Author Topic: Why is it rude to talk about money?  (Read 24757 times)

galliver

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Why is it rude to talk about money?
« on: September 11, 2013, 03:20:06 PM »
I had to write an email today asking when the funds from a small fellowship I won would be disbursed. It's not my main financial support (I'm a TA this semester) so it wasn't exactly a big deal, but the money was promised to me last spring and hadn't been discussed since, so I wondered when and how it was coming.

It was kind of an awkward conversation to initiate. Which got me thinking, we (societally) have some very weird standards about when it's ok to talk about money.

For example, I was taught that it's quite rude to mention how much you make; I've also heard (not sure exactly about this) that it's in the contract at some companies NOT to talk about wages with other employees! This seems so exploitative; how else would you find out you're grossly underpaid while doing the same work as someone else?

I also have the impression that for most young people, it's really hard to go into their first salary negotiation. Certainly something I'm not looking forward to in a few years. I would imagine it's part of the same code; one against coming off entitled or greedy.

I'm sure a lot of this depends on upbringing and maybe even on the field of employment (in academia you're "supposed" to be driven by passion for the work, after all, not the paycheck!). I'm just wondering what other people's experiences are with this.

marty998

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 04:11:16 PM »

For example, I was taught that it's quite rude to mention how much you make; I've also heard (not sure exactly about this) that it's in the contract at some companies NOT to talk about wages with other employees! This seems so exploitative; how else would you find out you're grossly underpaid while doing the same work as someone else?


Yep...thats just the way HR like it. Information vacuum is best for all in their opinion.

When discussing (no) salary increases, the latest craze these days is for HR and Management to tell their employees (1) be grateful for a job, it's a tough market or (2) the pay is augmented by "a great, "flexible" working environment" with "lots of non-cash benefits".

I find it hard to discuss salary specifics with my colleagues. Purely because in any dialogue on this 1 of you is guaranteed to walk away embarrassed or angry. You're better off not having the discussion.

2527

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 05:00:56 PM »
That's one of the things I really like about this website.  Even if we inadvertently rub each other the wrong way sometimes talking about money, we aren't friends or relatives or co-workers in 3D Land.

MrsPete

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 07:07:10 PM »
WHY? 

I say it's because it's rude to discuss anything that makes other people feel uncomfortable.  That's why you don't discuss the details of your recent operation at the dinner table, or why you avoid politics with your co-worker whom you know has vastly differing views from your own.  Money is a subject that tends to make people feel uncomfortable.  Either you earn more, and they feel bad about themselves; or you earn less, and they pity you.  Variations on the theme abound. 

Exceptions abound, of course, this board being one of them.  People come here knowing that money IS the topic, so if someone feels uncomfortable, he walked into it knowingly. 

hybrid

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 08:37:24 PM »
WHY? 

I say it's because it's rude to discuss anything that makes other people feel uncomfortable.  That's why you don't discuss the details of your recent operation at the dinner table, or why you avoid politics with your co-worker whom you know has vastly differing views from your own.  Money is a subject that tends to make people feel uncomfortable.  Either you earn more, and they feel bad about themselves; or you earn less, and they pity you.  Variations on the theme abound. 

Exceptions abound, of course, this board being one of them.  People come here knowing that money IS the topic, so if someone feels uncomfortable, he walked into it knowingly.

Yep, that's the gist of it.  There are some people (not many, fortunately) I will not mention this site to because I know the conversation will get very uncomfortable very quickly.  Not that they couldn't use the advice, but because they won't be receptive to it.

There are just some places you don't go in conversation.  But blogs like these are changing some of those old conventions.

Insanity

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2013, 09:15:22 PM »
why you avoid politics with your co-worker whom you know has vastly differing views from your own.

Are you kidding?  I loved doing this with one of my co-workers!  It was awesome to see him go on rants :)

desk_jockey

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 09:48:04 PM »
It is very much a cultural thing.  A Korean friend once during a visit to the States asked me how much I earned.  I made an evasive joke to avoid the question.  She got offended at my laughing (uncomfortably). Said what’s the big deal and that she and her coworkers all know what each other make.   I was uncomfortable that she even dared to ask the question.    She had trouble believing that I didn’t even know how much my brother earns.

martynthewolf

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 01:51:00 AM »
why you avoid politics with your co-worker whom you know has vastly differing views from your own.

Are you kidding?  I loved doing this with one of my co-workers!  It was awesome to see him go on rants :)

Heh, I enjoyed doing this to a guy I used to work with. Always got him to rant on the theme of immigration, "send em all home" etc, etc. "Stealing al our jobs" blah blah blah. He disappeared one day at work and never came back. Don't know what happened to him.

Silvie

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 01:59:43 AM »
It is very much a cultural thing.  A Korean friend once during a visit to the States asked me how much I earned.  I made an evasive joke to avoid the question.  She got offended at my laughing (uncomfortably). Said what’s the big deal and that she and her coworkers all know what each other make.   I was uncomfortable that she even dared to ask the question.    She had trouble believing that I didn’t even know how much my brother earns.

I agree. I know how much my sister and my dad make, I asked a co-worker once. But I think it also has to do with how some people are raised. In my family for instance, we talk very openly about money, while for my boyfriend and his parents that doesn't seem to be the case.

lbdance

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 02:54:21 AM »
As an employer we recommend to our staff not to talk to others about their pay rates. One of the reasons for this is that some staff have inflated ideas about their skills and ability and want to be paid the same as someone else, when they don't do the work to deserve it.
However as at managerial level we review all rates annual to try and ensure a balance.

In general, I don't like to talk about how much I earn. I would be happy to talk to others about what I am doing with my money, e.g. paying off the house, saving for xyz, trying to spend less on groceries, as most other people I talk to are in a similar boat.

Half-Borg

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2013, 04:09:53 AM »
I know want my friends of the same age in the same business make. We all had that moment, when nobody knows how much pay to expect, so it's easy to share.
My co-workers are all very uncomfortable talking about income, so I don't. But I'm sure I'm earning less than everyone else, because I have less working experience.

Left

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2013, 04:36:58 AM »
I talk about money regularly with coworkers, they know I save, and I know they don't. And we are both happy with each of our own choices. They like being in debt for having things they can't afford, and I like not being in debt...

I ask about what they make once in a while, not on a normal basis since it doesn't change regularly enough to need to ask often. Maybe once in 5 years,?

Micheal

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2013, 05:30:25 AM »
At the mega corporation where I work we actually publish the titles of the staff who are on career ladders.  The title maps back to a pay salary grade.  Salary grade have a wide range but at least everyone knows everyone else's level.  Transparent!

transparent as mud ^^.  Once you add in perks, stock ops, vacation, negotiated salary differences, ect.

CommonCents

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2013, 07:58:10 AM »
There are a lot of things that are personal information.  Some people may share plans for kids, but I don't tell my family to avoid pressure and my work to avoid problems.  Most people won't widely share about infertility, plans to adopt, miscarriages, etc.  (After college,) most people don't share information about what happens between the sheets.  Most people keep health information to themselves as well, sometimes sharing with friends and family, but not always and often not with coworkers because it could be used against you.

Money just happens to be one more item on this list too.  It's not necessarily part of our public life.  People can get jealous of friends or coworkers if they know too much information, resentful, etc.  I share some finance information with family (such as salary), but even they don't know exactly how much we've saved. 

That said, I'm not sure why you'd have difficulty writing to ask about a disbursement of a promised sum.  Perhaps that was more to the uncomfortableness of following up on an unfullfilled promise than the uncomfortableness of a money discussion.

pachnik

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2013, 10:19:24 AM »
I have to agree that discussing money with others can be difficult and not a good idea.  Like someone said up thread, if you talk about your salary to a co-worker, someone will leave that discussion feeling hurt.  I wouldn't even tell people if I went to ask for a raise. 

I do discuss money with my SO in detail and my parents also.  If my parents asked me how much I had in the bank I wouldn't hesitate to tell them.  Of course, I am close with them.  I told them a bit about this website but they aren't interested since they are frugal and in their mid-70s.  I am sure that they are happy that I have become more sensible with my money.  They highly recommended that I see their financial planner to invest the proceeds from the sale of my apartment which I did. 

I also have a close friend who is quite Mustachian in her own ways and we discuss money a bit.  Topics such as investments, financial planners, clothes swapping, buying/selling stuff on Craigslist come up easily enough for us. 

These are the people that I can talk about money with other than those on this website.  I really enjoy this website for the frank discussion we have and the suggestions which are good too.   At this point, I feel too inexperienced to offer suggestions but I am happy to cheer people's successes. 
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 10:26:40 AM by pachnik »

hybrid

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2013, 10:50:21 AM »
Genrally speaking....

Person A is comfortable and Person B is comfortable and A and B don't work at same employer and both parties are discrete - OK
Person A is comfortable and Person B is comfortable and A and B don't work at same employer and one of them can't keep their big mouth shut - not OK
Person A is comfortable and Person B is comfortable and A and B work at same employer - usually not OK
Person A is uncomfortable and Person B is comfortable - not OK
Person A is comfortable and Person B is uncomfortable - not OK
Person A is uncomfortable and Person B is uncomfortable - not OK, and good chances one or both own a cat (I kid!  I kid!  I own a cat!)

You see what I am getting at.  Salary is a sensitive subject matter.  I do talk in very frank terms about personal finances with my inner circle because we give each other constructive feedback, but only with that inner circle.  And even then the amount I make is typically left out, what I am doing with our money is usually the topic (like another poster mentioned).

galliver

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2013, 11:43:14 AM »
I like the conversation this generated!

I wasn't trying to imply that we should shout our salaries and net worth from the rooftops 24/7. There's a way to talk about anything that sounds like bragging and that's not ok. But I get the sense that sometimes we avoid money conversations just because they're money conversations. Maybe it's upbringing and culture related like someone mentioned. We didn't talk much about money and finances with my family. It's still a little weird to mention, but getting easier. It's never been weird with my boyfriend or close friends. It's not like we constantly bring it up, but when it does come up, no one is shy. Also with grad student friends; the pay rate is set, so we basically know what most people are paid.

I think the reason I felt weird asking about the fellowship was that (a) I hadn't asked about any other part of the program (because we had talked extensively about it!) and (b) because unlike a paycheck or travel reimbursement that is owed, we hadn't actually done any of the work related to the program yet. So it's like asking for money you haven't earned (yet). I mentally knew I should (and I did), it just felt weird!

Deimyts

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2013, 12:10:10 PM »
Quote
Person A is comfortable and Person B is comfortable and A and B work at same employer - usually not OK

It's this scenario that bothers me most. If the two people are comfortable, I don't think it is the employer's business if they talk about their pay or not. If there's a discrepancy, either the company is hoping to save some money because they can get away with paying someone less than they're worth, or there's a problem with one employee not being as productive or effective as the other. And I'd bet in most cases, it's the first scenario. If it is actually the second, it still doesn't seem like the company benefits by not confronting the employee about his productivity issues and having a frank discussion about pay and how it relates to their output. If their pay isn't tied to their performance, then that's also a problem which the employee deserves to know about.

Vitai Slade

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 01:00:51 PM »
I work in the casino industry where you receive tokes (tips) as the main portion of your income. Recently, we had a new rule instituted at the tip out line (where the cage counts down your tokes to put onto your check every week) where you must wait around the corner until it is your turn to tip out because of people complaining about others looking to see how much they made.

What's the big deal? We all do the EXACT SAME JOB!! Are you seriously mad because someone is looking over to see if you made $20 more or less than them? So mad that you complain to management to have a new rule put in place about this? SERIOUSLY?

*Shakes head*

mpbaker22

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 01:19:25 PM »
Quote
Person A is comfortable and Person B is comfortable and A and B work at same employer - usually not OK

It's this scenario that bothers me most. If the two people are comfortable, I don't think it is the employer's business if they talk about their pay or not. If there's a discrepancy, either the company is hoping to save some money because they can get away with paying someone less than they're worth, or there's a problem with one employee not being as productive or effective as the other. And I'd bet in most cases, it's the first scenario. If it is actually the second, it still doesn't seem like the company benefits by not confronting the employee about his productivity issues and having a frank discussion about pay and how it relates to their output. If their pay isn't tied to their performance, then that's also a problem which the employee deserves to know about.

+1

Last pay raise period, my manager explicitly asked I not discuss with teammates or other people at the company.  I think if the same line is used next time, I'm actually going to question it and ask why not.  It's pretty obvious that it's a method to keep people's salaries lower by keeping everyone content.

Even though I'm not that productive, (because I have a really low work-load, and I'm already going beyond my job description), I'm still annoyed that the person next to me makes 3x what I do.  That, despite the fact that I hand-hold all day every day.  This includes things like teaching her how to use 'fox fire.'

Albert

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2013, 01:19:32 PM »
I wouldn't talk about how much I earn with co-workers unless they also double a fairly close friends. But then again the approximate number is known to many because in our company there is not that much variation once you account for department, work level and time in the company.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 01:21:07 PM by Albert »

CommonCents

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2013, 02:59:09 PM »
I should add I'm a state employee.  Thanks to transparent govt, anyone, even you, can look up what I make, including any extra from my annual pay due to overtime or reduction due to sickness etc.  The pay schedule is also available.  Do I find it a bit weird to know that much?  Yes.  Do I rather hope my friends won't look me up?  Yes.  It's like them looking to see what color of underwear I'm wearing.  I might not mind telling them, but I don't want them to look for themselves. 

SnackDog

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2013, 04:19:47 PM »
In Norway the government publishes the tax rolls every year, including the income and net worth of each tax filer.  Works for me.

Roses

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2013, 07:52:24 PM »
It is very much a cultural thing.  A Korean friend once during a visit to the States asked me how much I earned.  I made an evasive joke to avoid the question.  She got offended at my laughing (uncomfortably). Said what’s the big deal and that she and her coworkers all know what each other make.   I was uncomfortable that she even dared to ask the question.    She had trouble believing that I didn’t even know how much my brother earns.

I agree. I know how much my sister and my dad make, I asked a co-worker once. But I think it also has to do with how some people are raised. In my family for instance, we talk very openly about money, while for my boyfriend and his parents that doesn't seem to be the case.

Yep, when my visited friends in Turkey a few years ago one of the first questions the Turkish men asked the men in our group was how much they made.  We didn't get the feeling that it was a one-upping thing since they were so sincerely nice and hospitable but it still threw off us Americans.  I've had the same experience with people from other countries living here.

I used to be a contractor for a huge tech firm working on language-related software.  I was in a little cohort where everyone did the exact same job but each in a different language, hence everyone was from another country.  We immediately started comparing hourly rates which was extremely beneficial for negotiating our contracts (had to be done rather often due to the short-term nature of the assignments).  It turned out that even though we all had almost identical skills and similar years of experience, everyone was making within a few bucks of each other but the difference was just in how much we each negotiated.  Very eye opening and totally unfair.

Osprey

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2013, 11:49:12 PM »
I had to sign a contract on employment stating that I would not talk about my pay, and I'm working for the government where everyone slots onto a ladder! The only reason I can think of for this is that some people get deliberately left to stagnate on their rung, or get denied benefits. So I am going to make a point of negotiating my salary as often as possible, in case they try to do that to me.

grantmeaname

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2013, 05:47:10 AM »
It turned out that even though we all had almost identical skills and similar years of experience, everyone was making within a few bucks of each other but the difference was just in how much we each negotiated.  Very eye opening and totally unfair.
How's that unfair? Presumably if you weren't okay with the first offer you would say something about it and the company would return with a higher one.

DocCyane

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2013, 06:11:43 AM »
I work for a small company and knowing salaries would not be a good idea. There are some people who have been there a decade or more and they would be quite upset to know what I make.

But their perception is that we both work the same 9 hours. My perception is that they have a high school diploma and can only contribute so much, whereas I have a PhD and have increased the value of my department to the company in quantifiable ways resulting in huge profits.

Concurrently, I realize the salesmen we have are on the road nearly all the time, so I don't begrudge them higher salaries and better benefits because their life is essentially work.

The point is people can get soured quickly if they think they are being treated unfairly at work. They will steal and they will break things, etc. Salaries by and large aren't close to fair. In the end, for the sake of the company and to get along with coworkers, it's best to keep it to yourself.

hybrid

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2013, 07:28:08 AM »
I was very deliberate when I used the word usually below....  This is one of those YMMV areas.

Person A is comfortable and Person B is comfortable and A and B work at same employer - usually not OK

At my last job I worked for the state where all salaries were known.  That public knowledge did not create a healthier work environment, probably worse actually.  I was hired at the same time as another guy with a lot more experience years than me, and his salary was much higher than mine and several others in the department as a result.  When people started observing that he was underperforming compared to his peers, it created a lot of resentment because we all knew how much he was being compensated in addition to his not pulling his weight.

At my current job at a law firm I am the sole sysadmin, meaning I have access to every single file that exists.  My boss was very straightforward when I arrived years ago.  Go snooping into the payroll files and you will be seeking employment elsewhere.  And don't discuss salary, period.  Sounds harsh, but there are very good reasons for this policy I won't get into on these boards.  I have zero problems with an environment where salary is not discussed.
 

mpbaker22

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2013, 07:49:33 AM »
I work for a small company and knowing salaries would not be a good idea. There are some people who have been there a decade or more and they would be quite upset to know what I make.

But their perception is that we both work the same 9 hours. My perception is that they have a high school diploma and can only contribute so much, whereas I have a PhD and have increased the value of my department to the company in quantifiable ways resulting in huge profits.

Concurrently, I realize the salesmen we have are on the road nearly all the time, so I don't begrudge them higher salaries and better benefits because their life is essentially work.

The point is people can get soured quickly if they think they are being treated unfairly at work. They will steal and they will break things, etc. Salaries by and large aren't close to fair. In the end, for the sake of the company and to get along with coworkers, it's best for the company to keep it to yourself.

Added some words to your post showing what you really mean.  The entire post speaks to why it's good for employers when employees don't share salaries.  Then, you say it's best to keep it to yourself.  You didn't specify who it's best for, but it's not best for me to keep it to myself.

Ultimately, not knowing each other's salary contributes to information asymmetry between employees and employers that keeps wages down.

ace1224

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2013, 08:05:05 AM »
we talk about money all the time at work, but i think its only because my company has a north american policy that all paygrade levels are the same no matter education or experience. 
for example, i am a paygrade 7 i have been here for 7 years, if my lab partner were to quit and we hired a new person straight out of school they would be a paygrade 7 and make exactly what i make.  i have an mba on top of my undergrad, my lab partner does not, we make the same.

DocCyane

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2013, 08:34:48 AM »
I work for a small company and knowing salaries would not be a good idea. There are some people who have been there a decade or more and they would be quite upset to know what I make.

But their perception is that we both work the same 9 hours. My perception is that they have a high school diploma and can only contribute so much, whereas I have a PhD and have increased the value of my department to the company in quantifiable ways resulting in huge profits.

Concurrently, I realize the salesmen we have are on the road nearly all the time, so I don't begrudge them higher salaries and better benefits because their life is essentially work.

The point is people can get soured quickly if they think they are being treated unfairly at work. They will steal and they will break things, etc. Salaries by and large aren't close to fair. In the end, for the sake of the company and to get along with coworkers, it's best for the company to keep it to yourself.

Added some words to your post showing what you really mean.  The entire post speaks to why it's good for employers when employees don't share salaries.  Then, you say it's best to keep it to yourself.  You didn't specify who it's best for, but it's not best for me to keep it to myself.

Ultimately, not knowing each other's salary contributes to information asymmetry between employees and employers that keeps wages down.

No, that's not what I really mean. What I mean is it's best for both employers and employees to keep salary information private.

As I stated, you need cooperation and harmony among coworkers, and people can get disgruntled quickly if they feel someone is receiving undeserved remuneration. Unfortunately we have a tendency as humans to greatly overvalue our contributions and undervalue those of others.

Moreover, if we value something like education while someone else values "long hours", we are measuring with a different ruler and coming to different conclusions about what someone deserves to be paid.

Samsam

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2013, 08:48:36 AM »
I wish my coworkers would adhere to the no talking about payroll, reviews, and other benefits.  I started my full time position a year ago with a whole bunch of other young 20 somethings straight out of college.  Word got out in the first month that we all didn't make the same amount of money and they found out that I make more (I have no idea how they found out though because I never told anyone other than my parents).  Ever since, its always like "well you should pay for the drinks when we go out since you make more than us".  "oh well you don't understand my budget since you make more than I do". 

It got to the point where my coworkers were so worried about their reviews and who was going to get bonuses that instead of working as a team it was a free for all!  It was a terrible work environment.  They would hoard work that they couldn't get done on time because they thought doing more would make them look better (it didn't in their cases).  And now come review time everyone is all pissy because as DocCyane said, "we have a tendency as humans to greatly overvalue our contributions and undervalue those of others". 

galliver

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2013, 09:42:22 AM »
It turned out that even though we all had almost identical skills and similar years of experience, everyone was making within a few bucks of each other but the difference was just in how much we each negotiated.  Very eye opening and totally unfair.
How's that unfair? Presumably if you weren't okay with the first offer you would say something about it and the company would return with a higher one.

Because negotiation isn't a universal skill, some people are better at it than others, and it may have NOTHING to do with their fitness for the job and value to the company. And what does "okay with an offer" even mean. Maybe it's your only offer and while you might like or think you deserve a higher salary, you don't want to risk losing the offer entirely, and being a mustachian you know you can get by quite happily on what you are offered. Or  maybe, because there is so much secrecy about wages, you don't even KNOW what fair market value is for your skills and time. Less likely with Glassdoor, etc, but if we take this "don't talk about money" convention to the extreme, that would be the case.

galliver

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2013, 09:46:15 AM »
Ultimately, not knowing each other's salary contributes to information asymmetry between employees and employers that keeps wages down.

I think that's the sense I've been getting. I also think it can create an environment for discrimination.

Deimyts

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2013, 11:00:51 AM »
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Ultimately, not knowing each other's salary contributes to information asymmetry between employees and employers that keeps wages down.

I think that's the sense I've been getting. I also think it can create an environment for discrimination.

Absolutely. If salary discrepancies are making employees uncomfortable, the problem isn't solved by hiding the information.
You can fix unfair disparities, provide an actual productivity-based path to higher wages, and be candid about employee performance.

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Because negotiation isn't a universal skill, some people are better at it than others, and it may have NOTHING to do with their fitness for the job and value to the company. And what does "okay with an offer" even mean...

And therefore, having the information available puts more power into the hands of the employees. Which is a good thing, as employees so rarely have any bargaining power.

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2013, 12:29:25 PM »
It turned out that even though we all had almost identical skills and similar years of experience, everyone was making within a few bucks of each other but the difference was just in how much we each negotiated.  Very eye opening and totally unfair.
How's that unfair? Presumably if you weren't okay with the first offer you would say something about it and the company would return with a higher one.

Because negotiation isn't a universal skill, some people are better at it than others, and it may have NOTHING to do with their fitness for the job and value to the company. And what does "okay with an offer" even mean. Maybe it's your only offer and while you might like or think you deserve a higher salary, you don't want to risk losing the offer entirely, and being a mustachian you know you can get by quite happily on what you are offered. Or  maybe, because there is so much secrecy about wages, you don't even KNOW what fair market value is for your skills and time. Less likely with Glassdoor, etc, but if we take this "don't talk about money" convention to the extreme, that would be the case.

That's right.  In this particular group we had a wonderful case study because there were only 8 of us and we were very similar.  All of us in our mid-20's, most with the exact same degree and very similar years of experience.  It turned out that the main difference among us was personality.  The two people in the group whose attitudes were 'I'm just lucky to have landed this job in this amazing company' were earning a few dollars an hour less than the rest of us.  The really good-looking and outgoing Swede was earning the most out of everyone.  I was the only woman who was making as much as the men and only because my husband was full-time at this company and knew all about how contractors could negotiate their hourly rates.  So it did strike me as unfair and I felt badly for some of my coworkers. 

grantmeaname

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2013, 12:43:45 PM »
But everyone working for the company is working for a value that they assented to. Say the Swede makes $17 and the introvert makes $15. The thankful introvert consented to work for her salary just like the Swede consented to work for his. I don't see why they axiomatically should all be paid the same - there's nothing fair about that, to me.

I guess what I'm getting at is that 'fair' is a matter of opinion. The process at which the salaries were arrived at was fair, so I feel the results are fair.

galliver

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2013, 01:22:22 PM »
But everyone working for the company is working for a value that they assented to. Say the Swede makes $17 and the introvert makes $15. The thankful introvert consented to work for her salary just like the Swede consented to work for his. I don't see why they axiomatically should all be paid the same - there's nothing fair about that, to me.

I guess what I'm getting at is that 'fair' is a matter of opinion. The process at which the salaries were arrived at was fair, so I feel the results are fair.

Would it be fair to offer someone pretty a bigger paycheck because you expect them to be more enjoyable to have around? Or give someone who brought in cookies weekly a bigger raise (for the value they provide to the company!) If both parties agree to it, it's fair, right? And no one else has to know! It's illegal to base someone's pay on factors such as age, race, or sex...but it happens anyway and if the numbers are secret, no one ever finds out! Not to mention, statistically, women and minorites are often less sure of their belonging in the desirable field or job if it is dominated by e.g. white men and may accept lower pay in negotiations. This is slowly changing, but for now it's a concern.

What's wrong with a large enough business or organization having a transparent, fixed pay scale for incoming workers at every rank, and then a transparent system of bonuses for seniority and (quantifiable, relevant) merit? Then if two workers are "the same" but earning different amounts, it's fairly easy to go back and say, "well, that person completed 10 projects last year and I only did 7. I guess they deserved it then. I should be more efficient and get more projects done!" (Yes, this assumes projects are interchangeable. Substitute billable hours, official commendations for going "above and beyond" etc) I realize this would be a complex system for a large organization. I'd like to introduce you to this device, I call it a 'computer'...

Samsam

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2013, 02:30:31 PM »
What's wrong with a large enough business or organization having a transparent, fixed pay scale for incoming workers at every rank, and then a transparent system of bonuses for seniority and (quantifiable, relevant) merit? Then if two workers are "the same" but earning different amounts, it's fairly easy to go back and say, "well, that person completed 10 projects last year and I only did 7. I guess they deserved it then. I should be more efficient and get more projects done!"

This is how my company works to some degree...but IRL, come review time, people are so caught up on their effort rather than actual metrics. "But I tried so hard! Why didn't I get a raise???"  It also is a very complex system too.  What about the guy that works 2 hrs and gets 2 projects done and the other works 40 hrs but only gets 1 project done.  How hard were the projects?  What would it have been like had they switched?  Maybe the most efficient guy is also dicking around the office the entire time (lol...).   I do not envy the managers that have to somewhat "grade" everyone at the end of the year.

Something else to consider (actually happening where I work): super efficient guy gets the X% bonus at the end of the year (because he went beyond his metrics), everyone else gets X-1% or X-2% bonus or no bonus.  It puts a big target on that guy's back because he is "making everyone else look bad" (at least that is how the others see it).  I think it takes away from teamwork within the group.  But it does work both ways; super efficient guy probably don't want to know that the most useless person on his team is getting a raise too (or even still working there...). 

It is really hard for people to put aside their animosity towards others when it comes to money.  I find that business model fair...just not to be transparent I guess?  That all relies on people not talking then, which I guess in my case I would prefer it. 

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2013, 03:11:15 PM »
This is how my company works to some degree...but IRL, come review time, people are so caught up on their effort rather than actual metrics. "But I tried so hard! Why didn't I get a raise???"

I sincerely feel sorry for your generation. You were raised on the notion that trying was the same as succeeding. Everyone got a participation trophy and keeping score would only make someone feel bad.

Now the Millennials are getting a face full of reality. The bank doesn't care if you tried to pay your student loan, but just couldn't because a new tattoo was cooler. Your boss doesn't care if you tried to do a project, but you just weren't that into it so it didn't get done.

I have hired and fired many of your generation and can only hope that with experience and honest assessment by supervisors, they understand the need for actual competency and achievement.

grantmeaname

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2013, 03:14:34 PM »
And no one else has to know! It's illegal to base someone's pay on factors such as age, race, or sex...but it happens anyway and if the numbers are secret, no one ever finds out!
I'm arguing for reducing the information asymmetries that allow this to happen, not increasing them.

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What's wrong with a large enough business or organization having a transparent, fixed pay scale for incoming workers at every rank, and then a transparent system of bonuses for seniority and (quantifiable, relevant) merit? Then if two workers are "the same" but earning different amounts, it's fairly easy to go back and say, "well, that person completed 10 projects last year and I only did 7. I guess they deserved it then. I should be more efficient and get more projects done!" (Yes, this assumes projects are interchangeable. Substitute billable hours, official commendations for going "above and beyond" etc) I realize this would be a complex system for a large organization. I'd like to introduce you to this device, I call it a 'computer'...
Workers are effective when they can use their judgment, and the more you take opportunities for judgment away the less effective and efficient the company will be in response to the rapidly changing marketplace. Beyond that, I think you'd find that the input variables for the system could be biased, that some of the input variables could be extremely difficult to operationalize, and that some roles just aren't easily comparable. In the end all you'd have is less discretion. You could increase transparency without all those changes, the way I see it...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 03:32:16 PM by grantmeaname »

grantmeaname

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2013, 03:26:44 PM »
I sincerely feel sorry for your generation.
I'm getting pretty well sick of your ridiculous strawman arguments against anyone younger or older than you. What is it with the constant need to disparage anyone who isn't exactly 44 years old?

Samsam

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2013, 03:39:31 PM »
This is how my company works to some degree...but IRL, come review time, people are so caught up on their effort rather than actual metrics. "But I tried so hard! Why didn't I get a raise???"

I sincerely feel sorry for your generation. You were raised on the notion that trying was the same as succeeding. Everyone got a participation trophy and keeping score would only make someone feel bad.

Now the Millennials are getting a face full of reality. The bank doesn't care if you tried to pay your student loan, but just couldn't because a new tattoo was cooler. Your boss doesn't care if you tried to do a project, but you just weren't that into it so it didn't get done.

I have hired and fired many of your generation and can only hope that with experience and honest assessment by supervisors, they understand the need for actual competency and achievement.

I try to tell my peers this all the time.  This also leads into one of my favorite posters:


mpbaker22

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2013, 04:16:24 PM »
I sincerely feel sorry for your generation.
I'm getting pretty well sick of your ridiculous strawman arguments against anyone younger or older than you. What is it with the constant need to disparage anyone who isn't exactly 44 years old?

Well played ... Especially since she pretty much responded in a condescending way that mostly supported what you said, but I don' think she even realizes what you actually said.

I find the whole subject here fascinating because as the youngest person in the office I do the least amount of time actually working.  My workload is smaller and I have requested more on several occasions, but some things are just because I'm more efficient, and that might be due to being younger.  For example, a guy retired and his workload was split in 3 and given out.  I realized my part could be entirely automated, and I've done that, so I effectively received 0 extra work after setting up the automation.

Other little tricks add up to.  I can type 80+ wpm (faster than I can usually think and some of my posts show it).  I know most of the firefox/Excel/Outlook shortcuts, etc.  It all ads up to completing minute tasks far faster than everyone else.

Just my example of how comparing actual time spent working to salaries isn't always the best, though I also don't think I deserve my salary relative to the grand economic situation.

DocCyane

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2013, 04:20:06 PM »
I sincerely feel sorry for your generation.
I'm getting pretty well sick of your ridiculous strawman arguments against anyone younger or older than you. What is it with the constant need to disparage anyone who isn't exactly 44 years old?

I consider it more an observation than a straw argument.

Roses

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2013, 11:45:56 PM »
But everyone working for the company is working for a value that they assented to. Say the Swede makes $17 and the introvert makes $15. The thankful introvert consented to work for her salary just like the Swede consented to work for his. I don't see why they axiomatically should all be paid the same - there's nothing fair about that, to me.

I guess what I'm getting at is that 'fair' is a matter of opinion. The process at which the salaries were arrived at was fair, so I feel the results are fair.

Well, I guess 'fair' is a matter of opinion.  If the recruiting company makes more money off of placing someone for less pay just because they felt too intimidated to negotiate but then gave a raise to those who asked for it, is that fair?  Not in my opinion :)  It means that people doing the same job and meeting the same deadlines are compensated based on an ability or willingness to negotiate.  It is well known that women and minorities negotiate less often and with less success rates (maybe because they feel somewhat out of place or insecure?  Maybe they aren't taken as seriously?  I don't know, those are just my guesses).  So, no, I don't think it's fair, but I realize that's just the way it is for now.

Also, inequalities in the workplace create a bad working environment for everyone, not just the low earners. 

Vitai Slade

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2013, 04:01:59 AM »
I sincerely feel sorry for your generation.
I'm getting pretty well sick of your ridiculous strawman arguments against anyone younger or older than you. What is it with the constant need to disparage anyone who isn't exactly 44 years old?

I agree with this.

I'd say a certain someone is resentful against the older generation and envious of the younger ones.

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2013, 06:19:21 AM »
I find the whole subject here fascinating because as the youngest person in the office I do the least amount of time actually working.  My workload is smaller and I have requested more on several occasions, but some things are just because I'm more efficient, and that might be due to being younger.  For example, a guy retired and his workload was split in 3 and given out.  I realized my part could be entirely automated, and I've done that, so I effectively received 0 extra work after setting up the automation.

Other little tricks add up to.  I can type 80+ wpm (faster than I can usually think and some of my posts show it).  I know most of the firefox/Excel/Outlook shortcuts, etc.  It all ads up to completing minute tasks far faster than everyone else.

Just my example of how comparing actual time spent working to salaries isn't always the best, though I also don't think I deserve my salary relative to the grand economic situation.

I see this at my workplace too. Just by having basic writing and computer skills, it takes me half the time to do double the work compared to the senior members of my team. Unfortunately they are starting to figure this out and I'm getting more and more requests to "google" things for them or "tighten up the flow of this powerpoint, " and what's the big deal because I can do it so fast, right? (Ugh.) So yeah, time spent working =/= value added is undisputed. But where does salary come into this scenario?

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2013, 07:04:13 AM »
I find the whole subject here fascinating because as the youngest person in the office I do the least amount of time actually working.  My workload is smaller and I have requested more on several occasions, but some things are just because I'm more efficient, and that might be due to being younger.  For example, a guy retired and his workload was split in 3 and given out.  I realized my part could be entirely automated, and I've done that, so I effectively received 0 extra work after setting up the automation.

Other little tricks add up to.  I can type 80+ wpm (faster than I can usually think and some of my posts show it).  I know most of the firefox/Excel/Outlook shortcuts, etc.  It all ads up to completing minute tasks far faster than everyone else.

Just my example of how comparing actual time spent working to salaries isn't always the best, though I also don't think I deserve my salary relative to the grand economic situation.

I see this at my workplace too. Just by having basic writing and computer skills, it takes me half the time to do double the work compared to the senior members of my team. Unfortunately they are starting to figure this out and I'm getting more and more requests to "google" things for them or "tighten up the flow of this powerpoint, " and what's the big deal because I can do it so fast, right? (Ugh.) So yeah, time spent working =/= value added is undisputed. But where does salary come into this scenario?

Don't be hating.  Just teach everyone how to use foxfire (I had an actual request where someone thought it was foxfire and wanted to learn something about it).

Osprey

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Re: Why is it rude to talk about money?
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2013, 10:45:23 AM »
Don't be hating.  Just teach everyone how to use foxfire (I had an actual request where someone thought it was foxfire and wanted to learn something about it).

Well. At least they wanted to learn foxfire in the first place! :p
It is also a matter of the amount of time it takes for people to type, or to navigate a program. I will try to stick to the "teach a man to fish" approach!