Author Topic: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?  (Read 1273 times)

FreshlyFIREd

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This is not a political thread - just observations in a forum with people that understand money a little more than most. But how is it that Kavanaugh has less net worth than most people starting out in this forum? Why does Nikki Haley have debt of more than $1mm?

How is it that a supreme court judge does not have the financial wherewithal and discipline to control his spending? How can he have credit card debt that is greater than his yearly income? How is it that his debt just disappeared?

People in this forum understand money. Anybody have explanations for this?

BookLoverL

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 11:11:53 AM »
This kind of thing worries me in politicians. If they can't spend their own money at least wisely enough to not be deep in debt, how can they spend the tax money wisely? Plus, surely them being in debt puts them at risk of having to compromise their political principles because of threats from one of their creditors.

I don't have an explanation for it, though.

COEE

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2018, 12:04:15 PM »
Debt does not equal net worth.

Very possible that they are leveraging debt. It's hard to know without seeing their books.

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Ocinfo

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2018, 12:16:12 PM »
Putting aside the general display of incompetence that many politicians demonstrate, they do tend to be highly educated professionals (lawyer, doctor, MBA, some engineers). They are typically being paid lower salaries in public life than they could earn in private business but are in an environment where they are often expected (real or perceived) to have money. Couple that with the expectation of eventually leaving public life and getting a huge salary and it really doesn’t seem too crazy to have several hundred thousands of debt. For example Nikki Haley will likely get a very well paid job for the next 2 years and maybe write a book that’ll likely be enough to pay her debt. Now, she probably won’t pay the debt back with the funds because she’ll get back into politics and set herself up for an even bigger book deal, etc...it’s a never ending deferral of debt just like how our government has been operating.


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ROF Expat

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2018, 12:24:03 PM »
If you hang out with fancy people doing fancy things you spend fancy levels of money. If you don't have fancy levels of money you use credit.

This. 

When you graduate from elite prep schools, Universities, and Law schools and become a high powered lawyer, there are high social expectations about where you'll live, what you'll drive, what clubs you'll join, where you'll send your children to school, and where you'll go out to eat and socialize.  Becoming a high level politician or a Federal Judge often means being in those same social circles and having those same social expectations, but without the major salary.  A high powered federal judge or congressman earns around 180,000 per year.  That's a fine salary, but it doesn't buy you a high end lifestyle in the Washington DC area.  Politicians who are living large aren't doing it on their federal salaries.  They either had money before they became politicians or they do it with debt.  Sometimes, of course, they do it by illegal means. 



 

jlcnuke

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2018, 12:27:15 PM »
This is not a political thread - just observations in a forum with people that understand money a little more than most. But how is it that Kavanaugh has less net worth than most people starting out in this forum? Why does Nikki Haley have debt of more than $1mm?

How is it that a supreme court judge does not have the financial wherewithal and discipline to control his spending? How can he have credit card debt that is greater than his yearly income? How is it that his debt just disappeared?

People in this forum understand money. Anybody have explanations for this?

Debt isn't bad.

Kavanaugh's net worth of over $500k is actually plenty for a person in his position. He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.

How did his "debt just disappear" is widespread public knowledge, the massive "spending" that gave the huge balance was group purchases and he was reimbursed for by the others, only a relatively small portion coming from him, which he readily afforded with his significant salary.

Nikki Haley's "debt of over $1mm" was an investment property, she has since sold it for $1.2mm. She held the property for less than 2 years and made a 20% return.. that's not poor fiscal practices.

In short, the examples you give mention don't show irresponsible financial actions, just financial actions that you didn't understand.

afox

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2018, 12:46:28 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

jlcnuke

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2018, 12:52:52 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

Well, with the pension you're thinking of he actually needs 80 to be the sum of his age AND years of service... total, not just on the Supreme Court. As he's been a Federal judge for the last 12 years, he'll get the full pension with just another ~8 years on the bench.... even if he retired tomorrow, however, he'd be getting a good pension though.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2018, 12:54:52 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

That article says that age plus years of service to the supreme court must equal 80 to get lifetime full pension. He could retire at 67 to meet those standards

jlcnuke

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 12:59:28 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

That article says that age plus years of service to the supreme court must equal 80 to get lifetime full pension. He could retire at 67 to meet those standards
Yes, because the article covers every part of the relevant Federal law, it's definitely not some quick donate that doesn't account for cases of judges with both Federal and public experience etc.. Oh wait, it doesn't.. it is just a simplified explanation that doesn't cover every scenario. Feel free to read the law (which, FYI, doesn't make any distinction between which court me they serve on...

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GuitarStv

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 01:16:48 PM »
If you're a public figure debt is really little concern.  You can always take bribes if you get into trouble.

Eric

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2018, 01:20:40 PM »
Politicians are people too.  No, really!  And as such, they tend to fall along the same bell curve as the population as a whole.  Some are good with money.   Some are bad with money.  Most are probably somewhere in between.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2018, 01:24:35 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

That article says that age plus years of service to the supreme court must equal 80 to get lifetime full pension. He could retire at 67 to meet those standards
Yes, because the article covers every part of the relevant Federal law, it's definitely not some quick donate that doesn't account for cases of judges with both Federal and public experience etc.. Oh wait, it doesn't.. it is just a simplified explanation that doesn't cover every scenario. Feel free to read the law (which, FYI, doesn't make any distinction between which court me they serve on...

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Not sure where the hostility/snark comes from but here's another 10 second google search that says age 68 for full pension for this dude. On a trivial topic, i say that my estimate was good enough. Meaning, even if he's not mustachian (not that anyone needs to be...we're the weird ones, remember?) he can retire, with lots of guaranteed income, at a relatively normal age.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/brett-kavanaugh-may-become-the-poorest-supreme-court-justice-2018-07-10

Not too shabby for old Kav.

afox

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2018, 01:46:25 PM »
IMO, working till 67 is not exactly ideal even if it is ordinary, kavanaugh's life expectancy is 82. 


jlcnuke

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2018, 01:57:37 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

That article says that age plus years of service to the supreme court must equal 80 to get lifetime full pension. He could retire at 67 to meet those standards
Yes, because the article covers every part of the relevant Federal law, it's definitely not some quick donate that doesn't account for cases of judges with both Federal and public experience etc.. Oh wait, it doesn't.. it is just a simplified explanation that doesn't cover every scenario. Feel free to read the law (which, FYI, doesn't make any distinction between which court me they serve on...

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Not sure where the hostility/snark comes from but here's another 10 second google search that says age 68 for full pension for this dude. On a trivial topic, i say that my estimate was good enough. Meaning, even if he's not mustachian (not that anyone needs to be...we're the weird ones, remember?) he can retire, with lots of guaranteed income, at a relatively normal age.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/brett-kavanaugh-may-become-the-poorest-supreme-court-justice-2018-07-10

Not too shabby for old Kav.

Well, the "snark" came from being told I'm "wrong" effectively in afox's post, followed by you not being right because you also decided not to evaluate the source of your information, and I'm in a bad mood from my commute. As such, I apologize for my tone.

Personally, I like to propagate facts. So, when I said he was going to get a nice, guaranteed pension, I wasn't lying or incorrect because I made sure I used decent sources, knowledge, and understanding (namely the law itself and my limited education on legal matters). Kavanaugh, already having served for 10 years on the federal bench, has a guaranteed pension.  For future reference, the law that determines when he can retire is 28 USC 371. It does not distinguish between periods of service in a particular job, but for any "justice (SCOTUS) or judge of United States). He's currently eligible (with 13 years of service, having been on the federal bench since 2006), for full retirement at age 67. In two years, he'll be eligible for full retirement at age 65 since he'll have 15 years of service.

I'm honestly completely unaware at how the latest "article" linked came up with their numbers as they're completely wrong; neither another 15 years nor age 68 equate to any "minimum" requirement for him to get his full salary per the law, even if you try to read the law and think the time of service restarted when he went from being a circuit judge to a justice.

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2018, 02:20:44 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

That article says that age plus years of service to the supreme court must equal 80 to get lifetime full pension. He could retire at 67 to meet those standards
Yes, because the article covers every part of the relevant Federal law, it's definitely not some quick donate that doesn't account for cases of judges with both Federal and public experience etc.. Oh wait, it doesn't.. it is just a simplified explanation that doesn't cover every scenario. Feel free to read the law (which, FYI, doesn't make any distinction between which court me they serve on...

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Tapatalk

Not sure where the hostility/snark comes from but here's another 10 second google search that says age 68 for full pension for this dude. On a trivial topic, i say that my estimate was good enough. Meaning, even if he's not mustachian (not that anyone needs to be...we're the weird ones, remember?) he can retire, with lots of guaranteed income, at a relatively normal age.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/brett-kavanaugh-may-become-the-poorest-supreme-court-justice-2018-07-10

Not too shabby for old Kav.

Well, the "snark" came from being told I'm "wrong" effectively in afox's post, followed by you not being right because you also decided not to evaluate the source of your information, and I'm in a bad mood from my commute. As such, I apologize for my tone.

Personally, I like to propagate facts. So, when I said he was going to get a nice, guaranteed pension, I wasn't lying or incorrect because I made sure I used decent sources, knowledge, and understanding (namely the law itself and my limited education on legal matters). Kavanaugh, already having served for 10 years on the federal bench, has a guaranteed pension.  For future reference, the law that determines when he can retire is 28 USC 371. It does not distinguish between periods of service in a particular job, but for any "justice (SCOTUS) or judge of United States). He's currently eligible (with 13 years of service, having been on the federal bench since 2006), for full retirement at age 67. In two years, he'll be eligible for full retirement at age 65 since he'll have 15 years of service.

I'm honestly completely unaware at how the latest "article" linked came up with their numbers as they're completely wrong; neither another 15 years nor age 68 equate to any "minimum" requirement for him to get his full salary per the law, even if you try to read the law and think the time of service restarted when he went from being a circuit judge to a justice.

Fair enough. And thanks for the detail. I'll still say that the age at which he can collect a full pension is trivial, and that while we can all clutch our pearls at his spending, I'm on the side with the folks that say he'll be fine financially, the same side it seems you are on as well.

jlcnuke

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2018, 02:23:33 PM »
Yep we definitely agree there :)

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swampwiz

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2018, 06:29:10 PM »
This is not a political thread - just observations in a forum with people that understand money a little more than most. But how is it that Kavanaugh has less net worth than most people starting out in this forum? Why does Nikki Haley have debt of more than $1mm?

How is it that a supreme court judge does not have the financial wherewithal and discipline to control his spending? How can he have credit card debt that is greater than his yearly income? How is it that his debt just disappeared?

People in this forum understand money. Anybody have explanations for this?

I guess all those keggers kosts a lot of money!

swampwiz

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Re: Why is it And how is it that our politicians are sooooo in debt?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2018, 06:30:49 PM »
He's got a guaranteed, significant, pension and half a million dollars net worth with decades of working ahead of him. It is "Mustachian"? Heck no. Is it fiscally irresponsible? Nah.


not quite: https://www.thoughtco.com/us-supreme-court-retirement-benefits-3322414

Kavanaugh is 53 so he's got to be on the supreme court for 27 years to get that full pension!!!  Maybe the supreme court justice pension economics needs to change so that there can be more turnover among justices.

In general, govt employees (which includes politicians) do not receive high salaries.

That article says that age plus years of service to the supreme court must equal 80 to get lifetime full pension. He could retire at 67 to meet those standards

A power-mad man like him is going to go out the Supreme Court door in a box.