lutorm

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2020, 07:16:05 PM »
I've worked 100% remote for more than 7 years in my current job (except showing my face for a few days every couple of months for concentrated discussions and brainstorming). The important thing to consider is that from the employer's point of view it's not a choice between "do we want Lutorm to work in the office or remotely?", it's "do we want Lutorm to work for us remotely or do we find someone else?"

I fully admit that some things are harder and less effective being remote, chiefly things that have to do with unstructured discussions and other communication-intensive tasks. But other things are more effective, as people have already alluded to.

But if the company is trying to keep a very high bar on hiring, like mine is, then the choice is between finding people relatively local, finding people that are willing to move to X from wherever they are, or finding people wherever they are and letting them work remotely. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that if you want a highly capable workforce, you need to drop the local requirement.

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2020, 10:56:59 AM »

WFH often goes awry with:

--Work that requires or is best done with ongoing or informal interactions among colleagues and clients
--Inadequate technology, or people who don't understand or are unwilling to use the tools that are provided
--Workers with too many distractions (such as people who think they can do work and childcare simultaneously)
--Managers who can't or don't really want to manage remote employees
--Workers who don't have the right personality or ethics to self-manage
--Work that requires a level of security that can't be established outside of a physical location


I actually disagree with this.  A company's work from home policy shouldn't be dependent on whether a manager has the skills or interest in managing remote employees.  That leads to employees in the same role, but with a worse manager, not getting benefits that other employees get. 

I also disagree with the personality assessment.  If an employee is not good ethically, then why is she even employed there in the first place?  This is way too subjective a criteria.  A policy needs to be coherent and applicable across the board, not just for managers to pick and choose subjectively.

studentloanobliterator

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2020, 11:15:47 AM »
Some of the most important work is defined by problems rather than tasks.  The work is figuring out how to address a problem using a series of individual tasks that can then be parceled out and executed. The formative what-the-heck-are-we-doing and what-is-the-best-way-to-do-it work is pretty tough to do without face-to-face interaction.  So, at least in some areas, organizations do pay for smart people to be available to collaborate in generating ideas and frameworks that are later used to define concrete tasks.

I think it's safe to say you're firmly in the "anti-telework" camp, yes? I think that's fair, some people do prefer to work that way. However, I think it's important to recognize that there are other, arguably better, ways of accomplishing the same things that you do in-person, even if you're more comfortable doing it in-person.

For example: I think the distinction on "problems rather than tasks" is mostly meaningless. But to be sure I'm not misunderstanding you: I assume you'd define "problem" roughly as "work that involves open-ended questions with no concrete list of action items", eg project planning, while a "task" is something that does have a concrete list of steps, eg "answer customer email"? If my assumed definitions are correct, I think you're underestimating how easy it is nowadays to do the "problems" work remotely.

I'm a software developer; almost everything I do is in the "problems" category. (Somewhat by definition, software development is the elimination of "task"-type work.) I collaborate every day with people in different time zones. The way I see it, the main benefit of in-person work is the ease and speed of communication. You can talk through ideas, share a whiteboard/paper that everybody can write on, etc. Most of this can be done remotely, but they do require tools to be in place. If you haven't delved into the neat features of Slack and similar tools, I highly recommend looking into it.

On the other hand, working in-person has several cons:
  • In my experience, I'm generally in a worse mood after a rush-hour commute.
  • Employees have less time because of their commute; while it's not "work time", if your commute is half an hour, you're spending an extra hour on work each day.
  • Offices have their own distractions - while it's a benefit to be able to pop over to somebody's desk to ask them a quick question, that often ruins your flow if you're focusing on a task. These minor interruptions add up. (There are distractions at home too - my point here is to say that neither location is free of this problem.)
  • Increased cost to employees for having to commute, whether it's by car, public transit, or bike. Biking is obviously the superior option if it's feasible. In my last in-person job it wasn't; I saved abotu $200/month on public transit expenses when I became a remote worker.
  • Increased cost to the employer for having to have space for the employee
All of this adds up to me not wanting to work an in-person job. I'm just too happy with my current workflow, and resulting lifestyle. Not that I'd absolutely refuse to switch, but I would have to be offered significantly more money to take an in-person job. Which, to an employer, translates to: you can spend less on your employees and keep them longer if you let them work remotely.

And, to reiterate: neither style is a "one size fits all" solution. My entirely remote team of coworkers still gets together in one place once a year, because there is benefit to that. I just think that remote work tends to get a bad rap because of some misconceptions about it.

Heywood57

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #80 on: January 22, 2020, 12:27:23 PM »
Can you expand on

"If you haven't delved into the neat features of Slack and similar tools, I highly recommend looking into it."

We have found Slack to be relatively useless.

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2020, 12:51:32 PM »
Generally, problems work is solved by one person and communicated in person to the others in the team.  If you're the person wondering what the heck do we do, you're not the one who is solving it.  Plotting out the steps to get to an answer is the bread and butter of management consultants and none of that has to be done in person by them or in a regular company.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 07:28:49 AM by Daisyedwards800 »

StarBright

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2020, 12:58:23 PM »
Can you expand on

"If you haven't delved into the neat features of Slack and similar tools, I highly recommend looking into it."

We have found Slack to be relatively useless.

I'm not the person quoted but I use it for the following:
  • When I have a few quick questions but don't want to get bogged down in a phone call. I work with some major phone hogs though.
  • IT issues are handled almost exclusively through slack at our company because it is so easy to share screenshots of error messages and problems
  • I use it to chase people down when I REALLY need to talk to them. We have a manager who flits from desk to desk and never checks voicemails or emails. If I call and he isn't there the receptionist tells me where he is, I slack the person who's desk he's at ("Tell Bob to quit talking and call me right now!") and I have the conversation I need.
  • Social stuff - if I play a board game that I know a coworker would love or read something they would like - I slack them a link to it. As a remote worker this is a very easy way to be casually friendly. Also - Gif parties and general chatting (especially during unnecessary meetings.)
  • Channels - we utilize channels for both customer project related conversations and internal categories. We do have one team where 3/5 of us are remote so we tend to slack the most. One team I'm on uses trello, another uses salesforce. Slack integrates with both - pretty handy for me!


« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 01:11:26 PM by StarBright »

PDXTabs

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2020, 12:59:13 PM »
We have found Slack to be relatively useless.

I find Slack to be as useful as you make it. If you use it for instant messaging all the time you might be sad. If you use it for voice teleconferences and screen sharing with remote employees it can work really well.

studentloanobliterator

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2020, 04:44:34 PM »
Can you expand on

"If you haven't delved into the neat features of Slack and similar tools, I highly recommend looking into it."

We have found Slack to be relatively useless.

The others who have responded to this have hit the big points. I'm personally not trying to push Slack specifically, but rather generally the idea of tools that make remote work better. I just happen to apply this to Slack because that's what my workplace uses, and it seems to be the current standard. With that in mind, here are some qualities that make a good tool:
  • Easy to get a hold of individuals quickly. In Slack, I can IM people for one-on-one talks, and I can call them if I want to actually talk.
  • Easy to have group discussions, with varying degrees of formality/casualness. In slack you can have channels for particular topics or teams. Channels can be restricted to specific users if you want a more private group discussion, but it's also extremely easy for any user to create a channel. This encourages official team discussions, but also encourages people to have casual conversations. In my workplace, there are channels for a casual "book club", gaming, etc. We even have one called "grammarpolice" where people can share screenshots of bad grammar. The "water cooler" effect is non-negligible.
  • Easy to have face-to-face meetings. In Slack it's as easy as clicking the "call" button on a channel, and you have face time with your colleagues. People can share their screens, and other people can draw on the presenter's screen. We've found that this is enough, but you can also share control of your screen in a call, so in theory you could have one person host a "whiteboard" that everybody contributes to. While this sounds neat in theory, my experience is that it's plenty to have one person drive with everybody else drawing on the screen.
  • Easy ad-hoc communication. This is tightly tied with the preceding two points, but important enough that it warrants its own point. Sometimes you don't know in advance who needs to be involved in a conversation, so being able to quickly loop somebody in is important. In Slack adding additional users to a channel is as easy as tagging them. Or, if you don't want to create a channel, you can also easily start a group PM thread. This is the online equivalent of walking over to somebody's desk to pull them into a chat.
  • Easily make announcements. Sometimes you need to announce something to everybody; in-person, you just loudly say "Can I have your attention," and in Slack you just tag @channel or @here. Similar platforms have similar features.
There are also ways you can accomplish this without needing a dedicated tool. You could in theory accomplish the same thing with IRC, email, and phones, but having a dedicated tool has the benefit of creating a virtual "workspace", and when you aren't in an office together that sense of place can be important to consider.

OtherJen

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #85 on: January 22, 2020, 05:15:52 PM »
There are still many jobs that cannot be done from home.

This is very true. My wife works in a BSL 2+ lab. But when she doesn't need to go into the lab she can read the latest research at home, or write her latest paper at home. Her boss is 100% supportive of this split.

God, I wish mine had been. Your wife is lucky. My PIs always started harassing me to come in after one sick day. I think the only time I got any peace was when I was writing my dissertation and worked from home 3 days per week (easier to write).

I’m out of research and work as a freelance contractor full-time. All of my work is remote and completed in my home office. After 7 years, I think I’m feral and can’t imagine being in an office setting. I will concede that my last experience in any type of office was in an open-plan setting, which was highly distracting and completely useless for completing actual work (for me, at least). Even in labs, it was hard to get any deep work done at my desk. Doing bench and animal work onsite and all reading/writing offsite would have been ideal.

nereo

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2020, 06:43:02 AM »
Adding to what the other posters have said, some additional ways I've found Slack to be useful
  • Slack archives group discussions and provides accountability, all of which is searchable.  Its straightforward to go back and re-read what was said and who promised to do what. 
  • Better sharing of documents than via email, provides necessary context (e.g. group discussion) unlike Dropbox or Google Docs.  One of the constant frustrations with email is they grow into long threads or chains, and in the middle someone drops a relevant document, which is harder to locate down the line.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2020, 08:23:06 AM »
I think it's safe to say you're firmly in the "anti-telework" camp, yes? I think that's fair, some people do prefer to work that way. However, I think it's important to recognize that there are other, arguably better, ways of accomplishing the same things that you do in-person, even if you're more comfortable doing it in-person.

For example: I think the distinction on "problems rather than tasks" is mostly meaningless. But to be sure I'm not misunderstanding you: I assume you'd define "problem" roughly as "work that involves open-ended questions with no concrete list of action items", eg project planning, while a "task" is something that does have a concrete list of steps, eg "answer customer email"? If my assumed definitions are correct, I think you're underestimating how easy it is nowadays to do the "problems" work remotely.

I think there are some large scale problems that are inherently human, and the closer you get people together - literally, sitting them around the smallest table possible - the better the problem solving process will go.

Let me give you a recent example from my own life. My division is facing a significant budget gap in each of the next five years.  Several people manage portions of that budget, and everyone is going to have to make cuts.  So how should we decide what we're willing to cut?  In practice, we sat down in person to talk it out.  When we were done, everyone felt like they'd been heard and nobody felt put-upon by the cuts.  We now own them, and we feel okay communicating them down the chain.  In contrast, had we tried to hash this all out in any way remotely, I am positive it would have degenerated into a heated back and forth in which a significant portion of the interested parties didn't feel ownership of the result.  Or, if we had farmed the cuts out to a consultant, everyone would have hated them.  The point of this anecdote is that the more the "problem" becomes managing human personalities, emotions, and feelings, the more looking people in the eye makes sense.

I'm not saying every job needs to be done in person, and I understand why employees like WFH.

But, here's one more example, straight out of the world of software.  A buddy of mine is a founding partner in what's now a mid-sized software shop, where he handles all of the hiring.  All of the core functions of their business could be done remotely, but they have a hard stance against regular WFH.  Their main reason is that a WFH company culture lacks the mentoring necessary to bring up new employees.  Their model is to hire smart people as college interns, who they then mentor into full time roles.  This allows them to have specialized employees who know exactly what's expected and how to do it.  Without this mentoring model, which happens both formally and informally, they'd be stuck hiring established software engineers for more money who may or may not do the job as expected, and who are much less open to feedback than a new intern or employee.  An in-person culture allows them to raise up their own employees, rather than going out to try to hire them.

I'll also add that one of the reasons I personally go to my office even when not required is to learn from those who are more senior how to do their jobs, and to mentor those who are coming up.  That culture of mentorship is one of the elements I like most about my work.

As I said, I'm not always anti-WFH, but I do think there are good reasons that you don't see major companies in any sector routinely going 100% WFH for their regular employees, much less their upper management.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 08:47:12 AM by caleb »

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2020, 07:31:43 AM »
I think it's safe to say you're firmly in the "anti-telework" camp, yes? I think that's fair, some people do prefer to work that way. However, I think it's important to recognize that there are other, arguably better, ways of accomplishing the same things that you do in-person, even if you're more comfortable doing it in-person.

For example: I think the distinction on "problems rather than tasks" is mostly meaningless. But to be sure I'm not misunderstanding you: I assume you'd define "problem" roughly as "work that involves open-ended questions with no concrete list of action items", eg project planning, while a "task" is something that does have a concrete list of steps, eg "answer customer email"? If my assumed definitions are correct, I think you're underestimating how easy it is nowadays to do the "problems" work remotely.

I think there are some large scale problems that are inherently human, and the closer you get people together - literally, sitting them around the smallest table possible - the better the problem solving process will go.


I don't agree.  Every time I'm in a small group in person, we never solve anything.  It gets solved when I sit at my computer and create a solution.  I've wasted months in these discussions sometimes.

Your example sounds like a very specific problem that required everyone to come in and sit together.  It also might disengage people who are introverts or aren't interrupters or the loudest person in the room.  And what about the other 38 hours of the week?

Your software company example...that sounds HIGHLY micromanaged.  If you bring everyone in from the ground up, where are the new ideas and innovation going to come from?  I just don't agree.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 07:35:08 AM by Daisyedwards800 »

nereo

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2020, 10:17:00 AM »
One thing i have learned from teaching college students is that there are many different styles of learning and of working. Some students (most likely a minority) work best under the "traditional" method of listening to a lecture and answering questions in a formal classroom setting.  Many others do better when they can work more in their own environment (e.g. take-home projects).  Some work great in groups (extroverts/"leaders") while others tend to get pushed to the side due to their personality even though they are sometimes the brightest, most prepared people in teh room (and often these are minorities and/or women).  Broadly speaking the larger the group, the less that gets done - though there are exceptions.

tl;dr -there's no "one best method" for learning, nor is there for work.  If a business insists on only allowing 9-5 in person employees they will miss out on some of the best workers, though it does take a crap-ton more work to provide different work environments.

Lucky13

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2020, 10:26:40 AM »
I can see both sides of this, but one thing to remember is not everyone has a nice home office setup. In my 20s I was renting a room in a house with roommates and would definitely be more productive at work. And would drive me crazy being in my little room all day. So if a company mandates work-from-home are they also going to pay to the costs of renting an additional bedroom for the office?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 01:08:01 PM by Lucky13 »

PDXTabs

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2020, 10:32:31 AM »
So if a company mandates work-from-home are they also going to pay to the costs of renting an additional bedroom for the office?

Many companies offer a work from home allowance, but usually only $150~200 per month. My boss offered me a WeWork membership if I needed it.

dignam

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2020, 11:12:45 AM »
Quote
I work on the engineering team for a small startup.  About half the engineers are remote, i.e. >1,000 miles away.  In my experience, it has been tremendously detrimental to our team's productivity.

Let me give you an example.  Two mechanical engineers, one local, one remote.  The local guy has some changes he needs remote guy to make.  If they were in the same place, the one guy could walk over to the other guy's office, point at something on the screen, and be done in 30 seconds.  With the geographical separation, the first guy has to take a screenshot or print something off, somehow annotate it, send it to the remote engineer, and hope it gets interpreted the right way.  Or fire up a video conference and try to explain it via webcam, and again hope it gets interpreted correctly.

I'm the lead software engineer for my company and couldn't agree more.  About half my team works remotely and it's about a 20-40% productivity hit for the entire team, although it's possible that if each member were measured individually they would appear more productive.

The biggest barrier is communication - especially when doing design and code review.  If I have questions and the programmer is in the office, I can call him in and point to the screen and get answers, explanations, and usually a resolution within 10 minutes.  This often involves pulling up screens, searching through other similar code, and the quick sketching of diagrams.  If the programmer is offsite, this easily takes an hour, frustratingly spread over several days.


By randomly calling people in to ask for help or with questions, you are interrupting that other person's productivity.  Sometimes it's better to work things out on your own, productivity wise than immediately have to walk into someone else's office or call them.  It may be a net loss in productivity for the team as a whole in your situation.

Do you know what code review is?  By definition it requires interaction with the developer who wrote the code.  And usually, at least in agile shops, this is near the end of the dev cycle near rollout and prompt responses are important.

My take is that I actually prefer to work near other people (I'm a software dev team lead, and an introvert at that!), and generally prefer to work in the office.  Occasional WFH is fine.  Our company is very relaxed on when/how much WFH you can do which is nice.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2020, 11:15:37 AM by dignam »

Daisyedwards800

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2020, 11:24:53 AM »
Yes I do.  But interrupting someone throughout the day is not productive for them.  If you are specifically going over something, then have that person be available for a few hours in person.  It's not necessary to have full time in the office workers.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2020, 02:06:08 PM »
Voila, no daycare bill.  Both parents are working about three days a week and getting paid for five.  They're not lazy, they just know what they can get away with and they maximize it for their advantage.

If their employer is satisfied with their output, I don't see a problem. Free market at its best (unless they work for an entity that's limited in its ability to fire them, in which case yes, it is a problem).

PDXTabs

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Re: Why isn't telecommuting more mandatory since it is a win-win-win?
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2020, 10:54:37 PM »
Do you know what code review is?  By definition it requires interaction with the developer who wrote the code.  And usually, at least in agile shops, this is near the end of the dev cycle near rollout and prompt responses are important.

I have code in Apple and IBM open source projects on GitHub. I never had to set foot into their offices, but I sure did have to go through a code review. Code reviews do not have to be face to face. Most, but not all, of the code reviews at my shop are done with a merge request and no realtime interaction. If you prefer real time interaction that's fine too, and works just fine on Slack.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2020, 11:53:29 AM by PDXTabs »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!