Why is saving and investing money seen as greedy and buying cars etc. not?

[Daisyedwards800]

This is what I wonder.  If I were to tell someone have $300,000 in the bank, they would look at me as if I got lucky or that it's my income that allowed me to do that.  They see me as different and even greedy.  But I have a 21 year old car, and have never even had a washing machine or elevator or dishwasher in my apartments.  So how could it be that I am the greedy one?

[Metalcat]

Start talking to different people???

Really though, people are going to judge you for shit because they want to judge you for shit. They just don't usually get to judge someone for actually having money, so it's a novelty for them when you talk about it.

Water off a duck's back, being judged is part of being human.

[Ann]

It’s unfair.  Although if you showed off a car that was >$100,000 I think people would assume you “got lucky or that it’s [your] income that allowed [you] to do that”.

My real answer is that frugal and cheap and miserly can sometimes appear similar. 

If you look at definition of a miser, it really does overlap with speedy-pants impression of a MMM-er

 (1)“ a person who hoards wealth and spends as little money as possible.”
This is a bit true.  The heart of Mustachism is to only spend money on things that are actually important or necessary to you. 

(2) “ a person who lives in wretched circumstances in order to save and hoard money.”
For spending-pants, some of the choices we make would be wretched for them.  And they simply don’t believe that it would led to a secure FIRE, so not having a job would be anxiety-inducing for some.

(3)” someone who has a great desire to possess money and hates to spend it, sometimes living like a poor person because of this”
An MMMer has a great desire for freedom, but a casual observer might only note the means and not the motivation.  And they would judge your external circumstances as living like a poor person.

If you want my analysis, I think (some) people associate MMM methods as miserly and they associate misers with greed and lacking generosity. 

I don’t think this is correct.  MUstachians can be some of the most generous people.

However, we do “put on our oxygen mask first”.  That is WHY we can be so generous later.  I sadly know people who do not follow this.  They kind, wonderful people with disastrous financial situations.  Neither is morally superior to the other but I know people on that gradient of unwise selflessness that have made remarks about other people’s lack of generosity towards a third party when, in my impression, it was just good boundaries.

[EndlessJourney]

This is what I wonder.  If I tell someone have $300,000 in the bank, they look at me as if I got lucky or that it's my income that allowed me to do that.  They see me as different and even greedy.  But I have a 21 year old car, and have never even had a washing machine or elevator or dishwasher in my apartments.  So how could it be that I am the greedy one?

Why would you tell someone you have $300,000 in the bank?

I'd imagine it's the same as driving a Ferrari and mentioning to everyone that it costs $300,000.

[Daisyedwards800]

I don't tell anyone that, but if I did it wouldn't have the same effect as someone posting on Facebook that they bought a $35,000 car.

[nereo]

1) I don't mention to anyone beyond a few very, very close people our savings.  I just... don't see the point.

2) our society prioritizes and highlights spending, not saving. Having two shiny leased cars parked in the driveway of your overly-large home while you uber to the airport for your week vacation is normal.  Living well below your means (and having the resulting savings) is not.

[Metalcat]

I don't tell anyone that, but if I did it wouldn't have the same effect as someone posting on Facebook that they bought a $35,000 car.

Trust me, the guy posting about buying a 35K car is being judged too depending on who's reading it.

[EndlessJourney]

I dunno, maybe it's me, but I don't see the point of anyone knowing how much I've saved *or* spent.

And if they do find out, what they think about it is of little consequence to me.

This is probably going to rub a few Mustachians the wrong way, but if you're going to be judge-y about clown cars and face-punching other people who spend money differently than you do, you'd better be prepared for the same thing directed your way for your spending/savings habits.

I'll show myself out now.

[BicycleB]

I don't tell anyone that, but if I did it wouldn't have the same effect as someone posting on Facebook that they bought a $35,000 car.

If you don't tell anyone, then how do you know they look at you funny?

(looks at Daisy)

:)

[ender]

Because people's understanding of money is wrong.

And because their perception of wealth is wrong, too.

[Bloop Bloop]

On most discussion forums I have been told that my retirement plan (of having a handful of paid-off properties by my 40s, which will enable me to retire off tenants' rents) is greedy. I just ignore those comments.

[Kyle Schuant]

It's an ancient instinct.

Historically, feudal kings would collect revenue, and much of that revenue was paid in kind - pigs, grain and so on. A large part of that revenue was returned to the people at feast times. You can read in Beowulf, a king was known as a "ring-giver" - gold arm bands. A king who was generous with their followers was a good king, a king who hoarded it was a bad one. This was part of the reason kings built bigger and bigger dwellings, eventually palaces - by paying their workers they were returning some of their wealth to the people, and of course their dwelling was to a large degree not private but public - people came to feasts, anyone could come to have the king hear disputes, etc.

Buying cars is perceived as spending your wealth and returning some of it to the community. Sitting on stocks and other investments is perceived as simply hoarding it.

And of course, there's vicarious enjoyment of wealth, too. Look at every popular Instagram account, it's got pictures of people partying on yachts, not pictures of people cutting coupons. People get secondhand pleasure from seeing the spending of the wealthy.

[Travis]

This is what I wonder.  If I tell someone have $300,000 in the bank, they look at me as if I got lucky or that it's my income that allowed me to do that.  They see me as different and even greedy.  But I have a 21 year old car, and have never even had a washing machine or elevator or dishwasher in my apartments.  So how could it be that I am the greedy one?

A large segment of the population has been conditioned to think anybody with more money than them are the bad guys.  Even if you're not outrageously wealthy and simply have your financial shit together somebody is going to hate on you.  Owning an expensive car might not get the same level of hate because we're also conditioned to believe everybody needs a car, therefore how much it costs or if it's far more car than you actually need is irrelevant and how dare you criticize their spending decisions!

[Focus_on_the_fire]

I dunno, maybe it's me, but I don't see the point of anyone knowing how much I've saved *or* spent.

And if they do find out, what they think about it is of little consequence to me.

This is probably going to rub a few Mustachians the wrong way, but if you're going to be judge-y about clown cars and face-punching other people who spend money differently than you do, you'd better be prepared for the same thing directed your way for your spending/savings habits.

I'll show myself out now.

+2 Nicely done. :)

[Buffaloski Boris]

“normal” is in debt, negative net worth, and a wage slave in perpetuity. Those of us who don’t live according to those norms are weird. Or aberrant. Or selfish. Or greedy.

I dunno. The disapproval of broke people sounds pretty good to me.

[Nate79]

Who cares what broke people think.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

[HBFIRE]

Why are you telling anyone you have 300 K in the bank?  I don't share my finances with anyone except my wife, business partner, and CPA.  No reason to share it with anyone else.  Stealth wealth is how to go.

[Metalcat]

Why are you telling anyone you have 300 K in the bank?  I don't share my finances with anyone except my wife, business partner, and CPA.  No reason to share it with anyone else.  Stealth wealth is how to go.

On the flip side, I'm pretty open about my finances, I just don't spend much time talking to judgemental assholes.

[Seadog]

This is what I wonder.  If I tell someone have $300,000 in the bank, they look at me as if I got lucky or that it's my income that allowed me to do that.  They see me as different and even greedy.  But I have a 21 year old car, and have never even had a washing machine or elevator or dishwasher in my apartments.  So how could it be that I am the greedy one?

A large segment of the population has been conditioned to think anybody with more money than them are the bad guys.  Even if you're not outrageously wealthy and simply have your financial shit together somebody is going to hate on you.  Owning an expensive car might not get the same level of hate because we're also conditioned to believe everybody needs a car, therefore how much it costs or if it's far more car than you actually need is irrelevant and how dare you criticize their spending decisions!

Don't even get me started. You can have two people who earn say $400k over 10 years, one of whom would have paid little, and potentially no net tax if they earned 40k/yr (after things like child benefits), spend it all on new cars and houses, and have a net worth of zero. Conversely, you have another who earned 400k over 1 year would lose close to half in tax, then if they eeked out an ERE lifestyle would continue contributing even more from dividend and cap gains tax, and still have a few hundred K.

Yet somehow, person number 1 is a victim, "just getting by", and person number 2 is the greedy rich person who needs to be taxed, despite earning the same, and contributing even more to the treasury, and for all intents and purposes having the same inputs.

What pisses me off the most about the whole thing is the hypocrisy of it, that the masses are too frigging blind to even see. If they made the same choices and sacrifices as guy #2, then they too could have been there, but they want it all. If you want a nice schedule and low stress job fine. If you want to have no schedule and living below the poverty line and save a small fortune, why do people act like there wasn't a sacrifice there?

Time after time people are saying "tax the rich", and "rich" always conveniently starts just higher than them. Meanwhile, even say someone in the second lowest quartile in Canada/US is probably in the world's top quartile, but their penchant for altruism never seems to extend beyond arbitrary lines drawn to their benefit. 

I think I brought this up before, but one time in the news a young girl was profiled who was on benefits. She also had a $1000 Canada Goose coat. From the backlash, she responded saying she bought the coat with her own hard earned money from a job she had lost, and hence, now needed gov't assistance. Thankfully at least a few of the commenters were able to think abstractly enough to see the big picture and realize that essentially the gov't had bought her the luxury coat. If you get $1k from earnings, and $1k from welfare, then buy $1k in food, and a $1k coat, does the timing and particular "buckets" the money came from really change anything? A more sensible person would have had 1k in earnings to buy 1k in food, and that would be it.

Like on the surface at least to me this is as obvious as being hit by a bus. Two ppl with $40k. One buys a car. One does not. Guy who bought the car says "I wish I had 40k like you. Maybe you should share your good fortune?"

/end rant

[BTDretire]

There are only 3 people that have any idea I have money, all 3 are my breakfast buddies. One, because we talk a lot about money and I suspect he has more than I do, and two others because I happened to mention the free trades at Vanguard, and that turned into a quiz show for one of those two. None of them have a known amount, they just know, I don't need to work. I'm not sure one of my breakfast buddies has a large net worth, but he inherited gas wells and the monthly check he gets is large, he has no financial worries. btw, he's in his 90's and doing well. :-)
 

[Phenix]

I had a couple friends at work ask me shortly after I got my promotion if I was going to be trading in my "old Accord" to get something better.  It's a 2012 Accord!  By far the nicest car I've ever owned.  It's funny that, in America at least, people associate a promotion with buying a better car or bigger house.

[nereo]

I had a couple friends at work ask me shortly after I got my promotion if I was going to be trading in my "old Accord" to get something better.  It's a 2012 Accord!  By far the nicest car I've ever owned.  It's funny that, in America at least, people associate a promotion with buying a better car or bigger house.

Similar story - the same people who rag on us for driving a well-maintained, low(ish) mileage 2006 car naturally expected us to go out and get a new one shortly after spouse got her new job.  These are the same people that bemoan being in debt with no savings after a decade+ of solidly middle-class jobs. 

Ironically, they don’t notice the correlation between having expensive new things and not having money.

[thesis]

I totally understand where the OP is coming from, but I think somebody else answered it pretty well: this happens because people don't think correctly about money.

There is probably some psychology behind this, too. After all, it's way more comforting to blame others for your problems than it is to accept that your lack of money is your own fault. So there are people who makes loads of money and spend it all, then blame the rich for why they're barely getting by.

On the one hand, these attitudes toward money frustrate me, but on the other hand I have to ask myself, "What did I really expect?"

(I suspect these attitudes could be reflected in other areas, too, such as fitness. I'm sure fit people find themselves rolling their eyes at the things unfit people say)

[nereo]

(I suspect these attitudes could be reflected in other areas, too, such as fitness. I'm sure fit people find themselves rolling their eyes at the things unfit people say)

Well since you mentioned it...  I was a NCAA athlete and nationally ranked swimmer (though never in the top 25).  Throughout my life people have frequently complained that there’s some inherent ‘unfairness’ to me being fit, to my high metabolism, even to my ability to swim faster, further and more efficiently than they can.  I spent 18 **years** training every day - often twice a day - to become reach that level.  I long ago passed the “10,000 hour threshold” which has been hailed as a milestone to become a ‘master’ in any particular field.

I’m not fit* or fast or efficient through some genetic quirk or random stroke of luck. I’m that way because I’ve spent a crap-ton of time and energy getting to that point.

*disclosure: today I consider myself ‘fat and out of shape’ even though I’m in the supposed ideal range for my height.  However my swimming has gone from 6 days per week to 2 or 3, and the intensity of my workouts has gone from extreme to downright lackadaisical.

[partgypsy]

Yeah maybe hang out with different people? Most people I know if I said at my age I had X, would think that was not very much considering my age and job, and that I must be a slacker.

My Dad would like to talk about how much people made, etc. If you got your money honestly or by hard work it was admirable to have saved the money. The only people I saw get his scorn, was a person who had bought apartment buildings with the promise of maintaining them and the low rent status of the members. Once he bought them he evicted everyone, tore down the buildings and built a high rise making millions. If you got it by cheating or screwing over other people, disgust.

 

[HBFIRE]

On the flip side, I'm pretty open about my finances, I just don't spend much time talking to judgemental assholes.

I assume everyone is judgmental by default otherwise I end up disappointed.  If there's anything I've learned in life it's that you never really know people.

[mathlete]

Why would you tell someone that you have $300,000 in the bank? If you're going around telling people about how rich you are, you're opening yourself up to judgement. Maybe some of it is based on your accumulation of wealth. But most of it is probably based on the fact that you're the kind of person who tells people that they have $300,000 in the bank.

[Metalcat]

On the flip side, I'm pretty open about my finances, I just don't spend much time talking to judgemental assholes.

I assume everyone is judgmental by default otherwise I end up disappointed.  If there's anything I've learned in life it's that you never really know people.

Fair enough, I should say that I know that pretty much everyone is judgemental, but I train people to not be with me by making it very unpleasant/uncomfortable for them if they are.

[Bloop Bloop]

If you hang out with people who are happy with their lives and who are successful (not necessarily financially, but in whatever sphere is important to them) as you are, it is rare that you would encounter judgment as long as you are being genuine in being yourself.

It is a good way to drop negative people out of your life and focus your energy on like-minded friends and colleagues.

[Travis]

*disclosure: today I consider myself ‘fat and out of shape’ even though I’m in the supposed ideal range for my height.  However my swimming has gone from 6 days per week to 2 or 3, and the intensity of my workouts has gone from extreme to downright lackadaisical.

Swimming 2-3 days per week you're probably still in incredible shape compared to the rest of your demographic.  Equally, I would guess someone with a passing familiarity with their finances is in better shape than most.

[nancyfrank232]

Why would you tell someone that you have $300,000 in the bank? If you're going around telling people about how rich you are, you're opening yourself up to judgement. Maybe some of it is based on your accumulation of wealth. But most of it is probably based on the fact that you're the kind of person who tells people that they have $300,000 in the bank.

+1 This

Why would the OP feel the need to tell people that they have $300k in the bank?

Don’t tell people that you have $300k in the bank. Problem solved

[dogboyslim]

So am I the only one wondering why you would keep $300k in the BANK??????  There are better options!

[Daisyedwards800]

Why would you tell someone that you have $300,000 in the bank? If you're going around telling people about how rich you are, you're opening yourself up to judgement. Maybe some of it is based on your accumulation of wealth. But most of it is probably based on the fact that you're the kind of person who tells people that they have $300,000 in the bank.

I do not tell them.  It's a hypothetical circumstance.

[mathlete]

I do not tell them.  It's a hypothetical circumstance.

Oh okay. Gotcha.

I don't think most would see you as greedy if they simply knew you had the money. But if a hypothetical person went around telling people they had the money, that might change the narrative.

Another thing is, it may recontextualize past stinginess. That doesn't necessarily make the hypothetical person "greedy" but it could affect the perception.

[HBFIRE]

So am I the only one wondering why you would keep $300k in the BANK??????  There are better options!

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Berkshire Hathaway right now is hording $122 billion in cash.  Many very very wealthy hold onto a good size cash position for opportunity investing.  300 K might represent only 5% of their portfolio.  Whether or no it's smart is tough to say.

[nereo]

So am I the only one wondering why you would keep $300k in the BANK??????  There are better options!

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Berkshire Hathaway right now is hording $122 billion in cash.  Many very very wealthy hold onto a good size cash position for opportunity investing.  300 K might represent only 5% of their portfolio.  Whether or no it's smart is tough to say.

Berkshire Hathaway isn't holding on to so much cash because they want to wait for a good opportunity to come by, they are holding onto it because there are so few opportunities which come by that can 'move the needle' when you have gotten that large.  Charlie Munger frequently bemoans the fact that they are unable to find enough investment opportunities to put that cash to work.

[HBFIRE]

Berkshire Hathaway isn't holding on to so much cash because they want to wait for a good opportunity to come by, they are holding onto it because there are so few opportunities which come by that can 'move the needle' when you have gotten that large.  Charlie Munger frequently bemoans the fact that they are unable to find enough investment opportunities to put that cash to work.

Right, but the same principle is at play is my point -- they are looking for a good price and the right time to buy.  It represents a small percentage of total worth.  I don't necessarily recommend this approach as a personal investor, but it's a similar line of logic.

[Car Jack]

What everyone seems to have missed......why are you holding $300k in the bank?  Is there a reason that's not invested?  Or is that the amount in your emergency fund needed to allow you to sleep at night?

[DadJokes]

What everyone seems to have missed......why are you holding $300k in the bank?  Is there a reason that's not invested?  Or is that the amount in your emergency fund needed to allow you to sleep at night?

You missed where OP said that it was just a hypothetical scenario.

[nancyfrank232]

Berkshire Hathaway isn't holding on to so much cash because they want to wait for a good opportunity to come by, they are holding onto it because there are so few opportunities which come by that can 'move the needle' when you have gotten that large.  Charlie Munger frequently bemoans the fact that they are unable to find enough investment opportunities to put that cash to work.

Right, but the same principle is at play is my point -- they are looking for a good price and the right time to buy.  It represents a small percentage of total worth.  I don't necessarily recommend this approach as a personal investor, but it's a similar line of logic.

I agree

Personally I actually do recommend this. I will stockpile cash after retirement/pension accounts are topped. It’s not for everyone, but the cash comes in handy during downturns

[Laura33]

I think I brought this up before, but one time in the news a young girl was profiled who was on benefits. She also had a $1000 Canada Goose coat. From the backlash, she responded saying she bought the coat with her own hard earned money from a job she had lost, and hence, now needed gov't assistance. Thankfully at least a few of the commenters were able to think abstractly enough to see the big picture and realize that essentially the gov't had bought her the luxury coat. If you get $1k from earnings, and $1k from welfare, then buy $1k in food, and a $1k coat, does the timing and particular "buckets" the money came from really change anything? A more sensible person would have had 1k in earnings to buy 1k in food, and that would be it.

The buckets are irrelevant, yes, but the timing does matter.  If she bought the coat while she was gainfully employed and expected to remain that way, then you can't fault her for continuing to own it after she later lost the job and required government assistance; no one can predict the future, and it's not like she could return it and get her money back when the job went away.  Now, you can fault her for the ridiculousness of the coat itself, but that's not the same thing as the government "buying" the coat for her (i.e., her buying it after going on government assistance).

On the original topic, I think people tend to be very resistant to the idea that someone else might have been able to accomplish something that they didn't themselves by making different choices, working harder, taking different jobs, spending less on stuff, etc.  That tends to bruise the ego, so it's much easier and more face-saving to find some reason to criticize the other person's choice -- sort of a "well, I didn't want that anyway" thing. 

But I also think the premise is wrong, because that kind of judgment does go both ways.  Talk to serious environmentalists, and they will tell you that buying cars is selfish and greedy, because it's putting your own comfort ahead of the needs of the entire planet.

[nancyfrank232]

But I also think the premise is wrong, because that kind of judgment does go both ways.  Talk to serious environmentalists, and they will tell you that buying cars is selfish and greedy, because it's putting your own comfort ahead of the needs of the entire planet.

It’s definitely a slippery slope as some argue that having kids is selfish because it puts a person’s desire ahead of the needs of an overpopulated planet when there are many orphans and children in need of adoption

[mathlete]

"Greedy" is pretty context sensitive too. On a global scale, I have no issues being called greedy. I horde resources far beyond what I need to be comfortable just so that one day, I may be able to quit during my prime working years if I want to. And I can do that because of opportunities that I have that were deprived of most people in the world. There are other uses of my money that are undeniably better or would serve to make the world a more equitable place to live.

So if a starving kid in the third world said I was greedy, I'd have to agree. If a coworker said so because I didn't feel like buying girl scout cookies this year, and they know about how much money I make. I'd be more inclined to roll my eyes.

[Wrenchturner]

Spending could be interpreted as charity for the economy in a perverted way.  So if you aren't spending, you're guilty of hoarding at the expense of others.  And if you have the nerve to take responsibility for your own financial well being, it damages the illusion that society owes them a standard of living.

[DadJokes]

Spending could be interpreted as charity for the economy in a perverted way.  So if you aren't spending, you're guilty of hoarding at the expense of others.  And if you have the nerve to take responsibility for your own financial well being, it damages the illusion that society owes them a standard of living.

If you are investing the money, you are putting it into a different side of the economy. You can claim to be a supply-side spender.

[Wrenchturner]

Spending could be interpreted as charity for the economy in a perverted way.  So if you aren't spending, you're guilty of hoarding at the expense of others.  And if you have the nerve to take responsibility for your own financial well being, it damages the illusion that society owes them a standard of living.

If you are investing the money, you are putting it into a different side of the economy. You can claim to be a supply-side spender.

Very true.

[js82]

I must have missed the part where investors were viewed as greedy by society as a whole.  Unless you're talking about the >$50 million, super-rich, "I need a tax cut so I can buy another Maserati" stereotype.

I've never seen "Millionaire next door" types who save and invest on normal incomes described as greedy.  Then again, most people in that mold(including on these forums) are just a bit more frugal with their money because they're playing the long game.  They don't call attention to themselves, so they don't get judged.


Blatantly flaunting one's wealth (which generally requires consumption) is viewed far more negatively than being thrifty by most people. And by flaunting, I don't mean buying nice stuff with your budget for your own use, I mean "I'm driving my Lamborghini to work, getting 3 mpg while I idle my 600 hp engine in stop-and-go city traffic BECAUSE I CAN.  LOOK AT MY LAMBO, DAMN YOU!".

[Bloop Bloop]

I must have missed the part where investors were viewed as greedy by society as a whole.  Unless you're talking about the >$50 million, super-rich, "I need a tax cut so I can buy another Maserati" stereotype.

I've never seen "Millionaire next door" types who save and invest on normal incomes described as greedy.  Then again, most people in that mold(including on these forums) are just a bit more frugal with their money because they're playing the long game.  They don't call attention to themselves, so they don't get judged.


Blatantly flaunting one's wealth (which generally requires consumption) is viewed far more negatively than being thrifty by most people. And by flaunting, I don't mean buying nice stuff with your budget for your own use, I mean "I'm driving my Lamborghini to work, getting 3 mpg while I idle my 600 hp engine in stop-and-go city traffic BECAUSE I CAN.  LOOK AT MY LAMBO, DAMN YOU!".

It doesn't happen on this forum, but on other discussion groups I browse, the notion of wanting to retire early via rent-seeking is often said to be greedy, particularly by the "typical" left-wing, young-ish, Internet demographic. The usual refrain is that we can't all own a handful of investment properties, therefore it's a selfish and unsustainable practice to aspire towards.

[HBFIRE]

It doesn't happen on this forum, but on other discussion groups I browse, the notion of wanting to retire early via rent-seeking is often said to be greedy.

Curious to know why they think rent seeking is part of FIRE. 

[Bloop Bloop]

I mean rent-seeking as in literally seeking rent, not the economic definition where there is an element over and above of trying to capture a market or unfair advantage. Although in reality the line is often blurred.